All Segments
Benchmarks are bogus and measurements are meaningless, with Brian Balfour of Reforge
71 segments available
Are benchmarks bogus? Is measurement meaningless? In this edition of Retention Masterclass, Peggy Anne Salz and John Koetsier chat with Brian Balfour about the perils of benchmarks and measurement. Brian was the VP of Growth at Hubspot, which now has almost 80,000 customers. He’s been a founder and an entrepreneur in residence. He’s also the founder and CEO of Reforge, maybe the best place on the planet for the best marketers to learn how to be even better. We chat about: - retention - benchmarks - measurement - why retention is an output - whether you can engineer in retention or not - some of the best examples of retention he's seen - keeping marginal audiences you acquired because of COVID-19
Segments Timeline
Are Benchmarks Bogus?
In this opening segment, John and Peggy introduce the topic of benchmarks and measurement in marketing. They discuss the common reliance on benchmarks and how they can be misleading, emphasizing that benchmarks are merely averages and questioning the value of striving for average performance.
"our benchmarks bogus is measurement meaningless ho and welcome to retention master class my name is john kassir and I'm Peggy Ann thoughts and of course one of your co-hosts for today's show most mark..."
Are Benchmarks Bogus?
In this opening segment, John and Peggy introduce the topic of benchmarks and measurement in marketing. They discuss the common reliance on benchmarks and how they can be misleading, emphasizing that benchmarks are merely averages and questioning the value of striving for average performance. This sets the stage for a deeper exploration of retention metrics and their implications.
"our benchmarks bogus is measurement meaningless ho and welcome to retention master class my name is john kassir and I'm Peggy Ann thoughts and of course one of your co-hosts for today's show most mark..."
Introducing Brian Balfour
The hosts welcome Brian Balfour, VP of Growth at HubSpot and CEO of Reforge, highlighting his impressive background and the significance of Reforge as a premier learning platform for marketers. Brian's insights into retention and growth strategies are anticipated as they delve into the core themes of the episode.
"and we're super pumped to bring you an all-star today he's a VP of growth at HubSpot and of course everybody knows about HubSpot which is absolutely massive in the growth curve there has been incredib..."
Introducing Brian Balfour
The hosts welcome Brian Balfour, VP of Growth at HubSpot and founder of Reforge. They highlight his impressive background and the significance of Reforge as a premier learning platform for marketers. Brian's insights on retention and its impact on category leadership are teased.
"and we're super pumped to bring you an all-star today he's a VP of growth at HubSpot and of course everybody knows about HubSpot which is absolutely massive in the growth curve there has been incredib..."
Retention as a Growth Engine
Brian discusses the critical role of retention in determining category leaders across various industries. He explains how retention is not just a metric but a foundational element that influences acquisition and monetization strategies. This segment emphasizes the interconnectedness of growth components and the importance of understanding retention's impact on overall business success.
"retention determines category leaders you talk about that a little bit yeah so this was part of the research we did as part of a retention engagement course for reforge and trying to establish like wh..."
Retention as a Growth Engine
Brian discusses the critical role of retention in determining category leaders across various industries. He explains how retention, acquisition, and monetization are interconnected, forming a cohesive growth system. Understanding these relationships is essential for effective marketing strategies.
"retention determines category leaders you talk about that a little bit yeah so this was part of the research we did as part of a retention engagement course for reforge and trying to establish like wh..."
The Interplay of Retention and Acquisition
In this segment, Brian elaborates on how increased retention can enhance acquisition efforts. He uses Dropbox as an example, illustrating how long-term users are more likely to invite others, thereby boosting virality. This discussion highlights the symbiotic relationship between retention and acquisition strategies in driving growth.
"kind of the center of the growth engine so if you think about growth it's a system of really three parts acquisition retention and monetization and those three don't work in silos they work all togeth..."
The Impact of Retention on Acquisition
In this segment, Brian elaborates on how increased retention positively influences acquisition strategies. He uses Dropbox as an example, illustrating how long-term users are more likely to invite others, thereby enhancing virality and user growth. This connection between retention and acquisition is crucial for marketers.
"part of the system and so you need to kind of understand all these relationships well it just so happens that retention is the thing that kind of moves everything else right so our attention moves acq..."
