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The Next Era of Consumer Social with Sarah Tavel and Ben Rubin
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Sarah Tavel (@sarahtavel), partner at Benchmark, and Ben Rubin (@benrbn), founder of Houseparty and Meerkat, join Erik on this episode. They discuss: - Where the white space is in social and the possibilities for vertical-specific social networks. - Why Facebook looks to young people today the way Yahoo! looked to Sarah’s generation. - What participatory social looks like and how to solve the problem of presence. - Their ideas for new social networks. - What Twitter could have been. - How social interacts with gaming, audio, dating, and other spaces. Thanks for listening — if you like what you hear, please review us on your favorite podcast platform. Check us out on the web at villageglobal.vc or get in touch with us on Twitter @villageglobal. Venture Stories is brought to you by Village Global and is hosted by co-founder and partner, Erik Torenberg. Grace Chen is our audio engineer and the show is produced by Brett Bolkowy.
Segments Timeline
Introducing the Guests
Erik Torenberg introduces Sarah Tavel and Ben Rubin, discussing their backgrounds and expertise in consumer social. Sarah, a partner at Benchmark, and Ben, founder of Houseparty and Meerkat, share their insights on the evolving landscape of social networks.
"hey everybody it's Eric torberg co-founder partner of Village Global a network driven Venture firm and this is vure stories a podcast covering topics relating to Tech and business with World leading e..."
The Call for Participatory Social
Sarah Tavel discusses her vision for a participatory era of social media, emphasizing the need for platforms that encourage active user engagement rather than passive consumption. She reflects on the vulnerabilities of current social giants like Facebook and the potential for new, vertical-specific networks.
"know well have spent a lot of time in and have been thinking uh a lot about uh consumer social and and you recently wrote a post uh Sarah calling for a participatory social so why don't you uh unpack ..."
The Shift from Passive to Active Engagement
Sarah elaborates on the shift from passive social media experiences to participatory ones, highlighting how platforms like Discord and gaming environments foster active user involvement. She argues that the next era of social will be defined by shared interests and collaborative experiences.
"now I mean I don't know about either of you like do do either of you go to Facebook regularly not much I don't have Facebook since 2016 yeah and I've got to imagine I don't know if you guys have had t..."
Ben's Perspective on Social Media Dynamics
Ben Rubin shares his thoughts on how major social platforms have historically capitalized on user insecurities. He discusses the importance of vulnerability and openness in participatory social experiences, contrasting it with the comfort-seeking nature of current social media feeds.
"what makes people happy and feel satisfied with their online experiences when they actually participate actively in whatever thing that they're looking at or or using and and I think you see that with..."
Generational Shifts in Social Media Usage
Ben explores generational differences in social media engagement, comparing Millennials' focus on influence and status with Gen Z's emphasis on personal identity and community. He suggests that the next wave of social networks will cater to these evolving needs.
"to create a business on top of it is actually by the best way to do it is by appealing to fear and to things that make us uh insecure and when you're talking about gamifying a an algor like a algorith..."
The Rise of Customization in Social Interactions
Ben discusses how Gen Z's desire for unique identities and experiences is shaping social media trends. He notes the shift towards bespoke interactions and the potential for new platforms that reflect these values, moving away from traditional influencer dynamics.
"follow the money of how you make money off the feeds then you realize this is where the in incentive alignment is different between what we actually want the other reaction I have to your comment abou..."
Gaming as a New Social Frontier
Sarah and Ben delve into the intersection of gaming and social media, highlighting how online gaming communities provide a sense of autonomy and belonging for younger generations. They discuss the implications of this trend for future social network development.
"feel like you're gaining things and you're gaining some sort of power and you have a status of them sort it's something that is a reaction to what the generation so like if you want to map forward you..."
Exploring New Community Building Opportunities
Sarah emphasizes the need for innovative community-building platforms that go beyond existing social media models. She reflects on the importance of creating spaces that foster genuine connections and participation, rather than merely replicating traditional social structures.
"people that reacting to to the centralization of influence that the millennial have they're reacting to this so there's going to be the opposite direction plus they have the skills of paying online of..."
The Role of Gaming in Social Development
Ben discusses how gaming environments are becoming essential for social interaction among youth, providing a safe space for exploration and creativity. He highlights the potential for gaming to influence social behaviors and community dynamics.
