"that's a good point no no it's a good point now some people accuse me of speaking very slowly and they're advised on YouTube to turn up the speed twice to three times whenever I'm on one of the reason..."

"rejected any state that had Arabs on it or always had a plan of expulsion is just betrayed by the acceptance of the 47 partition I don't think you understand politics they forced the British to preven..."

"uniquely responsible for what happened in Europe and un only safe haven for Jews Professor Morris because of your logic and I'm not disputing it that's why October 7th happened oh my God because there..."

"operated from they liter belli with all due respect with all due respect you're such a fantastic it's terrifying the following is a debate on the topic of Israel and Palestine with Norman fenin Benny ..."

"are probably much easier ways to get those things if I did care the goal was to explore together the history present and future of Israel and Palestine in a free flowing conversation no time limits no..."

"passion of the exchanges because that emotion in itself spoke volumes we did talk about the history and the future but the anger the frustration the biting wit and at times respect and camaraderie wer..."

"beautiful and it's worth figuring out how we can help it flourish together I love you all this is Alex Freedman podcast to support it please check out our sponsors in the description and now dear frie..."

"there 47 49 that helps us understand what's going on today and uh maybe helps us understand the roots of all this that started even before 1948 I was hoping that Norm can speak first and Benny then M ..."

"practical problem there were two national communities in Palestine and there were irreconcilable differences on fundamental questions most importantly looking at the historic record on the question of..."

"Palestine there was a minority position represented by uh Iran India Yugoslavia they supported one state but uh they believed that if forced to the two communities would figure out some sort of modus ..."

"record there's no Clarity on what the United Nations General said assembly meant by a Jewish State and an Arab State except for the fact that the Jewish state would be demographically the majority wou..."

"Jewish state would have to guarantee full equality of all citizens with regard to political civil and religious matters now that does raise the question if there is absolute full equality of all citiz..."

"resolution was the correct decision I do not believe that the Arab and Jewish communities could at that point be made to live together I disagree with the minority position of India Iran and Yugoslavi..."

"gromo I was very tempted to quote it at length but I recognized that would be uh taking too much time uh so I asked a young friend Jamie Stern Wier to edit it and just get the essence of what foreign ..."

"given the nature of Zionism um given the territorial disposition given the weakness of the Palestinian Community whose leadership had been largely de uh decimated during a major Revolt at the end of t..."

"idea that either the Palestinians or the Arab states could have accepted um such a resolution is is I think um uh an illusion that was in 1947 we saw what happened in 48 and 49 Palestinian Society was..."

"now um what is the most important reason that no Arab state was established um in Palestine well since the 1930s um the Zionist leadership and um the hashm might um uh leadership of uh Jordan as has b..."

"again if you can keep it to just one statement moving forward after Sten if you want to go a little longer uh also we should acknowledge the fact that the speaking speeds of of people here are differe..."

"never hear about uh the fact that a Civil War started in 47 uh that was largely instigated because of the Arab rejectionism of the 47 partition plan uh I never hear about the fact that the majority of..."

"was the reality of the circumstances I feel like most of the other stuff has been said but I I I noticed that um whenever people talk about 48 or the years preceding 48 um I think the worst thing that..."

"to engage Professor Morris if you don't mind I'm not with the first name it's just not my way of relating you can just call me Morris you don't need the professor okay there's a real problem here and ..."

"then you argue with me the point I have no problem with that uh your name please Sten banel okay Mr banel referred to cherry-picking and handful of quotes now it's true that when you wrote your first ..."

"phrase you said that transfer was inevitable and inbuilt into Zionism we're not talking about circumstantial factors a war Arab hostility you said it's inevitable and inbuilt into Zionism now as I sai..."

"established now you were the one again I was very surprised when I read your book here I'm referring to righteous victims I was very surprised when I came to that page 37 where you wrote that territor..."

"expense it was inbuilt and inevitable and so now for you to come along and say that it all happened just because of the war that otherwise the zionists made all these plans for a happy minority to liv..."

"I think you've made your point first I'll take up something that mu said he said that the nakba was inevitable as have you and predictable no no no I I've never said that it was inevitable and predict..."

"didn't possess the land they didn't own it but they were removed from the land and this did happen in Zionism and there's if you like an inevitability in Zionist ideology of buying tracts of land and ..."

"the various political parties of the Zionist organization of the Israeli state of the Jewish agency nobody would have actually made it into policy because it was always a large minority if there were ..."

