"you are probably gonna be fired for this letter that you wrote Sam is going to destroy your professional reputation like where do you think you're gonna be able to work after FTX it was he was threate..."

"yeah so maybe it's good for individual investors to put their money in passives uh Investments but what about like the health of the market as a whole is it hampered by how much money it goes into pas..."

"way these firms how International Civics but how similar are the strategies for Market making or trading that James freed versus Citadel and these four percent is it the same sorts of strategies or ar..."

"like for example here's uh a famous One not famous I think I read it in a paper and like a bunch of other you know developers from different other companies told me about this it's not something I saw..."

"that signal faster like why is it good for a society that people so much so many resources and so much brain power is spent on these kinds of hacks and these kinds of optimizations yeah so I think if ..."

"that should affect the current price of stock in a different part of the world I think that if you care about efficient markets you want the gap between like source of Truth events and ultimate price ..."

"got it has being a market maker change your views about civilizational tailor risk because you're worried and like you're worried about personally getting run over right by some sort of weird event in..."

"where this was going to head long term and I think if you have the like the fortune of having the financial flexibility to be able to do something like this a lot of like the people in kind of financi..."

"history matching engines already have to deal with the fact that you can have orders coming from like Illinois you can have orders coming from Japan and given light speed they're not going to arrive a..."

"make it more fair yeah so I think there's actually a kind of real world analog about which is like automated market makers on slow blockchains because if you're used to working on NASDAQ where you kno..."

"other things you can do too like you could establish like periodic auctions instead of like continuous matching and things like that and that could potentially help mitigate some of these issues yeah ..."

"as well um but it's hard to tell it's really hard to tell what country I mean in your long experience of dribbling Financial infrastructure what country do you feel has the best uh infrastructure and ..."

"how do adverse selection in trading and hiring differ in hiring there are one many more opportunities for positive selection versus the negative selection you usually encounter in finance and the othe..."

"it's not exactly the same like adverse lotion Dynamics as there is in the traditional trading worlds yeah yeah definitely especially if you have like I guess Mission oriented companies have a especial..."

"yeah that's really interesting should Jane Street replace okmul with rust no because there's too much infrastructure already you know camel yeah but starting from scratch so I guess the world is um if..."

"you been enjoying it it's great and it's come a very long way in the last three to five years and I think crypto has something to do with that it seems to be like one of the like languages of choice f..."

"one of these smart students that high in the summer the short answer is yes but the long answer to why I think they do that is you know the starting salary for the top people in not just Finance but i..."

"to work as hard as possible to make their experience as good as possible which is like it's it's good for the interns you know like when you go to a gene Street like not only do you like learn a lot b..."

"um I had kind of like a hybrid summer like doing some Dev stuff and some trading stuff and to me I thought like okay the Traders are much more much closer to like the real action of the company like I..."

"I think the Silicon Valley culture is much more about like creativity and doing things that are like new that no one else has done before healthy amount of cross-pollination will be good for both wher..."

"um how conspicuous I mean you were just mentioning earlier that these Traders are making mid six figure salaries to begin with let alone where they arise over their careers how conspicuous is their sp..."

"what is the social consequence for lack of a better word of having a bunch of young nerdy people often male often single having this extraordinary level of wealth like what impact does it have I don't..."

"yeah that's a very optimistic story I hope that's the way it plays out um to tell me about the psychology of being a Quant or a Trader or a developer in that space because you're responsible like one ..."

"sleep are like you know uh a Trader in like London or Hong Kong calls me like the middle of the night to say like hey uh can you explain how this thing works I need your help like those are the times ..."

"there some technique that these firms have of this making visceral the impact these Traders have I don't know do they do they bring out some like child who benefited from efficient markets or somethin..."

"by addressing the elephant in the room which is FTX let's begin uh at Jane Street which is where you met SBF can you tell us sort of the origin story of how you first met him and what your first impre..."

"through that experience got it okay and what was your impression of him yeah he was a smart kid he was nice uh he kind of got along well with other people in his class you know he was definitely you k..."

"thought he was you know precocious and had a lot of really good intuitions about markets got it okay um and so what exactly was Euro LED Jane Street at this time and what was his yeah so at this time ..."

"like automated trading systems what kind of research tools will help them do their job better what user interface would make it easier for them to understand what's going on in the market and kind of ..."

