"I mean we actually avoid the thoughtworks we avoid the term best practices um because it's a very loaded term I mean why would you ever do anything other than the best practice I'm going to use some n..."

"much for joining us today it's great to have you here he it's uh fun to be on the podcast uh I'm glad to know I'm not entirely a fossil people still want to talk to me well I've uh I've had a lot of g..."

"two-part answer to this we'd love to know why you were motivated to write it in 1999 maybe describe the computer science Industry back then but then also let us know why you felt the need to do a seco..."

"at the heart of the problem we knew we needed to go to a more iterative approach to writing software where we could actually build a bit get it into production see what happened and cycle it maybe doi..."

"concrete then I had the opportunity to be on the sefre project Chrysler comprehensive compensation with Kent Beck and this was a project that really launched a lot of the kinds of programming styles t..."

"everybody about this I wanted to say hey you've got to know about this stuff and they would say so where do I go to for information and I go well there's nothing there and I talked to Kent and he was ..."

"um well you don't need to be scared about changing your code if you've set up the preconditions absolutely absolutely and that's that's part of the thing that's always hard to express to people it it ..."

"imaginative at coming up with bugs in I program trust me on this and and that's that's uh it's great thing so did did I review do refactoring at all before reading the book not in the way you recommen..."

"Nan who you on that um so where I've used it extensively actually is on personal open source projects I think partially because you could see my code and so I thought just out of respect I should have..."

"infrastructure like I I've mentioned this before but go is my favorite programming language and test is testing is a first class citizen uh it also compiles really quickly so it's really like ergonomi..."

"vocabulary for it until I read refactoring though which it was kind of interesting it was like a lot of like these all F felt correct I kind of I was from the devops world so we did a lot of test Auto..."

"know what bugs are getting introduced in the future right so I will and it it did directly influence how I do it now and I think I even shared on the podcast a story where I was working with an Apache..."

"refactoring and I think before I would have just said well it be nice to change this but why risk it yeah because the it's the critical code at the center of the business which is the most important s..."

"processes because there's a feedback loop going on once you've got the computer and suddenly you realize oh this thing that was hard before now becomes easy um and I have to reconfigure my way of work..."

"there are other processes that do that there are plenty of things in life where you do have to do this sense response where the unknowns are just too much out there and you just have to do a little bi..."

"lot of us worked independently we typically worked in pairs off independently um but we had lots of things like these social contracts where we would make sure that you know we knew that if we indepen..."

"was the case I I read a lovely book a while ago that talked about the origins of food safety in America in the late 1800s because it was quite common in those days that you know when the milk started ..."

"can remove a lot of friction from the process um and and that has happened that's actually part of the challenge of our broader civilization is we're building up ways in which we can trust people we c..."

"and that's and that then it says and important things about the kind of people you work with at at Fort works one of the things that Drew me to the company back 20 years ago when I joined was they rea..."

"um I mean where you know when I think of um you know an interesting example if I think back to that C3 project a large part of what built the trust was having a group of people that ended up self- sel..."

"help but I mean then we're talking much more sociological area that I'm not an expert in right in terms of building shifts more widely but I can certainly say that where I've seen projects with diffic..."

"your book is just the roughly authoritative Source on it but you had heard of the term refactoring before the term had been around for quite a few years beforehand there's a post on my website called ..."

"much out of that group and the small talk Community um that that led to the term well so to answer your question I have the term refactoring I think if I said that to any programmer I've ever worked w..."

"and so I I think that's what surprised me when reading this book because despite having worked with lots and lots of great Engineers over the course of my career not I have never heard someone kind of..."

"opportunities uh again going back to that fintech company uh we had a fundamental uh initiative based on um introducing inversion of control which made it a lot easier for our devops um deployment pro..."

"example where a lot of times early on you might just like spin up a database or have it access to certain things which is you know disastrous when you actually want decoupled testing patterns um and s..."

"and then realized this was an accident right and those are the those are the scariest ones because you end up getting these weird uh what is it conance of you know timing or other weird things that wo..."

"interesting because I think a lot of people kind of hide behind like oh this is a best practice and I think what's funny about that is a lot of times when people do say this is a best practice they're..."

"conclusions yeah that makes sense I mean there there's a a common pattern you see in when people talk about learning where early on you kind of just follow rules relatively um straightforward way um a..."

"important part of patent's thinking of course is that the idea of a patent was only an appropriate solution given a particular context so you had to understand the context in order to decide whether i..."

"wouldn't want to use Version Control finish anything these days I mean there was a time when setting up a version centralized server and all the rest of it was actually a fair bit of work but now it's..."

"experience um and but on the other hand what best can you do I mean I I hope I wrote as clear a description as I could in the book the fact that there haven't been really any competitive books that ha..."

"is very impressive so actually that that leads to a slightly broader question so to what do you see of the role of books in educating developers compared to other resources like things on the web or v..."

"uplifted Twitter I feel like garbage um and then books with for software engineers in general um because it was something we had debated kind of when we were starting this podcast is you know and as a..."

"there are just so many books we've read where even if they're I think again there are ideas that if they were scroll by in my Twitter feed I say got it I agree with that but then after engaging with i..."

"important that I find the people who are still on do doing the day-to-day and help them express what they know and they learn right but I think also there is a ground that is a kind of a middle ground..."

"the ground in the right amount of level and then says okay we've got this area covered um I wrote around the same time I wrote a an article on branching pattern I mean how how to deal with software br..."

"part of how I design my books um but I think we can actually do that because with a book publishes it's very hard to get them to think in smaller sizes I was very lucky that one of my early most succe..."

"still valid in 10 years time put that out there right and I think there's a lot of room for that kind of thing and that's hard to do with books but still needs to be written done with words I think I ..."

"a lot of let's talk about the latest controversy of the week programming podcasts right and there's even a lot of like interview other programmer podcasts um but there there aren't a ton of podcasts w..."

"listen yeah and I I books do encourage that um but but I think there are good places on the web I try to be one of them I think I'm not only one that also tries to do that and and one of the things I ..."

"opinion on uh some of what you think are the best essays or blog posts to cover because uh we've discussed that as doing that on the podcast well I mean Martin we thank you so much for coming on I mea..."

"process onof soft ware engineering at the moment so I strongly recommend it um to you and your offers uh so you and your listeners um to go for so that's my that's my down the-middle software developm..."

"or more commonly whether it's lawyers writing a contract for some commercial agreement that we come across all the time because what are you doing when you're writing these agreements you're trying to..."