"be transferred because otherwise if they stayed and were disloyal to the emerging Jewish State this would cause endless disturbances Warfare killing and so on a so Boran and whitesman latched onto thi..."

"defensive War by the Arabs yes by the Arabs yeah and you're also saying that there was never a top down policy of expulsion yes just to clarify the point if I understood you correctly um you're making..."

"and the second I think impediment to to that view is that long before the UN General Assembly convened um to address the question of Palestine Palestinian"

"always means Mass transfer when there were times at least early on in the history of Israel and and a little bit before it where Israel would have accepted a state that would have had a massive Arab p..."

"said it was there the idea it's by the way it's okay to respond back and forth this is great and also just a quick question if I may you're using quotes from from Benny from Professor Morris uh it's a..."

"F we're also asked well this is true why did that happen why did that happen it's because it's a very simple fact which everybody understands ideology doesn't operate in vacuum there are real world pr..."

"and since then have said that the Jews want to build a third temple on the Temple mount um as if that's what really the the mainstream of Zionism has always wanted and always strived for but this is n..."

"politic the IDE went out the window the first generation I have no doubt about their convictions okay they were zionists transfer was inevitable and inbu in Zionism you keep repeating the same because..."

"philosophy the ideology of Zionism have on Israel today the Zionist movement up to 1948 Zionist ideology was Central to the the whole Zionist experience the whole Enterprise up to 1948 and I think Zio..."

"hundreds of thousands of Arabs and the question was how to accommodate the vision of a Jewish state in Palestine alongside the existence of these um um Arab masses living on who were indigenous in fac..."

"of the Contemporary Zionist movement and I think if you read that it's very clear for Herzel the model upon which the Zionist movement would uh would proceed his model was Cil Ro roads has um I think ..."

"to make way for Jewish settlement maybe he wasn't even talking about the Arabs in that particular passage that's the argument of some people maybe he was but the point is it it has only a one 100th of..."

"uh just a quick pause to mention that for people who are not familiar The Herzel we're talking about a century ago and everything we've been talking about has been mostly 1948 and before yes just one ..."

"of that land given was in the nigab it was pretty terrible land at the time and three the land that would have been partitioned to Jews I think would have been um I think I saw it was like 500,000 ER ..."

"the addition and the remaining 22% was occupied in 1967 that's that's not how things work yeah um and I can I can imagine I can imagine an American rejecting giving 10% of the United States to the Pal..."

"Mandate of Israel the word exclusive which you keep using is nonsense the state which benan envisioned would be a Jewish majority State as they accepted the 1947 partition resolution as Steven said th..."

"war the's crisis exactly correct that was one of the major motivators the idea to work with Britain and France on a military operation but then the question again I go back to if that is true if bener..."

"been doing it in Algeria for decades the Americans have been doing it in North America for centuries so how would Israel forcibly displacing um Palestinians somehow besmer um uh Israel in the eyes of ..."

"as whites in the United States quote unquote whites have to be accepting of the fact that the demographic majority is Shifting to non-whites in our own country but that's not what Zionism was about I ..."

"now I personally have shied away from using the word Zionism ever since I finished my doctoral dissertation because painful because as I said I don't believe it's the operative ideology today it's lik..."

"under laws until 1966 for period sure they lived under they didn't immed no no wait a second at the beginning at the beginning it's not fantasy at the beginning they received citizenship could vote in..."

"you don't feel that that the um uh the research that you have conducted and published demonstrates that it was in fact um inherent and inbuilt and inevitable um and I think the point that Norman I are..."

"having written by doctoral dissertation on the topic I was confirmed in that idea because Professor chsky who was my closest friend for about 40 years was very committed to the idea that b nationalism..."

"number two I think that it's entirely possible given how things happen after war that this exact same conflict could have played out and an explosion would have happened without any ideology at play t..."

"minimizing the anti-semitic element you minim in Arab Nation all your books you minimized no no no the husseini was an anti-site the leader of the Palestinian national movement in the 30s and 40s was ..."

"don't seem to see that can I ask to because it's for them to talk to to very quick question what was what do you think the ideal solution was on the Arab side from 47 what would they have preferred an..."

"Jewish massacres um again it's like that I feel like it's a SEL a stive critical analis the term Jewish here because it wasn't the you know the Jews of England or the Soviet say jewi because prior to ..."

"envoys from the mosad and the Jewish agency worked underground in Arab countries and Iran to encourage Jews to go to Israel more importantly for many Jews in Arab states the very possibility of immigr..."

