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What AI means for your product strategy | Paul Adams (CPO of Intercom)
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Paul Adams is the longtime chief product officer at Intercom, where he leads the product management, product design, data science, and research teams. Before Intercom, Paul was the global head of brand design at Facebook, a senior user researcher at Google, and a product designer at Dyson. He’s also a best-selling author, a podcast host, and a public speaker. In today’s episode, we discuss: • Practical advice on integrating AI into your organization • Tips and tools for learning AI as a PM • Hilarious stories from Google and Facebook • How to build conviction with skeptical coworkers • Lessons learned from pricing at Intercom • How Intercom implemented JTBD — Brought to you by Eppo—Run reliable, impactful experiments: Eppo—Run reliable, impactful experiments: https://www.geteppo.com/ | Hex—Helping teams ask and answer data questions by working together: https://www.hex.tech/lenny | HelpBar by Chameleon—The free in-app universal search solution built for SaaS: https://helpbar.ai/lenny/?utm_source=lennys-podcast&utm_medium=sponsorship&utm_campaign=helpbar-launch-lennys-podcast Find the transcript and references at: https://www.lennyspodcast.com/what-ai-means-for-your-product-strategy-paul-adams-cpo-of-intercom/ Where to find Paul Adams: • X: https://twitter.com/Padday • LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/pauladams/ Where to find Lenny: • Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com • X: https://twitter.com/lennysan • LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/ In this episode, we cover: (00:00) Paul’s background (04:09) Freezing onstage in front of 8,000 people (07:28) Insights from Google+ days (12:31) Learning from failure (13:56) Intercom’s “ship fast, ship early, ship often” principle (15:17) Integrating AI into product strategy (17:31) Making time for AI learning (19:37) AI in new-product development (21:16) Questions to ask about your product (23:33) How Intercom pivoted after the release of ChatGPT (25:13) Intercom’s AI chatbot, Fin (26:45) The early impact of AI adoption at Intercom (28:53) Capabilities of AI (34:27) How to structure teams around AI products (37:57) Why all teams should be involved in AI (39:04) Staying up to date on emerging technology (42:44) Hurdles implementing AI at Intercom (45:52) Building conviction around AI (49:52) Why you shouldn’t fear AI (50:56) Paul’s “before-after” framework (51:54) Pricing lessons from Intercom (54:54) Paul’s “differentiation vs. table stakes” framework (59:22) What “swinging the pendulum” means and examples from Intercom (1:05:21) Paul’s “product market story fit” framework (1:08:23) His take on JTBD (1:11:01) How Intercom uses the “four forces” framework (1:12:54) Lightning round Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email podcast@lennyrachitsky.com. Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed.
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The AI Meteor: Transforming Society
Paul Adams emphasizes the urgent need for organizations to explore AI, likening its impact to a meteor that will radically transform society. He discusses the importance of understanding the core premise of a product and evaluating how AI can enhance or replace its functions, urging product managers to map their offerings against AI capabilities.
"this is a like meteor coming towards you this is going to radically transform society and I think if people don't explore AI properly it will leave them behind I'd start with the thing your product do..."
Paul Adams: A Journey Through Tech
In this segment, Paul Adams introduces himself as the Chief Product Officer at Intercom, sharing his extensive background in tech, including roles at Facebook, Google, and Dyson. He reflects on his experiences with failure, including a memorable presentation where he froze on stage, and the lessons learned from those moments.
"to do today my guest is Paul Adams Paul is Chief product officer at intercom a role that he's held for over 10 years prior to this role he was Global head of brand design at Facebook a user researcher..."
The Pressure of Public Speaking
Paul recounts a pivotal moment during a keynote at Cannes where he froze on stage, illustrating the intense pressure of public speaking. He shares how he managed to recover and the unexpected fame that followed, highlighting the resilience required in high-stakes situations.
"our sponsors this episode is brought to you by EPO EPO is a Next Generation AB testing and feature management platform built by a Lums of airb B and snowflake for modern growth teams companies like tw..."
Lessons from Google and Facebook
Reflecting on his time at Google and Facebook, Paul discusses the contrasting environments of both companies. He shares insights into the fear-driven motivations behind failed social projects at Google and the more innovative, user-focused approach at Facebook, emphasizing the importance of creating products that genuinely serve user needs.
