
52 segments available
Michael Strong has spent decades quietly revolutionizing education by designing innovative schools and programs built around agency, critical thinking, entrepreneurship and creativity. He is the founder and CEO of The Socratic Experience, a virtual school that equips students for lifelong happiness and success through Socratic dialogue. Alongside his work in the US, he has educational consulting experience in multiple developing nations. And… he’s a fellow Minnesotan! Michael joins the show to discuss whether Socratic education can scale, the benefits of the Mormon model, why high agency is the default, and MUCH more! I hope you enjoy this conversation as much as I did. For the full transcript, episode takeaways, and bucketloads of other goodies designed to make you go, “Hmm, that’s interesting!”, check out our Substack - https://8ca54796.streaklinks.com/CJPd0z7cXCh07hc4JAiMaKTC/https%3A%2F%2Fnewsletter.osv.llc%2F. Important Links: - Michael’s Substack - https://michaelstrong.substack.com/ - Twitter - https://x.com/flowidealism - The Socratic Experience - https://socraticexperience.com/ Show Notes: 0:00:00 Intro 0:01:05 Main podcast 0:02:33 One book a night and mental chess - a Minnesotan childhood. 0:08:16 Can Socratic education scale? 0:13:32 Are we entrenching a new elite? 0:17:54 Why high agency is the default 0:24:51 Creating new subcultures & the benefits of the Mormon Model 0:34:35 Experimenting our way to prosperity 0:40:06 Tearing down the citadel, secret censorship & claiming the moral high ground 1:00:02 Prediction markets & why we should be betting on our reputation 1:22:40 The heroic tradition of reason 1:33:03 Michael as World Emperor Books Mentioned: - Dr. Semmelweis vs. the World - https://newsletter.osv.llc/p/dr-semmelweis-vs-the-world (Infinite Loops Substack) - Ignore. Fight. Ridicule - https://newsletter.osv.llc/p/ignore-fight-ridicule (Infinite Loops Substack) - The Habit of Thought: From Socratic Seminars to Socratic Practice; by Michael Strong - Be the Solution: How Entrepreneurs and Conscious Capitalists Can Solve All the World's Problems; by Michael Strong and John Mackey - The Case Against Adolescence: Rediscovering the Adult in Every Teen; by Robert Epstein - The Status Game: On Human Life and How to Play It; by Will Storr - The New Inquisition: Irrational Rationalism and the Citadel of Science; by Robert Anton Wilson - Hierarchy in the Forest: The Evolution of Egalitarian Behavior; by Christopher Boehm - Collective Illusions: Conformity, Complicity, and the Science of Why We Make Bad Decisions; by Todd Rose - Can Gambling Save Science? Encouraging an Honest Consensus - http://li.mit.edu/Stuff/CNSE/Paper/Hanson90.pdf; by Robin Hanson - Skin in the Game: Hidden Asymmetries in Daily Life; by Nassim Nicholas Taleb - Hothouse Earth: An Inhabitant's Guide; by Bill McGuire - Think in Bets: Making Smarter Decisions When You Don't Have All the Facts; by Annie Duke - The Ultimate Resource; by Julian L. Simon - Keep Your Identity Small - http://www.paulgraham.com/identity.html; by Paul Graham
Michael Strong discusses how traditional education systems have systematically deprived young people of their agency. He reflects on historical norms where children took on significant responsibilities at a young age, contrasting this with the passive learning environment created by modern schooling, which was designed to prepare students for factory work.
"it used to be the norm to take tremendous responsibility at 12 or 13 at puberty there was a right of passage and the young man was supposed to go out and Hunt his first deer people like Ben Franklin T..."
In this segment, Jim O'Shaughnessy introduces Michael Strong, highlighting his impressive accomplishments in education. Strong has designed innovative school programs that have significantly advanced critical thinking skills among students, showcasing his expertise in creating effective educational environments.
