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Land your dream job in today’s market: negotiation tactics, job search councils, more | Phyl Terry
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Phyl Terry is the author of Never Search Alone, which I’ve seen so many people reference as the most impactful guide they read for finding a job. Phyl was on the founding team of the first company Amazon acquired back in the ’90s and then was CEO of pioneering product consulting firm Creative Good, with companies like Apple, Facebook, and Microsoft as customers. Today, Phyl is the founder and CEO of Collaborative Gain, which 20 years ago pioneered bringing councils to senior product leaders and GMs in Silicon Valley. That’s their day job—in addition to that, Phyl runs a free global community for job seekers based on their latest book. In our conversation, we discuss: • Why you should never search for a job alone • How job search councils work • How to determine your “candidate-market fit” • How to conduct a listening tour • Creating your job mission and OKRs • How to negotiate job offers • The art of asking for help • Tactics for effective networking and interviewing • Much more — Brought to you by: • Sidebar—Accelerate your career by surrounding yourself with extraordinary peers: https://www.sidebar.com/lenny?utm_source=lennys&utm_medium=newsletter&utm_campaign=waitlist&utm_content=1 • Sprig—Build products for people, not data points: https://sprig.com/getstarted?utm_source=lenny&utm_medium=podcast • Dovetail—The customer insights hub for product teams: https://dvtl.link/3Za7aa0 Find the transcript and show notes at: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/land-your-dream-job-phyl-terry Where to find Phyl Terry: • X: https://x.com/phylterry • LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/phylterry/ • Website: https://www.phyl.org/ Where to find Lenny: • Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com • X: https://twitter.com/lennysan • LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/ In this episode, we cover: (00:00) Phyl’s background (01:58) The concept of job search councils (04:27) The power of community in job searching (08:55) The scale and structure of job search councils (12:27) The impact of job search councils (20:19) The concept of candidate-market fit (22:50) Writing a Mnookin two-pager (24:37) Conducting listening tours (30:12) Creating a focused candidate-market fit (36:20) Advice on finding the right stage of company for you (40:37) Identifying your unique path (45:30) Navigating tough job markets (49:07) Playing to win (53:36) Negotiation tactics for job offers (01:05:12) The gratitude house exercise (01:10:48) The power of asking for help (01:19:18) How to ask for help (01:28:40) Final thoughts and advice (01:38:21) Lightning round Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email podcast@lennyrachitsky.com. Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed.
Segments Timeline
The Power of Community in Job Searching
Phyl Terry emphasizes the importance of community in the job search process, advocating for a focused approach rather than a scattergun method. He discusses how understanding one's candidate-market fit can alleviate the anxiety of job searching, highlighting the need for job seekers to play to win rather than to lose.
"when you're looking for a job you need a spear and not a neck what happens when we're building a product same thing right we want this product to be for everyone but we've learned with product Mark vi..."
Introducing Job Search Councils
Phyl Terry introduces the concept of job search councils, which are support groups of job seekers committed to helping each other navigate the job search process. He explains how these councils leverage human psychology to transform anxiety into motivation and accountability, making the job search less isolating.
"which I've seen so many people at reference as the most impactful thing they read for helping them find a job once you listen to this episode you'll see why prior to this book Phil was on the founding..."
The Impact of Job Search Councils
Phyl shares the profound impact job search councils have had on individuals, including high-level executives. He discusses how these groups foster vulnerability and support, ultimately leading to increased confidence and hope during the job search process.
"Phil thank you so much for being here and welcome to the podcast oh what a pleasure I'm such a fan of yours Lenny I'm thrilled to be here thank you I'm a huge fan of yours and I think by the end of th..."
Lessons from My Mother
Phyl reflects on the inspiration behind his job search methodology, tracing it back to his mother's experience as a teacher. He recounts how she formed a support group that lasted for decades, illustrating the long-standing value of community in overcoming job market challenges.
"of the product community and what they do is they commit to being with each other to supporting each other go through the process of looking for a job and figuring out some of the and and I lay out a ..."
Navigating Tough Job Markets
Phyl discusses how the principles of job search councils emerged from tough job markets, including his mother's struggles as a single parent. He emphasizes that the support of a community can be crucial during challenging times, reinforcing the idea that no one should search for a job alone.
"psychology if you put anxious people together and ask them to be open and vulnerable and to ask for help we'll come back to asking for help it actually flips the anxiety and the fear into hope into mo..."
The Structure of Job Search Councils
Phyl outlines the structure and application process for joining a job search council. He explains how participants are matched based on their job search status and the importance of moderators in facilitating these groups, ensuring a supportive environment for all members.