Targeting the Right Audience
Brian emphasizes the importance of clearly defining target audiences in marketing. He shares insights from HubSpot's history, highlighting how understanding who to target—and who not to target—can lead to better retention and overall success. This clarity is vital for effective marketing strategies.
"really start at the foundation of retention if you don't have that thing you don't necessarily have essentially the pieces of your system connected in a way that are working together in a healthy way ..."
The Flaws of Benchmarking
Brian expresses his frustrations with traditional benchmarks, arguing that they often fail to capture the nuances of different businesses. He critiques the reliance on averages and the lack of context in benchmark data, suggesting that they can mislead teams about their performance. This segment encourages a shift towards more personalized metrics and peer comparisons.
"can think about this in Dropbox or I like the longer I use Dropbox alright the more people I probably invite to Dropbox because the more files I share and all that kind of stuff but this works for any..."
The Frustration with Benchmarks
Brian expresses his frustrations with benchmarks, arguing that they often fail to provide meaningful insights. He explains that benchmarks are typically based on averages and do not account for the unique nuances of different companies and products. This can lead to misguided conclusions about performance.
"fundamentally ok thing and we went through this you know though in the lore of HubSpot the history of pop spot that they tell you as you come in as a new employee they talked about a few different piv..."
Understanding Your Target Market
Brian emphasizes the importance of clearly defining target markets and understanding who to focus on for retention efforts. He shares insights from HubSpot's history, illustrating how clarity in targeting can lead to better retention strategies. This segment reinforces the idea that knowing your audience is crucial for effective marketing.
"moment I'm pretty sure there's some mobile games hyper casual games or maybe a little not so hyper casual but pretty casual that I've been in for a long time and have not purchased that are like you k..."
Rethinking Measurement Strategies
In this segment, Brian advocates for a more nuanced approach to measurement. He suggests forming small groups of professionals with similar attributes to share insights rather than relying on broad benchmarks. This collaborative approach can yield more relevant and actionable data for marketers.
"and the problem is is that that question and the answer to that question depends on some very like first principle thinking about like who your product is what your growth model is what your audience ..."
Retention's Role in High Performance
The conversation shifts to the significance of retention in achieving high performance within a category. Brian discusses how retention metrics can indicate the health of a business and its potential for growth. This segment highlights the foundational role of retention in driving overall business success.
"fundamentally ok thing and we went through this you know though in the lore of HubSpot the history of pop spot that they tell you as you come in as a new employee they talked about a few different piv..."
The Problem with Average Metrics
Brian critiques the concept of average metrics in benchmarking, arguing that they often obscure the true performance of a business. He advocates for a more nuanced approach to understanding metrics, encouraging teams to focus on first principles and the unique aspects of their business models. This segment challenges conventional thinking about performance measurement.
"I have so many frustrations with benchmarks I think we could probably just do a like anti benchmark podcast episode we really wanted to so but I will I will I will attempt to constrain myself and talk..."
Finding Value in Data Providers
The conversation wraps up with a discussion on the value of certain data providers that offer meaningful insights into retention metrics. Brian acknowledges that while many benchmarks are flawed, some sources can provide useful context and data for marketers looking to improve their strategies.
"approached and kind of just like looking at these these numbers out there sorry last thing on this and then I will cut myself off there are some exceptions to this there are some people who gather som..."
The Dual Response to Benchmark Critique
Brian shares insights on how audiences react to his critiques of benchmarks. He notes that while some embrace the new perspective, others feel overwhelmed and need to rethink their entire approach to metrics, highlighting the challenge of changing established mindsets in the industry.
"show right there but I didn't want to think about one of the things though when you were talking I mean I would just be curious because I was sitting here it's the first time I'm hearing this Brian ri..."
Alternative Approaches to Benchmarking
In this segment, Brian suggests alternative methods for evaluating performance, such as collaborating with peers who share similar attributes. He emphasizes the value of context in understanding metrics and encourages marketers to seek out relevant comparisons rather than relying solely on industry benchmarks.
"for a team yeah really bad position for a team to be operating from there's all sorts of other problems right most benchmarks are based on averages they don't clean out some of them clean out outliers..."
The Cost of Misguided Metrics
Balfour warns about the dangers of drawing incorrect conclusions from benchmarks, which can lead businesses in the wrong direction. He stresses the importance of foundational thinking in metrics to avoid the pitfalls of relying on potentially misleading data.
