All Segments
a16z Podcast | Knowledge Builds Technology and Technology Builds Knowledge -- with Joel Mokyr
28 segments available
The Industrial Revolution (and period between 1500-1700) was an unprecedented age of technology and economic progress — not unlike today’s, in fact — where we took “quantum leaps” forward in tech by taming electricity, making cheaper steel and refining iron cheaply, automating fiber looms, pumping water out of coal mines, figuring out how to measure longitude at sea, improving the quality of food, preventing smallpox, … even bleaching underwear. But what really triggered the Industrial Revolution? Why did it take place in Europe and spread beyond? It has to do with a competitive, open market of ideas — a transnational “Republic of Letters”, not unlike the early days of the blogosphere. And the conditions that created it (virtual networks, open access science, weak ties, and so on) are the very conditions we may need to sustain growth and prosperity even today, argues Joel Mokyr, professor of economics and history at Northwestern and author of the new book A Culture of Growth: The Origins of the Modern Economy. Despite fears of what new tech may bring, the alternative to not innovating is stagnation — “not doing it is worse”, argues Mokyr in this episode of the a16z Podcast. So how do we then measure that growth? How does this all play out internationally, and institutionally? And what happens when we bring shared focus to big problems, like climate change? If there’s one pattern that continues to play out throughout history to today, it’s that “Knowledge builds technology and technology builds knowledge.” image: Library of Congress
Segments Timeline
The Industrial Revolution Unveiled
In this segment, Joel Mokyr introduces the key themes of his book, 'A Culture of Growth,' discussing the transformative technological advancements of the Industrial Revolution. He highlights the era's significant progress in various fields, including electricity, steel production, and public health, drawing parallels to today's technological landscape.
"hi everyone welcome to the a 6nz podcast i'm sonal today's guest is joel milkier professor of economics and history at Northwestern his new book a culture of growth the origins of the modern economy i..."
The Birth of the Steam Engine
Mokyr delves into the revolutionary invention of the steam engine by Thomas Newcomen in 1712. He explains the scientific principles behind its operation, emphasizing the historical context of knowledge that made such innovations possible, including the understanding of atmospheric pressure and vacuums, which were not recognized until the 17th century.
"progress in this interview we cover everything from the public virtual sphere of ideas that drove this knowledge at the time and internet analogies today we also touch briefly on how to focus on big p..."
Knowledge and Technology Synergy
This segment explores the crucial relationship between knowledge and technology, as Mokyr asserts that 'knowledge builds technology and technology builds knowledge.' He discusses how this synergy has driven economic growth throughout history and continues to influence modern advancements.
"because Aristotle thought that there is no such thing as a vacuum and Aristotle was the gospel for many centuries and basically Aristotle said something that was true people thought and then you know ..."
The Age of Contestability
Mokyr highlights the concept of contestability during the Industrial Revolution, where established beliefs were challenged. He discusses how this era marked a shift away from reverence for ancient wisdom, fostering an environment where ideas were rigorously tested against evidence and logic, paving the way for innovation.
"economic growth and it still does to the present day I think we can accept that today generally speaking an important nuance in what you just described is that the people who are working on the steam ..."
Trust in the Market of Ideas
In this segment, Mokyr examines the role of trust in the intellectual landscape of the time. He describes the 'Republic of Letters' as a virtual network where knowledge was shared and vetted, emphasizing how trust among scholars facilitated the circulation of ideas and discoveries.
"confront it with data with evidence with logic with mathematics now that you know that sounds sort of totally urban how could it any other way and the answer is basically everybody does it the other w..."
Philosophical Wars and Idea Markets
Mokyr reflects on the competitive nature of the intellectual community during the Industrial Revolution, likening it to today's business environment. He discusses the rivalry among scientists and the importance of executing ideas effectively in the marketplace of ideas, drawing parallels to contemporary priority disputes in scientific discovery.
"analogous to even the business world you have incumbents and you have new sort of upstarts or startups going against like you know established knowledge and the way of doing things part of the contest..."
The Competitive Market for Ideas
This segment focuses on the competitive nature of the European intellectual landscape, where numerous states and cities vied for dominance. Mokyr explains how competition fosters innovation and the importance of transparency and reputation in establishing credibility within this marketplace of ideas.
"formal organization there is no bricks and mortar institutions involved but it's based on a network of people who writes letters to each other to correspond publish books and they read each other's bo..."
