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Tell me about the process of consumption over the years, watching films, watching movies, and how that builds a kind of mental bank that you can pull from as you're writing, as you're shooting films.
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>> It's really interesting because yeah, you get like >> I don't know.
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>> I don't know. I think so much we both did this when we started out where you're just trying to catch up on everything and you've never when you when when we were young and we met in Austin and we were trying to figure out how to not only like become a filmmaker
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but write a screenplay and all of that and you've never seen maybe Wong car you know or you've never seen like you've of we've of course seen whatever you consumed as a as a just a viewer and a lover of film but then once you think about yourself as a practitioner you start trying to educate yourself on it. And now it's really interesting. I think
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And now it's really interesting.
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I think where I'm at right now is like you're trying to find pockets that you haven't seen before that are different, right, of of of the history of like the history of our medium.
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Um, and it's fascinating to go back and look at a lot of silent films and and films from the 30s and and 20s that are like almost like more interesting and more taking more risks than than a lot of things coming out today, which is very counterintuitive, right?
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Because we think of we always think of like art as like always moving forward in a medium. And it is. Um, but I don't know.
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That's >> that's interesting in our relationship.
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Um, Clint has introduced me to so much of like the classic cinema that I missed, you know, growing up.
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And then I I always sort of like was like a a little hunting dog sniffing out like contemporary cinema.
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And so I I always had like a very like good grip of like what the now was and somehow like in >> Yeah.
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Who's worth watching now, >> right?
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And and and we like would sort of share these tastes and sensibilities and notes and >> you know, I've discovered so many movies that Yeah.
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became very formative because of my friendship with Clint.
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But, you know, when growing up, like probably most kids, like you're just seeing the blockbuster movies and the things that are kind of, you know, uh, major releases in Forward, Texas, you know, at the, you know, AMC theater.
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Um, or, you know, just like trying to get to Blockbuster in time, like when a new movie comes out and like be the one that gets one of the three tapes of like whatever like the hot movie was.
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Uh but it like my awakening like from kind of finding things that that are much more personal cinema was you know right as I was starting in film um I saw E2 Mama Tomen. >> Oh yeah.
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>> And that was a movie that really like kind of hit me like a shock wave where I was like oh you can do a movie like that.
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you know, and I think if anything I took from it was like it's a film that allows like the world to breathe into it. >> Yeah.
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>> And um and you know, it's about sort of some of the simplest things of like a road trip to some, you know, mystical beach and they're trying to get laid and things like that, but it's also about the deepest things.
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And um and and I think that was very foundational in terms of opening up something that felt like in line with my natural taste or like my ambitions of what I hope to do, which was really just go on adventures, you know, it felt like a movie that was an adventure.
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I love that point about whoa, you can do a movie like that.
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Like I think sometimes our like the aperture of creative possibilities that we have in whatever medium you're working whether it's painting, writing, film making, it's like artificially narrow and sometimes you just need someone to give you the permission or show you the vista that was there the entire time >> that you just hadn't seen and all of a sudden it just unlocks this expansive realm of possibility. >> Yeah.
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And it even goes back to like how are you to your first question about like what are you consuming and all that.
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It's like how do you remain a student?
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And we were talking before we started recording, we were talking about like >> different art exhibitions and things like that.
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like that. And I remember seeing one on um uh a Picasso exhibition and it was in not a famous museum and so they didn't have a lot of his famous work and it was just this exhibition of all this like stuff that he made from construction
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paper and things that he glued together and doodles and all this stuff that he was just making at the coffee like at the like over coffee in the morning or at the breakfast table or whatever that never maybe he thought was going to see the light of day. But it was just he was
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But it was just he was always trying things and always like creating and and I think there's something to that of you know I don't know just keeping yourself childlike as an artist and not getting too rigid.
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Um and that can open up you know you can bring that into whatever medium you work in.
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Um that can open up new avenues for you. Mhm.
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Can you tell me the story that you shared right before recording of as you were thinking through that shot with the log on the ground with the lens flare and you thought of the the scene from a movie that you had seen?
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>> Yeah, we had um Adula Velos uh cinematographer >> who did such a good job.
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>> He's a cinematographer on Train Dreams.
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Also, we shot Jockey together and he is uh he's a genius. He's a sweet guy.
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Um, and uh, uh, you know, I don't want him to get too big of a head, but he is a genius. >> Didn't do that well. Didn't do that well.
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>> Um, and yeah, we were always looking for ways early on.
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We knew we were going into it in a way into the film and shooting train Dreams.
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We didn't have a lot of money.
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It was an independent film and we knew there was there were going to be a lot of cases where we wouldn't have enough like a lot of extras in the backgrounds or things like that, you know, like to fill out a frame.
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And so we were constantly thinking of ways to how do you construct a frame that not doesn't feel busy but feels considered and and and and doesn't feel um feels empty when it should be empty and and not when it shouldn't be, right?
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And this was one of those instances where we were out on uh no without spoiling it like there's a time where Joel Edertton character Joel Edertton's character Grineer is is like rebuilding something and he's and he's uh he's out on this like burnt acre.
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We were shooting in an actual forest that had been destroyed by a forest fire.
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And so it's just this like ashen pit with a bunch of dead trees in it.
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And we were setting up this frame.
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Joel is chopping on a tree on the ground.
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It's already beautiful because like the way Adulto's shooting, it's back lit with the sun.
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All this ash and dust is kicking up.
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Um, but it just felt a bit empty.
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And we had uh one of the frames we had looked at was there's a shot from it's a it's a fairly famous shot u but from Ivan's childhood which is Tarovski's first film where the boy Ivan is like surrounded by all this these like ruined some sort of ruined structure and it's just this very jagged all these jagged um like boards kind of framing him out.
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And we thought about that shot and and then Adulo just found a long burnt stick on the ground that had like a curve in it and set it on the ground between camera and Joel and then put the camera down low.
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And that just there was something about the shape of that stick within the frame that just made the whole thing click together and and somehow like spoke to also what the character is going through in that moment.
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how he's kind of hemmed in by by his grief um and and by the literal like you know aspect of this forest that's burnt.
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Um, and it's one of those that you don't think, it's funny cuz you brought it up because you're like, "Oh, I love that frame."
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And and I would never maybe pull that frame if I was like, "Oh, let's talk about this." But you never know what.
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And it's just something that we were inventing on the fly to like solve a problem that we felt, which was this frame doesn't feel good enough, you know?
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Um, and that's a really it's just a really beautiful part of the whole creative process, I think. Yeah.
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Tell me about your guys work together and we'll talk about the mission statement that you guys wrote early on. And you know what? Let's start there.
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Let's talk about the mission statement.
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I never heard of something like that. Well, it's funny.
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You know, I I was a um I was a business major in college.
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I studied accounting and then I became and then I became an accounting dropout when I discovered film making.
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Um but as we you know were setting out into this career of making films you know and we had met really right at the beginning of our journeys I was like we need a business plan for our careers you know because that's what you do in business school if you're going to start a new company you ch you have this sort
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of charting document and there was all a bunch of nonsense in there market research and this and that and and yet the thing >> sounds like >> uh and and and within it So the this notion of a of a mission statement uh you know for a career we hope to have and what it could stand for which was to tell stories of human connection in impossible places. And it's funny how ageless it was you
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And it's funny how ageless it was you know like that was over 15 years ago.
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I don't know exactly how long Clint and I have been working together so we just say over 15 years ago.
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Um, but over 15 years ago, we wrote that down and it was an instinct then and I think more uh it becomes more vital with time the longer we've we've worked.