"like one basket and so we do get that we do get people who are like great like let me start thinking about this from first principles and foundational perspective but it's hard to get away from the be..."
First Principles Thinking in Metrics
Brian concludes by advocating for a first principles approach to understanding metrics and retention. He encourages marketers to think critically about their target markets and retention rates, using thought exercises to assess business potential. This segment reinforces the importance of foundational thinking in driving effective marketing strategies.
"like you know in reforged we get these questions all the time it's like a battle that I feel like I'm constantly fighting and what I would really encourage people to think from is like truly like firs..."
The Frustration with Benchmarks
Balfour expresses his frustration with the reliance on benchmarks in business metrics. He highlights the challenges professionals face when executives demand external validation of success, which can lead to misguided conclusions. He advocates for a foundational approach to understanding metrics rather than accepting benchmarks at face value.
"much better is typically a much better approached and kind of just like looking at these these numbers out there sorry last thing on this and then I will cut myself off there are some exceptions to th..."
Understanding Measurement Variability
Brian discusses the variability in measurement across different companies and verticals. He highlights the importance of defining key metrics like user retention versus dollar retention and the need for specificity in understanding what those numbers truly represent.
"going and you're kind of like looking at fool's gold right you don't even know you're going in a bad direction until everything hits a brick wall and so and so like that I think is like that is like k..."
The Duality of Reactions to Metrics
In this segment, Balfour reflects on the mixed reactions he receives when discussing the limitations of traditional metrics. He notes that while some individuals embrace a new perspective on retention, others feel overwhelmed and need to reevaluate their existing models. This highlights the tension between established practices and innovative thinking in growth strategies.
"show right there but I didn't want to think about one of the things though when you were talking I mean I would just be curious because I was sitting here it's the first time I'm hearing this Brian ri..."
Retention as an Output
Balfour explains that retention is fundamentally an output of user engagement, activation, and reactivation. He emphasizes the need for companies to focus on these inputs to improve retention rates, illustrating how different factors influence user loyalty and engagement.
"dangerous yeah in terms of measurement you you've delved into it a little bit but what have you seen in terms of differences in measurement whether it's CAC whether it's LTV whether it's different thi..."
Engineering Retention Through Use Cases
Brian elaborates on how companies can engineer retention by layering use cases. He provides examples of successful companies that have expanded their offerings to increase user engagement and retention, demonstrating the importance of understanding user needs and habits.
"know we won't even go down to is it the feature or the product we'll just hit it they're loyal okay Brian just to keep it there but I'm just curious as well about how I engineer that output is there s..."
The Dangers of Misinterpreting Metrics
Balfour warns about the risks of misinterpreting metrics and the potential consequences of drawing incorrect conclusions from benchmarks. He emphasizes the importance of foundational thinking in metrics analysis and the need for professionals to be aware of the pitfalls of relying on superficial data.
"from the benchmarks for a couple reasons one is that unfortunately like executives still demand it and it's so it's so it's so frustrating it's like they're a lot of times they're looking for that ext..."
The Power of Layering Use Cases
Balfour highlights the strategy of layering use cases to enhance user retention. He discusses how companies like Calm have successfully integrated additional use cases to tap into existing user habits, thereby increasing overall engagement and retention.
"overall I think you've also kind of seen this and brilliantly in a couple other spaces so I think one is the meditation app calm and you know led by an amazing leader there her name is done Wang their..."
Understanding Measurement Variability
Brian Balfour discusses the variability in measurement across different companies and verticals. He explains how retention metrics can differ significantly even within the same category, stressing the need for specificity in defining metrics and understanding the context behind them.
"right you don't even know you're going in a bad direction until everything hits a brick wall and so and so like that I think is like that is like kind of like the downside of it so we kind of see a li..."
Defining Retention Metrics
In this segment, Balfour elaborates on the complexities of defining retention metrics, including user retention versus dollar retention. He highlights the importance of context, such as the time period and specific user actions, in accurately interpreting retention data.
"dangerous yeah in terms of measurement you you've delved into it a little bit but what have you seen in terms of differences in measurement whether it's CAC whether it's LTV whether it's different thi..."
The Power of Immediate Rewards
Brian highlights the difference in user rewards between meditation and sleep. He notes that the immediate and visceral reward of a good night's sleep is far more compelling than the gradual benefits of meditation, which can affect how easily users engage with these products over time.
