All Segments
Persuasive communication and managing up | Wes Kao (Maven, altMBA, Section4)
32 segments available
Wes Kao has worked with Seth Godin (where she co-founded the altMBA and served as executive director), David Perell on his Write of Passage course, Professor Scott Galloway on Section4, and Morning Brew. Currently, she’s the co-founder of Maven, a cohort-based learning platform where I taught my own course. Wes is passionate about telling stories that stay true to the creator’s intentions while keeping your audience listening. In today’s episode, you will learn how to use state changes to keep your audience engaged, how to communicate more clearly by focusing on the how more than the why, how to manage up for success, and how to communicate your priorities to set a boundary. — Find the full transcript here: https://www.lennyspodcast.com/persuasive-communication-and-managing-up-wes-kao-maven-seth-godin-section4/#transcription — Where to find Wes Kao: • Website: https://www.weskao.com/ • Twitter: https://twitter.com/wes_kao • LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/weskao/ — Where to find Lenny: • Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com • Twitter: https://twitter.com/lennysan • LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/ — Thank you to our wonderful sponsors for making this episode possible: • Modern Treasury: https://www.moderntreasury.com/ • Berbix: https://www.berbix.com/start • Makelog: https://www.makelog.com/lenny — Referenced: • The Super Specific How: How to make your cohort-based course more rigorous: https://www.weskao.com/blog/super-specific-how • It Was the Best of Sentences, It Was the Worst of Sentences: A Writer’s Guide to Crafting Killer Sentences: https://www.amazon.com/Was-Best-Sentences-Worst-Crafting/dp/158008740X • Guide to Better Business Writing (HBR Guide Series): https://www.amazon.com/HBR-Guide-Better-Business-Writing/dp/142218403X • Seth Godin’s blog: https://seths.blog/ • The Minto Pyramid Principle: Logic in Writing, Thinking, and Problem Solving: https://www.amazon.com/Minto-Pyramid-Principle-Writing-Thinking/dp/0960191038 • Doctor Foster: https://www.amazon.com/Doctor-Foster/dp/B01DT0WQ2C • Suzy Batiz: https://www.suzybatiz.com/ • Amanda Natividad’s Marketing 201 course: https://maven.com/amandanat/content-marketing • Dr. Marily Nika’s course: https://maven.com/marily-nika/technical-product-management — In this episode, we cover: [00:00] Wes’s early career [07:08] How to land a job with Seth Godin [09:56] What makes Seth Godin stand apart [14:50] Wes’s framework for better writing: the super-specific how [18:08] Writing and teaching without the BS [21:45] State changes: how to keep your audience engaged when teaching [25:51] The data of “eyes light up” moments [29:27] What managing up can do for you [32:51] How to manage up effectively [34:17] Lenny’s template for proactive communication [36:19] The skills you need to communicate clearly through writing [43:50] How to protect your bandwidth (without having to say no to your boss) [47:32] How Lenny sets priorities and communicates them [48:24] Lightning round! — Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquires about sponsoring the podcast, email podcast@lennyrachitsky.com.
Segments Timeline
The Power of Managing Up
Wes Kao discusses the importance of managing up in the workplace. She emphasizes that while many employees feel resentful about managing their bosses, embracing this responsibility can lead to greater appreciation, trust, and opportunities. By taking the initiative to manage up, employees can enhance their career prospects and foster a more productive relationship with their superiors.
"I think that most people assume that their boss has to manage them and they feel a little bit resentful that you know why should I manage my boss like they're getting paid more they are my manager the..."
Wes Kao's Journey and Impact
Wes Kao shares her unique career path, starting from corporate retail at Gap to co-founding the altMBA with Seth Godin. She highlights her experiences working with notable figures like David Perell and Scott Galloway, and how these experiences shaped her approach to teaching and course creation. Her journey illustrates the transformative power of mentorship and collaboration in professional growth.
"you Wes Cal this episode is brought to you by modern treasury modern treasury is a Next Generation operating system for moving and tracking money they're modernizing the developer tools and financial ..."
The Birth of Maven
Wes Kao explains the inception of Maven, a cohort-based learning platform. She discusses the challenges faced in the online education space and the need for better technological solutions for course creators. This segment highlights her vision for the future of education and the importance of creating accessible and effective learning environments.