"1960 Lenny 1960 right so we're talking you know what is that 64 years ago in the San Fernando Valley my mom was a newly minted Elementary School teacher and she put together a council of teachers that..."
The Role of Moderators in Councils
Phyl elaborates on the role of moderators within job search councils, highlighting how they facilitate meetings and provide additional training. He explains the benefits of volunteering as a moderator, including faster matching and enhanced support.
"group and they held her hand as the job she could get guess what she had to be an entry-level teacher again after having been a senior teacher coaching and Advising it was really tough so that that ha..."
Emotional Balance in Job Searching
Phyl emphasizes the importance of managing emotional balance during the job search process. He discusses how job seekers often face more liabilities than assets in their emotional balance sheets and how councils can help mitigate these feelings of fear and anxiety.
"peers on your own sidebar is a platform for senior Tech professionals director to sea level to advance in their career members are matched into peer groups to lean on for unbiased opinions diverse per..."
Success Stories from Job Search Councils
Phyl shares success stories from individuals who have benefited from job search councils, illustrating the positive impact of community support. He highlights how these experiences can lead to accountability and emotional resilience during the job search.
"scale first spr captures your product experience in real time through heat Maps replays surveys and feedback studies then sprig industry-leading AI instantly analyzes all of your product experience da..."
The Journey of Job Searching
Phyl discusses the journey of job searching, emphasizing that while it can be challenging, it also offers opportunities for personal growth. He encourages job seekers to embrace the process and learn about themselves along the way.
"to win you touched on a little bit idea this of settling figure out what to settle for your mom kind of took a job that's below which she was doing before so I want to chat about all these things yeah..."
Joining a Job Search Council
Phyl explains how to join a job search council, detailing the application process and what to expect. He emphasizes the importance of being open and vulnerable in these groups to build trust and foster a supportive environment.
"volunteer time but you also have to pay for technology and you have to pay for certain kinds of support you know later you know we'll talk about this and we're always looking for more volunteers and y..."
The Importance of Vulnerability
Phyl highlights the significance of vulnerability in job search councils, explaining how openness can lead to deeper connections and support among members. He shares insights on creating an environment conducive to sharing and collaboration.
"Seeker or slow Seeker we also ask though are you willing to be a moderator every Council needs a moderator and every moderator is a job Seeker who volunteers to do that and if you and if you volunteer..."
Transforming the Job Search Process
Phyl discusses the innovative approach of job search councils in transforming the traditional job search process. He shares anecdotes of individuals who have successfully navigated their job searches through the support of these councils.
"call it meeting zero where you where you where you're open and vulnerable people share stories about their lives and who they are builds trust and get a sense of who people are and then you move into ..."
The Value of Community Support
Phyl reinforces the value of community support in job searching, encouraging listeners to consider joining a council. He shares a story of a couple who experienced different outcomes in their job searches, illustrating the benefits of community involvement.
"were in the process or people who did it and I can if you like I can pull up and share a few of those that would be help there's a few you have there that'd be that'd be really sweet okay so uh Justin..."
Disrupting the Job Search Norm
Phyl discusses the need to disrupt traditional job search methods, advocating for a community-based approach. He shares insights on how job seekers can benefit from collaborative efforts and the importance of embracing new strategies.
"introduce I think is really important all those things are really important but the most important thing to manage is your emotional balance I talk about your emotional balance sheet and for many job ..."
Building a Supportive Community
Phyl Terry emphasizes the importance of community during the job search process, especially in challenging times. He shares a story about a senior product leader who found immense support and vulnerability within a job search council, highlighting how such environments can foster openness and collaboration. This segment underscores the value of seeking help and creating a supportive network when facing job search difficulties.
"magic wand that especially in a down market today that magically gets a job it's hard the job search and and he talks it can be hard and humiliating at times I know this is why I want to create this c..."
The Value of Job Search Councils
Phyl discusses the unique approach of job search councils, which aim to disrupt traditional job searching methods. He shares a personal story about a couple of product leaders who benefited from joining a council, illustrating how these groups can create trust and accountability. This segment makes a compelling case for why individuals should consider joining a council to enhance their job search experience.
"amazing just to reinforce this point people listening may be like I don't like I'm just going to keep looking for a job I'll use all this advice I don't need a group what's your best pitch again to he..."
Creating a Safety Net for Job Seekers
Phyl Terry introduces the concept of building a private safety net for those who have been laid off. He contrasts this initiative with government unemployment insurance, emphasizing the need for innovative solutions in job searching. This segment highlights the mission of creating supportive structures that address the anxieties and fears associated with job loss, aiming to empower individuals during their transitions.