"whole so yes it's absolute genius I have amuse and and so you know the muse is supposed to help you meditate and stuff like that and honestly I might pull out of the box every three months or somethin..."
Retention as an Output
Balfour emphasizes that retention is fundamentally an output of effective product usage. He identifies three core inputs—activation, engagement, and resurrection—that drive retention, and discusses the importance of continuously adapting these inputs to meet changing user needs.
"that I just kind of described right there but it's all different and now we're not even getting into the permutations of like okay once you define all those things then there's all sorts of different ..."
Understanding Metrics for Retention
Brian discusses the importance of understanding user habits and product use cases when analyzing retention metrics. He warns that metrics without context can lead to misguided strategies, emphasizing the need to align metrics with user behavior and product strengths.
"builder yeah exactly and so these are some of the nuances around retention right like we just talked about a couple of them which is around like are you tapping into an existing habit versus building ..."
Engineering Retention: A Dual Approach
In this segment, Brian explores whether retention can be engineered into a product or if it must arise naturally from the core use case. He argues that both aspects are crucial and that successful products often blend engineered features with natural user habits.
"are not or useless and even worse as if we were talking about can point you in the wrong directions and that's interesting right because that's something that Peggy now we're talking about earlier rig..."
Layering Use Cases for Retention
Brian Balfour explains how companies can engineer retention by layering use cases over time. He illustrates this concept with examples from successful companies that have expanded their offerings to increase user engagement and retention, demonstrating the importance of understanding user needs and habits.
"know we won't even go down to is it the feature or the product we'll just hit it they're loyal okay Brian just to keep it there but I'm just curious as well about how I engineer that output is there s..."
Growth Models: Strengths and Weaknesses
Brian elaborates on the strengths and weaknesses inherent in different growth models, using Facebook and HubSpot as examples. He explains how understanding these dynamics can help businesses focus their efforts on areas that require more work to achieve retention.
"naturally with the use case of your product we say this across all of reforge even like if you look at your growth model and its entirety and every growth model has some natural strengths and some nat..."
Innovative Retention Strategies
In this final segment, Balfour discusses innovative strategies for enhancing retention, using examples like meditation and sleep apps. He highlights how addressing natural user habits can lead to increased engagement and loyalty, showcasing the importance of aligning product offerings with user needs.
"start off with the roofer well I only me a roofer once every hopefully like multiple years or something like that and so as a result if I only have roofers as a category right I'm only gonna use them ..."
Set-and-Forget Products vs. Active Engagement
Brian contrasts set-and-forget products, like API tools, with those requiring active user engagement. He discusses how the initial setup can be a barrier but once overcome, retention becomes easier, highlighting the importance of understanding user journeys.
"set-and-forget products where if you think about something like let me think a lot of developer tools kind of fit in this category like API products and stuff where if we think about like a Twilio or ..."
The Power of Immediate Rewards
Brian Balfour elaborates on the difference in user rewards between meditation and sleep. He notes that the immediate and visceral reward of a good night's sleep is far more compelling than the gradual benefits of meditation, which can affect user retention strategies. Understanding these reward dynamics is crucial for product development and user engagement.
"whole so yes it's absolute genius I have amuse and and so you know the muse is supposed to help you meditate and stuff like that and honestly I might pull out of the box every three months or somethin..."
Learning from Successful Retention Strategies
Brian shares insights on learning from successful companies like Calm and Zoom. He emphasizes the importance of recognizing the hard work behind their retention strategies and understanding that not all businesses can replicate their success without adapting to their unique contexts.
"won't go there it's depends right you're talking about sort of set it forget it I was thinking of my experience with zapier now that I now will you know oh it's it it's part of my life forever now it'..."
Metrics and Understanding User Behavior
Balfour emphasizes the necessity of understanding user behavior and product use cases when developing metrics. He warns that metrics without context can lead to misguided strategies, highlighting the importance of aligning metrics with user habits and product strengths to drive retention effectively.
"builder yeah exactly and so these are some of the nuances around retention right like we just talked about a couple of them which is around like are you tapping into an existing habit versus building ..."
Engineering Retention: A Dual Approach
In this segment, Balfour discusses whether retention can be engineered or if it is inherently tied to the product's core use. He argues that while some aspects can be engineered, others are naturally integrated into the product's use case, illustrating the need for a balanced approach in retention strategies.
