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Seth Godin's best tactics for building remarkable products, strategies, brands and more
35 segments available
Seth Godin is a legend. He’s a marketer, teacher, entrepreneur, and author of more than 20 books, including Purple Cow, Permission Marketing, and Linchpin. He also writes one of the most popular and longest-running blogs in the world (approaching publishing 10,000 in a row!) and continues to shape how we think about marketing, brand, product, and creating lasting change in the world. In our conversation, we discuss: • How to build remarkable products that spread • The four critical strategic choices that determine your future • How to develop good taste and high standards • The role of tension in great strategy • How Seth used Claude to write his newest book • Much more — Brought to you by: • DX—A platform for measuring and improving developer productivity: https://getdx.com/lenny • Vanta—Automate compliance. Simplify security: https://vanta.com/lenny • Paragon—Ship every SaaS integration your customers want: https://www.useparagon.com/lenny Find the transcript at: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/seth-godins-tactics-for-building-remarkable-products Where to find Seth Godin: • Blog: http://seths.blog/ • LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/sethgodin • Website: https://www.sethgodin.com Where to find Lenny: • Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com • X: https://twitter.com/lennysan • LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/ In this episode, we cover: (00:00) Seth’s background (05:17) Understanding good taste and upholding high standards (08:09) Become the best at whatever you do (09:48) Seth’s journey as a product manager (14:09) What people often get wrong when building products (16:00) Building a brand in the age of AI (19:04) Using AI to enhance writing (22:40) Four critical elements for an effective strategy (27:38) The role of tension in strategy (29:15) The concept of the purple cow (33:11) "Safe is risky" (34:56) The power of systems (37:07) Better waves make better surfers (38:10) Rebranding vs. re-logoing (43:07) Empathetic leadership (44:14) Conclusion and farewell Referenced: • Seth Godin on the Tim Ferriss Show: https://tim.blog/2024/03/20/seth-godin-3/ • Persuasive communication and managing up | Wes Kao (Maven, Seth Godin, Section4): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/persuasive-communication-wes-kao • Spinnaker: https://spinnaker.io • Ray Bradbury: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ray_Bradbury • Arthur C. Clarke: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arthur_C._Clarke • Isaac Asimov: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isaac_Asimov • Roger Zelazny: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roger_Zelazny • Herbie Hancock: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herbie_Hancock • Fahrenheit 451 (game): https://www.filfre.net/2013/09/fahrenheit-451-the-game/ • RTFM: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RTFM# • Intercom: https://www.intercom.com • Claude: https://claude.ai • ChatGPT: https://chatgpt.com • Anthropic: https://www.anthropic.com • Steam: https://store.steampowered.com • P.F. Flyers: https://pfflyers.com • Steve Blank’s website: https://steveblank.com • Marissa Mayer on X: https://x.com/marissamayer • Jaguar unveils new logo ahead of electric relaunch: https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cgr0pw00n7qo • IHOP Becomes IHOb, the International House of ... Burgers: https://www.npr.org/2018/06/11/618844977/ihop-becomes-ihob-the-international-house-of-burgers • Oreo’s Super Bowl Power-Outage Tweet Was 18 Months in the Making: https://www.businessinsider.com/oreos-super-bowl-power-outage-tweet-was-18-months-in-the-making-2013-3 • Tesla’s New ‘Ludicrous Mode’ Makes the Model S a Supercar: https://www.wired.com/2015/07/teslas-new-ludicrous-mode-makes-model-s-supercar Recommended books: • This Is Strategy: Make Better Plans (Create a Strategy to Elevate Your Career, Community & Life): https://www.amazon.com/This-Strategy-Better-Elevate-Community/dp/B0D47T8S7N • Purple Cow: Transform Your Business by Being Remarkable: https://www.amazon.com/Purple-Cow-New-Transform-Remarkable/dp/1591843170 Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email podcast@lennyrachitsky.com. Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed.
Segments Timeline
The Future of AI Branding
Seth Godin discusses the evolving landscape of AI branding, emphasizing that AI will soon be as ubiquitous as electricity. He stresses the importance for companies to articulate a clear promise to users and to maintain that promise, highlighting the role of tension in effective strategy and innovation.
"before you came on I asked on Twitter what should I ask Seth Goen the most recurring theme actually had to do with AI how do you think all these new AI companies build Brands to distinguish and differ..."
Seth Godin: A Marketing Legend
In this segment, Lenny introduces Seth Godin, a prolific author and marketer known for his impactful insights on branding and strategy. Seth shares his journey, including his experience as a product manager and the principles that guide his work, such as the importance of understanding how ideas spread and the need for high standards.
