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The art of product management | Shreyas Doshi (Stripe, Twitter, Google, Yahoo)
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Shreyas Doshi is a treasure trove of wisdom and tactical insights on product, strategy, psychology, leadership, and life. Over the course of his career, he’s PM’d at Google, Twitter, Yahoo, and Stripe—where he joined as its fourth product manager, later becoming Stripe’s first PM manager and helping define and grow its product management function from ~5 to more than 50 people. Since leaving Stripe, Shreyas has amassed a huge Twitter following in large part thanks to consistent sharing of high-quality insights on the art of product management. Where to find Shreyas Doshi: • Twitter: https://twitter.com/shreyas • LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/shreyasdoshi/ Where to find Lenny: • Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com • Twitter: https://twitter.com/lennysan • LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/ Referenced: • Coda template: https://coda.io/@shreyas/pre-mortems-how-a-stripe-product-manager-predicts-prevents-probl • Pre-mortems: https://twitter.com/shreyas/status/1221257568510603264 • LNO framework: https://twitter.com/shreyas/status/1492345184171945984 • Three levels of product work: https://twitter.com/shreyas/status/1370248637842812936 • Execution problems: https://twitter.com/shreyas/status/1427116991274307588 • Opportunity-cost thinking: https://twitter.com/shreyas/status/1409726218438549514 • High agency: https://twitter.com/shreyas/status/1276956836856393728 Episode transcripts: https://www.lennyspodcast.com/shreyas-doshi-on-pre-mortems-the-lno-framework-the-three-levels-of-product-work-why-most-execution-problems-are-strategy-problems-and-roi-vs-opportunity-cost-thinking/#transcription In this episode, we cover: [00:00] Shreyas’ upbringing and path into product management [14:22] Lessons from working at Stripe, Twitter, Google, and Yahoo [27:12] How pre-mortem meetings impacted the culture at Stripe [33:23] What are the best practices in running a pre-mortem meeting? [39:27] The LNO framework: What is it and how did it change the way Shreyas went about his day? [48:06] The two-step tactic you can apply to overcome procrastination on important tasks [53:19] The three levels of product work and which level should you optimize for [56:46] How might these product work levels cause conflict or influence your company culture? [1:03:43] Common types of problems hiding behind the execution label [1:05:14] Two traits you need to identify a fake execution problem [1:13:10] The pitfall of ROI thinking [1:21:03] What is opportunity-cost thinking and how can you apply it? Thank you to our wonderful sponsors for making this episode possible: • Coda: https://coda.io/lenny • Productboard: https://www.productboard.com/ • Sprig: https://sprig.com/lenny Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquires about sponsoring the podcast, email podcast@lennyrachitsky.com.
Segments Timeline
The Power of Internal Optics
Shreyas Doshi emphasizes the importance of internal optics in organizations, explaining how it generates energy, awareness, excitement, and feedback opportunities. He argues that these elements are crucial for enhancing impact and execution in product management.
"you should be spending some time on internal optics because it creates energy it creates awareness it creates excitement it creates opportunities for feedback those are all really great things and the..."
Shreyas Doshi: A Product Management Luminary
The host introduces Shreyas Doshi, highlighting his rise as a prominent voice in product management. With experience at major tech companies like Google, Twitter, Yahoo, and Stripe, Shreyas shares unique insights framed in memorable ways, often challenging conventional wisdom.
"better execution for you there's no one out there today who shares more wisdom more consistently on the art of product management than triass doshi treyas kind of came out of nowhere a few years ago a..."
Five Key Topics of Discussion
In this episode, Shreyas and the host outline five core topics they will explore, including the power of pre-mortems, effective time management for product managers, the three levels of product work, and the distinction between execution and strategy problems.
"insights are often framed in really memorable and interesting ways and they're often contrarian and not ideas that you've heard elsewhere trias has worked at some of today's most important tech compan..."
The Impact of Pre-Mortems
Shreyas discusses the significance of pre-mortem meetings in fostering a proactive culture at Stripe. He explains how these meetings help teams anticipate potential failures and create strategies to mitigate risks before they occur.