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So like as you're thinking through train dreams and the story and the the sense of possibility of what it can be and then no that's not what it's going to be.
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How does that mission statement inform what you write and the shape and structure of the movie? >> I don't know.
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I don't think that it's not a conscious thing to be at least speaking personally.
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Like it's not a conscious thing in terms of that.
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Um it's more of just like if your mission as a human is like I want to I want to be a good person, >> right?
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>> And I want to I want to make other people's lives better when I can, right?
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Then when you go to a coffee shop, even in that moment when you're interacting with this person, you're probably not going to be an right?
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But it's not a maybe it's not a cautious thing that's like limiting your >> um limiting that.
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And so you know I think like that stories of human like human connection in impossible places those impossible places can be in the case of singing a maximum security prison this this like clearly very awful place in this situation.
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Um it's more just like time you know and the and the the heaviness of time. >> Yeah.
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uh uh you know a a rapidly industrializing capitalist society that that's um that grinds out its workers into nothing, you know, like things like that that like I think glancingly come together, but I >> I don't I'm at least I'm at least not thinking about it in like, okay, does this scene fit that or not in the writing?
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Once you get into that space, then it's just like how do you tell the story?
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story? Yeah, I think like from the I would apply it and think about this project of want a filter as work comes to you know and as you gain some success more and more comes it's it's hard to discern >> in what form different >> opportunities projects you know script
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you know and and even your own ideas that you're generating if you can do anything you know like as you gain success like you have opportunity and the challenge becomes like well what's me what's the right film, what's the right choice, you know, what should Clint's next movie be? And so having uh,
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And so having uh, you know, a vision and and more specifically like an applicable mission in terms of the work helps you, >> you know, see the forest through the trees, you know, in terms of what to do and and and choices to make.
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So it's it's very helpful to engage on a project and then as you're as you're doing it, I think it's just a great reminder, you know, as you Yeah.
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like the world of logging and in that period of time is very brutal and and and people were brutal to each other.
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And so how do you fight against cynicism, you know, as you're writing and how do you find like we always talk about where's the light?
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And and if there is light, even if it's a glimmer at times, you can you can endure in in storytelling really hard And so it's that that counterbalance and finding that optimism within the work um is just always like a great, you know, signpost that you can look to. >> Yeah.
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So as you're thinking through what the film's going to be, you read the book, how do you go from I found this novella to a script, choosing what to include, choosing what not to include?
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Cuz >> I watched the movie, I read the book. >> Yeah. Yeah.
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Then I watched the movie again and you know the ending's different, the um the relationship with the daughter is different.
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There's a lot of things that change.
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So how do you think about what to keep, what to take away, when to be faithful to the original text, when not to be faithful.
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I felt that like with this one particularly, we like we had to follow this rule of like being very true to the spirit of the book, but then letting the rest go and and and just being open with it and not like, you know, you can't
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there's no point in adapting this novella if you're going to make it, you know, all of a sudden into a thriller or something and take it in a completely different tonal direction or or change Grineer as a person or something like that. And I think this is the thing of
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And I think this is the thing of like you're translating um you're translating to another medium that has a completely different set of rules and a completely different set of how things work, you know, um and what can work and how.
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And so it's a bit like I don't know going swimming like we operate very differently just in how we move through the world walking around here versus like jumping in the water all of a sudden. >> Yeah.
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And so, um, there were things again, it was just like trial and error.
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There were things that like there's a great story in the book, a great section where a guy Grineer's taking this guy to town who's been shot and he says he's been shot by his dog, right? >> Oh, yeah. Yeah. Like, what is this?
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>> We were like, that's in the Yeah, that's in the movie. No, no questions asked.
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And And then we just transcribed it, you know, from the book, threw it in there, and we're like, it's perfect. It's great.
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And then slowly it was like, okay, well, it it needs to cut down a little bit because it doesn't make sense into how the narrative has developed into the movie.
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Um, and then all of a sudden it like it was like it doesn't fit anymore >> and it and and and putting this maybe like translated version doesn't work anymore and it's lost the point of of it from the book.
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And it's not like it's just about listening to the work and what it wants to be.
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>> I think that's a key point. You listen to the work.
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And it's funny cuz if you're not a creator, you're like, "What are you talking about?"
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But if you are a creator, you're like, "No, the work just comes to first it whispers, then it talks, then it screams and it has its own sense of what it wants."
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>> I think to make departure is a certain point.
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It's a, you know, something we always talk about like earning your credibility into the storytelling.
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credibility into the storytelling. And I think you have to really particularly with this work adapting this novella that's very ch you know it's very beloved and and and it's it's a very important book to Clint and so first is
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starting with like care you know really caring to try and honor it and then you've got to really try to understand it in in its essence and then you you you have to go on your own journey with it and get sort of what's underneath the words, what's in between them, that's beyond it. And you know, we set out, you
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And you know, we set out, you know, and I'm sure we'll talk about at some point, but a journey to where it's set, you know, and had our own adventures into that world.
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adventures into that world. And with with that with that steady process of first like a deep investigation in the text itself and then kind of our own inquiries into the place and time and the history books of loggers and and journals from US Forest Service rangers
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and then being out in the field ourselves, you finally feel equipped to chart, you know, you know, how does this translate to the screen in all the ways that Clint was just was just saying, you know, Oh, you're talking about sense of place and Harry Potter. You can't divorce Harry
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You can't divorce Harry and Hermione from Hogwarts, right?
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Lord of the Rings beginning.
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You can't divorce that from the Shire.
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And Sense of Place is such a character in all these great stories.
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And you guys seem like you were so conscious and deliberate about building a relationship with that place, maybe even before the story itself began to unfold. Is that right? >> Yeah.
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And part of that is like what Greg is was Greg always has a great way of like phrasing things that I'll take like uh a paragraph.
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>> It's happened like four times already.
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These little nuggets are like I want to throw that right back in.
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It's a good catchphrase and I think that's outside of like getting deeper into that one thing is like as an artist you're trying to give something fresh, give your world or this story or whatever it is from your lens and through your lens, right? >> Yeah. >> And Dennis, Mr.
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>> And Dennis, Mr. Johnson who he never had the like the honor to meet but like clearly in this book even though it's only 117 pages you can feel the research you can feel that he knows this world of logging is giving you something even in
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if it's just glancing sentences like they use sap to to put on their hands to to like repair their wounds you know things like that >> that like that's from deep research and if you're making a movie and you're making a film and you're adapting this thing I want give something fresh to it. We want to give something fresh to it as
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We want to give something fresh to it as writers.
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Y >> and so yes, we went into the place.
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Part of that is just like soaking up every logging book and and being like we're both research hounds and like reading every logging book you can find, like >> reading every weird book about the location that you can find, reading journals from people who lived in that time, >> but then nothing's going to like um uh take the place of just like on the ground like research, you know.
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ground like research, you know. I suspect and we never actually heard this, you know, because we didn't get a chance to meet him, but maybe why this was such a match for Clint as a film make material and filmmaker was I sense that that Dennis because he lived in Bonner's Ferry, Idaho for much of the
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end of his life with his wife uh on the Moyet River, which is in which is in the nolla that there was the place was the seed, you know, and the story emerged from and this love of place, you know, and there's a lot of writers that will have an idea and they're looking for a place to transplant it onto. But I think as a,
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But I think as a, you know, a big driver for us as filmmakers is >> interesting >> to have um, you know, one thing we always say is we build stories from the dirt up that we >> come into a place and try to listen to the people and the place itself first and allow the story to kind of come from those experiences. And I don't know.