Reputation and Knowledge Production
Mokyr discusses the significance of reputation in the production of knowledge, emphasizing how peer assessment and credibility play crucial roles in the dissemination of ideas. He draws connections to modern academic practices and the impact of reputation on knowledge creation.
"likely cost a bit of ink but there will be no spilling of blood and I think it's a very telling quote because it's in stark contrast to a lot of what we're what's happening and playing out today it me..."
The Elitism of Knowledge Creation
In this segment, Mokyr addresses the elitism inherent in the production of knowledge, noting that while the marketplace of ideas promotes meritocracy, it remains dominated by a small number of elite institutions. He reflects on how the internet has altered this dynamic, creating new opportunities for diverse voices in knowledge creation.
"about that yesterday here at Northwestern but you know there's a there's a very famous priority fight between two of the Giants of the age Isaac Newton inand and live dates about who invented calculus..."
The Internet's Impact on Knowledge Equity
Mokyr concludes by discussing the transformative impact of the internet on knowledge production and dissemination. He acknowledges that while the internet has democratized access to information, the reality remains that a disproportionate number of innovators come from elite institutions, highlighting ongoing challenges in achieving true equity in knowledge creation.
"marketplace of ideas and this is even true in the Internet today when you think about the Internet as like a massive enabler for this kind of openness and transparency but the key word and that you go..."
Evolving Knowledge Production
Mokyr reflects on how the Internet has transformed knowledge production, allowing individuals to build credibility outside traditional institutions. He compares this to the historical impact of the printing press, noting that while access to knowledge has increased, the number of true innovators remains limited to elite institutions.
"phenomenon and even when we think about credentialed institutions today there is a certain elitism associated with that I think what's really interesting about the internet and the production of knowl..."
Knowledge as a Public Good
In this segment, Mokyr explains the unique nature of knowledge as a public good that is easily shared and not excludable. He discusses the low marginal cost of sharing knowledge and how the Internet has reduced barriers, enabling unprecedented access to information and collaboration across borders.
"traditional system exactly in some ways I'm looking at the similar transformation there's the printing press so all of a sudden somebody come come out of nowhere and publish a book that everybody take..."
The Role of Institutions in Knowledge
Mokyr examines the role of institutions in the marketplace of ideas, distinguishing between national and transnational institutions. He argues that the spontaneous emergence of the 'Republic of Letters' has been more influential in fostering innovation than formal institutions, drawing parallels to modern virtual communities.
"true and I would certainly subscribe to the notion that our own age is in many ways totally unique and which is why I am not really a great believer in the hypothesis that there's an awful lot we can ..."
The Elitism of Knowledge Exchange
Mokyr discusses the elitist nature of knowledge exchange in both historical and modern contexts, likening the early blogosphere to the Republic of Letters. He emphasizes that while meritocracy plays a role, the majority of significant innovations still emerge from a small, elite group of institutions.
"to happen to despite the best efforts of these states not thanks to them what is far more interesting I think is this spontaneous emergent embody of the Republic of Letters which is an institution eve..."
Weak Ties and Innovation
In this segment, Mokyr highlights the importance of weak ties in fostering innovation, referencing Granovetter's work. He explains how diverse networks and interdisciplinary collaboration can lead to significant breakthroughs, illustrating this with examples from various fields, including economics and psychology.
"electricity in textiles in steel in you-know-what in transportation in medicine you name it it came all out of those interactions and that's basically the central message of my book it's a weirdly une..."
Progress at the Margins
Mokyr elaborates on the concept of progress occurring at the margins, where innovation often arises from the intersection of different fields. He provides examples of how ideas from outside a discipline can lead to transformative advancements, stressing the importance of interdisciplinary collaboration in preventing stagnation.
"just one time happen between at the interstitials between just between disciplines and weak ties in networks and you make this statement that of this idea that progress occurs at the margins and I wan..."
Focus and Competition in Scientific Breakthroughs
Mokyr emphasizes the role of societal focus on specific problems in driving scientific and technological breakthroughs. He discusses historical challenges like measuring longitude and combating smallpox, illustrating how collective intellectual efforts can lead to significant advancements when society agrees on the importance of a particular issue.
"and I think if you leave field to its own devices and without interacting with other fields eventually it will start to stagnate but of course that doesn't happen in a competitive market for ideas bec..."