"go deep on them we talk about the power of pre-mortems we talk about how to best use your time as a product manager we look into the three levels of product work and how getting them wrong often leads..."
Coda: A Tool for Productivity
The host introduces Coda, an all-in-one document tool that combines documents, spreadsheets, and apps. Shreyas shares how he uses Coda daily for organizing his newsletter and managing workflows, highlighting its role in enhancing productivity.
"hear it this episode is brought to you by coda code is an all-in-one doc that combines the best with documents spreadsheets and apps in one place i actually use coda every single day it's my home base..."
Transitioning from Engineering to Product Management
Shreyas shares his journey from being an engineer to a product manager. He reflects on his early experiences in tech, the realization that he preferred product work, and how he transitioned into a product management role, emphasizing the importance of mentorship.
"curate my private knowledge repository for paid newsletter subscribers and it's also how i manage the workflow for this very podcast over the years i've seen code evolve from being a tool that makes t..."
Lessons from Loudcloud
Shreyas recounts his experience at Loudcloud, where he was exposed to high-caliber teams and learned the value of collaboration and energy in a work environment. He reflects on how this experience shaped his understanding of effective teamwork.
"and start using coda you can take advantage of a special limited time offer just for startups head over to coda dot io slash lenny to sign up and get a thousand dollar credit on your first statement t..."
Insights from Major Tech Companies
Shreyas shares rapid-fire insights from his time at Yahoo, Google, Twitter, and Stripe. He discusses the importance of building multiple services under a single account, a lesson learned at Yahoo, and how it influenced his approach to product management.
"credit on your account this episode is brought to you by product board product leaders trust product board to help their teams build products that matter from startups to industry titans over 6 000 co..."
The Importance of Bundling Services
Reflecting on his time at Yahoo, Shreyas emphasizes the significance of bundling services under a single account. He explains how this strategy was pivotal in creating a seamless user experience and how it was later adopted by Google.
"features to build next stakeholders feel the love too with an easy to view roadmap that automatically updates so everyone knows what you're building and why make data driven product decisions that res..."
The Power of High-Caliber Teams
Shreyas Doshi reflects on his early experiences at Opsware, highlighting the impact of working with a highly talented and energetic team. He emphasizes the importance of collaboration and energy in a successful work environment, setting the stage for his future roles at major companies like Stripe, Twitter, Google, and Yahoo.
"idea i'm in my early 20s i have no idea how to manage vendor relationships but i ended up doing that and as part of that i got an opportunity to work with many folks over at opsware including folks on..."
Lessons from Yahoo: The Power of Bundling
Shreyas shares a key takeaway from his time at Yahoo: the significance of building multiple services under a single account. He discusses how Yahoo's implementation of a unified identity system laid the groundwork for future successes in bundling services, a concept later perfected by Google.
"yeah let's do this rapid fire style because you know me i could like spend an hour just talking about this topic but just starting with yahoo i think i learned the importance of building multiple serv..."
Google's Big Thinking Culture
Reflecting on his six years at Google, Shreyas discusses the culture of thinking big that permeated the organization. He notes how this mindset influenced his approach to product management and decision-making, encouraging teams to pursue substantial opportunities rather than settling for smaller gains.
"experience very firsthand because i was working on the identity team at yahoo real real quick on yeah because it makes me think about it i remember they tried to do that with flickr and they had a bun..."
Pursuing Big Opportunities at Google
Shreyas elaborates on the unwritten rule at Google that only projects generating over $100 million in revenue were worth pursuing. He explains how this high bar for opportunity shaped his thinking and decision-making, emphasizing the importance of identifying and creating significant business opportunities.
"right answer over the long term great advice okay sorry cut you off google yes google i think the main thing i learned was the power of thinking really big and i know it sounds very sounds like a plat..."
Twitter's Unique Product Differentiation
Shreyas discusses his observations at Twitter, focusing on the combination of network effects and core product differentiation that has allowed Twitter to maintain its relevance. He reflects on the challenges the platform faced and the unique qualities that set it apart from competitors.
