"the following is a conversation with Michael malice this is a special holiday episode and it is made extra special because it's announcing the release of Michael's new book called the white pill a tal..."

"here's Michael malice we probably should have coordinated this better shouldn't we yeah I think so have you since this is a Christmas special a holiday special have you been a good or a bad boy Michae..."

"white pill a book you wrote which is um I've gotten the honor the privilege the pleasure of being one of the first people to read it you're the first so I'm really I don't know if nervous is the word ..."

"let me ask you uh let's start at the beginning at the end of the 19th century as you write the term socialist Communists and anarchists were used somewhat Loosely and interchangeably because the proph..."

"broad umbrella it's not used in the term that it means today of necessarily State socialism it just meant the idea of having Society scientifically run so you had a huge argument they're different Win..."

"the bad the bad aspect of white gloves is uh the blood stains them so you have to get new ones every time and now I glance flirtatiously after that's there I'm sorry okay marks go ahead so so there we..."

"to run everything ourselves we're the ones running it already anyway um and you know this was uh doing all the work and we're doing all the work so why why shouldn't we be getting all the benefit what..."

"people tend to think you know because we have these kind of prejudices or we only remember what's happening now but this was a I mean World War II well excuse me World War One got started with the ass..."

"good people and we want what's best for everyone um we're gonna make sure everyone's taken care of and you know they always talked about how much they cared about the little guy and so I'm sure some o..."

"lot harder but the argument there would be it's why it's it's not fair a term which in my view does not actually have a good meaning but it's not fair that because you were born a Rockefeller and I wa..."

"would use want to act the part that we would need to do and in fact Reagan had a great joke about this where there were two where uh there were two comma Stars I think in Moscow and one of them they'r..."

"man I think for example if I say someone which I agree with that if someone is innocent so proven guilty they're not literally innocent they're regarded in a legal context as innocent but that person ..."

"ever become the case do you think it would be possible if you were an intellectual uh like you are at the beginning of the 20th century would you be able to predict the rest of the 20th century no I I..."

"something that was not I I think very predictable the Great Depression in retrospect there were certain things that were predictable but it was not at all the case that it needed to last as long as it..."

"teach you you have a word little Michael Workshop yeah and how many people do you think are employed in this Workshop they're slaves yes I don't know how many elves are in the workshop uh I think the ..."

"like almost the whole that whole rat race of uh chasing material possessions and all that gets put on hold for beef moment it just all goes quiet but it's also about giving people material possessions..."

"this point just like you said right now I mean it seems like a I don't know if it's a fundamental characteristic of our society today or just societies throughout history but there is a cynicism you w..."

"how we're gonna pay for it and that kind of approach is so uh deadly and it it gnaws at you and I always I don't like giving people advice because I'm who the hell am I and also if I don't know the co..."

"lack complete creativity just like in the writing or locks yeah it's it's like you you didn't even use like a thesaurus for your book the same words over and over and over uh the the sad thing about t..."

"Russia and here just my whole life especially because I'm a weirdo I've been kind of told to um basically be less weird be uh um there's a kind of sense and where there's a certain path you're suppose..."

"my own and I understand their their mindset but it's like I'm not I wasn't you know I never was never hungry like maybe I couldn't I remember I'd have to wait on the subway because I couldn't afford a..."

"I think they are they are incredible people if you allow yourself to see it but they're flawed and so I tried to forgive them that said it is true that uh the people that are close to you especially f..."

"oh that's interesting but but the movie's so iconic yeah for sure but but still isn't there a deeply like philosophical it's kind of like David Foster Wallace novels isn't doesn't it doesn't Fight Clu..."

"um surprisingly well done is that like a passive aggressive compliment surprisingly well done well because Matt is very um aggressive on Twitter uh sure we follow each other and there was a lot of opp..."

"it's like this is Girls Just Want to Have Fun are you drunk what is it what are you what is in there I'm very cheeky I'm I have the holiday spirit even though it's not the holidays oh that's eggnog De..."

"to get like hurt or whatever oh okay like they open the thing it's like uh chair I don't know I don't know what I was thinking okay it was really odd I didn't know how to get rid of a chair it was bro..."

"agenda for example if I'm you know I could be a someone who has promoting a certain ideology but I'm in the payroll of a candidate or you know my Think Tank needs this to happen or I'm being paid for ..."

"of course the interesting thing about Twitter is also the discussion about free speech and so on I think it's interesting to discuss free speech and the freedom of the press from the context of the So..."

"a very rare uh uh combination and that pragmatism do you think that's ultimately where things go wrong sort of uh that's where you sacrifice the ideas pragmatism is in this case was good because by ta..."

"all right we've made our own kind of government if we can keep it because that was the big question you had an international blockade you had the white armies the tsars forces who want to restore zara..."

