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3:11
>> [music] >> You came to this world.
3:22
We came to this world to see a future. We came to this world.
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[music] the stars [music] to shape our future.
3:47
[music] We came to feel the new.
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[music] Good morning, Chad. Good morning, Roman. Good morning, Bobby. Good morning, Daniel. Good morning, Riv.
4:03
Good morning, Techno Chief.
4:05
Good morning, double MVP. Good morning, Gabe. Good morning, John. It's great to see you.
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We missed you guys yesterday.
4:35
>> [music] >> The Fed cut.
4:41
[music] >> Good morning, Nicholas Shawa. Good morning, Josh. Good morning, Amola.
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[music] >> You're watching TVPN.
4:56
Today is Wednesday, October 29th, 2025.
4:58
We are live from the TVP Ultradome, >> the fortress of finance, >> the temple of technology, >> the capital of capital. >> Uh, 1X. >> Look what I got here. Oh, yeah. What do you have? >> Look what I got here.
5:09
Our dear friend Siki Chen, friend of the show, made a hot sauce for his company, Runway, and he sent it to us.
5:17
Uh, Runway is has so much cash on their balance sheet that they made a hot sauce called Burn Rate. >> Okay.
5:26
and it has a real $100 bill as part of the uh packaging. So, thank you to Siki.
5:36
>> This is incredible because >> I mean the execution here is crazy.
5:37
I mean, look at look at this box.
5:38
I don't think we've ever seen >> So, he really he really gave us a hundred bucks here. This is remarkable.
5:44
Uh >> except of course you can never spend it. >> It is. Wait, why not?
5:47
I mean, you technically could.
5:48
You could technically >> because I owe I owe someone $100 or I'm going to owe someone $100 by the end of the week because I made a side bet on whether you >> I was making a bet on something and then John made a derivative bet >> on whether or not Jordy would win his bet and it's not under [laughter] is not looking good.
6:08
Uh, and so yeah, you're going to need >> send this over to to Dylan O'Ba, who I probably owe $100 by the end of the >> uh but uh but very very cool activation from uh Seiki and the runway team and uh thank thank you for sharing. I won't spend it.
6:23
We'll keep it here on the desk.
6:25
>> I will be >> John will be John will be using to pay off my gambling debts.
6:30
>> Uh but anyways, it's good to be back.
6:30
Uh we missed missed everyone in the chat yesterday when we're on the road.
6:34
We don't have a visual of the chat.
6:35
and we are very very happy to be back.
6:38
Uh the Fed uh 2 minutes ago came out and announced um >> that the Fed cut barn cost by a quarter of a percentage point for the second >> the studio [applause] goes crazy.
6:52
>> The studio goes crazy. Let's go.
6:53
>> Nothing like cutting into froth.
6:53
Um yeah, warm it up a little bit, John.
7:00
>> Okay, you kind of went to the top side there.
7:03
That That wasn't >> We have this Gog issue where if I hit it right in the center, >> it rings for a really long >> and I think if I if I hit it here, it doesn't >> Yeah. All right.
7:13
Well, >> kind of an ominous hit.
7:15
I will say it wasn't it wasn't it wasn't that pure, but u >> but anyways, this this is what what Polymer Market had uh going into this.
7:25
They they had it at 99% uh chance of a 25 uh basis point >> uh cut and uh they were correct. So >> yeah.
7:34
>> So if you had if you had a $100,000 riding on that 99% bet, you would have made roughly $1,000. >> Something like that.
7:43
>> That could be a really good strategy if you're down a,000 bucks. Could win it all back. [laughter] >> Like me. Like me right now. >> Yeah.
7:51
>> Um uh anyways, >> let me tell you about ramp. com. Time is money. Save both.
7:55
Easy to use corporate cards, bill pay accounting, and a whole lot more all in one place.
7:58
Uh the 1X robot launched and it's burning up the timeline. People love it. People hate it.
8:05
People have breaking news.
8:05
It's tea operated, folks. It's tea operated.
8:09
It's not an end to end AI machine learning model.
8:13
And people are people are people are saying that like it's breaking news.
8:17
But >> they're saying that the demos that have been given so far teller operated, but I don't think >> I just don't think that's a scoop.
8:21
I don't think that's a scoop. Wait, no.
8:22
I think they're going to ship a tea operated robot.
8:24
I think that's the point.
8:26
>> It's entirely teleoperated.
8:27
>> I think the pitch Yeah.
8:27
Tyler, you break it down. >> Okay.
8:29
So, so in the video, um, it seems like there's a lot of tasks that it can do like fully autonomously and then there's some tasks which are a little bit more complex that you can use expert mode. Okay.
8:37
Which is when, uh, someone will basically be >> like observing the robot as it's doing the thing and then it can I assume that they can like interfere.
8:45
>> It seems like it seems like you can pay a human to be in VR and operate your robot for you to do things that it can't just do um, automatically.
8:52
And I I don't know the like the the back and forth here.
8:58
So Joanna Stern at the wall in the at the Wall Street Journal got a whole demo of it.
9:03
Said, "I tried the robot that's coming to live with you. It's still part human.
9:06
Uh, first it needs to be controlled by a human in your home. Is that cool with you?"
9:11
Obviously there's privacy discussions here.
9:12
Um, the big like bombshell post right now is from uh MKBHD who got 12,000 likes on a post saying, "So, to be clear, this is a pre-order for a humanoid home robot that will cost $20,000 or $500 per month when it maybe ships next year, and it's currently not finished.
9:32
Joanna Stern got to do a demo and in its current state, uh, 100% of its actions are tea operated."
9:39
So, of the tests that she did, >> that's Yeah, >> they were tea.
9:42
All the impressive stuff is >> but I think anybody that's buying the robot today or pre-ordering it assumes that there will be some task that it can do that's non-teloperated. >> Sure. I don't really know.
9:54
I I don't think people will be buying it because of that.
9:59
I think people will buy it and say, "Yeah, I'm paying 20K and then I'm also paying $2 an hour for someone to teleoperate this thing and actually do the dishes effectively and sit there until the dishes are done as opposed to Yeah, it has some like basic stuff. I can chat with it.
10:14
I don't think people will will will be driven by that.
10:16
will will will be driven by that. And also I just don't think that the whole I it's basically being framed as this like big reveal like oh it's actually tea operated when I think that it's just that's not that much of a >> no I'm I'm a huge teleoperation bowl I
10:32
think that it's even even if you're just thinking about a use case for somebody who's like yeah every once in a while I come home late and I want to put food in my dog's bowl and I can just teleoperate my robot and go >> oh teleoperate your own robot I haven't teleerating your own robot like, "Oh, I'm coming home in a little bit. I want
10:47
I want to like open the window.
10:49
I want to open like the >> the the a door to bring in some air or something like that."
10:54
So, >> um I do think it's I do think it's >> Oh, look.
10:57
You can tell operate a Porsche.
10:58
You put the robot in the Porsche and then you were driving the car. >> There we go.
11:04
>> Remotely, I'm sure there won't be any problem operating operating the three pedals.
11:09
So >> at 75 mph, >> somebody if somebody maybe had a few too many drinks, >> you could put this in.
11:14
>> And so they legally couldn't operate a vehicle.
11:16
Could they teleoperate on their phone a robot that was driving the vehicle? >> Absolutely.
11:22
They were sitting in the passenger seat.
11:26
>> Officer, I was >> I was teller operating.
11:28
>> I've just been sitting here on my phone. I don't know.
11:30
>> You got to take this up with him.
11:32
>> I love the idea of >> Okay. So So here's the things. Here's the thing.
11:35
Let's play out a scenario.
11:36
So, so one I I I think I love that this robot looks unique.
11:39
I think they have like a I I love the color choices >> uh that they've used.
11:44
It's very kind of like SKIMS adjacent almost like they've created a whole kind of cool brand world.
11:50
>> Yeah, it definitely feels like >> this is a new take on a robot.
11:52
Um and and and they're going for cute, >> but if this thing is being teleoperated in your kitchen, let's say it's loading like uh dirty dishes from your sink. Yeah.
12:06
>> into the or from your table into your dishwasher.
12:11
>> And then it picks up a big knife. >> Mhm.
12:14
>> And it just starts moving over and then it just pauses there.
12:16
You look over at your robot and it's just sitting there looking at you like this with a [laughter] kn with a knife in its hand.
12:23
Are you not going to >> get a little freaked out?
12:24
Is this thing This thing looks cute, but the second it's got like a kitchen knife in its hand and it's looking at you, does it really look that cute? >> Is it cute?
12:33
I think it's the cutest robot, the cutest humanoid robot I've seen demoed.
12:39
The question is like, yeah, that there's like this uncanny valley of like actually going cute because like I don't I don't have a problem with just a like I I I think if you went to the Optimus team and you went to and you went to Elon and you said like, "Hey, what's your goal for the design of Optimus?"
12:56
I don't know that Elon would say, "It's my goal to make it cute."
13:01
He might be like, "No, it's like the Cybert truck is not designed to be a cute little Volkswagen be beetle.
13:07
Like, it's meant to look cool and badass and like and awesome, right?
13:11
It's meant to look sick."
13:13
Uh, and I and I think that there are different there are different like optimization vectors to actually go down.
13:19
The 1x team is clearly going down the cute route, but that doesn't necessarily mean that that's like >> the actual solution to what will get adoption. >> So, I don't know.
13:30
I think that they I would give this like an eight out of 10 on the cute scale.
13:35
>> Um, but >> I'm giving it an eight out of 10, too, until it picks up the kitchen knife >> and then it goes down.
13:42
>> I'm just saying I'm saying in certain context is going to look really scary. All >> human.
13:46
So So yeah, but but like walk through that like what >> something about an eyes eye without a mouth >> eye without a mouth is is maybe an odd choice. Yeah. >> Yeah.
13:55
I mean it just looks it looks fundamentally a little bit demonic not having any other feature.
14:01
>> If you add the mouth then you get more uncanny valley, right?
14:03
Isn't that the risk that as you >> One thing I don't understand is the pricing strategy.
14:08
So >> $499 [snorts] a month. >> Yep. >> Or 20 grand. >> Yep.
14:14
Who pays the 20 grand when you could get Do you think this thing will be the best robot you could possibly have for 40 months straight when there's a bunch of companies coming online with robots?
14:26
Like wouldn't the default be like, "Okay, humanoids are going to progress rapidly.
14:31
I'd rather like effectively lease one and know that in 40 months I could get one that's going to be like significantly better."
14:41
>> Yeah, I would definitely be a leaser.
14:43
I'd be happy to be a lead, sir. >> Just like Satia. >> Yeah.
14:45
Uh, let me tell you about Reream.
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14:50
Uh, Tyler, what what you're not afraid of this thing? >> It's sick. Well, no.
14:54
Okay, so a couple reasons I'm not afraid of it.
14:56
Um, >> one, it's pretty small, right?
14:58
It's only 60 pounds, right? >> Yeah. 60 lb. It's 66 lb. >> Oh, true.
15:02
You could totally like roundhouse kick this thing out the window.
15:07
>> Tiny little, you know, guy. You can push him over. >> Okay.
15:09
Um, also it seems I mean nothing I haven't seen any videos of it like really moving quickly at all. >> Okay.
15:16
>> So I I'm not afraid that it's gonna like get the jump on me. Yeah. If it has the knife.
15:20
I I think I can run faster than it. >> Yeah.
15:23
>> And yeah, I guess I I would be a little bit scared if it's being teleoperated.
15:26
I don't know who who's teleoper.
15:29
>> What about in your sleep? >> H >> lock the door.
15:32
[laughter] Yeah, you could just lock this thing in in in like a closet in the at night or something. Can't really get out.
15:41
>> I mean, it's going to be a whole new world when people are like, you know, I'm going to sleep.
15:44
I'm paying expert mode to have my, you know, somebody in my house with the humanoid.
15:49
>> I mean, I I I'm just not that worried about it because like um it has been possible to like the the like there was some movie about this where like uh the AI Oh, it's Fast and Furious.
15:58
In Fast and Furious like doesn't isn't there an AI that takes Oh, no. you won't know.
16:03
But uh I think that there's an AI that takes over the cars and like drives the cars fast and like crashes the cars.
16:10
There's been other movies where like the Teslas have been teleaoperated to crash into each other.
16:13
There was that movie about the about like the doomsday where they all go in the bunker.
16:19
I forget what movie this is, but um there's someh What movie is that?
16:24
I think Obama produced it.
16:26
I'm not kidding about that.
16:26
Uh the >> is it Don't Look Up. It's not don't look up.
16:32
It was like from the same era. What was it?
16:34
>> Leave the world behind. >> Is that it? >> No, it's not. Leave the world behind. Oh, wait. Yeah, it is.
16:38
It's Leave the World Behind. Yeah.
16:40
And there's that scene where all the Teslas are are coming and they're all crashing into each other.
16:45
Like that's been possible for a while, but the economic incentives are just such that like no one's actually been able to just like like there's no one out there that's just like, "Oh, I just want to like kill someone randomly and I'm going to hack all of Tesla's system to like take over your car."
17:02
Uh it just it it feels like something that's like definitely possible, but it would require like billions of dollars to actually take over.
17:13
And at the end of the day, a lot of people just want to make money.
17:14
And so they're like, if I have the ability to go and and hack into Tesla's network and steal the cars, it's like, I can probably just build a car company or something.
17:24
>> So, some more uh we're we're not, you know, neoactual media here, but uh I do have some facts here from their FAQ.
17:32
Will my Neo be fully autonomous?
17:32
Neo works autonomously by default for any chore request it doesn't know.
17:36
You can schedule a 1x expert to guide it, >> helping Neo learn while getting the job done.
17:43
Uh who are the 1X experts?
17:43
1X employees physically present in the USA.
17:46
Okay, so that's interesting.
17:48
Um and then they're also manufacturing NEO in California, which is significant.
