All Segments
Luis Seco — On Mathematical Beethovens, Decentralized Education & the Voyage to the Human Brain
45 segments available
Professor Luis Seco is a mathematician, educator, and investor. Among many other titles and achievements, he is the Professor of Mathematics at the University of Toronto, Director of the quant research hub Risklab, Chair of the Centre for Sustainable Development at the Fields Institute, and co-founder of the asset management firm Sigma Analysis & Management Ltd. Got all that?! This one was really fun, and not just because Luis is a fellow quant. We discuss how maths resembles Beethoven’s Fifth Symphony, the future of the ‘metaversity’, the most important lesson Luis gives his students, why investing is becoming a different game, and much more. I hope you enjoy this conversation as much as I did. For the full transcript, episode takeaways, and bucketloads of other goodies designed to make you go, “Hmm, that’s interesting!”, check out our Substack - https://8ca54796.streaklinks.com/CJPd0z7cXCh07hc4JAiMaKTC/https%3A%2F%2Fnewsletter.osv.llc%2F. Important Links: - Website - https://seco.risklab.ca/ - Twitter - https://x.com/ProfLuisSeco - YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/user/luisangelseco Show Notes: 0:00:00 Intro 0:00:50 Main podcast 0:01:40 What Luis learned from the Beethoven of mathematics 0:05:35 Mathematics is the language computers speak 0:08:44 The role of community in an increasingly confusing world 0:13:15 Lifelong education & the voyage to the human brain 0:19:29 Why to teach is to be human 0:24:08 Timebinding & social media as a steam valve 0:29:01 What matters more - content or communication? 0:39:19 Math as a social science: quantifying risk in a nonlinear world 0:47:50 From paper, to numbers, to images: The changing nature of data 0:52:24 Why the future of education lies in decentralization 1:07:28 Swarm solutions & why we’re in the century of collaboration 1:13:04 Metaversities & the case for bringing your kids to work 1:21:43 Why managing money is now based on words, not numbers 1:27:40 Luis as Emperor of the World Books Mentioned: - The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy; by Douglas Adams - The Two Cultures; by C.P. Snow - Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance; by Robert M. Pirsig - Manhood of Humanity; by Alfred Korzybski - How to Win Friends and Influence People; by Dale Carnegie - The Myth of 1926: How Much Do We Know About Long-Term Returns on U.S. Stocks? - https://www.researchgate.net/publication/247907549_The_Myth_of_1926_How_Much_Do_We_Know_About_Long-Term_Returns_on_US_Stocks; by Edward F. Mcquarrie
Segments Timeline
The Importance of Humanities in Communication
Luis Seco emphasizes the significance of humanities—art and literature—in effective communication. He argues that while content is important, the intangible aspects of storytelling play a crucial role in how messages are received. He suggests that the 21st century will focus more on social sciences, highlighting the need to understand the human experience.
"I'm a mathematician I'm a scientist I've written papers up in physics and I'm expected to think that science is all important and I say no what is called Humanities art literature perhaps today is mor..."
Meeting a Mathematical Prodigy
Luis Seco shares his experience of studying at Princeton under Charles Fefferman, a Fields Medal winner. He reflects on the profound impact Fefferman had on his understanding of mathematics, comparing his approach to that of a composer like Beethoven, who extracts deep meaning from simple themes.
"brain well hello everyone it's Jim oy with yet another infinite Loops my guest today there are just so many different ways that I could describe him I think that maybe buying for one of the world's mo..."
Mathematics as a Universal Language
Seco discusses the idea that mathematics serves as a universal language, essential for understanding the complexities of the universe and modern technology. He emphasizes that to grasp advancements in artificial intelligence, one must understand mathematics not just as a tool, but as a language that facilitates communication and comprehension.
"I'd like to do is the thing that really drew me to you is um I'm I'm not in any way I I have a complete Layman's familiarity with mathematics U so I I have uh nothing but in awe of mathematicians both..."
The Evolution of Understanding
In this segment, Seco reflects on how the nature of understanding has changed over time. He argues that as society becomes more complex, individuals must collaborate to comprehend the world around them. He highlights the shift from solitary thinkers like Newton to a more community-based approach in science and education.
"and then I I I did I did work with Charles Ferman who is a a child prodigy you know winner of the fields medal very very young but beside all of that he's a wonderful person and one who does mathemati..."