"had to sometimes just let go of these seemingly smaller opportunities so that tendency to kind of think about well yes there is a 10 million dollar business here but like can we make it a 100 million ..."
The Magic of Small Teams at Stripe
Shreyas shares insights from his time at Stripe, highlighting the effectiveness of small teams characterized by high energy, sound judgment, and low ego. He emphasizes how this combination fosters a productive environment and contributes to the overall success of the organization.
"observe very closely when i worked at twitter and then at stripe i think the main thing i took away was um that when you combine high energy sound judgment low ego and small teams you just get magic a..."
Lessons from Founders: Strategic Insight and Listening
Shreyas reflects on his interactions with founders at various companies, particularly Larry Page at Google and Jack Dorsey at Twitter. He discusses the importance of strategic insight and the ability to listen and ask the right questions, which have influenced his leadership style.
"saw that is there an example that or a story of that that happening that you think yeah i think you know i forget the details and they're not that important anyway but like there was a time when we we..."
Marketing Wisdom from Stripe's Leadership
Shreyas shares valuable lessons learned from Stripe's leaders, particularly about effective marketing strategies. He emphasizes the importance of communicating product value in a way that resonates with customers, separating the effort of building a product from how it is marketed.
"that's a question that a lot of pms would hear and be like oh my god i can't come on man we're trying to try to move some metrics here but i love that you took that as like okay i really find this rea..."
Setting a Culture Through Example
In this segment, Shreyas discusses the importance of setting a company culture by embodying the values you wish to see in the organization. He reflects on how both Patrick and John at Stripe demonstrated this principle, influencing the company's growth and culture as it scaled.
"working with john from patrick i think you know the main thing i learned was just how to think and communicate more clearly patrick did that extremely well and then overall from both i sort of learned..."
Unlocking Pre-Mortems
Shreyas Doshi introduces the concept of pre-mortems, a proactive approach to identifying potential failures in projects before they occur. He contrasts this with traditional post-mortems, emphasizing the importance of psychological safety and shared vocabulary in fostering open discussions about risks. By imagining a project's failure and working backward, teams can uncover hidden threats and improve their chances of success.
"doing it and so many companies that have kind of done in different ways and so it's a good segue to kind of shifting to talk about the five big ideas the first is around this concept of pre-mortems th..."
The Power of Psychological Safety
In this segment, Shreyas discusses how pre-mortem meetings create an environment of psychological safety, allowing team members to voice concerns about potential failures without fear of negativity. He shares his experience at Stripe, where these meetings led to a lighter atmosphere, even when discussing worst-case scenarios. The segment highlights the importance of creating a shared vocabulary for discussing risks, including concepts like 'tigers,' 'paper tigers,' and 'elephants.'
"this prompt and then the way the meeting goes is you ask your team members to share what could have caused this utter failure and the magic of this type of approach where you kind of like work backwar..."
Executing Effective Pre-Mortems
Shreyas outlines the practical steps for conducting effective pre-mortem meetings, including who to invite and how to structure the discussion. He emphasizes the need for diverse team representation and shares his method of alternating between quiet reflection and open sharing. The segment also covers how to prioritize identified risks and create actionable plans to address them, showcasing the value of pre-mortems in preventing future problems.
"little bit deeper how would you how do you actually execute this meeting who do you invite what are the questions you ask when exactly do you do you do this that kind of stuff as i started doing pre-m..."
The Impact of Pre-Mortems
Shreyas reflects on the positive outcomes of implementing pre-mortems, noting a decrease in project failures and the identification of issues that might have otherwise gone unnoticed. He discusses the importance of creating a culture where team members feel safe to express concerns, ultimately leading to more successful launches and less need for reactive post-mortems. This segment underscores the low-cost, high-reward nature of pre-mortems in product management.
"projects failing less than having less problems like what kind of impact have you seen executing on this idea yeah absolutely i've seen us identify certain issues that just wouldn't have come up and l..."
