should I wear these I have to are you going to play stuff just bombs and just when you say things like impactful I'll like drop a bomb on it like a so kind of well was like well I like being [Music] celebrated that's how you know when the album and the artist understand one another is when you say as much and reveal as much on this record as you have and you want to share it yeah no there I definitely know what
it's like to be like uh like it's definitely not as good as I wanted it to be like I know what that feels like it's the worst feeling in the world I reckon it's got to be the worst feeling one of the worst feelings for any artist to realize you pulled up short um but I also reckon his learning in that yeah and we're so used to this kind of hardworking productive creative humility
that seems to follow you and your brother to you know and people in your circle and stuff but at the end of the day you're still a star no this is going to be very fun I like this it always is I'm so happy to see you at this really impactful and important moment of your life you and pathogen you um it's really the gift and the curse of everybody with a true artistic spirit is to absorb and see too
much it's the gift is to be able to share it and express it so never an easy process though and you really made it hard for yourself in the best way possible I really did make it hard for myself I keep making it harder weirdly enough I can't help it I feel like if I'm not doing that then it's like where am I going am I go am I working towards the musician I really want to be am I working towards the human I really want
to be like all of the greats you know tried to challenge themselves and put themselves in situations that forced them to become who they are you know when you're a kid it gets summarized in a very simple statement which is you're being high on yourself did you hear that a lot when you were a kid so much yeah so much but I was like if I'm not doing that what am I doing I'm just sitting
here being like oh that was good enough right like yeah that just doesn't sit right with me you know yeah I I I always think like I always think when you're young and you don't really understand the impact of a statement like you're being hard on yourself it's almost like to me I always felt like yeah yeah great exactly like that's we're me another compliment yeah totally totally I'm right there with you I don't think
any anybody who ever did something important was like ah it's fine that's fine it's fine that level you know that's like just complacently just being like ah I'm sure there was always a part of you as well that felt that you know being creative and proving yourself went hand in hand the you know the idea of like you know okay I know what's in my heart and in my Spirit how many hours do I have to
put into this before someone sees me for me you're so right on like I don't think I could have even I don't think I could have explained it better I think those two are intertwined in a in a really weird beautiful but also slightly unhealthy way just because of the way that that I was brought up that's been a huge struggle for me and I'm trying to like kind of separate like my identity
and my like sense of value [Music] from what I produce musically and how it's received you did it you definitely did it because I wondered whether a certain amount of that Restless Creative Energy that you have that idea of like did that what's next is sort of part of that is kind of wrapped up into that identity of like hey I got to prove that I can do these things things that
inspire me I can get them done and I always felt like the things that I really worked on the things that like I really put my mind into and like tried to make the best thing people kind of didn't really mess with that as much like it's really interesting like you know coping mechanism obviously you know got so much love and people loved that album but I was lowkey kind of like damn like
I personally felt like it was it was one of the best rock albums that came out that year and it just kind of felt like people kind of slept on it a little bit so here's the reality about rock about rock music really hard room to walk into yeah really tough no matter how good you are I mean every room is going to be hard to walk into true but Rock has this thing I think because Rock has been surpassed
not to create genre hierarchy but has been surpassed certainly in terms of noise not for the fans but for it in terms of its place and moving the needle by so many other things and yet we feel the spirit in us we want to move in that room we want to do things you made an authentic Rock record but it's just it it's kind of a bruised genre yeah I mean it's tough for that it's tough for that genre to know
what to do with a compliment yeah man that's real that's real and you know obviously I'm so grateful like my gratitude will outweigh any sense of negativity but you know if we're going to be real we're here we're talking about the music you know what I'm saying like that's you know that's the truth and I kind of do feel like with this next project I want to even though I just put myself in it again
150% you know what I'm saying even more I'm trying to like separate that like need for validation you know what I'm saying saying like oh I sat in my room for 4 hours a day and I practiced the guitar and I practiced and I transcribed all of these elepant Gerald records and I it's like do that for you Willow yeah yeah don't do that because you're so thirsty for people to recognize that
you're you when you already know that you're you yeah you know you don't have to explain that every time you walk in the room hey did I tell you about the records I transcribed and all the other things it's just like how exhausting a existence that is bro for real like that's why I'm just like yeah what is validation at the end of the day like here's the thing about that kind of validation
insatiable it is the well that never fills 100% so you might get it but guess what then your next project will walk through the door with it with with an outfit on that expects the same reaction what if it doesn't happen 100% the safe space is above the clouds yes Pure Blue Sky mhm you land you give us what you made you go back up through Blue Sky mhm but that that's something you have to learn how to do and everything around
