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Cambridge Professor: Why All Writing Sounds the Same Now
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I interviewed Robert Macfarlane, a writer who has mastered the art of nature writing. What makes him fascinating isn’t just that he writes beautifully about landscapes, but how he thinks about language itself. We talked about why he rewrites first sentences hundreds of times, what happens when entire languages die forever, why AI makes all writing sound the same, and how to build a stronger feel for using vivid and rich language. If you want to write more powerfully and develop your distinctive voice, this conversation will show you how to do that. Enjoy! 00:00:00 Growing Up in Mountains 00:06:16 How to Write Like Water Flows 00:10:12 Why He Rewrites First Sentences 100 Times 00:16:15 How Messy Notebooks Become Real Books 00:21:37 How Your Brain Finds Hidden Patterns 00:27:03 Why Wonder Keeps Kids Alive 00:34:34 It Took 300 Pages to Answer One Question 00:42:52 Do Writers Plan Their Books or Wing It? 00:48:06 Why He Started Writing About People Too 00:53:08 How Learning Songs Made Him a Better Writer 01:00:19 He Spent 3 Years Collecting Weird Words 01:04:30 Why Writing Is Like Making Pottery 01:08:44 Why AI Makes All Writing Sound the Same 01:11:32 How to Make Readers Feel 'Visceral' 01:19:35 Why Some Words Feel Thick and Heavy 01:23:54 Why "Cut Extra Words" Is Terrible Advice 01:27:08 The Weird Fact About the Word "River Hey! I’m David Perell and I’m a writer, teacher, and podcaster. I believe writing online is one of the biggest opportunities in the world today. For the first time in human history, everybody can freely share their ideas with a global audience. I seek to help as many people publish their writing online as possible. Follow me Apple: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/how-i-write/id1700171470 Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/2DjMSboniFAeGA8v9NpoPv X: https://x.com/david_perell
Segments Timeline
Growing Up in the Mountains
Robert Macfarlane reflects on how growing up in the mountains has shaped his sensitivity to nature and language. He describes the intense experiences of mountain life, emphasizing how the environment has influenced his writing and connection to the world. Macfarlane shares his belief that mountains have made him more aware of the beauty and danger of nature, which informs his work.
"Well, you write so beautifully about nature. You've been writing for 22 years and you've written about all different kinds of nature. You've written about mountains and rivers and you've written about..."
The Challenge of Describing Light
In this segment, Macfarlane discusses the difficulty of capturing the essence of light through language. He recounts a personal experience of witnessing a stunning sunset and the frustration of feeling unable to adequately describe its beauty. He argues that language is inherently limited when it comes to representing the fleeting nature of light, suggesting that metaphor is a more effective way to evoke its qualities.
"single day. And I was like, I wish I could describe this. How did I do that? Has it faded? I don't know. I feel like I can't explain it to you and it makes me sad. It was so beautiful. Well, there was..."
Embracing Metaphor in Writing
Macfarlane emphasizes the importance of metaphor in writing, arguing that it allows for a more profound connection to nature. He critiques the idea of capturing nature, suggesting that it leads to a loss of its essence. Instead, he advocates for using metaphor to evoke impressions and perceptions, similar to how impressionist painters convey their experiences rather than attempting to replicate reality.
"it becomes our captive and then it prows restlessly backwards and forwards in its cage and it's not itself. So is it like I'm thinking of an impressionist painting, right? I think of a Monae. He's not..."
Writing with Rivers
In this segment, Macfarlane explores the concept of writing with rivers as a co-author. He discusses how the choice of prepositions can shift the relationship between the writer and the subject, illustrating the difference between writing about rivers and writing with them. This nuanced approach highlights the interconnectedness of the writer's experience and the natural world.
"can come on to talk about the the buys the widths the next to the aboves the belows all of those. Let's go into it. Yeah. Okay. Well, I I love to speak for prepositions because they they they they don..."
Rhythm and Flow in Writing
Macfarlane delves into the rhythm and flow of writing, comparing it to the various movements of rivers. He explains how different water forms require distinct rhythms and tones in writing. By drawing parallels between the physical characteristics of rivers and the structure of sentences, he illustrates how to convey speed and fluidity in prose.