"this episode is brought to you by verbick whether you're in the business of crypto or renting out vehicles or selling age restricted Goods it's important to have the confidence that who you're selling..."
Connecting with Seth Godin
Wes recounts her serendipitous connection with Seth Godin, which began with a blog post seeking a special projects lead. She shares her experience applying for the role, the unexpected response from Seth, and the subsequent journey that led to co-founding the altMBA. This story emphasizes the importance of taking chances and not self-rejecting in professional opportunities.
"generally you're just a super fascinating human that I love this excuse to get to learn more about you and for listeners to learn more about you and so with that what welcome to the podcast hey Lenny ..."
Working with a Marketing Genius
Wes reflects on her time working with Seth Godin, describing him as even sharper and more insightful in person than in his writings. She discusses the high standards they maintained for their work and how this experience raised her expectations for quality and speed in her own projects. This segment highlights the value of mentorship and the impact of working alongside a creative genius.
"years was like was was really really fantastic training and uh set me up for success for for you know jumping into tech and and other roles since then after Gap I went to a beauty company that was acq..."
Lessons from Seth Godin
In this segment, Wes shares key lessons learned from Seth Godin, including the importance of quality in fast-paced work environments. She discusses how their collaboration challenged her perceptions of what is achievable and instilled a commitment to excellence in her own endeavors. This reflection underscores the significance of high standards in creative work.
"and I was shocked that no one had tackled this problem of all of us course graders needing to to uh toggle between half a dozen different tools just to make a live plus async course be able to work an..."
High Standards and Fast Shipping
Wes Kao shares insights from her experience working with Seth Godin, emphasizing the high standards and rapid production of quality work. She discusses the surprising ability to deliver high-quality content quickly, challenging the common belief that speed compromises quality. This segment highlights the importance of excellence and the rigorous standards that can elevate one's work.
"Genuine someone is and I think he's he's even more genuine even sharper even funnier in person so that's what he you know that was kind of high level I think the other thing is that internally we had ..."
The Craft of Communication
In this segment, Wes Kao reflects on the importance of craft in communication, inspired by her time with Seth Godin. She emphasizes the need for writers to care deeply about their craft and shares her obsessive approach to quality. This discussion underscores the value of high standards in producing impactful content.
"the bar on everything for me and on strategies on tactics on expectations on quality speed um I think the speed that we shipped before I I you know was at a a SEO backed attic start and I thought oh l..."
Working with Scott Galloway
Wes discusses her experience collaborating with Scott Galloway at Section4, touching on his polarizing reputation. She explains her role in designing courses and highlights the dynamic nature of working with influential figures. This segment provides insight into the challenges and rewards of creating educational content in collaboration with strong personalities.
"loved how Seth was kind of similarly obsessed and so yeah learned so much from him that I've taken with me obviously in in you know building Maven now and and everything that I do well I have I have 1..."
The Super Specific How
Wes Kao introduces her concept of the 'super specific how,' which emphasizes the importance of focusing on actionable steps rather than just the what and why in writing. She explains how this approach can enhance clarity and engagement for readers, particularly in fields like product management. This segment is a valuable resource for writers looking to improve their communication skills.
"yeah I don't know about people disliking him he definitely has spiky points of view which I think are amazing um uh yeah so section four Scott Gallow company was one of the first clients I worked with..."
Cutting the Backstory
In this segment, Wes elaborates on the idea of cutting unnecessary backstory in writing. She shares her framework of 'start right before you get eaten by the bear,' encouraging writers to dive straight into the action. This approach helps maintain reader interest and ensures that content remains engaging and relevant.
"thinkers yeah the idea of the super specific how is that most writers most course instructors spend too much time on the what and the why and not enough time on how so if you think about people who ar..."
Content Hierarchy and BS
Wes discusses the content hierarchy, explaining how different formats allow varying degrees of 'BS.' She illustrates how one-directional formats like Twitter and keynote speeches can accommodate more superficial content, while in-depth articles and courses require rigorous, well-supported ideas. This segment emphasizes the importance of accountability in communication, especially in educational settings.
"need to put something forward to get the team going right these are all elements of communication that are juicier and more specific than just saying you know here's here's why communication is import..."
