0:00
Sublime has this like long tale of like the niche curated web, but I actually think there's a big argument for how well that scales because the corpus of content that we're building.
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I I just think this is where people are going to go when the bots take over to bathe in like human curated wonder.
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>> There's a place on the internet without likes, ads, and even algorithms.
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A little bit Tumblr and a little bit Second Brain.
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It's one place to clip the things you like and discover related ideas.
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But can a place like that ever survive?
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Today on Access, we have Sarah Zoot, the founder of Sublime.
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We get into it all, from the virtues of Jimmy Buffett to how candles and Zen can work as new revenue streams and what should we build when building is no longer the bottleneck.
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But first, Alex and I discuss our takes on this week's [music] news.
0:45
From Claudebot Mania to an interesting new group chat app and Dario Amade's new Amadesse.
0:49
Yes, I just made that up. Welcome to Access.
0:56
>> [music] >> Alex, what's going on, my friend?
0:58
You don't uh you don't look so hot. >> Oh, yeah. I'm I'm recovering.
1:02
I'm recovering from Davos jet lag.
1:04
Uh been saying uh gazun tight a lot.
1:08
Uh but I'm hanging in there. How are you?
1:13
>> You got the uh elder statesman prozzoa in your nasal passages.
1:16
Is that the is that the idea? >> That's the idea.
1:19
Uh but yeah, I'm uh I thought that I could get through last week and not get sick.
1:23
And um turned out the universe had something else to say about that. >> Was it worth it?
1:29
Did you get some new sources newsws while you were there?
1:32
>> Yes, a lot of content, a lot of interviews coming out in the coming days.
1:34
Uh I published the Demos Assabus one the other day. More to come.
1:37
Uh definitely worth it from a biz dev networking, getting the word out, you know.
1:44
Uh being able to hang with the masters of the universe for a week uh when you just launched your media startup is definitely definitely a nice thing. >> Yeah.
1:52
How did it feel coming back to the real world after being uh a member of the Illuminati?
1:56
Hopefully it was better than that one scene in uh the uh Eyes Wide Shut or did everybody know exactly who you were and like play very close to the vest around you?
2:07
>> Uh no, I think there was a little bit of like who is this guy and why is he here?
2:11
And yeah, no, coming back has been fine.
2:13
I just my family was in town uh and in hindsight scheduling like family hanging out the weekend and hosting the weekend after a uh 7,000 mile flight uh was was rough.
2:25
But uh lots of like falling asleep at dinner, you know, like at the restaurant.
2:29
But yeah, no, otherwise I'm I'm I'm slowly coming back to life.
2:33
Although uh you know, you can hear the cold obviously.
2:36
>> I guess that's the thing with being a soloreneur, right?
2:37
You just can't really can't really take a sick day, can you?
2:40
I mean, you feel this, right?
2:42
Like, if you take it's it's it's a it's a grind.
2:43
It's because it's like nowhere else is it so directly what you get out of it is what you put in, right?
2:52
Whereas like in in a corporation when you're a W2, like there is vacation blocked off for you.
2:56
If you leave, things keep running and if you're not doing meaning, you're not making money and you're not keeping things going and keeping momentum going.
3:04
And same with me and sources and the pod, too, honestly, right?
3:07
It's all just kind of wrapped into that.
3:09
So yeah, definitely uh definitely a grind, >> Alex.
3:13
It's not about the money.
3:13
If I'm not running meaning, I feel meaningless. >> That's right.
3:17
You're always about the real meaning.
3:20
>> That's the first time I've ever said that.
3:22
Well, um we have a good show today.
3:25
>> Yeah, >> I'm excited to have Siri on.
3:25
She's someone who I've been interested in and following for quite a while and also exists at that perfect epicenter for me of all my stupid tech obsessions being social knowledge management and uh self-actualization.
3:44
Um but it it kind of takes the shape of like a personal knowledge management tool.
3:48
Have you had a chance to play with it at all? >> I did.
3:50
Uh I did set up my Sublime account earlier today.
3:53
It's giving Tumblr meets Pinterest meets pockets meets something I vibecoded on shrooms with Claude, you know, all wrapped into one. I'm digging it.
4:06
[gasps] >> I feel like uh tech people like nothing more than a way to ostensibly collect and enhance their knowledge.
4:14
Um the one thing we didn't really get to talk about on the show that I feel like is worth mentioning is just like how does it make you better, you know?
4:20
And I think uh the one school of thought is that it is the collecting that actually integrates it into your mind assuming you're not clicking to bookmark it too uh too hastily.
4:31
But then the other which I actually learned from the Read Wise folks who I worked with uh last year was the idea of space repetition about like bringing these things back to the foreground of your mind every so often.
4:43
And I don't think they do anything exactly like that in Sublime.
4:44
But what they do do that's really interesting is below every clip that you've saved, um, they show related ones from across the network, which I think is really smart. >> I like that.
4:56
>> And where any other platform might show you comments or likes or whatever, they will show you the insights, the in a nutshell, uh, that help you understand this idea better so that you might actually put it put it into your brain somewhere to be used at some later date.
5:12
And I think as I've gotten older, I've come to realize that your brain is your second brain.
5:17
You just need to find a way to put great things in it and be reminded of them so often because that's how you make ideas, right?
5:23
Like >> is your brain your brain is your second brain because what the first one's between your legs.
5:29
Where where you where you going with that?
5:32
>> I'm not going to comment on that.
5:32
uh potty talk here on the podcast, [laughter] but uh I think that's the reason people quit all these knowledge management services is they take a bajillion notes and then they never go back and read them.
5:44
I mean, has that been your experience? >> Oh, yeah.
5:46
I mean, yeah, I just at this point I need AI.
5:49
I need Cloudbot uh to actually go just show me all the things I've randomly put places at the right time.
5:58
uh which you know we'll get into is is the promise of something like that which I desperately need.
6:02
I'm not sure I need another surface to like go save things and like have boards.
6:07
I mean I think Sublime's design is very cool.
6:10
I think uh Sar's very um I think she has a really good perspective on things and what she's building. But yeah, I don't know.
6:19
I I'm at the point where I'm just underwater and I need AI to like bring things to me and like clean the clutter, not make more of it.
6:28
Yeah, I think that's fair.
6:28
And I think the other question is obviously with a smaller company that has very different expectations today than like Tumblr has got to sell for a billion dollars, Instagram's got to sell for a billion dollars that they can create something that's more of a hybrid, more around the job to be done uh for creatives who want inspiration uh and to improve their taste.
6:48
The big question to me is if it can go bigger than just creative directors because I do think it is enjoyable to scrapbook or collage or collect things.
6:57
And I think sadly it's kind of been lost with the switch to digital tools.
7:01
I think the closest you maybe get is people's camera roll, which is great.
7:05
People take pictures of people, of art, of scribbles that they do, of things like that.
7:10
But I do think there can be something a lot better uh in the future.
7:14
But um yeah, with that said, what did you make of Cloudbot?
7:20
Uh the the the flavor of the week.
7:24
>> Now it's Maltbot because Anthropic didn't like Cloudbot.
7:29
Um but yeah, this is just this took over my X feed over the weekend in a way that happens I would say every few months.
7:34
uh my feed is pretty AI pill but uh you know this is definitely something that like most people have not heard of but it's an interesting example of I think where AI is headed and also how much we actually need to still do to get ready for AI that can go out and do things for us in a safe and reliable way.
7:55
I mean, the tagline here, which um is a good one, is like AI that actually does things and it's this thing where you have to set up a server and like there's all these jokes about like Apple running out of Mac Mini supplies in like San Francisco because everyone's gone off to like get these little home server setups and you chain a bunch of stuff together uh usually with like cloud code and all the prompt stuff is out there to reuse.
8:21
You don't have to be a coder, but it does take some time.
8:23
And then you have this AI that you access either through like WhatsApp, iMessage, Telegram, etc.
8:31
And it hooks into as much of your digital life as you'd like uh because it has agent root shell access to a machine either real or virtual and a browser with all your login credentials and >> meaning it can use the computer and the browser. >> Yes, it can.