"are not or useless and even worse as if we were talking about can point you in the wrong directions and that's interesting right because that's something that Peggy now we're talking about earlier rig..."
The Reality of Growth Models
In this segment, Brian reflects on the imperfections of growth models and the constant pursuit of improvement. He encourages marketers to focus on their unique challenges and to build their strategies progressively rather than trying to emulate every successful element from other companies.
"side those there's copy-paste modes kind of just rarely work unless you really understand like the deep like the deep nuances and stuff and how it kind of fits into your overall ecosystem but usually ..."
The Importance of Customer Success
Brian Balfour discusses the critical role of customer success teams in maintaining revenue over time at HubSpot. He highlights the challenges faced when key personnel, like a VP of Marketing, leave, and how this impacts retention. This segment emphasizes the hard work behind achieving healthy net revenue retention numbers and the balance between automated systems and daily user engagement.
"up front right we cap you know the average ACP was like 9 K it was a year-long contract and it was a capture and maintain motion right like so we capture and then we had to really work at maintaining ..."
Understanding Growth Models: Strengths and Weaknesses
Balfour explains the importance of recognizing the strengths and weaknesses of different growth models. He uses Facebook and HubSpot as examples, illustrating how user acquisition and retention dynamics vary across products. This understanding is crucial for marketers to tailor their strategies effectively.
"naturally with the use case of your product we say this across all of reforge even like if you look at your growth model and its entirety and every growth model has some natural strengths and some nat..."
Set-and-Forget Products: Retention Challenges
Brian Balfour discusses the concept of 'set-and-forget' products, such as API tools, which can present unique retention challenges. He explains that while these products may require significant initial setup, they can provide ongoing value, making retention easier once users are onboarded.
"set-and-forget products where if you think about something like let me think a lot of developer tools kind of fit in this category like API products and stuff where if we think about like a Twilio or ..."
Flaws in Growth Models
In this segment, Brian reflects on the inherent flaws in every growth model and the pursuit of perfection. He shares insights on how businesses often try to emulate successful companies without recognizing their unique challenges. Brian emphasizes the importance of identifying specific areas to improve and building progressively over time, rather than striving for an unattainable ideal.
"because you have aspects of kind of both sides there you have a bit of a set and forget because you've got platform aspect where it connects with a lot of api's and stuff like that but you've also got..."
Learning from Successful Companies
In this segment, Balfour reflects on the importance of learning from successful companies like Calm and Zoom. He emphasizes that while there are valuable patterns to observe, each business must adapt strategies to their unique context, highlighting the need for a tailored approach to retention.
"won't go there it's depends right you're talking about sort of set it forget it I was thinking of my experience with zapier now that I now will you know oh it's it it's part of my life forever now it'..."
Targeting the Right Audience
Brian explains how Reforge tailors its educational programs for specific target audiences, such as product managers and marketers with significant experience. He critiques the generalization in business education that leads to watered-down content, making it difficult for professionals to apply what they learn. This segment underscores the importance of context and relevance in professional development.
"know all these types of things I wanted to ask you about people who come into your courses I'm guessing a lot of them are pretty high-end marketers pretty high-end brands in a lot of cases what are on..."
The Complexity of Retention Metrics
Balfour discusses the complexities of retention metrics, using HubSpot as an example. He explains how different growth models impact retention numbers and the effort required to maintain them. This insight underscores the importance of understanding the underlying factors that contribute to retention success.
"side those there's copy-paste modes kind of just rarely work unless you really understand like the deep like the deep nuances and stuff and how it kind of fits into your overall ecosystem but usually ..."
Learning from Experience
Brian shares his perspective on the learning curve in marketing and product management, emphasizing that even experienced professionals often face new challenges. He discusses the value of learning from others who have tackled similar problems and the importance of understanding the depth of concepts like retention metrics. This segment highlights the continuous evolution of knowledge in the marketing field.
"they are specifically working on a product in a company right they're not just kind of generally advising they're kind of like in the trenches the number of other factors as well and so you have to kn..."
The Depth of Retention Metrics
In this segment, Brian elaborates on the complexities of retention metrics and the layers of understanding required to master them. He explains how Reforge helps marketers and product managers grasp these concepts deeply, moving beyond surface-level knowledge. This discussion emphasizes the need for a comprehensive understanding of various factors influencing retention and engagement.