"other commercial tool does when I was at Airbnb one of the things that I loved most was our experimentation platform where I could set up experiments easily troubleshoot issues and analyze performance..."
Navigating Failure in Product Development
Paul discusses the significance of failure in product development, sharing personal anecdotes from his career. He emphasizes that experiencing setbacks is crucial for growth and innovation, advocating for a culture that embraces risk and encourages learning from mistakes.
"that's get eo.com Lenny this episode is brought to you by hex if you're a data person you probably have to jump between different tools to run queries build visualizations write Python and send around..."
Designing Products vs. Designing Companies
In this segment, Paul reflects on a pivotal conversation with Intercom co-founder Owen, who encouraged him to join the company to help design not just products, but the company itself. This philosophy underscores the importance of creating an environment that fosters experimentation and embraces failure as part of the innovation process.
"dashboards that anyone can use join the hundreds of data teams like notion alltrails Loom mix panel and algolia using hex every day to make their work more impactful sign up today at [Music] Lenny to ..."
The Value of Big Bets in Product Strategy
Paul shares his belief in making big bets in product strategy, arguing that high-risk, high-reward initiatives drive innovation. He contrasts this with incremental changes, emphasizing that significant risks often lead to valuable lessons and breakthroughs in product development.
"story of giving a keynote at can can you share what happened there you know some some things that happen in work are very memorable at the time and they don't really scar you this goes in the book it ..."
Embracing Failure as a Product Leader
Paul Adams discusses the importance of embracing failure in product management. He reflects on his experiences at Google and Intercom, emphasizing that failure can lead to valuable lessons and innovation. He advocates for a culture that accepts risk and encourages experimentation, which is crucial for growth in product development.
"spies you know I was quarantined I told them I was leaving uh they uh you know forensically analyzed my laptop like all sorts of stuff like that so it was pretty intense um you know looking back I I c..."
The 'Ship Fast' Principle
Adams introduces Intercom's principle of 'ship fast, ship early, ship often.' He explains how this approach fosters a culture of learning from mistakes and adapting quickly. By prioritizing speed over perfection, teams can innovate more effectively, although it creates a tension between quality and rapid iteration.
"um I personally failed so many times you know like there are two stories and the Google one is like long deep deep tentacles like there are two there two stories I I failed a ton of times like at inte..."
Navigating the Tension of Quality and Speed
In this segment, Paul Adams addresses the challenges of maintaining high standards while encouraging rapid product development. He highlights the constant struggle between delivering quality products and the need to iterate quickly, a common dilemma faced by product teams.
"excited about like big big bets and if you make big bets you're going to get a lot of it wrong so a lot of the principles that we built here at intercom or building software like we have a principle c..."
The AI Revolution: A Paradigm Shift
Adams shares his insights on the transformative impact of AI on product strategy. He compares the current AI wave to previous technological shifts, emphasizing the urgency for product leaders to adapt. He categorizes people’s reactions to AI into two camps: those who see it as a revolutionary force and skeptics who view it as hype.
"and going all in I know there's been a huge shift at intercom to move towards Ai and embrace Ai and so maybe just to start broadly I'm curious just what are some your broader insights or surprises so ..."
Understanding AI's Potential
In this segment, Paul discusses the potential of AI to reshape industries, particularly customer service. He reflects on the rapid advancements in AI technology and the need for product managers to stay informed and engaged with these developments to avoid being left behind.
"itself as a kind of soci you know technology shift the way it shap shape Society so like I'm all in I'm like I've gone over the hill or whatever I'm over the other side and so there's people in that c..."
Finding Time for AI Learning
Adams offers practical advice for product managers struggling to find time to learn about AI. He emphasizes the importance of prioritizing AI education and suggests setting aside dedicated time for reading and experimentation to keep pace with the evolving landscape.
"the other in the other camp like this is going to radically transform society and it it kind of like blows my mind even seeing new types of things that come out like chat GPT Vision just came out rece..."
Experimenting with AI Tools
Paul shares his personal experiences experimenting with AI tools like ChatGPT. He encourages product managers to actively engage with AI technologies, highlighting the importance of hands-on experience in understanding their capabilities and potential applications.
"believe in working crazy hours you know I don't know what what hours I work I don't know 50 hours a week maybe I think beyond that you start to make bad decisions and things like that get tired I need..."
