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Deliveroo Founder: From £0 to £5 Billion: Will Shu | E88
59 segments available
This weeks episode entitled 'Deliveroo Founder - From £0 to £5 Billion: Will Shu' topics: 0:00 Intro 03:25 Your early years 08:56 What made you take on this industry? 25:56 Your riders being discriminated against 31:54 The name of the company at the start 34:25 Your co-founder 38:25 What were some of your hardest challenges? 47:53 Your mental health journey 52:34 One of my hardest moments in Delieveroo 01:01:07 What do you do to relax? 01:03:21 Challenges of having a romantic relationship as a CEO 01:07:49 Delieveroo's IPO journey 01:09:53 I still do deliveries 01:13:02 Your thinking around competition 01:17:36 Money 01:18:58 What are you aiming for? Will: https://twitter.com/willshuroo?lang=fr Listen on: Apple podcast - https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/the-diary-of-a-ceo-by-steven-bartlett/id1291423644 Spotify - https://open.spotify.com/show/7iQXmUT7XGuZSzAMjoNWlX FOLLOW ► Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/steven/ Twitter: https://twitter.com/SteveBartlettSC Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/steven-bartlett-56986834/ Sponsors: https://uk.huel.com/ https://myenergi.com/?utm_source=steven_bartlett&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=podcast
Segments Timeline
The Birth of Deliveroo
Will Shu shares the inspiration behind Deliveroo, emphasizing the need for better food delivery options in London. He reflects on his experiences as a delivery rider, highlighting the importance of treating riders with respect and ensuring their voices are heard.
"i just knew this city needed something better than the classic takeaways that's how i got the idea for delivery i definitely know what it was like to walk in their shoes i did that job for a long time..."
The Journey from Idea to Billion-Dollar Company
In this segment, Shu discusses the rapid growth of Deliveroo from a simple idea to one of Europe's fastest-growing tech companies. He reflects on his unconventional journey as a founder and the challenges he faced, emphasizing that success doesn't always fit the typical entrepreneur stereotype.
"we're about to get all this money in the company and then suddenly it was just gone right big number 600 million something like that and i was like holy [ __ ] you know what do we do [Music] delivery ..."
The Reality of Entrepreneurship
Will Shu candidly talks about the difficulties of running a startup, including the emotional toll and the hard decisions he had to make, such as layoffs. He stresses that entrepreneurship is not as glamorous as it seems and requires immense dedication and resilience.
"conversation today with will is he is not your typical founder he's not your typical ceo he doesn't feel like your typical entrepreneur this was really his first business and the really puzzling thing..."
A Humble Perspective
Shu reflects on his identity as a 'normal guy' despite his extraordinary achievements. He discusses his upbringing in New Haven, Connecticut, and how his immigrant parents influenced his perspective on success and ambition.
"stephen butler and this is the director ceo i hope nobody's listening but if you are then please keep this to yourself well i am sometimes when i have guests on this podcast i don't really know where ..."
Culinary Inspirations and the Move to London
In this segment, Shu shares his love for food and how it inspired him to create Deliveroo. He recounts his move to London for work and the cultural differences he encountered, particularly in the culinary scene, which fueled his desire to improve food delivery.
"slightly different um as i was reading about your story and i've you know as i said you before we started recording i've been i think actually in 2015 i was delivered delivery's biggest customer so i'..."
The Importance of Solving Real Problems
Shu emphasizes the significance of starting a business to solve real problems rather than just for financial gain. He discusses his belief in creating a service that he himself would use, highlighting the importance of passion and commitment in entrepreneurship.
"miles so it's pretty small um it's where uh yale university is oh yeah yeah so we're known for that and we're known for pizza those are probably the two things we're known for best pizza in the u.s th..."
Navigating the Challenges of Entrepreneurship
Will Shu discusses the challenges of entrepreneurship, including the fear of failure and the necessity of being fully invested in a business idea. He shares insights on the mindset required to overcome obstacles and the importance of dedication.
"sort of professional people yeah and you and that brought you over here to london no no so so my story is i i yeah i grew up in new haven um i went to university in in chicago i went to a college call..."
The Role of Timing in Business Success
Shu reflects on the critical role of timing in launching Deliveroo, noting how advancements in technology, such as the smartphone, were essential for the business model. He discusses how macro factors can create opportunities for new ventures.