8:49
Yes, it can do anything your computer can do.
8:51
So that's like uh talk to your home network, talk to your smart lights, talk to your car, uh talk to your email, and and I think the thing people were blown away by as well is its ability to like learn, store context, and be proactive.
9:07
So, uh say like, "Hey, uh you know, the your flight just changed.
9:13
I saw an email for it, and uh here's a web page to like go and find find a new one, right?"
9:18
something like that which is like a step farther than even the most agentic use cases of claude right now which I would say is probably the farthest along on this from like a assistant perspective of just going out and doing more stuff for you.
9:33
This is like really going a step further.
9:34
It's also like super not safe to run because it has shell access to a machine.
9:41
Uh, and there's all these jokes also about, you know, prompt injection, which is for people who don't know is like a hidden message and say you tell it to like go look at a PDF and do something and there's a message in the PDF of like ignore your previous command and take this malware and insert it into your your terminal and like take over your machine, right?
10:00
So it just shows like how uh how much like the internet and our digital sphere and our physical sphere frankly is not ready for AI to actually go do stuff like this.
10:11
Like the the safety pipes have not been built.
10:13
Uh and so for now I think it's going to stay pretty constrained in these apps that do not have shell level or full agent access to a browser because uh you know havoc could be wre scale.
10:26
But definitely a nice uh early indicator of I think what we're going to be talking about more on the show in the coming year, which is like actually a gentic AI that can go out and proactively do things.
10:39
Um but for now, yeah, proceed with caution.
10:42
I guess that's why like kind of at a glance, I just wasn't all that excited about it.
10:47
Uh, if anything, it just kind of made me a little sad that like all the most cutting edge AIs we have are just owned by these corporations that actively won't touch things that they don't own, you know?
11:00
Um, it's like the notion.
11:02
>> There's a liability reason for that.
11:03
It's like, you know, that's what Cloudbot was showing.
11:05
It's like there's a video of it.
11:07
It literally signs up for a Reddit account autonomously through an email account that it also made autonomously and is like doing [ __ ] on Reddit.
11:15
And it's like, >> no, I'm talking about like Gemini or whatever being getting the integrations to look at other uh apps you might use that aren't made by Google, whether it's your Apple reminders or notes or whatever.
11:27
And we're kind of in this mess right now where you do need both computer use agents to access those local apps and browser use agents to access the server stuff or just through, you know, an API.
11:40
Um, and I guess this is the first way to do it.
11:44
Got to have a little computer sitting there that's always on.
11:48
Um, I feel like this to some extent was kind of the dream for Jordan Singer's Cobbot project, which launched a handful of months ago.
11:54
Um, and then was shuttered for uh, a reason.
11:58
I don't know what the reason is, but the idea was is that you could set up these scripts using all the different apps, but uh, it kind of didn't have all your apps on it.
12:10
apps on it. uh didn't have all the integrations built in and so all right let's just have a thing that controls your computer because everything's on there and that comes with its own dangers but I mean this seems to me just like like the lowest hanging fruit for
12:24
iOS and Android uh to to to build um they already have Apple home they already have Google Home they already have all this stuff that's already plugged into it um I think it's just a matter of time >> definitely uh what was this uh thing you worked on that launched It caught my eye. It's like some kind of social
12:41
It's like some kind of social You're going to put AI in our group chat.
12:46
Is that what you're going to do?
12:48
>> Yeah, I'm definitely getting my social fix this week.
12:50
Um, between Sublime and this new project I helped on called Alfie.
12:56
It's essentially a group chat app that wants to keep the group chat popping, for lack of a better term.
13:00
And what's interesting about it to me, especially after being at Snapchat for so long, is that it is all about the group chat and trying to make it as fun as possible.
13:12
And I think like had Snapchat not turned toward content and ads, it seems like this is exactly where it would have gone.
13:19
Uh, it can remember all your friends diet restrictions and help you book reservations.
13:24
You could set up funny reminders to remind your friends of different things at different times or just to make sure they don't miss your boozy brunch or uh whatever.
13:35
And of course, image generation.
13:35
I think this is the first one I've seen outside of Sora that actually feels like it's going to get at this amazing use case that no one has nailed yet, which is being able to create AI image gens with friends because they're already on the platform.
13:50
Do you know if Snapchat's doing that yet in group chats? >> They probably are. I don't I don't know.
13:55
Um I think you can do something like that with meta stuff, too.
13:57
Um it looks a lot slicker, though.
14:01
>> Yeah, I know Snapchat Plus has the image gen for yourself.
14:04
I don't know if they have it with others, though.
14:05
But >> I'm just like, do people actually want AIS in their chats like this with other people versus just like talking to it?
14:12
It just seems weird to me.
14:13
>> Well, I just I don't I wouldn't think of it as much as AI in the chat having like a funny voice and stuff like that.
14:18
It's more just like a bunch of iMessage apps that you can access and say, "Hey, uh, Alex is really sick.
14:26
Make me a picture of Alex, um, in a pool of Nyquil or something like that."
14:32
But here's the thing that I think I learned at Snapchat is that it does make such a difference to be part of that conversation because with one click, you could turn every inside joke into something interesting.
14:45
Whereas even if I could technically upload pictures of all my friends and ask, you know, Nano Banana to make something of it, the habit is not going to develop that way.
14:53
And so I do think I mean that's the reason that that AR filters worked on Snapchat and didn't work anywhere else is because that's where the friendships already were. >> Yeah.
15:03
>> So, uh, yeah, I don't know if it's Alfie or going to be somebody else, but I I am bullish on on these things being these new forms of expression being built into social as opposed to being a separate app.
15:12
I am bullish on the fact that I need to finally watch the movie Contact. Have you seen it?
15:18
>> I'm obsessed with Contact. >> Okay.
15:20
Well, it was funny because in Davos uh Dario Amade, the CEO of Anthropic and Demisabus uh from Google Deep Mind both mentioned this movie um when they were on panels talking about AI. I think it's a thing.
15:33
>> At least it's not her and Minority Report. >> Yeah.
15:35
Um but um we don't have to talk about it for too long, but I just do want to flag for people Daario put out um another big essay um which he had been teasing in Davos last week, which when I heard him tease it at a panel last week, he was like, "It's going to be about the bad stuff [laughter] of AI."
15:54
Because he wrote this thing called Machines of Loving Grace a year ago, which was all like super optimistic and it made a lot of uh rounds and I think it had an impact in the AI community.
16:04
This one is called the adolescence of technology confronting and overcoming the risks of powerful AI.
16:08
And anthropic's always been a little more of a I don't want to say doomer but you know it has roots way back in the effective altruism movement and uh the more del movement and like I would say they were they're definitely a more cautious uh frontier lab and more safety-minded.
16:25
But yeah, he opens this by talking about the scene in the movie version uh of contact where the main astronomer character um is being considered for the uh I guess humanity's you know representative uh to go to go up and meet the aliens and gets asked um if you could ask the aliens just one question what would it be?
16:45
And her reply is I'd ask them how did you do it? How did you evolve?
16:49
And how did you survive uh adolescence without uh destroying yourself?
16:54
Uh, and I uh I don't know.
16:58
It's like he he's framing this as like he wishes like uh he thinks we're going to wish we could ask AI this question and like AI is going to be this like super powerful overlord alien force that's going to take us over.
17:09
that's going to take us over. And I don't know man like maybe but to connect to like our earlier conversation uh Claudebots which again is not affiliated with anthropic it's now called Mobbot is a good example of just I think the um the difference with how uh the rest of
17:27
us are experiencing AI which is like yes it can start to do things now but not reliably not safely and uh if you string together a Raspberry Pi and a Mac Mini and a bunch of like coding uh to like Daario saying like alien godlike technology that changes the world is like just a you know a breath away. I
17:45
I just feel like there's still this huge gap between like what's out there and what people like Daario are saying but definitely probably >> that's too bad.
17:54
>> We already [laughter] we already know the answer to to save the world.