you is going to push you in the direction of not doing that y every comment somebody says every you know what I'm saying and care about what everyone else thinks you have to and like currency 100% And the music industry kind of pushes artists to be in that yeah state where it's like oh like well maybe I should dye my hair because people are liking this color now or like
maybe I should wear this kind of close because people kind of like that now it's like what people really want is to see you that's it that's it that's it and you're right it's hard it takes time it do it takes time you know if you talk to anybody who puts an album out and says this is the authentic me three albums later they'll be like there's a more authentic me on display now it's so true so you know
it's it's one of those things we we wish for ourselves and for others but um time has other ideas 100% and it doesn't matter if you're a musician it doesn't matter if you're an architect or a what it doesn't matter it's a it's the lesson of all of our Lives to figure out how to love ourselves enough to just be be and not care how old are you now can I ask 23 yeah you you you're figuring this out wheree to
schedule at least as far as my life or anyone I know my around my age is concerned it's a beautiful thing and I and I don't say that to say that you're some kind of Standalone Wonder kind of emotional discourse I actually say I actually think that you represent a generation that's figuring it out quicker because we're going to go literally nuts if we don't like that's the we have two choices it's like go to
the dark side and let your mind drunk drive through your life I'm actually probably late there was at least two or three could have gone before um yeah so the drunk driving mind I'm never going to forget that one can I use that yes please s I'll give you no credit sorry just I can't do it exhausting me constantly say this is a statement that Willow made 7 months ago about the drunk driving M just waste my
take it bro take it it's yours now you know we don't want to let our minds drunk drive through our life we want to actually figure out like cuz it's not about control what's going to be the tool can I find my tools yes that's it you know like can I and this album is I feel like a really big representation of me trying to find my tools even though I personally feel like it's some of the best music I've
ever made it's a dual it's a dual Street of like ah I can't be attached to that though yeah it's not about validation when when it's actually part of your growth genuine growth the people who who live up there you know um the St Vincent the Tom Yorks the Frank oceans they're not thinking necessarily just about validation it might play a role in terms of like hey can I keep my lights on
totally but but it's really like how am I changed person after this experience you can hear what the person is really feeling like even if the person in the song is going love yourself you're the best you need you know what I'm saying but then in their mind in the studio they're like oh my gosh like I'm struggling it's not going to hit it could be the best song of all time about loving yourself and being
positive but you're feeling this you're feeling you don't even know why it's just not hitting you know what I'm saying I mean it's it's a pretty bad lyric from the get-go you know love yourself you're the best like I of know some y it's not even y gab gab would throw up on that L by the way my God way worse than that but I hear you I I think here's the thing I think that the best music doesn't really have
answers it just is searching and we are kind of all we really look want is to find something else to another search to align ourselves to because our brain tells us that the result is what's important but really our spirit is telling us to just allow ourselves to enjoy every second we have searching 100% that's it that's it's the searching this the the search to align yourself with that's amazing if I had a little
button I would press it I counted on myself it's a bit early to drop a bom myself are you giving me a license to drop B myself yes yes yes I needed that and that's why we love this album so much Willow and where you've gone with this because it sounds free of that you you did it you got to the authentic place where you're like this is for me I'll figure it out so the album let's get into it
pathogen how are you a changed person from making this record wow I think in the past I used to think like oh like when when this musician notices me when people like that's when that's when I'm going to be like ah but I realized like every single day you pick up the guitar and you you practice every single day you put one foot in front of the other and you try to be more honest with the people you
love you try to you know be more honest in your lyrics like it's not about like oh like once nay Palm notices me like once she's like oh I want to make an album with Willow then it's then I'm going to be like I made it like ah this is amazing it's like no even if nay Palm does want to make an album with me there's going to be a moment when I'm sitting in my house going why do I still feel inadequate you
know yeah and I think how I'm a changed person after making this album is realizing like it's for the rest of your life Willow you're going to pick up that guitar and you're going to practice and try to sharpen your skills for the rest of your life there's there's never going to be an end moment hopefully when I'm 70 I'm still going to be like oh c major scale there's so much to learn from this
you know what I'm saying like hopefully no matter the good news is there's only so many notes so you're going to have to make you have to make with the fact that you those notes are going to are going to be infinite because it's not like you're going to discover a new chord yeah that's the thing you know this feeling of inadequacy that everybody feels but few get an opportunity to kind
of identify and move forward with because life is just get up do your come home who has time for that who has time to sit there and worry about why I feel inadequate right but it's an important thing to kind of I think continue it to to try to sort of understand because I actually think that it it will allow us to create space for positive things 100% and we'll get a little bit out of that negative head