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I I'm I'd put some money on it.
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I think I think Dennis may have operated that way. Who who knows?
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You know, we never got to hear ourselves, but that's probably part of why it feels so lived in.
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So, how do you guys do that?
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You go out there, obviously.
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What do you you you walk around?
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>> We we always try and like now especially like uh I'll tell you specifically how this one was done and that'll give kind of an example of what what we do.
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We found a cabin that we could stay in and write in that was on the river close to where Dennis had lived and and on the river where the story is set and where Dennis had lived.
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We found a um a naturalist from that area who had written a few books about the natural history of the area. >> Oh, cool.
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We paid him to take us out for a day and just show us different trees, talk about glaciation and what that did to the area, do all this.
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And then we would just go at night and just go into these like bars and these logging towns and you just hang out and then, you know, find somebody to start talking to.
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And sometimes it's just like it goes nowhere.
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You get, you know, you just have a nice conversation.
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And then sometimes you meet in the case of this somebody from the Coupney tribe who is uh working at a fish hatchery trying to reintroduce these sturgeon that have been this area for 350,000 years, you know, or whatever.
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And and but had been overfished to the point where they were almost extinct and now they're trying to put them back in the river.
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And just all these little things that you could never you could never find that in a book.
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You you could also never say I'm going to a bar to meet that person, right?
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>> It's going to teach me this.
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That is going to wind up influencing the character of Ignatius Jack in the film and is going to give this image of this 10-ft long fish hanging from a pole in the beginning of the fil. >> Yeah.
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I mean, the word that comes to mind for me is just the texture.
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Like when something feels alive, it feels real.
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There's a texture of reality that can only come through doing something like that, >> you know?
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Given that we were adapting this work, you know, anytime we were in the car out in that world, we were listening to the audio book of Train Dreams narrated by Will Patton, who now narrates the film, and it would recontextualize. >> What a voice. >> Oh, yeah. >> Yeah.
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And it would it would it would just open up and recontextualize things that we had read over and over again in in the actual, you know, text on paper.
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And you know, then you know, you'd go up to, you know, up on a mountain range covered in snow, like a a stand of old growth trees, and you'd step in there and the the air would shift and and you'd feel, you know, that you were in a deeply spiritual place.
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deeply spiritual place. Or then we'd be driving at night and there'd be a giant like control burn and you felt like the immense power uh you know of it even in this contained you know setting and you could just that could take you to the
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imagination of what the fire that takes place in Nolla um could have looked like and felt like and so all of this like as you're saying collected together you know became such a and we finished actually we finished the first draft there well yeah there Oh wow. >> Looking out over that looking out over
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>> Looking out over that looking out over that river and we had a big snowfall and there was like trains running through at night and um and and so we were riding high on finishing the draft but then we read it as we left.
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>> We got work to do deeply depressed.
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>> We got a lot of work to do. >> Have a nice weekend. >> It's Monday.
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>> So then what do you do?
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You go from shitty first draft to then >> but you got to get that shitty first you got to get the clay on the table. Yeah.
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>> And you got to get the shape of the face.
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And then that's the thing uh I learned the most about screenwriting at one point from uh building some cabinets in my house >> really.
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>> Um during the pandemic we all started doing you know had our little hobbies and my wife and I were in this rental place but we're like you know we've always wanted these like built-in bookshelves and we're going to do it.
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And so we found this thing, you buy IKEA shelves and then you start framing them out and you build this frame and it looks terrible, but you get them in there and then you get the you get them up on their frames and then you start like, you know, you put some molding around it and you start and then you paint it and it still looks bad and so you put some trim around it, it still looks bad.
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And you know, you like keep working at it until it gets to a place >> where it looks good.
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And there's always a little bit of, you know, you can always use little hacks like putting trim on the outside to or crown molding on something to like >> I think it was the founder of uh Rolls-Royce was once asked how he made Rolls-Royce and he said something to the effect of, "I just looked at a normal car and I said, "How do I make every single thing better >> and you just do it over and over and over and over again?"
25:02
And there's something to that.
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Like, you know, there's a version of something being great.
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Oh, I had this grand vision. Woke up in a dream.
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And then there's another version of I just took that scene and I found 74 ways to improve it.
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>> And it was the 74th one that finally brought it all together or just the culmination of those 74 things that gave it that sense of quality.
25:25
it that sense of quality. I mean it's a cor correlary to professional athletes too of just like consistency of del of showing up and being able to deliver you know at a high level um through an an insane amount of preparation you know but I think with with respect to writing
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you know it's it is a thing that I think makes Clint worldass artist and has taught me a lot is the not settling you know and all this belief that there is a better moment or a line and to keep digging and to keep like questioning it and literally until you get to that. For
26:02
For Clint's sake, it was like couple days before Sundance, you know, but just until you have to put the pencil down, but like I don't I don't know.
26:14
I think you would probably still be editing Train Dreams if you were allowed to.
26:19
I watched it the other night because we did a live score event and the tragedy of it is like there was this scene or this thing that I wanted to put in there that I never knew how and then and I just we were never able to figure it out and I was watching it the other night.
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I was like I understand how to do it now and we have the material. I like >> but it's fine. You got to leave it.
26:40
You don't need to go like somebody I forget where I heard this but uh uh somebody talked about like you don't want to like once the painting's up in the museum you don't want to go back and like start touching it up like let it be.
26:52
It is a thing that has shaped our partnership of like I would probably shoot something I wrote on a napkin today you know and and and Clint helps me see the beyond and the refi and see how great it could be.
27:10
It's a good idea, but it could be a great moment, you know, if you worked on it.
27:13
But I think with But I think with Clint, >> I can help him, you know, push it out, you know, push it out and like >> So, I'm exactly like you.
27:20
I'm I'm I'm like, "Come on, here. Here's the idea. Let's do it. Let's shoot it. Come on. Let's go."
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And then I work with a creative director named Tommy who's just like you, who's like, "Dude, >> we got to push. We got to stop it. We got to push. We got to push."
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And he just has this unbelievable patience.
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And then you get to the end, you're like, "Dang it, you are so right about this."
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Like patience, this sort of deliberate patience and to insist on better and better and better and better.
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It's I need a partner to do that.
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I can't do that on my own.
27:52
Well, and the thing on the flip side like I never thought about I studied I started as a like a fiction writer studying that and and being very enamored with the words on the page and the sound of the words and and where do you break a paragraph and things like that?
28:08
How do you how do you break to the next paragraph?
28:10
What I never thought of until I met Greg was like are you telling a story or not, you know?
28:15
Um, and this very like this more structural thing that now I think is like actually the foundational element and the rest is is how how you're getting that out there.
28:30
Um, but that thing that just like whatever it is that connects train dreams to sing sing to a cave painting or or an oral poem, you know, from like a like from from ancient times of like what is that thing that you're trying to communicate?
28:47
There's all the fun stuff which is how and how do we get that shot and how does this edit like get us from this shot to the next and oh, wasn't that like beautiful that we seated this idea earlier with an image? Oh, that's great.
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But getting back to that foundational element, that's what I learned very deeply from Greg was like telling a story, you know, and then and then it all kind of coming out from there.
29:10
And that story can be like as simple as a guy is driving a taxi and eventually kind of goes nuts, >> right? >> Okay.
29:18
So, we're talking about how do you get your writing done?
29:19
And if you're thinking about work and how you can be more productive there, well, I recommend a tool called Base Camp.