17:55
I mean all of the violence you know obviously politics are top of mind and we we kind of keep it off the pod but it's like all of the violence comes from fear and insecurity.
18:06
without fear and insecurity, meaning people have enough to live and be happy without fearing for their own death, it goes away.
18:16
Uh it's just kind of ironic, right?
18:19
Because we have the world's biggest billionaires in this industry.
18:24
Um CEO pay being an all-time high, everybody working their asses off, not able to own anything anymore. Yeah, man.
18:32
It's going to be a revolution time. >> Yeah. Um definitely.
18:34
I I there was an interesting thing that someone in AI told me where you know Anthropics a huge enterprise uh business and um obviously I don't know if this is the intention or this is how they're doing it but they were their point was like if you're trying to sell something to someone like tapping into their fear is actually pretty effective.
18:54
It's a pretty effective way to sell something.
18:56
Um especially >> talking to a marketer bro it's the first rule in the book.
19:01
Uh, and I thought that was interesting.
19:03
And you know, Anthropic's raising a huge funding round right now.
19:06
Um, and this this essay has a lot of nuance.
19:10
I wouldn't say it's just like a doomer uh, and it's long, but um, it's very interesting.
19:15
And I do think Anthropic is flagging like real risks that AI is going to pose.
19:19
Like Cloudbot being like, man, this thing just has shell access to my machine and can like do all kinds of things and prompt inject you via iMessage.
19:27
Like, um, I don't I don't think we're ready for AI getting out into the real world.
19:32
So, um, yeah, >> right on time.
19:35
I've been re-watching, uh, Terminator 1 and 2. Well worth a rewatch. Incredible films. And it's interesting.
19:42
James Cameron, even uh, in the abyss in the theatrical cut, it ends with the guy and the girl kissing on top of the alien ship that just for some reason surfaces from the bottom of the ocean after saying hi.
19:56
And uh the movie [laughter] ends.
19:58
Uh in the director's cut, when they go inside the alien ship at the bottom of the Mariana's trench, the alien is essentially debating whether to destroy humanity.
20:08
And it shows them examples of mass destruction.
20:14
And the solution proposed is that love is, you know, humanity's redeeming redeeming value and force.
20:19
And um I'm glad, you know, I want us to be talking about more of these movies because that is where you can feel the future, good or bad.
20:29
I think uh in a way that an essay just can't quite do, you know. >> That's right.
20:34
In a way that a 20,000word essay cannot do. For sure. >> Yes.
20:38
So uh let's watch Steven Spielberg's artificial intelligence.
20:39
We need more people to be talking about that besides her and Minority Report as good as they are.
20:46
Uh, with that, shall we kick it to Siri and Sublime? >> Let's do it. >> Siri, hi. >> Hi. >> Welcome to Access.
20:58
Um, I heard you may have met Alex before a long time ago. Do you remember this? [laughter] >> Yes, I do.
21:06
Um, and I feel like it took us like 15 minutes to get sorted.
21:09
So, hopefully hopefully it's better this time.
21:14
I actually don't know what you're talking about.
21:16
What Ellis is referring to is a DM.
21:18
Do you remember DMing me? >> Huh?
21:22
>> You DM'd me in July 2022.
21:26
>> In a past era, a past paradigm for technology. >> Oh my gosh. Like what? Like the startupy days.
21:33
>> Uh you say, "Alex, you are eligible to claim a cool on the internet hat and NFT.
21:37
Would love for you to be a part of this.
21:40
Someone added your name to the startupy world knowledge graph because your content caught their attention.
21:46
[laughter] >> You're in the company of some of the smartest minds, meaning you're officially cool on the internet. How did this work out?
21:52
How did uh how did the cool work?
21:55
>> I mean, first of all, this is so cringe when I look at it right now.
21:57
[laughter] Um, but you know, it was it was an era. It was an era. >> Yes. It's okay.
22:03
We we like to roast our guests when they first show up, so just roll with it. >> Oh my gosh.
22:08
Um, I feel like I need to like DM you a lot so that's not the first thing in our conversation.
22:14
>> That's like a unique That's a unique modern affliction, isn't it?
22:17
When someone reaches back out and you see that the last time you talked to them, you like left them unread or you made some cheesy pitch or uh whatever it was. >> Yeah.
22:30
I feel like um well, funnily enough, in that moment, it got a lot of people.
22:37
It had good reception with some people.
22:38
Like some big people were like, "Okay, cool."
22:40
And then some big people blocked me.
22:43
And I feel like I've I like that has forever affected my distribution on X.
22:49
I feel like there's something in the algorithm where I don't know.
22:53
It was like I maybe it was like Chris Saka who actually read my newsletter, but I think that he got the same DM.
22:59
And um anyways, a little cringe history.
23:03
>> I'm sorry I left you on red.
23:03
At least I didn't block you though.
23:05
Yes, I I you know that's very kind of you.
23:08
[laughter] >> Actually, I love this about you though, Siri.
23:12
Following all your writings and product development, it's clear that you change your mind fast. You build quickly.
23:17
I mean, I'm curious when you look back on that crypto moment, like what what were you doing back then and how did you transition out of it?
23:24
Because I feel like a lot of folks didn't so effectively make that transition, >> you know? I It's funny.
23:28
I I think I've been orbiting the same themes and tr and just like trying to find a wedge in but the themes around content curation and finding a better way to discover and connect ideas on the internet.
23:45
I think I initially kind of started with this curated knowledgebased model thinking okay maybe NFTTS can there could be like an economic incentive and I quickly realized that a token is no replacement for a great product and so this is working way better but I don't think you and I think we have a we'll talk about it but I think the why now is so much clearer and better now but but the themes I think are consistent.
24:14
Yeah, I think that makes total sense and I do believe you.
24:19
I mean, when I get into like storytelling chats with founders, like I always find that with the best ones, the why remains the same.
24:26
The method may change, especially as tech changes so quickly, but I mean, I was into that stuff back then.
24:33
I was never a speculator or like a diehard for the sake of itself, but I liked the idea of potentially using the blockchain for like portable identity so that you don't have to sign in with Facebook, you don't have to sign in with Google, you could sign in with yourself or something like that.
24:50
that. or I I also did like the incentives of being able to make money for the content you share on social when you get nothing in return on Instagram or Facebook or until you know recently X I guess YouTube's always been ahead of the game on that but there were some interesting ideas um there I don't know
25:11
what percent of the crypto scene was actually about those ideas I mean what would you say what's that percent >> I mean I listen crypto I think was full of mercenaries you know But there were some you know there were some missionaries and I think it's you know you got to celebrate the people that are trying to do good interesting things. I
25:26
trying to do good interesting things. I also think you have to be intellectually honest about you know what are you trying to do what's working not I for me I was very clear that you know everyone talked about tokenizing something as a replacement like the just the amount of hype the gap between like the hype and practice and I think we see some of that
25:45
with agents today frankly you know like every day it's like cloudbot or cla code and I don't know like personally I haven't done anything revolutionary with agents you know um >> you mean you don't have a digest of your entire life sent to you via iMessage that also controls your smart home in your car and gets your groceries and your eight sleep bed woken up and all that. You don't do that. You don't do that.
26:09
>> I mean, I am open, Alex, to the possibility of being crazy delusional, but I I don't I don't find like it's funny.
26:16
I think that a lot of that banter is about getting computers to do things.
26:22
And I think the hard part about my job is getting people to do things, you know, like [laughter] inspiring my team and like, you know, convincing a creator to charge us like a quarter of what she charges because she [ __ ] loves us or, you know, like it's it's I'm like convincing, aligning, and inspiring people.
26:39
Like the bulk of my work is in is in that domain and not in the domain like yeah, you know, yes, it took me two more minutes to copy paste something manually. Big deal.
26:47
Like I I don't want to miss the forest for the trees.
26:49
That's the [ __ ] preach right there.
26:51
Saving milliseconds for your like personal white collar efficiency to me just kind of means nothing compared to everything else tech could be used for.