"on london so i remember really well it came out in april 04. never been europe never been to london never been been here and so i showed up and i had such a great time i met you know the people on the..."
The Evolution of Technology and Business
In this segment, Shu elaborates on how technological advancements have shaped the landscape for startups. He discusses the evolution of mobile technology and its impact on business operations, emphasizing the need for entrepreneurs to adapt to changing environments.
"the good and the bad of the us i'd say yeah i don't want to go into it but when i i i you know we grew up in the uk and i think europe and pretty much the world idolizing so much about the us because ..."
The Impact of Timing on Business
Will Shu discusses the critical role of timing in launching Deliveroo, reflecting on how technological advancements like the iPhone and app ecosystem were prerequisites for his business idea. He emphasizes that without these macro factors, starting a delivery service in 2008 would have been impossible, highlighting the importance of being in the right place at the right time for entrepreneurial success.
"so this was the thing i i i wanted to do after business school okay so you finished business school and you came straight to london to start yeah because what was cool about business school was i saw ..."
The Evolution of Technology and Opportunities
Shu elaborates on how the rapid evolution of technology creates new opportunities for entrepreneurs. He mentions the emergence of blockchain and crypto as examples of how changing landscapes can inspire innovation. This segment underscores the necessity for entrepreneurs to remain vigilant and adaptable to seize new opportunities as they arise.
"you think i think the same about things like spotify all of these macro factors of handheld devices and 5g streaming and 4g streaming whatever all had to come together for you even to have that conver..."
From Friends to Co-Founders
Will recounts his journey with co-founder Greg, detailing their long-standing friendship and shared passion for technology. He explains how their discussions about business ideas led to the inception of Deliveroo, emphasizing the importance of collaboration and shared vision in entrepreneurship.
"we have to so so when you first started out in london so you've moved from business school you've you've got this idea um talk me through how you know as a ground floor opportunity how that became a a..."
Building Deliveroo: The Early Days
In this segment, Shu shares the initial steps taken to build Deliveroo, including the development of the restaurant tablet and rider app. He describes the challenges of launching with limited resources and the importance of hands-on involvement in the early stages of the business.
"here on october 12th um we were building the prototype uh the restaurant tablet um the rider app um we didn't actually launch with a consumer app we literally just had a website and so you had to kind..."
The First Delivery Experience
Shu humorously recounts his first delivery experience, which involved delivering a pizza upside down to a friend. This anecdote illustrates the learning curve of starting a new business and the importance of customer experience, even in the early, imperfect stages of Deliveroo.
"the business was me signing up restaurants me you know getting getting the rider side of the marketplace going um and obviously you know attracting consumers but the funny thing is you know initially ..."
Word of Mouth: The Power of Friends
Will discusses how word of mouth from friends helped Deliveroo gain initial traction. He reflects on the significance of personal connections in building a customer base and how informal marketing strategies can lead to organic growth.
"yeah only up from there though so it's good i mean the writer ate the order yeah yeah not only you delivered it terribly and then ate the food but but still charged her i'm guessing i might have given..."
The Struggles of Early Marketing
Shu shares his unconventional marketing strategies during Deliveroo's early days, including wearing a kangaroo costume to promote the brand. He highlights the challenges of gaining visibility in a competitive market and the creative solutions that emerged from limited resources.
"well i did one thing i had to i used to wear this kangaroo costume around um yeah yeah um i didn't really enjoy doing that but um i i would wear a kangaroo costume and hand out these um you know whate..."
Choosing London: A Strategic Decision
In this segment, Shu explains why he chose to launch Deliveroo in London instead of the U.S. He discusses his familiarity with the city and the need for better food delivery options, emphasizing the strategic considerations behind choosing a launch location.
"nice packaging and i thought there's no possible [ __ ] way and then i tried it and i never went back well the reality is look i tried you know um just eat back in 0.7 right i was really excited about..."
The Lean Startup Approach
Will reflects on the lean startup methodology and how it shaped Deliveroo's early operations. He discusses the importance of being resourceful and making strategic decisions without a large budget, which ultimately led to innovative solutions and growth.
"awesome and so you guys were this was when the business was starting to get a little bit of traction within chelsea i'm guessing exactly yeah yeah so a little bit of traction in one neighborhood yeah ..."