"shaas with yet another infinite Loops today's guest Michael Strong is one of like the most impressive people I have had the uh privilege to chat with um you are one of the most experienced designers o..."
Michael Strong shares his journey into education, emphasizing his passion for Socratic dialogue. He explains how his experiences led him to create The Socratic Experience, a program aimed at fostering critical thinking and agency in students through engaging discussions.
"you when I became aware of the cratic experience um and I'm a I'm a huge fan of the early Greek philosophers um and and I chuckled when I saw the name because we all know what happened to Socrates for..."
Strong reflects on his upbringing in Minnesota and the cultural influences that shaped his educational philosophy. He discusses the importance of culture in education and how his background has informed his approach to teaching and learning.
"your social Mobility cred is pretty amazing uh you were born to teenage parents your mom was a 16-year-old High School Dropout your dad was 18 and yet you got admitted to Harvard Yale and Dartmouth on..."
In this segment, Michael Strong emphasizes the impact of reading and mental exercises like chess on cognitive development. He shares personal anecdotes about his reading habits and how playing chess during long bus rides contributed to his intellectual growth.
"and the role of culture um so yeah my father was actually raised on a farm near finless in Minnesota and I I do think Scandinavian culture you Northern Minnesota hardworking Farm culture was amazing u..."
Michael Strong recounts his educational journey, detailing his experiences at Harvard and St. John's College. He contrasts the lecture-based learning at Harvard with the Socratic seminar approach at St. John's, which he found more engaging and effective.
"to study biology if they don't really read fluently so um I would say reading was the biggest thing know just the other thing is I had a uh 90minut bus ride to and from school up to baggley and then m..."
Strong discusses his role in leading Socratic seminars in inner-city public schools, highlighting the excitement and engagement of students when given the opportunity to think critically. He reflects on the transformative power of education in underserved communities.
"Dixon line integrated in the 1940s and the first black Johnny was asked um do they care about race at St John's and he said no they care more about if you're a platonist or an Aristotelian than if you..."
In response to a question about scaling Socratic education, Strong discusses the challenges and opportunities in expanding high-agency educational models. He emphasizes the importance of agency in education and how it can be fostered in various settings.
"Co hit I left to create the socratic experience so virtual program grades 3 through 12 3 through 12 for entrepreneurial intellectual and creative students so I can go a lot of directions but that's a ..."
Michael Strong provides a historical perspective on the concept of agency, discussing how societal expectations for young people's responsibilities have changed over time. He argues that high agency used to be the norm and explores the implications of this shift.
"of back up to some Universal issues and I'll go back to my particular project but I'm a big believer that um High agency is the norm for Humanity uh just going back to traditional cultures around the ..."
Strong highlights the role of early adopters in the movement towards high-agency education. He discusses various educational networks and initiatives that are embracing this model, particularly among tech elites and entrepreneurs.
"hadn't realized is Cowboys in the late 19th centuries were boys they were 12 13y old boys who out riding cattle so the expectations of maturity used to be so much higher and even things like brain dev..."
Addressing concerns about creating a new elite through high-agency education, Strong discusses the importance of accessibility and inclusivity in educational opportunities. He shares insights on educational scholarship accounts and the rise of homeschooling among diverse demographics.
"historically um tremendous agency used to be the norm and B we are seeing uh early doctors including and perhaps especially the tech Elite not just the tech Elite agile coders I know agile software tr..."
Michael Strong discusses the potential for global access to quality education through technology. He emphasizes the importance of teaching agency and self-directed learning to empower individuals worldwide to take advantage of available resources.
"great question so a couple of things um for one I'm very excited about educational scholarship accounts you know esas Arizona piloted this I believe two years ago now where they gave all 1.1 million s..."
In this segment, Strong addresses the challenge of motivating students who may lack agency. He shares strategies for fostering high agency in all children, emphasizing that most children are naturally inclined towards agency when given the right environment.
"um all kinds of things and there are a wide range of materials for all sorts of people to educate um going in a different direction my wife was from Africa she's from snagle she and I have a school in..."