29:25
Basecamp is a project management tool and it's different from the other ones which are loud and noisy and cluttered. They have feature bloat.
29:33
Basec camp says no no no no.
29:34
We're going to keep things simple so that you can focus on what actually matters which is just getting the work done.
29:40
You know now for us Base Camp is a place where we can track what we're doing with how I write when episodes are being recorded where we're recording them.
29:47
The publishing day all those sorts of things in one place for our entire team to look at.
29:51
And I had the founder of Base Camp, Jason Freed.
29:53
He came on the show and I noticed that he really cares about writing.
29:58
He cares about manifestos.
29:59
He cares about great copy.
30:01
He cares about telling a great story.
30:03
And him and his co-founder, they've written five books.
30:05
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30:11
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30:15
How can I make my team more cohesive?
30:17
Well, then I recommend Base Camp.
30:19
All right, back to the episode.
30:24
You know, my sense is if you looked at the number of words in various screenplays, train Dreams would be all the way to the left side in terms of there's not that many words in the film, but then there are these moments when you really try to say something, right?
30:44
Like what's the preacher in the pulpit line in the movie? A hermit in the woods.
30:48
Like a preacher >> The world needs a hermit in the woods as much as a preacher in the pulpit. >> Yeah. Like you hear that? Okay. Boom.
30:54
But this one really stuck with me.
30:55
>> That's from straight from the words of Dennis Johnson.
30:58
>> And I think this one is too. You'll let me know.
31:00
This world is intricately stitched together. >> Get it, boys.
31:05
Every thread we pull, we know not how it affects the design of things.
31:10
We're but children on this earth pulling bolts out of a ferris wheel, thinking ourselves to be gods. >> That's CL. >> You wrote that? Hell yeah, dude. There we go.
31:21
But that that's like that's part of that earning the credibility thing.
31:23
I think you like one, he's such a brilliant writer, but two, you were just so deeply channeled into the essence, you know, that you wouldn't necessarily know the difference between Dennis and and Clint's words.
31:40
>> And that's the that's the idea that that like >> even in our work that we're trying to get to, this was a big thing on Jockey.
31:48
This is a big thing I think for Greg as well on sing is um there's a lot of care put into the writing and and making a like having a line like that like you know that took 45 times of like going through that like what kind of if they're pulling bolts out of something what kind of machine would they say at that time that would make sense but also kind of make sense for us. Right. Right. little stuff like that.
32:13
Or what metaphor do you use to to get across this sense of like what we are, which is a bunch of idiots having this like this this system that we have no idea how it works and we're just like why don't we just straighten out this river and put a dam in it?
32:26
Who knows what'll happen, you know, like um and so how do you find a metaphor that armed peoples would say that Joel Joel's character Grineer would never be able to say that, right?
32:35
he would never be able to construct that sentence or that maybe he would have the idea.
32:38
But like all that to say like this trying to get to this place where there have been other things about the film that people think there's a lot of improv that we that we do and a lot of times we'll at times throw the scene out.
32:52
What do >> you mean improv? What do you mean improv?
32:55
>> Improv of just like um letting the actors like like setting up a scene in this film.
33:00
There are multiple times where it's just like, "All right, we've got some chickens and Joel and Felicity are now gonna feed the chickens.
33:05
Let's see what happens, you know, and then giving them that comes from like a documentary background of like setting something up a space and then kind of adjusting it into something that feels considered and then you always have the edit.
33:20
So, you just get a bunch of stuff and then you have the edit to like actually shape something that feels considered.
33:25
But you want to get to a space where when the viewer's watching it or when they're reading something as a as a screenplay or a piece of fiction or whatever, they don't know what was made up on the day and they don't know what was written six years earlier, right?
33:37
Or two years earlier, whatever it is.
33:39
And um and you there's no there's no difference in feeling between something that was very considered like this kid throwing a cup of like a cup into a river.
33:55
It was an image that I wanted from very early on that we put in the script and like now how do you get it to feel like the kid just threw the cup in the river kind of on accident?
34:04
Then Joel's like, "Oh, what are you doing?"
34:06
>> I love the way he responds to it.
34:06
that that that really moved me when I watched it last night.
34:11
Like it was a very fatherly >> thing to do.
34:14
It's very loving but also just like what'd you do that for?
34:18
>> But it's so sweet and that was very considered to like stepping back something that like a line that people love and have really connected to which is when the pilot when they're about to start all the stuff of like going up and down the pilot's like you better hold on to something.
34:32
to something. That's something that's really like people really glombmed onto that line as some sort of like thematic >> um I don't know like like >> yeah for the film and that's something that the pilot said on the day that pilot she's a real pilot she's her name's Amelia she's never acted before and there was a different line in there
34:53
for that moment and it was kind of awkward and I was like how would you if you were about to do this with take this guy up and like give him a fun time like what would you say and she's like I would say this and and they like but there's no you don't want the viewer to feel any difference when they're or the reader if it's a screenplay or whatever. >> The best part of improv too is that as
35:11
>> The best part of improv too is that as writers we get to take credit for it.
35:19
>> Wow, that was a great idea.
35:22
When you think about a main character and giving that main character establishing the sense of connection, making us want to root for the main character.
35:31
Um, there's a few differences between the book and the movie in terms of almost the morals of the main character that kind of go back to a killing that's early in the movie.
35:40
And how do you think about do you want the main character to be loved?
35:47
Do you want us to root for the main character?
35:49
When don't you like what if we don't like the main character?
35:53
What really matters as you're shaping that?
35:58
With this one in particular, I think it's funny what you're referring to with the the guy getting thrown off the bridge and um the intention of that was and and the intention in the scene is that he helps for a moment.
36:12
He gets swept up in like helping do this thing, right?
36:16
And then he gets kicked away and and but he gets swept up in this violence in a thing that he doesn't condone and feels very sickened by and then that haunts him, right? >> Yeah.
36:26
That's something that like in screenwriting 101 you would never do that, right?
36:31
You were told to never do that.
36:33
Never have a character try and murder somebody who's innocent in the beginning of the film.
36:37
Try and help other people murder somebody in the beginning of a film, right?
36:40
Um for no reason at all and and just get swept up in something like that.
36:46
You were told to do the opposite.
36:48
You also are told to like not have a passive main character um who's just kind of like life's just kind of happening to him.
36:56
Um you're told probably not to have like a quiet main character who doesn't say a lot over the course of the film and all these things.
37:04
But like that was the that was the character in the book where he's this like he's feeling a lot of things.
37:12
He's thinking a lot of things but not in ways he can necessarily understand.
37:18
Um even a lot of times in the movie I noticed that he'll whenever he learns something other people are like yeah and he'll be like oh really I think there's three times in the movie where he kind of didn't know this thing and it wasn't
37:34
like everyone should have known that but you get the sense that he just doesn't know that much but also it's very deep right >> there's also an aspect I think with a lot of movies we've done there's sort of become known in many ways because of their central performances. And I if I've tried to analyze it, I
37:54
And I if I've tried to analyze it, I would say is cuz we really try to fuse work to to the artist and allow for them to what we always say like empty the tank finally and like you know bring all that they have as a person.
38:10
And so Joel, you know, the way he kind of moves through the world and like and and like his spirit, I think, kind of fused into this character, too.
38:22
And uh and it's something we're always listening to and we're always refining and and sharpening a script so that it it becomes the clothes that they can put on to to be most truthful.
38:34
And so it's it's part Grineer, but it's also kind of like trying to listen to things that we can kind of surface from from his essence, too. >> Yeah.
