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How To Finally Stop Procrastinating: Oliver Burkeman | E125
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This weeks episode entitled 'How To Finally Stop Procrastinating: Oliver Burkeman' topics: 00:00 Intro 01:01 Why do you write about happiness? 04:11 Happiness and meaning 11:25 Embracing our limits 18:13 Why do we put our happiness on the future? 20:23 Pursuit of efficiency 24:11 Living up to your external reputation 27:45 Procrastination 33:57 How to prioritise 41:20 The water melon problem 48:55 Why self analysis is so important 50:53 Why do we purse ambition over happiness 57:15 We’re addicted to the speed of life 01:04:50 Embracing small changes 01:08:10 Embracing our irrelevance 01:14:20 A question from your book 01:16:04 The last guest question Listen on: Apple podcast - https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/the-diary-of-a-ceo-by-steven-bartlett/id1291423644 Spotify - https://open.spotify.com/show/7iQXmUT7XGuZSzAMjoNWlX FOLLOW ► Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/steven/ Twitter: https://twitter.com/SteveBartlettSC Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/steven-bartlett-56986834/ Sponsors: Huel - https://my.huel.com/Steven Myenergi - https://bit.ly/3oeWGnl
Segments Timeline
The Importance of Saying No
Oliver Burkeman discusses the challenge of saying no, emphasizing that it's not just about rejecting unwanted tasks but also about prioritizing what truly matters. He highlights the need to confront our limitations and the discomfort that comes with it, suggesting that slowing down can lead to more meaningful actions.
"are you doing a few things every day that your ancestors would have done what 250 000 years ago oliver berkman he's a journalist a writer and one of the greatest thinkers i've had the pleasure of sitt..."
Exploring Happiness and Anxiety
Burkeman reflects on his journey as a journalist and his fascination with deep topics like happiness and anxiety. He shares how his personal struggles with these themes have shaped his writing, revealing that those who write about happiness often do so from a place of seeking answers for themselves.
"as a journalist um i was quite surprised to read some of the articles you'd written and the subject matter wasn't necessarily like always about the news or what's going on or it wasn't gossipy it was ..."
The Antidote to Positive Thinking
In discussing his book 'The Antidote', Burkeman critiques the notion of positive thinking. He argues that true resilience comes from embracing negative emotions and uncertainties rather than avoiding them, suggesting that this approach can lead to a more authentic and fulfilling life.
"to sort of productivity and time management and all those topics it's like maybe if i could find the system that would put me in total control of my time then maybe i wouldn't need to feel worried abo..."
Misconceptions About Happiness
Burkeman addresses common misconceptions about happiness, particularly the idea that pursuing happiness directly will lead to it. He explains that happiness often arises as a byproduct of engaging in meaningful activities, rather than being the primary goal of life.
"things it's actually a much more resilient way to um to be in the world i think plus it i guess it's kind of it's the contribution that i can make to the world of self-help and things like that is to ..."
Finding Meaning in Life
The conversation shifts to the concept of meaning in life. Burkeman shares insights on how individuals can discern whether their actions are enlarging or diminishing their sense of self, emphasizing the importance of engaging in activities that contribute to personal growth.
"there's something amiss with this notion right happiness is the kind of thing that seems to arise as a byproduct of certain kinds of meaningful activity but if you make it the sort of goal of your lif..."
The Human Connection
Burkeman discusses the significance of human connection and collaboration, drawing parallels between modern life and ancestral practices. He highlights how helping others and engaging in community can fulfill our innate human needs, which are often overlooked in today's fast-paced world.
"what are those what have you come to learn are the meaningful activities that end up creating the byproduct of happiness i mean it's the question and i don't think i've like come to the final answer i..."
Returning to Our Roots
The dialogue continues with Burkeman reflecting on the importance of reconnecting with fundamental human activities that our ancestors engaged in. He suggests that embracing these practices can lead to a simpler, more fulfilling life, countering the complexities introduced by modern society.
"about that this is a good use of this day of your very limited time on the planet one of the things that i view that seems to be pretty correct um when i'm trying to figure out what is meaningful it m..."