Innovative Marketing Tactics
Shu shares a creative marketing tactic involving 'Do Not Disturb' signs to promote Deliveroo in local neighborhoods. He recounts the humorous encounter with the police, illustrating the lengths to which he went to raise awareness for the brand while navigating the challenges of unconventional marketing.
"until we actually raise money there's something important about that isn't there when teams don't have huge budgets they seem to make better decisions i think so i i think i actually do i think having..."
The Early Team Dynamics
In this final segment, Shu describes the early team dynamics at Deliveroo, including the camaraderie among the small group of riders. He reflects on the collaborative spirit that characterized the early days of the company and how it contributed to building a strong foundation for future growth.
"so um we we were like okay look how do we reach people we could do the flyers i was sick of walking around with this kangaroo costume right and so i was like hmm and i was staying in a hotel and i was..."
The Starbucks Experience: A Founder’s Perspective
Will reflects on his early days as a founder, often hanging out in Starbucks with his riders. He describes the dismissive attitude they faced from staff, which opened his eyes to the discrimination delivery riders often experience, emphasizing the importance of respect and recognition for workers.
"all you have to do is hit the subscribe button and now that the world has opened up you'll be behind the scenes as many of our subscribers have been i can't wait to meet you so i you know you've got f..."
Understanding Discrimination: A Personal Journey
Will shares a poignant moment of realization about the discrimination faced by his riders, particularly those from minority backgrounds. He connects this experience to his own encounters with prejudice, illustrating the importance of empathy and respect in leadership.
"right and it was the way that he looked at us the way he looked at me was almost like we were not people right we're kind of like anonymous is probably the best word i could use and then sort of sub h..."
The Weight of Assumptions: A First-Class Experience
Will recounts a personal experience of being judged based on his appearance while traveling in first class. He reflects on the assumptions made about him and how this experience highlights broader societal issues of prejudice and underestimation, particularly for young black individuals.
"incidents and then those three those three guys were from pakistani descent yeah so one would one could assume that the the reason why the gonna definitely assume that yeah yeah i was assuming just to..."
The Reality of Prejudice in Business
In this segment, Will discusses the harsh realities faced by his riders, many of whom come from challenging backgrounds. He emphasizes the need for understanding and respect in the workplace, drawing parallels between his experiences and those of his team.
"like the first class part of the train i'll never forget the day whether the train attendant walks right down the aisle past everybody else and goes this is first class mate you're like yeah didn't di..."
The Evolution of Deliveroo: Naming Challenges
Will shares the story behind the naming of Deliveroo, revealing initial ideas like 'Booze Food' and 'Food Pony.' He reflects on the evolution of the brand and the importance of making the right decisions in the early stages of a startup.
"you i think few would understand if they hadn't been through it themselves so at some point in this podcast i usually do a break to talk about huel who are the sponsor of this podcast but me and will ..."
The Importance of Founders: Greg's Impact
Will discusses his relationship with co-founder Greg, emphasizing Greg's crucial role in the establishment of Deliveroo. He reflects on the challenges they faced together and the impact of Greg's departure on the business dynamics.
"so jack um who directs the podcast when we put in a huel fridge downstairs he hadn't had it before tries one and now he actually lives off it if i drink this am i gonna want to eat food as well no oka..."
Navigating Co-Founder Relationships
In this segment, Will reflects on the complexities of co-founder relationships, particularly after Greg's departure. He discusses the emotional challenges of losing a close collaborator and the importance of having a shared vision in a startup.
"um i think it was i'm trying to think here it was like uh yeah it was food mule was was another one because you know a mule's uh transports um food not so good right what about booze food did you forg..."
The Ongoing Challenges of Entrepreneurship
Will candidly shares that the challenges of running a business do not diminish over time; they simply evolve. He emphasizes that while Deliveroo has grown significantly, the nature of the challenges faced by entrepreneurs remains constant.
"um but the boost food idea so there's there's another funny part of that because when when delivered so boost food was a separate thing but then when my buddy tried to liver for the first time he was ..."
The Shift to Remote Teams
Will Shu discusses how the COVID-19 pandemic has changed the dynamics of startup teams, emphasizing the importance of having a core team that has experienced the journey together. He reflects on the challenges of having a remote tech team that may not fully understand the product, highlighting the unique nature of Deliveroo as a digital and physical product business.
