
36 segments available
Should AI belong in the courtroom? Joshua Browder ventured to run an experiment where a robot lawyer would defend a court case. Looking to up the ante, he even offered $1m for a Supreme Court hearing! His experiment was met with a threat of 6 months jail time. Listen in for the full story. Topics Covered: 00:00 - Introduction 01:46 - DoNotPay’s origin 03:03 - Surprising laws 05:47 - General counsel for consumers 07:04 - The role of AI and technology 09:27 - Ensuring quality counsel 13:16 - Prioritizing features 14:49 - Corporate pushback 17:19 - Reshaping the legal system 20:40 - Entering the physical courtroom 25:16 - Cross border possibilities 26:36 - Looping humans into modeling 29:26 - Deflationary impacts 30:31 - Recent pushback 33:46 - Is AI already writing law? 35:47 - Why is law so complex? 38:12 - Entering the Supreme Court 39:17 - Lawyer support 40:26 - Looking forward 43:56 - Building horizontal vs vertical 46:14 - Does this law exist? Resources: * DoNotPay: https://donotpay.com/ * Find Josh on Twitter: https://twitter.com/jbrowder1 Stay Updated: * Find a16z on Twitter: https://twitter.com/a16z * Find a16z on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/a16z * Subscribe on your favorite podcast app: https://a16z.simplecast.com/ * Follow our host: https://twitter.com/stephsmithio Please note that the content here is for informational purposes only; should NOT be taken as legal, business, tax, or investment advice or be used to evaluate any investment or security; and is not directed at any investors or potential investors in any a16z fund. For more details please see a16z.com/disclosures.
Joshua Browder introduces the concept of robot lawyers operating in the background to assist consumers with legal issues. He discusses the potential of AI in the legal field, emphasizing how technology can help individuals fight for their rights without the need for extensive resources. This segment sets the stage for the exploration of DoNotPay's mission to empower consumers through technology.
"I imagine a world where you didn't even know that something happened robot lawyers were fighting for you in the background and almost immediately they get you the refund or something back today we're ..."
Joshua Browder shares the origin story of DoNotPay, revealing how his personal experiences with parking tickets inspired him to create a solution for consumers. He explains how he developed an automated system to help others contest tickets, leading to the growth of the platform into a global service that addresses various legal issues beyond just parking tickets.
"as a reminder the content here is for informational purposes only should not be taken as legal business tax or investment advice or be used to evaluate any investment or security and is not directed a..."
In this segment, Browder discusses some of the surprising legal services offered by DoNotPay, including how to enter competitions for free by exploiting obscure laws. He highlights the importance of technology in helping consumers navigate these loopholes, showcasing the platform's ability to automate processes that would otherwise be time-consuming.
"globally viral because people hate parking tickets and that's what made me realize that the idea of helping people with technology and consumer rights is bigger than just tickets and so I spent the pa..."
Browder elaborates on DoNotPay's mission to serve as a general counsel for consumers, emphasizing the platform's role in helping individuals who lack the resources to effectively represent themselves. He discusses the wide range of legal issues the platform addresses, showcasing its commitment to consumer rights and the use of technology to simplify legal processes.
"know about these loopholes within Raffles for example but they're just manually entering into these things without the knowledge or without the support of Technology let's go through one or two more j..."
This segment focuses on how DoNotPay assists users in obtaining refunds from companies. Browder explains the platform's approach to generating aggressive letters that compel companies to grant refunds, highlighting the effectiveness of automated solutions in consumer rights advocacy.
"government services yeah yeah I like that positioning and another positioning that I've heard you say is basically the general counsel for consumers and I love this idea where the average everyday per..."
Browder discusses the evolution of DoNotPay's technology from simple document automation to the integration of AI. He explains how the platform is moving towards more advanced AI capabilities to handle complex legal disputes, particularly in the realm of medical bills, and the potential impact this could have on consumer rights.
"hours of someone sitting on the phone how are you actually facilitating that with technology so our motto is the squeaky wheel gets the grace so if you are on a flight and the in-flight Wi-Fi doesn't ..."