"few things kind of went by the wayside and you know they had taken out these huge loans to be able to get their initial capital for Alameda and also there was a big fracture within the company you kno..."

"collapse I think there were two things um one was the infrastructure they had built I think was really poor in the beginning a lot of like Python scripts like slapped together and a couple times they ..."

"originally happened okay got it and were you aware of the extent of this at the time or you know something not at all I mean Sam told me a little bit about it but this was over the course of you know ..."

"I'm considering starting a political prediction Market that was in 2018. okay yeah uh so I it was right after I left Jane Street got it okay and so now you've moved on to Citadel and so you I guess yo..."

"and you know he was like telling me a couple things going on at FTX and then he said you know if you're interested in coming over to FTX we would still love to have you and I thought still if we never..."

"include you know crypto spot crypto and crypto derivatives and it was also one of the primary destinations for institutions you know proprietary trading firms hedge funds to trade crypto and derivativ..."

"kind of longer term desires to be a single app or Marketplace for everything not just crypto so be you know just launching a stocks trading platform as well and so that was like one of the reasons I t..."

"footsteps and its success and that was the part that was most exciting to me because this is what I've been doing now for years is like managing large teams of people thinking about strategy getting p..."

"like separate compliance and legal and operational and support teams start to build out these regulated entities with Chicago the initial base of that operation yeah I mean for selfish reasons my fami..."

"of interest to me like you know because I mean for the primary reason being that I wasn't interested in doing prop again you know like I I worked at James trade I worked at Headlands Tech outside Stud..."

"like gotten an offer to a company and said like before I signed I'm sure you show me your audited finances and just like not a thing that happens right right okay um fair enough so you join FTX and th..."

"it was very hard to follow I don't know if you've ever seen like a large python code base before and so whenever there were issues that arose you know oh like there's like this particular problem with..."

"uh and almost like sort of cult-like belief in this small team like being the butt for cause of all past present and future success what was the discretion that you had at FTX us it sounds like you we..."

"I'm kind of like the day-to-day operational stuff um especially the decisions within some of the things I was responsible for like the stocks uh you know creating platform that I was working on you kn..."

"being unwise uh that like I don't know you try to speak out against um I I mean you mentioned some of them right like not hiring enough people and uh not getting more yeah not getting more developers ..."

"so and then at worst it was just you know there were other times where I brought up like specific things that I thought like he was doing wrong there was one really unfortunate time where I it was the..."

"he was really angry at hearing this criticism directly how did he react I mean he was just he was sort of emotional he was worked up he told me like I got completely disagree with you I mean he said l..."

"at the time sort of like the king of crypto sort of image so I mean was he right about the impact of the pr at the time or maybe maybe yeah let me ask a question different way how did he create this i..."

"of this sort of not only the media hype train but also the amount of time Sam was spending with the media you know on one hand I think people were growing frustrated within the company because of the ..."

"exchanges around the world that also offer derivatives and knowing all their problems like for example if you had an ether futurist position and also an ether spot position on just one Exchange you co..."

"and that had to have come from the initial intuitions that Sam and his colleagues got from being Traders on these exchanges and thinking how should this work if it were perfect so I do think in the be..."

"feels kind of reasonable like how much does Coca-Cola spend per year on marketing of as a percentage of their income it's probably somewhere between like 50 and 130 you know I don't actually know what..."

"sure let's talk about Alameda so I guess again the maybe the best point to start this story is also with Jane Street um where Caroline Ellison who I went out to become the CEO of Alameda was um was a ..."

"yeah you mentioned that you had you were contributing to the code base and you had access to the code base it's people have been speculating about whether Gary or nashad had hard-coded some sort of sp..."

"strange thing to me at all were there is there anything that in retrospect seems to you like a yellow flag or a red flag even if at the time it's something that might make sense in the grand scheme of..."

"and maybe some um uh the the sort of like whole dug itself deeper really nothing at all okay um I mean maybe that's a function of being here in Chicago and just not seeing a group of people freaking o..."

"who was very different than that person I remembered I think he was angrier seemed more depressed more anxious um you know he couldn't get through a conversation without shaking his leg that wasn't ye..."

"and it was a matter of when not if and but what I did know was that like I'm still a professional I'm still loyal to the company I still believe the company itself had an incredible potential to conti..."

