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Unorthodox frameworks for growing your product, career, and impact | Bangaly Kaba (YT, IG, FB)
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Bangaly Kaba was an early growth PM at Facebook, head of growth at Instagram, and VP of Product at Instacart and is currently Director of Product at YouTube overseeing a global team working on creator monetization. Bangaly has also been a growth advisor to dozens of companies, including Twitter, on the board of multiple companies, and is an active angel investor. In our conversation, we discuss: • A simple framework for choosing where to work and what to work on • The importance of “understand work” • The “adjacent users” theory and how it can help you drive growth • Advice for coaching product managers • Invaluable lessons from his time at Instagram, Facebook, and YouTube • Much more — Brought to you by: • Uizard—AI-powered prototyping for visionary product leaders: https://uizard.io/lenny • Mercury—The powerful and intuitive way for ambitious companies to bank: https://mercury.com/ • Vanta—Automate compliance. Simplify security: https://vanta.com/lenny Find the transcript and references at: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/frameworks-for-growing-your-career-bangaly-kaba Where to find Bangaly Kaba: • X: https://twitter.com/iambangaly • LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/iambangaly/ • Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/iambangaly/ Where to find Lenny: • Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com • X: https://twitter.com/lennysan • LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/ In this episode, we cover: (00:00) Bangaly’s background (06:31) Choosing where to work and what to work on (08:39) The impact factor (10:53) Evaluating the environment (15:53) The manager component (18:27) The skills part of the equation (23:49) Advice on finding a mentor (25:42) The power of “understand work” (31:17) Operationalizing understand work (37:55) Balancing understand work (41:25) Managing complex change (45:26) Effective management of product managers (51:35) The role of product managers as coaches and team leaders (54:52) Driving growth through flywheels and value proposition (01:03:14) Understanding adjacent users (01:08:41) The role of partnerships and SEO in Instagram’s early growth (01:16:08) The secret behind Instagram’s growth (01:25:37) Lessons from Facebook (01:29:15) Failure corner (01:31:58) Lightning round Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email podcast@lennyrachitsky.com. Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed.
Segments Timeline
Bangaly Kaba's Impressive Journey
In this segment, we introduce Bangaly Kaba, highlighting his remarkable career trajectory as an early growth PM at Facebook, head of growth at Instagram, and VP of Product at Instacart. He shares insights into his impactful work across various tech cultures and the framework he developed for driving change, emphasizing the importance of understanding work.
"you were early growth pm at Facebook you were head of growth at Instagram you're VPR product at instacart you're now director of product management at YouTube and I've heard that you've had a lot of i..."
The Framework for Impact
Bangaly discusses his framework for choosing where to work and what to focus on, which includes five key components: vision, skills, incentives, resources, and action plan. He emphasizes the need to understand the environment and personal skills to drive meaningful impact in one's career.
"set of variables related to the environment and set of variables related to your skills today's guest is Bengali cabba Bengali was an early growth pm at Facebook where he was responsible for how peopl..."
Understanding Work: A Key to Success
In this segment, Bangaly elaborates on the concept of 'understand work,' which he describes as the anti-pattern of simply justifying ideas without first grasping the underlying issues. He stresses the importance of understanding the situation from first principles before executing any plans.
"anyone looking to level up their product and growth jobs or also just do better in your career we dig into his framework for how to choose where to work and what to work on the importance of spending ..."
The Importance of Impact
Bangaly explains why impact is the most crucial variable in career decisions, arguing that it should be prioritized over compensation. He discusses how driving impact leads to greater independence and scope within a company, ultimately influencing career growth.
"it helps the podcast tremendously with that I bring you Bengali cabba bangali thank you so much for being here and welcome to the podcast thanks for having me excited to be here so many previous guest..."
Defining Impact in Product Management
In this segment, Bangaly defines what impact means for product managers, emphasizing the need for clarity in identifying product problems and opportunities. He highlights the importance of delivering results and validating impact through consistent performance.