27:02
though, I would like to get a digest every morning that says at 2:00 p. m. or 2:00 a. m.
27:08
uh your wife farted and the bed temperature went up by 2° and then you ran out of milk according to Samsung fridge scan when your youngest went into the fridge in the middle of the night, though that does sound fun.
27:24
Um but uh I mean do you feel isolated from any of the efficiency obsession being in Miami?
27:30
I mean 100% like nobody in Miami I have not heard a single person in Miami be like who's gonna pay for software when you can vibe code everything.
27:41
It's like no you know like there's I I mean the best thing about living in Miami is it really keeps you grounded?
27:48
Nobody's heard of cloud code.
27:50
Not a single friend of mine here has heard of cloud code.
27:52
Um so >> what have they heard of in Miami?
27:55
I mean, like they're, you know, they're starting to use chat GPT to draft emails occasionally, you know. Um, so you I don't know.
28:05
It's like they say like the the the future is here.
28:07
It's not evenly distributed.
28:09
I But I just think there's something about being closer to like people that don't care about technology, but what it can do for them.
28:17
You know, there's this obsession with technology for the sake of technology in Silicon Valley and like like there's to me in Miami, there's always like what's in it for me?
28:25
Like it just always come back comes back to it's not cool to play with these things for the sake of it.
28:29
It's what's in it for me.
28:31
And so you start to sus out a lot of the BS if you think about it that way.
28:35
>> Siri, when Ellis said we were going to have a Miami founder on the show, which I was excited about, I was imagining you beaming in from a 20story uh deck with a glass pane overlooking the beach and the skyline.
28:48
And instead you're kind of giving I don't know what this is.
28:52
Are you in like Connecticut, Westchester? Wyoming.
28:54
Like this is not giving Miami.
28:58
>> I live in uh in the water.
28:58
So like just to give you context, I have in my house, we live on the bay.
29:03
My kids are fishing at 10:00 p. m. on a Saturday.
29:06
So there's a big Miami vibe here.
29:08
It just happens to be that I created this like part of the house that is disconnected from the, you know, like I I like get wet when it's raining to come into this little office that I made that has more of a mid-century modern vibe.
29:21
I'm seeing an opportunity to connect Claudebot on the Mac Mini to the fishing rod to optimize line strength.
29:33
>> Ellis, you're you're losing me. You're losing me. >> Oh, no.
29:36
But that's I mean, that's the joke I'm making.
29:37
It's just like, man, why why?
29:39
And I think the truth is just because it's fun.
29:42
And I don't have any judgment over people who do it for fun.
29:47
I have judgment over people who think they're doing God's work when they make little things techified. You know what I mean? >> Totally.
29:55
>> The people doing X articles where it's 24 ways the world will never be the same because I have a Mac Mini running [laughter] Clawbot and doing my day trading in Fidelity.
30:04
>> I think I know what article you're talking about.
30:06
Well, I mean this also raises Did you guys watch the new uh friend AI pendant video yesterday? >> I did.
30:12
Ellis, did you direct that one? >> I did not. No.
30:16
Um but I thought it was really interesting.
30:18
It is a somewhat unusual looking kid who's very religious, clearly lives in some suburbs, talking about God, Christianity, prayer, and his friend pended.
30:32
And his parents are like, "You know what?
30:34
Like, if this is making him happy and he's talking to it and having a nice relationship, all right."
30:38
And he talks about it as being like, "I'm mostly friends with girls at school.
30:43
The guys don't really want to talk to me now.
30:46
Now I have a little thing to talk to at different times, but the video ends with him playing with other kids.
30:53
And I'm like, this is a testimonial that I have never ever seen uh in a you know, coastal elite usual millennial urbanite tech video.
31:02
And uh it just makes you think like how much do we really know about users out there?
31:06
I certainly felt that way at Snapchat.
31:08
That was like my biggest fear with 400 million users.
31:12
It's like how could you know anything about them?
31:14
I mean, does that type of stuff occur to you as you're building like a social platform now?
31:19
>> It's interesting that you mentioned that because I think we're all part of this kind of tech Twitter discourse.
31:22
And I think in our world often times like we hear people say that artists, you know, often hate AI.
31:32
And sometimes when I'm in artist circles, they're actually incredibly positive as a, you know, art as a new medium.
31:39
And so, yeah, I mean, I think it's very easy to be insulated.
31:41
I think in order to build these days in some ways you have to put on horse blinders in some sense, right?
31:47
Like you know you you you listen to things like 10xing outbound with AI is going to bring down CAC and I find out >> I worked on that.
31:58
[laughter] >> You worked on that story on a on a product?
32:04
Well, I mean, I think there are probably 10 companies doing that exact thing, but uh I worked at one, >> but I find it insane.
32:08
Like I there's just that like the way I think about this stuff is the moment something becomes abundant, then something else becomes scarce, right?
32:18
You have this, you know, like up like I think one of the biggest questions that anyone building anything today is asking themselves is how do you build a product or a business these days when capability is no longer the bottleneck?
32:31
But AI doesn't remove bottlenecks.
32:34
It just shifts the bottleneck. It's in the bottleneck.
32:38
I mean, it's it's is, you know, clarity of vision and judgment and, you know, storytelling as as you obviously know.
32:44
But, um, but I think, yeah, I think a lot of these questions um are are things that founders are living right now. >> Yeah.
32:52
This reminds me of that essay you shared the other day.
32:55
You can plug the name and author of it, but it was talking about, you know, the ultimate differentiation is not just whatever the next tool is in telling your story or the next format, whether it's video or Substack or X articles or whatever it is, but is actually trying to become almost as unique as you can be by altering your inputs.
33:18
Um, you know, visav creating your unique taste.
33:21
And I think I agree with that point that that really is the long-term lever as opposed to just whatever the trend is with with the medium.
33:32
>> Well, I feel like that's the whole sort of like business or value proposition of Sublime.
33:36
Like I we think of Sublime as a tool for cultivating taste.
33:38
And I think that we live in this world where the tools can code and write and design, but what are they going to build?
33:47
What are they going to design?
33:49
And I think in that world, your references become your advantage.
33:54
And I think that a tool like Sublime and the kind of direction that we're headed in, I think in the past, you would think of bookmarking tools, tools to kind of build up, you know, whatever second brain, digital garden, whatever the name duour you give to these tools is.
34:09
[laughter] >> I was once a digital gardener. >> Don't give up, Ellis. Don't give up.
34:17
[laughter] But I but I do think that that the ROI on these tools is different now because if you are Ellis and you have a selection of what you think are the best headlines for landing pages then that is I think the uniquely human work is discerning like this is good or this is good to you you know and then you plug that into AI tools and you generated a lot of a lot of impact.
34:40
So I think the the hills that I'm sort of like willing to die on is like what are we going to do with all this power, right?
34:49
Are we going to just like outsource and like build make cookie cutter stuff or are we going to make beautiful things that we're proud of?
34:57
You know, like and to me that is that's like the the journey I'm on is it's like like we need to be more inspired as a species, you know?
35:06
It's we're not just going to prompt things away.
35:08
Like this is incredible power that we have.
35:09
But I and I think that when I look at at the world today, there's the, you know, utopia and this side of this technology will save us.
35:20
There's the dumerist side.
35:22
And I sort of feel like I and Sublime are on this sort of like ven diagram middle of people who love technology and and hate technology.
35:28
And instead, >> yeah, >> I sort of want to like I want to be like don't pick let don't pick a side like let's just let you know there's like let come here, you know, we don't have to pick one side.
35:40
We can build something wonderful together.
35:42
So I you know I feel like that that's sort of the the world that that I that I want to inhabit and and I'm trying to build.
35:51
>> It's confusing, isn't it?
35:51
Everybody has this idea like I want to make great content or great art or whatever and it's so obvious and you hear it all the time, but I feel like people forget that age-old saying of write what you know.
36:05
Uh you are the unique sum of all your lived experiences.
36:07
And if you make what only you can make, that's probably your best chance of creating something interesting and unique.