"and probably my favorite book of his which is animal farm and also in 1984. portrayed Trotsky as a a snowball in Animal Farm and Emmanuel Goldstein in 1984 is this embodiment of this evil that will al..."

"you run out of boats who's going to carry them uh eventually you run out of possible skate because uh it's it's my second language this English thing I'm a failed podcaster I'm a failure uh eventually..."

"example I use in the book an extreme example was there was a photography professor and he pointed out to his class and he was an older man that before the Revolution the quality of photographic paper ..."

"job of this um what is that like two minutes of hate or something like this you like lose yourself in the in the in the hysteria of it in the history so there's some level of which at first it's uh yo..."

"in totalitarianism applies to you know Dunder Mifflin I still can't believe you're wearing lipstick I'm not uh goes to show you can pull lipstick on a pig it's like a snowball I think you've just been..."

"this was sure this was an ideological division between the two but what happens in totalitarian countries it happens in any kind of like you know when you have intermingling of like religion and gover..."

"throughout the 20th century what was the relationship between communism and um Jews in the Soviet Union what in terms of anti-Semitism the ups and downs of anti-Semitism it seems like it lessened it w..."

"that that varies throughout his yes some like the degree of viciousness can cross the line towards like atrocities towards genocide right and that's that's the question of in why does this sometimes d..."

"I'm on social media and there's someone from any country and maybe their picture looks a little different they use the same anime picture as somebody else but they're putting forth their ideas you do ..."

"me crazy when conservatives are like you know Joe Biden's the worst president we've ever had like this is destroying America I'm like you have no idea how bad things can get the fact that you are in a..."

"that narrative is a very convenient one for people who are authoritarian um I know a lot of people who are Persian as I'm sure you do as well uh very hard-working very bright great people um and you k..."

"more of a feminist than seeing the women in countries like this fight for the right to education the right to dress as they please maybe we don't need them driving but you know that's okay there he is..."

"don't know how we ended up in Iran but let us let us stroll back to uh to Stalin taking power what role did the suppression of speech the censorship the suppression of the the freedom of the press hav..."

"newspapers is there was a lot of it was very monotonous because you know you had the same message over and over uh a lot of these papers were about kind of speaking to the lowest common denominator St..."

"scientists in The Sciences than if you had something that was Innovative because if you're Innovative it's like well how do I fit this in with the broader ruling ideology the problem totalitarianism o..."

"um and I asked him like did you know that he had this tumor she goes yeah yeah when people played him in the movies they would you know you'd make up there and she goes uh it was an old war injury and..."

"have been a strange experience there's stories of soldiers the the Red Army soldiers throughout World War II as they go to different countries even Romania but in Europe to just to to understand that ..."

"as soon as they would start filming the guy took the mask off and they'd film them they go you are lying you don't believe this you're putting this on for some purpose whether you're leaving the thick..."

"you're like misusing a crying wolf too much well it seems it seems to break the system makes me nervous because there's also like um well just if someone is a liar that doesn't mean literally everythi..."

"drug where you uh everything anything The Establishment says anything is that you should say anything in the mainstream says must be wrong because it comes from the mainstream I I have that line that ..."

"unfortunately where uh trust Central Trump's social media Outlet oh truth no truth yeah but he he forgot the name of it himself so he's like you gotta explain the jokes they've got to explain the joke..."

"causing Mass death that I think fed in very heavily to people's enormous sense of skepticism toward establishment sources speaking of the plague you opened the book with uh yeah that quote from Camus ..."

"taught that war is a last resort and yet when it comes to International Affairs it's always often a first priority and people are champing at the bit to start going in and killing people and what war ..."

"and it was going to be called the point of Tears live to the point of Tears yes but the title was giving me the point of Tears no I know but it does that from that one that's a good line right he has ..."

"wrote about women although somebody wrote to me and said that's a mischaracterization that he was actually very respectful yeah but he had that line if you're going before women bring a whip wasn't th..."

"amazing um I think transparency is what brought down in many aspects of Soviet Union and what will bring down what negative aspects of the regime we have here when you see the machinations behind the ..."

"think to me the important lesson is this is not a left to right thing oh not at all powerless yes and but and also the important lesson there I think at least in the case of Twitter in our society it'..."

"typo and they didn't they don't care they didn't fix it for the paperback edition here since I'm going through Amazon if there's a typo I can fix it live and it updates oh yeah yep you can just update..."

"doing it yourself instead of you're getting a big check from you know St Martin's Harper Collins penguin whatever are you also trying to use some kind of service to get it distributed to bookstores or..."

"copyright where everything was public domain and that and the thing is you forward you know you update it you get the information three days there's another problem within three days so it's weeks the..."