Michael Strong critiques traditional education systems for training children to be passive and compliant. He discusses the negative impact of rigid schooling on boys, particularly those with ADHD, and contrasts this with more flexible educational environments like Montessori schools, where children can thrive as independent learners.
"at oari ventures is high agency uh and we have a bunch of different ways to test for it but uh how do you how do you deal with the unmotivated how do you deal how do you take somebody who um just uh n..."
Strong elaborates on the crisis of agency among youth, attributing it to both traditional education's bureaucratic nature and the rise of electronic addictions. He emphasizes the need for a deschooling process to help children regain their agency and become self-directed learners, particularly in a world increasingly dominated by screens.
"everything hunting and playing are basically the same they're sort of pretend hunting they probably don't catch a lot but they're out there doing it often the girls are either pretend or actually help..."
In this segment, Strong discusses how both school and home environments influence a child's agency. He notes that supportive environments foster agency, while rigid schooling and electronic distractions can hinder it. Strong shares insights on how to help children develop self-mastery and independence.
"medication and all of this sort of thing happening um so I'm very interested for instance in Monas you go into a Monas primary classroom you see three four five year olds moving about the room indepen..."
Michael Strong provides a historical perspective on public education, noting how it has become more bureaucratic over time. He contrasts past educational flexibility with today's rigid systems, arguing that the original intentions of American public education were positive but have since deteriorated.
"not agentic at school they're not agentic at home you know obviously homes where you you can go to regular school and if your home is very high agency no problem school is not an issue but if you don'..."
Strong highlights the importance of culture and subculture in education, using Utah's high social mobility as an example. He attributes this success to the Mormon culture's emphasis on agency and accountability, suggesting that similar secular models could be developed to foster social mobility.
"yeah I I was lucky I think as you know I was lucky enough to be in the first monor class uh in Minnesota and uh I I badly cut my hand when I was at monor and my mom told the story I don't actually rem..."
In this segment, Strong discusses how to build and sustain a virtue culture in educational settings without falling into orthodoxy. He emphasizes the need for alignment among school founders and the importance of hiring practices that reflect core principles and virtues.
"inquiry do lead to uh a broader education Etc but how do we take what what is a massive problem at least here in the west uh where that is no longer the case where kids are not growing up in household..."
Michael Strong warns against the dangers of educational orthodoxy and schisms that can arise in schools. He stresses the importance of maintaining core values while allowing for experimentation and flexibility in educational practices.
"the situation that we find oursel in today and I'm all for slaying dragons and and for you know the uh the Don keyote Quest but H how how does that how do we how do we get in and and change that so ag..."
Strong advocates for educational innovation and the need for diverse approaches to learning. He reflects on the historical context of education and the necessity of creative destruction to foster new educational models that prioritize agency and self-direction.
"forgetting which of the Great early entrepreneurs it was but there one those entrepreneurs I read an account of his him in the early 20th century where he didn't go to school until he was 17 went to t..."
In this segment, Strong draws parallels between educational success and the practices of religious communities, particularly the Mormons. He discusses how these communities foster personal responsibility and agency, suggesting that similar principles can be applied in secular educational contexts.
"point one point two is one of the things I'm really trying to get people to focus on is it is more about culture subculture and so forth rather than educational program and policy which sounds odd bec..."
Michael Strong challenges the notion that financial resources are the key to social mobility. He argues that agency and community support play a more significant role in helping individuals succeed, regardless of their economic background.
"other people to help us be accountable and the message I want to get to any family that's interested in Social Mobility again I was I was raised very poor sometimes we didn't have enough to eat I woul..."
Strong discusses the issue of video game addiction among teenagers and its impact on agency. He emphasizes the importance of self-mastery and encourages young people to take control of their lives, moving away from passive entertainment towards active engagement.
"quick rough on that one there's considerable evidence that um religious African-Americans do better in college than non-religious ones again it's interesting to me as a secular person that these and I..."