In this segment, Browder addresses concerns about the quality of AI-generated legal services. He explains how DoNotPay ensures high-quality interactions by using AI to facilitate real-time communication and responses, particularly in sensitive areas like medical billing, while maintaining a focus on accuracy and consumer advocacy.
"hundred dollar dispute with Comcast we can now work on ten thousand dollar medical bills because Comcast or United might let that hundred dollars go but no hospital is just going to let ten thousand d..."
Browder introduces the No Surprises Act and how DoNotPay is leveraging this law to assist consumers with medical bills. He explains the process of comparing treatment costs across hospitals and crafting letters to negotiate discounts, showcasing the platform's innovative approach to tackling healthcare expenses.
"concealer rights and so most lawyers most lawyers focus on serious issues and because of that these corporations governments know that people can't fight back and these issues aren't rocket science if..."
Browder reflects on the limitations of AI in handling emotionally charged legal situations, such as asylum cases. He emphasizes the necessity of human presence in court for cases that involve deep emotional stakes, contrasting this with more straightforward consumer rights issues where AI can effectively assist. This segment underscores the balance between technology and human empathy in the legal field.
"science you can have a lot of impact with just a latter and a lot of lawyers say well if you're being accused of a serious crime maybe AI is not a good idea and I think that's true but certainly for f..."
Joshua Browder shares insights on the pushback from corporations against DoNotPay's initiatives. He describes how companies have implemented anti-bot measures to counteract the automated tools that empower consumers. This segment highlights the ongoing battle between consumer rights and corporate interests, illustrating the challenges faced by innovative legal tech solutions.
"touch in those sorts of cases that's fascinating when you're talking about the Asylum case for example you're saying people need to go into the courtroom and vouch for themselves is that what you're r..."
In this segment, Browder discusses how the COVID-19 pandemic has accelerated changes in the legal industry, allowing for more digital interactions and automation. He reflects on how relaxed regulations have opened doors for innovations like DoNotPay, while also noting the challenges of returning to traditional court settings. This conversation reveals the transformative impact of technology on legal processes.
"get refunds on the positive side at least now the AI is doing the work on both sides and saving the humans from the bureaucracy and are you finding that you are able to keep your AI up with the AIS th..."
Browder elaborates on the resistance faced from the legal establishment regarding the integration of technology in courtrooms. He shares anecdotes about judges' biases against digital appearances and the reluctance of the judiciary to embrace technological advancements. This segment highlights the tension between innovation and traditional legal practices.
"rethink the way that they're engaging with customers yeah I think this is one of the biggest risks to do not pay what if all the problems in America get solved fortunately um America I mean it sounds ..."
Joshua Browder reveals his ambitious experiment to introduce a robot lawyer into physical courtrooms. He describes the concept of using AI to guide users through their cases via discreet technology. However, this initiative faced significant backlash from the legal community, illustrating the challenges of disrupting established legal norms. This segment captures the essence of innovation clashing with tradition.
"view on technology to a degree I'm not surprised but in a way I am surprised because the amazing thing about technology is it often automates or gets rid of the boring mundane aspects of a job and the..."
In this segment, Browder elaborates on the legal industry's protectionist nature, detailing how the rules established in the 1800s and 1900s do not account for AI's role in law. He argues that AI should not be classified as a person and thus should not be bound by traditional legal restrictions.
"writing letters to State Bar associations one lawyer called up every major State virus Association in all the major cities and California and another State Bar Association actually threatened us and t..."
Browder reflects on the emotional response from lawyers towards the introduction of AI in the courtroom. He compares the resistance to an 'Ice Age' scenario, where lawyers fear losing their jobs to technology that can automate many of their tasks, leading to a cultural clash within the legal profession.
"do not pay was that it didn't apply to that situation because in these laws it says a person can't practice law without passing the bar and AI is not a person it's a technology and the person is just ..."
Discussing the future of AI in the legal field, Browder points to a Colombian judge using ChatGPT in their rulings. He argues that while lawyers are adopting AI, they often do not pass the savings onto clients, highlighting the need for a shift in how legal services are delivered.