Introducing the LNO Framework
Shreyas introduces the LNO framework, a method for prioritizing tasks based on their impact in product management. He shares a personal anecdote about his early struggles at Google, highlighting how the framework helped him differentiate between leverage tasks, neutral tasks, and overhead tasks. This segment sets the stage for understanding how to maximize productivity and effectiveness in high-pressure environments.
"that i've experienced i'm excited to see this template i haven't seen it yet i don't know that you put one together so that's awesome and yeah we'll link it in the in the notes of this episode i want ..."
The Burden of Perfectionism
Shreyas Doshi shares his struggles with perfectionism and the dissatisfaction it brought him during his career. He reflects on the endless to-do lists and the stress of not making enough progress, which affected his sleep and overall well-being. This segment highlights the emotional toll of high expectations in a demanding role.
"long hours etc but even at the end of the day i'd feel highly dissatisfied because my to-do list was endless and i wasn't able to make a dent on it and you know i was also a little bit of a perfection..."
Discovering the LNO Framework
In this segment, Shreyas discusses the pivotal moment he discovered the LNO framework, which categorizes tasks into leverage (L), neutral (N), and overhead (O) tasks. He explains how understanding these categories helped him prioritize effectively and focus on high-impact tasks, transforming his productivity and approach to work.
"discovered the ideas related to this lno framework in a blog post and i can't unfortunately i can't even find that blog post somewhere but it had some ideas that i took and then kind of created this l..."
Identifying Task Types
Shreyas elaborates on the characteristics of L, N, and O tasks, providing examples of how the same activity can fall into different categories based on context. He emphasizes the importance of recognizing these distinctions to allocate time and effort wisely, ultimately leading to greater productivity and impact.
"are actually only very few l tasks and so it made sense for me to focus a lot on those l tasks to take on those l tasks when i was feeling most productive most energetic during a certain time of the d..."
The Importance of Strategic Note-Taking
In this segment, Shreyas discusses the nuances of note-taking and how it can be classified as an L, N, or O task depending on the situation. He shares insights on when to invest time in perfecting notes versus when to prioritize speed and efficiency, illustrating the need for strategic thinking in everyday tasks.
"so that shift where usually for the same type of activity we we provide the same type of engagement one last example i'll use to illustrate this is taking notes it turns out even taking notes taking n..."
Overcoming Procrastination on L Tasks
Shreyas shares two effective tactics for overcoming procrastination on high-leverage tasks (L tasks). He discusses the concept of placebo productivity, where one fills their schedule with lower-priority tasks to prepare for tackling L tasks, and the power of changing one's work environment to enhance focus and motivation.
"task so hopefully that helps illustrate the some of the ideas behind the lno framework yeah and that's the last piece is a really good segue to the next big idea around optics and the important optics..."
The Fear of High-Leverage Tasks
In this segment, Shreyas reflects on the common fears associated with high-leverage tasks, such as strategy formulation and team alignment. He explains how these fears often lead to procrastination and emphasizes the importance of addressing them to unlock significant opportunities for impact.
"before we get to that i wanted to have one follow-up question what are some classic examples of high leverage tasks that pm should try to do more often and think about what kind of what's in that buck..."
The Cycle of Procrastination
Shreyas discusses the cycle of procrastination that many product managers face when it comes to high-impact tasks. He highlights the tendency to blame time constraints while recognizing the underlying fears that prevent them from tackling these crucial responsibilities head-on.
"and sometimes we console ourselves by saying yeah yeah that's because we have all these things going on this month but trust me next month we're gonna have ample time and i'm gonna just spend a whole ..."
Tactics for Tackling L Tasks
In this segment, Shreyas shares practical tactics for effectively addressing high-leverage tasks. He emphasizes the importance of recognizing the emotional barriers to these tasks and offers strategies to overcome them, encouraging product managers to confront their fears and prioritize impactful work.
"by the way everything i say here like i have been that person so i have been that person who's procrastinated on an l task whether it's the strategy or whether it's writing the prd for this really dif..."
Understanding the Three Levels of Product Work
Shreyas introduces the concept of the three levels of product work: impact, execution, and optics. He explains how understanding these levels can clarify priorities for product managers and help navigate conflicts within teams, ultimately leading to more effective product development.