Strategic AI Integration
In this segment, Adams discusses the strategic considerations for integrating AI into product development. He stresses the need for product leaders to assess how AI can enhance their offerings and the importance of aligning AI capabilities with core product functions.
"set aside the time or it'll pass you by it does remind me of the mobile the kind of mobile wave about a decade ago again I was like Google at the time I was working on the mobile team so I guess it wa..."
Mapping AI Capabilities to Product Needs
Paul elaborates on the process of mapping AI capabilities to product needs. He encourages product teams to evaluate how AI can solve specific problems and enhance user experiences, emphasizing that understanding the core value of their product is essential for effective AI integration.
"to spend your time yeah it's harder for sure it's harder because yeah a lot of the tech is invisible you know like a lot of the things like we we have a machine learning team we've had on here for a l..."
Before and After: The AI Moment
Adams reflects on the transformative moment for Intercom following the launch of ChatGPT. He describes how the company re-evaluated its strategy and embraced AI, leading to significant changes in their product development approach.
"head space that I think people need to be in can you unpack that further what do you what what does that look like to uh really think deeply about whether your your product is in the way of the meteor..."
Introducing Finn: Intercom's AI Chatbot
In this segment, Paul introduces Finn, Intercom's AI chatbot designed to revolutionize customer support. He explains how Finn serves as the first line of defense for customer inquiries, fundamentally changing the way businesses interact with their customers.
"least not yet and the types of things you you kind need to map like what your product does against what AI can do and like AI can do a lot like uh it can write uh I'll try I give give you like a list ..."
The Before-After Moment
Paul Adams discusses a pivotal moment at Intercom when they recognized the transformative potential of AI. He describes how the team, led by their head of machine learning, Fergo, decided to overhaul their strategy in response to the emergence of AI technologies, marking a clear 'before' and 'after' in their approach to product development.
"etched in our head you know we we have like fergo who who's our head of machine learning and fergo just turns around that day and he's like okay I think he tweeted something actually he had a tweet th..."
Introducing Finn: The AI Chatbot
In this segment, Paul introduces Finn, Intercom's AI chatbot designed to revolutionize customer support. He explains how Finn serves as the first line of defense for customer inquiries, fundamentally changing the customer service landscape by utilizing AI to handle questions that were traditionally managed by human agents.
"said okay why do people use intercom you know intercom is a customer support a customer support product and then very soon after that Sam Alman who's the you know found of head of open AI said hey one..."
Transforming Customer Support with AI
Paul elaborates on the impact of AI adoption at Intercom, highlighting the challenges of organizational change within customer support teams. He discusses the need for new roles, such as conversation designers, and how Finn not only answers questions but also assists support reps, showcasing the dual role of AI in enhancing human capabilities.
"and maybe they were a little bit slow but it's so early in this Tech cycle that I think they're they're fine um so you know yeah we we you just have to we did was hard but we had to do it can you shar..."
Measuring AI Success
Paul reflects on the early stages of AI integration at Intercom and the metrics for success. He notes the initial hype surrounding AI and the skepticism from customer support professionals regarding its effectiveness compared to human agents, while also sharing examples of customers who have successfully utilized Finn to handle a significant portion of their inquiries.
"questions by itself I think you're one of the few companies that has pivoted fully into Ai and I think there's a lot of lessons here about how team structures might change product strategy PRI ities t..."
Mind-Blowing AI Capabilities
In this segment, Paul shares his astonishment at the capabilities of AI, particularly in relation to ChatGPT. He discusses how AI can now perform tasks that previously required extensive human orchestration, such as answering customer queries and even writing code, prompting a reevaluation of roles within tech teams.
"like this kind of you know all I think all fast growing startups you know if you think of intercom as or like AI intercom as I guess a new startup even though we're 900 people you know they kind of gr..."
AI's Impact on Radiology and Beyond
Paul discusses the implications of AI in fields like radiology, where AI can analyze X-rays more effectively than trained professionals. He explores the potential for AI to transform job roles and improve efficiency in healthcare, while also raising ethical questions about the future of such technologies.
"that was like just oh I can answer questions but then you're like it can reason there's actually like a debate about whether is this reasoning or deduction or you know but it can like work things out ..."