The Role of Community in Education
Seco advocates for a redefined education system that extends beyond traditional age limits. He believes education should be a lifelong journey, emphasizing the importance of community in fostering understanding and collaboration. He warns against leaving anyone behind in the rapidly evolving landscape of knowledge.
"um of of music and four notes four notes you know not po notes and um to me Charlie is a little bit like him and if I have to say what I learned from him is probably that look for that you know elemen..."
Humanities vs. Engineering: A 21st Century Perspective
Seco contrasts the 20th century's focus on engineering with the emerging importance of humanities in the 21st century. He argues that understanding human nature and creativity will be crucial for societal progress, suggesting that the future will require a balance between technical skills and humanistic values.
"human science fman said that too uh that he actually doubted that mathematics was science because math is not really designed to understand the world around us is made by ourselves is the only science..."
The Human Element in Mathematics
In this segment, Seco discusses the intrinsic human aspect of mathematics, asserting that it is a creation of humanity rather than a mere tool for understanding the physical world. He emphasizes the need for a humanistic approach to mathematics, which can help bridge the gap between technical knowledge and human experience.
"the uh author of heder's guide uh to the universe I don't know if you're or Galaxy if you're a fan of uh of Douglas Adams but uh he had a quote about bak and he was talking about music and he said you..."
The Future of Education and Lifelong Learning
Seco envisions a future where education is a continuous process that adapts to the needs of individuals throughout their lives. He stresses the importance of integrating humanities into education to foster a deeper understanding of what it means to be human in an increasingly complex world.
"going back to your other comment uh see mathematics has always been a language and as I like to say it's on my website you know mathematics is the language that computers speak linguists don't like th..."
The Challenge of Understanding Complexity
Seco addresses the challenges posed by the complexity of modern society and the need for collective intelligence to navigate it. He highlights the importance of forming communities to enhance understanding and tackle the mysteries of contemporary life, emphasizing the role of collaboration in education and beyond.
"a young adult I became really fascinated by quantum physics and so I went through all of the books that were written for the general reader but I still wanted to know more and so I bought some more so..."
The Digital Divide and Education
In this segment, Seco discusses the potential digital divide that could arise from unequal access to education and technology. He emphasizes the need for inclusive educational practices that ensure everyone can participate in the evolving landscape of knowledge and technology.
"point we might get to code that AI rights that we humans literally don't understand and what do you what do you think about that speculation it's um it's um it's possible it's definitely possible um b..."
The Importance of Lifelong Education
Seco reiterates the necessity of lifelong education, arguing that the traditional model of education is outdated. He advocates for a system that supports continuous learning for all ages, emphasizing that education should be about personal growth and understanding, not just job preparation.
"daunting is mysterious and we need I don't think a single person can understand it we need to form groups and I think it's going to give a new value to the concept of a community we we're going to nee..."
Humanism in the Age of Technology
Seco concludes by discussing the role of humanism in a technology-driven world. He argues that as society advances, it is crucial to prioritize human values and ethics to ensure that technological advancements benefit humanity as a whole.
"poses a tremendous challenge for us as a society as an educator we don't want to leave anybody behind education is going to face tremendous challenges making sure that everybody understands the realit..."
The 21st Century: A Voyage to Understanding Humanity
Luis Seco discusses the transition from the engineering-focused 20th century to the social sciences in the 21st century. He emphasizes the importance of understanding what makes us human, suggesting that humanism will play a crucial role in societal progress and happiness. This segment highlights the need for technology and advancements to serve the greater good, rather than harmful purposes.
"engineering and that helped us go to the moon the 21st Cent is going to be the cent of the social science where the voyage were taking us to the human brain that's what we want to understand and What ..."
The Role of DNA in Human Behavior
In this segment, Seco explores the biological underpinnings of human behavior, particularly monogamy, and how our DNA influences societal values. He argues that the familial bonds formed in early human development are crucial for societal evolution, suggesting that these innate behaviors drive our progress as a community.
"defense is on DNA I mean um humans have always been confronted with the things we can do badly and a lot of them are built in our DNA right they say and this is not I'm not a psychologist but they say..."
Bridging the Gap Between Science and Humanities
Seco reflects on the historical disconnect between science and the arts, referencing C.P. Snow's 'The Two Cultures.' He advocates for a multifaceted approach to education that integrates both disciplines, emphasizing the need for collaboration between the sciences and humanities to foster a more holistic understanding of knowledge.
