
34 segments available
Zuck on: * Llama 3 * open sourcing towards AGI * custom silicon, synthetic data, & energy constraints on scaling * Caesar Augustus, intelligence explosion, bioweapons, $10b models, & much more Enjoy! 𝐄𝐏𝐈𝐒𝐎𝐃𝐄 𝐋𝐈𝐍𝐊𝐒 * Transcript: https://www.dwarkeshpatel.com/p/mark-zuckerberg * Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/mark-zuckerberg-llama-3-open-sourcing-%2410b-models-caeser/id1516093381?i=1000652877239 * Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/episode/6Lbsk4HtQZfkJ4dZjh7E7k?si=GOqj7hUdSaWSgi7ULWXjMA * Me on Twitter: https://twitter.com/dwarkesh_sp 𝐒𝐏𝐎𝐍𝐒𝐎𝐑𝐒 * This episode is brought to you by Stripe, financial infrastructure for the internet. Millions of companies from Anthropic to Amazon use Stripe to accept payments, automate financial processes and grow their revenue. Learn more at https://stripe.com/ * V7 Go is a tool to automate multimodal tasks using GenAI, reliably and at scale. Use code DWARKESH20 for 20% off on the pro plan. Learn more at https://www.v7labs.com/go?utm_campaign=Dwarkesh%20Podcast%20Newsletter&utm_source=Dwarkesh-Podcast&utm_medium=Newsletter&utm_term=Paid-Email * CommandBar is an AI user assistant that any software product can embed to non-annoyingly assist, support, and unleash their users. Used by forward-thinking CX, product, growth, and marketing teams. Learn more at https://www.commandbar.com/ If you’re interested in advertising on the podcast, fill out this form: https://airtable.com/appxGOvFLDLP5dlzv/pagFVrbHRohW6F2bZ/form 𝐓𝐈𝐌𝐄𝐒𝐓𝐀𝐌𝐏𝐒 00:00:00 - Llama 3 00:09:15 - Coding on path to AGI 00:26:07 - Energy bottlenecks 00:34:03 - Is AI the most important technology ever? 00:38:04 - Dangers of open source 00:54:40 - Caesar Augustus and metaverse 01:05:36 - Open sourcing the $10b model & custom silicon 01:16:02 - Zuck as CEO of Google+
Mark Zuckerberg introduces Llama-3, the latest version of Meta AI, highlighting its open-source nature and integration with Google and Bing for real-time knowledge. He discusses the new features, including real-time image generation and animation capabilities, emphasizing the model's advancements in intelligence and usability for the developer community.
"That's not even a question for me - whether we're going to go take a swing at building the next thing. I'm just incapable of not doing that. There's a bunch of times when we wanted to launch fea..."
Zuckerberg reflects on the strategic decision to acquire H100 GPUs during a challenging financial period for Meta. He explains how this foresight was driven by the need to enhance content recommendations and prepare for future AI developments, particularly in the context of competing with platforms like TikTok.
"hands. It's a big step forward for Meta AI. But I think if you want to get under the hood a bit, the Llama-3 stuff is obviously the most technically interesting. We're training three versions: an..."
Zuckerberg discusses the long-term vision of achieving Artificial General Intelligence (AGI) at Meta, tracing the origins of Facebook AI Research (FAIR) and its evolution into a central focus for the company. He highlights the importance of integrating AI innovations into products and the shift towards developing leading foundation models.
"H100s? How did you know that you’d need the GPUs? I think it was because we were working on Reels. We always want to have enough capacity to build something that we can't quite see on the horizon ..."
In this segment, Zuckerberg emphasizes the significance of coding in training AI models like Llama-3. He explains how incorporating coding knowledge enhances the AI's reasoning capabilities, making it more effective across various domains, even if coding isn't the primary focus for users.
"analyses trying to connect the dots forward. You've had Facebook AI Research for a long time. Now it's become seemingly central to your company. At what point did making AGI, or however you consi..."