The Future of AI and Human Interaction
Paul delves into the future possibilities of AI, including its ability to replicate human voices and personas. He reflects on the implications of this technology for personal interactions and the potential for AI to create digital representations of individuals, raising philosophical questions about identity and existence.
"like it's just like I don't how does it do how did it do that you know this is one I'm actually repeating most people these days um here in Ireland if you want to be a radiologist you know so like stu..."
Real-Time Translation and AI Integration
In this segment, Paul discusses advancements in AI that enable real-time translation and dubbing, allowing for seamless communication across language barriers. He shares insights into how Intercom is leveraging these technologies to enhance user experiences in their products.
"like there's an afterlife you hey you know like your your parent dies and you're you can still talk to them and like that could be the weirdest thing maybe it's not good for people I don't know but th..."
Building a Strong AI Team
Paul emphasizes the importance of having skilled machine learning engineers to successfully integrate AI into product strategies. He discusses the growth of Intercom's ML team and the need for collaboration between product and engineering teams to effectively utilize AI technologies.
"native Spanish speaker and couldn't speak English you and I could still have this podcast you know it's been your your voice will be translated in Spanish in real time for me it's like again mind-blow..."
Avoiding the 'Bolt-On' Approach
Paul warns against treating AI as an add-on feature within product development. He draws parallels to the early days of mobile technology, advocating for a holistic integration of AI across teams to ensure that all members are equipped to leverage its capabilities effectively.
"other projects are more front-end like the inbox stuff I mentioned earlier where you know we have Finn and Finn is kind of working we've built the underlying technology now it's a question of like you..."
Avoiding the 'Bolted-On' Approach
In this segment, Paul warns against treating AI as an add-on feature within product teams. He draws parallels to the early days of mobile development, advocating for a holistic integration of AI across all teams rather than isolating it within a specialized group. This approach fosters a culture of learning and collaboration around AI technologies.
"as bolted on you know I think some people are still in that camp um like again I'll go back to the mobile thing just it's there's just so so so many direct parallels with it like I said earlier at Goo..."
The Value of Generalists in AI
Paul shares his belief in the importance of generalists within product teams, especially when it comes to AI integration. He argues that having team members who can adapt and learn new skills, such as designing AI interfaces, is crucial for fostering innovation and ensuring that AI capabilities are effectively utilized across the organization.
"you know we're still early so like um what we're trying not to do is have like the the kind of like AI inbox team who and they're the only people who work on AI features in the inbox I think it's much..."
Staying Updated on AI Trends
Paul discusses the rapid evolution of AI and the necessity for professionals to stay informed. He shares his personal strategies for keeping up with AI developments, including following thought leaders on Twitter and reading various blogs and newsletters. This proactive approach helps him and his team remain competitive and informed in a fast-paced industry.
"a little bit of living in the future where a lot of companies are going to get to once they realize oh we really need to get big ha or they're already working on it I'm curious if there's other maybe ..."
Exploring AI Tools and Applications
In this segment, Paul highlights various AI tools and applications that he finds useful, such as Google Bard and Rewind. He emphasizes the importance of experimenting with different technologies to understand their capabilities and limitations, encouraging a hands-on approach to learning about AI.
"see a lot more so I do that and I kind of do it deliberately to try and generate more stuff I'll search Twitter as well because those are cool stuff there there's some newsletters as well and some peo..."
Navigating Organizational Challenges with AI
Paul reflects on the challenges faced when integrating AI into Intercom's strategy, particularly the diverse opinions within the organization. He discusses the importance of leadership buy-in and the need to navigate ambiguity while fostering a culture of conviction around AI initiatives.
"in that type of thing this episode is brought to you by help bar by chameleon the free inapp Universal search solution built for SAS your help content lives outside your app and is scattered in many p..."
Building Conviction Around AI
In this segment, Paul shares strategies for building conviction among team members regarding AI's potential. He emphasizes the importance of demonstrating successful AI applications to alleviate skepticism and foster a shared vision for the future of AI within the company.
"company intercom is full of diverse opinions about things you know and I think with AI you know I'm like I'm all in I'm like talking about I'm all in like I'm leaning forward the meteor is coming like..."