"quick story we had a great interview with a couple two of them were product leaders both they had met at Amazon and that he got on to have great careers they both got laid off the woman joined a job s..."
Understanding Creative Destruction
In this segment, Phyl explains the economic concept of creative destruction and its implications for the job market. He discusses how this dynamic process leads to innovation but also creates challenges for individuals facing job loss. Phyl argues for the necessity of addressing the negative consequences of this economic model, advocating for community-driven solutions to support those affected.
"look try it and and you know we have all these videos on our website with all these people talking go look at it you know if you want to read the book first and see if you think this makes sense um bu..."
The Importance of Candidate-Market Fit
Phyl introduces the concept of candidate-market fit as a crucial job search tactic. He explains how market conditions can shift the roles available, urging job seekers to reassess their expectations based on current supply and demand dynamics. This segment provides insights into how understanding one's fit in the job market can alleviate personal anxieties during the search process.
"practical tools and techniques which we'll talk about what do you think is that a good got a good response I don't I don't need a job but I I want to join one um you also just had a really beautiful w..."
Defining Your Job Preferences
Phyl discusses the radical step of defining what job seekers want and don't want in their next role. He emphasizes the importance of taking time to reflect before diving into the job search, contrasting this with the common 'spray and pray' approach. This segment highlights the value of strategic thinking in job searching, encouraging individuals to clarify their goals for a more effective search.
"in jobs and out of jobs they're anxious and fearful and they there's no program that addresses that that's what we're going after here we're trying to be the solve for the unintended consequences of t..."
The Mnookin Two-Pager Methodology
Phyl introduces the Mnookin two-pager, a tool designed to help job seekers articulate their preferences and goals. He shares the story of its creation and how it facilitates shared learning within job search councils. This segment outlines the process of using this tool to refine one's job search strategy and engage with peers for feedback.
"our all of those all of us who benefited from this I think it's our duty to do something about it that is beautiful you're very good at this let's shift to talking about tactics let's talk about some ..."
Conducting a Listening Tour
Phyl explains the concept of a listening tour as a way for job seekers to gather insights about their fit in the market. He encourages individuals to ask thoughtful questions to their network, emphasizing the importance of feedback in refining their job search approach. This segment highlights how proactive engagement can lead to valuable connections and insights.
"might need to get a senior manager role or whatever now the important thing about this is it's not a personal statement about you it's the marketplace and that's what so many people today in their not..."
Overcoming Fear in Networking
In this segment, Phyl addresses the common fears associated with conducting a listening tour. He reassures job seekers that most people are eager to help and share their insights. Phyl emphasizes the importance of building relationships and how asking for help can create a supportive network, ultimately benefiting the job seeker.
"fit you're not going to just go you know you're going to iterate First Step what do you want what don't you want that's the manukan two-pager named after Allison manukan who was a member of one of our..."
The Golden Question in Networking
Phyl introduces the 'golden question' as a powerful tool for networking during the job search. He explains how asking others how they would approach a job search can open up valuable conversations and insights. This segment highlights the importance of thoughtful engagement in building a supportive network and gaining market insights.
"know so that's part of the shared learning environment I'm asking you to do these but with others who are you're walking it through now once you have done that manuk and two pager and it's a draft you..."
Creating Listening Posts for Support
Phyl discusses how conducting a listening tour not only provides market insights but also creates a network of supporters. He emphasizes the importance of building relationships with those who can offer guidance and support during the job search process. This segment reinforces the idea that community engagement is vital for success in navigating job transitions.
"while you get a helpful piece of critique oh you're you you make everything a priority in which case nothing is you know and and you could work on that super helpful to know we all have stuff to work ..."
Leveraging Recruiter Relationships
Phyl shares strategies for leveraging relationships with recruiters during the job search. He emphasizes the importance of building connections even when not actively seeking a job. This segment provides practical advice on how to engage with recruiters to gain insights and support, highlighting the value of networking in the job market.
"feedback on what you want what you don't want what you hate what you're yeah what and what they're seeing in the market what they think you're fifth I see got it so it's like oh this is unrealistic yo..."
Building a Recruiter Network
Phyl discusses the initiative to build a recruiter network within the Never Search Alone community. He invites recruiters to participate in supporting job seekers by providing insights into candidate-market fit. This segment highlights the collaborative effort to create a supportive ecosystem for job seekers and the importance of giving back to the community.