"podcast yeah it was crazy I was like you know visiting a team that I managed there about to get back on the plane to go back to SFO and just standing there you know doing some work minding my business..."
Evaluating Your Environment
Bangaly discusses the environmental factors that influence impact, including management, resources, team dynamics, compensation, and company culture. He shares his method for evaluating these elements annually to assess their contribution to his career growth.
"people on the podcast just say they're going to be on the podcast and then the pressure will start oh yeah I mean totally okay so there's two broad topics that I want to spend our time on today I want..."
Scoring Your Work Environment
Bangaly introduces a scoring system for evaluating the key components of his work environment. He explains how this method helps him identify areas for improvement and understand the limitations affecting his ability to drive impact.
"then share with my teams in minutes and when I want to get really creative and explore totally new ways to improve our product experience I we can use Wizard's AI to generate New Design Concepts from ..."
Navigating Career Challenges
In this segment, Bangaly shares a personal experience from his time at Facebook, where he faced challenges due to an overwhelming scope of work and managerial changes. He reflects on the importance of recognizing when an environment is not conducive to success.
"plan visit u.io Lenny and use code Lenny to check out today that's UI Z D.I Lenny this episode is brought to you by Mercury Mercury knows your financial operations are complex it doesn't have to be th..."
Evaluating Your Impact Environment
Bangaly Kaba discusses the importance of evaluating your work environment to understand what factors may be limiting your impact. He shares a personal experience from his time at Facebook, highlighting how scope and management changes affected his ability to deliver effectively. This segment emphasizes the need for self-awareness and the courage to seek a better fit when the culture or management is not conducive to success.
"helps you to be honest around what are the things that are limiting your ability to have impact and for your skills to really land and to what extent do you believe that you can help to change or try ..."
The Role of Management in Your Success
In this segment, Kaba emphasizes that the manager is the most critical variable in a work environment. He explains how a great manager can help navigate challenges and improve team dynamics. Kaba encourages individuals to articulate their challenges clearly to their managers, fostering a collaborative approach to problem-solving and growth.
"fit for me A lot of people are in these situations where they go they say they go through this score they identify I have way too little scope way too much scope kind of like you described and there's..."
Navigating Manager Relationships
Bangaly Kaba provides insights on how to handle relationships with managers, especially when there is a disconnect. He suggests that while it's not necessary to like your manager, mutual respect and understanding are crucial. Kaba advises on the importance of understanding a manager's priorities and finding ways to align your work with their goals.
"variables and so really the question becomes like you know to what extent have you been able to clearly articulate what of the you know and dispassionately articulate what are the challenges that you'..."
Building Essential Skills for Product Management
Kaba discusses the critical skills needed for product management, including communication, influence, leadership, strategic thinking, and execution. He highlights the importance of continuous skill development and the value of being a voracious reader to build a robust toolkit for navigating the complexities of product management.
"they're trying to do I love that advice let's talk about the other side of this equation we've talked about environment let's talk about skills what do you advise there for folks that want to improve ..."
The Power of Diverse Mentorship
In this segment, Kaba shares his approach to mentorship, advocating for having a stable of mentors rather than relying on a single individual. He explains how meeting with different mentors regularly can provide continuous support and diverse perspectives, enhancing personal and professional growth.
"people is people think about mentorship as like I have a mentor many Lenny is my mentor or John is my mentor I tell them it's actually better to have a stable of mentors you want to have three or four..."
Learning Through Observation
Bangaly Kaba emphasizes the importance of learning from others in product management. He encourages aspiring product managers to observe and emulate successful practices from their peers and leaders. This segment highlights the value of being a student of both theory and practice in developing effective product management skills.
"recommend and then the last thing I actually talk about is when it comes to execution I think people don't especially product managers don't do enough of watching and learning from others there's an a..."