17:55
So >> my sense is that uh the unit economics on these are going to be like really really really rough >> initially. >> Yeah.
18:04
>> Because these youx experts in the USA are by default going to be making a lot more than like $2 an hour >> minimum wage.
18:09
But I guess it it uh you know it it's gonna allow Neo to just get better at a variety of tasks.
18:15
And so they would be training people to tell her operate or they'd be paying people to tell her operate them anyways. >> Yeah.
18:23
>> And at least they can recoup uh a little bit of the cost.
18:26
>> It's going to be really expensive.
18:26
>> It's going to be really expensive. This was like the end of my take was like the the magic here is like it's half actually figure out the technology and half like financial engineering because you have to do this extremely delicate
18:41
dance where you keep the capital coming in and burn and burn and burn and you're probably burning more every year for a really long time and then at the end you get the incredible reward but you have to burn for so long get and and we saw this with we saw this with Whimo. Whimo
18:56
Whimo was founded in 2009.
18:59
It's been 16 years and like [snorts] there's been some report that like San Francisco >> they're never going to get the cars cheap enough. >> Exactly.
19:09
In San Francisco, I think they do have positive unit economics in this like very one in this narrow area.
19:13
Uh but it's not like a cash cow yet.
19:16
It's not Google search, right?
19:19
Which which took like two years before it was thrown off cash basically.
19:23
Not really, but uh but certainly not 16 years to scale that business.
19:29
And then uh you look at VR, how much money has Mark Zuckerberg invested in the metaverse?
19:33
How much has how much money has Reality Labs burned without gener without it turning into a cash cow?
19:41
Like they're not they're still not making money off of Reality Labs.
19:42
Um and it was the same thing with AI.
19:45
Like you look at the Sachin Nadella deal like the $1 billion in 2019.
19:49
like that business was not making money and it had been around for five years already.
19:53
The company was founded in what 2015 I think >> OpenAI and so or the nonprofit was.
19:58
And so you have you have these when you're going after these like frontier technologies, these really broad moonshots, you just wind up burning money for a decade potentially.
20:10
And can you stay in the game as a venturebacked company? It's really really hard.
20:15
But at the same time, these types of moonshots are exactly what venture capitalists should be going after.
20:20
Like this is the goal of venture capital.
20:22
Uh quickly, let me tell you about privy wallet infrastructure for every bank.
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20:35
>> It's interesting that uh figure AI uh Figure Robotics has has uh pivoted their marketing, external marketing at least, to being entirely focused on home help. Yes.
20:45
So the homepage now it says the future of home help is here.
20:47
Figure 3 is a general purpose humanoid robot for every day. >> Yes.
20:53
>> Um so >> wildly different than Boston Dynamics.
20:56
So if you look at Boston Dynamics websites uh they're saying we are trusted as one of the top robotics companies by DHL, BP, National Grid, Woodside Energy, Marque.
21:06
like they went industrial level.
21:10
They went enterprise and uh and they even have some that are like threeaxis robotic arms.
21:15
Uh and then they do have the robot dog and they say, "Yeah, let let the dog walk around and pick up trash or or or or check in on, you know, the uh the quality of your of your you know, oil and gas infrastructure or your mine.
21:30
You know, walk around and and and assess and do surveys.
21:34
Um, and >> Boston Dynamics is apparently 80% owned by Hyundai. >> Yeah.
21:41
>> And Soft Bank owns the other 20%. >> Yeah.
21:44
>> It's such a remarkable uh company cuz Google owned it at one point, I believe.
21:49
Um, and it's changed hands a few times, but never really found like a flywheel to take off.
21:55
Um, but they've definitely like manufactured like real robots.
21:58
It's more just about have they found the actual flywheel for will people are they solving a problem that's really widespread and can they sell the robot and then funnel the money back into selling more of the robots and and get something really w really really broadly deployed.
22:17
Uh it hasn't really happened yet.
22:20
Um but I mean they should be in a good position to to do it.
22:22
good position to to do it. uh the the the sort of like black belt I suppose is that uh Boston Dynamics was never really set up as this like okay we're going to do the the big transformer model the endtoend machine learning model we're going to let you know scale we're going
22:37
to be aligned with with the scale of the training run uh very much more so on the actual like let's design the algorithms and and choreograph the movements more than let uh lean into like the bitter lesson like it it the Boston Dynamics feels like a pre-bitter lesson pilling company or something like that. Um but
22:56
Um but uh I mean figure AI claims to have done endtoend machine learning no tell operation for household tasks like that is the core claim of figure and but I think what's different is that they're not letting I don't think that figures let the Wall Street Journal take it for a spin and I also don't think that they've actually put up a website where you can just uh buy one or at least um put down a reservation.
23:24
So this does feel like 1x is moving more aggressively than figure towards actually delivering something >> shipping. >> Yeah. Towards shipping. Exactly.
23:33
Um the other the other interesting thing about this this >> Yeah.
23:38
Uh you know I'm I'm expecting we'll see more fundraising uh news out of oneax. Yeah.
23:45
There's rumor that the pressure going to raise it 10 billion.
23:48
the pressure from the pressure on figure to perform who's already marked uh valued by by their latest investors at close to 40 billion.
23:59
>> 40 billion that's >> uh you know they they they don't have uh uh they got to really come I mean figure three whatever robot they ship is going to um be heavily reviewed.
24:09
Yeah, it is it is odd setting the expectations that like we're already on the third iteration, but I guess I guess they have said that they've shipped because they've shipped to that BMW plant and they've done some different tests here and there, >> which uh the journal had coverage this year earlier on what was actually happening at the BMW plant.
24:31
>> Yeah, that said it was like mostly teleoperated sort of like narrow.
24:32
It was not like oh yeah BMWs are now >> figure like did they sue the German or they they sued Fortune? fortune. Is that it?
24:42
>> They had to defend >> they had to defend their business practices. >> Yeah.
24:46
Um but yeah, I mean the the vibes at 1X are great.
24:49
I think people are enjoying it and it seems like they've been I don't know.
24:54
They've just been upfront about the way that they're building the company, what they're doing. They haven't been it.
25:00
It feels like they 1X has never been over their skis in terms of promises, which is why I think my reaction to the MKBHD post was >> and they were always focused.
25:11
They were always on the on the phone or sorry, sorry, focus on the home. >> Yeah. Yeah. Focus on the home.
25:16
Um, but yeah, I mean, I think I think MKBHD is is correct in his assessment that like it is risky to go put down $20,000 for a product that hasn't shipped and and isn't really live and like there's a lot of promises around.
25:30
This happens all the time.
25:32
And from MKBHD's perspective, he's looking at his his audience of uh consumer electronics buyers and saying, "Well, my audience got burned by the Rabbit R1.
25:44
They got burned by the the humane AI pin.
25:47
They got burned by friend where there were a number of like AI hardware companies that made really broad >> that were like a couple hundred bucks. >> Exactly.
25:56
But even then from the MKBHD perspective, the the claims the marketing claims when the product was announced did not match what MKBHD reviewed when he got the product.
26:06
And this happened a few times.
26:08
Uh, I'm not sure about the exact companies, but this happened a few times where where someone stood on stage and said, "This thing is going to be amazing at doing X, Y, and Z."
26:20
MKBHD reviews it and he's like, "It barely does that."
26:22
And so, I understand where he's coming from saying like, "Hey, this is a pre-order. It's a lot of money.
26:28
Uh, it's the product's not done, and it's currently teleoperated.
26:30
Like don't go into this thinking that you're getting Wall-E this or like some super AGI robot.
26:38
Like you got to be careful and you got to know that this is like maybe devkit level results.
26:42
I >> I just think I think this feels like a it will be a polished >> enough product for hardcore enthusiasts and kind of hackers. >> Yeah.
26:55
>> And I think that that is probably the right go to market here.
26:58
people that are understand, hey, this thing is not going to do everything out of the box immediately. >> Yeah.
27:04
>> I'm going to help have to work on making it it better. Yeah. >> Training it.
27:09
>> Uh but if it can get if it can reliably like clean up after dinner. >> Yeah.
27:14
>> Or put away the kids toys, you know.
27:14
Uh I think every every parent deals with this.
27:19
Like, you know, if my kids are are in the house for more than 20 minutes, there's just like toys everywhere.
27:25
We have to put this guy in the seat of a 911. >> We'll do it.
27:33
We We'll be the first to do >> uh 1x team.
27:36
We volunteer to be the first people to track a Neo.
27:39
So I love this post from Matt Slottnik who's been on a tear.
27:46
Uh he he quoted the announcement and said, "Can't wait to hook this bad boy up to a reasoning model in 11 Labs and send it door to door selling knives."
27:54
The funny thing is like it is it already is kind of hooked up to a reasoning model and I believe it speaks and whatnot.
28:01
It definitely has the ability to to you get you get most of the AI assistant the current state-of-the-art AI assistant stuff out of the box which could actually be beneficial in the same way that you know you have an Amazon Echo or uh Apple's new tabletop robot.
28:15
uh having just having an an always on LLM around is a benefit to some people even if it's just walking around just kind of looking cute.
28:24
cute. Um >> my my so so something I >> my my my expectation here and I don't say this to be negative is every you know all these products have to start somewhere they just have to get into home start doing work start getting that feedback start getting more more training data
28:41
>> but I my my concern is that having a humanoid in the first at least few years will be like having a fouryear-old >> helping you where like a four-year-old y old can like pick up stuff from uh a four-year-old can do a lot of things, but they're not necessarily like super efficient, right? They can be slow. They They can be slow. They can be distracted. They can just stop.
29:07
>> I'm just imagining being like, "Oh, yeah. Wow.
29:09
I just had like a fantastic dinner.
29:11
20 of my closest friends came over.
29:13
We had dozen bottles of wine. It was great.
29:17
Hey, Neo, uh, can you clean those 25 wine glasses up?"
29:23
>> [laughter] >> And it's like just >> no problem, boss. Smash, smash, smash.
29:27
Just shattering everything and just like slipping on the glass and like falling down.
29:32
One of the in one of the marketing videos they have the Neo like carrying boxes around the house like after the the owner >> and >> you can just imagine like if you're trying if you if you ask like a four-year-old, yeah, just pick up that those three boxes [laughter] and carry them upstairs with me.
29:48
It's like they're dropping them all over the place, you know?
29:54
>> No, I mean I I I think that uh like it's definitely you you're you're you use the phrase like you're training this thing and I think like you are this feels like almost like the Oculus DK2 the de developer kit 2.
30:07
It's like if you do this, if you sign up for this, you should see it as you're helping pull forward the future.
30:15
You're basically giving them training data.
30:17
You got to be ready for the rough edges.
30:20
You got to go into this knowing that you're the you're the early adopter, but you're supporting something that's really really cool.
30:28
>> You're a part of creating the future. >> Yeah, exactly.
30:30
And so there's a lot that's uh that that's really cool to like >> box in the chat.
30:34
They should sell this to elder care centers and max out the Medicare reimbursement box. Not even joking.
30:40
Uh I could see that uh hopefully hopefully doing that uh within within the guidelines.
30:45
Um, well, if you want a humanoid robot for software engineering, head over to Cognition.
30:51
They're the makers of Devon, the AI software engineer.
30:55
Crush your backlog with your personal AI engineering team. It's a whole team. Um, what else?
30:59
Wireless says, "Buy the robot, get hired as a remote robot operator, become your own robot, get paid to do chores, and chill in your own [laughter] house." What >> insurance?
31:15
That's actually hilarious. >> Behind the rev.
31:18
>> This is the job of the future, folks. [laughter] >> Yeah. So, you go to work.
31:20
No, that just depends on what their economics are because if they have negative unit economics, you can go work at 1x.
31:29
>> Maybe it's a good way to get health insurance.
31:30
>> It is it is fascinating that they're that they're hiring uh the remote operators in the United States.
31:35
Obviously that like over time you would imagine that even if it's not 1x someone will be doing remote tell operation across border and that looks like the you know de-industrialization story all over again.
31:48
I would imagine that it becomes a political issue at the same time it's not going to become a political issue until there's like hundreds of thousands of these in the streets.
31:57
streets. Um >> yeah and I I I I still think that even a competent humanoid that can be teleaoperated by itself can be ma can be a total game changer because >> what if you want to be able to let's say somebody needs to like look after a parent right >> if you can if you can buy them like you
32:20
know a robot put it in their home and if they need help with something you can just >> teleport If your parent wants to go for a canyon run, [laughter] >> you can take them out >> on a Sunday, you can have the robot drive the >> 99 [laughter] 992 >> GT3 RS >> GT3 RS through the canyons. >> Two [laughter]
32:40
>> Two [laughter] >> two. Sorry, Tyler.
32:42
Uh but but also but also more more seriously it's like if you if you could hire in LA >> like uh house cleaners today get paid a much probably higher rate than some random place elsewhere in America, right?
32:56
And so somebody could live elsewhere but like be a house cleaner in LA. >> It's interesting. Yeah.
33:02
>> And >> yeah, it's the same it's the remote it's the remote work story.
33:05
It becomes a global labor pool.
33:06
That's a huge supply shock. So prices go down.
33:08
None of this happens overnight.
33:11
Uh, but eventually it will become a hot button issue.
33:13
Uh, Tyler, what are you thinking?
33:15
>> I would like to see them go the Uber route, right?
33:17
You saw those tasks that drivers can do in between rides.
33:19
So then they can just put on the VR headset if they don't have a ride currently.
33:23
Then they just teleoperate for a little bit and then, >> you know, maybe they're they're only halfway through their task when the when the next drive comes in.
33:29
So then someone else just behind the robot.
33:33
So it could be multiple people. >> That's true. Yeah. I don't know.
33:35
It's going to be interesting.
33:40
Abdul says, "Zuckerberg's clanker watching yours and your wife's clanker in 2035."
33:44
[laughter] Oh, there's a clanker outside the outside the window. Yes.