The Power of Courses
Wes highlights the unique challenges and benefits of teaching through courses, particularly cohort-based formats. She explains how these environments demand depth and accountability from instructors, making them more effective for learning. This segment underscores the transformative potential of structured learning experiences.
"think that thinking about that content Harps is is great for holding ourselves to a higher standard to make sure that we are not allowing ourselves to spew BS just because the format might allow it yo..."
Creating State Changes
Wes introduces the concept of 'state changes' in presentations and meetings, emphasizing their role in maintaining audience engagement. She provides practical examples, such as using polls and breakout rooms, to illustrate how varying the format can keep participants attentive and involved. This segment is essential for anyone looking to enhance their presentation skills.
"that concept anything else you want to add on that idea before we move on to the next concept let's go next con let do let do it okay so when I was building my PM course with you you blew my mind numb..."
Engaging Your Audience with State Changes
Wes Kao introduces the concept of 'state changes' to enhance engagement during Zoom meetings and presentations. She explains how traditional formats often lead to audience fatigue and suggests various techniques, such as using chat, switching views, and incorporating breakout rooms, to keep participants alert and involved. By implementing these strategies, presenters can create a more dynamic and interactive experience.
"talks but also even better Zoom meetings yeah if you think about most Zoom meetings or presentations it's one person talking at you the entire time and everyone else has to listen silently it's pretty..."
The Power of Audience Interaction
In this segment, Wes Kao emphasizes the importance of audience interaction during presentations. She shares practical examples, such as using polls and encouraging guesses, to stimulate engagement. By actively involving the audience, presenters can enhance retention and make their material more memorable, transforming passive listeners into active participants.
"to monologues you know like I'm kind of imagining Salesforce with there no software sticker If you think about no monologues right like try to avoid monologues as much as possible because that put you..."
Recognizing 'Eyes Light Up' Moments
Wes discusses the 'eyes light up' concept, highlighting how to identify genuine interest from the audience. She explains that while people may nod politely, true engagement is reflected in their facial expressions and body language. By recognizing these moments, presenters can tailor their content to focus on what resonates most with their audience, enhancing the effectiveness of their communication.
"think about it I was talking to Nathan Barry from convertkit he was saying that he loves State change method too and that anytime he does a presentation now every three to five slides he'll put in a s..."
Using Engagement Signals to Improve Communication
In this segment, Wes Kao elaborates on the significance of observing audience reactions during presentations. She encourages presenters to pay attention to visual cues and vocal excitement, which can provide valuable insights into what content resonates. By leveraging these engagement signals, presenters can refine their messaging and focus on ideas that captivate their audience.
"in meetings yeah so the idea behind what I call eyes lighting up is that you know when you're talking to someone and you're explaining something you're teaching them you're sharing your startup idea o..."
The Importance of Managing Up
Wes Kao transitions to the topic of managing up, explaining its critical role in professional success. She highlights that managing one's boss is essential for building trust and securing opportunities. By proactively communicating and keeping their managers informed, individuals can enhance their relationships and career trajectories.
"up and it might be talking about numbers or it might be talking about upside or it might be talking about how little effort this is to try or whatever angle it is it really gives you great data that y..."
Strategies for Effective Managing Up
Wes shares actionable strategies for effectively managing up, emphasizing the need for clear communication about decisions and progress. She advises on providing the right level of context to keep managers informed without overwhelming them. This proactive approach fosters a collaborative environment and strengthens professional relationships.
"updated on what's changing that's why High Velocity product teams like Monte Carlo Armory and popsicle use make log make log makes it easy to see what's happening across tools like jira linear Assan a..."
Weekly Updates: The State of Lenny
Lenny shares his personal practice of sending a weekly 'State of Lenny' email to his manager, outlining priorities, blockers, and current thoughts. This simple yet powerful method keeps his boss informed and aligned with his work. Wes and Lenny discuss how such regular updates can enhance communication and ensure that both parties are on the same page.
"there's all these great things that happen when you decide to manage up and I think you know more people are realizing that you know hey as an individual contributor even as a manager we all kind of h..."