"the critical choices and you probably have glossed over them today my guest is Seth Goden Seth is an absolute Legend he's published 21 books including 18 International bestsellers he's been blogging e..."
Building Good Taste and High Standards
Seth Godin explains how to recognize and cultivate good taste and high standards in your work. He defines good taste as anticipating what others want before they do and emphasizes the importance of relentless improvement in service of the audience, rather than merely meeting specifications.
"to know if you have good taste and how to build your taste how to build a brand in an increasingly crowded world of AI startups and AI content his thoughts on the Jaguar Rebrand and also the Tesla cyb..."
Finding Joy in Any Job
Seth shares a powerful perspective on finding fulfillment in any job, inspired by Martin Luther King Jr. He encourages listeners to embrace their roles, regardless of how menial they may seem, and to strive to be the best at what they do, adding delight to others' experiences.
"Lenny was my late mom's nickname so it's good good to see that out loud that's so cool I've never heard it used for a woman and every Lenny out there I've met is wonderful I imagine she's wonderful fi..."
Seth's Journey as a Product Manager
Seth recounts his early career as a product manager at Spiner Software, where he learned the importance of delighting customers over merely meeting job expectations. He reflects on how this experience shaped his understanding of product development and customer satisfaction.
"including Those Behind the Door and space Frameworks it combines quantitative data from developer tools with qualitative feedback from developers to give you a complete view of engineering productivit..."
The Joy of Being Exceptional
Seth Godin reflects on the value of embracing excellence in any job, even menial ones. He emphasizes that true fulfillment comes from adding delight to others' experiences rather than just going through the motions. This segment highlights the importance of passion and engagement in work, showcasing how a positive attitude can transform even the simplest tasks.
"over again so what would it be like to be the best Barista in the world for an hour would that be worth it for you because I've had menial jobs in food service and I got to tell you when the boss forc..."
Seth's Lucky Break in Product Management
Seth shares his unexpected journey into product management during his time at Spiner Software. He recounts how a secret project involving educational computer games based on science fiction novels became a pivotal moment in his career. This segment illustrates the importance of seizing opportunities and the role of luck in shaping one's professional path.
"you just share that part of your life because I don't think people know that all right so the origin story could take all day but I'm not going to tell the whole thing I'm going to tell the part that ..."
Becoming a De Facto Product Manager
In this segment, Seth discusses how he became the de facto product manager by fostering relationships with engineers and creating a culture of collaboration. He emphasizes that marketing is integral to product development, not just an afterthought. This insight reveals the interconnectedness of marketing and product management in achieving success.
"going to be make the packaging and run the ads and what I discovered first of all is that I couldn't really go back to business school so I showed up hardly at all at Stanford and just you know took a..."
Thriving Under Pressure
Seth recounts the intense pressure he faced while managing a critical project with a looming deadline. He shares how he dedicated himself to ensuring the project's success, highlighting the thrill of making impactful decisions. This segment underscores the importance of commitment and resilience in the face of challenges.
"manager and that is when I learned marketing is the product you don't make a product and then hand it to some marketing Yahoo and say go put a a logo on that the product we made and five in a row went..."
A Call from Herbie Hancock
Seth shares a memorable moment when jazz legend Herbie Hancock called him about the project he was managing. This anecdote illustrates the excitement and validation that comes from creating something remarkable. It also highlights the unexpected connections that can arise in the creative process.
"the phone rings and it's Herby Hancock on the phone the great jazz musician and Herby says the the receptionist said you're the person in charge of Fahrenheit 451 and I said Herby I'm 24 years old rig..."
Key Insights for Product Builders
Seth offers valuable insights for product builders, emphasizing that empathy is essential and that good intentions alone are not enough. He stresses the importance of managing time and resources effectively to avoid project failures. This segment provides practical advice for anyone involved in product development.
"that the thing about projects is when you run out of time and you run out of money the project is over don't run out of time don't run out of out of money good intentions are no reason for an extensio..."
Building for Network Effects
In this segment, Seth discusses the necessity of incorporating network effects into software products. He explains that successful products must encourage users to share and promote them. This insight is crucial for entrepreneurs and product managers looking to create viral products that gain traction in the market.
"why would they tell other people about it and if they don't tell other people about it no one's going to hear about it but if the answer is yes then your marketing problem is pretty much solved there ..."
Defining Brand Beyond Logos
Seth clarifies the concept of branding, stating that a brand is a promise rather than just a logo. He emphasizes the importance of standing for something and delivering on promises to build a strong brand. This segment is essential for understanding how to create lasting brand loyalty in a competitive market.
"want to build a brand you got to stand for something and you got to say what you don't do and the second thing is AI very soon is going to stop being a feature the same way electricity is not a featur..."