"your writing. Well, so rhythm is some is I'm an obsessive about many things. I'm an obsessive obsessive, but so you've so far heard me on prepositions. You should come on how I write sometimes. I feel..."
Crafting Powerful First Lines
In this segment, Macfarlane shares his obsession with crafting first lines, revealing that he often rewrites them hundreds of times. He discusses the significance of a compelling opening sentence and how it sets the tone for the entire work. By analyzing examples from his own writing, he demonstrates how rhythm, alliteration, and mystery can engage readers from the very start.
"So so rhythm what does that mean in terms of like non-fiction? I've so first lines I probably spend longer on first lines than than than than whole chapters and they get rewritten hundreds of times. S..."
The Essence of River Language
Macfarlane concludes this segment by discussing the essence of river language and its various flows. He emphasizes that writing about rivers is not just about speed; it encompasses a range of experiences and emotions. By reflecting on his own paddling experiences, he illustrates how different water conditions can inspire diverse writing styles and rhythms.
"a text in which something other other forms and forces are going to be active here. Yeah, maybe you can help me ground this, but I'm thinking about the different flows of rivers, right? There's rapids..."
Writing with the Flow of Water
Robert Macfarlane discusses how different bodies of water inspire distinct writing styles. He explains how the rhythms and tones of his prose change based on whether he is describing a calm lake or a rushing river. Macfarlane emphasizes the importance of capturing the reader's experience through language that mirrors the speed and chaos of nature, creating a visceral connection.
"and there's nothing like you get dropped we got dropped in at the head of this lake magpie that's 75 km long that's like it's from my home to the center of London Canadian scale boggles my tiny Englis..."
From Scribbles to Books: The Alchemy of Writing
Macfarlane shares his process of transforming messy notes into coherent books. He describes how he captures fleeting thoughts and sensory experiences in small notebooks, which later serve as the foundation for his writing. This segment highlights the laborious yet magical journey of turning fragmented ideas into polished narratives, emphasizing the importance of capturing the essence of experiences.
"buried in a rapid like that. Yeah. Tell me about how when you're out the notes become Oh, yeah. become books because you start off and you write these little scribbles. Yes. Just little scribbles here..."
The Heartwork of Writing: Finding Deeper Connections
In this segment, Macfarlane reflects on the deeper work involved in writing, which he refers to as 'heartwork.' He discusses how recurring images, such as the open hand, emerge from his notebooks and become central themes in his writing. This exploration of pattern recognition reveals how writers can uncover profound connections within their experiences and observations.
"fresh from the fire. Like they're hot and they're they glow. Um they're ill they're they're unformed in terms of ways that could be communicable to other people. Like nobody could read my notebooks an..."
The Wonder of Nature: A Childlike Perspective
Macfarlane emphasizes the importance of wonder as a survival skill, particularly in relation to nature. He shares a conversation with his son that highlights how children naturally understand the beauty and simplicity of the world. This segment explores the idea that maintaining a sense of wonder is crucial for adults to reconnect with the miraculous aspects of life.
"for me. What's an example? Yeah. Really, really good question. And so when I was writing a book called Underland, which took me eight years, um I came to realize that there was a a series of images th..."
The Essential Skill of Wonder
Macfarlane reflects on the importance of wonder as a survival skill, particularly in children. He shares a conversation with his son about the simplicity of nature's truths, highlighting how adults often lose this innate sense of wonder and connection with the natural world.
"River Alive, one of the things that occurred to me is that there was a sense of awareness that you had a connection with nature, an attunement that I think we lose as adults. and you were talking to y..."
Science and Wonder: A Harmonious Relationship
In this segment, Macfarlane explores the relationship between science and wonder, arguing that understanding the mechanics of nature can enhance our appreciation of its beauty. He shares his childhood reluctance to learn scientific explanations, preferring to maintain the mystery of the universe.
"world. A rain a rainbow is like I mean a rainbow is I I think when you see a rainbow you still stop and of course oh my goodness the most magnificent rainbow. I just stood there by the windows like wo..."
The Power of Perception
Macfarlane discusses how perception shapes our experience of the world, referencing William Blake's poetry. He emphasizes the importance of recognizing the vastness of experience contained within seemingly simple elements of nature, like a grain of sand or a tree.