"documents not all lawyers are like that but some of them are and if AI can just do that and replace them it puts a lot of them out of work and so it's a combination of loving rules being worried about..."
Browder addresses concerns about AI making mistakes in legal contexts, arguing that humans also err. He emphasizes that AI can provide objective assistance without the biases and issues that sometimes plague human lawyers, such as substance abuse.
"is that customers deserve the savings they deserve to access their rights very cheaply and you can just cut out the middleman with these lawyers taking huge sums just to write a letter I think a fair ..."
In this segment, Browder explains how AI can assist with legal issues across borders, using a case involving a consumer in Boston and a timeshare in Mexico as an example. He illustrates how AI can access and analyze vast amounts of legal information to provide solutions that human lawyers may not be able to.
"alcohol problems and AI isn't perfect but at least it's objective and it can't get drunk the night before the case that's that's a good perspective I think another amazing thing that I've seen the tec..."
Browder discusses the importance of training AI with specialized legal knowledge to improve its accuracy. He mentions the collaboration with top lawyers to refine AI outputs, addressing the challenges of ensuring AI does not provide misleading information in legal contexts.
"and it comes out with a way out and the same is true actually for Comcast these generic AI models like um Da Vinci from openai they're not actually that good at the law what we've had to do at do not ..."
Browder predicts that the legal industry will eventually modernize to accommodate AI assistance, especially given the high percentage of people unable to afford legal help. He envisions a future where AI plays a crucial role in consumer rights and legal representation.
"that it's dishonest so with Comcast for example it says things like I've had three Internet outages in the past 24 hours and that might be a good way of getting a refund from Comcast but it's not true..."
Browder discusses the potential deflationary effects of AI on legal services, suggesting that as AI reduces operational costs, it could lead to lower prices for consumers. He connects this trend to broader implications for various industries, including customer service.
"it's going to happen inevitably but what does that mean really does that mean that for example an AI needs to pass its own version of the bar and then it can represent people do you think that it'll j..."
Browder responds to recent criticisms of DoNotPay's services, clarifying misconceptions about the quality of AI-generated legal assistance. He emphasizes the company's transition from templates to AI and reassures that genuine AI solutions are on the horizon.
"to be a deflationary aspect of this you mentioned that different lawyers are already using Technologies like chat GPT to kind of get their work to the 80 level and then mastering it further do you thi..."
Browder elaborates on the importance of focusing on consumer rights issues that have minimal downside risks. He discusses the potential for AI to assist in resolving common legal disputes, such as security deposit refunds, and emphasizes the need for responsible testing of AI technologies in more serious legal matters. This segment highlights the balance between innovation and caution in the legal tech space.
"you don't need AI to write a angry letter to your former landlord to request a security deposit refund it's just a question of the amount and uh sticking that into an angry letter so that the small cl..."
Joshua Browder speculates on the future of AI in the legal landscape, suggesting that AI could soon be involved in drafting laws and automating court systems. He expresses optimism about the role of AI in enhancing access to justice and improving efficiency in legal processes. This segment captures the excitement surrounding the integration of AI in law and its potential to reshape the industry.
"is your goal here with do not pay currently while the technology is in the place that it is to just focus on these consumer rights issues where getting it wrong is actually doesn't really have much do..."
In this segment, Browder envisions a future where AI can facilitate instant class actions, allowing consumers to receive timely compensation for grievances. He critiques the current slow processes of class action lawsuits and proposes that AI could revolutionize how consumers fight back against corporate wrongdoing. This forward-looking discussion emphasizes the transformative power of technology in legal advocacy.
"automate with do not pay the second thing is that we really want to test these AI products much more so when they deal with serious issues and also when it's not deterministic technology so going back..."
Browder introduces a new DoNotPay product that utilizes AI to help consumers understand complex terms and conditions. He explains how this tool can identify non-standard clauses and potential pitfalls in legal documents, making it easier for consumers to navigate their rights. This segment highlights the practical applications of AI in empowering consumers and enhancing their understanding of legal agreements.