"recruiter calls pick up the phone even if you don't want the job help them network with them tell you know introduce them to other people and build that relationship because whether you're you lose a ..."
Refining Your Job Search Approach
Phyl concludes this segment by emphasizing the need for job seekers to refine their approach based on market feedback. He discusses the iterative process of adjusting one's job search strategy and the importance of having a supportive council to navigate challenges. This segment encapsulates the overall theme of community support and strategic thinking in job searching.
"write this two page right now and listening to her what other benefits do you get out of this doing this exercise you build those relationships so you you now you turn people on as listening posts so ..."
Spear vs. Net: Job Search Strategies
Phyl introduces the metaphor of using a spear instead of a net in job searching. He explains that a focused approach helps candidates stand out, while a broad search dilutes their message. This segment emphasizes the importance of being specific about the roles you seek to enhance networking effectiveness and job search success.
"counsel because you're you're going to want every bone in your body is going to want that to be expansive to want it to be broad remember we're product people at least those of us in the Len's podcast..."
Navigating Job Market Realities
Phyl discusses the challenges of navigating the job market, particularly for those transitioning from established roles to startups. He advises candidates to rely on their job search councils and networks to gain insights and support. This segment underscores the importance of adaptability and understanding market dynamics in the job search process.
"spear and not a net with a net everything flips through now part two of this people are expansive but not reductive what are you talking about Phil here's what I mean if you give them a specific I say..."
Identifying Your Unique Path
In this segment, Phyl shares stories of individuals who successfully identified their candidate-market fit through networking and listening tours. He illustrates how understanding market demands can lead to unexpected career transformations, emphasizing the importance of being open to new opportunities and roles.
"goes if I were in the job search I'd feel the same way even with all the darn research I've done it's really hard you you been using this metaphor of approaching this like a product person and this is..."
The Importance of Flexibility
Phyl highlights the need for flexibility in job searching, especially as market conditions change. He stresses that candidates must be willing to adapt their candidate-market fit statements based on evolving industry trends and feedback from their networks. This segment reinforces the idea that job searching is an iterative process.
"because after you've done your listening tour and you've created your candidate Market fit and your Council signs off on it Lenny this is important right then you go back out to your listening tour an..."
Attributes of Candidate-Market Fit
Phyl outlines the key attributes to consider when defining your candidate-market fit, including company stage, industry, role level, and company culture. He advises keeping this statement concise and clear to facilitate effective networking and job searching.
"navigating this just to follow us thread a little bit more when someone is someone's thinking right now like okay what is my what are my attributes what are the what's on that grid roughly there's sta..."
Choosing the Right Company Stage
In this segment, Phyl provides guidance on how to determine the right stage of company for your career aspirations. He discusses the current job landscape, noting that startups often present more opportunities than established companies, and encourages candidates to align their preferences with market realities.
"your product to feel too exactly I need a a sock to compliance I'm gonna think of that's yeah exactly um okay so I'm thinking through this list here so I think so level and rooll I imagine people kind..."
The Two-Step Strategy for Career Advancement
Phyl shares a two-step strategy for advancing one's career, particularly for those seeking higher roles. He emphasizes the importance of gaining relevant experience and being realistic about market demands. This segment encourages candidates to be strategic in their job search and to leverage their networks effectively.
"and what I will tell you is that one thing to keep in mind right now is that there are more jobs in the startup world than there are in the established company okay in the tech world for produ people ..."
Real Talk on Job Market Challenges
Phyl discusses the harsh realities of the job market and the importance of being practical in job searches. He shares anecdotes of individuals who faced challenges in transitioning roles and emphasizes the need for support from job search councils to navigate these difficulties.
"your job search Council you know because otherwise you're gonna you're gonna get lost can I share one story about candidate Market fit that might be helpful to people I was coaching he was an EVP at a..."
Building a Supportive Network
In this segment, Phyl stresses the importance of maintaining a strong network during job searches. He encourages candidates to keep their contacts updated and engaged, highlighting that consistent communication can lead to better opportunities and support during challenging times.
"Justin was talking about this can be hard humilia of times to figure out you know we had we had another person who was a chief product officer in a startup and she was a great she helped me with the b..."
The Balance of Support and Realism
Phyl concludes with a discussion on the balance between providing emotional support and delivering realistic advice in job searching. He emphasizes the importance of community and accountability in navigating the job market, encouraging candidates to seek help while remaining proactive in their search.
"practical and realistic like I I didn't create this situation I'm just trying to report to you what the situation is and how you can manage it so that you don't get stuck I can't how many people have ..."