space that kind of I think keeps the world turning in a pretty way 100% I mean there are people who benefit from the the masses us feeling inadequate and artists have always been the ones to counteract to counteract that energy and you know artists have also been some of the ones who have the deepest self-hate you know and we see it but it's like so much in this it's the psychology the psychology of it I keep
having this thing where it's like ah I keep saying to people no they'll give you more money they'll give you more this they'll give you more that where they'll really lose their as if you start asking to to change the psychology yeah change the narrative change the direction in which yeah yeah the the this energy itic river is flowing in a specific Direction you're so right about
the artists being the ones that have always found a way to cut through and tell the truth you know Will I Am said something really cool to me he was just like out of all the channels of communication music and art really is the only one in particular music because even with art if you work with a collaborative space with Studios L people get inside your process as an artist now you can make a song write a
song If it connects with people you put out direct no one can interrupt your message exactly it's pure truth 100% unless you're in a specific spefic situation where the label is telling you unless you allow yourself yeah unless you allow yourself to be compromised 100% And I feel like that's a huge I feel like that's a huge issue that a lot of artists deal with yeah um
like in the past I was on the trajectory of being like pop star like 100% pop star I specifically don't think of myself now as a pop star a lot of people would say oh yeah like she makes pop music like she's totally a quote unquote pop star but there are some pop stars that are really living in that energy yeah and I feel like they 100% feel the pressure of oh my goodness like I'm this
person like I have to I have to uphold this people want to see Perfection your success and your ability to be able to to um just it's like a okay let's go back to it like when you're when you're a baby right all you want to do is survive yeah and you hope your parents are going to help you survive and you need you need them you need them too right but in some cases you got to hope they do and so if you want to put that
psychology right stays with us from the minute we're born into the into the sort of body and the spirit and the mind of a pop star you are relying on other people to survive exactly and that is and that's rooted in that fear of like I am not actually taking responsibility control is not even the word it's just self responsibility for my own passion 100 yeah 100% and that's what scared the living crap out of me
when I was very young yeah because I don't know I just I just got a glimpse into that into how I could be this age and still be a child and not be a child in like my mind and not really be like oh this is the step I want to take how do you even know it's the step you want to take at that age that's the crazy thing no it was it was dark there for a minute um yeah because it's like how did
I get here yeah and now I have a little bit of identity shaping going on here and I'm asking myself that question 100% this is a key moment of my life do I give in and just go with it cuz it's there it's waiting for me or do I actually ask the question is this healthy yes yes how old were you when you figured that pot out how old were you when you asked that question for the even quietly to
yourself for the first time and was like hey man I'm not sure quietly to myself for the first time I might have [Music] been like 10 going on 11 oh Willow but the the crazy thing was that my parents were like bro like when I told them when I was like seven or something that I was like I want to sing like that's what I want to do with my life I remember it so vividly their they their faces they they got really serious and
they were like are you sure and I was like why are you guys why are you guys being so serious they're like no this is like a serious thing like like we're going to we we need to get you in lessons we need to get you in rehearsals you need this is going to become your entire life is going to be consumed by this and I was like oh for sure of course cuz I'm seven for let but
then you start living it and you're like oh so let me ask you this cuz this will take bring us back up to this album really in a really quick beautiful DeLorean fashion um how did you then communicate on the other side of that conversation hey I've changed my mind I don't want to be that I want to stay here and I'm grateful for what I've learned but I want to apply it in a different way and build something
new um I did not express it that way there were you do there were did you set fire to the room I I there were little things like I shaved my head uh when I was obviously I wasn't supposed to do that that was like you know that's thing that's your thing you're the wh my hair girl yeah yeah yeah why like you sh you're the wh my hair now now you're now you have no hair now what so that was like the first
thing to where I was like ah and then I remember I was so exhausted I was I was on tour I was on tour with Justin Bieber my first tour I ever went on love him to death shout out he one of the most beautiful people I've ever met and I'm so grateful for him yeah but what a what a lot no it was insane making up at 5:00 a.m. rehearsals going to the stadium like all this stuff and it it had been like a month yeah it
had been like a month of this on tour and I remember going to my dad and being like Hey Dad like I'm exhausted my guy like I didn't even know how to express it and he looks at me and he goes M I understand but um you gave Justin Bieber your word mhm that you were going to finish this mhm and we don't go against our commitments MH so we're going to be here for you and we're going to support
you and I hear you and come here and let me hold you but also we're not stopping there's no there's no world where where we go against that is our word he listen as a parent that is one of the realest moments you face because I can't speak for your dad although I've met him a couple of times always really enjoyed meeting you sweet dude no he's beautiful I mean that lesson is what has made me a