In this final segment, Strong outlines steps for founders of new schools to create a culture of accountability and virtue. He stresses the importance of clear principles and alignment among educators to foster an environment that supports agency and personal growth.
"sustain that virtue culture without it itself sliding into Orthodoxy because later in our conversation I'm gonna uh ask you about about that there there are a lot of incredible communities a lot of th..."
Michael Strong emphasizes the critical need for alignment among school founders to maintain a cohesive educational environment. He discusses how misalignment can lead to schisms and failures within educational institutions, drawing parallels to religious organizations. Strong advocates for making hiring and promotion decisions based on core principles rather than credentials, highlighting the importance of cultural fit in educational settings.
"we make room for crazy very different sort of case I've been extremely interested the vicy of San Francisco maybe not recently but you know 60s 70s ' 80s 90s early OD San Francisco was the place I thi..."
In this segment, Michael Strong discusses the necessity of accepting failure in the pursuit of progress, particularly in educational experimentation. He shares insights from his experience in asset management, where acknowledging past failures is crucial for future success. Strong argues that a culture of experimentation, even with the risk of failure, is essential for innovation and improvement in education.
"entrepreneur as a leader being able to make decisions based on the principles for which your organization stands articulating those principles really clearly and then yeah ultimately hiring firing pro..."
Michael Strong reflects on the current state of San Francisco, contrasting its historical openness with today's orthodoxy. He advocates for a revival of the city through principled advocacy and minimal barriers to entry, particularly in housing. Strong emphasizes the need for an environment that fosters open dialogue and experimentation to address the challenges facing urban governance.
"to kind of uh the original question of you used San Francisco as an example now San Francisco today is unfortunately an example of the very opposite of what it became well known for right it it is inc..."
In this thought-provoking segment, Michael Strong critiques the ideological capture of academia, referencing historical figures like Socrates and Galileo. He discusses the importance of freedom of thought and speech in fostering a healthy intellectual environment. Strong expresses concern over the suppression of dissenting opinions and the impact this has on genuine inquiry and progress.
"whether it's for-profit nonprofit you know if Government can do it right I'm okay with government I think it's harder for government to do it right but whatever it takes we need to support the promisi..."
Michael Strong draws parallels between historical McCarthyism and contemporary ideological battles, highlighting the dangers of politicizing discourse. He argues that this creates a divisive 'us vs. them' mentality that stifles true dialogue. Strong emphasizes the need for open conversation and the importance of addressing emotional beliefs with logical arguments to foster understanding.
"blame Academia I was appalled um when I was in graduate school in the 1980s I was first um exposed to Herbert maruza and maruza actually said we should we intellectuals We thinkers we academics should..."
In this segment, Michael Strong discusses the historical context of capitalism and its role in promoting prosperity. He critiques the emotional arguments against capitalism, emphasizing the necessity of secure property rights and minimal regulation for economic growth. Strong advocates for a balanced understanding of capitalism's benefits, particularly for developing nations, and the importance of fostering open debate on economic policies.
"that term uh in the 1950s uh there was a Senator named Joe McCarthy he decided that uh the state department and a variety of other institutions in America's political structure were hot beds of commun..."
Michael Strong explores the challenge of changing emotionally held beliefs through logical arguments rather than emotional appeals. He discusses the historical context of socialism and the importance of community sharing, drawing on examples from indigenous cultures. Strong emphasizes the necessity of secure property rights and minimal regulation for prosperity, particularly in Africa, while critiquing the left's stance on capitalism and its implications for economic growth.
"emotionally held beliefs right and and I wonder because the Socratic method and and logic and and all of that is pretty much the opposite of an emotionally held belief but like how do you change an em..."
In this segment, Michael Strong expresses frustration over the left's perceived neglect of Africa's challenges and potential. He argues that the focus on climate change overshadows the urgent need for economic development in Africa. Strong shares his transformative experiences in Africa and highlights the continent's entrepreneurial spirit, advocating for investment and support to unlock its limitless potential.