"interesting another thing building on this last point you mentioned what Facebook did was digitize offline relationships and what some I'm seeing a lot of like inperson networks that are trying to inp..."
The Future of Social Media and VR
The conversation shifts to the future of social media in relation to virtual reality. Sarah and Ben speculate on the potential of VR to create immersive social experiences, while acknowledging the current limitations of the technology.
"there's not enough meat there to get enough people to change their behavior and move to a different place where you have like you just have this gravitational pull to Facebook and Instagram and YouTub..."
Navigating the Transition in Social Media
Sarah and Ben discuss the ongoing transition in social media, emphasizing the importance of innovation and adaptation. They reflect on historical trends and the need for new ideas to emerge as the landscape evolves.
"spend but so that that feels like what you're starting to see is more of the social DNA splice into the gaming DNA but there still hasn't been something that has created enough of that it it ended up ..."
The Impact of Helicopter Parenting on Social Behavior
The discussion touches on how helicopter parenting influences children's social interactions and autonomy. Sarah and Ben explore the implications for future generations and the potential for new social platforms to address these challenges.
"I definitely think that the fact that I spent time wandering as a kid and like it was okay to just wander in the straight and like go do things uh is something that I'm grateful for cuz you kind of it..."
Conclusion and Future Outlook
In closing, Sarah and Ben summarize their insights on the future of consumer social networks. They emphasize the need for platforms that prioritize participation, community, and genuine connections as the landscape continues to evolve.
"have it you get a helicopter so the reaction to this is like where can I find Outlet to build my own reality so I think it's pretty yeah but Ready Player one then only how many generations away I mean..."
The Graveyard of Social Media Ideas
Rubin reflects on the 'graveyard' of failed social media ideas during transitional periods. He emphasizes the importance of these failures as stepping stones for future innovations. The conversation explores how past attempts at social platforms can inform the development of new, more effective solutions in the evolving landscape of social media.
"muscles forward and I think you see it with magic lip I think you see it with other companies when you're like this is cool but and and it's Paving the way but it's also like you think about uh Palm y..."
The Future of Live Video
The segment delves into the potential for live video platforms, drawing from Rubin's experiences with Meerkat and Houseparty. He outlines the challenges of creating a successful live video experience, emphasizing the need for shared availability among users and a clear code of conduct to facilitate meaningful interactions.
"important graveyard because it's also a stepping Sun for for where we're headed you know yeah the I I want to talk about some other spaces that have been well treaded um so one is and you're the World..."
Navigating Adult Friendships Online
Rubin discusses the complexities of maintaining friendships in adulthood, particularly in the context of online interactions. He contrasts the shared availability of high school friendships with the asynchronous nature of adult relationships, highlighting the challenges of engaging with friends across different social circles.
"right the other thing that I think is often uh it's not that obvious is that shared code of conduct uh which in high schools it's pretty clear who or who's friend with whom who you are allowed to sit ..."
Reimagining Social Platforms
The conversation explores innovative ideas for social platforms that could enhance user engagement. Rubin suggests a model where users can jump between different social experiences, akin to a living room setting, allowing for more organic interactions with friends while consuming media.
"right but it doesn't create anyone hardship if you don't show up or you show up L like you know what I mean when you bring it into a platform and there's a conversation happening and people are aware ..."
The Role of Presence in Social Media
Rubin emphasizes the importance of presence in social media interactions, suggesting that platforms should facilitate synchronous experiences. He draws parallels with gaming and discusses how meaningful connections can be fostered through shared experiences, ultimately enhancing user engagement.
"with your friends and like you know the book club and uh and your other friends who are like more like say like cheeky and doing some stupid or drinking you jump there but you're like that's your Netf..."
The Asynchronous vs. Synchronous Debate
The segment addresses the ongoing debate between asynchronous and synchronous interactions in social media. Rubin and Tavel discuss the potential for synchronous experiences to become more meaningful, while acknowledging the dominance of asynchronous communication in today's digital landscape.
"exist and that there is there is it could solve a lot of our the problems that we encounter that we're kind of realize we're just like limited to the high schoolers because they just have those two th..."
The Future of Meaningful Connections
Rubin reflects on the future of social media and the importance of fostering meaningful connections. He argues that as technology evolves, there will be a greater emphasis on creativity and presence, suggesting that these elements will define the next era of social interactions.