better M that's what that's what keeps me making me a better musician but but see his principles was saying that his heart wanted to just no his heart was like oh my God baby come here God how do I make it easy for you yeah you know and that's that's so hard as a parent to walk that line hard cuz you want your child to to have these to have these skill sets of staying in the moment not necessarily white knuckling but knowing
what is important knowing their values and not wavering you want your kid to be strong and you also the the weight of your word yep 100% the weight of your word and and so I was like okay the weight of my word now I'm going to put my word into no now I'm going to put my word into how about not doing that and I said no to you know making the album I was supposed to make that I was I love Jay-Z Rock
Nation is so beautiful I love them so much you know they really could have been like what the heck Willow what are you doing I mean I violated the contract so many times like it crazy but the love that they still showed me and they still show me till this day is so beautiful but yeah I I said no to to a lot of things um it was difficult it was it was slightly detrimental um but I'm so glad that I
did because Yeah Yeah medium to long term you you created a pathway and I mean this genuinely I don't want to scoff at this like you pay as an artist your artistic uh Journey you paved a pathway to survival like you probably would have done all those things and then checked out 100% and now you're here out number six out number six and I don't think you are quote unquote a pop star I think you
I think you make music which has every right to be popular but I I think you are have hard-earned the right to exist on your own name 100% out of any genre really and everything that I learned from those moments of like oh my goodness like I'm so exhausted like I don't want to do this but keep going keep going keep going I take all of that that I learned and I put it into my musition ship yeah like
determination is arguably focus and determination is arguably the most important skill to have I would add execution execution so Focus determination and execution because because I I I speak from experience and know people who have experience where they have they they put all the effort in and all the focus in and then something gets in the way and then the execution gets 100% do you
think it would surprise the Casual fan How Deeply committed you've been to the learning of all of this to the to the picking up the instrument to cuz I know that you really are like a student of this experience oh yeah 100% like I would actually go as far as to say I don't know you very well but I always enjoy meeting you and getting to know you and I really think that actually you
get a kick out of the stuff you do on your own learning about it I do and that actually applying it as part of the process of commitment execution but the learning is your 100% 100% like I was taught as a child like you work externally you know what I'm saying and you like do the interviews and the tours and the and you go go go go go go go but now I'm realizing as an adult that amount of external energy put it into
the actual put it into the sitting in your room for 4 hours a day put it into the listening and studying put it into the and then the music will come the music will come because you've been you've been digging digging on your own and so the digging digging on your own is just I find that's that's going to be my bread and brother for the rest of my life your curiosity 100% yeah yeah yeah I think
that's something that we often Overlook as the idea of curiosity's role in all of this I think once we start to get some headwind some success whatever we feel that okay I'll I'll add to the tools but the tools work we just use these tools and you forget actually that like n man the real growth is like the pushing yourself to try things the uncomfortable places that's one of the things I love about this album is how
comfortable you are on the uncomfortable yes yes and honestly I mean just taking big feelings just just big feelings there were moments there where I was like oh my gosh like I've never sang like this before uh I don't know if I'm going to sound absolutely ridiculous like all of these things things that go into your mind you're like wow like is this going to sound like the craziest
weirdest anyone's ever heard which it does in inner voice is telling you to do it before You' even used your external voice to see what it is that's so crazy you know most people are just like hey I've got this voice I know how to use it you have't inner voice going you haven't tried this going try it try it try it try 100% that's crazy I was just talking to Yousef da amazing drummer love youf T
um and going back to like learning new things and keeping the Curiosity yeah he was like man I need to practice more we're in the studio he's like ah I need to practice more I'm like bro you're a beast you're a beast like you're killing it he's like no telling me all of these things listing all of these things that he wants to sit down and practice and like no I I need to I need to like you
know kind of Chill on touring and like just practice so I can come back with some new skills I couldn't think of anything better I know than realizing that my job is to just practice and get better how cool is that yeah like my job is to get better at what I love otherwise I can't offer people something new that's going to give everybody a renewed sense of our relationship 100% you know this is the thing about you
is you keep raising the bar on what it is to be a willow fan and I love that I no but I love that you refuse to let us sit still and and feel and feel like oh I know what she's going to I know Willow I figured it out I love that and I and I think this album is is is a really is the is the is the most high octane example of that I want to know what it felt like or where you were and be as
granular as you can remember when you realized that you had found the core value or the central nucleus the soulle of this record sound of feeling and you're like I'm going to have to go there now cuz I know cuz it excites me yeah I was I was at my homie's house Chris Griot's house love him dearly I worked with him on coping mechanism as well and I'm sitting there and we weren't even