"i also think that you know people make certain decisions and he he decided to prioritize an another thing which is you know totally totally fine i find that really interesting as well and the reason i..."
Facing the Hard Truths of Startup Life
In this segment, Will Shu opens up about the harsh realities of starting Deliveroo, including the financial struggles and the emotional toll of delivering food himself. He shares a pivotal moment when a friend questioned his choices, prompting him to reflect on his journey and the responsibilities he felt towards his team and customers.
"true very true talking about going through hell with founders and co-founders and just generally the hell of starting startups um one of the real reasons i founded this podcast was because and it's ki..."
The Relentless Drive to Succeed
Will Shu reveals his unwavering commitment to Deliveroo, explaining why he never considered quitting despite the challenges. He discusses the sense of responsibility he felt towards his team and the motivation that came from witnessing the company's early successes, which fueled his ambition to keep pushing forward.
"kind of like because because i you know i worked in these jobs that you can you know make a lot of money before i i had this summer internship at wharton that was like the one everyone wanted and i ju..."
Overcoming Embarrassment in Entrepreneurship
Shu reflects on the embarrassment and humiliation that often accompany the entrepreneurial journey. He shares a personal story about delivering food to a former colleague, highlighting the stigma and judgment that can come from pursuing a startup. This segment emphasizes the importance of resilience and self-belief in the face of public scrutiny.
"i don't know man they just i just feel like i have such responsibility to the people i i work with the restaurants and the writers and i don't know you just start like i'll tell you what i'm not i'm n..."
The Reality of Public Perception
In this candid discussion, Will Shu talks about how he navigated the perceptions of friends and colleagues during the early days of Deliveroo. He emphasizes his indifference to others' opinions, which he considers a superpower that allowed him to focus on building his business without being hindered by external judgments.
"that look i remember that look fondly of the people i was living with when i was 18 19 and you tell them what you're doing and that kind of like smirky like oh okay yeah that happened i also i mean th..."
The Thrill of Early Growth
Shu shares the excitement of gaining traction in the early stages of Deliveroo, including the thrill of raising initial funding. He recounts the challenges of hiring and setting up a makeshift office, illustrating the resourcefulness and determination that characterized the company's formative years.
"i don't know could be a good thing could be a bad thing don't know just don't really care that much it's definitely a good thing it's definitely a good thing especially as it relates to your personal ..."
The Joy of Building a Team
In this segment, Will Shu reflects on the joy of building a small, close-knit team during Deliveroo's early days. He contrasts the camaraderie and shared vision of a startup with the complexities of managing a larger organization, expressing nostalgia for the simplicity and excitement of those initial stages.
"and we got going right but i loved that part that was so much fun um so i'd say in the like the first two were super hard i would say years two and three and four were hard but like exciting because y..."
Mental Health in the Startup Grind
Will Shu discusses the mental health challenges he faced while building Deliveroo, describing the constant pressure and stress that come with being a founder. He shares insights into his emotional state during tough times and the importance of resilience in navigating the ups and downs of entrepreneurship.
"everybody's name and oh everyone's name you guys are all sort of kind of friends you you know you go to the pub together you know that's fun when did you consider yourself to be an entrepreneur ah i d..."
The Abyss of Entrepreneurship
In this raw and honest segment, Shu talks about the darkest moments of his entrepreneurial journey, including the fear and uncertainty that come with significant challenges. He reflects on the hypothetical scenario of knowing the difficulties he would face and how that knowledge might have influenced his decision to start Deliveroo.
"but um i don't have like these enormous ups where i'm like going around jumping up and down and i'm not going bananas when things are you know kind of going back that that being said some of my former..."
The Rollercoaster of Funding
Will Shu recounts a critical moment in Deliveroo's funding journey when a major investment deal fell through unexpectedly. He shares the emotional impact of this setback and the lessons learned about the volatility of startup financing, emphasizing the importance of resilience and adaptability in the face of uncertainty.
"it all it all depends but it it's like hard to it completely different degree because as the founder you think about it every single hour you think about it you know when you're in bed you know when y..."
Navigating Uncertainty
Will discusses the anxiety that comes with being a founder, particularly during unpredictable times like the COVID-19 pandemic. He shares how external factors can drastically affect business operations and the mental strain of dealing with such uncertainties.