"a little bit better how it works. So I don't see science and wonder as as opposed. But I um I always struggle with that. When I was a kid I used to tell my science teachers I don't want to know. I don..."
Writing with Rhythm and Wonder
Macfarlane shares his approach to writing for children, focusing on the interplay of wonder, rhythm, and sound. He recites a spell he wrote for children about otters, illustrating how language can evoke imagery and connection to nature.
"wonder is super powerful and it's kids have it, right? Not always. No, I mean children, but I sometimes call children wonder. Like that they're not astronauts, they're wonder. They're continually voya..."
The Enchantment of Awe
This segment delves into the concept of awe, drawing parallels between wonder and the ability to perceive the extraordinary in the ordinary. Macfarlane reflects on how a simple grain of sand can embody vast histories and experiences.
"I'm trying to do. And then watching children actually take take those and speak them aloud as I get these wonderful films sent to me of children kind of on river banks speaking the otter spell and the..."
Exploring Different Scales of Existence
Macfarlane discusses the significance of different scales in understanding the world, from the microscopic to the cosmic. He reflects on historical advancements in technology that have revealed these scales, emphasizing the writer's role in navigating and representing them.
"can be so vast. And I think if you're writing about nature, that applies to everything, right? Yeah. Blake's a wonderful example. And uh he also says the uh the green tree uh is to some people just th..."
The Challenge of Unlearning
In this thought-provoking segment, Macfarlane addresses the difficulty of unlearning rational perspectives to embrace a more holistic view of nature. He highlights how children often perceive reality with greater clarity and wonder than adults.
"technology. And technology is is amazing at that. But yes, as a writer, I'm I'm often interested in in in nesting different scales um uh next to or within one another. Yeah. The other thing I wanted t..."
Mystery and Language in Nature Writing
Macfarlane shares his belief that the universe is filled with mystery, and that language often falls short in capturing the essence of experiences in nature. He recounts a transformative river journey that reshaped his understanding of the natural world.
"get at with the kids that there's a way that kids see reality more clearly than adults do. But it's also enchanted. Yes. And it's filled with mystery and awe. And that was one of the through lines of ..."
Questions that Open New Worlds
Macfarlane discusses the power of profound questions in his writing, such as 'Is a river alive?' He explains how these questions serve as portals to deeper understanding and exploration of nature, revealing complexities and mysteries that enrich the narrative.
"to? Do you do you recognize I mean on the river I had this encounter at the end of this big big river journey at the end of four years of of of river travel with something that I can only describe as ..."
The Question of Climbing Mountains
Robert Macfarlane reflects on the age-old question of why we climb mountains, referencing George Mallory's famous response, 'Because it's there.' He critiques this answer as unhelpful and explores the deeper complexities behind such seemingly simple questions, likening them to portals that lead to greater understanding and exploration.
"right tell me about those questions yeah so the the very first book I wrote in my um early to mid20s was a book called mountains of the mind I grew up as a mountaineer and a climber as I mentioned and..."
Questions as Portals
Macfarlane elaborates on the concept of questions serving as portals to deeper insights. He draws parallels between these questions and literary devices, suggesting that they lead to vast expanses of thought and creativity. He shares personal anecdotes about how these questions have shaped his writing journey.
"took me 300 in is a river alive and and I didn't come to the end of any of them but I think having that puzzle that enigma the enigma wrapped in the mystery I think is a is is a is a phrase for it the..."
Writing Letters to My Future Self
In this segment, Macfarlane discusses his unique practice of writing letters to his future self at the start of a book project. He explains how this helps him articulate his hopes and intentions for the book, acknowledging the inevitable changes that will occur over the years of writing.
"begins with an image of from Narnia. The very first page has an image of of my grandma because I remember my grandmother's wardrobe with her fur coats hanging in it up in the mountains and I would pus..."
The Power of Subjectifying Nature
Macfarlane shares a powerful quote from Ursula K. Le Guin about viewing nature as kinfolk rather than mere resources. He emphasizes the importance of subjectifying the universe to foster a deeper connection with the world around us, which is crucial for writers seeking to evoke rich imagery in their work.
"is looking back at those letters when I finished the book and and seeing the relationship and sometimes it's hugely discrepant and other times it's surprisingly close. So with those questions, do you ..."