Avoiding Surprises in Communication
Wes and Lenny discuss the negative impact of surprises in a work context. They agree that over-communication is essential, especially in remote work, to ensure everyone is aligned and informed. By providing clear updates, employees can prevent misunderstandings and maintain trust with their managers.
"that I think the avoiding surprises is great I think in a work context surprises are generally not great so I always say you know unless you're surprising me by bringing me a snack or something like d..."
Structuring Effective Communication
Wes shares her approach to structuring communication for clarity. She suggests starting with the most important point, followed by context for those who need more information. This method helps ensure that readers can quickly grasp the key message while still having access to detailed reasoning if needed.
"also structuring your Communication in a way where if someone already agrees with you or they get it they can get the gist but if someone doesn't get it they can continue reading so that kind of helps..."
The Craft of Writing Well
Wes Kao emphasizes the importance of studying the craft of writing beyond mimicking others. She recommends books that focus on creating strong sentences and arguments, highlighting that understanding the mechanics of writing can significantly improve clarity and effectiveness in communication.
"things although one student used that format with a potential customer where started off being bottom blind here's where we're at and they're like man that's that's aggressive and so I had to adjust t..."
Avoiding Leading Questions in Writing
Wes discusses the pitfalls of leading questions in writing and how they can skew reader perception. She advises being clear about recommendations and ensuring that writing does not unintentionally mislead the audience, thus fostering trust and clarity in communication.
"write a sentence there's actually already a point of view or or um there's there's a point of view baked in but you don't want it to be an accidental point of view right I was just talking to this to ..."
The Importance of Clear Recommendations
Wes highlights the significance of providing clear recommendations in communication. She explains how structuring messages to separate action items from context helps readers understand what is being asked of them, ultimately leading to more effective decision-making.
"so it's a little bit I know it's not quite a sound B but I see this a lot in in people's writing is that there's there's these either send instructors that add more cognitive load to the reader or hav..."
The Minto Pyramid Principle
Wes introduces the Minto Pyramid Principle, which advocates for starting with conclusions in business communication. She explains how this approach keeps the audience engaged and ensures that key decisions are highlighted, making it easier for readers to follow the logic behind recommendations.
"writing not just you know look at what other people are doing to try to get audience engagement but to actually improve your ability to precisely say what you mean and convey the level of conviction t..."
The Skill of Saying No
Wes shares her insights on the challenging skill of saying no, especially for those who are people pleasers. She discusses different strategies for saying no respectfully, emphasizing the importance of communicating trade-offs and maintaining positive relationships in both personal and professional contexts.
"people are like just I'm bored just tell me what you think we should do and then and then help me understand why you got there the worst which happens a lot is mixing all of those things with the acti..."
Empowering Conversations
Wes shares a personal anecdote about her colleague Alex, who skillfully navigated requests by discussing trade-offs. This method not only helps in saying no but also empowers the requester to understand the implications of their request, fostering a collaborative environment while protecting one's bandwidth.
"doesn't know you on the internet who is damning you asking you to to help them with something and so you know with saying no with people that you have let's say long-term Dynamics with continuing Dyna..."
Prioritize and Communicate
Wes introduces a framework called 'prioritize and communicate,' which helps manage incoming requests effectively. She explains how to categorize tasks and communicate their priority, ensuring that both parties are aligned on expectations. This method enhances clarity and reduces the stress of declining requests.
"means that the thing that was going to work on today which was redesigning you know this page on the site we'll have to wait until later this week or this means that you know I'm going to be de priori..."
The Power of a 2x2 Matrix
In this segment, Wes discusses the utility of a 2x2 matrix for prioritizing tasks and communicating effectively. She emphasizes the importance of balancing communication with prioritization to manage workload and expectations, providing a practical tool for listeners to implement in their own work lives.
"think is amazing this is a a concept or related concept that a manager once taught me which is essentially the same idea and she called it prioritize and communicate and the idea here is someone gives..."
Lightning Round Insights
Wes participates in a lightning round, answering quick-fire questions about her favorite books, shows, and courses. This segment showcases her personality and preferences, providing listeners with recommendations for further learning and entertainment, while also highlighting her extensive experience in course creation.
"round okay here we go I need some sound effects I think but anyway until then okay so I'm gonna ask you five questions and just tell me whatever comes to mind and we'll go through it pretty quick soun..."