33:48
Uh, clankers are going to be the the clanker slurs are going to be through the roof over the next few years.
33:54
Um, all the experts are at the 1x offices. Very smart move by them.
34:00
I feel like this is uh this is this is a very very uh like like shrewd move because like if if they were saying even no matter where they pick if it wasn't America uh it would just be a political football immediately.
34:13
I mean, we saw, did you see Bernie Sanders talking about friend. com? >> You saw this. This is crazy.
34:18
It's like, like AI has not even broken through meaningfully.
34:24
And yet politicians recognize that robots are coming and even if Avi isn't the one who has it completely dialed, like the idea of talking to an AI is already a political issue, which is just remarkable.
34:37
Um, that's why you should stick to Figma.
34:41
Think bigger, build faster.
34:41
Figma helps design and development teams [applause] build great products together.
34:44
We can get started for free.
34:46
Uh Dalton Caldwell hit the timeline to share that WhatNot from YC Winter 2020 is now a decacorn. >> Congratulations.
34:58
>> Whatnot has raised $225 million at an 11. 5 billion valuation.
35:00
The company plans to announce on Tuesday. Yep.
35:04
>> Uh which they announced yesterday.
35:04
The round comes less than a year after the e-commerce platform raised 265 million at half that valuation and puts its total fundraising at about 968 million.
35:15
So, uh again, this is LA based company. >> Awesome.
35:18
>> Uh I believe um >> and uh >> we've heard about the online shopping stuff.
35:23
>> It seems like live shopping might finally be working >> in America.
35:26
We've heard about it in China.
35:28
Oh, it's so massive in China.
35:28
We were wondering when it would come to America.
35:31
America. uh it feels like it must have came to >> it's interesting that it seems like it's working in C it's not working in as broad as broad of a set of categories as in China like in China people will just straight up buy like vegetables they'll be like
35:48
>> sell people be selling coconuts live streaming here it's like trading cards sports cards >> various collectible toys thrift type stuff coins >> never used whatnot and I don't know many people that have But they must have found some powerful niche because uh 10 billion's no joke. I wonder where it I wonder where it lands.
36:07
I wonder if this is like a Snapchat size business or if this can really grow into something that's Amazon, Walmart style, like massive massive massive.
36:16
I mean clearly like they've done a lot of things, right?
36:18
Um but uh you know interesting to see like like what is the American um uh what what is the American you know appetite for this product specifically.
36:33
>> Um let's uh >> take it over to >> our first guest. >> Yes. Let's do it.
36:40
>> Um >> welcome to the stream.
36:41
Uh how do I pronounce your name? >> Martin. Hi >> Marin.
36:47
I know it's difficult, but marching goes a long way. Thanks.
36:51
>> Thank you so much for joining us to meet you.
36:52
Thank you for staying up late.
36:52
Uh we know that you are over in Europe.
36:55
Uh if you could please give us an introduction on yourself and uh some of the research that you've done.
37:01
We'd love to kind of explore some of the ideas that you've been writing about. >> Sure. Sure. Thank you for having me.
37:05
Uh so I'm I'm professor of economics at Kosmis University in Warsaw, which is the highest ranked business school in Central Europe.
37:14
It is sort of the Stanford of Central Europe, if you will.
37:19
I also wrote a book that uh claimed the Polish economic miracle.
37:23
Uh the the fact that Poland has been the fastest growing economy in Europe and worldwide except for China over the last 35 years.
37:31
And I've also worked and advised over the past 20 years almost 20 governments around the world including most recently India and China.
37:41
So that also brings a bit of a global perspective to what has been happening in Poland, in the US, and around the world. >> Yeah.
37:49
What what are the key ingredients to to Poland's economic success broadly if you were to kind of rank the the few key choices that were made or investments? >> Yeah.
37:59
Every it feels like at least once a month a chart pops up of of Poland's like GDP growth relative to a bunch of other countries and it's just absolutely remarkable, >> right? Yeah. >> Yeah.
38:11
>> Yeah. So, it's in a remarkable sort of Hollywood Netflixlike story or you can call it a California-like unicorn because it is an economy that was bankrupt, backward and broken in 1899 at the at the end of communism and and and was poorer than Jamaica, Surinam, Gabon and a couple of other um countries and 35 years later it is now richer than Japan and it will be richer than Spain
38:40
and Israel next hair which is a remarkable story um of sort of unicorn and phoenix-like growth and I think there were a number of ingredients but one is definitely the the grind the work habits even now 35 years into this
38:56
economic miracle uh polls are the hardest working people uh among all the rich countries an average pole pole puts in 700 more hours of work per year than an average German like 12 hours per week. >> That's incredible. Speaking our language >> That's incredible.
39:12
Speaking our language speaking our language.
39:15
>> Is there take me one click upstream from that?
39:18
Like I can imagine uh a a population is more hardworking if you ban things that make it hard to you know do leisure.
39:28
So I I I are there anything is are there any pieces of the of the the what the government has done to make hard work more easier to pick or or more likely for the population to lean towards.
39:43
I'm thinking of like Singapore has banned a ton of like drug use for example and so I would imagine that Singaporeans work harder because the alternative of going and uh you know to a rock concert or to like the equivalent of Burning Man isn't on the table.
39:58
Is there anything like that that's actually been co like cognizant the government said we want our folks to work harder and then it happened or is it just like chance luck of the the Polish people?
40:09
>> No, it's it's not Singapore.
40:09
It's a democracy with, would you believe, 20 different governments over the past 35 years from left-wing Democrats to right-wing Republicans, from Bernie Sanders to Ron Paul and and all of them, I think they represented a society that is just hungry for success and a society that just wants to be richer or at least as rich and then richer than the than the fat cats in Western Europe.
40:34
And that's exactly what's been happening.
40:37
There's been a choice of polls who have moved from one-third of German income uh 35 years ago to 75 80% of German level of income now and they want to get to 100 and 120 and one way of doing it is obviously working hard.
40:52
So an average pole per week works 12 hours more per week than an average German and even six hours more.
41:01
>> And what's the what's the exact uh the exact number?
41:03
Is it is it 50 hours a week?
41:06
I don't know how how much time Germans spend working.
41:09
>> Uh it's a I don't know.
41:09
I don't want to pick on Germans.
41:12
I say hi to all my German friends.
41:14
But uh you know Poland continues to believe that that working hard and and there's a lot of opportunities.
41:21
You know Poland is part of an open global economy, part of the West, part of the European Union where you have 450 million consumers with no borders, no tariffs, no nothing.
41:33
If you have a good idea, you can win and conquer these markets, particularly from the incumbent, Western European players who very often just lost the hunger for success.
41:45
>> What's the lesson from the roll out of the internet?
41:48
I've heard uh a lot of countries sort of were able to pull forward economic growth by leaning in on high-speed internet, making it more accessible, extra infrastructure investments.
42:02
How much uh does the rise and roll out of the internet and like getting that right play into the Polish growth story over the last >> three big part and then >> so a Poland is a late comer and also a beneficiary of being backward >> uh you know when I came to the US for the first time in 1997 I did not know where checks were I I just never never knew they existed.
42:28
So Poland moved from a backward communist country straight into swiping credit cards and and sort of WeChat like payment systems which we have right now.
42:41
>> Uh so and also brand new 5G and and fiber optics.
42:44
So I think this is the what they call a rent of backwardness which is what exactly Poland has leveraged.
42:51
It has not had any s cost in the old infrastructure which again uh has happened in in Western Europe.
42:56
For instance in Germany one of the reasons they seem to be losing the the battle to be competitive in in electric vehicles is that all the BMWs and Mercedes they did not want to cannibalize the good business.
43:11
Um and so they were late to compete with the Chinese.
43:14
Poland never had this sos and it went straight into the into technology uh technological frontier.
43:21
How do you how are how are you counseling or thinking about sovereign AI?
43:26
I feel like uh giving every country if you want your country to succeed in the uh in the 2000s in the 2010s, you definitely want every citizen to have access to Google or every access or to Google search to uh you know cloud documents the cloud broadly.
43:46
But you don't need necessarily a data center in your country to access Google or to search the web or have access to the internet.
43:57
Um it wasn't it wasn't that critical to have the actual infrastructure in your borders.
44:02
Now it feels like there's a whole new discussion around you need sovereign AI, you need to be doing the inference within your borders for some reason.
44:10
And I just I'm I don't know that I fully believe that.
44:14
I feel like uh you you want your citizens to use AI, but uh whether they use it, whether they, you know, jump through a fiber optic cable across the border and access it somewhere else, that doesn't seem like >> I think the push for the push for sovereign AI is partly out of a fear of this sort of fast takeoff scenario, right? >> Yeah.
44:38
But yeah, I've never bought that.
44:40
But >> yeah, but and I it does not need to be mutually exclusive.
44:43
So in Poland actually every single players players in the market you know Google, Amazon, Microsoft these guys uh have the largest data centers and they ready to provide AI services to every is whoever is interested but at the same time the the government is also building uh redundancy.
45:03
It's it's building additional infrastructure including to host uh apps that do not even exist in the US.
45:11
Like for instance, I don't have to have any plastics on me, any ID when I drive for instance. It's all on my phone.
45:19
There's a Polish app uh called, you know, citizen where you virtually have most of the things you have needed. It's all on your phone.
45:26
So it's it's again it's an example of how some countries have just moved on and increasingly a lot of public services will be done uh from the phone.
45:34
It also helps that there's a lot of Polish talent that has actually helped create AI in the first place.
45:41
I mean a Polish guy is a chief scientist at Open AI.
45:47
>> Onethird of the founding engineers of Open AI were Polish.
45:52
>> So you know these guys called their moms and called them ex-girlfriends and tell them look you really want to look at Chad GBT and what we doing because that's the future. >> Yeah.
46:02
How how is uh how is Poland's university system helping to uh accelerate you know all these different priorities?
46:10
It feels like the US is at a unique moment where we've had a very uh robust um uh you know academic system but currently uh our our uh there's somewhat of a well not even somewhat certainly a kind of a conflict between uh the the government in our university system but then um also like a a broad sort of distrust of of a lot of our institutions. Yeah, that that is true.
46:37
And you know for all people uh most people around the world including myself a lot of I got my you know PhD in Poland.
46:45
I became a professor in Poland but I did my pre-dog and post dog at Harvard and I know the US well and it's obviously still the best place to get the top quality education.
46:55
Most Nobel Prize winner winners come from the US but but some other countries sort of hustle.
47:00
So Poland has not only outworked its competitors, it has also outed educated its competitors.
47:07
So for instance, half of young Poles age 25 to 34 have university education.
47:13
In Germany is only onethird.
47:16
So that gives you an idea.
47:18
They do not do not only work hard, they're actually pretty well educated.
47:22
It might not be Stanford and Harvard all the time, but this is solid education as reflected is in these open AI guys.
47:26
And finally, Poland also out competes because you you get this talent for half price for what you would pay for it in Germany.
47:37
You know, a top-notch computer scientist in Poland whom you can put at Silicon Valley any day will cost you 75 grand.
47:45
Uh I guess back where you're sitting, it would be 200 plus.
47:47
So, it's it's really this combination of human capital and and low labor cost and being located in in the heart of Europe and getting increasingly increasing interest from global um global investors who who look at 11 Labs and I saw just a guy who who was there just before me. I think he had a hat. >> That's right.
48:09
Tyler's rocking the hat right now. Right.
48:12
>> What about uh what about on the on the regulation front?
48:13
uh what what are the ways that uh Poland has you know what break down Poland's decision-m around uh regulation versus you know maybe other members of of the EU.
48:27
>> Uh so in the U you cannot really have much of your own voice on digital matters.
48:34
So it's actually all been consolidated in Brussels and the European Commission puts up ideas on behalf of everyone else.
48:42
That's the same for trade.
48:42
So for instance when the European Union cut a deal with Trump it was the EU that was negotiating on behalf of everyone not Poland Germany on Spain on digital is pretty much the same and there's ongoing debate whether Europe is just overregulating and I including AI and I agree we are overregulating or at least there's a perception that Europe is overregulating which is killing AI.
49:07
So I'm I'm hoping that the the perception will change and again newcomers new guys on the block like Poland >> uh now the 20th largest economy in the world you know richer richer than than Japan with more than1 trillion dollars of GDP Poland will be one of the countries that will be pushing for their regulating for opening up because this is exactly what has worked well for this country.
49:32
>> Did you have to ask Brussels if you could come on our podcast? >> No.
49:37
Uh, I'm here as an academic author of [laughter] this book if anyone is interested. No, but no. >> Okay, good. Okay, good. Good.
49:44
You're like, I had to apply.
49:45
It was a, you know, 10-hour application to go on the on the podcast. No, it's not quite that.
49:52
the the advantage of the EU is that for instance there's now this debate about creating a a new regulatory system where you could set up a company which could immediately work all across Europe under the EU laws.
50:07
So I think they called it sort of the 28 regime.
50:10
You you could sell your products and services everywhere in the EU without worrying about local regulations.
50:17
And I think this is the way to go.
50:19
And I think Poland and our region, all countries in the region will be pushing for these kind kind of solutions.
50:25
We don't want Europe to be sclerotic.
50:26
We want Europe to be successful and polls who are the most pro-american society in Europe and proudly also in the world will be one of the big supporters of these changes. >> Uh awesome.
50:39
>> Uh awesome. What's the mood in Poland around energy or or what's the uh is is there any place where Poland differs from Europe like other European countries broadly in terms of uh energy strategy or where energy is going when I when I think about the sovereign AI thing um a lot of countries it's just if
50:59
you have cheap energy you should set up an AI factory uh even no matter where you're wind up selling the tokens uh that's just a great use of energy these Um, but how is Poland thinking about the current energy mix and where that's going and various incentives and tradeoffs that might differ from other countries? >> So, Poland has originally and
51:20
>> So, Poland has originally and traditionally been a coalbased country, >> but has really moved quickly.