Using AI to Enhance Writing
Seth discusses his experience using AI, specifically Claude, to assist in writing his book. He shares how AI can serve as a valuable tool for brainstorming and refining ideas, while still maintaining the author's voice. This segment highlights the potential of AI in creative processes and its role in modern writing.
"made fewer promis are probably being kept so is the advice there continue making an ambitious promise and then the key is actually deliver on that and that's what builds your brand yeah and you know I..."
The Daily Blogging Challenge
Seth reflects on his commitment to daily blogging, revealing how it transformed his writing mindset. Initially feeling pressured, he shifted to viewing writing as an opportunity rather than a chore. This change allowed him to produce content more freely and creatively, leading to a backlog of ideas and a more enjoyable writing experience.
"find in the real world because editors aren't paid enough and given enough time to do their job right and what I find is if I have a sentence that doesn't sound enough like me I can ask Claude to help..."
The Importance of Integration
Seth introduces Paragon, a platform that simplifies the integration of third-party applications into products. He highlights the significance of integrations in B2B software, explaining how they can accelerate product development and enhance user experience, allowing companies to focus on core features rather than maintenance.
"extra ones this episode is brought to you by Paragon the developer platform for building native customer facing Integrations with thirdparty apps are native Integrations on your product road map wheth..."
Defining Strategy: Key Choices
Seth Godin outlines four critical choices that shape a product's strategy: choosing customers, competition, validation, and distribution. He emphasizes the importance of making deliberate choices to ensure a product's success and warns against glossing over these decisions, as they significantly impact the future of the business.
"on their Pro and Enterprise plans that's use p a r a n.com so let's talk about your book you wrote a new book uh it's called this a strategy I've been reading it over the past week and I've been so uh..."
Choosing Your Customers Wisely
In this segment, Seth elaborates on the necessity of selecting the right customer base for a product. He explains how understanding the target audience's characteristics and needs can dictate the product's development and overall success, using examples to illustrate the consequences of poor customer selection.
"hope is that you have to win SEO to get anything you're not going to succeed when you choose your smallest viable audience what language they speak how much money they have what problem they're trying..."
Understanding Competition and Validation
Seth discusses the importance of recognizing competition and establishing clear validation criteria for a product. He advises against trying to please everyone and stresses the need to focus on the target audience's preferences, which can lead to more effective product development and better alignment with market needs.
"your customers okay so then the second one which comes with that is who's your competition because if you're competing against Walmart why are you surprised that they keep lowering their prices that's..."
The Role of Tension in Strategy
Seth Godin explains the concept of tension in strategy, distinguishing it from stress. He argues that tension is essential for innovation and creativity, as it drives the desire for improvement and the pursuit of promises made to customers. This segment highlights how effective strategies leverage tension to engage and motivate both creators and consumers.
"product You're Building understands this is how you will be distributed this is who you're selling to right yeah I mean so a friend just sent me a a business plan they're making a a a food product and..."
The Art of Promise and Delivery
In this concluding segment, Seth emphasizes the importance of delivering on promises made to customers. He shares a personal anecdote about PF Flyers, illustrating how unmet expectations can lead to disappointment. This discussion reinforces the idea that successful brands must maintain integrity and follow through on their commitments to build trust.
"Innovation tension is it might not work tension is and the other person says because they need to finish the sentence so what we do when we launch a new product is we say we have have this thing that ..."
Understanding the Purple Cow
Godin introduces the concept of the Purple Cow, explaining that being remarkable means creating products worth talking about. He highlights the significance of customer traction and word-of-mouth marketing, urging entrepreneurs to focus on making products that enhance lives and encourage sharing.
"and they didn't tell the truth it comes back to your point about not not uh delivering on the promise that you make to build a great brand right okay I want to take a little tangent into Purple Cow te..."
The Role of Simplicity in Success
Seth discusses how simplicity in product design can lead to remarkable success, using Google as an example. He explains that fewer options can create a clearer promise to users, making it easier for them to engage and share their experiences, ultimately driving brand loyalty.
"single best way to tell if a startup's got any hope whatsoever is do the people who engage with you stick around do they come back for more the second piece is do they tell their friends and if they t..."
Creating Tension for Innovation
Godin elaborates on the idea that creating tension can lead to innovation. He discusses how companies like Salesforce have leveraged tension in their marketing strategies to disrupt traditional systems, encouraging entrepreneurs to embrace risk and challenge the status quo.
"only going to be two buttons on the homepage and over and over again at the time I was at Yahoo yaho had the chance to buy Google for $10 million while I was there that's a whole interesting story but..."