"combine in a different way so and not only that but we get a lot of people who are like hey I've heard a lot of bits and pieces of this or I've been exposed to a lot of bits and pieces of this but I n..."
Building a Sustainable Growth Model
In this concluding segment, Balfour emphasizes that no growth model is perfect. He encourages marketers to focus on identifying areas for improvement and building progressively over time, rather than striving for unattainable perfection in retention strategies.
"had to work for and not and so like trying to think of like other examples a lot of people kind of look at companies like zoom as an example where they're like oh I'm an amazing net dollar retention l..."
Growth Models and Their Flaws
Balfour reflects on the inherent flaws in every growth model, stressing the importance of not striving for perfection. He shares insights on how businesses often compare themselves to successful companies without recognizing their unique challenges and the need for gradual improvement over time.
"interesting as an example as well because you have aspects of kind of both sides there you have a bit of a set and forget because you've got platform aspect where it connects with a lot of api's and s..."
Hindsight and Learning from Mistakes
Brian reflects on his past experiences at HubSpot, discussing moments of frustration and realization about his own misconceptions. He emphasizes the importance of context and communication in understanding business strategies and metrics. This segment serves as a reminder that recognizing one's own gaps in knowledge is crucial for personal and professional growth.
"from it it's a bootcamp tear them down build them back up I don't want to say that I mean yeah like it it like I said before the purpose is not to tear them down but I think then we we try to like ope..."
Identifying the Marginal Audience
Brian introduces the concept of the marginal audience, or adjacent users, who are on the fringes of a company's current user base. He discusses the significance of understanding these users, especially in the context of behavioral changes due to COVID-19. This segment highlights strategies for engaging with potential customers who show intent but face barriers to entry.
"that with with kind of a lot of hindsight looking at a lot of different example and seeing a lot of similar situations and so I wish it was something not yeah like that perspective is I think a really..."
Targeted Learning for Marketers
Brian explains how Reforge tailors its educational programs for specific audiences, particularly experienced marketers and product managers. He critiques the generalization in business education, arguing that it often leads to watered-down content that lacks practical application for professionals in the field.
"know all these types of things I wanted to ask you about people who come into your courses I'm guessing a lot of them are pretty high-end marketers pretty high-end brands in a lot of cases what are on..."
Understanding Marginal Audiences
Brian discusses the concept of marginal audiences, or adjacent users, who are on the periphery of a company's current user base. He explains how identifying and understanding these users can lead to growth, especially in the context of changing behaviors due to COVID-19. This segment underscores the importance of targeting users who show intent but may be struggling to engage with the product.
"so the credit on this concept in really goes to Bengali Kaba the former head of cars of Instagram and PPA growth instacart he's I've been talking to he's in the IR a tree Forge right now he leads a co..."
Navigating Problem-Solving in Growth
Balfour discusses the common experience of marketers facing unfamiliar problems in their roles. He emphasizes the importance of learning from others who have tackled similar challenges and the need for a deep understanding of metrics and strategies to effectively drive growth.
"they are specifically working on a product in a company right they're not just kind of generally advising they're kind of like in the trenches the number of other factors as well and so you have to kn..."
The Impact of COVID-19 on Retention
In this segment, Brian analyzes how businesses experiencing growth due to COVID-19 may face challenges in retaining new users once normalcy returns. He uses Zoom as an example, illustrating how users who adopted the platform out of necessity may revert to previous habits. This discussion emphasizes the need for companies to focus on retaining users who align with their core use cases.
"it experiencing tailwind right like they're benefiting there for some reason they're benefiting from like the new behavior change and the reason that's important is like most people were experiencing ..."
The Depth of Retention Metrics
In this segment, Brian elaborates on the layers of complexity within retention metrics. He highlights the importance of understanding these metrics in depth to effectively communicate and influence strategies within organizations, illustrating how Reforge helps marketers grasp these concepts.
"combine in a different way so and not only that but we get a lot of people who are like hey I've heard a lot of bits and pieces of this or I've been exposed to a lot of bits and pieces of this but I n..."