The Challenge of Digital Life
Burkeman critiques the digital age, noting how many people spend their days manipulating symbols rather than engaging in physical, meaningful actions. He emphasizes the need to focus on tangible tasks that provide a sense of accomplishment and connection to reality.
"yeah yeah i've heard yeah that's such a good point i've heard somebody express this as like you should ask are you doing a few things every day that your ancestors would have done what 250 000 years a..."
Embracing Our Limits
In this segment, Burkeman introduces the concept of embracing our limits as a way to navigate life more effectively. He discusses the finite nature of our time and the importance of accepting our vulnerabilities, suggesting that this acceptance can lead to a more relaxed and fulfilling approach to life.
"hands that i did today it's very easy to get lost in that in that world that doesn't have like hard edges that doesn't have a physicality in it and it's very alluring because it feels kind of you feel..."
The Myth of Limitless Productivity
Burkeman critiques the societal obsession with efficiency and the pursuit of limitless productivity. He argues that this mindset leads to stress and anxiety, as individuals attempt to meet every expectation, ultimately neglecting what truly matters in life.
"every to every moment it's increasingly impossible to have sort of complete knowledge about anything that you're doing or any sphere in which you're acting and then you know relationships just inheren..."
Sacrifices for Meaningful Living
In this segment, Burkeman highlights the importance of making sacrifices to focus on what truly matters. He explains that great innovators and entrepreneurs understood the need to prioritize their time, accepting that they cannot do everything.
"right that's trying to become limitless um and we there are lots of other examples of this where i think what we're really doing is is just trying to avoid feeling our finitude and some people want to..."
The Illusion of Immortality
Burkeman explores the human tendency to live as if we are immortal, often deferring happiness to the future. He discusses how this mindset drains present fulfillment and leads to a cycle of avoidance regarding our mortality.
"great sort of historical figures like all these people they didn't they did things that people thought were previously thought were impossible yeah but they didn't um they very very deliberately under..."
The 'When I Finally' Mindset
Burkeman introduces the 'when I finally' mindset, where individuals postpone their happiness and fulfillment to a future moment. He warns that this approach detracts from the present and perpetuates a cycle of avoidance.
"look at a lot of the decisions i make you would assert that i'm living like i think i'm going to live forever right because my my misprioritization of things that actually clearly matter more and this..."
The Cost of Deferred Happiness
In this segment, Burkeman discusses the consequences of deferring happiness and fulfillment. He references a quote from John Maynard Keynes, illustrating how this mindset leads to a lack of appreciation for life in the present.
"out of life in the present but it serves again it serves this purpose of avoidance right because if you're always storing up fulfillment for the future you don't have to acknowledge the fact that like..."
Striving for Goals vs. Present Value
Burkeman emphasizes the importance of balancing goal-setting with valuing the present. He argues that while it's essential to have ambitions, one should not invest all their worth in future outcomes, as this can lead to burnout and dissatisfaction.
"kind of useful to be putting things off because it it it helps this act of denial that we're all engaged in it also means that we continue as humans to struggle forward right we continue to take on st..."
The Efficiency Trap
Burkeman explains the efficiency trap, where the pursuit of productivity leads to an overwhelming influx of tasks. He illustrates this with the example of striving for inbox zero, which can paradoxically increase stress and workload.
"it's not about stopping trying to achieve things in the future it's about it's about not investing the whole value of what you're doing in those in those future outcomes you can't build anything a rel..."
The Burden of Reputation
In this segment, Burkeman reflects on how personal reputation can drive individuals to overcommit and neglect self-care. He shares his own experiences of feeling overwhelmed by expectations and the need to maintain a productive image.
"to fill the excess capacity and this is parkinson's law and a whole lot of other kind of it goes by a whole lot of names but it's this idea that um yeah if you if all you do is make yourself more effi..."
Self-Worth and Accomplishment
Burkeman discusses the connection between self-worth and productivity, highlighting how many people feel compelled to achieve more to justify their existence. He encourages listeners to recognize that their value is not solely tied to their accomplishments.
"didn't make me less busy yeah i think i have that a bit with my pa at the moment she i've got a reputation with her being able to do 50 meetings a day right so my calendar is now 50 meetings a day and..."