"Joy where I personally find the most joy and creativity is the moments in which I'm open and present with the people I care about and I have meaningful relationship and meaningful experiences with the..."
Generation Z and the Need for Belonging
The discussion concludes with a focus on Generation Z and their deep need for belonging in social media. Rubin highlights the importance of identity and connection in this generation's online experiences, suggesting that platforms must evolve to meet these emotional needs.
"know it's like well and I'm not sure what you mean by automate like what I think about is I mean even just taking the proxy of P on and the percentage of the video time that gets watched live versus a..."
The Evolution of Social Media
Tavel discusses the evolution of social media platforms, noting that while TikTok offers viral content, it lacks the meaningful connections that users crave. She suggests that future platforms must focus on fostering genuine relationships and a sense of community.
"to them because in our generation I got 5,000 friends on Facebook and I have those you know that what's our sense of belonging because we reacted to different things so I actually think that I'm I'm a..."
Public vs. Private Expression
The conversation shifts to the dynamics of public and private expression on social media. Tavel and Rubin explore how platforms like Twitter create a culture of communication that can discourage authentic expression due to fear of negative backlash.
"what can feel like random people and the bug of that is that then the follow graph that you end up AC crewing isn't actually something tight to whom you are and there going to be fatigue cuz in the cu..."
The Shift to Private Spaces
Tavel notes a trend towards private social interactions, where users seek authenticity away from the public eye. She discusses how this shift may lead to more meaningful conversations and connections, as users navigate their identities in a less judgmental environment.
"don't even know whether information is right or not like how do I feel happy with what I have I think that's very important thing that people miss that people Miss uh people Miss from from uh our gene..."
Redefining Public Spaces
The discussion continues on how new generations perceive public and private spaces differently. Tavel introduces the concept of platforms that blend public and private interactions, allowing users to share personal experiences while maintaining a sense of community.
"what makes me happy and I think that despite the fact that you have coolness factors and hype factors which we've seen I think for example snap the reason it's so relevant and still relevant I think i..."
The Role of Authenticity
Tavel emphasizes the importance of authenticity in social interactions, suggesting that users are increasingly seeking real connections. She argues that platforms must adapt to this desire for genuine experiences to remain relevant in the evolving social landscape.
"what the product is and I think Tik Tok is just lenses and viewership and lenses and viewership is like going to a club in Cabo it's cool you might some people do it three times a year some people do ..."
Navigating Cancel Culture
Rubin reflects on the impact of cancel culture on public figures and the challenges they face in expressing themselves online. He discusses the balance between public expression and the fear of backlash, highlighting the need for platforms to foster safer environments for dialogue.
"recently I've just been feeling I've been in a mood with Twitter lately where I just feel like the character restriction creates a culture of communication that is that is almost definitionally um and..."
The Future of Social Media
The conversation shifts to the future of social media, with Rubin suggesting that while trends may move towards privacy, the need for public expression will persist. He discusses the potential for new platforms to emerge that cater to evolving user needs for connection and belonging.
"like there just people are waiting for the the outrage culture is so strong that people are waiting for that moment where they can pounce with outrage and cancel culture like there's all those things ..."
Building Enduring Social Companies
Rubin shares insights on what makes social companies enduring, emphasizing the importance of creating sticky products that enhance user engagement. He discusses the balance between personalization and the need for users to feel a sense of loss when leaving a platform.
"it still remains to be seen whether that ends up becoming something that is that that can that can pull enough people in to add to that I think that there's also we perceive public and private in a ce..."
The Hierarchy of Engagement
Rubin introduces his concept of the 'Hierarchy of Engagement,' explaining how social platforms can create value for users by enhancing their experiences. He discusses the importance of accruing benefits and mounting loss to keep users engaged over time.
"I can have your username and like look at this and I find it to be putting aside a conversation about astrology and what value you find it or not uh but we all read books or if we believe in some syst..."
The Illusion of New Social Platforms
Sarah Tavel discusses the ongoing evolution of social platforms and the desire for individuals to gain status within new communities. She highlights the challenges of building a following on established platforms like Twitter and the potential for new social networks to emerge as opportunities for status creation arise.