Better Waves Make Better Surfers
Seth introduces the metaphor 'better waves make better surfers,' emphasizing the importance of choosing the right opportunities. He encourages entrepreneurs to wait for the right moment or talent rather than rushing to meet deadlines, as this can lead to mediocrity.
"raise my status as a tech innovator and the implication here and you talked about this is that most likely the way you will win is word of mouth it's hard to win with PID ads it's hard to win with sal..."
Challenging the System
Godin discusses the importance of recognizing and challenging existing systems in business. He explains how systems can reinforce mediocrity and limit diversity, urging entrepreneurs to identify and disrupt these patterns to foster innovation and inclusivity.
"thing that was kind of uh controversial it comes back to your point of creating tension created feels like it created tension both with visitors and internally there's also these quotes that I have he..."
The Importance of Strategic Thinking
Seth emphasizes that strategic thinking involves understanding the systems at play in any given context. He shares insights on how to navigate these systems effectively, encouraging entrepreneurs to be aware of the cultural norms that may hinder their success.
"but what you should do is think about why does it scare me to do this what system will be offended if I do that am I trying to work with the system or am I leveraged enough to help change the system a..."
The Toxicity of Hiring Patterns
Godin highlights the dangers of hiring practices that favor similarity over diversity. He warns that such patterns can stifle innovation and limit the potential of teams, urging leaders to recognize and change these toxic systems for better outcomes.
"your advice for how to be better you have this actual quote what does it mean to be a strategic thinker it means to see the system what else can you share about just for people that are trying to beco..."
Navigating Change in Business
Seth discusses the need for businesses to adapt and change in response to evolving systems. He encourages entrepreneurs to embrace experimentation and challenge existing norms, as this is essential for fostering innovation and achieving long-term success.
"jobs and the most successful interviews are people where they show that they are like us they look like us they went to schools like us they have privilege and background like us that is toxic because..."
Choosing the Right Wave: Success in Strategy
In this segment, Godin introduces the metaphor of 'better waves make better surfers' to illustrate how success is often determined by the opportunities we choose. He encourages listeners to be patient and selective in their decisions, whether it's hiring talent or launching products, to avoid mediocrity and achieve remarkable outcomes.
"chance to change the rules you know this metaphor that I love that's kind of along these lines of better waves make better Surfers that a lot of your success is driven by choosing the wave versus the ..."
Jaguar's Rebranding Misstep
Seth Godin critiques Jaguar's recent rebranding efforts, arguing that they failed to leverage their iconic status and instead opted for a superficial logo change. He explains that true rebranding should focus on building trust and maintaining the brand's legacy rather than appeasing design trends. Godin emphasizes the importance of understanding customer perception and the risks of alienating loyal consumers.
"about this I'm thinking about I don't know if you saw Jaguars Rebrand in their whole launch and uh uh feels like it's been rejected by the system uh any thoughts on on that maybe what they got wrong o..."
The Importance of Customer Traction
Godin highlights the significance of customer traction in the automotive industry, using Tesla's early strategies as a case study. He explains how Tesla created buzz through innovative features and customer experiences, contrasting this with Jaguar's approach. Godin argues that successful marketing is about providing utility and transforming customer experiences rather than relying on gimmicks.
"going for feels like they got very you know very controversial they went against the status quo uh more maybe than they should I don't know what do you what would you have done if you were them you ma..."
Crossing the Chasm in Product Adoption
In this insightful discussion, Godin elaborates on the challenges of introducing new products to a skeptical market. He explains how understanding consumer behavior and addressing their needs is crucial for successful adoption. Godin uses the example of pickup trucks to illustrate how brands can effectively cross the chasm by aligning with consumer expectations and desires.
"drive at 0 to 60 in 2.4 seconds and they'd start screaming this was fun for you and told the story to the passenger this is how customer traction begins because I can't do that in a different car righ..."
Empathy in Leadership and Vision
Seth Godin shares his philosophy on leadership, emphasizing the need for empathy in painting a vision for the future. He argues that leaders must understand and address the desires of their audience rather than impose their own vision. This segment underscores the importance of service-oriented leadership in achieving meaningful change and fostering loyalty.
"how you become really significant feel like this alone could be its own separate podcast conversation I wish we had more time I'm gonna ask one last question uh and this is a quote that I found of you..."
Closing Thoughts and Resources
In the conclusion of the podcast, Seth Godin reflects on his insights and encourages listeners to explore his blog for more resources. He shares his belief in the power of service and the importance of helping others achieve their goals. This segment wraps up the conversation, inviting the audience to continue learning from Godin's work.
"wanted to go in the first place Seth this was a dream come true I appreciate you coming on the podcast I appreciate you saying that uh work can people check out your book where where should people go ..."