The Importance of Networking in Job Searches
Phyl Terry emphasizes the significance of networking during job searches, highlighting that job seekers should not feel isolated. He suggests sending monthly updates to your network to maintain connections and support, which can be crucial in navigating tough job markets.
"really not great is there anything else you can share to help people get past that of like okay maybe I really should be looking for an ICD rooll again again if you're if you're in a job search Counci..."
Understanding Market Conditions
In this segment, Phyl discusses the current job market's challenges, comparing it to past downturns. He reassures listeners that while the market is tough, building relationships and being proactive can lead to better job opportunities.
"passive one of the concepts Lenny I talk about is you've got to be the ion Village V there's no I in team well there is an ion Village okay and the ion Village is that when I'm saying you've got to as..."
Finding Your Candidate-Market Fit
Phyl explains the concept of candidate-market fit, sharing success stories of individuals who found their ideal roles by understanding their strengths and aligning them with market needs. He encourages job seekers to actively seek feedback and refine their approach.
"and I can't change that but I can provide tools I can provide Community I can provide heart and smarts so that you can get the best job you can get right now speaking of advice is there anything else ..."
Creating Your Job Mission with OKRs
Phyl introduces the idea of crafting a personal job mission and objectives and key results (OKRs) before interviews. He explains how this proactive approach can impress hiring managers and clarify expectations, ultimately leading to better job fit.
"guarantee that you're going to get three offers within three weeks right I'm not saying that some of you it might take you six months or year and the more senior you are Lenny the longer it is if you'..."
Negotiation Tactics for Success
In this segment, Phyl shares negotiation strategies that focus on collaboration rather than confrontation. He advises job seekers to discuss their needs for success in a new role, including addressing potential challenges like tech debt, to set themselves up for success.
"other ways or benefit themselves in other ways benefit them and me that'd be awesome let's talk about some other tactics you mentioned this idea of playing to win and I think within that there's this ..."
The Power of Proactive Communication
Phyl emphasizes the importance of proactive communication during the negotiation process. He encourages candidates to present their job mission and discuss necessary resources with hiring managers, fostering a collaborative environment that can lead to better outcomes.
"okrs now most job descriptions they suck Lenny the company doesn't know what the f they're doing they don't know thatly what they're looking for and so but I'm not telling you to say that to them just..."
Setting Up for Success in New Roles
Phyl discusses how to negotiate for resources and support that will ensure success in a new position. He shares examples of how addressing team needs and training can lead to better job performance and career advancement.
"want these folks to understand we talked about civil medals Lenny in the job search the civil medal sucks at the Olympics hey it's pretty good you get to be on the podium but guess what silver medal i..."
Understanding the Hiring Manager's Perspective
Phyl provides insights into what hiring managers look for in candidates. He explains how demonstrating initiative and accountability through a well-prepared job mission can distinguish candidates in a competitive job market.
"manager um if you know maybe it's an 800 base if you know if you're more senior whatever it might be I want you to go and talk to the Hing manager if possible not the hopefully not the recruiter that ..."
Demonstrating Value in Job Negotiations
In this final segment, Phyl wraps up by reiterating the importance of showing potential employers that you can deliver results. He stresses that by aligning your needs with the company's goals, you can create a compelling case for your value during negotiations.
"debt so this person asked I need $10 million budget in order to address this Tech debt yeah I see so it's not like I believe we will save $10 million if we spend on time it's like here's how much this..."
The Power of Collaborative Conversations
In this segment, Phyl discusses the significance of having collaborative conversations during salary negotiations. He advises candidates to approach discussions with hiring managers openly and to express their needs for success in the role. This approach not only demonstrates initiative but also helps build a positive relationship with potential employers.
"obviously so I want you to do that first and then okay so then let's talk money now 87% of the time Lenny when you ask for more money you get it now that's a that's a long longitudinal IC meaning over..."
Negotiation Strategies: In-Person vs. Email
Phyl emphasizes the importance of negotiating salary in person or over the phone rather than through email. He explains how direct communication with hiring managers can lead to better outcomes and encourages candidates to discuss their needs before salary talks, fostering a supportive dialogue that can benefit both parties.
"conversation I'm talking about what you need to succeed showing them that you're thinking about resources support budget that will help you deliver on the things that you signed up for and then asking..."
The Gratitude House Exercise
Phyl introduces the Gratitude House exercise, encouraging job seekers to reflect on the people who have supported them throughout their journey. This exercise helps build confidence and reminds candidates of their worth, which is crucial when entering negotiations or interviews.