The Art of Effective Communication
Kaba reflects on the significance of communication in product management, sharing an example of a colleague who excelled at recapping meetings and fostering trust. He underscores that effective communication involves not only conveying information but also actively listening to ensure clarity and buy-in from team members.
"building skills is there an example of that latter lesson that you learn from someone that comes to mind of watching someone and like oh I'm gonna I'm gonna do that earlier in my career when I first g..."
Finding the Right Mentors
In this segment, Kaba provides practical advice on how to find mentors. He suggests that individuals should articulate their challenges and seek recommendations for mentors who can provide relevant insights. This approach fosters meaningful connections and enhances the likelihood of finding a mentor who can truly help.
"awesome example it comes back to the skill of communication that you talked about just the power of becoming really good at that and this is such a simple skill you just described is just recapping he..."
Understanding Work: A Framework for Success
Bangaly Kaba introduces the concept of 'understand work,' a framework for ensuring that teams grasp the key components of their projects before execution. He contrasts this with the anti-pattern of 'identify, justify, execute,' emphasizing the need for a deep understanding of user needs and market dynamics to drive successful outcomes.
"another right and I think um I I find that like just doing that and seing that and being really focused on what the opportunity or the challenge is tends to lead to better connections as opposed to ju..."
Operationalizing Understand Work
In this segment, Kaba explains how to operationalize 'understand work' within teams. He highlights the need for intentional planning and cross-functional collaboration to ensure that teams dedicate time to understanding problems before jumping into execution. By balancing execution with understanding, teams can improve their win rates and overall effectiveness in product development.
"things you ship you have a higher win rate on the things you ship right and you know you're you're shipping when I remember when I left Instagram this is many years ago but we had like had 15 teams an..."
Finding the Balance: Understanding vs. Execution
Bangaly Kaba addresses the challenge of balancing 'understand work' with execution in product teams. He shares strategies for managing expectations and ensuring that teams remain productive while also dedicating time to understanding the problems they are solving. Kaba emphasizes the importance of shipping products that are informed by data and insights to maximize impact.
"I think it like makes sense I think it's just no one does this usually everyone's like move faster we need more ship more experiments well I mean this is the this is the irony of growth as people thin..."
The Importance of Understanding Work
Kaba concludes this segment by reinforcing the significance of 'understand work' in driving growth and improving product outcomes. He shares a tactical example from his time at Instagram, illustrating how understanding user behavior through data logging can lead to more effective product iterations and ultimately higher success rates in product launches.
"big takeaway here is if you want to have more impact move faster try to spend a little more time understanding the problems you're going after in the opportunity space that's right right like I'll giv..."
Managing Complex Change
In this segment, Kaba introduces a framework for managing complex change, which includes five essential components: vision, skills, incentives, resources, and action plan. He explains how missing any of these components can lead to confusion, resistance, or false starts within teams. This framework serves as a guide for leaders to identify and address challenges in team dynamics.
"like just this concept of calling it understand work I think that alone is a powerful tool is we're going to spend more time and understand work gives people it feels like it gives meaning to stuff th..."
The Importance of Team Dynamics
Bangaly Kaba shares insights on the importance of team dynamics in product management. He discusses how to assess team challenges and the significance of having a shared vision and communication framework. Kaba emphasizes the need for leaders to observe and understand team dynamics to effectively influence and improve performance.
"what I love about this framework is is if you can visualize it maybe you can share it with your um podcast yeah we'll put it up on the screen on YouTube so folks can see what you're talking about it's..."
Building a Culture of Product Craft
Kaba reflects on his experiences at Instagram and YouTube, highlighting the importance of fostering a culture of product craft. He discusses how to establish a shared language and repository of skills within teams to enhance product quality and team effectiveness. This segment underscores the role of strong communication and shared understanding in achieving product excellence.
"I also have done over the course of my career is I've built this like um this deck of that comes with me of like different like how do like different skills that matter right like what are different s..."