Finding Freedom in Limitations
Burkeman concludes by offering a liberating perspective on our limitations. He suggests that acknowledging our finite nature can relieve pressure and allow us to focus on what truly matters, leading to a more fulfilling life.
"interested to know if this resonates with you for me when i've got into that kind of groove that place where you're sort of pursuing efficiency at the expense of everything else for me anyway part of ..."
The Pressure of Perfection
Oliver Burkeman discusses the societal pressure to maximize every moment and how it can lead to feelings of inadequacy. He reflects on the unrealistic expectations tied to efficiency and self-worth, sharing his personal struggles with living up to an external reputation of productivity. This segment highlights the importance of recognizing our limits and focusing on what truly matters.
"of every moment and go base jumping every weekend or something otherwise have you really lived it's much more like okay oh great the pressure's off i can't do an impossible amount i can only do a few ..."
The Burden of Reputation
In this segment, Burkeman reveals how his public persona affects his self-perception and productivity. He candidly shares feelings of being a 'fraud' when he doesn't meet the high expectations set by others. This discussion delves into the psychological impact of maintaining a reputation and the universal struggle many face with self-worth and achievement.
"i some days i do like a lot of a lot of days i do way less than the people around me right but i have this so but i do have those moments now where if i have like an unproductive day or i've like slep..."
The Myth of the Perfect Morning Routine
Burkeman addresses the unrealistic expectations surrounding morning routines and productivity. He humorously contrasts the idealized versions of success with his own imperfect reality, emphasizing that despite not adhering to a perfect routine, he has still achieved his goals. This segment challenges the notion that perfection is necessary for success.
"bigger your audience the more you you can fall into thinking that like there are hundreds and hundreds of thousands of people who who demand it but of course that also gives you the power to do someth..."
Understanding Procrastination
In this insightful discussion, Burkeman explores the reasons behind procrastination, including fear of failure and the desire to avoid confronting limitations. He argues that procrastination often stems from a reluctance to face the imperfections inherent in bringing ideas to life. This segment offers a deeper understanding of procrastination as a common human experience.
"up is a really sloppy mess i'm trying to improve i bring people here that talk about morning routines it still doesn't seem to work but um but despite of that yeah i'm happy my businesses have gone we..."
Embracing Imperfection
Burkeman emphasizes the inevitability of imperfection in creative endeavors and personal projects. He encourages listeners to accept that bringing anything into the world will not align perfectly with their expectations. This segment advocates for moving forward despite imperfections, highlighting that everyone shares this experience.
"into the world involves a confrontation with your limitations maybe you're not going to have the talent for it maybe it's not going to be well received maybe it's going to be too complicated if i'm tr..."
The Struggle for Control
In this segment, Burkeman discusses the temptation to manage every aspect of life as a form of procrastination. He shares his personal battle with the urge to organize and control tasks instead of focusing on what truly matters. This reflection sheds light on the common distractions that prevent progress and the importance of prioritizing meaningful work.
"having written a chapter in your book called becoming a better procrastinator do you still procrastinate yes um i've always i always feel like my my point about that i get asked this question and i'm ..."
Prioritizing What Matters
Burkeman introduces the concept of avoiding 'middling priorities' to focus on what truly matters in life. He shares a strategy attributed to Warren Buffett about prioritizing top goals and avoiding distractions from less important tasks. This segment emphasizes the value of saying no to things that do not align with one's core objectives.
"things but uh but yeah work in progress for sure that's a very honest answer and i'm glad to hear that you and me both quick one for many years people have been asking for a coffee flavored huel and q..."
Less is More
In this concluding segment, Burkeman reflects on the principle of 'less is more' in achieving success. He discusses the benefits of focusing on fewer tasks to gain depth and meaning in life. This segment reinforces the idea that quality over quantity leads to greater fulfillment and accomplishment.
"about them right they belong in this middle zone whether or not that exercise is a useful exercise the the principle here i think is that you have to sort of be especially wary of of claims on your at..."
The Juggling Act of Life
In this segment, Burkeman uses the metaphor of juggling to illustrate the limitations of human capacity for managing multiple commitments. He discusses the idea that every new opportunity comes at the expense of others, emphasizing the need to consciously choose what to focus on in life. This reflection encourages listeners to recognize their limits and make intentional choices.