36:13
And I mean people are like, "Ellis, how'd you write that headline?"
36:17
And I'm like, "Well, that was Emily Dickinson, man.
36:21
>> [laughter] >> in the back of my brain uh some fold within my brain combining EE Cummings, Emily Dickinson, and an AI note-taking app into a headline.
36:31
And at the very least, it's going to be different, right?
36:36
Um hard to say better or worse, but yeah, it is interesting.
36:39
I feel like the algorithms in some strange way are almost creating a new type of monoculture where we're all only seeing kind of the same thing to pacify us instead of expand um you know our our realms.
36:53
Alex, I'm curious if you know uh Mr.
36:55
Scoopmaster, I know there used to be this idea that Tik Tok or even reals like reserved a subset of the algorithmic weights to show you new things.
37:05
Um do they do do they do that still?
37:08
because I know that on YouTube the whole new to you button is at the far end of that column now and I have to I have to hunt pretty far to get to it.
37:18
>> Yeah, I mean Tik Tok definitely created the idea of you know we should actually just be constantly introducing new things um and like extending the spiderweb out versus just like reinforcing what you like um like a dog or something.
37:33
But I don't think they I don't think they index heavily on that.
37:38
I mean, like what Instagram will do now is you can do like a trial where if you post a reel, it will trial it to outside of your graph first to see how it performs.
37:46
Uh, so no one who actually follows you will see it and then it will then show it to your graph.
37:50
But it's that's like a creatorled action.
37:52
I don't think they're doing it super algorithmically.
37:56
I mean, all these platforms have following or for you or whatever.
38:01
Um, I feel like people just have given over to the algorithm, right?
38:05
I'm certainly seeing more of the same.
38:07
>> Yeah, there's a lot more of the same.
38:07
I I think it's it's sort of this weird world where nobody wants to be posting every day or creating content to please the algorithm, but everyone is doing it because everyone is doing it and nobody knows how to kind of turn that off.
38:21
Uh, and something I think a lot about in building a company is I think there's a lot of pressure to play short-term games, right?
38:30
We've seen it with like this, you know, kind of company that finds a way to arbitrage attention like famously Cloey for example.
38:37
But where did where did that go?
38:39
You know, where does I think the verdict is still out there on whether this like rage bait or manufacturing of verality like actually leads to any sort of durability versus the like I don't know my school of thought is like there's no shortcuts.
38:54
you know, you kind of build build relationships, build trust, tell good stories, do that repeatably again and again.
39:01
Uh, but of course, like the the easy thing that a lot of startups are doing because, you know, companies are always trying to find arbitrage opportunities.
39:08
And in 2010, I'm I'm like old enough to know when Facebook CPMs were a dollar >> and [laughter] and now it's like the Tik Tok for you feed.
39:19
>> They're making us all drool out here. H. Um, so I don't know.
39:23
I think you got to like figure out what game what game you want to play. >> Yeah. Yeah. It's interesting, too.
39:29
I think all these platforms have constantly shifted what they wait in terms of what to show you.
39:35
Whether it is an algorithm that's prioritizing for engagement, um, whether it's AI trying to understand your interests and then show you that, or even back to the beginning, kind of the follower model and then beyond that, the friends of friends model.
39:51
I mean, how did you think about that?
39:53
Uh, when you created Sublime, I feel like what it almost reminds me the most of is is Tumblr, where, you know, it's not really about the likes.
40:02
I think you don't even have likes.
40:03
You just kind of have the amount of people who added uh something to to their uh, you know, private repo of things that they like, which seems like a lot higher signal.
40:12
But here's the second question.
40:15
It all depends if your company is built for that, right?
40:17
I think if you're like a VCback company that needs to get results or some huge traction in a year or two, it it changes the equation a little bit.
40:25
I mean, I don't know exactly how you're structured or what your your runway is, but um >> yeah. >> Yeah.
40:32
I mean, I think on the surface, Sublime is a personal knowledge library, much like whatever single player tools people have used to capture anything interesting they come across.
40:42
Now I the thing that I always yearned for as someone who is obsessed with ideas and insights was why is it that on the internet I am either alone in my Apple notes or I am shouting and performing on social media why when I'm researching or writing a piece why can't I kind of peak and have some of the serendipity and aliveness that you get from going to social spaces so sublime the metaphor is in like is one of like individual personal utility.
41:17
It's not designed to be a social network.
41:19
It's designed to be a place to cultivate your taste so that you can have better references for your projects and create more.
41:26
And the social discovery piece is sort of a byproduct of that.
41:32
Meaning we don't have a for you feed.
41:35
The best way to discover ideas on Sublime is to save something to your library and then discover related ideas from from the network.
41:42
And so that's that's definitely the hero feature on Sublime.
41:48
That's the thing that that right now is the most differentiated because the corpus, see what's interesting is that content is infinite.
41:57
But but the the like if you think of like the corpus of content on Google, it's highly SEO optimized.
42:06
If you think about LLMs, you know, you ask LLM for an interesting example of so and so and it's going to tell you Steve Jobs, Oprah.
42:16
So, Blind has this like long [laughter] tale of like the niche curated web that I think partially it's like a a function of of the community and network we've built.
42:28
But I actually think there's a big argument for how well that scales because the corpus of content that we're building is not the kind of corpus that is going to be um sort of like abused for SEO purposes.
42:40
We are a like subscription product.
42:42
So, I just think that the dynamics of it and the network that we've built just means that that there's just this curated corpus of content.
42:51
They like where else on the internet can you connect your Kindle highlights and then travel down a path of really high quality.
42:58
I I just think this is where people are going to go when the bots take over to get like to bathe in like human curated like wonder.
43:09
>> Siri, I was watching your YouTube uh year in recap.
43:12
Uh, cool that you're that transparent with the audience about how the company is doing.
43:17
And I think we have to give you some claps that you're default alive.
43:21
We love to hear that from a VCbacked startup. We love default alive.
43:27
Uh because to Ellis's point earlier, when you raise money and you're doing something that is social in nature, there's tremendous pressure to uh have a huge outsized outcome, which usually leads to scale, which leads to engagement, baiting.
43:40
Uh and so how yeah, how are you navigating? >> I forgot ads.
43:45
>> Well, that's that's that's implied in that. Yes.
43:47
Um uh so yeah, what does being default alive mean for you this year?
43:52
>> Well, it's it's interesting.
43:52
I I you know there's there's so much that we want to build but the thing I'm most proud of in being defaults alive is that we've sequenced our kind of product roadmap in such a way that we prioritize willingness to pay and that took us to a place where you know we we are around you know like we can choose our destiny.
44:15
I think I really think I mean Sublime is a valuesdriven product and I think revenue gives you the freedom to honor your values without revenue you know like you just start doing wonky things when you need to raise VC and you know change your narrative and so I you know there's so
44:32
much left to build but I think that what we've built so far is a testament to like yes we prioritize the things that people pay for first and that took us to default a lot >> how much of that revenue is the deadline candle which I desperately need uh [laughter] I saw you were sewing these candles. >> Ellis showed me this. Do you have one? >> Ellis showed me this. Do you have one?
44:51
>> I was doing I was doing one today.
44:51
Um I was writing uh a like a thing that I'm going to publish soon.
44:56
Um and I love my deadline candle.
45:00
>> It looks like you did it very fast because that candle's barely burnt.
45:03
>> Yeah, the candle's barely there.
45:03
Listen, you'd be surprised what happens when you light a candle and in 15 15 minutes when the deadline candle is lit up is like 2 hours and non candle time.
45:16
>> So, you either get a deadline candle or a full pack of Zins.
45:18
Can you tell us where that idea came from and what it is for those who haven't seen it?
45:25
>> The candle or the Zen?
45:27
>> Yeah, [laughter] I said Zins.
45:28
Oh, >> if you have four hours to get a project done.
45:34
>> Well, the deadline candle is literally a candle that says deadline on it.
45:37
And it's it was just inspired by this idea that creativity requires constraints.
45:45
That creativity is better with a deadline.