"behind the scenes if you do that not guaranteed but more like you know yeah yeah that's totally true because often times you don't really have like a specific budget as a hiring manager right so to yo..."
Overcoming Imposter Syndrome
In this segment, Phyl discusses the impact of imposter syndrome on job seekers. He shares personal anecdotes and emphasizes the importance of recognizing one's achievements and support systems. By addressing these feelings, candidates can approach interviews and negotiations with greater confidence.
"that listeners of this podcast can get an exclusive 30-day dovale Pro trial today just go to Dov tale.com Lenny that's dovet tale.com Lenny while we're on this topic of negotiation and comp is there a..."
Building Confidence Through Support
Phyl highlights the role of job search councils in providing emotional support and building confidence for job seekers. He stresses that feeling supported can significantly improve performance during interviews and negotiations, helping candidates to present their best selves.
"that interview the other thing I say with the interview and the negotiations is you've got to go do a debrief right afterwards Lenny because we all have these cockamamy ideas about what happened we th..."
The Importance of Asking for Help
Phyl discusses the importance of asking for help and how it can transform one's career. He shares personal experiences of seeking assistance during difficult times and emphasizes that asking for help is a strength, not a weakness. This mindset can lead to valuable connections and opportunities.
"councils are like a light therapy for yes I wouldn't say I wouldn't never want to say the word therapy because of course that implies certification and training but there's a a therapeutic aspect to i..."
Effective Networking: The Right Approach
In this segment, Phyl explains how to network effectively by asking for advice rather than direct favors. He shares insights on how to approach influential individuals and the importance of doing your homework before reaching out. This strategy can lead to more meaningful connections and opportunities.
"said that thank you Lenny so yeah so we're on this topic of playing to win and what you just said is kind of along the same lines is just remember you're playing to win you're not trying to lose you'r..."
Navigating the Job Market with Confidence
Phyl wraps up the discussion by reinforcing the idea that job seekers should approach the job market with confidence. He encourages candidates to recognize their value and to leverage their support systems, including job search councils, to navigate challenges effectively.
"without them and some of my other friends and my teachers like you know I was I I was you know I worked a full-time job by the age of 16 and I was going to high school and I was in a tough situation a..."
The Counterintuitive Nature of Help
Phyl Terry explains the counterintuitive rules of asking for help, asserting that it is a giving activity rather than a taking one. He shares examples from his experience in product councils, demonstrating how asking for feedback can foster collaboration and mutual respect, ultimately benefiting both parties involved.
"if you do it well if you've done your homework you know and you're open oh my gosh there's four counterintuitive rules here asking for help is not a sign of weakness it's a sign of confidence it both ..."
Transformative Lessons from Asking
Phyl recounts stories of successful leaders who embraced the practice of asking for help, including notable figures like Brad Smith and Ken Chenault. He emphasizes that learning to ask for assistance is crucial for career advancement and personal growth, debunking the myth that it reflects weakness.
"it something I did not understand when my mom was trying to tell me to do this Lenny and it took the experience to drill into my head and then I will tell you like I will I won't name names but one pe..."
The Fear of Asking: A Common Barrier
In this segment, Phyl discusses the fear many junior professionals have about asking for help, linking it to their career stagnation. He presents data showing that a significant percentage of individuals in junior roles hesitate to seek assistance, highlighting the need for a cultural shift in how asking for help is perceived.
"boom boom stock price goes up sevenx in his tenure okay Ken Chanel an American Express joins in the 1980s one of you know one one of the few African-Americans in professional roles there ends up as a ..."
Practical Examples of Asking for Help
Phyl provides practical examples of how to ask for help effectively in various situations, from reviewing emails to seeking advice on projects. He emphasizes the importance of context and relationship dynamics, encouraging listeners to approach requests thoughtfully and with clarity.
"of weakness perfect it's literally the same number if we can believe that I couldn't believe it when I did the data I was like what but it's really it's and guess what if you don't learn to ask for he..."
Peer Coaching: A Powerful Tool
Phyl discusses the concept of peer coaching calls as a valuable resource for professionals seeking guidance. He shares how these structured conversations can help individuals navigate new roles and challenges, reinforcing the idea that collaboration and shared experiences enhance learning and growth.
"eyes on right there's a woman who became the president of a digital retail in the United States about 5 years ago and Lenny she realized that she had significant technical debt and the project that th..."
Building Relationships Through Help
In this segment, Phyl emphasizes the importance of building relationships when asking for help. He shares insights on how to approach potential mentors or colleagues, highlighting the significance of emotional intelligence and trust in fostering meaningful connections.