Coaching and Developing Teams
In this segment, Kaba elaborates on the role of coaching in product management. He draws parallels between education and product management, emphasizing the need for strong communication and influence. Kaba discusses how to empower team members and the importance of nurturing talent within the organization to drive collective success.
"wrong thing and that kind of tells you which of these buckets to spend time on that's right and then within those buckets you've got to figure out what are the right lovers that you need to pull what ..."
Bloom's Taxonomy in Product Management
Bangaly Kaba introduces Bloom's Taxonomy as a framework for understanding critical thinking levels in product management. He explains how to assess team capabilities and identify gaps in knowledge and application. This segment highlights the importance of grounding teams in foundational knowledge to enhance their effectiveness and decision-making.
"it or not you know when I was interviewing for my first set of jobs in Tech recruiters would say to me how does your background relate like I don't really see it and I would tell them you know when I ..."
Identifying Product Management Challenges
Kaba discusses common challenges faced by product managers, such as the inability to apply knowledge across different scenarios. He emphasizes the importance of synthesizing information and understanding business context to prioritize effectively. This segment provides valuable insights into the complexities of product management and the skills needed for success.
"lot in trying to understand where where are my teams struggling do they have the core knowledge that they need do they understand it but they can't apply it are they applying it but they're not able t..."
Product Management as a Team Sport
In this segment, Kaba shares his perspective on product management as a team sport rather than a solo endeavor. He discusses the importance of role players within a team and the need for strong collaboration. Kaba emphasizes the value of coaching and developing team members to achieve collective goals and drive product success.
"strategy needs and so where to prioritize right and so what what I find is that like you know when you're trying to manage managers you're really trying to live the top of the pyramid you are responsi..."
The Legacy of Coaching
Bangaly Kaba reflects on the concept of a 'coaching tree' in product management. He discusses the importance of nurturing talent and the impact of developing future leaders. This segment highlights the significance of legacy in leadership and the responsibility of product managers to empower their teams for long-term success.
"people talk a lot about product as a you know you're the CEO and I don't actually fully believe that analogy you know if you think about as a team sport there's a few things that kind of shake out one..."
The Power of Flywheels in Growth
Kaba shares insights on how he approaches growth at YouTube through the concept of flywheels. He explains the importance of understanding the value proposition at different points in a multi-sided marketplace, focusing on both creators and viewers to drive growth effectively. His strategy involves connecting the dots in a way that clarifies team objectives and enhances overall impact.
"about growth uh within YouTube I heard that you you haven't been there for that long and apparently you've already 2x or 3x or more some something important within YouTube I don't know exactly the det..."
Understanding User Experience
In this segment, Kaba discusses the significance of understanding user experiences, particularly for new users versus seasoned ones. He highlights the challenges faced when introducing new users to a product and the importance of adapting the product experience to meet their needs. This understanding is crucial for driving growth and ensuring that the product remains relevant and user-friendly.
"that is often a product that you and I use that we've been using for years isn't actually the product that we're building for for other people like a power user who's using a product has so there's so..."
Adjacent Users: The Key to Growth
Bangaly Kaba introduces the concept of 'adjacent users'—those who are not currently using a product but have the potential to do so. He explains how understanding these users and their needs can unlock new growth opportunities. By analyzing user behavior and adapting the product to meet the expectations of these adjacent users, companies can expand their audience and enhance their market presence.
"stable and then occasionally you know like holiday time I want some peppermint bark chocolate or something you know but like it's not like it's like there's like random snacks you're going to throw in..."
The Importance of User Feedback
Kaba stresses the necessity of gathering feedback from potential users who are on the fringes of the current user base. He discusses how understanding their needs can lead to product improvements that attract new users. This proactive approach to user feedback is essential for companies looking to innovate and grow beyond their existing market.
"and why and then you also have to be the adjacent you def to use the product like them and see how it's working what's broken with it right and so at an instacart the adjacent user the original user m..."