"resigning in kind of the end of the summer in early fall and did that happen like did after you left did the did he like try to enjoy your professional reputation and you did the the most the acute th..."

"anymore so the employees were distraught and what I learned later from several investors and reporters who had talked to me was that when they talked to Sam about my leaving Sam told them that my my l..."

"had this particular idea for architect and it was starting to really form kind of towards the end of my time at FTX but I hadn't started anything and so finally like I left FTX and then took a little ..."

"like an investor invested in somebody he disapproved of he would get upset in some way or no I I if that well if that happened I don't know about it but I think it was just Sam had such a uh kind of m..."

"because like whatever I'm used to people saying things on Twitter that seem nonsensical and first of all Sam and Caroline are great Traders like if anything like maybe they'll like profit from all thi..."

"was still very very Pro FTX in spite of my you know experience with Sam and then how did that week unfold for you you were I guess almost about to close around what happened to the round and then how ..."

"parse path back from fiction and so it was an emotional time yeah yeah I understood man right all right so we've kind of done the whole story of you joining to the company collapsing I want to do a so..."

"you suspect that there's like mental health issues or there's addiction issues that for somebody who's in charge of a multi-billion Dollar Empire I don't know it seems like something that's uh I can't..."

"nobody's role to be the you know the guy who's like this was my job and I was a person remember regardless of how experienced or inexperienced people within the company are regardless of how many or f..."

"someone might look at this and say um listen Brad you're wearing like a junior Trader who was like right out of MIT or something who just joined um FTX you have uh more than 10 years of experience in ..."

"like the the counterfactual here is one where okay first I have to believe that there is some kind of fraud which I don't then I have to say Okay I I would like to start auditing all Bank transactions..."

"where people can innovate and build great companies and the people who are Bad actors can get flushed out which is ultimately what I think is happening but I guess they're not letting you hire people ..."

"somebody should do I would say within any company and I would expect that like the overwhelming majority of companies if you see badge management mad management it does not imply fraud um but there's ..."

"regulators and your relationship with them while you're at FTX I mean obviously as head of FTX us I imagine we're heavily involved with talking to them what was their attitude towards FTX like before ..."

"something that we should consider and pursue and be ready for we are 3D printing organs and coming up with like specially designed mRNA vaccines but like you still can't you know get a margin call on ..."

"a lot of fcms have Auto Liquidation there are there's one you know particular one where like they actually automatically close you every day at 4 pm and they do it like in a really bad way so like the..."

"I do think like the Auto Liquidation part was the main piece that people were hung up on which was like how do you provably show the kind of worst case scenario in Auto Liquidation Cascade then again ..."

"conventional narrative about how it went down and why it went down what did it get wrong given that you were on the inside like what do you know was uh different than what has been reported I actually..."

"conversation yeah yeah and I guess the earlier account you gave of his day-long media Cycles kind of lends Gruden's to that mentality I have a question about the future of the people who are at FTX th..."

"good note to close the FTX chapter of the interview on sure let's talk about architect your new company do you want to introduce people to what architect is doing and what problem is solving sure so t..."

"time and so it sounds like this is a solution for people with significant levels of assets and investment in crypto I'm assuming it's not for so I think that's like the place we want to start yeah but..."

"know over time we'll want to grow our offering as much as possible given the fact that you know NASDAQ or whatever already have these barriers is it possible for someone to remove those barriers with ..."

"my incentive is not to build software to make it easier for my customers going all the other exchanges it's like make my exchange better so I'm going to put all of my r d dollars into like providing n..."

"experience with FTX informed development of architect yeah I mean first of all working at FTX you know has given me an appreciation for just how behind a lot of the infrastructure is on other exchange..."

"even what's happened I I think it is just as great as it was before every like major you know Investment Bank in the U.S has announced some like plan to do something with blockchain technology still e..."

"of any commodity yeah and sometimes there are tokens that have more security-like properties where they are like trading Apple stock you know basically like they there is a was an initial offering of ..."

"hear about a lot of like these investment Banks working on settling fixed income products on chain because fixed income products have an even worse settlement Cycles than equities should the marginal ..."

"profitable okay so that is I think a good point to end the conversation we got to talk a chance to talk about a lot of things let's let the audience know where they can find out more about architect a..."