"um because you make most of them wait you focus on one you do it and then it's finished and then you bring the next one in and you do that um it's so tempting to sort of dissipate your energies becaus..."
The Value of Scarcity
Burkeman explores the philosophical implications of scarcity in life, arguing that limitations give meaning to our choices. He reflects on how the finite nature of time and opportunities enhances the value of our experiences. This segment invites listeners to embrace the idea that acknowledging our limitations can lead to a more fulfilling life.
"doing the thing as if you know which is basically the premise of your book that like as if my time was unlimited yeah but yeah you know it's like i was i remember reading about this thing which has we..."
Attention Economy and Distraction
Burkeman discusses the challenges of maintaining focus in today's distraction-heavy environment. He highlights the importance of being conscious of where we direct our attention and the costs associated with distractions. This segment emphasizes the need for intentionality in our choices to ensure that we are living a life aligned with our values.
"relationship and you have to realize that if you want to be in a faithful relationship it comes at the cost of something and um right no and i think that you know we yes we spend so much effort trying..."
The Watermelon Problem
In this engaging segment, Burkeman recounts the viral 'watermelon problem' experiment, where rubber bands are added to a watermelon until it explodes. He uses this example to illustrate how our attention can be easily hijacked in the modern world. This discussion serves as a reminder of the importance of being mindful about how we spend our time and what we choose to focus on.
"write about watermelons in your book oh yeah chapter five is about the watermelon problem the famous buzzfeed watermelon this was like what five years ago now two journalists from buzzfeed put rubber ..."
Embracing Discomfort
Burkeman shares practical strategies for reducing distractions and embracing the discomfort that comes with focusing on meaningful tasks. He argues that discomfort is a natural part of growth and that we should expect it when engaging in challenging activities. This segment encourages listeners to cultivate resilience and a willingness to face discomfort in pursuit of their goals.
"you found any practical ways to make yourself less distracted by such compelling videos there's really two parts to this i think one is especially in the modern era right one is the source of the dist..."
Redefining Passion
In this thought-provoking segment, Burkeman challenges the conventional notion of 'finding your passion.' He suggests that passion is not a singular destination but rather a multifaceted experience. This perspective encourages listeners to liberate themselves from societal pressures and embrace the complexity of their interests and desires.
"superpower yeah and obviously there's a lot of social narratives that kind of point to it as being a failure like you're right even the phrase writer's block the word block doesn't feel like very natu..."
Redefining Passion and Expectations
Oliver Burkeman discusses the societal pressure to find one's passion and the feelings of inadequacy that arise when individuals believe they haven't discovered it. He suggests that passion may not be a singular pursuit and that liberating oneself from rigid definitions can be empowering. This segment emphasizes the importance of navigating personal experiences without the constraints of societal expectations.
"somewhere which i need to go and search and find and if i don't find it that i'm a failure and much of the the messages i get in my dm's as i've said before are kids that are feeling inadequate and li..."
The Power of Self-Analysis
Burkeman shares how self-analysis through writing can serve as a therapeutic tool, allowing individuals to gain clarity and self-awareness. He highlights the benefits of journaling and the importance of viewing one's problems from a third-person perspective. This segment underscores the value of expressing thoughts and feelings to better understand oneself.
"this yeah absolutely it's just it's another it's another example of it right yeah yeah and i guess the antidote is to liberate yourself from the expectation of like words and phrases and expect social..."
Ambition vs. Happiness
In this segment, Burkeman explores the relationship between ambition and happiness, questioning whether the pursuit of success truly leads to fulfillment. He reflects on personal experiences and societal pressures that drive individuals to achieve more, often at the cost of their happiness. This discussion invites listeners to reconsider their motivations and the true sources of joy in their lives.
"can you relate to that no totally and i for me i mean there's lots of research about how writing down your personal problems for example is incredibly like journaling it works and it's proven to work ..."