38:44
You talk about the spirit.
38:44
So I uh you know, pretty outgoing guy, outgoing enough.
38:48
And uh I uh had just left the theater and I walk over to a bar down the street.
38:54
It was a sort of bar, coffee shop type thing.
38:57
>> And uh it was probably 9:30, snow in the streets.
38:59
And uh you know, these two very good-looking girls walk up to me.
39:04
They're like, "Hey, you know, how's your night going?"
39:05
And usually I'd be like, "All right, what's going on?"
39:06
And I was like, I I I >> just can you guys just like stay over there and just watch this movie?
39:15
>> Uh it like >> very sort of melancholy.
39:17
And it was crazy cuz like I just had this sort of very gloomy spirit for the next few days. It was wonderful.
39:24
It was just like feeling the feeling the weight of what he went through and um and and and all that.
39:36
And that's what I liked about, you know, someone said something to me that there's a scene later on where Griner meets a girl and in a very Hollywood movie, you know, maybe they, you know, fall in love or something like that and like, >> no, you know, >> no, it's just that's the movie.
39:50
That's that's that's what it's about. >> And that's life.
39:57
Just like the story you just told, right?
39:58
If I were like telling that in a very Hollywood movie, it wouldn't have that story that you just told about what happened at the bar would not have gone that way, >> which is like where you thought about this movie and and all of that.
40:07
And that went back to kind of a central premise of um of the movie itself and and of the story was treating real life as cinematically as as any like movie plot normally is, right?
40:32
Like for example, it's really exciting to see a heist in a movie or a battle or something like that.
40:39
But trying to treat like trying to treat something that is monumental for us like falling in love or um or like uh just feeling peaceful with the family or with a friend one day or this very resonant feeling of like when you walk out of a movie or read a book that changes you and you just kind of want to sit in that feeling.
40:59
like translating that to film in a way without overdoing it.
41:04
>> Without overdoing it, that's a very key point.
41:06
You use the word schmaltzy. >> Schmaltzy.
41:08
I don't know if that's a real word or not, but >> okay.
41:13
>> Um, but just trying to like >> Sounds a Yiddish.
41:16
uh not like I I don't know like not overdo it but give it the resonance and the and the and the like the depth and the respect that that moment deserves.
41:33
So going back to you at the bar.
41:33
So they I think maybe they were more into you because you were brooding.
41:38
So Train Dreams maybe like put this glow on you.
41:43
>> Give me a spirit of attraction, you know?
41:46
I just, you know, I said this to you, I the first time I watched it, I had small tears as I watched the movie, especially early on with the sweetness and um I remember just gripping the side of my chair.
42:05
Little did he know that he would remember these moments, these years as some of the best of his life.
42:11
>> And I got to watch it last night on Netflix, so then I could stop it.
42:13
That was about minute 36. >> Okay.
42:17
>> And then the payoff of you know what comes from that it's about I 8 12 minutes later.
42:21
And then last night I didn't have any tears as I watched it until the end and then we got the Nick Cave song in the credits and it was the Hoover Dam had just collapsed and it was and I last night I mean it was I don't know it must have been 1 in the morning and I was just balling like a little girl and it was just just feeling like this melancholy a certain kind of sad sadness, um, glooiness, but it was it was wonderful.
42:56
It felt very sort of therapeutic and peaceful.
42:57
And I want to get back to that point about not overdoing it because the word that's coming is that what I the sort of tears last night were these sort of subtle feelings >> of sadness and glooiness and not this sort of intense >> despair.
43:19
Um, and sometimes in just the hustle and bustle of life, you kind of skip over those more subtle emotions. >> Yeah.
43:27
And it's easy to, it's also easy to skip over them even when you're making a film and when you're constructing it and trying to think about a way to lead the audience to a place and communicate something without manipulating them, right?
43:41
you are inherently we're manipulating them whether you're again whether you're writing a book or whether you're painting something and you're trying to show them this like you know landscape from through your eyes or whatever or through editing um there is inherent manipulation but trying not to be dishonest about it I don't know even the way to the best way to articulate it there's also something very interesting that like I don't understand it.
44:13
But about this medium um that's very like I feel like there's still like infinite possibilities with this medium where like you do all this stuff and you put this thing together and something else is created.
44:27
Like I we talked about it a lot like at the end like toward through the edit and trying to figure out the ending >> and I was like I guess this just won't be like a film that really like affects people deeply emotionally, you know, like it'll be like an interesting film but like they probably won't be crying from it and like that's fine.
44:48
Maybe that's just what it needs to be.
44:49
Um and it's been very interesting that that's not the case.
44:53
Um, but but yeah, there's something and and and and even with you, like I've had heard this from a couple of different people where they like see it and they they see it one way and they see it a little bit later and watch it again and get something very different from it.
45:08
Now, I haven't changed the film in the two times that you saw it, right?
45:12
>> But you've changed and then something changes in between you and this piece of work that you're that you're interacting with that's like very I don't know.
45:19
It's hard to talk about it without getting into like kind of a woo woo mystical kind of place.
45:25
Um >> that door is open if we want to go there, you know.
45:29
>> Well, no, but you can't words break down.
45:31
It's like having having a religious experience and then what do you say and so then we create a metaphor for it of like it is like this and I experience, you know, like the the you can't really articulate what it is.
45:42
You just have to experience it.
45:47
Well, to your point with I was at a film screening recently and the director got up at the beginning and was joking, but I thought was joking in the most true way.
45:57
She said, "It has been my dream to get a bunch of friends and family in a room and make them all sit in a room and watch the thing I've made like locking them in their chairs."
46:06
And I think directors and architects are very similar in this way of like I mean man with directing you are creating a world.
46:13
You got the writing, you got the visuals, you got the sound, you got 363 other things and it is this sort of consilience of different art forms that that that comes together. >> Yeah.
46:25
No, I do think it is the greatest artistic collaboration that exists.
46:28
You know, it takes the visual medium, the written medium, music, art in terms of design, you know, and brings that all together to tell one story.
46:43
And you know, one of the things we've always talked about as we've grown up as artists is how do you define success as a director?
46:49
And you know, at least personally speaking, like there are times when you know, something only meets your vision and you are harnessing like this whole group of artists together and that have sensibilities and their own tastes and all that.
47:06
And so if it just meets the vision, I actually don't really see that as success.
47:08
It's like can it expand beyond the vision, you know, and show us something that surprises you that still feels true to, you know, the intention but is revoly, you know.
47:21
So, I I'm always after that in my collaborations with actors or u cinematographers of like here's the idea I'm starting with, but what else is there?
47:30
Like, what's underneath it? What's beyond it?
47:33
>> Does the word ambition ring a bell in what you're saying or is it something different? >> Sure.
47:38
I mean, just because I'm a very ambitious person.
47:42
>> Well, I thought I saw something.
47:42
I thought I saw something from your first film or something like >> it was you guys were talking about ambition in your first film to like really go for it. What was that? What was that? >> Yeah. Yeah.
47:52
I I do think you know there's an inclination to especially with first films to work within your means.
48:02
You know, basically I have this house for free.
48:04
So, we're gonna make a movie in the house because we have it for free.
48:08
Versus having an an idea that that it feels like you're reaching that scares you a little bit.
48:15
It's like I don't know how the we're going to pull this off and yet um we still only have this finite amount of money, but with this money, we have to do this thing.
48:25
And something about the reach of it, um you know, can can push something to maybe be able to break through the noise.