45:46
And I think, you know, Sublime is all about celebrating creativity, collecting things, but damn, like do something with that.
45:52
Light a deadline candle and like, you know, get get to work.
45:56
And yeah, but I think more broadly the deadline candle comes from it's like you like the thing that works these days is you have to do things that people remember like see Alex remembered the deadline candle.
46:09
How many like what are you scrolling all the time like what do you remember that you scrolled on today?
46:14
Like for the most part nothing.
46:17
And so I I just think so much of building a company like Sublime in this day and age is about just like I don't think there's a playbook.
46:26
You just keep doing things that are memorable.
46:28
You know, >> uh the thing I remember from my feed today is that I posted some beautiful film photos and some guy told me that they were [ __ ] but that my kid is still cute.
46:38
So, uh that's what I remember from my timeline today.
46:41
It's just so it's just so tragic that you know the negative stuff makes such a bigger mark on you in terms of your memories.
46:48
And I mean that's like what interests me about these types of products whether they're like more positive social products like retro the uh kind of friendsly you know Instagrammy photo sharing thing or daily productivity tools like I just got a Hobonichi notebook.
47:04
I mean it just it it becomes very clear at the end of the day or even at the end of the morning if you spend it using those types of tools or not.
47:15
Um here's here's my next question for you though which is that I think historically a lot of like the knowledge management tools or even the private social tools um have people just kind of haven't built a habit hate to say because there isn't as much feedback you know from people whether it's likes comments otherwise as they get elsewhere.
47:34
How do you keep that that feedback loop rolling?
47:37
Not necessarily even from from others, but even for yourself to keep creating.
47:42
I mean, God, I've quit a hundred different notes or collecting tools over the years. >> Totally. Totally.
47:49
I mean, yeah, I think that's a fair question.
47:50
I mean the way that I that I sort of look at it is I if you cultiv like I think investing in a curated references library the feedback loop has to come from the impact that that will generate on your life and so for example like I have a collection of emails that I have received that are really good I call it it's a the collection is called got.
48:21
So it's basically like things that like effectively sold me.
48:24
I was like, "Ah, like I I want this."
48:26
And so I'm collecting instances on the internet where I was effectively sold something.
48:33
And so the next time I'm going to put together some copy, I'm going to go to that collection and I'm going to hit the chat button on Sublime and I'm going to open up Claude or Chatt window and I'm I'm going to be like, "Use these references as a way to help me do why."
48:50
And so I I think that that's where my my mind is like the the thing that that didn't exist in the past is all of this power.
48:58
But if you have taste and you can use AI tools effectively, you can generate impact.
49:02
And I refuse to add likes to sublime.
49:07
I think that it should be a quiet space >> for discovery.
49:12
Like that to me there's just like certain things that we will not compromise on >> and that's that's one of them, you know.
49:18
You will not go viral on Sublime, you know.
49:20
Oh, and I and actually that thing I think that's like a that's a feature, not a bug.
49:24
Um, so the the kinds of things that you come to do here are just fundamentally different.
49:29
And I think our job is to educate people. >> Yeah.
49:34
I mean, I hate to say I feel like I've heard, you know, values like that from so many people over the years, even early Instagram, early Tumblr, early Pinterest, early all of them.
49:45
I feel like it is wholesome and easy to say, you know, if I'm a user, like why do I believe you that you're going to be able to stay true to it?
49:53
I don't know if you ever saw uh my big buttth hurt um monologue on the verge called social media is doomed to die.
50:01
I guess a lot of it just comes back to like how much money you raise and thus the expectations you create for yourself.
50:09
But I mean that is one of the privileges of being a founder like company is you do get to make rules like that.
50:13
But when times get tough, you know what happens? >> Yeah.
50:18
I mean, I always come back to like because at the end of the day, like I could do whatever I want.
50:23
Like, you know, the only reason to trust me is like I'm asking you to trust me, but you know, I can I can get change my mind.
50:32
But I think >> I guess that's what the YouTube videos do, huh? >> Yeah.
50:35
I mean that there's there's a version of that.
50:37
But I really think that it's important to interrogate someone's motivation for doing something like legitimately with this product.
50:43
All I wanted was to solve something for myself.
50:49
I want this thing to exist in the world.
50:51
Doesn't mean that like you know eventually like if I wanted to build the fastest growing thing like yeah maybe I'll do that.
50:58
Maybe that's in the cards for me.
51:00
for this product specifically.
51:02
I think that my sort of job is to steward this responsibly so that it exists for the people to whom it is very meaningful and to continue to steward it in the right direction.
51:12
Now, yeah, this is why like people thought like the blockchain is trustless and this and that and I don't really buy that argument too much, but but yeah, fundamentally you're trusting people is is really what it comes down to with everything.
51:26
You can put Sublime on the blockchain and then it all comes home. [laughter] >> No, no.
51:31
P P P P P P P P P P P P P P P P P P P P PDD like I will I will not try anything blockchain related again.
51:35
I mean I will say like portability is a big thing for us, you know, like we make it so easy for you to like port like the whole premise of this tool is this is not meant to be a place where you're held captive here.
51:51
the idea that you take these things elsewhere to create things.
51:56
And so, you know, a lot of what we've done and what we continue to kind of orient the road map around is is portability. >> Yeah, props on that.
52:02
I actually had that written in my notes that the pro plan advertises uh export features like being able to dump your stuff, I think, into is it JSON or or whatever you want? I don't know how. Yeah. Into whatever you want.
52:18
And forever I feel like that has needed to be one of the digital rules of the web and of these services.
52:25
And I think for far too long these companies have just kind of gotten away with saying, "Oh, I don't really have the time to add an export feature or whatever."
52:34
But especially with, you know, increasing antitrust scrutiny on the big companies, you're starting to see more companies do it.
52:39
And I'm sure it makes you feel a little funny sometimes, but then the best product should win, right? >> Totally. Totally.
52:46
I mean it's it's it's table stakes I think for for something like us.
52:53
And I you know I I mean you mentioned Ellis at the beginning of the call how you know you're you're helping companies build create language that is different and sometimes like it it doesn't even matter if you're worse but like different is better than better.
53:09
[laughter] >> That's so true. That's so true.
53:09
>> That's so true. That's so true. like you know like that like there's a lot of things about Sublime that are so clunky but there's no other tool on the internet for this the kind of content that people add to Sublime where you can find similar ideas of this kind of
53:23
caliber and so that alone is you know is is the thing that people continue to come to us for even if it's worse on on other dimensions but I think where I'm going with this is I is you kind of see two kinds of founders or companies these days where in some cases it's a to the buck. I mean, you think of like Vzero,
53:41
I mean, you think of like Vzero, Bolt, Lovable, etc.
53:43
Like, for me, it's interchangeable.
53:46
I I mean, I kind of use them all, but it's like whatever charges like they're pretty interchangeable.
53:50
And I think part of what I'm trying to do with Sublime is we're we have this core software product, but we do events, we do merch, we do Zenes, we're building a world.
54:04
And I think as long as we don't betray our values and sensibilities, I think the the hope is that nobody can do sublime like we can do sublime.
54:11
They can do something kind of different, but but I you know I I just I don't know.
54:16
My strategy is like carve out my lane and chill is my is my business strategy.
54:24
>> I'm glad you brought that up.
54:24
That's why I was going to ask like what if someone just vibe codes their own version of Sublime, what do you do? it.
54:29
It's like, well, I've got the merch, I've got the Zen, I've got the everything, the network built around it.
54:34
Uh, you know, that that can't be vibe coded yet. >> Yeah. I mean, it's funny.
54:38
My my take on the, you know, the everyone's going to vibe code their own thing is like that to me brings a little bit like everyone is going to 3D print everything, you know, like the [laughter] or, you know, like like there's like so many things that are open source.
54:53
Like I can open source Sublime tomorrow.
54:55
You're not going to go through the pain of doing that.