"that Point um you know Africa is the most regulated region in the world and people don't realize that one of my frustrations with Academia shutting down debate is there is an economic literature on th..."
Michael Strong discusses the overregulation in India that stifles economic growth, particularly in manufacturing. He contrasts India's potential with China's success in manufacturing, attributing the disparity to regulatory burdens that kick in at 100 employees. Strong critiques the social stigma surrounding free market discussions in academia, emphasizing the need for open dialogue about economic policies to foster growth.
"horrible so into that round I too am a huge fan of Africa and Africans I've been several times and it was literally a transformational experience for me um it from the investment side we are partnered..."
In this segment, Strong critiques the academic environment that discourages open discussions about free market capitalism. He shares anecdotes about Nobel laureates who felt pressured to conform to leftist views to maintain social acceptance. Strong emphasizes the importance of accountability in academia and the need for intellectual honesty in economic predictions.
"so Crystal Clear and so I think uh you know the truth ought to be predictive right and and when you look at outcomes it's very very difficult and now let me add the paren despite all of the problems a..."
Michael Strong discusses the concept of predictive markets as a tool for truth-seeking in economics and science. He references historical figures like Julian Simon and Robin Hanson, highlighting the importance of accurate predictions in establishing credibility. Strong critiques the inadequacies of peer review in academia and advocates for a system that prioritizes predictive accuracy over social conformity.
"you know I was at University of Chicago where with in econ it was totally okay to be free market capitalist but outside of the econ Department there was a tremendous hostility towards free market capi..."
In this segment, Strong delves into the complexities of social norms and how they shape individual beliefs and behaviors. He references Todd Rose's work on collective illusions, illustrating how societal pressures can lead individuals to suppress their true beliefs. Strong argues for the importance of exposing oneself to diverse perspectives to improve predictive accuracy and foster a more open dialogue in academia.
"uh Todd Rose wrote a great book called Collective Illusions in which he talks about this almost invisible and unintentional by the way Society has this way of creating norms and establishing Norms uh ..."
Michael Strong emphasizes the importance of promoting a positive vision of capitalism that transcends partisan divides. He discusses the role of prediction markets in revealing true preferences and the necessity of fostering an environment where diverse economic ideas can flourish. Strong advocates for a collaborative approach to addressing societal challenges through entrepreneurial capitalism, highlighting the need for moral high ground in economic discussions.
"know your brand andv is brand is harah another one you know we need as many people in this Positive Solutions oriented space as possible so thank you um prediction markets and you know reputational be..."
Michael shares personal anecdotes about the risks associated with putting one's name on a business. He explains how reputational risk can drive individuals to be more diligent and responsible in their ventures. This segment underscores the importance of personal accountability in entrepreneurship and investment.
"incentive to pay attention to that which will most likely lead to outcome predictable outcome yeah the uh it's one of the reasons why uh all but one of the companies I found it was my name uh because ..."
Strong recounts his experiences with criticism from the financial press during the dot-com bubble. He discusses the challenges of defending one's strategies against public scrutiny and the importance of resilience in the face of adversity. This segment highlights the emotional toll of public perception on business leaders.
"comfortable with going from genius to to genius back to back to genius back to and it it amazed me though and I was taking aack um when uh something that I had done uh was attacked pretty viciously u..."
In this segment, Strong addresses the need for resilience among entrepreneurs. He explores how individuals can be better prepared to handle setbacks and criticism. Strong emphasizes the importance of developing a mindset that embraces risk and accountability, particularly in the context of reputation.
"look at it if you compare the fund against its actual Benchmark you know a small cap growth Benchmark it's actually outperforming that Benchmark but you're comparing it to the NASDAQ and so the ultima..."
Michael discusses the potential of prediction markets to improve decision-making and foster accountability. He advocates for systems that incentivize accurate predictions and promote rational discourse. This segment highlights the transformative power of prediction markets in addressing complex societal issues.