"really really tough right again because if we didn't get we didn't get the money because we're lost making entity right we were running out of money right so that part was not fun that was a tough one..."
The Amazon Investment Saga
This segment details the challenges Will faced while trying to secure investment from Amazon. He describes the lengthy and excruciating antitrust review process that delayed crucial funding, highlighting the difficulties of competing against well-funded rivals in a fast-paced industry.
"almost impossible for founders not to live with some form of anxiety because you know when you wake up on any day there's a high probability you're going to get a text message or an email that somethi..."
Crisis Management During COVID-19
Will shares the hardest decision he had to make during the pandemic: laying off a significant number of employees. He reflects on the emotional toll of this decision and the uncertainty surrounding the future of Deliveroo during such a tumultuous time.
"normal says and you know these guys just literally kind of went after you know this um in an unprecedented way but we couldn't get the capital in right so we're just going we're like what do we do and..."
The Emotional Toll of Layoffs
In this poignant segment, Will discusses the emotional impact of laying off employees during a crisis. He reflects on the personal connections with his team and the sleepless nights that followed, emphasizing the human side of leadership in difficult times.
"process hoping to get a lot of money in our business is plummeting that was really bad really bad i mean the worst for people that lost their jobs obviously but really bad sleepless nights i always sl..."
The Burden of Leadership
Will elaborates on the unique challenges faced by founders, particularly the feeling of being out of control during crises. He contrasts this with more manageable business problems, highlighting the weight of responsibility that comes with leading a startup.
"which is the hardest thing we could do now luckily for us these restaurants reestablish themselves and the business has been on this amazing trajectory that was tough what goes into your thought proce..."
Anxiety in Entrepreneurship
In this segment, Will and Steven discuss the anxiety that often accompanies entrepreneurship. They explore how uncertainty and external pressures can lead to mental health challenges for founders, particularly in a rapidly changing business landscape.
"it's not in your control and you don't know how when you i knew the cma i had to deal with them once in 2015. and it's not as you say no timelines we when we didn't have a timeline when we were dealin..."
Finding Calm Amidst Chaos
Will shares his strategies for managing stress and anxiety as a CEO. He discusses the importance of relaxation techniques, such as breathing exercises and long walks, and reflects on how these practices help him cope with the pressures of running a business.
"to happen it's tough but it's tough right because you don't know i don't know right so it takes a long time yeah that point around anxiety i think is um specifically interesting because um it's i thin..."
Balancing Relationships and Business
Will opens up about the challenges of maintaining romantic relationships while being deeply invested in his business. He reflects on the obsessive nature of entrepreneurship and the difficulty of finding balance between personal life and professional commitments.
"time that really helps me out a lot i have some super exciting news to share with you all i have an amazing new sponsor for the podcast which i'm very excited about called my energy like with all of t..."
Balancing Love and Leadership
Will Shu discusses the challenges of maintaining romantic relationships while being deeply invested in his company, Deliveroo. He reflects on the obsessive nature of entrepreneurship and how it can consume one's time and focus, often at the expense of personal connections. Shu shares insights on the importance of compromise and the potential regrets of prioritizing work over relationships.
"that this podcast is going to get bigger the production's going to get better the guests are going to get bigger the stories are going to get more compelling and i couldn't be more excited to share al..."
The Illusion of Success and Happiness
In this segment, Shu explores the misconception that success and wealth automatically lead to happiness. He recounts his journey of working tirelessly to achieve business success, only to realize that true happiness does not scale with financial success. He emphasizes the significance of meaningful relationships and connections for overall well-being.
"i heard that too from all of my ex-girlfriends but i don't know if like um yeah but i don't know if like it's also like you know we do this because you know i don't know like we're hiding from somethi..."
The Cost of Friendship in Business
Will Shu candidly shares his struggles with maintaining friendships while building Deliveroo. He reflects on how the demands of being a founder often lead to loneliness and the challenge of connecting with friends who may not understand the pressures of entrepreneurship. This segment highlights the sacrifices made in pursuit of business success.
"but can you can you just be so intentional about everything i mean i don't know maybe we can i don't know but you must you must understand the importance right according to like the science anyway of ..."