Zuckerberg outlines the future trajectory of AI development, focusing on multimodality and emotional understanding as key areas of advancement. He discusses the need for AI to handle complex interactions and the importance of training models to understand human emotions, which will enhance user engagement and experience.
"to make it better on all these things even if people aren't asking primarily coding questions. Reasoning is another example. Maybe you want to chat with a creator or you're a business and you're ..."
Zuckerberg envisions a future where creators can leverage AI to enhance their engagement with audiences. He discusses the potential for personalized AI assistants that creators can train to represent their interests, ultimately transforming how they interact with their communities and expanding the possibilities for content creation.
"If you're doing $10Bs worth of inference or even eventually $100Bs, if you're using intelligence in an industrial scale what is the use case? Is it simulations? Is it the AIs that will be in the..."
In this segment, Zuckerberg elaborates on the advancements in the Llama models, particularly Llama-3 and Llama-4. He discusses the importance of integrating application-specific code and improving tool use, which will enhance the models' capabilities and user experience.
"You mentioned AI that can just go out and do something for you that's multi-step. Is that a bigger model? With Llama-4 for example, will there still be a version that's 70B but you'll just train..."
Zuckerberg reflects on the role of the community in fine-tuning AI models like Llama-3. He expresses excitement about the potential for community-driven innovations and the importance of balancing training and inference in AI development.
"it's just inherently brittle and non-general. When you say “into the model itself,” you train it on the thing that you want in the model itself? What do you mean by “into the model itself”? For ..."
Zuckerberg discusses the challenges of scaling AI training, particularly the need for massive data centers and the energy constraints involved. He emphasizes the importance of building infrastructure to support future AI advancements.
"What is the community fine tune of Llama-3 that you're most excited for? Maybe not the one that will be most useful to you, but the one you'll just enjoy playing with the most. They fine-tune it..."
In this segment, Zuckerberg addresses the potential bottlenecks in AI progress, including energy constraints and regulatory challenges. He speculates on the future of AI development and the importance of overcoming these obstacles.
"Although one of the interesting things about it, even with the 70B, is that we thought it would get more saturated. We trained it on around 15 trillion tokens. I guess our prediction going in wa..."
Zuckerberg shares insights on the future of AI infrastructure, discussing the need for larger data centers and the implications of energy production on AI scalability. He highlights the long-term projects required to support the growing demands of AI.
"maybe those bottlenecks get knocked over pretty quickly. I think that’s an interesting question. What does the world look like where there aren't these bottlenecks? Suppose progress just continues..."
Zuckerberg explores the concept of generating synthetic data for AI training, emphasizing its role in enhancing model performance. He discusses the balance between inference and training in the context of future Llama models.
"It's just like 10x bigger than your budget? I think energy is one piece. I think we would probably build out bigger clusters than we currently can if we could get the energy to do it. That's funda..."
In this concluding segment, Zuckerberg reflects on the transformative potential of AI, comparing it to the advent of computing. He discusses the long-term implications of AI on society and the creative opportunities it will unlock for individuals.
"Llama-3, and maybe Llama-4 onwards? As in, you put this out and if somebody has a ton of compute, then they can just keep making these things arbitrarily smarter using the models that you've put..."
Zuckerberg reflects on the transformative potential of AI, comparing it to the advent of computing. He argues that AI will fundamentally change human experiences and creativity, similar to how the internet and mobile phones reshaped society. He acknowledges the challenges in predicting AI's trajectory but believes it will significantly enhance human capabilities.
"Let's zoom out a little bit from specific models and even the multi-year lead times you would need to get energy approvals and so on. Big picture, what's happening with AI these next couple of d..."
In this segment, Zuckerberg contemplates the relationship between intelligence and consciousness. He suggests that while AI may exhibit intelligence, it does not necessarily equate to consciousness or agency. This distinction raises questions about the uniqueness of human intelligence and the implications of AI development.
"the things that they want a lot more. So maybe not overnight, but is it your view that on a cosmic scale we can think of these milestones in this way? Humans evolved, and then AI happened, and th..."