The Future of AI in Product Strategy
Paul discusses the potential future implications of AI on product strategy, referencing the 'horizons framework' to illustrate how current initiatives may become irrelevant as technology evolves. He stresses the need for adaptability and foresight in product planning to stay ahead of industry changes.
"some people because they don't have that context or they disagree with it you know we have a lot of debate here about the future you know fergo who mentioned earlier gave myself and a few other people..."
AI's Impact on Reporting and Project Management
Paul explores how AI could transform industries like reporting and project management. He speculates on the future of tools like Tableau and the potential for AI to streamline processes, emphasizing the need for companies to rethink their strategies in light of these advancements.
"for sure that's true yeah I showing people is definitely like the easiest way I I think yes so customer support is definitely that I you know like I said Sam like number one customer support uh so you..."
Embracing AI Without Fear
In this concluding segment, Paul encourages teams to embrace AI rather than fear it. He addresses common concerns about job displacement and emphasizes that AI can enhance roles rather than eliminate them, advocating for a balanced perspective on the technology's impact on the workforce.
"strategy of like okay how do we actually do that with AI yeah and it's very hard to you know if you're I don't know if the reporting thing would play out that way but you know if you're like a a table..."
The Before-After Framework
Paul introduces the 'before-after' framework, illustrating its application in product development and rebranding. He emphasizes the importance of customer feedback during transitions and the need for continuous learning to assess the effectiveness of changes made. This framework serves as a guide for product teams to evaluate their strategies and ensure alignment with customer needs.
"okay I want to chat about Frameworks you have a lot of interesting Frameworks that you've put out there so maybe we do kind of a rapid fire through a number of Frameworks that you've worked with and f..."
Pricing Lessons from Intercom
Paul discusses the complexities of pricing strategies at Intercom, sharing insights on aligning price with perceived value. He reflects on past mistakes, including the pitfalls of overcomplicating pricing models with too many tiers and add-ons. This segment provides valuable lessons for product managers on the importance of simplicity and clarity in pricing to enhance customer understanding and satisfaction.
"principle called um align price to value by the way I like I think pricing is incredibly difficult uh a lot of the a lot of the design team who work on pricing here you know I say to them like it's on..."
Differentiation vs. Table Stakes
In this segment, Paul explains the concept of differentiation versus table stakes in product development. He highlights the need for a balance between innovative features that attract customers and the essential functionalities that are expected in the market. Paul shares his experiences at Intercom, illustrating how focusing too much on differentiation can lead to neglecting fundamental features that customers require.
"keep it simple reject like fight so hard to not to like resist the temptation to add extra ways in which you price amazing uh I didn't think about going into this topic but I'm glad that we touched on..."
Swinging the Pendulum: Finding Balance
Paul elaborates on the 'swinging the pendulum' concept, discussing the tendency to overcorrect in product strategy. He shares anecdotes from Intercom's journey, emphasizing the importance of maintaining a balance between differentiation and table stakes. This segment serves as a cautionary tale for product teams to avoid extreme shifts in strategy and to remain adaptable to changing market needs.
"has swung 7030 in both dire at times the last piece about it is I think it's really powerful to like look at a road map or look at a proposed road map and ask yourself which of these things do things ..."
The Hiring Dilemma
Paul Adams discusses the challenges of hiring experts when scaling Intercom. He reflects on the pitfalls of overcorrecting by bringing in specialists from larger companies, which sometimes led to a clash with Intercom's unique culture. This segment highlights the importance of balancing generalists and specialists to foster adaptability in a fluid work environment.
"hire some experts like you know if we're going to go up Market we need up Market people have done it before so you know that was like undesirable State fix it by hiring people who've done it before le..."
Navigating the Pendulum of Change
In this segment, Paul shares insights on the importance of not swinging too far in either direction when implementing new strategies, particularly with AI. He emphasizes the need for a balanced approach, drawing from his experiences at Google and Facebook, where extremes in decision-making could hinder progress.
"drown really struggle maybe the middle of this pendulum kind of Landing in the middle is let's hire someone who has done a bit of it uh and have a bit of specialism not much but enough to try and figu..."
Crossing Boundaries for Innovation
Paul reflects on the necessity of pushing boundaries to innovate effectively. He recounts experiences at Google where excessive caution around privacy stifled product development, contrasting it with Facebook's more aggressive approach. This segment underscores the importance of understanding limits and the value of learning from mistakes in product strategy.