The Hidden Sacrifices of Entrepreneurship
Shu discusses the often-overlooked sacrifices that come with being a successful entrepreneur. He emphasizes the need for a balance between ambition and personal life, warning that the glamor of success can overshadow the reality of hard work and personal costs. This segment serves as a reminder of the challenges faced by founders.
"you're not gonna you don't want to like hang out with your friends and just talk about how tough your day is all all the time either right so i don't know if you were the same way 100 awful friend my ..."
Navigating the IPO Journey
Will Shu shares his experiences during Deliveroo's IPO process, detailing the intense scrutiny and challenges that come with going public. He reflects on the excitement of taking the company public while also facing the pressures of market expectations and media coverage. This segment provides insight into the complexities of scaling a business in the public eye.
"let me take you up until the the ipo so you do um company goes public um our company went public via reverse merger things change it's tough um because you now have the scrutiny of the public markets ..."
Riding with Deliveroo: A CEO's Perspective
In this segment, Shu reveals that he still participates in deliveries to stay connected with the business and its riders. He explains the benefits of this hands-on approach, including testing the rider app and gaining insights into the restaurant experience. This unique perspective highlights his commitment to understanding the challenges faced by his team.
"i don't think about the stock price i actually think about the business but for a few weeks it was like difficult right it's very hard and then there's all these stories we're in which we talked about..."
Learning from the Ground: Customer Experience
Shu recounts a recent delivery experience that highlighted issues with restaurant service. He emphasizes the importance of understanding the rider's perspective and using these experiences to improve operations. This segment underscores the value of direct engagement with the business to enhance customer satisfaction.
"yeah delivery deliveries around nottingham why a few reasons one um i want i always test our rider app right so it's a good way to do it secondly decent way to get some exercise and you're just on the..."
Facing Competition in a Crowded Market
Will Shu discusses the competitive landscape of the food delivery industry, acknowledging the presence of major players with significant capital. He shares his perspective on competition, focusing on Deliveroo's unique value proposition and the importance of understanding consumer needs. This segment provides insights into strategic thinking in a competitive market.
"you know just you know this food's kind of cold and they were like yeah just deliver it buddy and i'm like at no point you told them you're this no i would never you're different from me no no but i w..."
The Future of Food Delivery
In this segment, Shu envisions the future of food delivery, emphasizing the need to move beyond transactional experiences to create emotional connections with consumers. He discusses the challenges of the food industry and the potential for innovation in how food is presented and experienced online. This forward-looking perspective highlights the evolving nature of the food delivery market.
"you know and i get it they're busy too like but you know it's uh just just smile say hey how you doing it makes a big difference in people's days right what have you what's your thinking around compet..."
Transforming Food Delivery: From Transactional to Emotional
Will Shu discusses the need for food delivery services to evolve from a purely transactional experience to one that fosters emotional connections. He emphasizes the importance of integrating restaurant-generated content and customer reviews to create a more engaging platform that resonates with users on a deeper level.
"and no one does it we don't do it well today you look on our app it's pretty transactional you look at ubers you look at you know any of these other guys pretty transactional and i think the winner in..."
The Complex Relationship with Money
In this segment, Will Shu reflects on his relationship with money and its impact on happiness. He shares insights on how his lifestyle hasn't changed significantly despite his financial success and contemplates the true value of wealth in relation to personal fulfillment.
"social network for food but i think having aspects of that yeah right we want to be an app you go to not just when you're hungry but when you want to learn about food as well right i hear you because ..."
Navigating Personal and Professional Journeys
Will Shu explores the intertwining of his personal journey with that of Deliveroo. He discusses the challenges of maintaining a sense of self amidst the demands of running a successful company and the importance of understanding one's own ambitions separate from the business.
"mm-hmm right i'm sure as you said there's probably a limit to that though right yeah but i'm not like i don't buy a lot of stuff so i don't know like yeah i just don't buy a lot of stuff so when you l..."
The Weight of Leadership: Finding Balance
In this reflective conversation, Will Shu and Steven Bartlett delve into the pressures of leadership and the necessity of creating space for personal reflection. Shu shares his experiences of being consumed by the demands of his role and the importance of stepping back to gain perspective on life and business.
"in and yeah and i think i i wonder if other people feel that way i don't know maybe you've asked that question i know how you feel everyone's that sits here that's a founder of a big business feels th..."