Understanding Enoughness
Burkeman delves into the concept of 'enoughness,' suggesting that realizing one's inherent worth can lead to more authentic ambitions. He reflects on personal milestones and the anti-climactic feelings that can accompany them, emphasizing that true ambition stems from a place of self-acceptance rather than external validation. This segment encourages listeners to redefine their goals based on personal fulfillment rather than societal expectations.
"i think that uh all of us have something inside us that we're sort of here this doesn't sound too supernatural that we're sort of here to express and to to put out into the world i think the it gets c..."
Creating Without Justification
This segment discusses the idea that creative pursuits should not be driven by the need for external validation or justification. Burkeman draws parallels to religious concepts of grace, suggesting that actions should stem from a place of appreciation for life rather than a need to prove oneself. This perspective encourages a more fulfilling approach to creativity and ambition.
"that a lot in my life um this idea that because one of the things you said earlier was maybe i'm okay this kind of realization that maybe i am already enough yeah maybe none of these goals are going t..."
The Addiction to Speed
Burkeman examines the cultural addiction to speed and efficiency, highlighting how modern technology has not led to greater relaxation but rather increased impatience. He references the work of therapist Stephanie Brown, who discusses the urgency that drives people to go faster, ultimately leading to burnout. This segment advocates for slowing down to engage more deeply with life and its experiences.
"these things that's great you know i i feel like these existential thinkers are somewhat tortured so yes yeah do you relate to that oh sure i mean i think you know um there's a philosopher uh who died..."
The Spiral of Speed
Oliver Burkeman discusses the overwhelming nature of modern life and the misconception that increasing our speed can help us cope with the influx of information and demands. He emphasizes that this approach leads to a never-ending cycle of needing to go faster, ultimately resulting in burnout. Burkeman suggests that slowing down can lead to deeper engagement and understanding.
"clients and i think it's it's it's very useful is that all of us who are sort of moving at this speed need to experiment a little bit with like what it feels like to just slow down to the speed that t..."
The Power of Patience
In this segment, Burkeman shares an exercise from an art historian that encourages students to spend three hours observing a single painting. He highlights the discomfort of slowing down in a fast-paced world but argues that patience can lead to a more profound engagement with our surroundings. This practice can empower individuals to resist the rush and appreciate the value of taking time.
"and she knows it's like it's completely insane for almost anybody today to envisage doing something like that for for three hours but that's why she that's why she suggests it and you know for the fir..."
Redefining Impatience
Burkeman explores the concept of impatience, distinguishing between the frustration of wanting things to happen faster and the healthy drive for change. He argues that while some urgency is necessary in certain situations, the modern tendency towards impatience can lead to unnecessary stress and dissatisfaction. Understanding this distinction can help individuals navigate their desires more effectively.
"there a role of impatience though is there a role somewhere in life for impatience it depends how you define it right so in the book i'm talking about in patients as wanting things to go faster than y..."
Radical Incrementalism
Burkeman introduces the idea of radical incrementalism, which advocates for making small, consistent progress rather than overwhelming oneself with large goals. He shares insights from psychologist Robert Boice, who found that successful writers often engage in modest daily writing sessions. This approach can reduce procrastination and make tasks feel more manageable, leading to greater productivity over time.
"much more impatient like if a web page takes five seconds to load like you can feel it it's ridiculous but if somebody says yeah i'll put that stuff in the mail and you'll get it in three days you're ..."
Embracing Our Irrelevance
In this thought-provoking segment, Burkeman discusses the liberating concept of embracing our relative irrelevance in the grand scheme of the universe. He argues that recognizing our small place in the cosmos can reduce the pressure to achieve monumental things and encourage individuals to take risks and pursue what truly matters to them, even if it seems mundane.
"in your book you talk about embracing radical incrementalism what does that mean for you this is the idea that there are contexts where um really being willing to make progress on the basis of little ..."
Finding Meaning in the Mundane
Burkeman emphasizes that meaningful lives can be built on everyday actions, such as caring for loved ones or improving one's community. He challenges the notion that only grand achievements are significant, suggesting that the most fulfilled individuals may be those who engage in low-profile, meaningful activities that often go unnoticed.
"kinds of endeavor right there's often a huge benefit in being willing to say well i'm going to work on this for a tiny amount of time today and i'm going to stop even if i'm on a roll right when my ti..."