Zuckerberg discusses the philosophy behind open sourcing AI technologies. He acknowledges the potential risks of releasing powerful AI models but emphasizes the benefits of community innovation. He expresses a commitment to responsible development, indicating that certain qualitative changes in AI capabilities may warrant a reevaluation of open sourcing.
"Obviously it's very difficult to predict what direction this stuff goes in over time, which is why I don't think anyone should be dogmatic about how they plan to develop it or what they plan to ..."
Zuckerberg addresses the challenges of mitigating harmful behaviors exhibited by AI systems. He highlights the importance of understanding and categorizing potential harms, drawing parallels to social media's evolution. He emphasizes the need for ongoing research and adaptation to ensure AI systems are safe and beneficial.
"I think that there's so many ways in which something can be good or bad that it's hard to actually enumerate them all up front. Look at what we've had to deal with in social media and the differ..."
In this segment, Zuckerberg argues for the importance of open source AI in preventing the concentration of power in a few institutions. He discusses the risks associated with untrustworthy actors possessing advanced AI and advocates for a balanced approach to AI deployment that promotes widespread access and security.
"It seems to me that it would be a good idea. I would be disappointed in a future where AI systems aren't broadly deployed and everybody doesn't have access to them. At the same time, I want to b..."
Zuckerberg explores the implications of AI in the context of bioweapons and security. He discusses the potential for bad actors to exploit AI technologies and emphasizes the need for robust defenses. He suggests that open source AI could play a crucial role in mitigating these risks by fostering a collaborative approach to security.
"time a year or two years, let's say you just have one or two years more knowledge of the security holes. You can pretty much hack into any system. That’s not AI. So it's not that far-fetched to ..."
Zuckerberg reflects on the competitive landscape of AI development, likening it to an arms race. He expresses confidence in the ability of AI systems to evolve and adapt faster than adversarial technologies. This segment highlights the ongoing challenges and strategies in maintaining a technological edge in AI.
"that I don't hear people talking about quite as much. There's the risk of the AI system doing something bad. But I stay up at night worrying more about an untrustworthy actor having the super st..."
In this segment, Zuckerberg discusses the risks of AI systems exhibiting deceptive behaviors. He differentiates between hallucinations and intentional deception, emphasizing the need for vigilance in monitoring AI outputs. He shares concerns about misinformation and the importance of developing AI that can counteract adversarial tactics.
"That seems plausible to me. If that works out, that would be the future I prefer. I want to understand mechanistically how the fact that there are open source AI systems in the world prevents so..."
Zuckerberg elaborates on the role of AI in combating misinformation and harmful content on social media platforms. He discusses the need for AI systems to evolve in sophistication to stay ahead of adversarial tactics, highlighting the ongoing efforts to improve AI's ability to identify and mitigate harmful behaviors.
"then that could be a risk. That's one of the things that we need to watch out for. Is there something you could see in the deployment of these systems where you're training Llama-4 and it lied to..."
Zuckerberg concludes by discussing the future of AI models, particularly in relation to energy constraints and computational resources. He expresses optimism about advancements in AI while acknowledging the physical limitations that will shape the development of future models, emphasizing the need for sustainable practices.
"lot of what we have to spend our time on as well. I found the synthetic data thing really curious. With current models it makes sense why there might be an asymptote with just doing the synthetic d..."
Mark Zuckerberg shares his thoughts on the metaverse and its potential to enhance human connection. He reflects on historical periods of interest and the limitations of recreating past experiences in virtual environments. This segment highlights the transformative power of the metaverse for social interaction and its implications for various industries.
"It has to be the past? Oh yeah, it has to be the past. I'm really interested in American history and classical history. I'm really interested in the history of science too. I actually think seein..."
In this segment, Zuckerberg reveals his intrinsic motivation to build and innovate. He discusses his background in computer science and psychology, emphasizing the importance of understanding human communication. This personal insight into his drive for creation provides a deeper understanding of his vision for technology and its impact on society.
"Now I think that there can be things that are better about being physically together. These things aren't binary. It's not going to be like “okay, now you don't need to do that anymore.” But ove..."