"different types of uh you know communities and platforms and ways to to gain status and I think they will only be increasing yeah Ian it's a great illusion to the Eugene way like that is I mean I I th..."
Creating Sticky Social Products
Ben Rubin shares his framework for building enduring social companies, emphasizing the importance of creating sticky products that offer accruing benefits and mounting loss. He compares different platforms like Pinterest and Snapchat, illustrating how user engagement can be enhanced through personalization and social connections.
"to come in and and and and let some new generation or new group of people acrw their new status what's the way to think about how to build big enduring social companies is it you either create this Ri..."
Skepticism Towards Voice and Audio Platforms
Ben Rubin expresses his skepticism about the potential of voice and audio platforms, likening them to an awkward middle ground between text and video. He discusses the limitations of audio experiences and the challenges of engaging users in a medium that lacks the immediacy and richness of visual content.
"benefit so the more you use a product the better it gets for you and and mounting loss the more you use a product the more you have to lose by leaving the product and and you know pinterested this wit..."
The Future of Podcasting and Audio Experiences
The conversation shifts to the potential for innovation in podcasting and audio apps. Ben Rubin reflects on the current state of podcasting experiences and the opportunities for creating a more engaging platform, while also voicing his doubts about the sustainability of audio-only experiences.
"have versus a Pinterest is more like a a w over ma type experience um but I think that there's there's so much possibility but you do have to create something that gets you know that has those Dynamic..."
The Role of Avatars and Digital Identity
Sarah Tavel and Ben Rubin explore the concept of avatars and digital self-expression in social networks. They discuss the potential for avatars to provide a judgment-free way of interacting online, while questioning whether this feature can stand alone or needs to be integrated into broader social experiences.
"audio only experience you you you doubt Benchmark making investment in like a Netflix for audio or podcasting I just I struggle I personally I mean you know I'm not the I'm not the only one I Benchmar..."
Missed Opportunities in Social Engagement
The discussion highlights missed opportunities in social platforms like HQ Trivia, focusing on the lack of depth and engagement features that could foster meaningful relationships among users. Ben Rubin emphasizes the importance of creating intimacy and ongoing interactions within social products.
"to do it interesting to think of a a network that is based on podcast but it's like not about just it's just like your chats or interaction with the community are based on what you're listening to so ..."
Reimagining Dating Apps for Fairness
Sarah Tavel shares insights on the dating app landscape, emphasizing the inherent inequalities faced by women. She proposes a reimagined approach to dating that incorporates elements of speed dating and social interaction, aiming to create a more equitable and engaging experience for users.
"female to jump on a house party and I think that when a company comes and say like hey look airpods is like it's much longer presence cuz people just have it in their and people don't need to see each..."
Building Community Through Shared Experiences
The conversation concludes with thoughts on how to create community and intimacy in social products. Sarah Tavel and Ben Rubin discuss the importance of shared experiences and the potential for social platforms to facilitate deeper connections among users.
"what is it is it is is it retention or is it scal HQ trivia HQ trivia is exactly my point my my M macro point about Tik Tok where there is some there's something there but you haven't delivered about ..."
Reimagining Dating Apps
In this segment, the speakers discuss the potential for innovation in dating apps, highlighting the inherent unfairness women face on these platforms. They explore how existing apps like Bumble attempt to shift power dynamics and suggest a revival of speed dating combined with modern technology to create more authentic connections.
"them together and that's like the note whereas like I think Tik Tok has a a lot more range like it's not even it's you know it's not even percussion it's like going into string instruments because you..."
The Future of Speed Dating
The conversation shifts to a novel concept of speed dating integrated with a social media-like experience. The speakers envision a platform where users can engage in timed conversations, allowing for quick assessments of compatibility while reducing the negative aspects of traditional dating apps.
"asymmetric deficiency between like I see how my friends like I'm married but I see how my friend use dating apps and I'm like I'm really curious about it and there's something fundamentally unfair for..."
Addressing Online Dating Challenges
The speakers delve into the emotional toll of online dating, particularly for women, discussing the prevalence of inappropriate messages and the need for a more respectful interaction model. They emphasize the importance of face-to-face interactions to foster genuine connections and reduce negative experiences.
"like interesting Dynamics where I can see people sitting in a dinner and just like oh like two people got like pushes there's like people waiting to talk to them like guys guys guys like I'm having li..."