51:25
Now, about only half of the all energy use comes from coal and Poland has decided to go all in on on nuclear and on renewables.
51:37
M >> so the plan is to pretty much minimize or even eliminate the use of coal within the next decade plus and and Poland has already decided to build one nuclear plant then and actually with Westinghouse American technology but renewables is is the is the other part of the answer so there's probably not
51:55
enough of a surplus now to make Poland into a data center hub but it's pretty much but it's pretty much coming in other ways Poland is a hub like a lot of Belarusians Ukrainian Czech Slovak Virtually the whole region is increasingly moving into Warso and Poland because this is where things happen. If you want to scale up, if you
52:13
If you want to scale up, if you want to internationalize, if you want to find capital that's not vill that's not means for sure, uh you really want to come to Warso because that's where all the interest is and that's where the action is. >> Cool. >> Very very cool.
52:27
Well, I cannot wait to at some point I'm sure we will do this show from Warsaw and uh that will be a fun moment.
52:34
Thank you so much for joining and breaking it down.
52:36
Anytime >> anytime Poland is in the news, uh, feel free to jump back on the show.
52:40
It' be great to to talk through it. >> Thank you so much. >> Great. Thank you for having me. >> Great to meet you.
52:45
>> We'll talk to you soon. >> Cheers. >> Bye.
52:47
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52:57
Back on the timeline, Cyan Banister over at Long Journey has gotten a tattoo of the logo of their newest uh portfolio company, Substrate.
53:10
>> We have the founder of Substrate, James Proud, coming on the show uh in just a little bit. I'm excited for that.
53:16
And I never knew that uh my friend Chris Oitz >> uh also here in LA was the one who introduced uh James, I guess, along Journey.
53:26
and they were uh sounds like uh the first check.
53:28
I don't I don't uh know that >> for a fact, but uh at least very very early.
53:33
So good good to see and I'm excited to meet James.
53:36
>> Y >> um >> uh there's a post here from semi analysis uh classic an alltime classic uh we have been in serious problem.
53:47
[laughter] They're saying this is >> ASML um talking about substrates um approach and their new lithography system uh so we can get more info from uh James in a little bit.
53:59
But this company was announced yesterday. >> Yeah.
54:03
>> And announced uh about was it 100 on a billion straight out the gates? >> 100 on a billion.
54:07
Straight out of >> the gates. Not bad. Not bad. >> Not bad.
54:11
>> Um Logan Paul was uh a series A investor and whatnot.
54:15
So he's going from a 90 million to an 11. 5 billion valuation. Not too shabby at all.
54:20
I know uh another friend of mine, Ant Skates, was I believe also uh one of the uh a part of leading that series A if I remember just >> not too long ago at all.
54:34
>> It's it makes so much sense that Logan Paul would have invested in this company.
54:38
>> He's like super into collectibles and >> Oh, collectibles, but also just social media.
54:41
He's actually sold a ton of products on >> social media on he's done all sorts of different YouTube videos, the Vine era, like he's seen firsthand every single iteration and turn of what's happening on social media, on content, on on commerce.
54:59
And so, uh, makes a bunch of sense that he would be like fine-tuned to understand the opportunity here.
55:05
Although, there were a bunch of companies that were going after this.
55:07
Uh, very tricky to pick the right one. >> Pop shop. >> Pop shop. Are they still around? Did they do okay? >> I don't think so.
55:13
I think they Well, they still have a website.
55:15
>> I know I know a few other companies were trying to come after this exact idea.
55:17
Uh this live shopping uh I mean even shop I guess is is around.
55:25
>> Pop shop's around still. Okay.
55:27
>> Uh there's somebody live right now selling blind boxes. >> There you go.
55:30
Hopefully they're selling SAS.
55:31
Hopefully they're selling graphite.
55:33
dev code review for the age of AI.
55:35
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55:40
This is >> Sam Alman said yesterday an IPO is now the most likely path forward for OpenAI given the scale of capital the company will need going forward.
55:48
Uh no surprises no surprises there. >> Yes.
55:54
Uh it'll be very interesting to hear more comments from Sam Alman and Satcha Nadella on what happens over the medium to long term.
56:03
I'm fascinated by the idea of if if Microsoft winds up with like a $150 billion position, maybe that goes up in the public markets, you could be looking at like a $200 billion position.
56:16
Like what is the Treasury >> market sells as soon as a lockup ends.
56:21
[laughter] >> Just bails immediately. >> Yeah. No, no.
56:24
I mean, Microsoft Thanks for the IP, buddy.
56:27
>> Microsoft is an open AI treasure.
56:29
>> I'm going to be trading just based off Rune Tweets alone. >> Yes. Yeah.
56:31
you're going to be trading Microsoft for now.
56:32
You can do that today because they own they have 135 billion position.
56:39
So, it's always an option.
56:39
But yes, uh what will what will Microsoft do uh over the medium term?
56:44
Uh once the company gets out, I would imagine that they don't just hit slam the sell button on day one.
56:51
I imagine that they they they you know let that evolve over a long period of time and and probably uh don't crash the stock because that just seems not particularly advantageous as you know silly as it would be.
57:06
>> Um more important news there's an abandoned McDonald's that NASA turned into a moon probe picture recovery lab.
57:14
>> What what is a moon probe picture recovery lab?
57:16
Was this is this from years ago?
57:20
like, >> yeah, I I don't know if it's still operational, but moonviews.
57:24
com, >> the official website of the Lunar Orbiter Image Recovery Project, >> and it does indeed look to be an uh uh they're calling it McMoons. >> Is it Is it AI? No. >> No, it's not AI.
57:39
This is a real >> Wait, wait, wait.
57:41
This is This is right by uh Google.
57:44
This is this this building is right uh next to where Sergey Brin's blimp is built, which we saw yesterday.
57:55
>> Absolutely stunning blimp. I'm so happy. I love seeing blimps. I love airship.
58:01
>> We I want to know more.
58:01
I know Ashley Vance did a whole video interviewing the founder of that company that Sergey partnered with, like the CEO that came in and is actually running the company.
58:11
Um, and I don't want to sound too rude, but what is the goal of the company?
58:17
Because blimps have been invented.
58:17
So, it's like, are we just >> we're bringing them back? >> I mean, I love it.
58:22
I want it to be brought back, I guess.
58:24
But, uh, it's like it's a thing that exists already.
58:28
>> Well, there was So, there's another there's another company.
58:30
There's a new blimp company called Airship. Yeah. That's a SpaceX team. >> Okay.
58:36
X SpaceX team >> that is trying to leverage airship blimps for global freight. >> Okay.
58:43
>> And the idea is that like a lot of exciting things happen when you're not trying to work within waterways ports and you can just transport goods, >> you know, directly you can imagine directly from China. You just fly over.
58:55
>> I saw someone who is like a a venture capitalist I believe like lay out the whole like blimp uh bull thesis uh very eloquently and uh and and run a bunch of numbers. seem pretty interesting.
59:05
Uh, but it is funny that like your moonshot is a thing that like like we've done it.
59:13
It's I guess it's just like >> your blimp shot. >> Your blimp shot it.
59:15
Well, it's really just like okay, we like like I guess there is a challenge.
59:20
The challenge is like make blimps work in the way that trains work or in the ways that containers work commercially like actually scale as a never really. Yeah.
59:30
because a Goodyear blimp still flies around LA sometimes, >> but there are like truly like six blimps in the entire world or something like that.
59:37
And so the total market cap of the blimp economy is just nothing.
59:40
Like it's just a disaster.
59:42
And so that's the real challenge.
59:45
I guess the challenge is not is not make another blimp because we know we can make blimps.
59:49
Uh the question is like can we find something more valuable to do with them such that it scales as a mode of transport.
59:56
Uh, are you you're are you're anti- hot air balloon. Are you anti- blimp?
1:00:01
Would you go on a blimp ride?
1:00:06
>> I would inspect it first.
1:00:08
>> You would you would inspect it.
1:00:09
>> Oh, you feel equipped. Pick the tires on.
1:00:12
>> I would use large language models. >> Yes.
1:00:14
>> And I would say how much gram >> and then and then you would know, okay, this is a good blimp. Blimp. Yeah. >> I don't know.
1:00:21
I think uh I I I would love to I would go into blimp without checking. I think uh >> blimps. >> Yeah, blimps.
1:00:29
Especially with um you being, you know, potentially having like a parachute on your back, you know, as >> you're one of the parachute guys.
1:00:37
You're like, I I need a parachute with me if I'm going to go up high. My fall. >> I don't know.
1:00:42
Planes have life jackets in them.
1:00:44
>> Those are those aren't parachutes.
1:00:46
>> I know, but you It's not the worst idea to have have a a backup plan. >> It is funny.
1:00:51
Like what are the odds when you take off on a plane that you're going to crash into the ocean and need a life jacket? >> Pretty rare. >> Yeah.
1:00:58
What are the odds that you're going to need a parachute on a blimp?
1:01:03
>> Probably >> rare but not nonzero. >> Yeah, that is true.
1:01:06
It is funny how u there aren't any plane like imagine if United was just like >> Jack is coming in with the the important take here which is data centers tied to balloons.
1:01:19
>> Steampunk data centers. So let's go.
1:01:21
blimp data center >> that that might work.
1:01:24
>> Elon apparently said on the on uh recently that he's uh thinking of he wants Teslas to be like distributed cloud basically so that when a Tesla is just parked >> that was a crazy providing um >> well you know who should run a blimp ad Julius.
1:01:39
ai AI AI data analyst that works for you. Connect your data.
1:01:46
Ask questions in plain English. Chat with your data.
1:01:47
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1:01:49
Um >> uh so I I believe Google had a data center on a container ship that they put out uh in the bay for a while ago. So this has happened.
1:02:02
Uh it is interesting that there's no there's no airplane service that is like we we actually have parachutes on board.
1:02:09
Like what would that do to the airline economy if United one day was just like yeah we're putting we're putting parachutes on all the United planes.
1:02:20
Like they don't do that on JetBlue.
1:02:22
They don't do that on American.
1:02:24
They don't do that on Delta.
1:02:26
Does Delta give you a parachute? No.
1:02:28
United gives you a parachute.
1:02:29
>> I mean potentially a good upsell.
1:02:29
Would that make you more Would that make you more more likely to fly United or less likely? Be honest.
1:02:36
>> Why Why are you guys adding parachute? >> Exactly.
1:02:38
It's begging a lot of questions. >> I know.
1:02:39
I I look at it more as a potential upsell.
1:02:41
It's like instead of having to fly into JFK.
1:02:45
>> You think it should be something I have to pay for? >> Yeah.
1:02:47
It's like a thousand parachute out anywhere over the state. >> Let you go. Let you go.
1:02:53
I I was just thinking like like you know for for the price of the ticket for 200 bucks you get the life jacket but for 300 bucks you can upgrade to the parachute.
1:03:00
I think that might be a way to to just squeeze a couple extra dollars.
1:03:05
I want the economy premium. >> I want to Yeah.
1:03:09
I I want an option for executives that don't have time to go through the airport dropping their meeting. >> Yeah, I like that.
1:03:18
If United came out and said, "We now have parachutes on board and you have a choice.
1:03:28
You're flying to New York from LA and you have a choice between Delta, which does not have parachutes, and United that does have parachutes."
1:03:37
Tyler, which one are you picking?
1:03:38
>> I don't think I want my airline to have parachutes. >> Why?
1:03:42
>> That makes me way more scared.
1:03:42
Why >> upgrade in safety?
1:03:46
>> You don't have my car to have seat belts. Yeah. Yeah.
1:03:49
It's like, oh, you put seat belts in there, you're expecting the car to crash.
1:03:53
No, it's just if it happens, we have the seat belt here.
1:03:57
If if the plane dissolves in the air, you have a parachute.
1:04:00
On this airline, >> dissolves. >> Yeah.
1:04:04
If the plane rips open, like in Fight Club, which you haven't seen.
1:04:06
Uh >> there's a bunch of If there's a bunch of snakes on the plane and you reach >> I think it makes more sense on a blimp because we've seen uh blimps just blow up in the sky. >> Yeah, true.
1:04:17
Planes don't really do that. Planes are pretty safe.
1:04:21
>> Anyway, [laughter] I hope no one in the chat is watching on a plane.
1:04:22
Uh because that would always be be rough.
1:04:28
>> Caleb Wattney >> uh [clears throat] over at IFP says, "Hard to understate what a blow this would be for American leadership and AI if this happens."
1:04:37
He's talking about how Trump has suggested he was open to providing China with access to Nvidia's Blackwell uh chips as part of a trade deal which would represent a major concession and rile up national security hawks in Washington.
1:04:49
We'll be speaking about Blackwells, Trump said, touting the chips as super duper and years ahead of what was currently available from other countries.
1:04:57
He said Nvidia CEO Jensen had recently brought a version of the chip to the Oval Office for him to see.
1:05:03
AI bellweather Nvidia shares extended gains to 8 1.
1:05:05
5% in Asian trading on the alternative platform Blue Ocean signaling potential further gains when US markets open.
1:05:11
They are seemingly in route to a $5 trillion valuation.
1:05:19
>> I think they hit it, didn't they?
1:05:19
We got to pull that up on public.
1:05:21
com investing for those that take it seriously.
1:05:24
They got multi-asset investing in yield. >> They did hit that5. 02 02 trillion.
1:05:34
Okay, that was a better hit. That was a better hit.
1:05:37
>> A better hit, but it's going to do the weird ring thing, I think. Yeah.
1:05:38
See, it's going to keep ringing because apparently we broke our gong and this is what happens when you break the gong [music] is that it just keeps ringing.
1:05:46
But that's actually kind of a feature in my mind. I don't know. >> Feature. >> What do you think?
1:05:51
Uh the question here is maybe Trump is doing a little uh 5D chess and he realiz >> this is 6D chess actually.