"I couldn't agree more in fact I I thought of two things as I was listening to you um the first one was the the book by CP snow the two cultures right where the science and the Arts kind of stopped spe..."
Lifelong Learning: The Key to Human Growth
Seco and his host discuss the importance of lifelong learning and the necessity of unlearning outdated knowledge. They emphasize that learning is a fundamental human trait, and that fostering a culture of continuous education is essential for personal and societal development.
"hear you say what you're saying about the 21st century um being being the one of the humanities and and bringing the humanity back to our understanding uh but I but I worry and I also completely age a..."
The Joy of Teaching and Learning
In this segment, Seco shares his belief that teaching is a rewarding experience that brings joy to both educators and students. He highlights the intrinsic motivation humans have to share knowledge and the importance of communication in fostering understanding and growth.
"average person who just say yeah I really want to embrace that okay so um so people like you and me I mean we we believe that learning is um fundamental it's not something that you do because it's a a..."
The Impact of Communication on Success
Seco discusses the significance of non-verbal communication in achieving success, asserting that only 15% of communication is verbal. He emphasizes the importance of emotional connection and interpersonal skills in various contexts, such as job interviews and personal relationships.
"what we do we are a bit confused it's true it we're very confused because these things that are happening many people don't understand my hope is that the people who understand it like me like you we ..."
Learning from History: The Role of Ideas
In this segment, Seco draws parallels between historical revolutions and the current digital age, discussing how the spread of ideas can lead to both chaos and progress. He expresses optimism about the potential for positive change through effective communication and education.
"require a lot of communication a lot of podcasts like yours and a lot of teaching and a lot of YouTube channels and then people will find it but we have to always be there teaching each other and help..."
The Power of Ideas in Shaping Society
Seco and his host reflect on the transformative power of ideas throughout history, particularly in relation to the printing press. They discuss how the dissemination of knowledge can lead to societal upheaval but also to enlightenment and progress, emphasizing the need for responsible communication in today's world.
"what it allowed us to do it allowed us to for the first time and in mass time bind our ideas and send them into the future and so that we could learn from somebody who'd been dead for Thousand Years a..."
Social Media: A Modern Steam Valve
Seco compares social media to a steam valve, suggesting it serves as an outlet for societal frustrations that could otherwise lead to violence. He discusses the implications of this analogy for understanding modern communication and the importance of fostering constructive dialogue.
"theory about social media which was it maybe it's a proxy that acts like a steam belel for people who are really angry and in earlier eras would have taken up their Pitchfork and their torch and got a..."
Optimism for the Future: Building a Better World
In this concluding segment, Seco shares his hopes for future generations, emphasizing the importance of creating a better world through education and collaboration. He expresses a desire for a society that values knowledge and fosters positive relationships among its members.
"intellectual Prosperity physical prosperity and uh basically a new a new relationship amongst all of us yeah and that is also my hope and and one of the things that motivates me is you know I have six..."
The 15% vs. 85% Rule in Communication
Luis Seco discusses the critical balance between content and intangibles in communication, emphasizing that only 15% of effective communication is about the content itself, while 85% relies on emotional and social factors. He uses the analogy of job interviews and relationships to illustrate how hiring decisions are influenced more by personal connection than by qualifications alone. This segment highlights the importance of human interaction and community in professional settings.
"said well let me say it in my way which is um when you when you're doing any Act of communication say a job interview you being a parent being a teacher 15% uh of the result of that is due to the cont..."
The Art of Storytelling in Communication
In this segment, Seco reflects on the significance of storytelling in effective communication. He shares his initial reluctance to read 'How to Win Friends and Influence People' due to its title but later recognizes its valuable insights on connecting with others. He emphasizes that successful communication involves engaging narratives that resonate emotionally with the audience, particularly in fields like finance where emotional decisions often underpin analytical reasoning.
"graduation I this is typically fourth year students and this is the last lecture the last week of classes and I tell them that everything they've been doing for four years is like 15% and I said where..."
Understanding Risk: The Role of Mathematics
Luis Seco elaborates on the evolution of risk management, particularly through the lens of Value at Risk (VaR). He critiques the oversimplification of risk into a single number, arguing that this approach fails to capture the complexities of human behavior and market dynamics. Seco advocates for a deeper understanding of risk that incorporates both mathematical frameworks and the emotional aspects of decision-making, positioning mathematics as a vital tool for navigating the complexities of the modern world.