48:33
You know, I I do think locations can do that for you that like a lot of our films have been set in in places that are priceless and so they you feel scale and it allows you to then do maybe more intimate work within something because you're operating in such a grand environment.
48:52
When you're writing, thinking through the early stages of a love story, >> what matters in order to make that story feel real?
49:04
Because this comes back to that theme of not having it be so over the top, having it feel pure and true with a love story in particular.
49:16
I think it's the same as any friendship or any anything you're trying to get.
49:18
I mean, I don't know, not to get too much in the weeds, but like it's like what is the love story you're telling?
49:25
the love story you're telling? Am I showing you a like couple that's been together four years and I'm trying to show you that love story in a film or am I showing you this couple who's I'm you're seeing them meet >> going love >> and I'm and and I'm and I'm just the whole film is about that of the first
49:42
three months which is the most like chaotic and beautiful and wonderful da da but then doesn't have some of that resonance that comes later or like this one this one was a was a with Glattis and Grineer Like it was really important to make it feel to feel their love but also feel the depth of their connection to each other. Yeah. You know Yeah.
50:05
You know >> and and to get those two things across that they are totally enamored with each other where like you see that that time early on where you just can't keep your hands off of each other, right?
50:15
>> But then you also see the time later where you're like arguing over money over the dinner table.
50:19
And that doesn't mean you don't love each other, of course, right?
50:22
Uh, but that's like all the varieties of a relationship.
50:26
>> But even that, I I I I watched that last night.
50:27
I thought about that that had this sort of loving sharpness, >> of course, because like they're not like And that's the thing I think it's kind of like a bummer to see.
50:35
Uh, and it's a bit of a cynical thing where it's like I was thinking about this when I saw Bardau that came out a few years ago and that relationship between this married couple just feels so deep and resonant and I was like, "Oh, I've been craving this.
50:50
I haven't seen I didn't even realize I hadn't seen something like this in a long time, you know, in in modern film because most relationship things about relationships are like kind of cynical and like they hate each other and their marriage is falling apart da da and it's like and so yeah, like my wife and I argue over money and things like that, right?
51:09
But like but it's it's there's it doesn't mean we don't like each other, you know?
51:14
We still like each other and love each other very much.
51:16
Um, but we're human beings and we get in arguments and we get in disagreements over things.
51:21
And so that one, this one was like it was about calibrating it to where it didn't feel too much one way or the other.
51:29
And there were things in the edit that we shot that were in the early early cuts of the film that made it feel too like there were too many barbs between them and there was one too many arguments given the real estate that you you don't we don't have a lot of time with them, >> right, >> before what happens happens.
51:44
Um, and so like it at first like when when I was getting feedback along the way, people were like, "Well, they don't even hate they don't even like each other, you know, or it then went the other direction where it was too light and airy and too sweet and it didn't feel like a real relationship."
52:02
>> And so I don't know if I even answered your question, but it's about calibration along the way if you want to make something feel real. >> Feedback.
52:10
How do you go about getting feedback at different stages of making a film?
52:14
like feedback in the scripting.
52:16
>> We have different answers on this.
52:18
>> I've evolved >> at the beginning.
52:23
I admittedly we get very emotional, defensive, and and just I'm a heart on a sleeve type of person.
52:31
And so, you know, the beautiful when that's working well, it's like your heart forward and and there's a lot of passion.
52:38
And then the, you know, the negative side is is um you can take things too personally when people are really they're there in service of the thing you're trying to do, want to give you, want to help you.
52:51
>> Um, you know, now I think we probably are somewhat in a similar place now is that you get notes and it's like just try it, you know, just try it.
53:03
See what's there, you know?
53:05
And who you getting notes from?
53:05
Friends, family, collaborators?
53:06
depends on in the writing process.
53:09
We have like a pretty small think tank.
53:12
You know, there's there's one friend, Linda Halbert, who we've known for over a decade.
53:17
We've made a lot of movies together.
53:18
She's read almost every draft of everything we've ever written.
53:22
Um, and then it's just expanding that field slightly and then it's like who has to read it, you know, like financeers or, you know, producers or such.
53:31
producers or such. and and then you're navigating a somewhat delicate like power dynamic with feedback of like do I have to take this note you know uh how and so the person delivering it especially to artists like there's a way to do that that if they have the same spirit of just try it and we may be
53:52
wrong and we're like okay well then we'll try it and maybe you're right cool things can happen in that type of dynamic um but I I think sometimes it can go sideways when you know there's a lack of trust or that the you know whoever's giving the note is is like a mandate to an artist then then that gets kind of
54:14
you know then the porcupine things come up >> and it's good to have a com it's good to get a combination along the way of people who especially with the film speaking specifically to that but people who know what you're going for and getting their notes where they're Like I know from talking to you and from or
54:35
from knowing the book or whatever like or from being on set like what you're trying to do and this is not coming across alongside people who have no idea what what any of it is you know like friends who are just like what did you make your movie about and you're like well here we go. Um, and then they can like they can
54:49
Um, and then they can like they can get getting their feedback in different ways is really helpful too of it.
54:56
It just it's the closest to an audience you're going to get, right?
54:59
Of like what's working, what's not, what do you think is really not working that you need to be much more clear about that is totally coming across and you're like great.
55:09
Now we can pull this back a little bit.
55:11
>> Sometimes they don't even need to say a word either.
55:13
You can just watch them watch it. really knowing. Yeah.
55:16
>> You know, where it, you know, is a lean forward and and you and you can, you know, that they're feeling it and they're plugged in.
55:24
You know, when they're retreating, you know, you can feel the energy in in the room.
55:26
U but I think at a certain point with anything like you get whether it's an editor in the writing process where you don't have perspective anymore. >> Yep. >> Ain't that right?
55:38
>> And you and feedback is just shakes the tree, you know, if nothing else.
55:41
And often times like there someone may be raising their hand and pointing at something that is wrong or feels wrong and it is but it's it maybe the problem is actually much earlier in the script or the film you know and so the what and how to address it is not always directly aligned but it it can surface where the work needs to go.
56:02
Tell me about the piece of advice you guys got early on to beware of having too much dialogue and not to lean on that.
56:10
What was the thinking behind that?
56:12
>> Oh, it's a it was a mentor of ours and a good friend who gave us the advice.
56:16
He's a screenwriter and he gave us the advice to only use dialogue as a last resort.
56:24
Now, that didn't make any sense, you know, early on and it was only something I think we learned by doing.
56:28
Um, I remember there was a scene in Trans Pacos, the first film we wrote together that Greg directed.
56:36
And there was a scene where it's between Johnny Simmons and Gabriel Luna. They're in a truck.
56:44
There's a whole long dialogue sequence about what's going to happen next and what this one's worried about and what that one's trying to convince him to do.
56:50
And it was a good like a lot of good dialogue in there.
56:54
>> And then uh I don't remember if this happened in the in the shooting of it or in the edit. >> It was in the shoot. Yeah. onset.
57:01
>> That scene became one line and some looks between them and it was so much better than all this we had written, you know, >> and and that was that was a real lesson for both of us of of just trying to get to that place where your film is operating in a way where you're not having to say everything.
57:24
And again, that's where and going back to like what we started talking about with like silent cinema is like what's the what's the least you can do that's going to make your film that's going to give the most to the audience.
57:35
You know what's so funny as you say this.
57:36
So obviously Train Dreams embodies this, but then there's the scene where Art is just talking and talking and talking and talking and I was >> maybe it's something about the music, maybe it's something about whatever's going on.
57:50
kind of hard to follow him.