Identifying Growth Opportunities
Kaba shares insights on where growth opportunities typically lie within a product's lifecycle. He points out that onboarding and habit-building experiences are critical for user retention. Many teams overlook the importance of understanding the 'aha' moment for users, which is essential for driving long-term engagement and reducing churn.
"so what I'm hearing is spend some understand work to figure out who your potential users are and then use the product as them and see what is missing uh I imagine user research goes into this you're n..."
Instagram's Growth Strategy
Bangaly Kaba reveals key strategies behind Instagram's explosive growth, including the role of celebrity partnerships and SEO. He explains how these elements worked together to create a compounding growth effect, enhancing user acquisition and retention. Kaba emphasizes that understanding the interplay between product features and marketing strategies is vital for sustained growth.
"that's the thing that helps you to compound over time right like if you're bringing a lot of people but they're not staying around then you just have a leaky bucket and like it doesn't matter how big ..."
The Role of Partnerships in Growth
In this segment, Kaba discusses how partnerships were a crucial component of Instagram's early growth strategy. He explains that the partnerships team educated celebrities on using the platform effectively, which in turn drove user engagement and media coverage. This collaborative approach significantly contributed to Instagram's visibility and user base expansion.
"we would do a bunch of paid media on top of that um using of those signals and so we would have and then we have our own content um and so you would have all of these different kind of growth engines ..."
The Impact of Web Presence
Kaba elaborates on the importance of establishing a web presence for Instagram, which was initially met with skepticism. He shares how launching a web version of Instagram not only improved SEO but also facilitated international growth. This strategic move proved to be a game-changer, enhancing the platform's accessibility and user engagement.
"with SEO right and so you know the idea of launching web really drove and actually increased Instagram's growth by 10% the minute we launched it and it was something that you know George Wang who was ..."
The Connections Pivot
Bangaly Kaba recounts a pivotal moment in Instagram's growth strategy known as the 'connections pivot.' He explains how the team recognized the need to prioritize user connections over celebrity endorsements to improve retention. This shift significantly enhanced user experience and engagement, leading to a doubling of retention rates.
"in Instagram Twitter that's right do you ever see the video of Alex XU talking about Tik tok's growth strategy of this whole he had this metaphor where and he was trying to grow off of Instagram so hi..."
Addressing Account Access Issues
Kaba discusses a major challenge Instagram faced regarding account access churn. He explains how the team worked to improve the login process for users who logged out, ensuring they could easily regain access to their accounts. This initiative was crucial in retaining users and reducing the number of lost accounts due to access issues.
"like okay this is a place for me right like I I have a community here um and so that connection pivot was critical it changed it literally angle changed the retention on Instagram and so if you like G..."
Solving Account Access Issues
Bangaly Kaba discusses a significant problem at Instagram where users were unable to log back into their accounts, leading to millions of users lost annually. He explains the solutions implemented, such as simplifying the login process and enhancing user experience, which ultimately drove millions of additional monthly active users and increased content creation on the platform.
"the interest rate doubles like every month you know what I mean like it was incredible this just this shift in making sure that people got connected with their friends early on changed the way way tha..."
The Importance of User Experience
In this segment, Bangaly emphasizes the importance of understanding user behavior and needs. He shares how Instagram's team created an Omni box experience for logging in, which combined email, phone, and handle inputs, and how proactive measures like sending text messages to users on trusted devices significantly improved user retention and engagement.
"this problem and we had spent a lot of time in South Asia and Southeast Asia trying to understand how to grow the product and from that time we realized that it's important actually for people to be a..."
Understanding User Behavior
Bangaly reflects on the unexpected outcomes of improving account access at Instagram, noting that it led to increased content creation across multiple accounts. He discusses how understanding user behavior and needs can lead to innovative solutions, such as the creation of a multiple accounts team to enhance user navigation and experience.
"being really thoughtful around like what is actually the core job that people are trying to do because a bad experience would have been like hey let's make it really hard for people walk out right and..."