1:06:00
>> Could be six, could be seven, could be five.
1:06:02
>> It's a little simplistic to me.
1:06:04
>> You don't it's it's really hard to say at this stage, but it's possible that he realizes that AI is about infinite slot machines. Yes.
1:06:11
>> And he realizes actually adult content.
1:06:15
It's actually in America's interest to get as many black wells >> to China as possible >> so that they all get oneshotted. >> Yes. >> Yeah.
1:06:21
This is the modern information war.
1:06:25
This is the cybernetic future war that's happening between America and China.
1:06:30
It went from AI is a good thing.
1:06:33
So we need to keep the chips in America.
1:06:35
We can't let them have them to say you can only keep the chips out of America.
1:06:40
You can only have the black wells if you let every give a free plan of GPT40 to every citizen [laughter] >> and uh Cin Ping just you're absolutely right.
1:06:52
I would love [laughter] I would love to give every every citizen Anie uh with with sexy mode.
1:06:58
Um no I don't I don't know.
1:07:03
I my my take on this has always been like we do we actually have slack capacity for chips because we've been having the GPU poor debate for a while.
1:07:15
Everyone's said that that, you know, oh, we can't make enough chips.
1:07:20
We can't build enough data centers.
1:07:22
But like it it is it's a lot easier to advocate for, hey, don't sell to China if there truly is unlimited demand in America.
1:07:36
It's a completely different conversation if it's like, well, yeah, actually like like AWS and Google and uh OpenAI, like they're actually good on Nvidia chips.
1:07:45
they don't want to buy anymore.
1:07:45
And Nvidia is like, "Wait, but we made so many of these we want to sell them."
1:07:49
Like, "Can we sell them to China?"
1:07:49
You'd be like, "Well, yeah, because like that's going to hurt your business a ton if you have to write those down because you made them versus it's just a choice of who you're selling to and it's a zero sum."
1:08:01
So, >> I mean, Jensen does not want to lose the Chinese market.
1:08:04
He's been very clear about how frustrated he is about the the whole situation, but he's been playing nice. >> Yeah.
1:08:12
uh the the Nvidia just just you know continuing to ramp up despite uh everyone waking up to the to how big of a of a threat you know TPUs are uh to Nvidia.
1:08:24
Uh it's interesting timing. >> Yeah.
1:08:28
Um yeah there there was some more news about TPUs.
1:08:31
I think the demand for TPU is like through the roof.
1:08:32
Uh they saw some post about that.
1:08:35
Um, in other news, Oliver Cameron, friend of the show, introduced Odyssey 2, instant interactive AI video.
1:08:43
Uh, this is general purpose model that instantly imagines 20fps video you can interact with in open-minded ways.
1:08:50
It feels like true sci-fi.
1:08:52
Type a few words and AI instantly imagines a video that feels alive.
1:08:57
So, the the the the browser war is in full swing.
1:09:00
Now the uh the real time video generation wars are in full swing.
1:09:07
You got world labs, you got Odyssey, uh you got Genie 3, I believe from Google.
1:09:14
Uh there are a few companies working on this.
1:09:15
Uh I'm personally excited for, you know, where this goes once you get some extra harnessing in there, some extra mechanics.
1:09:24
Uh, I don't know if this is I I we need to have Oliver back on the show and talk to him about is he thinking about going more API driven or does he want to kind of own more of I mean, yeah, like how much of it needs to be the foundation model company versus the application layer?
1:09:40
How much does he need to does he want to own like the end result or whatever people do with the product?
1:09:48
Um there's uh there's a pretty wide swath of opportunity once you have a model that works in a particular way.
1:09:56
You can go set up a short form video app if you want and try and win and build a new social network.
1:10:01
Um but it's all uh there's a whole bunch of trade-offs there and a whole bunch of challenges.
1:10:07
So uh clearly a you know a next next step in advancing the model, but uh a lot of questions about how do you actually monetize this? Is it a proumer tool?
1:10:17
Will people be using this just as better video generation because it's faster turnaround so you can iterate more quickly?
1:10:23
There's a whole bunch of benefits there.
1:10:24
Uh all the demos here are vertical interestingly but the launch videos horizontal. What does that mean? Dig into that.
1:10:33
>> Uh if you want to generate some video uh head over to fall generative media platform for developers.
1:10:37
The world's best generative image video and audio models all in one place.
1:10:40
Develop and fine-tune models with serverless GPUs and ondemand clusters.
1:10:44
Uh Toby Lkey was taking shots at AI notetakers.
1:10:48
He hit the timeline and said having some AI follow you into your Zoom meetings or Google Meet for taking notes is the digital equivalent of showing up to a meeting with your fly down. Um what do you think?
1:11:05
You're you're anti- AI you're anti- clanker in the group chat.
1:11:11
>> I never let I never let him in. >> You never let him in.
1:11:13
You never let him sit there in the Zoom room.
1:11:17
>> The clanker the clanker is in the waiting room.
1:11:19
>> No, >> it's ready to be let in.
1:11:19
[laughter] >> Oh, I forgot. Sorry.
1:11:23
>> This uh this this reply post says Firefly is waiting in the lobby and that's where Firefly will stay.
1:11:30
[laughter] >> Toby's on fire.
1:11:32
He said Firefly better fly right into the in the P O D A M fire. >> Yeah. So, uh I don't know.
1:11:40
He was he didn't he didn't elaborate on why he doesn't like this.
1:11:45
Uh friend of the show TJ Parker said uh maybe it has something to do with the fact that if you're recording every meeting, every meeting is now discoverable.
1:11:53
And so if you have some random lawsuit all of a sudden, you know those like leaked tech emails. Imagine that.
1:12:01
But for everything you do at work all the time forever, >> that's what having an AI notetaker is in.
1:12:10
That's why I just wear my friend. [laughter] >> Yeah. Yeah.
1:12:13
I mean truly it is it is fascinating that like people that that we actually got to the outcome where Firefly identifies itself and says like hey I'm an AI noteaker.
1:12:24
I'm here and I'm going to join as opposed to the alternative which was just like run clearly on your computer and no one knows.
1:12:32
>> Gold Rock says using transcription clankers are a nogo.
1:12:33
Oftentimes they're used without all parties consent. That's another one.
1:12:37
And it's like if somebody wants to come in to the call and say, "Hey, for the next 10 minutes, >> do you mind if I record this so that I don't have to take notes myself?"
1:12:48
>> I'm open to like opting in, but just like the default record every single call, like there's no >> Yeah, >> there's no there's just not uh not something I'm interested in doing.
1:13:00
>> Yeah, obviously depends a lot on the use case.
1:13:04
you know, are you synthesizing takeaways? Is this actually useful?
1:13:08
It's probably not a replacement for not actually paying attention during the call.
1:13:15
Like, uh, you're not just going to zone out for an hour and then review some meeting notes and be like, "Oh, I I that was now a productive meeting."
1:13:23
Like, >> I would love to know what percentage of transcripts like ever get read like the notes. >> Yeah.
1:13:30
Is it like I I would expect it to be a very small percentage that actually get read.
1:13:36
So it's like one of those things people are like kind of peace of mind.
1:13:42
>> I mean I did I did have one interaction with a group of friends who had a Zoom call to talk about they're they're all like uh everyone's like a content creator and so they'd have these calls. I couldn't make one.
1:13:53
Normally everyone hops on the phone on the calls talks about trends strategies whatever there's do whatever they're doing.
1:13:58
do whatever they're doing. I couldn't make one of those calls and so they did have one of the transcripts happen and I was able to read through that and that was fun because like I like these friends and so I was kind of able to you know not fully listen to the full call
1:14:12
but get some of the topics like oh what's top of mind for my friends that was kind of cool um but that was definitely something like it was a meeting that I was looking forward to so I was happy to to you know enjoy it as a as a transcript as well because I would enjoy the meeting if I had actually attended. But regardless, if you're transcribing a
1:14:29
But regardless, if you're transcribing a bunch of stuff, if you have a bunch of text, you need to search every bite, you need to use turbo puffer, serverless, vector, and full text search.
1:14:38
Built from first principles on object storage, fast, 10x cheaper, and extremely scalable. >> Puffing. >> We puffing. >> We puffing.
1:14:45
The >> golden age of private credit is over.
1:14:49
Private credit winter is coming, says high yield Harry.
1:14:51
Lenders are quietly rewriting their collateral rules, which suggests a crisis waiting to happen.
1:14:58
People have been nervous about private credit booming.
1:15:00
Aries has minted seven new billionaires, something like that.
1:15:06
Uh there's been a ton of boom in private credit, ton of boom in um in in [snorts] debt. Debt is coming.
1:15:12
Uh the question is when will there be a pullback?
1:15:15
How much more room does it have to run?
1:15:17
There's a reply here from guy named uh Jason who says, "That's nice, but I'd prefer not to lose any money, so please make sure the government is prepared to cover all potential losses.
1:15:27
If not for everyone, then for me and my cohort specifically. Warm regards." >> Me and my cohort. What does that mean?
1:15:36
>> Oh, me and everybody's got a cohort.
1:15:39
[laughter] >> What cohort do you identify with? That's hilarious.
1:15:42
Oh, this this post from >> what did he say? >> Hilarious.
1:15:48
I don't even know what he was replying to.
1:15:49
>> I don't know what he was replying to because it deleted.
1:15:51
>> Spaceman live on TVPN eyes rolling back in his head.
1:15:56
>> Yeah, that was a very weird screen grab.
1:15:58
I don't know how this screen grab happened, but uh it was absolutely wild.
1:16:03
Uh what did uh what did Bos say?
1:16:03
So Bos posted a blog post about you are how you act.
1:16:10
He says, "The modern American self is best defined by two enlightenment thinkers who never met but have been arguing in our heads ever since."
1:16:17
Jean Jacqu Rouso believed in the primacy of the inner self, a core of goodness, constantly betrayed by circumstance.
1:16:25
In his view, the world corrupts us.
1:16:27
We begin pure and only fail because society obligation or expectation pulls us away from who we truly are.
1:16:36
Benjamin Franklin saw it differently.
1:16:38
For him, there was no such thing as a good person or a bad person.
1:16:42
Only people who do good things and people who do bad things.
1:16:45
Virtue was a habit, not an essence.
1:16:46
Modern America carries both of these ideas, switching between them whenever convenient.
1:16:51
We invoke Rouso when we need forgiveness. I meant well.
1:16:55
We invoke Franklin when we need accountability.
1:16:57
Show me what you've done.
1:16:59
It's almost entirely it's it's an almost entirely incompatible pair of philosophies that coexist perfectly in practice because they're both so flattering.
1:17:09
One to our intentions, the other to our ambition, but only one of them scales.
1:17:14
Fake it until you make it is often dismissed as shallow, but it's closer to Franklin's truth.
1:17:18
Faking it long is long faking it long enough is making it.
1:17:23
The repetition of behavior, not the sincerity of belief, is what shapes character.
1:17:28
you become the kind of person who does the things you repeatedly do. I agree with that.
1:17:32
Uh Rouso invites endless introspection.
1:17:36
Franklin invites progress.
1:17:36
The first is how you feel is about how you feel.
1:17:39
The second is about what you build.
1:17:41
I find the Franklin model far more useful.
1:17:43
Not because it's truer in some cosmic sense, but because it gives you agency.
1:17:48
You can't always change how you feel, but you can always decide what to do next.
1:17:57
It doesn't take great men to do things, but it is doing things that make men great.
1:18:03
Arnold Glascow and uh you know some people had some some jokes.
1:18:09
They're poking fun at Bos saying tech bros are redistri rederiving Sart from first principles.
1:18:14
I haven't read SAR so I don't know.
1:18:16
Um but um >> I like I like a reflective post like that.
1:18:21
I think that's a good post.
1:18:21
I think that's I think that's an interesting little like tour of a couple philosophers you might have heard of, but kind of distilling and then recontextualizing these two uh these two thinkers.
1:18:32
This is a this is a sweet spot.
1:18:36
I've been enjoying writing these like 500word essays just kind of like one little thought packaged up in a couple paragraphs.
1:18:43
I'm glad Bos is doing it too. >> Cheers.
1:18:47
>> In other news, bending spoons. >> Yes.
1:18:50
uh European software conglomerate has acquired America Online AOL >> and raised 2.
1:18:58
8 billion of debt >> to get it done. Uh they say big nose.
1:19:04
We're acquiring AOL, the iconic web portal and email provider from Yahoo subject to customary conditions and regulatory approvals.
1:19:09
And uh to I would it's it's painful uh that that America online will be owned by a European software conglomerate.
1:19:21
Uh but let's hit the gong for raising 2.
1:19:23
8 billion in debt to buy a legacy digital asset.
1:19:29
I'm so we got to have somebody on from Bending Spoons because I uh I don't I don't feel like I have a good understanding of this company at all. They acquired Evernote.
1:19:39
>> They acquired Wii transfer.
1:19:39
It's such a funny name for a company. >> They acquired Vimeo.
1:19:45
>> Uh so they uh are kind of all over the place, but um >> Matrix inspired.
1:19:50
They in the Matrix probably.
1:19:54
>> Um yeah, interestingly enough, they uh I wonder I wonder what just like AOL's email business is worth.
1:20:00
Like do people >> do people pay for like pay for that at all or is it entirely is the entire business ad space?
1:20:12
>> AOL I think there's still people paying.
1:20:14
I wouldn't be surprised if there's still people cracking open a CD and being like I got to get my internet this month.
1:20:21
>> Do you do either of you remember what I'm talking about?
1:20:23
Are you familiar with this? >> Uh no. No.
1:20:24
There there was a time when you got the internet from a physical disc basically, which is sounds ridiculous, but basically it was like what are you talking about?
1:20:33
Like it's the whole internet is on. >> No, no, no, no, no.