The Urgency of Addressing Climate Change
In this segment, Mokyr argues that the pressing issue of climate change requires urgent technological innovation. He warns against the dangers of stagnation and highlights that the alternative to innovation is not viable, stressing that technology is essential for solving major global challenges.
"so for instance at this time one of the big issues this is a seafaring time and everybody has a problem was measuring longitude Columbus sailed across the oceans not never knowing where he was longitu..."
Lessons from History on Innovation
Mokyr reflects on historical lessons regarding innovation, cautioning against the fear of unintended consequences that can stifle progress. He argues that the alternative to innovation is stagnation, using examples from history to illustrate how societies that resist change ultimately fall behind.
"issue that a human race is coping which I actually think it doesn't only apply to problems to be solved but even areas of opportunity like the focus now on Mars that isn't necessarily being driven by ..."
The Quest for Flight: A Historical Perspective
This segment explores humanity's long-standing desire to conquer flight, tracing its evolution from ancient myths to the invention of hot-air balloons. Mokyr discusses how focused intellectual efforts can lead to breakthroughs, emphasizing the importance of persistence and creativity in overcoming challenges.
"jumping off church towers breaking their legs I mean people been dreaming about flying even beyond the Western knowledge fear there's so many wonderful examples coming out of Asia in China India as we..."
Innovation vs. Stagnation: The Chinese Example
Mokyr compares the innovation trajectories of China and the West, highlighting how China's recent growth contrasts with its historical stagnation. He warns that a lack of innovation can lead to decline, using China's past as a cautionary tale for other nations that may prioritize stability over progress.
"things that screams at you when you're looking at the history of a cohesive technology is that almost every technology that's ever been introduced has had unexpected unintended unforeseen consequences..."
The Tension Between Growth and Stability
In this concluding segment, Mokyr discusses the tension between the desire for stability and the need for growth. He critiques the resistance to innovation in Europe, contrasting it with the dynamic growth seen in other parts of the world, and emphasizes the importance of embracing change for future prosperity.
"because between 1850 and 1950 China was was not growing it wasn't developing and it wasn't catching up and then of course you get communism for another 25 years that's even worse but it's at some poin..."
Measuring Progress in a Changing Economy
In this segment, Mokyr explores the complexities of measuring economic growth in today's world, where traditional metrics like GDP may not capture the full picture. He discusses the rising importance of product innovation and the challenges of accounting for new technologies that provide value without direct monetary cost.
"frankly if you look at Europe in the era of the Industrial Revolution and today it's quite a stark contrast it is indeed they say why should we grow you know we're happy as we are we need more income ..."
The Value of Free Services
Mokyr highlights the challenge of incorporating free services like Wikipedia into national income accounts. He explains how the value of these services is significant yet unmeasured, emphasizing the need for a new approach to account for technological advancements that enhance our daily lives.
"to pull slightly different we're over measuring inflation because that'll still have to things boil down to the same thing you we've known it for a long time but it turns out the process is getting wo..."
Transaction Costs in Modern Consumption
This segment delves into the hidden costs of everyday purchases, using the example of buying milk. Mokyr illustrates how technological advancements have reduced transaction costs, making shopping easier, yet these improvements often go unrecognized in economic measurements.
"services that we get and this is something that I'm not a hornpipe own but but you know there are things in life that are subject to technological change that never show up in the national income acco..."
The Evolution of Leisure and Consumption
Mokyr discusses how technology has transformed leisure activities, such as binge-watching on platforms like Netflix. He argues that these advancements significantly enhance quality of life but are often overlooked in traditional economic assessments.
"national income accounts this is true for thousands of things that we do every day everything that's in some sense easier the one thing I always detested has been shoe shopping I hate it because I hav..."
Rethinking GDP in a Diverse Economy
In this segment, Mokyr critiques the GDP accounting system, which was designed for a different economic landscape. He emphasizes the need to adapt our measurement systems to reflect the variety and quality of modern products and services.
"precisely so here's another example which I take something like Spotify what Spotify gives me is not only something that is extremely inexpensive virtually free but it also gives me a variety and agai..."
Learning from History for Future Challenges
Mokyr concludes by stressing the importance of continuing to advance science and technology to address emerging global challenges, such as climate change. He reflects on how historical insights can inform our understanding of modern issues and the necessity of innovation.
"nothing my cellular phone today does things that that nothing could do twenty years ago here's one more if we know as I'd like to make because it's often overlooked and that is what's happening to lei..."