Zuckerberg draws parallels between his experiences and the historical figure of Caesar Augustus, focusing on the concept of peace and economic transformation. He reflects on how historical perspectives can inform modern technological challenges, particularly in the context of open-source initiatives and innovation. This segment emphasizes the relevance of historical lessons in shaping future technologies.
"of my life. Our family built this ranch in Kauai and I worked on designing all these buildings. We started raising cattle and I'm like “alright, I want to make the best cattle in the world so how ..."
Zuckerberg discusses the implications of open-sourcing AI models, particularly the $10 billion model. He weighs the benefits of open-source collaboration against potential risks and the need for strategic evaluation. This segment highlights the evolving landscape of AI development and the importance of community contributions in shaping future technologies.
"I'm not sure but I'm actually curious about something else. So a 19-year-old Mark reads a bunch of antiquity and classics in high school and college. What important lesson did you learn from it..."
In this segment, Zuckerberg outlines the economic considerations of licensing AI models to cloud providers. He discusses the balance between open-source accessibility and the need for revenue sharing with major companies. This conversation sheds light on the financial dynamics of AI development and the strategic partnerships that can emerge in the tech industry.
"I don't want to strain the analogy too much but I do think that a lot of the time, there are models for building things that people often can't even wrap their head around. They can’t understand..."
Mark Zuckerberg discusses the challenges of open sourcing AI models and the potential control that large companies may exert over developers. He emphasizes the importance of building their own models to avoid dependency on closed systems, and the value of community contributions to enhance their products. This segment highlights the balance between open source benefits and the risks of commoditization.
"take a bunch of your money. But then there's the qualitative version, which is actually what upsets me more. There's a bunch of times when we've launched or wanted to launch features and Apple's ..."
In this segment, Zuckerberg outlines Meta's approach to licensing their Llama models to cloud providers. He explains the need for revenue sharing when large companies like Microsoft and Amazon resell their models, emphasizing the importance of collaboration and communication. This discussion sheds light on the economic considerations of open sourcing AI technology.
"will be better because it's open source. There is one world where maybe that’s not the case. Maybe the model ends up being more of the product itself. I think it's a trickier economic calculation..."
Zuckerberg addresses the potential dangers of open sourcing AI, particularly concerning power dynamics and harmful applications. He advocates for a framework to guide Meta's decisions on open sourcing and deployment, focusing on mitigating risks associated with content and safety. This segment underscores the responsibility of tech companies in managing the implications of their innovations.
"should share the upside of that somehow. Regarding other open source dangers, I think you have genuine legitimate points about the balance of power stuff and potentially the harms you can get rid..."
Zuckerberg reflects on the impact of open source technologies like PyTorch and React, suggesting they may have a more significant influence than Meta's social media products. He draws parallels to historical innovations, emphasizing that while specific products may evolve, the foundational advancements for humanity endure. This segment highlights the transformative power of open source in shaping the future.
"I actually think the real harms that need more energy in being mitigated are things where someone takes a model and does something to hurt a person. In practice for the current models, and I wou..."
In this segment, Zuckerberg discusses the development of custom silicon for training AI models, specifically mentioning the transition from using NVIDIA GPUs to their own technology. He outlines the roadmap for integrating this silicon into their operations, indicating a strategic move towards more efficient AI training processes. This highlights Meta's commitment to innovation in AI infrastructure.
"By when will the Llama models be trained on your own custom silicon? Soon, not Llama-4. The approach that we took is we first built custom silicon that could handle inference for our ranking an..."
Zuckerberg concludes with insights on leadership and focus within large organizations. He reflects on the challenges of managing multiple projects and the importance of maintaining clarity on priorities. Citing Ben Horowitz, he emphasizes the need to 'keep the main thing, the main thing,' which resonates with the overarching theme of strategic focus in tech leadership.
"Final question. This is totally out of left field. If you were made CEO of Google+ could you have made it work? Google+? Oof. I don't know. That's a very difficult counterfactual. Okay, then th..."