The Freedom of Irrelevance
Oliver Burkeman discusses the liberating idea that the universe doesn't impose a specific purpose on us, encouraging listeners to take risks and pursue what they find meaningful. He emphasizes that mundane actions, like caring for loved ones, can hold significant meaning, challenging the notion that only grand achievements matter.
"but i think that is a reason to be like why not take the risk like why not do the bold things it's like the stakes are a lot lower than you thought the universe doesn't really care um you don't need t..."
The Burden of Public Life
Burkeman reflects on the challenges of having a public profile, sharing a personal anecdote about scrutiny and the pressure to justify one's actions. He suggests that the more public attention one receives, the more complicated their life can become, leading to a sense of being judged for ordinary mistakes.
"keep saying it's a reason to it's a reason to sort of experimentally do the things that seem to you like the the the the coolest things to do then what you can do is you can you can use a definition o..."
Finding Meaning in Mundanity
In this segment, Burkeman argues that many people may feel pressured to emulate public figures to find meaning in their lives. He asserts that everyday actions can be profoundly meaningful, and that the most fulfilled individuals may be those who lead quieter lives, contributing positively to their communities.
"a sick relative cooking nutritious meals for your kids making your neighborhood a slightly more beautiful place to live in like we don't want a definition of the meaning of meaningful lives that says ..."
The Paradox of Public Figures
Burkeman shares his theory that public figures often grapple with issues of self-worth and normalcy. He discusses how the pressures of fame can lead to personal struggles, suggesting that those in the spotlight may be dealing with their own insecurities and challenges.
"possible that the most fulfilled people on the planet are precisely the ones you never hear from because they're doing low profile things and then you know i have this theory maybe it's maybe it's ins..."
Liberation Through Cosmic Insignificance
Burkeman explores the concept of cosmic insignificance, arguing that while our actions may seem trivial in the grand scheme of the universe, they can still hold personal significance. He emphasizes that understanding our own irrelevance can free us from societal pressures and allow us to pursue what truly matters.
"more problems i i noticed that this week i had a journalist email me saying that five years ago one of your ex-employees says your dog did a poop in the office and you didn't pick it up and i thought ..."
The Importance of Imperfection
In this segment, Burkeman discusses the inevitability of imperfection in life and the importance of taking action despite feeling unprepared. He reflects on his own experiences with public speaking and how embracing the imperfect timing can lead to growth and learning.
"if i had said that you know our our own death and irrelevance could be a motivating force it doesn't appear on the surface that that makes sense but i completely agree that my own fine like the finali..."
Learning Beyond Books
Burkeman addresses the question of whether he does enough to keep learning, acknowledging that life experiences often provide valuable lessons outside of traditional education. He emphasizes the importance of recognizing and embracing these learning opportunities as they arise.
"talk i talk in the book about cosmic insignificance and i sort of mean that right it's like from the perspective of the cosmos no it doesn't matter but that doesn't mean that it doesn't matter it can ..."
The Challenge of Continuous Learning
In this segment, Burkeman reflects on the challenges of making time for learning amidst other responsibilities. He discusses how life events can teach us in unexpected ways and the necessity of being open to new experiences as a form of education.
"holding back until you feel like you know what you're doing yeah this is definitely one that speaks to me i mean obviously i obviously i put the questions in because they speak to me but like this is ..."
The Value of Conversations
Burkeman highlights the importance of engaging in meaningful conversations as a way to learn and grow. He expresses appreciation for discussions that challenge his thinking and expose him to new ideas, reinforcing the value of dialogue in personal development.
"that you're ready recently since the book was out i've been giving more sort of talks and speeches than i ever have done in my life before and um you know i've sort of been forced into not holding bac..."
Liberating Perspectives on Life
In the closing segment, Burkeman and the host discuss the impact of his book on readers, emphasizing its potential to alleviate stress and anxiety caused by societal expectations. They highlight the nuanced approach to life's big questions, encouraging listeners to embrace their unique journeys.
"i would uh probably have left it you know some more i mean it was up to me but if i'd felt that it was up to me i would have left it some more years to sort of get really good at doing that and uh uh ..."