supposed to be recording that day and I was like H you know like I usually it's been so soon you know since since I dropped it's been so like I don't record he's like oh we got to get in the studio we got to get in the studio and I'm like my guy like that's not how I do it that's not how I do it like I got to chill right and so we're just at his house chilling and I'm playing him a whole bunch of stuff and
at the end I'm like but that's not even what I want it to sound like bro like I could play you all of this but there's nothing that sounds like what I want it to sound like did you even know at the time what you wanted or was it really just kind of cuz I often I and I know others feel feel it with in slight definition before a to put into words it's like it's like I can almost explain
what it is I want okay so let me back up I had been so before this even happened I love a good back up I had been on a trip with one of my closest friends and we were just chilling watching the sunset where in Napa Valley mhm and we're just chilling watching the sunset having a little bit of wine and they put on chat Baker and I'm like okay that'll do it that'll do it right and so from that
moment I was like okay this next album it doesn't I don't want it to sound like chat Baker but his voice and the depth of weight like you just hear everything he's been through and he does it in a way that's that you could almost like incorrectly apply to Lounge singing but it's heartbreaking it's too heartbreaking for that so God bless NEPA God bless bless God bless a strong Cerita Peno bro and a amazing Chip Baker
moment and then that was it I was like okay that spirit that soul I need to tap into that what is that for me how do I tap into that for me so I'm playing Chris a bunch of this and I'm like but that's not even it bro and he's like okay three songs in three sessions in three or four sessions in we make symptom of Life yeah well I can imagine that was it that was the seed that was I
was having a conver ation with Jack anof not too long ago and he was saying there's always that song that's the doorway into the house of your album that's it and you can tell because when you listen to your performance on the album you become more the person that is making this record symptom of Life there is a naivity in your performance or in the writing that is like I'm searching
and and I've landed yes yes it's almost like a serendipitous oh oh wait here did you record it exactly 100% racing yeah and then after that you can hear the vibe kind of gets a little bit more solidified and you're like o okay like I can see yeah then I'm hearing you with say Vincent I'm like okay she embodies her performance now on this record how was that recording with Annie wow um we
wouldn't tell me you were in the room cuz she's so wicked she's so wicked she's awesome you know it was me and her and Grotti and you know she she actually was a little bit in a rush believe it or not she had to go she always in a little bit of a rush every time I've ever met don't take it personal I swear she's walked into this room to have an interview and to sit down we have a clean hour and she's sort of on her
phone like uh do I have to I'm do I it's always a sense of that so s Vincent's coming in she's s checking her phone cuz that's what she does she's like oh I got to get to dinner I whatever you know you know she's she's coming up with these amazing chord progressions where uh going back and forth with lyrics blah blah blah and then it comes time for her to to sing to sing her part and we have like 30
minutes she's like she's like okay like guys but the sheer just like confidence and Perfection yeah that she comes to it with and she's telling all of these like DB numbers like numbers of how to EQ her vocal like specific like she just knows the mathematics when gramm's for her new hour she's a Grammy award when rord producer oh yeah oh yeah like she knows her so intensely so I'm just watching
going like I'm just seeing the master at work right you must understand that language after six albums and with the Curiosity you have you're not a checkin checkout session person no you're there the whole way no I'm I'm 100% a producer I'm just now allowing myself to understand that about myself and not be like oh well like no you're a producer you know exactly what you want but the
intricacy in the mathematics that she's expressing like the pro Q plug-in like she's telling like I don't know she's she's just she's trying to save time 100% so she's speaking a language the engineers understand to so she doesn't have to describe it 100% she's got dinner to go she has to leave in 21 minutes and she and she just does it yeah and it's it's just the mo like when you're really watching someone who is a
master yeah she's incredible they don't even have to try to teach you any it's not like oh let me try to teach you it's like you just watch them and you're automatically better that's how I felt I was like I just became a better musician by being silent and saying nothing yeah and watching her do this yeah because now you're like I want to be able to do that through my own language yes yeah
100% I'm so glad that you sat there before and said I'm allowing myself to to accept that I'm a producer I've been a producer for a while but for some reason but for some reason I I really struggled with a little bit of like self-esteem issues and feeling like I I really always felt like I wasn't as talented of a musician as I wanted to be doesn't this all just get wrapped up into the inadequacy that
you've been trying to figure 100% but now I'm like f that I'm stepping into my full power Beau that am that changes the way I sound that changes the way I make music how it changed the way you approach your friendships and the relationships in your life Wow because the art will serve you however you want it to whether you want to pretend and build an identity that just ignores your inadequacies and
allows you to pretend to be a superhero the art will allow you to do that but relationships won't they will not and or it allows you to tell you your truth like this album and come through the other side of it and the relationships will respond honestly and accordingly as well so I'd imagine not just through music but every part of your life is improving 100% I listen so much more like I feel like in the