The Role of Anonymity in Social Networks
This segment explores the complexities of anonymity in social networks. The speakers express skepticism about pure anonymity, arguing that it often leads to negative behaviors. They discuss the need for pseudo-anonymity to encourage positive interactions while maintaining user identity.
"doing and like you would be in a restaurant like what are these people doing and it's like it just like I feel somebody has to do that yeah I love it s put your VC hat on and say why they're terrible ..."
Cultural Differences in Social Networking
The discussion highlights how social networking dynamics differ between Western and Eastern cultures. The speakers note that Eastern users often have multiple profiles for different social circles, which influences their online interactions and the success of social products in those markets.
"way I think that the problem with the location based social network is by the way side note I love zley I regardless of it being Benchmark company uh I an all time alltime alltime uh Oldtimer on the p..."
The Importance of Environment in Product Development
The speakers emphasize the significance of the environment in product development, drawing parallels between cooking and creating user experiences. They discuss how the organization of a product can influence user behavior and engagement, advocating for a holistic approach to design.
"it where here the last people who texted the last 10 people who texted you are your be 10 best friends and so this is like the two Dynamics also there's an entire conversation about why live streaming..."
Innovative Ideas for Consumer Social Networks
In this segment, the speakers brainstorm innovative concepts for consumer social networks, including a platform centered around sharing receipts and spending habits. They discuss how such a network could foster community and conversation around consumer choices and interests.
"attention a lot to this and designer really hates it because it means that we need to look at everything we need we can't look at a feature just like where it is you need to take four steps back all t..."
Facilitating Conversations in Dating
The conversation wraps up with a provocative idea for a new app that facilitates discussions about dating conversations among friends. The speakers highlight the potential for such a platform to enhance communication and support in romantic pursuits while addressing privacy concerns.
"conversation right around consumer consumption that it's like lost and and to Sarah's point about like unbundling like there is a and another thing that I think that should happen is like so many time..."
Privacy Concerns in Social Sharing
As the conversation shifts, Ben Rubin and Sarah Tavel discuss the privacy implications of sharing dating conversations through apps like Hot Shot. They emphasize the importance of obscuring identities to protect users while still allowing for the sharing of experiences. This segment raises critical questions about privacy in social networks and the balance between sharing and safeguarding personal information.
"out there if you're out there you the founder reach out to me I'm GNA help you with that I have to say that triggers me from a privacy perspective too to be like facilitating it's not to put it out th..."
The Screenshot Social Network
Ben Rubin suggests the creation of a social network focused on sharing screenshots, tapping into the common behavior of users who capture and share conversations. This segment discusses the potential for a platform that allows users to engage with each other's experiences while navigating the challenges of privacy and consent in sharing personal interactions.
"Hot Shot well I I'll tell you there's a messaging app isn't it called confide that uh you have to hold your finger on the screen like to see each text bubble I would if your company becomes successful..."
Missed Opportunities for Twitter
In this segment, Sarah Tavel reflects on Twitter's missed opportunities, particularly regarding user engagement and the new user experience. She discusses the challenges of creating a more personalized feed based on user interests and the importance of converting new signups into active users. This analysis highlights the potential for improvement in social media platforms to better serve their audiences.
"time at pest which is people would all the time screenshot recipes or things on websites and just like to be able to uh when see someone's photos upload like upload them under like identify where the ..."
Unbundling and New Business Opportunities
Ben Rubin and Sarah Tavel delve into the concept of unbundling in social media, discussing how new business opportunities arise when existing platforms become too centralized. They explore the cyclical nature of social media trends and the potential for new companies to emerge by addressing the needs of users seeking more personalized and authentic experiences.
"imagine having if I were a PM there yeah and has the interest grab sort of been already taken well no I mean like Pinterest you know there's a lot of companies that Tilt at this opportunity Pinterest ..."
The Evolution of Social Media Identity
The conversation wraps up with insights on how social media has evolved in response to generational shifts. Ben Rubin and Sarah Tavel discuss the desire for individuality and authenticity in social interactions, reflecting on how platforms like Facebook have changed over time. This segment emphasizes the ongoing quest for personal identity in the digital age.
"of ENT much more about schooling I'll you go in a second explain to me the unbundling bundling I think this is great Jim Clark quote but is it basically there's just new business opportunity anytime s..."