"phrase they were pushed I think it's more complex than than that I think it was sorry I interrupted you no you're not interrupting me because I don't I I only know what's been translated into English ..."

"seem to possibly support an idea that looks close to that but I think when you actually consult the record of what happened when you look at the populations the massive populations that Israel was wil..."

"large numbers so the Arab effort to pressure the British to prevent Jews reaching palestine's safe Shores contributed indirectly to the slaughter of many Jews in Europe because they couldn't get to an..."

"that so there this can't be removed from the fact that the Arabs um as you say paid a price for the Holocaust but they also participated in various ways in helping it happen right I'll make two points..."

"this which is that um Zionism I think would have emerged and disappeared as yet one more utopian political project had it not been for the British um what the preeminent Palestinian historian wi khedi..."

"uncontestable territorial uh hemony and an uncontestable political Supremacy and that is also why after 1948 the nent Israeli States confiscated I believe up to 90% of uh lands that had been previousl..."

"tempting a response from the other side on on the last few sentences okay we'll talk about the claims of of apartheid and so on it's a fascinating discussion we need to have it uh nor on the question ..."

"aside the only two points I would make aside from the Holocaust point is number one I do think the transfer discussion is useful because it indicates that there was a rational reason behind the Arab r..."

"entirely legitimate um but what I but what I would also point point out is that you had a Zionist organization um the Ley 300 people more 300 people one of whom happened to become an Israeli Prime Min..."

"lot more literate than you Mr Bell I'm going believe the guy that wrote you read the Wikipedia say I read Hebrew and you call yourself an Israeli historian all on different grounds okay if I can just ..."

"of Jerusalem collaborated with the Nazis during World War II and actively sought their sponsorship why is it irrelevant and probably wanted the destruction of European jury he probably wanted a lot of..."

"that's what they did and they knew that the Jew were being persecuted in Europe was Palestine the only spot of land on Earth yes basically that was the problem the Jews couldn't immigrate about what a..."

"question was October 7th attacks by Hamas on Israel genocidal was it wasn't an act of ethnic cleansing just so we lay out the moral calculus that we are engaged in I don't maybe was the the problem th..."

"possession of 200 corpses that were burned to a crisp that they assumed were Israeli um PE Israelis who had been killed on October 7th they later determined that these were in fact Palestinian Fighter..."

"7th where did they land for you there's been um almost exclusive focus on the attacks on civilian population centers and and the killings of um civilians on October 7th um what is much much less discu..."

"the um the the demand and obligation of condemnation is exclusively applied in my personal experience over decades is exclusively applied to Palestinians Israel is condemned day and night on every tel..."

"like it had to do with territorial acquisition no no no no I the the point no the point I was making was um what was Hamas trying to achieve militarily on October 7th and I was pointing out that the f..."

"an argument to be made that the people in Gaza that Hamas and Islamic J whoever participated had a just cause for war maybe they didn't do it in the correct way but they maybe had a just cause for War..."

"that's your description of the Lebanon war as I say that's when I first got involved in the conflict I am a voracious reader I read everything on the Lebanon war I would say there's not a single accou..."

"inada your description of defensive Shield when they the Arabs Bing Arab suicide bombers Arab suici bombers destroy fific Jews and masses and buses and in restaurants that's the second in Father do yo..."

"because Hamas is guilty of any War crime that you would potentially accuse and this is according to the Amnesty International people that Norm loves to site Hamas is guilty of all of these same war cr..."

"I'll give you you know who for me is a perfect example wait hold on just resp we don't need examples the false equivalency of the two sides is astounding when Hamas kills civilians in a surprise attac..."

"not in the business of intentionally targeting civilians um I know that's what we're supposed to believe um but but the historical record stands very clearly I it does you've written about when you sa..."

"don't know Israeli Pilots That's thank God you know no you don't know pilot they believe that they are killing Hamas Niks they're giv they and if theas is hiding behind civilians they target every tim..."

"answer the question were out and it was because that was a strike that was a drone strike so it was a proof all the way up chain that we're going to kill children today kill pales you want me to answe..."

"itself in regards to the great March of return they said while the vast majority of protesters acted in a peaceful manner during most protests dozens have approached the fence attempting to damage it ..."

"you thought it was so funny the idea of IDF uh targeting civilians it found go look this up in your machine I already know what you're gonna say you're gonna say found only one or two of them were Jus..."

"enjoying it and also the joy of learning so thank you can we talk about the targeting civilian thing a little bit I think there's like an important underlying not necessarily that I just I think it's ..."