1:20:35
So basically I I I think the way it works is basically you'd open up a magazine and there would be a CD and it would be like AOL and and the disc would would would claim some sort of like number of minutes.
1:20:47
Ben, do you remember this? No. No one remembers this. I'm so old.
1:20:51
Um, and B it would be like 7,000 minutes of internet access.
1:20:57
And basically what you do is you would put the is you would put the disc in and then you would pull and then you would install a piece of software that would allow you to access the internet [laughter] the crazy emoji guy. No.
1:21:10
And and then so on the disc was the software that would that would like give you a web browser basically because how do you get a web browser if you don't have the internet?
1:21:20
You need to install that first.
1:21:20
So you would install the AOL, >> but did you buy software package disc every month? >> No. No.
1:21:25
So they would give out free trials basically and then you would be able to connect to the internet and and you would be limited based on the number of minutes that you spent online.
1:21:34
Each CD would give you a couple thousand minutes for free.
1:21:38
Something along those lines. Um anyone?
1:21:39
Uh anyway, uh we have our first in-person guest of the show. We have Brian Johnson. Welcome to the stream.
1:21:48
I'm going to go over there.
1:21:51
>> Uh, while he hops on, let me tell you about AI.
1:21:53
Google AI Studio, the fastest way from prompt [music] to production with Gemini, chat with models, vibe code, and monitor usage. Thank you. >> Uh, classic LA story.
1:22:00
Good >> to see you again.
1:22:03
>> People in LA arrive on time 15 minutes after you normally arrive. >> Oh, yeah.
1:22:11
>> At least I do normally.
1:22:12
>> Yeah, that's the nature.
1:22:13
>> Uh, hopefully you didn't have too much traffic.
1:22:15
It's great to have you here. Uh, big week for you.
1:22:17
It's been a great week for us.
1:22:19
>> Yeah, congratulations.
1:22:19
Uh 60 million, but break down exactly what happened.
1:22:23
What what was the impetus for the deal?
1:22:26
Uh take us through the recent history of Blueprint.
1:22:28
>> I mean, I started this this is the idea that we are the first generation who won't die.
1:22:33
>> It's kind of a crazy idea.
1:22:33
We started this a couple years ago and I think a lot of people thought this was kind of an insane >> pro thought process and so we've been hammered away and I think it's gone from weird to interesting to yesterday was kind of like now it's accepted and maybe even cool. >> Yeah. Yeah.
1:22:48
>> And so I think we've it's a it's a thing now.
1:22:50
It's a part of the zeitgeist and I think it formalizes that we're really going to take a a shot at this. >> Yeah.
1:22:54
So I mean there's like the philosophical underpinning where you're I imagine you know in in the vein of Kerszswall like looking at long-term trends artificial intelligence uh compounding just the value of compounding little gains all over the the health system potentially could at least in your belief get us to infinite life and not die don't die.
1:23:18
So you get to that, but then you, you know, at some point need to instantiate that in a company, in a business, in a suite of products.
1:23:23
And so that's what blueprint is today.
1:23:26
Is that the idea of of the the fund raise, is that what people are investing in? >> Yeah.
1:23:32
The idea is um >> when somebody says, "Yes, I want to be healthy." It's pretty hard.
1:23:36
You have to go out and you have to navigate a thousand things, you know, like is this good for me or is it bad for me?
1:23:42
You have people who have conflicting opinions.
1:23:44
>> And so our target customer is somebody who says, "I want to be healthy.
1:23:47
and we just say, "We've got you." >> Yeah.
1:23:50
>> We will give you like the protein amounts.
1:23:52
We'll give you tested and certified foods.
1:23:53
We'll give you the exact dose.
1:23:54
We'll help you with your prescriptions.
1:23:56
We'll give you protocols.
1:23:58
Like >> your autonomous self, like it's not go navigate the world by yourself. It's we've got you. Yeah.
1:24:03
>> And we'll do an evidence-based biomarker approach.
1:24:05
One of the uh I feel like anybody that really gets into health goes through a period where they realize I I at least at one point I was like 19 at the time realized that it felt like I was spending like 50% of all my cognitive power on just like trying to be as healthy as possible.
1:24:21
And at a certain point I realized like this is such an inefficient use of time.
1:24:27
Unfortunately, you build up some habits and kind of like understanding of what's good and what's bad and what you want to uh leverage more and and kind of avoid and all that stuff, but uh I think like make you know removing that uh step from the process of being able to just kind of like default into a system.
1:24:43
Um, walk can you can you get into a little bit more of like I I I remember reading a post at this point from you maybe it was like a couple months ago kind of like talking through the decision-m around um you know where you wanted to take blueprint uh why kind of raise capital all that kind of thing. >> Yeah.
1:25:01
I mean it was this um I mean I guess I my sole objective is try to be sober in this moment and I really enjoy the perspective of thinking a few hundred years into the future.
1:25:11
You look back at this moment and we are giving birth to some kind of super intelligence.
1:25:17
We don't know what it is.
1:25:19
We don't know what kind of scale, but it's big. It's important.
1:25:20
I have neither an opinion that it's positive or negative. It's just significant.
1:25:25
>> And I was really trying to think through does it even matter if I build anything in the world right now or should I work on building the philosophy and the moral framework on like what does it mean to be intelligent on planet Earth in this part of the galaxy?
1:25:37
part of the galaxy? M >> and I was kind of in the middle of like as an entrepreneur do you build or like which way do you build and so I was just reflecting that am I misallocating my time and I thought you know really blueprint is the practical implementation of this philosophy like
1:25:53
when you say yes to don't die you're saying I value existence I respect existence and so it's it's less about living forever it's more about a philosophy of yes this moment is big and so what a lot of people don't realize is this endeavor is entirely about AI alignment. >> Yeah. >> Yeah.
1:26:09
>> I mean that's the sole thing happening on the planet right now.
1:26:12
And so when you take care of yourself, you take care of your body, when you take care of the body, you take care of intelligence, like it's just it's this holistic system of we acknowledge existence. So it's that was it.
1:26:20
It was like I was trying to figure out as a human, what do I do on planet Earth right now?
1:26:24
And how do I spend my time? I'm an entrepreneur.
1:26:26
My intuitions are to become an entrepreneur, but I wondered is that really the the right way to do it? >> Yeah. >> Yeah.
1:26:32
What is what does Blueprint look like in a decade?
1:26:34
It feels like you're it's such a unique consumer package goods business because you can't even call it that.
1:26:42
It's like I mean I I understand that there's like the philosophy and I I love that as the brand, but even just in terms of like the business of like what people pay for, there's a lot and that's just that just such a contrarian approach to this this category because so many people are like, I have an idea.
1:26:58
I'm going to make coffee better.
1:26:59
I'm going to make a greens powder better or I have an opinion about the the burger or the meat or the food or one particular thing and then they grow and grow and grow and then 5 years in they're like let's do a line extension. Let's do >> Yeah.
1:27:12
CPG trend of the last 10 years was go walk into the gas station, find a product that's popular and make a a version of it that's like 50% healthier and then you probably have like a nine figure revenue business >> or make nothing like Thrive Market, Arowan.
1:27:27
There's a bunch of companies that have been like we'll just be the the seller of everything.
1:27:31
How did you land on like I want to kind of make everything that feels like an immense challenge.
1:27:37
I want to walk through all that.
1:27:38
I mean that's what you know Kaparthi was talking about the autonomous systems with door cache. Yeah.
1:27:42
Like that then and he and I think very similar in this way is that if you model out what AI systems will do they'll probably take on more autonomous responsibility in our lives.
1:27:52
>> We see beginnings where you plug an address in to a car and it helps you navigate to the place.
1:27:55
You don't think about it much.
1:27:57
>> Y >> we're going to build our autonomous self.
1:27:59
Our health will be run on our behalf.
1:28:00
So right now we have to chase down all our food.
1:28:02
We have to chase down protocols.
1:28:04
We have to chase down evidence.
1:28:05
But it's not going to be that in the future.
1:28:07
it will be that it will just be run for us and as we get measurement that's more high fidelity.
1:28:12
So blueprint is basically we're saying we are going to build your autonomous system of health and we're going to ride the breakthroughs of science so that as we make better progress in lowering the speed of aging and reversing aging damage you can just say I'm in and I'm going to ride with you.
1:28:26
So we're going to try to be on the very very forefront >> to help people have you know the best possible health.
1:28:33
So we're just building out autonomous health systems.
1:28:34
Yeah, that feels like super valuable just from the consumer experience of like I I'm I'm delegating all of that hassle.
1:28:41
I know basically if I buy one from one brand, it it's all aligned with one philosophy, which is great.
1:28:48
Um, what does that mean on the logistics side?
1:28:53
What does that mean on the capex side?
1:28:55
What does that mean on the operational cost side?
1:28:56
Do you have like 25 different product managers for each niche?
1:28:59
Like what's the shape of the company?
1:29:01
This feels like a big challenge. >> A very big challenge.
1:29:03
or standing up like 10 different businesses at the same time. >> Exactly. Exactly.
1:29:07
Like there's plenty of people that could have done what you did where they like become famous or they become content creators in one way or another and then they're like now I have one product and you're like now I have how many products do you actually have? >> Over 20. >> Over 20. Yeah.
1:29:21
Uh and it's clear that like you probably a lot of that comes from the fact that you've been a successful entrepreneur before.
1:29:26
You're like yeah I can probably do more than just one.
1:29:29
But uh but what what what actually does the what does the does the business look like?
1:29:33
Does the system look like?
1:29:34
Are there cross-selling benefits in retail on day one or is this just an e-commerce play on day one?
1:29:39
Like, how do you think about the the costs and benefits of going multi-product so soon? >> Yeah.
1:29:45
I mean, the thing is that when people want to be healthy, you can't just address one thing.
1:29:48
They're still left with 99 things to deal with.
1:29:52
>> I totally get the consumer value makes a ton of sense.
1:29:54
>> So, internally, we're basically building out the infrastructure to deliver every single channel.
1:29:58
So digital food uh prescriptions testing so we can say like >> it's so much stuff.
1:30:05
>> It is so much stuff you know like this is what so I've done this myself the last you know like 5 years we've mastered the system for me >> and you know I've been fighting to achieve the best biomarkers in the world like kind of in some sense a like a ridiculous idea but also like it's a new
1:30:19
sport like you can imagine it becoming a thing um so yeah I mean basically we've mastered it we've built it now it's productizing so yeah do >> so where the images of the What is how do you think about so so every every consumer out there has at probably at
1:30:34
some point or another gone through the frustration of of finding a product they love and then watching the company behind it or sometimes an acquire just like steadily just like try to maintain or increase their margins to the point where it's no longer that it might have
1:30:48
similar looking packaging but it's no longer the same product like like I imagine like you want blueprint to be the thing that you are relying on for the majority of your calories, the majority of the supplements you take, the majority of the drugs that you are going to, uh, leverage. And so, uh, I
1:31:04
And so, uh, I can imagine like, you know, holding the company to that standard so that you're not having to go anywhere else or realize like, oh, this product would actually be better for me.
1:31:15
But like, do you have any kind of like ethos around that?
1:31:18
because that just feels like every, you know, I try to be cognizant of like when a company goes from founder to uh they've exited and the new acquirer is just going to say like, hey, you know, we could actually source this salt from over here >> and we're going to save like 80%.
1:31:34
And nobody's really going to notice cuz it's going to taste similar, but then the tests start showing up and it's actually like got lead in it now or whatever. >> Yeah, exactly right.
1:31:44
I mean, I'm Blueprint's number one customer.
1:31:45
I appreciate it so much, you know, because like we when we first started doing this project, I was testing everything I put into my body.
1:31:52
Air, water, food, like everything.
1:31:55
And I learned first of all, food is guilty until proven innocent. Like it is so toxic.
1:31:59
It's no matter where you get it. >> Yeah.
1:32:03
People were freaking out last week when there was that uh protein powder report came out that a bunch of them had lead in it.
1:32:08
And I was like I my immediate reaction was like obviously a lot of this stuff has lead in it.
1:32:13
I mean like look at the average chocolate bar has like a ton of lead in it >> and that's it's not even so you can to isolate that one toxin but there's so many other toxins.
1:32:22
So people they they grab onto one concept that they understand it's like oh that's bad.
1:32:28
There's trace levels of heavy metals in all of our foods. Yeah.
1:32:31
>> So like the fact that it's there is not an alarming it's just it's out of context but it's at a level people understand.
1:32:34
But you know the goal is I'm going to >> blueprint is my way to try to achieve you know this don't die and so people will be just riding along.
1:32:42
We build on population level data.
1:32:44
So this is not about Brian Johnson's body.
1:32:46
This is about everybody's body.
1:32:47
So all ages, both genders.
1:32:49
But no, I think we're being meticulous about what we do.
1:32:53
>> And so it will be the quality will be the best in the world. And so I care about it.
1:32:57
I'm consuming all about myself. >> Yeah.
1:32:59
what what uh what's the plans on the kind of tele medicine front for uh for uh kind of interventions or therapies that require uh doctor's kind of involvement.
1:33:10
Is there anything on that front?
1:33:12
>> We will build an infrastructure to basically when you want a prescription if you want to go on a GLP1 we can help you get started whether you want a large dose or micro dose.
1:33:22
You're just like, "Yeah, and also I'll do the lab testing and I'll also like build the, you know, the I'll I'll I'll be mining the metal that gets turned into the needle that injects you with the G."
1:33:31
It's like you want to hold up the entire global economy. I love it. It's good ambition.
1:33:35
I I I I strongly support this.
1:33:38
Uh yeah, I I was interested in like like where are the edges of like what you like?
1:33:42
Yeah, actually I'm not going to go into that market.
1:33:46
But it feels like you'll just continue to work on it until you get to some status where you're like, "Yeah, actually it's Would you would you go into hospitality?
1:33:54
Would you create like physical kind of like if you want if you want to get European these European kind of uh health retreats that are very like >> evidence-driven, they're testing focus.