past because I was always judging myself going you're not a good enough musician you're not a you're not good enough this is not you need to get better at this you need to stop doing this you need to I carried that energy with me into my relationships of like I'm not always the person to like I can't tell someone how to be a better human being but I was I was deceiving myself
into thinking oh well I can I can give you this advice or I can tell you these things my therapist calls it emotionally mugging people yes I was an emotional mugger 100% I used to be as well man D he when he first told me he was like I think you used to do all that like helping people out fixing certain situations cuz it's how you got validation I was like wow he like put me to sleep for like 7 minutes I'm done I'm
done but it's true it's true it's true he truth bomb me and so now I'm just like I listen more I ask I'm like do you even want my opinion because like I'm not just going to give you my unsolicited opinion just because we're friends and think that you should follow that opinion because in some weird world in my head I just know what's right that's ridiculous yeah that's called being thoughtful with your
thoughtfulness by the way 100% and so I'm just trying to do that because being an emotional mugger is for the freaking Birds dude nobody needs that and nobody wants a friend who whenever you're trying to tell them your issue they're like oh well I read in this book and in this book on chapter 35 that if you do this and like like nobody cares bro no one well like you read 52 self-help books and you're still an
like I don't have enough bombs I don't have enough sound effects I don't have enough bombs to drw right now okay so they do care but they need to know that when it's time to care about what it is you're actually offering that it's it's the right thing to care about if we do it all the time it loses its impact and it's shine and we start like you said start to sound more learned than
actually invested and all people want to know is like are you invested in my do you care do you actually care about me go yeah yeah yeah that's what everyone everyone is just if they're really your friend if they really care about you yeah they just want you to care about them yeah super even if you can't fix their problem even if you can't give them advice they just want you to be there for them and hug them and say damn
bro that's hard I feel you that's a really hard situation to be in I I hear you I see you like your dad said I hear you I see you I can't really help you right now Beyond just supporting you but I see you you're on in 15 minutes but I hear you and I see you 100% that's all I really needed was to know that he understood yeah was to know that he understood and of course he I mean the
amount of work that that man has done in his life that he had to really hunker down and be like I'm exhausted there are things in my life that are falling apart um but I'm still here and I'm still moving forward and I'm still trying uh because I know that's what's best for me and I know that I can give back I can be in service even if I'm exhausted and even if some is not going the way I want it to go
what's it been like getting to know your dad again because because that's yeah that's a big again emphasis on again that's what I mean emphasis on again getting to know him again because every relationship that is has a lifelong commitment to it will go through really important stages of development and you are now coming home mhm looking at it very different eyes than when you left and you see your
parents differently 100% so what's it been like getting to know him now I mean since that moment that we had when I was nine he's changed so much and he's even apologized to me for that moment it's powerful on both sides that weirdly enough yeah and I'm telling him I'm like yo like thank you for that apology and in the past I really felt like I needed it but now I'm in a position to where
I'm like yo yeah we can move on I needed that yeah I needed you to tell me that I need like I wouldn't be as strong and I wouldn't be so self I wouldn't be so comfortable with myself and to know not not to just be like oh I think I know that I can get some done if I put my mind to it there's no question about it and he gave me that gift but it also feels really really nice to hear your parent be like
I am sorry for saying that you know I get that you're tired but this is not the time you know what I'm saying because because our perception of how we guide changes over time as well those things felt important to to that relationship then it's completely different sometimes we're horrified I can't even believe I had that thought in my head but they all serve a purpose in the time and the place right it's all
one big beautiful sort of jigsaw puzzle of emotion and experience when I spoke to you a few years back you said the most remarkable thing to me which was you felt that part of the motivation behind making the album that you made at that moment in time was for your mom yep was that you made something to sort of help some healing that your mom never got to go there and do that she could vicariously experience this whole thing
100% okay so at the time I can tell you what I thought at the time CU at the time I was I was obviously just supporting you and your in your narrative in that moment but I remember thinking after when I was trying to explain to my to my wife I think it was or to my friend that that statement how it really kind of caught me off guard I thought it was such an empathetic thing to say but also I
wondered how you would feel about it later on because because our motivation toward cre anything or or building anything it's such a complicated mix of elements and that one was so striking to me that it even entered into your creative Spirit to make that record I saw her struggle intensely with being accepted in the metal Community um even so much so to the point where it was violent yeah um and
extremely chaotic agressive rejection aggressive like extremely chaotic aggressive um but the real ones like I remember the first time I got in the studio with Travis M I was talking about Wicked wisdom my mom's metal band and he was like wait I remember them they were fly like the the was banging and I'm like yo thanks like that's beautiful to hear like the real ones know and because the