"pulled as paperback an ebook so with this book I was anticipating all right there's going to be some whatever I the thing with how it works is you have to upload it and hit publish and then you got to..."

"have no contact with them uh my buddy Tucker Max he had a company that did this and they basically helped people self-punch their own book they did the Goggins book I think you've talked to him haven'..."

"um and I feel if you know I don't if Anarchist handbook wasn't such a gigantic success um I would be much more nervous about the white pill but the fact that it was and that I saw it from start to fin..."

"nowhere so the other thing is you have to make sure you have enough an audience that you can move some copies what about only fans would you recommend authors how much money do you think you and I can..."

"killed him yeah spoiler sorry but that's a good way to die never giving in well yeah there's a lot of that in this book about the people who are like I'm not you're not gonna break me like I'm bigger ..."

"kind of fat but like not sexy fat it was yeah uh not really that jolly and kind of exhausted I really have not showered in a while but also funny I I remember I love telling the story how old I was an..."

"started to actually implementing some of the economic some of the policies in this idea of uh collectivization yeah what's the story of that in the uh in the 20s uh leading into the 30s what was this ..."

"their well-being and that's a threat to your power uh so Lenin let in an American organization the early 20s which was actually headed by Herbert Hoover of all people and after a while Hoover left bec..."

"the dark thing about the cool Ox like you said when it becomes abused when it becomes the the owl group is the clock is supposed to be uh wealthier than sort of the general right um farmer peasant and..."

"locks are according to grain so there they came like um in what became known to haldemore and Applebaum uh who's a great historian who unfortunately I disagree with a lot in contemporary politics but ..."

"she was a kulak sympathizer we saw kulak who was trying to shake us down for food because too lazy to work and she uh felt so bad for them so you might want to check in on jenya so yeah but in 32 and ..."

"with that and read it uh so he he does quite a bit of it's brief but extremely well researched writing about cannibalism there okay and that it was not uncommon during the Stalin imposed famine in the..."

"stories in there about um yeah cooking cooking your children uh the the other thing about cannibalism about famine in general that stood out to me that unlike a lot of atrocities is uh the people that..."

"um yeah there's a there was a scene in the book where um a lot of times people literally go crazy and there's a scene where Mom it's some nursing train station was nursing her kid and she was you know..."

"Village and I'll get to his story in a minute right before we started recording I got this book in the mail I ordered on November 28th from Great Britain it was the only copy available on the whole in..."

"in the mail um Christmas miracle it's a Christmas miracle we traveled they traveled together they travel together so this book's a diary of their travels why do you think so few journalists they was a..."

"literally constant you know every story it's going to be a fight so at a certain point you're just going to be like all right and you're going to pre-censor yourself you know if you know all right if ..."

"know he was kind of the dean of the press Corps in Russia and he made a point and the thing there's so many quotes I have from him um where he's not only denying that this Mass starvation is happening..."

"you know trying and and this isn't about famine but it's about Western skeptical about collectivization which is just simply a new way of farming and yeah it was a new way of farming and the results w..."

"York on the American side that it's just the flock of fish or whatever that all move in the same narrative right I think journalists would like to be the kind of people that have integrity so if they ..."

"this is this is the entire Machinery of it it's not it's that's modern journalism and I suppose at that time it was worse it was worse they weren't even doing the hard-hitting the uh the display of ha..."

"maintaining your narrative so you uh reference an apple bomb and say that quote starvation was not simply a consequence it was the goal and it was the law Stalin intended to break the ukrainians once ..."

"parents talked about a hatred by Ukrainian stores Russians oh yes oh yes I I mean I you know I I certainly having visited there this year because of the most recent invasion in February in February th..."

"created and now I think I mean I have complexity most of my family is from Ukraine so I have a and it's my understanding is grounded in um Soviet Ukraine but there's something in the last 30 years tha..."

"gave a clarity that wasn't there before no this is I was saying earlier how humans Define themselves by opposition so now that there's a war it's like okay this all this little stuff doesn't matter we..."

"that sense in America after 9 11 when we invade Afghanistan and Iraq and there was like if those Iraqis eftos Afghan people um whereas now I think it's completely opposite uh I think I also think a lo..."

"save them from the evil regime that's also very different from yes you know the holiday more and also there is dispute in the Press about the causes the consequences the victims the villains of Putin'..."

"European refugees to feed them because that's my concerns just keeping people fed uh there was none of that you know and and the the two people who kind of spoke the truth Gareth Jones was shot I thin..."

"you and so that's that's the dark I mean that's why people maybe maybe you can educate me on this but this is why I think people don't talk about um holiday more and other atrocities the the Great Lea..."

"we don't want to touch it what is it I think it's that what we refer to as the news is in the business of selling narratives right and The Narrative of the Holocaust is a very powerful one which is if..."