"exciting time I feel like do not pay has done an excellent job of kind of keeping up with the times and so something I saw you build recently is the chat GPT extension which you can basically understa..."
Joshua Browder addresses the complexity of legal language and the challenges it poses for consumers. He discusses the influence of lobbying by large corporations on legal frameworks and expresses concern about potential anti-AI legislation. This segment provides insight into the systemic issues within the legal system that contribute to its complexity and the barriers consumers face in understanding their rights.
"consumers their rights back when new technology comes out we think how can it help people and times and conditions is a great example because people can't understand the changes being made what they'r..."
Browder reflects on the potential for AI to enhance consumer rights and the importance of maintaining those rights in the face of new legislation. He shares examples of how DoNotPay automates processes like credit report disputes, emphasizing that technology can help consumers reclaim their rights. This segment underscores the ongoing battle for consumer protection in an evolving legal landscape.
"that no regular consumer can actually read through and understand like should it not just be a rule system that you could even effectuate through code for example I think there's a lot of lobbying tha..."
In this segment, Browder discusses his ambitious experiment to have a robot lawyer participate in a Supreme Court case. He explains the rationale behind this initiative, aiming to demonstrate the capabilities of AI in legal contexts. This discussion highlights the intersection of technology and law, as well as the challenges faced in gaining acceptance from the legal community.
"you see on the horizon based on your experiences with companies with lawyers who are pushing back against some of this new technology the fairer when any technology comes out is huge and it doesn't he..."
Browder shares insights into the support he has received from certain lawyers regarding the integration of AI in legal practices. He emphasizes the potential for technology to assist those who cannot afford legal representation and discusses conversations with supportive legal professionals. This segment illustrates the growing acceptance of AI as a tool for enhancing access to justice.
"with one law but it is worrying about where where kind of Congress is heading yeah I love that you said or you mentioned that you like stirring the pot I want to ask you specifically about within the ..."
Joshua Browder concludes with a vision for the future of law, where technology plays a central role in improving legal processes. He discusses the potential for AI to automate various aspects of legal work, making it more efficient and accessible for consumers. This segment encapsulates the optimism surrounding the future of legal technology and its implications for society.
"well I'm curious to hear what you're hearing from the lawyers who are supportive because we've kind of talked about the pushback from the legal world that is not in support of some of these ideas and ..."
Browder envisions a future where robot lawyers can handle class actions instantly, providing consumers with immediate refunds and justice. He critiques the current slow processes of class actions and expresses excitement about how technology can empower consumers to fight back against wrongdoing.
"like to add about where the future of law might go and how technology may be involved in that future yeah I think there will be instant class actions so right now the way class actions work is imagine..."
Joshua explains how DoNotPay helps consumers profit from spam calls through a unique legal loophole. He describes a product that allows users to sue spam callers for significant amounts, showcasing how technology can automate legal processes and benefit consumers financially.
"I'm excited about that you know one example that I loved from your social media was people who can get money from spam calls I feel like that's just such a great Exemplar of all of us get these goddam..."
Browder shares insights on the horizontal strategy of DoNotPay, which allows the company to address a wide range of consumer rights issues. He reflects on the importance of building a comprehensive platform over time to effectively serve consumers and adapt to their needs.
"for their house with the money they made from suing these callers so just things like that can be easily automated with technology and it's not just AI with fintech if you have these credit cards that..."
In a light-hearted segment, Joshua and the host discuss various strange laws across the U.S. Browder emphasizes the existence of outdated laws and the lack of processes to repeal them, highlighting the quirky nature of American legal systems and their implications for consumers.
"actually kind of build it out that has allowed us to be unique and there are companies like even offered by lawyers that allow you to get out of your tickets but there's no one trying to tackle all of..."
Browder concludes with a call to action for listeners to explore DoNotPay's wide range of consumer support services. He hints at exciting upcoming announcements regarding the use of AI in courtrooms, leaving the audience eager for future developments.
"know you're not covering some of those laws but I think I would really encourage people to go to do not pay and look at the super wide range of things that you are supporting consumers with because it..."