real ones are observers and the real ones are students of of The Craft and want the craft to grow 100% they want anyone who's not in the room that's bringing something fresh and authentic get in the room it's the ones who are scared that don't want to let you in exactly The Gatekeepers you know what I'm saying and I am so grateful for coping mechanism because in so many ways it was so full circle
like when my mom Wasing heral her musicer she was experiencing so much anger in her life and that was her way of being like this is a healthy way for me to get it out something that I love and I'm going to bring my kids with me too me and Jaden were with her on tour in these random metal venues like she's just rolling with the like we're just rolling with her like it's nothing yeah and you know just both me and Jaden
being musicians and getting to see it so up close in such an interesting different way in a community that we would never have gotten to see in a way also really important to see a sight of things that because you you come from an environment where hard work and success have been married to each other for a long time to be in an environment where you see your mom struggling for validation must have been a real
contrast right there must have been times when you actually asked yourselves each other or just privately or even her why do it like why put yourself to everything's good over here there was nobody like her yeah maveri man there was nobody like her sure and she had emotions that needed to come out but it was also a political act to go to these places where there's literal skin heads
your mama's punk as 100% like that woman is my whole heart and soul but going back to Kobe mechanism it was so full circle because I was going through so much anger and heartbreak in my life and as a woman to connect with your mother in a way through women don't give themsel enough room to experience their anger like I feel like in society it's very common for people to accept male anger like oh
he's a man he's testosterone like ah yeah he's supposed to be angry he's you know what I'm saying but if you're a woman and if you're a black woman you get deemed as the angry black woman and kind of put to the side and like almost belittled and looked down on and it was so beautiful to feel held and such a like a deep connection through our femininity in such a different way like we're both
women now and she'd look at me be like wow like the woman you have become and handling your pain in such a beautiful way alchemizing your pain into gold that's what I wanted to teach you that's yes you know that's what you know she's like that's what I wanted to teach you how to alchemize your pain into gold that the world can can see and experience and be inspired by so she she sees what's in
the toolbox now 100% what a great day what a great day for any parent man to be like she'll be okay yep totally she's going to be cool and she loves this new I mean this new music for her she's just like yeah cuz this is punk as as well this is a punk record by the way people do not get it twisted this is a punk record you can't put the drums on this album and move Arrangement wise with a sense of
complexity letting the music untangle the emotions and not trying to make them fit together but letting them deliberately pull each other apart letting the music untangle the emotions boom that's it and that's what you've done on this record you're letting them fight yep you broke a battle you broke a p qu over your knee and said I'll be back in an hour and this album's just
fighting you know like the drums are like I want to P you and then the lyrics are just like your up I got to P you 100% yeah 100% but everything is alive every part has a living voice communicating and to me that's what I'm hearing you say yeah yeah you know sure every single part has a spirit they're they're Co they're coexisting together the base has has a voice and a message yeah the vocal has a rhythm and a
message the piano has its deep history and story that it's trying to tell Willow if you told me that this had been created in an improvisational environment I wouldn't have been surprised I mean it's that musical you know I don't even know how you were able to to to give it form when it moves in the directions it moves in instinctively instinctive instinctive in form and not friends often there's I'm a very organ
organ ized person when it comes to the way that I like to record music um there were a lot of improvisational aspects to it but you kind of put it in a container and you have an improvisational moment and then you say ah one two three four of this improvisational moment take those the rest take these now let's build on this and that is what me and Chris are really amazing at doing together is I
will improvise and sing a whole bunch of we listen through it be like ah this this this this this then build the production and write the song around what came naturally that's beautiful cuz it's like it's the best of both worlds you get to listen to your inner voice and let get out of your own way and then you get to edit and move in a way that is a very valid creative objective 100% And it's so interesting
this is why I love working with different people because uh when I put out a loan um because Eddie Benjamin is such an amazing musician and extremely highlevel emotional intelligence that he puts into his instrument it was actually full improvisation and all this instrumentation is happening and then I'm telling him hey that one part repeat that do it again and then he's like oh
wait should I actually move to the piano and do that line I'm like yes go to the piano blah blah blah blah so in a weird way it's like there's there's a certain kind of production that we know nowadays where it's like oh I'm on the computer and so on the grid so on the grid but then there's another kind of production where it's like you have six musicians in the room and you're Quincy Jones yeah
and you're going hey uh you over here on the second guitar you play while you on the drums are going you know what I'm saying telling all these different people all of these different parts to play that's a different kind of production in my eyes it's still producing MH um but with Eddie I felt like I got to experience another side of production in a very different way um and that's why you need