The Adventure of Writing
Macfarlane compares the writing process to an adventure, using the metaphor of white-water rafting. He discusses the challenges and unpredictability of writing, emphasizing the importance of intuition and the flow of ideas that guide him through the creative journey.
"question seems simple, the key that unlocks the door, but actually the real work is because to really answer yes, if you're not a 9-year-old to the question, is a river alive? Those of us raised on ra..."
Walking Upstream in a River
In this segment, Macfarlane describes the physical and metaphorical experience of writing as akin to walking upstream in a river. He explains how the act of writing requires balance and effort, and how the flow of ideas can both challenge and guide the writer.
"relentless. Exactly. It's just push push push pressure. And one thing I've found from physically walking in rivers, which I do quite a lot because they make great paths, especially where the forest is..."
The Role of People in Writing
Macfarlane discusses the significance of relationships with other people in the writing process. He highlights how interactions with fascinating individuals can enrich his work, providing inspiration and dialogue that enhance the narrative.
"with Rivers and what is your relationship with other people in the bookw writing process. We sort of got it actually with that Ursula quote, right? Where you get other writers who are almost giving yo..."
Writing About Fascinating People
In this segment, Macfarlane shares his experiences traveling with intriguing individuals, such as a mycologist in Ecuador. He emphasizes the importance of capturing their unique perspectives and voices in his writing, which adds depth and authenticity to his narratives.
"specialist. So um so for example Juliana Fertie this uh Chilean Italian field micologist mushroom fungy specialist who I traveled with in Ecuador. She's one of the most amazing people I've ever met. A..."
Conversations as Co-Creation
Macfarlane reflects on the nature of meaningful conversations, likening them to a collaborative process of co-creation. He discusses how genuine dialogue can lead to new insights and ideas, enriching both the writer's work and the relationship with others.
"She's written the field guides to the fungy of Chile. So we're not talking about a kind of, you know, crystal swinging mystic. I mean, she's hardcore scientist. She's uh but she goes about things a di..."
The Influence of Poetry on Writing
Macfarlane explores the impact of poetry on his writing style, emphasizing the importance of rhythm, sound, and memorization. He shares how his experiences with songwriting and collaborating with artists have shaped his approach to writing, particularly in his latest book.
"And all this is to say in the writing process when you're with somebody like that woman or your friend who you go kayaking with, there's probably things that can get into your book that you would neve..."
Learning from Songwriting
In this segment, Macfarlane shares insights gained from his experiences in songwriting and collaborating with artists. He discusses how writing lyrics has influenced his long-form writing, particularly in terms of sound transitions and the interplay of images. This exploration reveals how different writing forms can inform and enhance one another.
"full length coral works. I've also written a bunch of albums and actually have to say songwriting writing lyrics has become I I think all of these have helped me with with is a river alive. I think th..."
The Art of Writing for Voice
Macfarlane delves into the intricacies of writing for multiple voices, emphasizing the importance of sound currents and transitions in lyrical writing. He illustrates how the nuances of spoken language can inform written expression, highlighting the need for careful consideration of how words flow together. This segment showcases the technical aspects of writing that contribute to its musicality.
"which was very cool. Um, and I expected you expected to hear, but the most recent one, the one I've just finished, is called The World Tree. Okay. And it's uh uh it's about this do did you follow the ..."
Embracing Looseness in Writing
Macfarlane discusses the value of allowing images and ideas to intermingle freely in writing. He contrasts his meticulous approach as a prose writer with the more fluid nature of songwriting, advocating for a balance between control and creative looseness. This segment encourages writers to embrace spontaneity and cross-pollination of ideas in their work.
"think about this the kind of sound currents of single phrases and the singability and that is not something as a writer you would quite you would quite think about. But um in in writing song lyrics, I..."
The Concept of Glitch in Art
In this thought-provoking segment, Macfarlane explores the idea of 'glitch' in artistic expression. He explains how perceived imperfections can enhance the emotional resonance of a piece, using his song 'Uncanny Valley' as an example. This discussion invites listeners to reconsider the role of flaws in creativity and how they can contribute to a deeper understanding of art.