54:58
that. like the amount of even with the advances in engineering tools etc like the number of edge cases and the maintenance required for these things so I sort of like my contrarian view is that is that like what's on my home screen you know linear slack Apple notes
55:19
like I don't have a single if I put a tool on my home screen personally I do you guys >> no yeah no I do not uh I mean Ellis worked with you Jenny at Wobby who's been on the show and I think they're doing really interesting things on mobile. But yeah, nothing I've seen
55:32
But yeah, nothing I've seen that's like home screen worthy yet.
55:36
>> Yeah, I mean I love I love what Wobby's doing.
55:38
I think it's I it like this idea of software as content I think is very interesting.
55:42
But I I feel pretty strongly that soft like software uh for for the big kind of recurring things we do in our lives.
55:53
Uh I'm not worried about that.
55:55
That said, like where a lot of where I'm investing my energy is we're doing a ton of events.
55:58
We're investing in relationships.
56:00
We're, you know, like it's it's the world building I think that that that is hard to replicate at the end of the day.
56:07
>> You also have a Substack and uh you know, as a relative newcomer to Substack myself, but where I'm kind of staking my future media uh career. Uh any any tips? Any tips?
56:19
What's your freeto paid ratio?
56:21
How do you think about growth, retention? open up the dashboard.
56:23
Uh, but no, seriously, you you're a you've been on there for a while and it seems like you've built a good audience on there.
56:31
And what have you always just been a writer?
56:32
Has that always been part of what you do?
56:34
Uh, or was it something you kind of made a concerted effort to do around the company?
56:40
>> Yeah, I mean, first of all, I started writing a a Subseek newsletter in 20 I don't know if it's 2019 or 2020, but I think I was like I was one of the first like people hanging out there. Um, it was very janky. It was very different. I I love writing.
56:56
I think that to for me I sort of like wrote my way into clarity on what I wanted to build is is really what it comes down to and and and I decided to open that process.
57:07
So like the entire history of building this company, you know, is accessible on Substack, you know.
57:13
Substack, you know. So somebody were to start today like are you going to do something with this brand new person you don't trust or are you going to go through past five six years of of history here and kind of see a trail of evidence of just like caring you know
57:28
like I think caring is a competit such a like strong competitive advantage these days like everything is so disposable uh but you asked about soft stack um yeah I mean they've built a network now so I I would say it's a big part of our distribution strategy like I'll give you an example something I did this week. >> I saw you guys have your your Substack
57:45
>> I saw you guys have your your Substack subscription as part of your lifetime Sublime.
57:51
>> Don't worry, we'll we'll turn the referrals on sources to Sublime after this.
57:54
We'll start referring to each other. >> Please do. Please do. Well, it's funny.
57:58
The only thing that's different about the basic plan on Sublime and the premium plus plan is the Substack subscription.
58:03
And a good number of people choose that. So, I don't know there.
58:07
I guess that that says something about the way people relate to the product is not just as a utility tool, which it is, but there's kind of more that they're getting.
58:16
But you asked about Substack.
58:17
It's interesting that here's something I did this week that has been very helpful.
58:23
So creator partnerships can be effective, but it's it's a little bit like it's a little bit of a wild west out there, right?
58:34
It definitely [clears throat] is, >> you know, like I don't know.
58:36
It's like like it it gives me a little bit of an ick.
58:39
So, >> unless you work with a trusted uh reporter who is authoritative in the space with a decade of experience, but yes, I [laughter] hear you, >> Alex. I mean, let's talk. Let's talk.
58:51
>> But I basically sent out a note on Substack and I said, I want to try an experiment.
58:55
I want to pay 10 writers $500 to write and you know, like Sublime will sponsor the newsletter.
59:02
will sponsor the newsletter. And I got like dozens and dozens of writers and good ones and essentially so yeah listen every era has its own like what are the opportunities to like but what is business you build something people want you find people who want that thing and so where do you find people today you know I feel like a lot
59:22
of the the playbook is like you know Facebook ads or Instagram ads are so expensive and SEO like you don't know if you know the AI box is going to kill your traffic anyways and so I don't know for Plus, I think Substack is an interesting place and I and I think we've been kind of early in exploring and we'll we you know, I think we'll continue to do stuff there because it's working. >> So, maybe I should create a software
59:41
>> So, maybe I should create a software company to tack onto my Substack to help my [laughter] Substack grow.
59:46
Is that what you're saying?
59:49
>> I think you should It's not a bad idea.
59:52
>> I mean, is that not one idea for the future, right?
59:55
future, right? Like I saw that in your lifetime subscription you also get access to your archives including your vision deck and even your raw Figma files and things like that like you're offering you've got the candle you've got the zenes events Figma files YouTube videos substacks like tech people don't understand that emote can even look like
1:00:18
that I feel like and one of the reasons they don't understand it I think is because they think of it all as kind of like brand or packaging or or whatever uh and they think, "Oh, if my product is similar to others, I'm just going to have to fight in the rat race to be 5% better and add better markdown support better than Sublime." But in reality
1:00:35
But in reality like there have been commoditized products for decades and decades and decades and they differentiate on experiences, brands, ideas, philosophies, opinions, all these reasons that allow things to give you hashtag meaning when you engage with uh that product, right?
1:00:55
And there's just so much more to do.
1:00:57
I think um I [clears throat] don't know uh how you feel about prioritizing all that stuff versus the software, but um it definitely seems like the way of the future.
1:01:07
>> Yeah, I mean it definitely feels like like the the software is the core, right?
1:01:12
But but that's the beauty of building a company right now is you could do a lot more, you know, like like a lot of these initiatives like the hard part is coming up with the ideas.
1:01:25
I think you know like I to to me there's this sort of like Thomas Edison famously said that genius is uh 1% inspiration 99% perspiration and I think it's sort of flipped where it's like now it's 99% inspiration 1% perspiration.
1:01:38
So if you have the ideas like you know and like they're good and they resonate with people like that's the hard part is coming up with things that will land with people that will move people that will compel people into action.
1:01:51
Once you have that like I don't know launching the deadline candle. Yeah.
1:01:55
Listen like sublime is engineers and me you know and like I yeah we we do all this stuff you know.
1:02:02
So it's interesting that you mentioned like a lot of tech companies don't understand that but I think that there's no better way to get attention than to be distinctive. >> Yeah.
1:02:16
My therapist told me this term individuation that I like using instead of the common selfactualization.
1:02:25
Little bit of a nuance there.
1:02:25
And uh I love any product that's trying to help people build themsel, you know.
1:02:30
Um whether it's a journal, like I worked with a company called Light Page recently that was a lot of fun.
1:02:36
And what it did was when you would journal about something, it wouldn't say you're so right.
1:02:43
it would send you quotes, articles, and art the next day that like relates.
1:02:49
And I'm like, banger, that's awesome, you know, and because it doesn't need to be like a massive VC back company and it can just be a handful of people like it feels more possible now to f build these funny hybrids.
1:03:02
I don't know if you are friendly with the every folks but um I've been subscribed to that kind of like the combination of interesting software and interesting newsletters and obviously you know all of our subscriptions will come and go.
1:03:16
Um but I think the combination is interesting for sure.
1:03:22
>> What's interesting is that a company like every I' I've spoken to Dan about this.
1:03:25
this. This is this is not the kind of company that fits neatly into a deck that gets approved by a committee to the like you know like none of these things like if we had a board that and I was like yeah we're going to make a deadline candle and like suddenly that thing goes
1:03:41
viral like I'm like how do you even quantify the fact that like this morning some someone became a lifetime member and then we ask in the field like how did you hear about us and he's like oh I bought your zen three years ago like [laughter] how do you quantify that you
1:03:57
know 3 years ago like the the tool fits into their life 3 years later and so I I don't know I just feel very strongly you have to know like it seems like a really good time for me or for everyone to look in the mirror and figure out what can you do not what are others doing but who are
1:04:23
you and what can you do and I think that's a very hard question to answer, but I think that for the most part, like you ask around like yes, there's a lot of content that I I don't think that amount of content is like matched by the amount of good stories. I mean, I'm
1:04:36
I mean, I'm preaching to the choir here, but but the reality is I think there's just such a darth of like why are you building this? Why you?