to work with different people that's why you need to expand your horizons that's why you need to you know what I'm saying I don't know yeah I do know what you're saying but you got a good vibe going on here whatever people you're making this rle with I don't want you to be like you know not not that Restless Willow that keeps coming back and surprising us and and inspiring us but um
I mean look you've covered a lot of ground just together already I mean this is vastly different experience you may look back on this album as one of if not your most important record because I really truly when I listen to it feel like you've at the start of something completely new totally I don't feel like it's it's the sum of of all the previous Parts 100% I don't feel get that feeling
at all I feel it's like damn where she going to go now and I don't think you can necessarily in the way you've done it before before make clean break from what you did before to move on to the next thing on the next thing you may not see it that way but as a fan I see you searching for different pockets of time and space to exist in I think this thing now will stay with you to some degree at
least the energy of it 100% you said you don't feel like it's the sum of parts that have come before I have to disagree please I think it is a beautiful culmination of all of the S side stepping and me trying to find my ground and then it's like ah you get to the point where you're like wow all of those moments of me struggling and all of those moments of me trying to learn my instrument and learn my voice and become
better is kind of solidifying right now to me this album and coping mechanism coping mechanism is like the prequel to this album but to me empathogen feels like this is this is number one it feels like okay like Willow from this first step from this point on path now yeah yeah yeah how amazing beautifully put I only have a couple more sort of questions just to tear us up for the
next time the first one is if you've taken such a really amazing and and strong creative step forward as a writer and a producer on this record how is it going to impact what you do as a performer mancal laughter it's going to push me as a performer to really show all that I can really do bro I I personally feel all the learning all the all the practicing all the Curiosity or the studying yes yeah I'm
the kind of person that I'm I personally feel like I'm better in the studio than I am on stage why because the nervousness is not there when I'm in the studio so I can play these Rifts and I can give myself the room to you know be relaxed but then weirdly enough I'm doing more complex things than I would be doing if there was a bunch of people watching do you think up until this point in this album there's been a part
of you that has seen how people see you when you've been on stage that just almost like hard for you to find your own natural comfortable place because of the visibility of who you are versus who you are on that stage everyone should have a right to walk on stage and be who they are in the moment I'd imagine that's been hard for you at times I feel like I've always found a way to be my
myself but I definitely struggled with just being terrified to be perceived that's what I mean as a lesser musician than I know I am yeah yeah yeah like what do you like like almost like looking at the front row and being like what are you really thinking and that's horrible 100% but because I actually look at the front row and because I'm actually looking at these people more often than
not I find that it's less about how good are you playing that riff and more about are you here exactly and so that's what I'm working on is the presence and as the presence deepens I'm hoping that all the things that I'm comfortable enough to play and comfortable enough to sing when I'm recording or just in my house practicing it will become just as comfortable on the stage just sit that scene like just create a stage that
feels like that to you it doesn't have to be a carbon copy but that's why seeing bleaches at cachell on the weekend was such a revelation cuz he just built his Studio MH he literally had recording sign above the thing and it was like the background is from the studio to the stage and it's clear he was he said to himself well I'm going to make it feel comfortable for me so it's comfortable for everybody else 100% And
that is the journey that I'm that's the journey that I'm always going to be on but that's the Journey that I really want to dig into with this album yeah yeah I mean this is the kind of record that you could go and play hundreds of shows and still have more to play if you had the energy because you will emerge from that experience a such greater musician with a such a much better idea
of what you're capable of because the vocal performance and the musicality is going to push you yes every night 100% there's no comfort zone here zero and I do it to myself perfect I do it to myself I almost wish I almost wish I could just be like let me just make a really simple album that's don't just the most simple thing let you finish cuz you don't cuz you don't because guess
what that's what that old life was yep that was the path you were on 100% hey thanks for coming in we've got a couple of songs lined up for you if you like them we'd love you to sing them by all means make them your own but uh we've got some writers at the back on the couch who'll guide you through the process and then we'll send it to you mix and if everyone on your team thinks it's great we'll put it out and then you
can go out and you can tour and I mean everything in averted commas is by Design supposed to make you feel like you're working but it's not really work and that to me was terrifying yeah so this is way better 100% even though I'm going to be sitting up there like okay guys um here we go let me let me let's let's see what happens here the first time you do that those piano keys are going to disappear
you're going to be like where are they where did they go the board just becomes like nothing I'm just like did I get a fretless guitar where are the notes here you know this microphone seems awfully loud and I'll be in the crowd going there she goes there she goes on her Magical Mystery Tour figure it out please don't stop figuring it out good to see you good to see you [Music]