Cultural Insights from User Research
Bangaly shares insights from his time at Facebook, focusing on user behavior in South Asia. He explains how cultural differences influenced user interactions with the platform, particularly regarding profile information relevance, and how this understanding led to more effective product recommendations and features tailored to local needs.
"I want to post as Lenny or I want to post as this other thing or when I want to write a story you know you can change anywhere that was all an effort that came originally came out of this real I love ..."
The Power of Understanding Work
In this segment, Bangaly discusses the concept of 'understand work' and its significance in product management. He recounts his experiences in India, where direct observation of user interactions revealed critical insights that data alone could not provide, highlighting the need for empathy and contextual understanding in product development.
"dominated North America and so really the focus area at the time was south Asia and Southeast Asia and you know we did and we noticed a lot of really interesting things especially in India Facebook se..."
Lessons from Failure
Bangaly reflects on his time at Instacart, discussing the challenges he faced when his vision for the product did not align with the company's operational strengths. He emphasizes the importance of understanding a company's culture and needs before taking on a role, sharing valuable lessons learned from this experience.
"information for you like that's where the information's supposed to be and they're like listen this guy's named Amit Kumar I have 10 friends named Amit Kumar right like what is this page going to tell..."
Navigating Company Culture
Bangaly concludes with advice on the importance of understanding company culture and dynamics before joining a new organization. He suggests speaking with former employees to gain a more honest perspective on the company's environment, emphasizing the value of triangulating information from various sources to make informed career decisions.
"with a vision of what I thought the product could be or should be and it was I think a big story that I deeply believed but I was not I think aware or in tune with what the DNA of the company was at t..."
Skill Stack Ranking in Interviews
Bangaly Kaba shares an innovative approach to interviewing senior product management candidates by having them rank their skills. This method not only reveals their self-awareness but also contextualizes their abilities against the specific needs of the role, fostering a deeper conversation about their strengths and weaknesses.
"I've got a relatively new one that I love um it is so this works exceptionally well I believe for more senior hires whether they're like group product managers directors or even like kind of senior ic..."
Flighty: The Ultimate Travel App
Bangaly discusses his favorite travel app, Flighty, which enhances the travel experience by providing real-time updates on flight itineraries and gate information. He highlights how it offers insights before they are publicly announced, making it invaluable for travelers needing timely information.
"when I hear a question I've never heard before that is genius next question do you have a favorite product you've recently discovered that you really like I think one that I enjoying quite a lot actua..."
First 90 Days: Building Relationships
In his first 90 days at a new job, Bangaly emphasizes the importance of understanding team dynamics by engaging with team members on a personal level. He believes that knowing their stories fosters trust and investment, making it easier to share his insights and lead effectively.
"downloading it right now now it's got a bazillion reviews five stars uh thank you for the recommendation incredibly useful I'm trying out a new question you've joined a bunch of different companies wh..."
The Power of Human Connection
Bangaly reflects on his experience as a dean at a boarding school in Switzerland, emphasizing the significance of human relationships. He discusses how understanding diverse backgrounds and stories can lead to shared interests and a more inclusive environment, which is crucial in tech and product development.
"because I'm because they believe I'm invested in that I love that two more questions do you have a favorite life motto that you really like and find useful and often share with friends or family in wo..."
Valuing Diverse Voices in Tech
Bangaly concludes by stressing the importance of inclusivity in tech. He shares insights on how diverse perspectives contribute to building world-class products and the necessity of acknowledging different voices to create impactful solutions in a global market.
"to run your teams final question you mentioned that you were a Dean at a school and a boarding school is there something that you take away from that experience that kind of sticks with you I know you..."
Connecting with Bangaly Kaba
In the final moments of the conversation, Bangaly shares how listeners can connect with him online and expresses his appreciation for hearing others' stories. He invites engagement and emphasizes the value of learning from different experiences in the tech industry.
"there Bengali I feel like we've done a lot of understand work uh and I think we've helped a lot of people with a lot of things we talked about so much two final questions where can folks find you onli..."