"stories maybe that's that limbic brain that you know it influences that because another one of my ideas is that many decisions even among the most analytical people are made emotionally and then paper..."
ESG and the Complexity of Modern Risk Management
In this segment, Seco discusses the challenges of Environmental, Social, and Governance (ESG) criteria in risk management. He highlights the difficulty in quantifying social and environmental impacts compared to financial metrics. Seco argues for a more nuanced approach to understanding these complexities, leveraging advancements in AI and computational power to better assess risks associated with ESG factors, thus moving beyond traditional financial metrics.
"quantify and that leads me into your work in Risk Management in Asset Management um you know when I start first saw uh value at risk bar uh I I I had a real negative reaction to it and and my negative..."
The Evolution of Data in Risk Management
Seco reflects on the transformation of data over the past century, from simple pencil-and-paper records to complex databases and now to the integration of unstructured data. He emphasizes the shift in data analysis methods, particularly in finance, where the focus is moving towards understanding qualitative factors alongside quantitative data. This evolution signifies a broader understanding of risk management that incorporates diverse data types and the complexities of human behavior.
"it so if you wouldn't mind talking about that a bit wow now now you touched the nerve this is all very important for me so I'll start with value at risk you know I let me tell you how I explain Val at..."
The Evolution of Financial Risk Management
Luis Seco discusses the evolution of financial risk management, emphasizing that value at risk was just the first step towards understanding complexity in finance. He highlights the importance of moving beyond simplistic metrics to embrace the intricate interactions between various financial variables, especially in the context of AI advancements.
"evolution that it started with a big bang called valat risk and you know this thing that many people thought was the solution to to to everybody's problems no it was just the first step in it directio..."
From Numbers to Multimodal Data
In this segment, Seco explains the transition from traditional numeric data to a new era of multimodal data that includes images, videos, and real-time analytics. He reflects on how this shift will revolutionize fields like agriculture and engineering, and stresses the need for an education system that prepares individuals for this rapidly changing landscape.
"where you are moving with AI describe if you don't mind the the way that we are seeing the change from you know very heavy data numeric data um and uh a very limited amount of it if you've done any re..."
The Future of Education: Decentralization
Seco envisions a future where education becomes decentralized, drawing parallels with the downfall of Kodak due to its failure to adapt. He argues that education must evolve to meet the needs of a rapidly changing world, emphasizing the role of private sector innovation and community-driven learning in shaping this new educational landscape.
"is even more interesting because what's coming is what's called multimodel models multimodel data data which includes sensor data images video all things that I could analyze in real time so if we thi..."
Democratizing Knowledge: The Role of Community
In this thought-provoking discussion, Seco highlights the importance of community in education, suggesting that future learning will be less about centralized institutions and more about collaborative, decentralized systems. He draws on the analogy of YouTube as a platform for both noise and signal, emphasizing the need for curation in educational content.
"what is different is in my opinion they need for a different type of education and so the immediate next question is what does that education look like what let let's let's let's both live in the futu..."
The Value of Human Capital in Education
Seco argues for the intrinsic value of human capital and the transformative power of education. He discusses how a decentralized education system can enhance individual worth and contribute to societal progress, envisioning a future where great educators are compensated fairly for their contributions.
"teaching me this well maybe you don't know maybe the whole Community will have with its own way of of um of helping you select who that teacher is going to be a little bit like what YouTube does right..."
The Future of Community and Education
In this concluding segment, Seco and his co-host explore the potential disruptions to traditional concepts of community and education. They discuss how advancements in technology and social organization will redefine learning and collaboration, emphasizing the need for a system that values continuous education and community engagement.
"that and um it is is it going to be I think it's going to be decentralized I think there will be will become a business for many companies to to operate in and uh then humans will be participants in t..."
Human Ingenuity vs. Scarcity
In this segment, Seco references Julian Simon's idea that humans are the ultimate resource, countering Malthusian fears of scarcity. He discusses the necessity of decentralizing education and leveraging human ingenuity to solve complex problems, emphasizing that the future will require collaborative approaches to learning and innovation.
"because the way you calculate the value of education at a very basic level is look at how much your salary will pay that's the typical NBA argument right what do you do in NBA you spaying 50,000 now y..."
The Century of Collaboration
Seco predicts that the 21st century will be defined by collaboration rather than confrontation. He discusses the importance of collaborative problem-solving in education and beyond, suggesting that new systems will emerge that facilitate cooperation and enhance human connections.