"you to do a first first 90 days call now let's say you're a director product in a job is going well and you want to get to a VP a product role well then I want you to do a career Evolution call where ..."
Navigating Help Requests with Care
Phyl advises on how to navigate help requests thoughtfully, stressing the importance of understanding the dynamics of relationships. He encourages listeners to be honest about their needs and to approach requests with a mindset of mutual benefit, ensuring that both parties feel valued.
"see yeah they share one more that's that's so great so Bradley Horowitz joined Google in 2008 as director of product right so he come from Yahoo there you know he was he was initially intimidated he h..."
The Art of Vulnerability in Asking
Phyl discusses the art of vulnerability when asking for help, sharing a personal anecdote about his early experiences at Google. He illustrates how open and honest questions can foster trust and lead to deeper connections, ultimately enhancing collaboration and support.
"thoughtful about this he was picking up vibes from Sundar that he was very approachable that he lacked guile he you know Bradley told me Sundar just made it easy for him to say hey after one of these ..."
Final Thoughts on Asking for Help
In this concluding segment, Phyl reflects on the overarching theme of asking for help throughout the conversation. He reiterates the transformative power of seeking assistance and encourages listeners to embrace vulnerability as a strength, paving the way for personal and professional growth.
"difference in terms of his entry into Google and eventually led him to the VP product role of course suar came into the CEO role down the road but that's that's what I'm talking about right but you ne..."
The Importance of Community in Job Searching
Phyl Terry emphasizes the critical role of community in the job search process. He discusses how job search councils and supportive networks can provide a safe space for individuals to seek help and share their experiences. Phyl highlights the emotional aspect of job searching, encouraging listeners to trust their instincts when asking for assistance and to be honest about their needs.
"search advice in the job search Community I said I can't I can't do that I can't skip that that's what the job search Council and the slack Community is there for you know I appreciate you asking but ..."
Navigating Job Search Anxiety
In this segment, Phyl Terry addresses the common feelings of anxiety and insecurity that accompany job searching. He reassures listeners that these feelings are universal and rooted in the nature of the job market. Phyl encourages individuals to seek out job search councils to combat isolation and to realize that they are not alone in their struggles.
"advice yeah a lot of times it's just yeah okay if this is just a favor for you absolutely yeah I mean if people would say to me you know I have a favor to ask you know would you be like yeah most of t..."
The Cookbook Approach to Job Searching
Phyl Terry likens his book on job searching to a cookbook, emphasizing that simply reading it won't yield results. He stresses the importance of actively engaging with the material and participating in job search councils to truly benefit from the advice given. This segment highlights the necessity of taking action in the job search process.
"anything else and then I'm going to ask you to share all the things that you do for people that maybe could benefit from one of these other programs when when my book came out we did a we did a book p..."
Creating Your Unique Path
Phyl shares insights on how he navigated his career path, initially calling it 'project avoid getting a real job.' He reflects on the importance of forging one's own journey and trying unconventional approaches to career development. This segment encourages listeners to embrace their unique paths and explore alternative career options.
"point to leave with and just to build on exactly what you just said about me uh this uh strange life that I've created for myself I originally called it project avoid getting a real job because I was ..."
The Impact of Asking for Help
In this segment, Phyl Terry discusses the significance of asking for help in the job search process. He highlights how many people struggle with this and the benefits of being open about one's needs. Phyl encourages listeners to cultivate a mindset of seeking assistance and to recognize the value of community support.
"most popular episodes I've done I think it's going to help a ton of people but we're not done yet tell us about some of the other stuff that you've got going on you've mentioned product counsels you'v..."
Phyl's Community Initiatives
Phyl Terry outlines the various community initiatives he has developed over the years, including product councils and mentorship programs. He emphasizes the importance of creating safe spaces for professionals to connect and support each other, particularly for underrepresented groups in the tech industry.
"ago I started these product councils right and and by the way is I like to show this kind of Marty Kagan and I go back you know to the late 90s early he was actually a client of mine when he was at eB..."
The Role of Mentorship in Career Growth
Phyl discusses the lack of mentorship in today's professional landscape and how individuals can seek out mentors, even if they are 'distant' figures like Warren Buffett. He encourages listeners to study the lives and careers of influential figures to gain insights and guidance for their own paths.
"me up so I got B he mean what are you talking about no I'm leaving I'm leaving and I'm starting something and he started the Silicon Valley product group oh wow but um why am I saying that because tha..."