"people about this before sometimes the conclusion of the conversation is something like you it's the only way to do it like you actually can't do it a different way and and so maybe the question is re..."
Understanding Product-Market Story Fit
Paul introduces the concept of 'product-market story fit,' explaining that having a great product in a good market isn't enough if the story isn't compelling. He discusses how effective storytelling can make or break a product's success, using examples from his career to illustrate the significance of clear communication in product marketing.
"stuff you you know you don't really have a choice you got to kind of cross the boundary feel the pain be humble enough to realize you didn't get it right and you know kind of go again or whatever the ..."
The Power of Storytelling in Product Success
In this segment, Paul elaborates on the critical role of storytelling in product management. He shares anecdotes about how convoluted explanations can lead to product failures, emphasizing that a clear and engaging narrative is essential for capturing customer attention and driving adoption.
"problem and the product is the solution to that you it's the what if that's the the markets the who the products the what and I just I know in my career again so a bunch of products that were built th..."
Jobs to Be Done Framework Insights
Paul discusses the 'Jobs to Be Done' framework, sharing his experiences with it at Intercom. He highlights its effectiveness in centering product development around customer needs and energy, while also critiquing the academic debates surrounding its nuances. This segment emphasizes the importance of focusing on practical applications over theoretical discussions.
"story they this they got the story wrong and so again I think all product people whether your designer product manager people in research data science need to think about the story all the time work a..."
The Four Forces Framework
Paul introduces the 'Four Forces' framework, which helps understand customer decision-making when switching products. He shares a personal story about how this framework was used to persuade him to join Intercom, illustrating its practical application in addressing customer anxieties and motivations.
"getting distracted basing it in research like good solid research informed Insight that told us like the thing people were trying to do like what is the thing people are trying to do again energy do t..."
Simplicity in Product Development
In this segment, Paul emphasizes the importance of simplicity in product development and decision-making. He argues that while frameworks and theories can be fascinating, the ultimate goal should be to create meaningful products that improve users' lives. This segment reinforces the idea that clarity and focus are key to successful product management.
"good at um helping understand why people make decisions I love that a lot of your advice just continues to come back to keep it simple cut away anything that isn't necessary and uh I find the same exa..."
Lightning Round: Recommendations and Insights
Paul participates in a lightning round, sharing his favorite books, recent shows, and interview questions. He highlights the importance of continuous learning and the value of practical insights in shaping product strategy. This segment provides a light-hearted conclusion to the discussion, showcasing Paul's personality and approach to product management.
"like that about it I really like that about it what is a favorite interview question you like to ask candidates yeah I'll give I'll give you a slightly different answer I already have set in few quest..."
Life Lessons from a Monitor
Paul discusses his life motto, 'only work on what matters most,' which he keeps posted on his monitor. He emphasizes the importance of focusing on what truly matters and not worrying about things beyond one's control, drawing from insights in 'The 7 Habits of Highly Effective People.'
"don't know I don't know if it's real it kind of looked like not a real product when they launched it but I think it's real well and TI he TOS into the um what's okay and not okay and with and you know..."
The Value of Kindness
Reflecting on lessons from his parents, Paul emphasizes the importance of being nice to people. He shares how understanding others' struggles can lead to more compassionate interactions and highlights the significance of kindness in professional settings.
"Lessons Learned I sent a lot of dumb emails in my past you know like red energy oh my God why are they thinking you know like you wake up in Dublin to a San Francisco email you're like oh God you know..."
Irish Culinary Delights
Paul shares his thoughts on Irish food, recommending Guinness as a must-try for visitors to Ireland. He explains why Guinness tastes better in Ireland and highlights the exceptional quality of local fish, contrasting it with the reputation of Irish cuisine abroad.
"think I learned first from um Seven Habits of Highly Effective People you read that yeah just think about the focus the circle that you have things you can control and then there's like the circle of ..."
Engaging with Paul Adams
Paul invites listeners to connect with him online, sharing his handle 'padday' across platforms. He expresses his openness to discussions, especially with those who challenge his views on AI, emphasizing the importance of diverse perspectives in learning.
"about this that works in Guinness one of my friends does a lot of work in Guinness I think the boat carry the Guinness goes down through the Panama Canal back up to San Francisco so you're you're like..."