57:53
And I realized I'm actually not supposed to listen.
57:54
He's actually just spewing energy into the world, which is exactly the opposite. >> Yeah.
58:00
Which is like, and that and that line that you quoted earlier, >> like those will stick with you.
58:07
>> Well, later on he says, "It's all beautiful, ain't it?"
58:08
And it's just that one right line.
58:12
>> And if you've got that silence where the audience can can do their work.
58:14
Now, there's films like um like very dialogueheavy films or plays like you can't this doesn't apply to His Girl Friday, right?
58:24
>> I just watched Before Sunrise the whole thing >> that's not like that's a different beast and should be full of dialogue and that's the whole point of it, right?
58:34
>> And like and there's a musicality to that and a rhythm to it that like that works and you're you're you're locking into its own thing.
58:40
But this isn't that and this is a different um kind of approach.
58:45
approach. And um and for this, I think the more you can like get it to the place where the film's doing the talking, there was a great like great piece of voiceover that we wrote uh like that was like there's a scene where he's sitting
59:02
by a lakeside or Grineer sitting by a lakeside after he's like left logging and I was so proud of this voiceover that we had written and about like the deep history of the land and the glaciers and all this and we got to the in the edit room and that scene wasn't
59:17
working very well and our sound designer Lee Alivan who we've worked with quite a few times um I was like should we pull this voice over out it just it's not it's not like really connecting in the way that I hoped and it was like well listen it's some very good writing but
59:35
it's not a good scene and so you pick which one you want do you want the good writing or do you want a good scene and I was like yeah >> I do think in the iterative process of film making it's important And to us at least to write it, to overwrite it. Yeah. Sometimes because then it's still Yeah.
59:50
Sometimes because then it's still that's in the black and white.
59:53
It's one dimension that now you're going to have performance, you have camera, you have the setting, you have all these other things that that can then speak into what the scene's about.
1:00:02
And then you can kind of have the fluidity to throw it out, you know, or put it all into a look or else.
1:00:11
But we won't know what we're reaching for unless you put it there first, you know, and actually and actually wrote the whole thing in in in all of its, you know, excess.
1:00:20
Well, tell me about how you let the story guide you.
1:00:27
You know, like at what point, I would imagine you start off this idea of a story and then at some point we're talking about a little bit earlier where the story kind of takes on its own form >> and maybe it surprises you or something like that.
1:00:41
Is that what happens or what's that like?
1:00:46
Yeah, I think there's a good example of this.
1:00:48
Like you're trying to get to that place where where you're listening to the story and it's kind of moving of its own.
1:00:56
It's an odd thing to say, but it's like almost like you're finding it rather than you're creating it.
1:01:00
And and it's and and I'm sure you've had a lot of poets and writers and and everybody like say this much more eloquently than we will right now.
1:01:09
Um, but there's a good example of this from from the ending.
1:01:14
You mentioned the ending earlier of this film.
1:01:16
The ending of the book is one of the great endings that I've ever read in literature.
1:01:21
It's so fantastic and it's so perfect.
1:01:23
Um, it's kind of like this almost like gravity's rainbow level ending.
1:01:28
Um, and we totally thought that would be the ending of the book of the movie and wrote that in the script as the ending kind of verbatim.
1:01:39
you know, of like this wolf boy, this performance by this wolf boy >> and um and then it ends in the book where he says, "And it all went to black and that time was gone forever, right?"
1:01:53
And I was like, "Wow, what a perfect ending.
1:01:54
That's going to be the ending of the movie." We shot that.
1:01:55
We shot that whole thing.
1:01:58
Shot the plane sequence, which is currently the ending.
1:02:00
And it was a much like smaller little thing.
1:02:05
And then we started watching it down with our editor Parker Laramie and and everybody else and it was very clear that like oh the airplane sequence is the ending. The film just ended.
1:02:15
Now we've got all this we got 10 more minutes of stuff.
1:02:19
What do you do with that?
1:02:21
You know and so then it's a thing of like first you like him and haul over it for a minute and you're like well surely not you know.
1:02:27
Um but but then once once we leaned into it and said, "Okay, like this is the ending.
1:02:33
Now, how does that other stuff work into getting us like building up to that ending?"
1:02:40
Um and and then that plane sequence like then it was like, you know, 35 different versions of editing that plane sequence to get it to what it is now.
1:02:51
Um but it was an aspect of just like listening to that feeling and it was clear what the movie wanted and then you can either at your own uh you know to your own detriment you can listen to that or not.
1:03:06
Um and then it just became everything became so much more rich and so much deeper by building up into that.
1:03:11
Even the thing of like him looking at himself in the mirror and that yeah >> that was not originally in there, right?
1:03:19
That was again something that just like we found that theater, our production designer, Alex Scholler, went to the bathroom in the basement and came back up and to Adulo and I was like, hey, you've got to shoot something.
1:03:28
I don't care what it is, shoot something in this bathroom. It's amazing, you know.
1:03:32
>> And then that opened up this thing where like, well, what would you do with that?
1:03:36
Oh, he's not seeing himself in the he can now see the he's not seen himself in a mirror in a long time.
1:03:39
He can now see this hole of the years, blah blah blah.
1:03:43
Um, and so I think that's like an example to take it out of the clouds of just like it was a very iterative process of like listening to what the film wanted and then responding to that.
1:03:54
Then that opened up its own set of problems to solve and questions that then like okay well how does a wolf boy sequence even fit into that?
1:04:04
How does seeing the John Glenn in space fit into that?
1:04:06
So very simple question like with your original script let's say like we're done with it we're ready to move this to the next stage of development.
1:04:16
>> What percentage of that script ends up in the final movie?
1:04:23
>> Or maybe ask it the other way.
1:04:23
What percentage of the final movie you think are in the original script?
1:04:28
>> One interesting uh data point is that of the four films we've released, all four have a different ending than what we started shooting. Huh.
1:04:36
I don't know what to make of that.
1:04:38
But I think that I think we also we know the importance of endings like that is what you walk out with is that feeling, you know, and how do you stick that landing is, you know, one of the most if not the most important thing you do and and it's setting up this world.
1:04:55
It's having memorable scenes and going on the ride, but then it's that ending.
1:05:00
And um you know in thinking about the novella I also agree like I I remember the sensation I had when I first finished the first finished reading it.
1:05:11
But it's like like a whole paragraph is dedicated to the sound that the wolf boy makes and it's like the imagination and what it can conjure versus like actually now having to execute that and translate it to film.
1:05:29
Like I don't know that our medium would suffice the potency of I think that's right >> the idea and what's being expressed.
1:05:35
So like that would be its sort of fatal flaw if it was what you actually tried to end the film with.
1:05:42
And yet the plane sequence I don't know that the the plane sequence in the nolla could conjure what a movie could use in its medium to express a similar feeling, right? You know, >> right?
1:05:56
And so I don't know that like there's a unique trade-off there. >> Yeah.
1:06:01
And there's something that Greg said earlier which is like about overwriting and and that's that's a lesson we learned early on from Trans Pacos as well and in by making some mistakes where it's like put it all in there.
1:06:13
you know, at the very least, your actors are going and or your production designer, your DP, they're all going to internalize that and it's going to come out even if it's not said, right?
1:06:22
Or not or not articulated in some way.
1:06:28
>> And I think that with like you're asking about like what percentage it depends on the film.
1:06:32
With Jockey, we wrote we wrote at least 50% while we were filming that movie, you know, and then a lot of it didn't end up in there >> every night. Yeah. Yeah. Sing.