"right just i fill up my day with nno tasks and i keep reminding myself yeah you're just doing neutral and overhead tasks because then that kind of just like tricks me into thinking okay if i've been d..."
Navigating Product Reviews
In this segment, Shreyas shares insights from his experiences during product reviews, illustrating how misalignment between a product manager's focus on execution and a CEO's focus on impact can lead to misunderstandings. He emphasizes the need for clear communication and alignment on priorities to ensure successful product outcomes.
"it it explains a lot of what you see in on product teams and organizations in general and so i'll perhaps start with a an example that most product people product leaders and founders are used to seei..."
Understanding Different Levels of Thinking
In this segment, Shreyas elaborates on the concept of thinking at different levels within an organization. He emphasizes that product managers often default to execution-level thinking, while leaders like CEOs focus on impact-level considerations. This fundamental difference can lead to conflicts and miscommunication, underscoring the need for awareness of these varying perspectives.
"doesn't he or she see that right and the reason is that you are thinking at different levels right like so you as a pm perhaps are fixated as you are dealing with this launch or this project you are f..."
The Importance of Optics in Product Management
Shreyas Doshi explains the role of optics in product management, emphasizing the need for awareness and communication within teams. He discusses how internal optics can create energy and excitement but warns against overemphasizing optics at the expense of execution. This balance is crucial for fostering a healthy organizational culture and achieving impactful results.
"helped explain a lot of things including you know what kind of people an organization will promote right like does it promote people who default operate at the impact level does it promote people who ..."
Navigating Organizational Culture and Optics
In this segment, Shreyas highlights the potential pitfalls of prioritizing optics over substantive execution in organizations. He discusses how a culture that rewards optics can lead to a focus on superficial activities rather than meaningful outcomes. This misalignment can hinder progress and create a toxic environment, making it essential for leaders to recognize and address these cultural dynamics.
"and and it's not like the organization woke up in the morning and said this is the culture we want to create it just happens again through little actions that occur every day it happens through who yo..."
Aligning Execution with Strategy
Shreyas Doshi shares insights on the relationship between execution problems and underlying strategy issues. He explains that many execution challenges stem from misalignment in strategy or culture rather than actual execution failures. By addressing these root causes, organizations can improve collaboration and effectiveness, leading to better outcomes.
"type of feedback sometimes that gets shared so so now you have vocabulary to talk about this and once you have that you sort of can as a team decide what is most important given your context i'll give..."
Identifying Strategy and Culture Problems
In this segment, Shreyas discusses how to identify whether execution problems are actually strategy or culture issues. He provides examples of how misalignment between teams can arise from unclear strategies or cultural pressures that discourage collaboration. Understanding these dynamics is crucial for leaders aiming to foster a more effective and cohesive work environment.
"situation so you talked about execution and how maybe for early stage startups that might be default the most important type of work to be focused on and that's actually a really good lead way to our ..."
The Role of Leadership in Execution Challenges
Shreyas Doshi emphasizes the importance of leadership in addressing execution challenges. He explains how leaders can become overwhelmed by optics and execution issues, often overlooking the strategic and cultural factors at play. By recognizing these underlying problems, leaders can implement more effective solutions that enhance team alignment and performance.
"made them busy is two things one is that somehow the organization had imposed very high optics requirements so they had to do a lot of optics-related work show up at certain status meetings and blah b..."
Culture's Impact on Team Collaboration
In this segment, Shreyas explores how organizational culture can affect team collaboration and execution. He discusses the challenges that arise when teams are incentivized to prioritize individual OKRs over collective goals, leading to misalignment and friction. Understanding these cultural dynamics is essential for fostering a collaborative environment that supports overall success.
"managers of these individual teams to do regular one-on-ones so they can stay in sync right like and and like so this type of scenario is extremely common again especially in high growth organizations..."
Addressing Interpersonal Conflicts in Teams
Shreyas Doshi highlights the significance of interpersonal relationships in team dynamics. He points out that conflicts between team leaders can hinder collaboration and execution. By addressing these interpersonal issues, leaders can create a more harmonious work environment that facilitates better communication and teamwork.