Locking in New User Habits
Brian explains the importance of locking in new user habits formed during the pandemic. He suggests that companies should focus on retaining users who have adapted to remote work and may continue to do so. This segment highlights strategies for reinforcing positive user behaviors and ensuring long-term engagement.
"to focus your firepower on retaining people that you've already built the core use case for and their-their habitat has been accelerated um is fine but the highest ro efforts is kind of on this adjace..."
Learning from Past Mistakes
Brian shares personal anecdotes about misjudgments in his career, particularly at HubSpot. He reflects on how assumptions and misalignments can lead to frustration and emphasizes the value of hindsight in recognizing one's own role in past challenges.
"from it it's a bootcamp tear them down build them back up I don't want to say that I mean yeah like it it like I said before the purpose is not to tear them down but I think then we we try to like ope..."
Understanding the Marginal Audience
Balfour introduces the concept of the marginal audience, or adjacent users, who are on the periphery of a company's current user base. He discusses the importance of identifying these users, especially in the context of changing behaviors due to COVID-19, and how to support them in overcoming barriers to engagement.
"that with with kind of a lot of hindsight looking at a lot of different example and seeing a lot of similar situations and so I wish it was something not yeah like that perspective is I think a really..."
Retention as a Cross-Functional Effort
Brian discusses the role of retention within organizations, emphasizing that it should stem from product teams and involve cross-functional collaboration. He argues that effective retention strategies require input from product, engineering, marketing, and customer success teams. This segment highlights the necessity of breaking down silos to build leverage and solve retention challenges effectively.
"but that college professor that like you know just wants to get back to the lecture hall or something like that probably not the highest use of use of your your effort and so my guess is like on the t..."
The Importance of Team Collaboration
In this concluding segment, Brian shares insights on the significance of collaboration among different teams in an organization. He reflects on his experiences at HubSpot, where cross-functional teams were essential for addressing retention challenges. This discussion reinforces the idea that successful retention strategies require a unified approach across various departments.
"have to pick out whether you're going to hop on to existing habits create new habits now what I do a lot of is interview app marketers who are just really beginning to think about this and it's intere..."
Identifying the Next User
In this segment, Brian emphasizes the need for businesses to focus on identifying the next user—those who show intent but struggle to engage with the product. He explains how understanding these users can help companies unlock retention strategies and improve their offerings.
"coronavirus and you've talked about marginal audience identifying and keeping your marginal audience you talk a little bit about that what is that yes so the credit on this concept in really goes to B..."
Tailwinds and Retention Challenges
Brian elaborates on the concept of 'tailwinds'—businesses benefiting from new behaviors due to COVID-19. He warns that companies focusing on retaining all new users may face challenges as behaviors normalize, stressing the importance of targeting users who align with the product's core use case.
"another and and how do you start to unblock them why are they struggling and how do you help them like get a start deadline struggle and so the marginal user is important in the context of kovat speci..."
The Zoom Dilemma
Using Zoom as a case study, Brian illustrates the challenges of retaining users who were forced to adopt a product out of necessity rather than preference. He argues that businesses should focus their retention efforts on users who genuinely benefit from their core offerings rather than those who may revert to previous habits.
"there's tons of examples out there right like especially like zooms been like that the most dimension yeah the poster child of like hey you've got all of these college professors that are now forced -..."
Building Retention Through Product Development
Brian discusses the critical role of product development in retention strategies. He advocates for cross-functional teams that include product managers, engineers, and marketers to effectively address retention challenges and build leverage through technology.
"they're those are the set of companies that would be probably an amazing set to you like make sure that you've locked in their behavior no matter what goes after but that college professor that like y..."
The Role of Cross-Functional Teams
In this segment, Brian highlights the importance of collaboration between different functions within an organization to solve retention issues. He shares insights from his experience at HubSpot, emphasizing that effective retention strategies require input from various departments, including sales and customer success.
"have to pick out whether you're going to hop on to existing habits create new habits now what I do a lot of is interview app marketers who are just really beginning to think about this and it's intere..."
The Future of Retention Strategies
Brian concludes with reflections on the evolving landscape of retention strategies. He stresses the need for organizations to adapt and innovate in their approaches to retention, ensuring that all teams work together to create a cohesive strategy that aligns with user needs.
"and and in fact like if you get into a mode where there isn't that support you tend to end up just starting to throw bodies at it and when you just start throwing bodies at it you don't you're not get..."