"more people first I think the reputation for predictions alignment between predictions and outcomes first being willing to uh to take to make predictions and to take responsibility for the predictions..."
Strong tackles the contentious debate surrounding climate change and economic growth in Africa. He argues for the necessity of allowing developing nations to prosper while addressing environmental concerns. This segment emphasizes the importance of balanced discussions in the climate change narrative.
"the atmosphere around climate change debate in the public broad public is if you say anything then all of a sudden you're ostracized and so going back to the truth seeking I would like to see reputati..."
In this segment, Strong advocates for a culture of truth-seeking in public discourse, particularly regarding climate change. He discusses the need for open conversations that allow for diverse viewpoints and empirical evidence. This segment underscores the importance of rational debate in addressing global challenges.
"arguing maybe online or in the family whatever we probably get into Hyperbole and say things that are a little bit more exaggerated in the reality we're humans it happens but it's like okay now let's ..."
Michael highlights the significance of decision science in education and rational decision-making. He discusses initiatives aimed at teaching decision-making skills to foster better outcomes. This segment emphasizes the role of education in cultivating critical thinking and informed choices.
"not part of them I just want Solutions and the whole thing with predictions is which thing is going to work and I think we can create a large movement around which thing is going to work and as we dev..."
Strong concludes by discussing the concept of 'keeping your identity thin' to promote open-mindedness and truth-seeking. He argues that attaching one's identity to beliefs can hinder rational discourse and decision-making. This segment encourages listeners to adopt a more flexible approach to their beliefs.
"problem and that led me to actually change my view on nuclear power uh if you uh I had been like everyone else it seems anti-nuclear and then as the climate change thing heated up I was like huh I'm g..."
Michael Strong discusses the importance of decision science in education, highlighting the work of the Decision Education Foundation. He emphasizes that teaching students how to make rational decisions should be a fundamental part of the educational framework, promoting better decision-making skills.
"decision science she's um she's founded the or co-founded the alliance for decision education um we actually have a course taught by the decision Education Foundation who's close to them uh Chris pres..."
Strong reflects on Paul Graham's essay 'Keep Your Identity Thin,' explaining how attaching our identity to political or social groups can hinder our ability to accept disconfirming information. He advocates for a personal identity focused on truth-seeking rather than tribal affiliations.
"ubiquitous part of Education how do we make rational decisions um going back to kind of another po point of how we do this you know I love Paul Graham founder of Y combinator as an essayist as well on..."
In this segment, Strong warns against the dangers of attaching one's identity to beliefs, arguing that this can lead to a defensive reaction against new ideas. He encourages maintaining a flexible identity to foster open-mindedness and adaptability in thought.
"family in pursuit of the truth that's sort of very simp but you know um I'm not part of this or that team and just oddly uh I have no interest in sports and I know most especially most men love sports..."
Michael Strong discusses the legacy of Socratic reasoning and its challenge to authority. He highlights how Socrates' commitment to independent thought and questioning societal norms has shaped Western civilization and emphasizes the importance of this tradition in contemporary discourse.
"broadly yeah I like you really don't care for team sports of any kind I kind of like college football but that's for a different reason because my kids were interested and so I that was kind of fun bu..."
Strong emphasizes the significance of small acts of courage and integrity in building civilization. He argues that while great heroes are important, it is the collective actions of everyday individuals that truly contribute to societal progress.
"to a belief which is probably wrong by the way that's the other thing that that I often do I I often remind myself that you know if if you and I jumped in a time machine and we had already identified ..."
In a thought-provoking conclusion, Michael Strong shares two powerful ideas he would like to instill in the world's population: the importance of reputation in intellectual credibility and the value of agency in achieving happiness. He believes these concepts can lead to a more fulfilled and engaged society.
"far more open view of Alternatives and other ideas another thing I we're pretty deeply involved in Ai and investment in AI companies and one of the things that I love to do with it is create Steelman ..."