"ask anybody to about Wikipedia can you tell me your know to people who work in the military what's your knowledge of the idea audience can look this up do you think that do you think that do you think..."

"who thinks that all the wisdom all the wisdom he didn't say that a waste of time I I'd like to respond to what you were saying um the the I think the question that that we're trying to answer I think ..."

"lot of people have um looked at the Court's ruling of the 26th of January and focused on the fact that the court did not order a ceasefire I actually wasn't expecting it to order a ceasefire and I was..."

"legitimate questions to be raised I mean in the Bosnia case which I think all four of us would agree was clearly a case of genocide the court determined mean by the serbs yes and in the bosia case the..."

"threshold and not reaching 500 ,000 is probably relevant and the second element is there has to be an intent in other words and you believe there's an intent yes I think if if there is any other plaus..."

"international court of justice issues a ruling individual justices um have have the right can give their own opinion and I found the German one to be the most interesting on on this specific question ..."

"been awful incompetent if she was unable to see the misrepresentations that Mr benell based on his Wikipedia entry was able to find so this is based on the official icj report that was released I'm no..."

"me let read one sure so this was uh taken from the uh from the South African complaint there's tons of these but so here's one uh in the in the complaint for the icj they said that on the 12th of Octo..."

"you're allowed to do proportionality assessments afterwards so if this is supposed to be one of many quotes that they've shown that is supposed to demonstrate uh genocidal intent but it is very easily..."

"guess uh I can't predict I got it all wrong actually as Molen will attest I got it all wrong the first time I never thought the American judge would vote again would vote in favor of plausibility so y..."

"say they make a very strong case but let's agree plausible now here's a question if somebody qualifies for an Olympic team let's say a regional person qualifies for Olympic team it doesn't mean they'r..."

"won't deal with the actual facts of the matter ever okay the American judge read several of the quotes look at the American supreme court today they may support Trump shows you how Jud Professor Mars ..."

"accept but you don't accept extreme Palestinian statements after they lost their entire country not just 12200 people that's a good point no no it's a good point and on that uh on on that moment brief..."

"invited us to a tiring session yeah there you go how you guys doing okay okay there there are major things to discuss here not just what what some court is doing and going to judge in two years time y..."

"reason why the solution is hard is because the histories in the myths are completely there's a different factual record one of the things it' be good to talk about Solutions with the future is going b..."

"cuz I know you've also uh talked about the closure of the archives and stuff well it's it's marginal they do it deals with that as well but they have tried to seal off documents which has already used..."

"first of all thank you for that heated discussion about the present I would love to go back into history in a way that informs what we can look for in a uh as a by way of Hope for the future so when h..."

"peoples well my my from my knowledge of the 120 years or so of conflict the closest I think the two sides have been to reach in some sort of settlement appears to have been in the year 2000 when Barac..."

"nobody really knows why Arafat said no that is some people think he was trying to hold out for slightly better term um but my my reading is that he was constitutionally psychologically incapable of si..."

"to that I I think he just couldn't do it that's my reading but some people say it was because the terms were insufficient and he was willing but was waiting for slightly better terms I don't I don't I..."

"in mind um that as of 1949 uh Israel controlled 78% of the British Mandate of Palestine um the Palestinians were seeking a state on the remaining 22% and this was apparently too much for Israel my my ..."

"peace in the mid1 1970s in the wake of the 1973 October War um uh I'll I'll recall that in 1971 mosid Dean Israel's uh defense minister at the time uh full of triumphalism about Israel's uh victory in..."

"resolution that incorporated both an Israeli withdrawal to the 1967 lines and the establishment of a Palestinian State um in in the occupied territories I think it there was a very reasonable Prospect..."

"practicality as a matter of principle I do think um the establishment of a Palestinian State uh in in the occupied territories remains realistic I think the question that we now need to ask ourselves ..."

"possible I look at um I grew up um in Western Europe in the long shadow of the second world war um I think we can all agree that there could have been no peace in Europe um had certain regimes on that..."

"is a race race-based distinction between different segments of the population and some of them don't have any representation at all like the blacks in South Africa no rights at all in Israel in Israel..."

"I'd like to just go through that uh I don't quite I agree and I disagree with Moen on the 73 issue after the 1973 War uh it was clear that Israel was surprised by what happened during the war and um u..."

"Power Carter was an extremely smart guy Jimmy Carter extremely smart guy and he was very fixed on details extreme he was probably the most impressive of modern American presidents in my opinion by a w..."