1:34:08
I could imagine a blueprint retreat center that that people can visit once a year to >> Yeah, we have about a dozen groups around the world that want to stand this up and some of the biggest hotel chains around the world.
1:34:17
They because the thing is they just want credibility.
1:34:19
They want to say like come here.
1:34:21
We have this thing structured.
1:34:22
When I meet with some of the most powerful people in the world, they're just as clueless as everyone else.
1:34:27
It is not a like people imagine rich and powerful people just have it solved. Yeah. >> That is not the case.
1:34:33
>> And so yeah, we are going to stand this up.
1:34:35
We probably will not do physical clinics.
1:34:36
It's just too much on the real estate and so we'll probably license it out. >> Sure.
1:34:41
>> We probably do the digital model if we have a >> model almost.
1:34:44
>> We have trust like we want to have like we could do a model across food and clinics where we have this evidence-based approach.
1:34:50
So yeah, I mean we're we're kind of in it to just blanket the entire industry with a framework on how to do things in a credible way that's biomarkerled, evidence-based. >> Yeah.
1:35:01
Uh what was the thesis behind the round?
1:35:02
$60 million, tons of faces, not the traditional CPG VCs, private equity folks.
1:35:10
Like, what was the thesis? >> Yeah.
1:35:12
I mean, so I I've been funding the company myself up until this point. Yeah.
1:35:16
And, >> you know, I guess I just wanted my friends to come along with me.
1:35:19
The So, these are people I talk to in private. They enjoy it. They're into it.
1:35:22
And I think a lot of people, they have not known how to think about me, like, am I legit? Am I not? Is this a thing? Is this weird?
1:35:30
And then they see that list of investors are like, "Oh shit." >> Yeah.
1:35:34
>> And so like yesterday, I think was the first day it was like, "Oh, it's safe to say this is cool."
1:35:40
That flipped like a long time ago. Really? >> Yeah.
1:35:43
I I I feel like the I feel like that the first like business I What was the first piece that you did that was like I spent $2 million on my health and that went super viral. >> Yeah. Two or three years ago.
1:35:54
>> That was like two or three years ago.
1:35:54
I feel like that was the moment where people looked at it.
1:35:56
My personal view pretty quickly people dug into your backtory and were like, "Oh yeah, you sold a leg."
1:36:02
>> My personal view is is America has has over the last few years had so little trust in health institutions.
1:36:08
Like if you just went and followed the American Heart Association's guidance, I'd probably die at like [laughter] 60, right?
1:36:17
And so, so to me, I was always like, you know, knowing how much I I you can read about health and you can listen to podcasts and you can listen to what some influencer said in a short form video, but to deeply understand your health, you have to do self-experimentation. Everybody is different.
1:36:34
And so I always looked at it, you know, you you always tried to be controversial enough to like generate attention, attract some people that were going to become super fans and lose some people.
1:36:46
And you were kind of okay with that.
1:36:47
But my my sense was always like, thank you that somebody is going to invest more money than basically anyone else and just self-experimentation and then open source all of that and now people can buy your olive oil if they want or they can decide no I'm actually going to go on my own journey and try to find some >> uh some product that can fit this requirement.
1:37:06
Um, but it felt like such a public benefit that I always wish there was like >> a thousand Brian Johnson's that were just all running the same experimentation open sourcing process versus the biggest thing we we talked about this the other day is >> health influencers quickly get into >> put themselves in a niche and they're like I'm the I'm the the fasting guy. I'm the HRV guy.
1:37:29
And then every single thing becomes about that. >> Yeah.
1:37:33
And it's cool because you can like tap into a world and like kind of accelerate and understand a lot about a category, but then in reality it's not like fasting is the only thing that matters. It's just like one tool.
1:37:43
So >> I have another take on on that that maybe I'd like your reaction to.
1:37:49
Uh there's also this this trend in health influence where if I want to blow everyone's brain, I'm going to come in and uh blow everyone's mind.
1:37:59
I'll be like, "Guess what? I boil it all down.
1:38:03
It's uh sleep, diet, and exercise.
1:38:04
That's like 99% of what you need to do.
1:38:06
And everyone's like, "Man, this John guy, he's not talking about the crazy supplements.
1:38:09
He's just telling it like it is. Sleep, diet, exercise. I did it. I feel great. This is amazing."
1:38:13
And then after I've made, you know, one hour of content every week for 5 years on sleep, diet, exercise.
1:38:20
I'm like, "You know what?
1:38:22
Let's actually talk about like the 17th piece of magnesium you should take or like that the thing that's Yeah, it is beneficial, but it's 0. 001%." Yeah.
1:38:41
Do you feel like you have to go back to the basics sometimes or or do you think that there's there's actually maybe that's not even that's not even a reasonable critique? >> Yeah.
1:38:49
I think that the the thing that most people struggle with is doing things they don't want to do.
1:38:55
>> Like they don't want to overeat.
1:38:55
They don't want to eat a pint of ice cream.
1:38:58
like they don't want to drink, you know, you know.
1:39:00
So, >> yeah, >> those things are really the highest leverage interventions.
1:39:04
It's like it's behavioral. Yeah.
1:39:07
>> And so, yes, you can say sleep that exercise, but you get deep and you then uncover that American like our American society is one of addiction. >> Sure.
1:39:16
>> Like the American powers of capitalism have appointed at getting people to be addicted on food, >> right?
1:39:21
Sugar, nicotine, porn, junk food, like all of it.
1:39:23
And so this is if you look at so like just from a broad perspective you begin on western thought with political Aristotle Christianity sure medieval times renaissance uh enlightenment and modern scientific era.
1:39:36
Yeah >> like you look at these big frames we're due for a major shift and right now we're at the tail end.
1:39:41
This is like kind of a Dio kind of thought process of like these big macro trends. >> Yeah.
1:39:46
>> We're at the end and right now you know capitalism was for solving scarcity. We're now compulsive. We're now compulsive. Yeah.
1:39:54
>> And the idea was democracy was freedom of choice.
1:39:56
We now have no longer choice because we're addicted.
1:39:58
>> So we're really playing on this very big macro frame of we're a different time as a species.
1:40:03
And so yes, sleep that exercise, but in this larger frame, >> it's about what does it mean to actually be intelligent, make decisions, and you can't when you're addicted to everything. >> Yeah.
1:40:12
What do you think about some of the longer tale interventions like the the the like the third peptide that's not approved yet, but people are already taking it here?
1:40:21
It feels like is this sort of like un pseudorulated unregulated biohacking becoming more prevalent?
1:40:29
Is that the correct world in a world where the FDA is broken or does the FDA need to change or h how how do how should we like map the you know accelerating advances in science with maybe stagnation in regulatory?
1:40:43
What's your framework for that?
1:40:46
>> Yeah, I mean peptides are very powerful.
1:40:48
They're basically drugs, right?
1:40:48
So you get access to drug-like effect sizes.
1:40:51
problem is peptides are oftentimes not manufactured to spec and so you have >> risks of like putting stuff in your body that you shouldn't be putting in your body >> like they could have lead in them just like your chocolate bar >> and a bunch of other stuff. Same with stem cells.
1:41:03
So like there's there's a real quality problem.
1:41:05
>> The other problem is peptides a lot of peptides are not fully well characterized.
1:41:08
So typically drugs you say like you can do this thing but also here's a long list of side effects and that's nice because like okay at least I know what the trade-off space is.
1:41:16
With these peptides you don't have the characterization. Okay.
1:41:19
And so it's a bigger risk that people experiment.
1:41:21
You see a lot of this in bodybuilding now.
1:41:24
You have biomarker biohackers doing it. So it's fine.
1:41:26
It's just you have to understand it's the wild wild west. Sure. That may be your game. It may not.
1:41:32
But like it's definitely you want to be cautious.
1:41:33
It's not like it's a safe path.
1:41:35
But then there's other things like >> you start with the highest level of evidence.
1:41:38
You know, sauna is great. >> Yeah.
1:41:40
>> But you know, like if you I've talked about this a lot.
1:41:41
If you don't ice the boys in the sauna, >> you crush.
1:41:45
>> Can you make a ice pack?
1:41:45
I used to I used to I think we maybe talked about this last time.
1:41:48
I used there used to be this ice pack on Amazon that was for this use case and they stopped selling it and now I don't I I like I lost I lost my >> So we should they don't want you icing your boys.
1:41:59
>> I don't think they want that. Yeah.
1:42:00
>> And then a lot of men will say like I'm not trying to have you know babies so it doesn't matter but has negative feedback >> hormone hormone health. Interesting.
1:42:08
>> So yeah there so yes sleep that exercise is great but then you dive into the details. This is what I'm saying.
1:42:11
Like you you start down this path and you inevitably will spend 50% of your time chasing down >> everything >> some sort of weird root cause on whatever it is. >> It's never easy.
1:42:22
So you have infinite chase.
1:42:24
And that's what I'm saying is that's the problem trying to solve is nobody has 50% of their time to do this.
1:42:29
>> How uh how how are you thinking about wearables?
1:42:32
Because there's a world in the future where you have a camera that's effectively a sensor that's able to experience life in your in your view.
1:42:38
And that as like a health co-pilot would be pretty wild because you' be like, "Hey, hey, you you've already eaten like, you know, well beyond you assume that like cameras get better at like calorie tracking."
1:42:48
It's like, "Hey, you're well over like uh your daily caloric needs.
1:42:52
Like you're now going into a surplus.
1:42:54
Maybe ease off and maybe that's enough."
1:42:57
>> Meta Ray-B band displays like need a killer app.
1:42:58
That sounds like something you should build. What do you think? Yeah.
1:43:01
I mean the if you think about it GLP1s are kind of that >> I mean a little bit right it's like it's like modulating your hunger like your satiety and it's like so >> how do you how do you think uh we'll view GLP1s and the the explosion of their use in 50 years.
1:43:18
>> It's probably the most successful anti-aging drug ever built. >> It's incredible.
1:43:22
>> It's like you the benefits keep on accumulating. Yes, there's drawbacks.
1:43:25
They're getting better all the time.
1:43:25
But >> do you feel the same way about statins?
1:43:29
>> Uh those are they're complicated.
1:43:29
I mean, statins do have benefits, but they're complicated.
1:43:33
>> Um, do you feel like there's any value to reading into the uh the the conspiracy uh like weird vibes around the fact that like ompic came from a demon like this monster?
1:43:46
Isn't that [laughter] monster? Is it the heal monster?
1:43:48
Komodo dragon venom or something like that.
1:43:52
Like it just feels like wrong, right?
1:43:52
If you're just like, you know, just humanity 101, he'd be like, "Yeah, don't drink.
1:43:59
>> Don't become the reptile.
1:44:00
>> Don't drink the reptile venom."
1:44:00
I mean, >> you're you're he Brian might be trying to become the reptile. >> Are you into it?
1:44:06
>> The Senorian Toad gave us 5 MO DMT.
1:44:08
>> And I would say that that's bad, too.
1:44:11
That that throwed off all sorts of red flags for me.
1:44:13
>> It just got FDA approval. It did. It did.
1:44:15
>> Break status for treat uh depression treat uh resistant depression. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Treatment resistant. Yeah. Got it. Yeah.
1:44:23
>> Uh, so yeah, I mean I guess if you're sad, you need the ch you need the toad to [laughter] cheer you up, I suppose.
1:44:29
Happy I'm I'm happy if it's helping people. I'm happy.
1:44:33
Uh, it is it is just funny when we were we we we were looking at the story of ampic like a year ago.
1:44:38
What's your what's your view on uh I think everybody's hoping maybe maybe GLP1s are this and people haven't sort of fully realized it yet but everybody is kind of I feel like for a while just hoping that like oh by the time that I'm I'm a I'm really aging like I'm really feeling it uh there will just be a pill that I can take and you know I'll just be able to halt or maybe even reverse.
1:45:02
Are you like how open to to you how open are you to the idea that like there could be something that is like an order of magnitude more effective than GLP1s in terms of anti-aging like are you you know where where do you put the probability there
1:45:17
>> I mean that study that came out in from China in June they showed that they took this form of a fox3 protein they use crisper we they put it in a melencomal stem cell and delivered it via introvenous treatment it had a biological equivalent for human anti. So
1:45:30
So this was in monkeys it had a 3 to 5 year age reversal in over 50% of the tissues which is unseen >> and for human equivalent that' be like 9 to 15 years roughly.
1:45:41
So >> these demonstrations are being done.
1:45:43
I think we'll probably I was going to actually figure this out.
1:45:46
You know the the hype cycle where you you um >> Yeah. Gartner hype cycle. Exactly. Yeah.
1:45:52
Of disillusionment plateau of productivity.
1:45:54
I was going to model this out this week trying to figure out like because I think we're probably going to hit peak in something like >> GOP ones or something >> 2032 you like is like >> okay like >> okay we got some time a few things will hit people be like it's here and then >> oh and people will think that they're going to live forever and then there will be a crash and be like oh actually there's still more problems to solve. >> Exactly.
1:46:14
>> Exactly. 2035 237 people were like oh man like it's not solving this or that or we have these complications and like maybe early 2040s people were like actually we got this like something like that >> I saw some post crazy like inbound from from mad scientists all over the world that were
1:46:30
like [laughter] hey I made this thing I was talking with chat GBT for 50 hours over the last week and I figured out like let me let me come inject you >> when I was when I was building kernel with this brain interface I would get all these emails that people are like I've been implant answered by the government. >> Oh, so that would come in. But now, yes,
1:46:45
>> Oh, so that would come in.
1:46:45
But now, yes, like I do I get I don't know maybe like seven to 10 a day.
1:46:50
>> Wa people offering you experimental >> feel like I've I've discovered the quantum realm and how the how >> sick. >> Yes.
1:46:58
[laughter] It's it's wild.
1:46:59
People are excited about this topic.