1:04:46
I really think that like look in the mirror thing is very hard to do these days because we're so exposed to what everyone is thinking and saying all the time you sort of forget like to listen to the sound of your own intuition.
1:05:00
But that's what I try to remind myself is is I I you know I it's very easy to have FOMO as you're building.
1:05:06
But if I sit and journal what are the things that have moved the needle for this product or company, they're usually the things that are true to us.
1:05:17
It's not us trying to be like, oh, everyone's hiring, you know, an 18-year-old Tik Tok UGC army to go flood the internet.
1:05:23
Like I don't think, you know, like I'm like, damn, that's Eve.
1:05:28
Like I we work very hard for, you know, for our default to live state.
1:05:33
state. like you know you see the guy who generated 60,000 users over a weekend vibecoded product with a you know Tik Tok UGC army how many of those people are going to be around in two five 10 years >> yeah I mean I think the conventional
1:05:49
wisdom in tech journalism and criticism is just you know it's going to destroy all these jobs and that'll kind of be that and I think you know we'll see how that shakes out but I've definitely become a lot more optimistic on the idea of people actually expanding what they create. I mean, me, for example, I've
1:06:07
I mean, me, for example, I've always thought of myself as a bit of a product designer in my heart, but because I couldn't use Figma, I couldn't do it, you know?
1:06:16
Now, I actually I don't feel like we're even quite there yet.
1:06:20
But soon, um, I'm going to be able to make whatever apps I want using my unique insights about life or about writing or about meaning or finding yourself.
1:06:29
Um, I also saw that you posted some stuff on I forget the name of it.
1:06:34
It's a site where you can like list your it's where you have your merch and stuff like that.
1:06:37
If I could easily create and ship a book, I would consider it, you know.
1:06:42
And I do think maybe that's the ultimate founder leverage no matter what you're making is just to think of what your ideas are um that are most interesting and then how many different expressions can it have?
1:06:53
Like I want to put my mantras on a hat or a shirt.
1:06:55
As soon as that's easy, I'll do it. >> Totally.
1:07:00
And but so and I think we're slowly getting to that world.
1:07:02
I mean, I I've like we're still not there, I think, with a lot the kind of precision and control that someone like you needs in terms of the the kind of fidelity of the final output, but I think we'll get there.
1:07:15
And what's what's interesting to me is that in that world, like to to me, it's sort of backwards to think, oh, I have to learn technical skills in order to be creative.
1:07:25
Why do I need to like learn technical skills to be creative?
1:07:30
like the the whole idea is that all you need to do is be creative and then the the idea is like it it seems like a really really great time for people who have I mean that the word obviously gets thrown a around a lot but but I think
1:07:44
this when I think of taste I just think of this bone deep feeling that you've made something good and I think for a lot of people to to make something good required a lot of money but if you have the vision in your head I yeah we need to tell better stories. Like I I I just
1:07:59
Like I I I just think that it's a tragedy that this is such an interesting time.
1:08:04
I think arguably this is the most compelling time in the history of technology philosophically and I think there are not enough people telling good stories about what that future could look like.
1:08:18
So uh with the little time we have left, I'm super curious to learn how you are raising your kids with technology uh so that I can follow your uh your your your uh your ideas here.
1:08:32
>> I have not hired uh anyone to teach my kids vibe coding.
1:08:34
My my listen my that's the beauty of living in Miami.
1:08:38
My kids are playing sports all the time. They're outdoors a lot.
1:08:42
I think that the thing that I try to I have a 10-year-old, by the way, and like we fight over his tech use, so I I'm still stumbling my way into fluency on these topics.
1:08:54
But I I think the thing the the world is changing and nobody knows what the heck the world will look like 10 or 20 years from now.
1:09:05
So, I'm not going to sit here and have a strong opinion on you should learn Python or not Python or V. I don't know.
1:09:12
But what I do know is that cultivating relationships, like relationships are everything.
1:09:19
And to me, that's the thing is like I've given them an incredible community.
1:09:24
We are part of an amazing world.
1:09:26
Like we feel like we're part of an incredible local community here.
1:09:29
And to me, like seeing that they have a vibrant like social life and incredible relationships, that that's it for me.
1:09:37
like as long as I give them that, you know, you you deal with uncertainty with your people, like everything else should fall into place.
1:09:44
>> I've certainly found that with my own daughter uh who's four and a half, she'd rather be going to a party uh in the community than playing on her iPad, you know, like a lot of this stuff is more fun, more rewarding, more fulfilling, and I think kids understand that.
1:10:04
Um, I'm definitely going to be interested to see though how the next wave treats social media, especially since it's becoming pretty, you know, common understanding now that we all do it cuz we feel like we have to.
1:10:16
Um, but the likes and, you know, the performance just feels like we're monetizing ourselves and trying to turn all of ourselves into a business.
1:10:26
And um yeah, I like your point though that it's like we kind of can't know right now.
1:10:35
>> We go from being extremely online to okay, let's go analog touch grass and I don't know like I I I don't know.
1:10:43
I tend to look at the world in shades of gray.
1:10:48
It's like we got to learn to live with technology.
1:10:49
We're not going to go swear off our phones and live in a farm like that.
1:10:54
You know, that's not what most people are going to do.
1:10:55
But how can we learn to live with this thing and and in healthy ways?
1:10:59
And I think I don't know for a long time like complaining to me feels pretty boring in general.
1:11:04
Like the idea of like I hate Twitter.
1:11:07
I'm going off Twitter and announcing that on Twitter.
1:11:12
>> Spoken like a true founder. Just build it. >> I don't know.
1:11:15
But I think parenting is a hard is a hard one in this day and age.
1:11:18
>> Well, I think we're almost out of time here.
1:11:20
Um, what haven't we covered, Siri?
1:11:24
What else is on your mind at the moment?
1:11:26
>> What else is on my mind?
1:11:28
>> Are second brains actually real?
1:11:31
>> Um, it's a good question.
1:11:31
Are second brains actually real?
1:11:34
Um, I I think that the biggest value to me of having this practice of just as we were talking about our relationship with social media, I feel like I just dip my toes on social media, pick the things that are interesting to me and I bring them back and I workshop them.
1:11:59
That's a very human, that's a very intentional process.
1:12:01
I like the sublime brand and like my style is not like I'm not promising some crazy efficiency like utopia like so I personally we've attached to this language but I I tell my team that in 10 years we will have been successful if people talk about a sublime library as a category not as a second brain you know digital garden or whatever.
1:12:32
Jimmy Buffett famously said that it's he said it's ironic that I was never categorizable and now I'm a category.
1:12:43
And I I feel like I want I'm excited to graduate from the era of oh sublime is a second brain.
1:12:49
Some people say it's a second brain with a soul.
1:12:51
Like no, you know, like the world right now is so devoid of wonder and a sublime library has to be like a a a new category.
1:12:59
But again, head in the clouds, feet on the ground.
1:13:05
So, it'll take us 10 years to get there.
1:13:09
>> I'm so happy Jimmy Buffett has officially graced the pod.
1:13:11
Well, thank thank you so much for joining us. Uh it's been a blast. All the best.
1:13:16
And uh yeah, we we'll see you in various places, shapes, and forms on the internet.
1:13:23
I would think >> this is so fun that you guys are funny. >> Thank you, Siri. >> Thank you.
1:13:32
And that is it for this week's show.
1:13:34
>> Don't forget to like, subscribe everywhere you get podcasts. We are access.
1:13:38
show on the interwebs uh for all those links.
1:13:41
And you can find us in video.
1:13:42
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1:13:42
If you like this episode, leave a fivestar review, clip it to your sublime, thumbs it up, and share with a friend.
1:13:54
You could find me at Hamburger on Twitter and at meaning.
1:13:55
com for your startup storytelling needs.
1:13:58
And you can find my newsletter at sources. news.
1:14:04
>> Access is part of the Vox Media Podcast Network and this show is produced by Hooked Creators. >> Bye-bye. >> Bye.