The Power of Art in Product Development
Phyl Terry shares his belief in the importance of art and creativity in product development. He discusses how exposure to art can enhance visual literacy and empathy among product teams, ultimately leading to better design and innovation. This segment encourages professionals to incorporate artistic experiences into their work.
"depression I think we need a place to come together that's not a conference with sponsors and people are all trying to sell each other we need a private safe secure environment to really talk does tha..."
Slow Art Day Initiative
Phyl introduces the Slow Art Day initiative, which encourages people to take their time in appreciating art. He explains how this initiative has grown globally and how it can benefit product teams by fostering deeper connections and understanding through shared artistic experiences.
"an associate Council program for ic's and and new managers we started that a couple of years ago it it focuses on women and people of color in lgbtq but not exclusively right so you can be you know a ..."
Final Thoughts and Advice
As the conversation wraps up, Phyl Terry shares his final thoughts on the importance of community, mentorship, and creativity in navigating the job market. He encourages listeners to embrace their unique journeys and to actively seek out support and inspiration from others.
"great team and amazing Mo Teresa Torres was one of the moderators of our private councils by the way and you know great friend and it's been on the podcast here as you know obviously great friend of y..."
Lightning Round Insights
In the lightning round, Phyl shares quick insights on his favorite books, movies, and interview questions. He emphasizes the importance of continuous learning and the value of storytelling in interviews, providing listeners with practical tips to enhance their job search strategies.
"years now but then I also have a series of other learning communities right so I'm just I'm you know I'm one of these people I like I read I'm if you ask me like what what one if you had one job title..."
Empowering Women in Law Enforcement
Phyl Terry discusses the impactful story of the first women recruited onto the police force in Mexico City during the 1970s. He reflects on how this narrative resonates with his personal experiences and the importance of representation in traditionally male-dominated fields.
"aul lules the blues it's about the first women recruited onto the police force of Mexico City in 1971 or two and it's it's you know it of course it speaks to me because 1970s these are women in the yo..."
The Kindness of Ted Lasso
Phyl shares his admiration for the show 'Ted Lasso,' highlighting its themes of kindness and the importance of asking for help. He emphasizes how the show normalizes emotional discussions, making it a valuable resource for personal growth.
"um oh the name just escaped me the American football coach who goes to England and becomes a soccer coach oh yeah uh that's how can I forget this I've recommended it so many times that's the guy's nam..."
Key Interview Questions for Senior Roles
Phyl provides a powerful interview question for candidates applying for senior-level positions: asking about a time when a senior hire failed. This question aims to uncover insights into company culture and hiring practices, helping candidates assess potential fit.
"it back with you it's about your favorite interview question you help a lot of people interview and interview better I'm curious if there's like a question that you've heard that you really like if yo..."
Effective Reference Checks
Phyl shares an innovative approach to conducting reference checks that bypasses legal complications. He suggests asking references if it would be a huge mistake not to hire the candidate, which can reveal valuable insights about the candidate's potential.
"okay and and hopefully they're going to have a good answer I have a whole bunch of questions in my book but I love that one I also love if you are on on the other side if you're hiring and you want to..."
Learning from Landmark History Books
Phyl discusses a groundbreaking series of history books by Robert Strassler that revolutionized how history is taught. He emphasizes the importance of usability and reader experience in product design, encouraging product professionals to seek inspiration beyond digital products.
"question I don't know if that resonates with you as much yeah so it's the idea if you don't hear back from them um they're not necessarily amazing yeah wow yeah so it's you know you're leaving that th..."
Books as Tools for Thought
Phyl shares his life motto that 'books are machines to think with,' stressing the importance of reading widely to enhance critical thinking. He encourages product professionals to engage with thoughtful literature to shift their perspectives.
"guy named Robert strassler who was a business guy he started teaching at a special high school for kids who were dropping out and he was teaching them some of the classics like herodes and Lucid exper..."
Joining Job Search Councils
Phyl encourages listeners to sign up for job search councils at phil.org, highlighting how these free resources can transform job searches. He emphasizes the community aspect and the support available for job seekers during challenging times.
"inspiration and thinking that you know because I don't want you all looking at the same stuff you're going to just create the same stuff so I love you know I love tools like cenly which I just didn't ..."
Transforming Job Search Experiences
Phyl discusses the mission of his organization to support job seekers, especially during tough market conditions. He invites listeners to contribute through donations or volunteering, aiming to create a supportive community for those in need.
"moment people ask me like is this good in the hard M this is born out of hard moments this in a great job market it's easier to say oh just take you know I can just grab a job you need to be more thou..."