"Uncanny Valley with my friend Johnny Flynn. It's a re it was so we all got lost in the uncanny valley. Took a wrong turn at the end of the alley. Uh no one had a map and no one kept alally in the unca..."
The Speed of Language: A Glitch Poem
Macfarlane shares a glitch poem that captures the essence of speed and movement through language. He illustrates how the quickness of the subject creates a sense of blurring, paralleling the concept of glitch. This segment emphasizes the playful and dynamic nature of language, showcasing how poetry can encapsulate complex ideas in a concise manner.
"cross-pollinate in weird ways. The other thing with that that I always love talking artists about is the ways that serious artists are conscious of things that are below the register of consciousness ..."
Collecting Place Words
In this segment, Macfarlane discusses his passion for collecting place words and their significance in capturing the essence of landscapes. He explains the importance of precise language in nature writing and how it enriches the reader's experience. This exploration highlights the connection between language and the natural world, emphasizing the beauty of specificity in writing.
"We got to talk about words. We have been. We got to talk about words. No, no, no, no. Now we're really going to talk about words. So tell me about place words. Like how you've collected place words fo..."
The Impact of Language Death
Macfarlane addresses the serious issue of language death and its implications for cultural knowledge. He explains how the extinction of a language leads to the loss of unique perspectives and wisdom embedded within it. This segment serves as a poignant reminder of the fragility of language and the importance of preserving linguistic diversity.
"um uh from the glossery of is a river alive um sump a pit or pool into which waste liquids are drained a cesspit supervoid in astronomy a very large part of the universe containing very little or no k..."
The Revision Process: From Mess to Masterpiece
In this insightful segment, Macfarlane shares his revision process, likening it to pottery. He emphasizes the importance of messy beginnings and the iterative nature of writing. This discussion provides practical advice for writers, encouraging them to embrace the chaos of creation and focus on refining their work over time.
"fascinating, strange, sometimes absurd. Um and I would also go and interview language keepers as it were. What are language keepers? Well, so there as I guess the elders of their communities, especial..."
The Mosaic of Writing
Robert Macfarlane shares his unique approach to writing, emphasizing the importance of non-linear creativity. He advises writers to leave a clear next sentence at the end of each writing session and to embrace the messiness of the writing process. Macfarlane likens his writing style to creating a mosaic, where he builds his books from various set pieces rather than adhering to a strict linear narrative.
"begins which is where you begin to shape the bone shape bone shape or the pot or whatever. And then eventually once you've got that form then you start to do all the ornamenting and so on. But it is m..."
The Reality of Writing Challenges
Macfarlane discusses the challenges of writing, acknowledging the pressures writers face, including financial concerns and deadlines. He emphasizes that while writing can be mentally taxing, it is essential to show up consistently. He humorously notes that it takes years of practice to feel comfortable in the writing process, comparing it to riding a bike without hands.
"P writes. I know Alan Hollinghurst, the English novelist, won the book prize and many other things. He writes perfect linear flow handwritten sentences. He'll write a page a day. He once I once heard ..."
AI's Impact on Writing
In this segment, Macfarlane expresses his skepticism about using AI tools like ChatGPT in writing. He highlights the limitations of AI in capturing the nuances of human creativity and individuality. Macfarlane argues that while AI can assist with basic tasks like spell-checking, it ultimately detracts from the distinctiveness that makes great writing unique.
"guy in a hammer. Um well, it it doesn't still feel like that, but it's we're back to ass on chair. It's like just show up and even if you even if you only get a paragraph that day, your book's a parag..."
Creating Visceral Experiences
Macfarlane delves into the concept of making writing feel visceral, sharing how he aims to evoke physical sensations in readers. He recounts a claustrophobic experience from his book 'Underland,' illustrating how he uses vivid descriptions to make readers feel the tension and fear he experienced. This segment explores the power of writing to affect readers' emotions and bodies.
"like to remove verbs from from sentences. I leaving them technically not sentences but this is um seeing this huge Canadian river for the first time from the sky. Um, my first sight of the river itsel..."
The Power of Claustrophobia in Writing
Continuing the discussion on visceral writing, Macfarlane explains how claustrophobia can evoke strong reactions from readers. He contrasts it with feelings of vertigo, noting that many readers have expressed their discomfort with claustrophobic scenes in his work. This segment highlights the emotional impact of writing and the ability to connect with readers on a physical level.