"called the Palestinian peace offensive that was their worry that the Palestinians were becoming too moderate and unless you understand that you can't understand the June 1982 Lebanon war the purpose o..."

"the Palestine papers which were about 15,000 pages of all the records of the negotiations I have read through all of them every single page and this is what I find if you look at shomo Ben Ami's book ..."

"parts of Jerusalem now how do we judge who is reasonable and who is not benami says I think the Israeli offer was reasonable that's how he sees it but what is the standard of reasonable my standard is..."

"Palestinian territory the exception of the Goan Heights the designated unit according to the international court of justice the designated unit for Palestinian self-determination and they they deny an..."

"unreasonable I think that the issue is when you apply international law or International standards I I wouldn't say what Benmore says that they're irrelevant but I think that these have to be seen as ..."

"it was both of them I think it was N9 to5 yeah but but fact of the matter is that the PLO came to accept um a two-state settlement why they did it I think is irrelevant um and subsequently the PLO act..."

"he was talking about between 100 and 250,000 over 10 years now the best offer that came from the Palestinians excuse me the best offer that came from Israel was the allart offer can we just pretend li..."

"to helping the Palestinians in any sense of the word the condition has only gotten worse the settlements only continue to expand the military operations are only going to get more brutal uh the the bl..."

"historically it hasn't um and in the modern day violence has just hurt the Palestinians more and more if you paint a picture of the future now is a good moment for both Palestine and Israel to get new..."

"know anything about how the UN system if you read the language of the resolution binding is typically if it commits you to upholding a particular international law or if it establish you just throw ou..."

"exists but the point is um whether you know the the the core of this conflict is not between Israel and Egypt the core of this conflict is between Israel and the Palestinian people and the reason that..."

"looked at it in more strategic terms how do you remove the most powerful two point two point simple points what was the terms of that Egypt Israel peace treaty international law Egypt demanded every n..."

"what do you mean back the airfields weren't there when the EG were there okay that's incorrect what's you're incorrect they built an Airfield the Israelis built an Airfield in the occupied and they wa..."

"whole picture but as foreign minister MOA Dean said at the time he said if a car has four wheels and you remove one wheel the car can't move and for them removing Egypt from the Arab front would then ..."

"thing you ever cited from a book of mine you I cited from your book yes I was absolutely shocked at your betrayal of your people that was your treason it was I apologize for that I apologize I apologi..."

"because that I agree with I agree with that Israel believes it has to restore what it calls its uh deterrence capability I think you've written about it actually I just realized Israel has to restore ..."

"and I'm not going to lie about that now I will admit my predictive capacities are perfect are limited but for the moment it's a very Bleak situation that I agree with and I don't see right now a way o..."

"illegal under International La you think you think a blockade you don't understand the way the world works these things are irrelevant and you think confining because that's the blockade yes you don't..."

"combatants be and so now you're doing what Meen said you're becoming very selective about the law if you want to forget about the law Hamas had every right to do what it did it had every right to do w..."

"helps expense of anybody for anybody who comes to the aid of those suffering a genocide half of half of whom are children yeah according to the most current un reports as of today one quarter of the p..."

"Rights Watch called it using starvation as a weapon that's called engineering okay that's what they did but you were pushed on this by Coleman Hughes to bring up like an example of why is the Gaza Str..."

"human rights that you don't know you don't know you don't care I don't know you know how complicated have you ever investigated how complicated is the metric for Hunger starvation and famine it is suc..."

"regional conflict and geopolitical complications and all of that uh but what gives me hope is is that throughout their entire ordeal um the paltin people have never surrendered um and I believe they n..."

"going to be a reality I I um as I what do you mean by that you mean all of Palestine is that what you mean no and and from The River To The Sea well ideally of course yes um and and what I was those t..."

"militarily let me finish my point more journalists have been more children he doesn't want to hear it's soor you're not having a material it is virt yes like when you see children over and over again ..."

"response and then m m mentions that more journalists were killed in Gaza than in all of World War II it doesn't get that doesn't any part of Medics were killed that's that's silly journalist says it's..."

"precise because I you could say 80 90 95 if I knew that I would say it I think it's a reasonable it's a reasonable you're not the best person to be asking that question you know I read when you wrote ..."

"think there's a very easy way to find out is to have a independent forgetting of course you forget forget that doesn't mean anything the law Independent high commission human necessar just repeat all ..."

"well I would just say very briefly unlike my colleague I think writing the truth about what happened in history in various periods of History if I've done a little bit of that I'm happy thank you nor ..."