"account for is human Ingenuity and the ROI on human Ingenuity which is nearly infinite and endless right and and so I completely agree that the that the it has to be it has to be decentralized it has ..."
Redefining Education and Employment
This segment explores the need for a shift in how education and employment are perceived. Seco suggests that traditional systems are outdated and that new models should focus on long-term relationships and community engagement, allowing for a more fluid transition between education and the workforce.
"these types of learning systems that people will just flock to them what what do you think about the idea that's been emerging that I find interesting they call them SM uh smart swarms where where peo..."
The Role of Community in Hiring
Seco discusses the concept of hiring within a community context, where individuals are known and valued beyond their formal qualifications. He argues that this approach fosters better relationships and enhances collaboration, ultimately leading to more effective problem-solving and innovation.
"be so much stronger at problem solving at educating each other at making each other happier and so on and so forth and anything that enables this collaboration aspect is going to be um well unavoidabl..."
Children as Learning Partners
In this thought-provoking segment, Seco advocates for integrating children into the workplace as a means of enhancing learning for both adults and children. He emphasizes the value of observing and interacting with young learners, suggesting that this could lead to significant transformations in how we approach education.
"system but as soon as for example companies they start to hire people based on other types of merits uh where the rating system gets expanded and it changes when now education can be made available he..."
Empowering the Next Generation
Seco reflects on the importance of empowering younger generations in the workplace. He critiques traditional hierarchical structures and advocates for a more inclusive approach that values contributions from all levels, particularly from those who are more attuned to modern technologies and methods.
"find very interesting because I I agree that um the the century I love the way you frame it the 20th century being the century of conflict um and the 21st century hopefully being the century of cooper..."
Learning from the Young
In this concluding segment, Seco shares insights on the natural curiosity of children and how their learning processes can inform adult education. He highlights the need for a shift in perspective regarding youth contributions, advocating for a more dynamic and interactive approach to learning that benefits all participants.
"it it tells you more of a story you mentioned earlier in our conversation that uh like how are people in crisis are they are you know do they fall to pieces or or are they um more stoic uh about it th..."
Gamification in Learning
In this segment, Seco explores the concept of gamification in education and portfolio management. He argues that integrating game-like elements into learning processes can enhance engagement and effectiveness. Seco emphasizes that learning should be enjoyable and that traditional methods that lack fun can deter students from fully participating in their education.
"time yeah and right I mean you and my guess is you learn from your students all the time as well every day and they all know it right and and I have I have um an example that I use I for example I am ..."
The Future of Investment
Seco shares insights on the evolving landscape of investment management, highlighting a shift from data-driven to narrative-driven decision-making. He explains how understanding social dynamics and community insights, as seen in phenomena like GameStop, is crucial for modern investors. This segment discusses the importance of adapting to new data sources and the role of sustainability in investment strategies.
"I agree and I think that's an unfortunate term because it you know label thinking uh is not really great for us if we're trying to to extend our understanding and and and I think certain people he gam..."
Intangibles and the New Quant
In this segment, Seco elaborates on the significance of intangible assets in today's investment landscape. He argues that traditional metrics like GDP are becoming obsolete, as the real value lies in understanding complex data streams and intangibles. This discussion emphasizes the need for new analytical tools and approaches in quantitative finance, moving beyond mere numbers to a more nuanced understanding of value.
"right um sure so um I'm getting my producers giving me the little uh uh with me it tends to be more of a 10minute warning than than a two-minute warning uh but um what what do you see as the most prom..."
The Art of Quantitative Analysis
Seco concludes with a reflection on the future of quantitative analysis, suggesting it will increasingly resemble an art form rather than a strict science. He emphasizes the importance of managing complex data streams and adapting to a non-deterministic world. This segment highlights the need for flexibility and creativity in investment strategies, moving away from binary thinking.
"realities the complex realities of what's Happening that information is not accounted for companies don't account for the value of their data companies don't don't account for the value of their commu..."
Incepting Love into the World
In a thought-provoking conclusion, Seco shares his vision for the world, advocating for love and compassion as fundamental principles. He emphasizes the importance of fostering positive relationships in professional settings and beyond. This segment encapsulates the essence of his philosophy, urging listeners to prioritize love in their interactions and decision-making.
"goes up right it's just um the quantification of that will be done with new forms of AI which we have and will be developed and it's going to be a fantastic fantastic activity yeah I agree uh we when ..."