"you're kind of almost like having a movie with a cliffhanger and there's no sequel It's like what am I supposed to do here like this is not scratching that itch which for me what as a consumer of news..."

"and if the Holocaust was happening just inside that country inside of Germany or even if it didn't expand Beyond Poland yeah it would be like a footnote it wasn't many ways a footnote like many of the..."

"I mean two years mentally it was like two years since you spent with the time with it what um no almost three two and a half yeah and I I suppose it stages you much longer like you said your family so..."

"feed the Russian people they were selling it for export for hard currency um yeah I I think what the takeaway there and I think again this is something westerners and especially Americans don't apprec..."

"um and we don't really have that certainly anywhere near that scale and never have um certainly you know since since America uh has been a thing I mean it's it's it's and the fact that this is like th..."

"in the eyes of someone who's uh thinking about kill eating their own kids I mean and you see that face and you know it's you know not something some CGI it it will haunt you forever just looking at th..."

"it so um uh uh everyone eats in like cafeterias so they're eating by themselves let's design buildings so everyone has to share bathrooms like their whole plan was to have eliminate any kind of concep..."

"know it became you there's certain things that became a crime then it became a crime to be a spouse of the enemy of the people now right away I as a child become an orphan because my dad was the name ..."

"thing is stalinu because at one point Stalin there's a picture of Stalin's daughter in his lap you know and she was at his house one day and Stalin calls up he goes get out of there immediately so he ..."

"people should get your book and audio what is your audiobook coming up it's in a couple weeks so I'll be out shortly yeah uh you gave me the great honor of uh voicing this man that's for the promo yea..."

"it's crazy like it's like I I'm not I'm not saying Peter right I don't I I don't know I'm not saying he's a good person but it's kind of insane that someone can do things that everyone listening to th..."

"position but he had his love there was this one funny I'm using the word Loosely quote when Hitler invades Russia and he couldn't believe it and he's just missing an action for days because how could ..."

"which is only going to go so far or really just crushing people's spirits so uh like a forced homogeneity yeah and the other big thing a big element of Soviet culture and the Soviet mythology I mean h..."

"that in America New Jersey is different than Texas is different than California you don't think Americans are higher trust more kind Society than Russia even today the higher trust uh listen I'm not g..."

"how would you define the Iron Curtain there's a there's this a set of ideologies a set of countries United by an ideology and a set of countries you know by a different ideology and um there's a curta..."

"these wonderful things are happening the universal consensus at the time is it's never going to happen or if it does have gonna happen it's gonna happen only through an enormous amount of Carnage and ..."

"history yeah just as surprising as the mass violence committed by uh like police and the Army on its own citizenry equally surprising is when they choose not to yeah somehow yeah and what is that what..."

"we can try to work together to kind of at the very least lower the the the the volume and the the heat how much credit do you give to Gorbachev the man so meaning how much power does a single individu..."

"kind of constant fear and they had opportunities and it's such a step forward uh um and there was this one great moment and I'm good there's a super Boris Yeltsin became president of Russia he's also ..."

"like you you it's like the equivalent of having a stroke yeah I do think that that's one of the most powerful things is the grocery the grocery store is that guy in terms of drawing a distinction betw..."

"I think you start the book with Iran yes yes yes as one does so before the Revolution she was born in in in Russia and she witnessed the revolution uh and moved uh to the United States in the 20s 26th..."

"because you can't have um economic planning if I don't have a price mechanism I don't know how price is what is me knowing as a consumer or a producer what should be produced or what had there's a sho..."

"and same thing with even if you just have like let's go socialized Healthcare you're going to have to make it illegal for doctors to practice privately you're going to have to have rationing so on and..."

"books my disillusionment in Russia and my first dissolution in Russia uh he wrote the Bolshevik myth and she was in England and she gave a speech and she's just like if you guys think this is for the ..."

"this is the opposite of America then by definition it's good and the the other binary that they bought into is you know the Nazis and the uh the fascists hate the Communists and the Communists it's tr..."

"and strong I'm like what are you talking about we I mean look this was the Soviet Union and it it happened you know relatively quickly and and relatively uh peacefully I mean again and it wasn't becau..."

"and it was like a matter of weeks the entire government resigned and then they liberalized it's just so many things about just overnight uh just change for the profound better um and you know people a..."

"overcome and I think the the division in geopolitics currently with Russia China and the United States particularly uh China and the United States can be overcome and I think that requires great leade..."

"I I it's so hard for me as someone who's a hopeful person not by my nature I'm not you know Michael kindness who does work for random house or at least he died last time I talked to him I look at even..."

"uh 2023 and also for New York to get nuked so those two things could be accomplished can I go back and switch the order because I think New York won oh the jokes the jokes and one day friends if you u..."