"where two teams are misaligned it's basically that you have a problem where you have set a culture that you are supposed to mainly optimize for your okrs right in a culture like that it becomes really..."
Identifying Execution Problems
In this segment, Shreyas explains the difference between true execution problems and those that are rooted in cultural or interpersonal issues. He provides examples of execution problems, such as infrastructure issues and skills gaps, and stresses the importance of recognizing these distinctions to effectively address team challenges.
"can set up the meeting and you can request all the sinks you want between these people it's not going to solve the culture problem the execution problem is going to manifest in different ways right a ..."
The Band-Aid Effect
Shreyas introduces the concept of the 'band-aid effect,' where organizations repeatedly apply temporary fixes to persistent problems without addressing the root causes. He emphasizes the need for leaders to maintain organizational memory and recognize when a solution is merely a band-aid, which can lead to ongoing execution issues.
"you know you have say engineers who are not particularly skilled in a certain technology or a certain type of scale that happen to be working in that area well that is going to create execution issues..."
Shifting from ROI to Opportunity Cost
Shreyas challenges the conventional focus on ROI in prioritization, advocating instead for a mindset that minimizes opportunity cost. He explains how high-leverage roles should prioritize tasks that offer the greatest potential impact rather than simply those that provide a positive return on investment.
"probably not an execution issue i love that visual of a band-aid falling off that's we've all seen that it's like it's like way to our fifth and final big idea maybe the most mind-bending of all your ..."
The Power of Opportunity Cost Thinking
In this segment, Shreyas elaborates on the concept of opportunity cost, explaining how it can lead to better decision-making in product management. He shares insights on how to identify high-impact opportunities that may be overlooked when focusing solely on quick wins or positive ROI.
"be hundreds of things that you can do that will provide a positive roi right and what is positive roi it's simply that the value created is greater than the value of your time right that essentially w..."
Prioritization in Practice
Shreyas shares practical examples from his experience at Stripe, illustrating how shifting focus from positive ROI to opportunity cost can lead to significant business impact. He discusses the importance of exploring ambiguous opportunities that could change the trajectory of a product or business.
"meaning you need to be working on the optimal things right so when we reprogram ourselves to think in terms of opportunity cost we are no longer thinking oh is this a good use of my time right instead..."
Strategic Time Allocation
Shreyas concludes by discussing how leaders can guide their teams in planning by allocating time across different types of activities. He references Google's 70-20-10 model and emphasizes the need for teams to balance incremental improvements with big initiatives and infrastructure stability.
"sort of shifting the mindset from just positive roi to minimizing opportunity cost just one more question along this line tactically every pm ends up with like a spreadsheet of their ideas and roi and..."
The Power of High Agency
In this segment, Shreyas introduces the concept of 'high agency,' a term coined by Eric Weinstein. He explains how high agency individuals find ways to achieve their goals despite adverse conditions, which is particularly crucial for product managers. Shreyas emphasizes that ownership, creative execution, and resilience are key traits that differentiate successful product managers from those who underperform.
"the market i would like us to target about 60 of our time incrementals and by that i mean incremental features that improve users lives on a day-to-day basis so these are like actually high roi things..."
Identifying High Agency in Product Managers
Shreyas reflects on his experiences with product managers who have made significant impacts despite challenges. He contrasts high agency individuals who exceed expectations with those who, despite having potential, fail to deliver. This segment highlights the importance of ownership and resilience in achieving success in product management.
"that is for pm's yeah and i think eric weinstein coined this term high agency which like once i discovered it kind of resonated a lot and kind of aligned with some of my ideas and the way i had define..."
Connecting with Shreyas Doshi
As the conversation wraps up, Shreyas shares how listeners can connect with him on Twitter and LinkedIn. He discusses his upcoming course on product management and encourages sharing insights from the episode. This segment emphasizes the importance of community and collaboration in the product management field.
"the impact they're achieving uh so that and also the the reverse of that which is sometimes you have pms who just have tremendous potential they look great on paper and you know when you're working wi..."