"until it can do comedy and I thought that was an interesting idea like the hardest thing of all is to make us is to make us laugh but um I I think I think writing broadly does have a lot to fear from ..."
Navigating Personal Experiences in Writing
Macfarlane shares a personal anecdote about his first MRI experience, illustrating the mental struggle of facing claustrophobia. He reflects on the irrational fears that can arise even when one knows they are safe. This segment emphasizes the importance of drawing from personal experiences to create relatable and impactful writing.
"anxiety or panic underland which is the book I wrote about which is highly kind of claustrophobic in many ways although it's also about the immense immensities of the underworld and the ways they open..."
Exploring Language and Culture
In this segment, Macfarlane begins to explore the richness of language from different cultures, starting with Old English. He discusses the concept of kennings and how they enhance the metaphoric quality of language. This exploration sets the stage for a deeper understanding of how language shapes our perception of the world.
"had to stop. I had to jump. I had to jump ahead." I was fascinated by this because being able to vicariously affect your reader's body, Yeah. not their mind, but being able to make them kind of clench..."
The Beauty of Kennings
Macfarlane elaborates on the beauty of kennings in Old English, explaining how they combine two words to create metaphorical expressions. He shares examples like 'whale road' for the sea, illustrating the creativity and depth of language. This segment highlights the importance of metaphor in enriching writing and connecting with readers.
"Because you would have known the rational part of your brain knows this is this is an MRI scanner. like this is not going to collapse and and crush me. It's not going to harm me. It's doing me good. M..."
Cultural Insights Through Language
Continuing his exploration of language, Macfarlane discusses the significance of place names in Gaelic and how they reflect the landscape. He introduces the concept of a 'GPS' in language, where understanding place names can provide insights into geographical features. This segment emphasizes the connection between language, culture, and the natural world.
"to uh to to not play with them. There's a spell I Kingfisher spell I wrote which begins something like flame flicker lightbringer rivers quiver something like this D there. So they're all hyphenated h..."
The Palp and Heft of Language
Macfarlane concludes this segment by discussing the palpable quality of language, referencing the work of Seamus Heaney. He emphasizes the importance of texture and weight in words, illustrating how language can evoke strong feelings and imagery. This segment encapsulates the essence of Macfarlane's philosophy on writing and the power of language.
"landscape with them and locate yourself. Man, it really gives you an x-ray vision into the natural world these words. Yeah. And they go, you know, way way way back. So yeah. Yeah. Um so book bulletive..."
The Balance of Clarity and Mystery in Writing
In this segment, Macfarlane critiques the early 20th-century advice to remove unnecessary words. He argues for a balance between clarity and the richness of language, suggesting that sometimes adding complexity can enhance the reader's engagement and allow for deeper contemplation.
"the bleb of the icicle. H how about English writing? Well, I mean, where to where to start and where to stop? It's the water I swim in. Um, I I think sometimes you want language, English, to be transp..."
Capturing Astonishment in Writing
Macfarlane shares his approach to capturing the essence of astonishment in writing without exaggeration. He discusses the importance of allowing readers to participate in the narrative by leaving gaps for them to fill, thus creating a co-creative experience.
"how do you feel about that? So Walter Peter who is one of the great Victorian he says one of the great Victorian kind of essaists uh he said burn with a hard and gemlike flame. I want to burn with a h..."
The Role of Mystery in Effective Writing
This segment explores the significance of mystery in writing. Macfarlane argues that good writing should provoke thought and contemplation, allowing readers to engage with the text on a deeper level. He emphasizes that clarity should not come at the expense of leaving space for interpretation.
"and I to to writers um and to myself I you know hyperbole is your enemy. um straining too hard is your is your enemy. I mean that that way purple pros lies I think. So so finding exactly the the urge ..."
The Gripe About 'Brilliant'
In a light-hearted conclusion, Macfarlane and Perell discuss the overuse of the word 'brilliant' in British English. Macfarlane humorously critiques its application in mundane contexts, highlighting cultural differences in language use and expression.
"absolutely absolutely and even even when one is is working with a single sentence so I think there's a sentence in is a river alive in English there is no verb to river but what could be more of a ver..."