1:06:41
You guys write in Google Docs? >> Uh, no. We >> outline.
1:06:46
Yeah, >> we outline in Google Docs.
1:06:47
Um, as like kind of a pros document, but then we're writing in uh Final Draft.
1:06:51
Um, just cuz this isn't sponsored by Final Draft.
1:06:56
It's just like the easiest one to use.
1:06:58
>> Um, but I would say like all of those things end up in the movie that you shoot.
1:07:04
Even if they don't end up in the movie, you know what I mean?
1:07:08
what I mean? ah >> like like all of the and sometimes actors get a little like >> bothered when like their favorite line gets taken out or something like that and and you feel bad as a filmmaker but at the same time it's like it's in there >> even if it's not in there you know
1:07:26
>> music you're a musician and >> yes >> you feel that in the movie soundtracks how does what matters in a soundtrack >> I think that thing of just like making it all going back to that what we were saying about like not wanting the viewer or the audience to know what is improv and what is written. It's all of a piece and that's
1:07:48
It's all of a piece and that's that is um I can't speak for it's different on every film, right?
1:07:55
Because like I just watched a film last night that had like the best needle drop ever and it totally didn't fit and but it fit because it didn't fit. This is not that.
1:08:06
Train Dreams is not that, right?
1:08:06
But like um I find just speaking very personally that I learned on jockeying and then came into this is like there's in the same way that we were talking about like you're you're almost trying to find a story rather than build it.
1:08:22
There's like some rhythm that I'm trying to find in the edit and and through the edit rather than making that rhythm.
1:08:31
And there's a rhythm at which point the like film locks into itself and and you can feel that and when you're editing you'll hit moments where it's like that stretch of 10 minutes is great and that one's locked in and this one's terrible >> and and you're just trying to like get into that.
1:08:49
Um and the music is a big part of that. Bryce Desner's score.
1:08:52
He's we've worked with him on on all of our films and yeah, that was perfect.
1:09:00
Um, but yeah, it's just like it's just like getting into that getting into that like rhythm and then that emotional rhythm almost and then the rest can can come out of it.
1:09:13
>> You know, people don't realize how hard it is to match the music to the mood.
1:09:15
I mean, you know, we just made this short film and >> I spent a little bit of time looking for music.
1:09:25
The two guys who I worked with spent a bunch of time and oh my goodness, you just flip through hundreds, thousands of songs.
1:09:29
You're like, "Ah, it's not quite right. It's not quite right."
1:09:33
And that was actually the biggest argument that we had.
1:09:34
It was like 5 and 1/2 minutes in, there was this one song.
1:09:38
And you said earlier, it fit because it didn't fit.
1:09:40
It was the same thing in this.
1:09:41
But then I watched and I said, "I know it fits because it doesn't fit, but we spent too long in that energy so that it no longer fits if we play it for more than 25 seconds."
1:09:52
And I was like, "Guys, trust me.
1:09:52
Trust me, trust me, trust me."
1:09:55
>> And even with the sound leveling that you get, you know, you're kind of in Adobe Premiere and you're bringing the little Q, you know, little key thing down and up and then trying to have like the little kind of like the flip of a mustache at the end like I was, you know, right at the end.
1:10:08
And it's one of those things that until you've done it, you don't realize the complexity and the subtlety to it.
1:10:16
And it's also like one of the more subjective, hard to pin down into language things.
1:10:23
But man, when it's bad, when the soundtrack is off, it really just hurts everything.
1:10:30
>> Process-wise, a big thing both of us do is, and it usually starts in the writing process, developing a playlist.
1:10:36
You know, if one of us is >> during the writing process, >> a film. Yeah.
1:10:40
And and and the sources of that can be very wide ranging, whether the songs or other other pieces of music, uh other scores.
1:10:49
And and then also something that we both do, you know, whether that's even beforehand using like different source material is like making these mood reels or with early production dailies as the edit starts.
1:11:02
mood reels, just kind of taking taking if if we were to do it after production, you know, taking a, you know, some of the like the key select shots.
1:11:10
Um, and kind of putting together almost like a tone poem with with a piece of music that can become like a a guiding light of like here's here's the feeling that, you know, we're going for with the ultimate work.
1:11:23
And then you're often editing with tent music and so you're grabbing from other scores and things and it's a imperfect system because it's not cohesive and and yet it can it still at least start to touch the feeling that you're going for with the scenes.
1:11:40
And then the big thing you have to do is when when we ultimately and and we like Bryce to see our stuff as early as possible and not like when it's fully baked, but is you know allow him to sort of get a sense of where some of the starting ideas were.
1:11:54
But then you have to just push it all aside and you you pull all of that temp out and everything else and then allow it to be as much a blank slate as possible, but you have some of these kind of guiding principles and and things along the way that can help at least have a common language. Let's close here.
1:12:14
Let's close here. as you guys think of maxims, mantras that you come back to in your work together, have you developed some or I think that my dad used to always uh which is very annoying when I was a kid um but it just rings in my
1:12:30
head now and I think it's like if I were to pass anything along that works for any writer or artist or anything like that but he would always just be like he would always say pay attention pay attention pay attention and sometimes that was because I was like doing something very stupid. Um, but sometimes
1:12:44
Um, but sometimes it was just because we were we we lived in the woods and like we were walking through the woods and I was being too loud. >> Yeah. You grew up where? >> In Florida.
1:12:53
Um, on a cattle ranch in Florida. Um, that's right.
1:13:00
>> And I think that's the thing that applies like whether you're in the writing, whether you're in the edit, whether you're in production, whether you're having a meeting with an actor, pay attention.
1:13:11
and that there's so much like um I think everything can be kind of solved from that.
1:13:17
You know, >> I would take to to steal the mantra of of the program that was the center of our movie Sing was trust the process. >> Oh yeah.
1:13:26
>> And you know it has many meanings to the men inside that program.
1:13:30
I would say one of them is just like you know it's a show until opening night and then somehow it just works.
1:13:37
But it's really I think something that we embraced is is the process is where the life is, >> you know, and make the process good and healthy and and and do it with great intention.
1:13:52
Like we really laser in on that in in terms of like it go on adventure.
1:13:59
Go on an adventure into the into the world that you're writing in.
1:14:03
you know uh you know imbue the work with the values you know uh that you try to live with you know things like that like really really thoughtful and really granular uh time spent in that can yield like really interesting work
1:14:22
>> and it is by it is that thing of like by focusing on the details the bigger picture will take care of itself >> you might not know like how you're going to pull off this like big sequence of whatever it is or how you're going to like make a love story happen, right? But you focus on the little details of
1:14:37
But you focus on the little details of that thing, whatever it is, um, in the writing or in the editor or whatever, and then focus on your shot list, and then the sequence will play out, you know.
1:14:48
>> Um, trust the process is a good one. >> Cue the end credits. >> There we go. Good to meet you guys. >> Thanks, man. It was pretty fun.
1:14:57
>> Yeah, it was cool, >> actually.
1:14:59
Really cool to meet you guys.
1:15:00
>> Really cool to meet you guys.
1:15:00
It's um you guys are so thoughtful and you're not you you didn't o like you're not overdoing it, but it's like true and it's that you can feel the care and the cycles of thought and revision and the depth that only comes from that deep consideration in your work and from this conversation. >> Thanks, man. That means a lot.
1:15:27
Yeah, >> this is a great podcast you have and it's been like the variety of authors that you speak to and and artists and like what they talk about is always like it's great. It's really fun. >> Watch Train Dreams. Thank you very much.