1:47:01
>> Maybe some toads involved in that one. >> That's funny. Yeah.
1:47:03
I remember seeing this post a while back.
1:47:05
I I don't know if you remember it better than I do, but it was basically looking at like the the distribution of lifespans is not there's not just a single power law where everyone falls off at like 90.
1:47:16
Like you would expect if it was just a normal power law that we would get a couple 150 and like one 200y old person, but in fact there are like this double exponential effect. Yeah.
1:47:34
>> But then we still are at this like you know exponential fall off in longevity but even unlocking like one person at 200 would be amazing. >> Yeah.
1:47:42
There was this interesting paper that came out of Levven uh so he said um >> his theory after running this model was that basically after >> we reproduce our cells lose purpose like we our cells don't have a unifying objective. Yeah. Yeah.
1:47:57
>> So they just like aging just like we just don't know what to do. >> Interesting.
1:48:00
>> And so if his model is correct like biology needs don't die like they actually need an objective at a macro scale like at our level of cognition but also at a cellular level.
1:48:07
But I think like these are the kinds of experiments people are being are doing of like what >> what is the underlying incentive structure of biology? Why do we age?
1:48:16
Why do we not age in certain parts of our life?
1:48:20
>> Why do we have protective mechanisms?
1:48:22
You know why do some species regenerate?
1:48:24
So, I think it's this really exciting frontier where our ideas now of aging are beginning to crack open a little bit and expanding our horizons of like how do we think about time? Yeah.
1:48:32
And >> I mean, we talked about this last time you were on about Warren Buffett, Charlie Munger, uh not particularly famous for their biohacking, but uh incredibly resilient uh well like a life well-lived.
1:48:45
Uh so many stories about them like you know staying up drinking Coca-Cola and wine long into the night.
1:48:51
And I I want to believe that there's some level of just if you have a purpose, if you have drive, your body just pulls it together a little bit more.
1:49:00
>> I I know people want this to be like the answer.
1:49:02
Like, you [laughter] know, it's such I think it's really such a bad idea because people in their mind, they make that shortcut and they're like, you know what, I've got I just got to work harder. I got to work harder. >> Yeah.
1:49:13
>> Uh did we did we cure uh balding?
1:49:13
There was that study was last week.
1:49:16
Uh >> they're all such they're weak effects. Okay. >> Yeah.
1:49:21
You we really have not made I guess >> so long turkey.
1:49:25
>> It's a little bit embarrassing as a human race that we haven't been able to make really good strides on hair loss.
1:49:30
>> That one seems very simple. I I don't know.
1:49:32
It just seems like very mechanical.
1:49:34
You know, it it doesn't seem as complicated as like, you know, your brain degenerating.
1:49:37
We don't even know how the brain works. It's like it's hair. It just grows.
1:49:40
Like it's should be easy. >> We're working on it.
1:49:42
We just put out our best attempt.
1:49:43
We're going to see if it works.
1:49:45
Like uh we're going to try to beat every everything that's out there on market. >> Yeah. >> We'll see.
1:49:49
How important is uh this like cosmetic intervention to the blueprint plan?
1:49:54
Like because you could imagine a world where people will say, "Yeah, make me live forever, but I don't care about wrinkles and hair because unless it's going to help me actually live longer." >> Yeah. >> Why bother?
1:50:09
>> I mean, the thing is this don't die is really be hot. Like what? Like what?
1:50:14
>> Every every every every supplement company, every every every company in health, you're ultimately selling at the end of the day.
1:50:20
>> And I I think this is brilliant from a business perspective, but does it make sense in terms of the science?
1:50:23
Like does it take something out of >> Yeah.
1:50:26
No, like being hot is good science, you know, like if you look youthful and vibrant, your skin is nice and like you you're you have a lot of energy.
1:50:33
So I think be hot is legit the path for this. >> Okay. Yeah. Be hot, don't die.
1:50:39
>> How do you think about longevity in the business?
1:50:40
you know, uh, if you look at, uh, the DTOC bubble, there was a lot of companies that raised similar amount of money and and, you know, are are no longer with us.
1:50:50
I imagine you care about a lot about just making sure that don't die and blueprint survive decades and I'm sure that's informing the way you're building the >> I mean, this is like you, you know, the internet comes about, Google sets up shop and rides that tailwind.
1:51:04
Amazon sets up shop on on commerce, right?
1:51:08
Basically, somebody's going to set up shop in longevity and ride a multi-t trillion dollar ride. >> Sure.
1:51:14
>> So, that's what we're trying to do is we're trying to just be home base, win the early innings of longevity, and then ride for the multi-t trillion dollar market. >> Yeah.
1:51:22
Do you think there's a lot of like I imagine M&A will be pretty important to your strategy. a lot of companies.
1:51:26
I mean, I just view there's a lot of companies that are important that are like single product or for specific use cases that don't really necessarily need or shouldn't be because like if you're a blueprint customer, maybe you need it once every 3 years, >> but that means it could be harder to actually build a business around, but it would slot in. >> You nailed it.
1:51:46
So, basically, if you look at the landscape in health right now, nothing is proprietary.
1:51:51
>> You basic you got wearables from all these different providers.
1:51:53
You have food from different providers.
1:51:54
from different providers. you have biomarkers like nothing's proprietary >> and so the winner is going to have to out compete everybody and bringing a an experience >> to the customer that is sensible and practical and make you know so I think that's that's where the competition is going to be because this is like the
1:52:09
days when I was building Brainree Venmo is it was commoditized like you're all in the Visa Mastercard MX discover uh stack and you have to build something unique and then uh Brainree and Stripe just collapse the market >> yeah uh how do you think about Wait I now I want to hear the story of uh of the Venmo acquisition. How did that How did that happen?
1:52:29
>> Yeah, they so they built up a f so people in payments it was very clear PayPal was the only company making money. >> Okay.
1:52:37
>> Because they had both sides of the market. >> Sure.
1:52:39
>> They got lucky because they got into eBay they built the consumer side but then they had the merchant side too because otherwise if you just offer it to merchants >> your margins are pretty low, right?
1:52:47
You're making whatever >> 20 50 basis points like that.
1:52:49
And so everybody was going after PayPal, trying to build a two-sided marketplace.
1:52:54
>> And that took a lot of capital.
1:52:54
It's very hard to build from scratch.
1:52:56
And so I said, "Okay, I'm going to build uh the merchant side of the business uh first and then I'm going to acquire the consumer side."
1:53:02
I said this when I started the company.
1:53:05
>> So we got customers like Airbnb, Uber, GitHub.
1:53:07
Uh we got all the Gen Z people and then Venmo had done a fantastic job building out consumer side and we could then marry those two demographics and it's like >> perfect.
1:53:17
And so yeah, so they had built a great business, but they hadn't solved making money. >> Okay.
1:53:23
>> When they plugged into our world, we bought them for 26. 2 million. >> Yeah. >> Yeah.
1:53:27
>> How much of that was uh like not making money because of fraud.
1:53:30
I hear that like a lot of fintech companies like they actually have something where the unit economic should work, but it's always crazy in the early days.
1:53:37
So you hear the story about PayPal where PayPal was losing tons of money, but it was only because of fraud.
1:53:42
actual business when it wasn't fraudulent made sense.
1:53:44
But then once you get to scale, you can do the anti- fraud properly.
1:53:48
Is that something that you were problem solving around?
1:53:52
>> It's very hard again because you're doing peerto-peer and typically you have like like illicit purposes primarily as your driver and so it's a very hard problem.
1:53:59
So as a standalone it's hard for them to make sense because you if you have if you stack on a fee when you're paying your buddy it's hard friction in the adoption.
1:54:06
So you have to kind of speedrun adoption and then make money later. Yep.
1:54:10
>> But there was no good make money later problem.
1:54:12
Do you think do you uh I I was running uh I think it was a shower thought.
1:54:18
I was like, "Okay, there's so much cap capital slloshing around the private markets.
1:54:21
It's been interesting that we haven't seen more people like try to take on Stripe."
1:54:27
I don't know if it's I don't I'd be curious uh from your point of view at what point will people even try to climb that mountain? >> Very unlikely.
1:54:38
They've done such a great job executing.
1:54:40
I I sold uh Brainree in 2013.
1:54:42
So they've been building 12 years since.
1:54:44
They've done such a good job making that airtight. >> They're just great.
1:54:49
>> That's this is the thing is like >> Yeah.
1:54:50
You can't come in and make a 10x better >> product.
1:54:52
A Amazon locked commerce.
1:54:52
So you of course can build your e-commerce business on Shopify, but at a scale I mean Amazon has just kind of owned that entire thing.
1:55:00
It's very hard to replicate that.
1:55:01
So that's that's our goal too is we're basically trying to do that for longevity is once you collapse the entire space, it's just it's very hard to get in.
1:55:09
Okay, we got a lightning round. Favorite book.
1:55:13
>> Um >> or just a book recommendation, something you read recently that you like.
1:55:19
>> Um I just finished uh The History of the Western Mind going through all of Western thought. >> Oh, cool. Uh favorite music?
1:55:24
What's in your >> You know, I have such a soft spot for Eminem.
1:55:30
When I was when I was depressed, >> he was the only artist that I could fill. >> Okay. Love it.
1:55:36
Uh, when will humanity develop AGI?
1:55:47
[laughter] >> We ask hard.
1:55:48
You don't want to sound like a D cell.
1:55:49
You don't want to be >> Yeah. [laughter] >> Yeah.
1:55:53
Um, >> just call it right now.
1:55:54
Well, we Well, I want to be able to clip this the day [laughter] and be like, >> I want to say I want to say that uh I want to say that we'll be nice to you and we won't clip this, but I know our clipping infrastructure and we absolutely will clip this.
1:56:07
>> It's such a sucker question.
1:56:07
[laughter] >> Uh well well maybe let's flip it around uh OpenAI and Microsoft this deal where where the the the definition of AGI will be convened by a group of experts.
1:56:17
What is your definition of AGI?
1:56:23
Um I I approach this question as a more through psychology of when will humans >> feel useless >> feel useless. >> Yes.
1:56:36
Like our entire identity is based upon like we do things we contribute we build. >> Yes.
1:56:40
>> And now AI is a tool like we feel more productive with it. >> Yes.
1:56:44
>> At what point will it do everything so well you feel this deep >> hole in your stomach of like what do I do?
1:56:51
do? So what if Yeah, the weird thing is like computers are incredible at chess yet people play chess for fun and at the professional level because humans I guess they're anti-clanker and they like watching humans play chess and if we can solve that for everyone so that everyone
1:57:08
has some sort of even like in this agi world where there's no more real jobs there's no more actual okay you need to produce something for food or you know uh livability everything is just for fun for games and for status and it's all about wasn't Andre Karpathy saying you go to the gym and you'll learn in the
1:57:28
future and it's and I wonder like if your definition is once that breaks down >> that is feels really far I like that I like >> people look forward to retirement like retirement is a goal it's an ideal it's like we're going to get an RV we got to cruise the country then they retire
1:57:43
they're like this sucks like there there's not the tension so if we imagine we're going to like learn and we're going to like do yoga all day and paint and but like if there's not the tension of the stress and the of real life like do we really want to be on vacation all the time? Do we want to be at leisure?
1:57:57
Do we want to be at leisure?
1:57:59
Like so that's my like what I think about is when that happens that's a pretty unnerving situation because humans don't do well with that uncertainty and then our systems have to respond.
1:58:09
So like that's what I really think about all day every day.
1:58:11
>> That's everyone in the end is just going to be competing on biomarkers.
1:58:13
It's going to be the final [laughter] it's going to be the final status game.
1:58:19
that aligns with Carpathy's take.
1:58:19
Uh, last lightning round question and then I want you to ring the gong.
1:58:23
Um, favorite vacation spot. Where would you go? >> Redwood Forest. Redwood. I love Redwood.
1:58:31
>> Staying in California.
1:58:32
>> Yeah, I would love I love Redwoods. >> Let's go. Right. Like there. >> This is John. There's John. I love California.
1:58:36
You don't need to go to Europe. I love America.
1:58:37
I don't >> You don't need to get all the radiation on the plane. Just stay here.
1:58:42
>> They're like such beautiful, majestic creatures >> and they live a long time.
1:58:46
>> They live a long time.
1:58:46
It's very on brand for you. I love it.
1:58:48
Uh, congratulations on the round. $60 million. Fantastic progress.
1:58:51
I'd love for you to ring that gong and I'd love for you to ring it at a at a decel level that you feel is appropriate for uh hearing, you know, actually.
1:59:00
Let me Yeah, let me teach us.
1:59:03
>> Yeah, let me pull out my decel meter. Do we have my phone?
1:59:05
>> Let's make sure we get this.
1:59:06
>> Yes, let's bring over.
1:59:07
>> We don't want to be over 80 dB. >> Okay. Yes.
1:59:10
because we uh we do have IM so it is a little bit of hearing protection but I would love to know uh you can you feel free to take as many swings as you as you need but I'd [laughter] love to know uh what an 80 del uh ring sounds like.
1:59:25
>> So yeah I recently I measured my ears my left ear 64 so I have moderate mild to moderate hearing loss really which substantially increases your risk of dementia.
1:59:33
>> Oh wa >> so yeah so >> because you're going crazy because you don't you don't perceive reality properly.
1:59:37
>> Your brain's missing all these things.
1:59:39
Oh, that's crazy built for for hearing loss like concerts, social gatherings, restaurants.
1:59:44
So, yeah, I would suggest everyone get a hearing test. I just got hearing aids.
1:59:49
>> Okay, >> so all right. >> Okay, cool. >> Here we go. >> Yeah. Yeah.
1:59:51
Hit the hit that gong at at a at a longevity approved level. Let's hear it. >> All right. >> Okay. What are we at? >> How we doing? >> 90. >> 90. >> Okay. So, about that level.
2:00:05
Well, if we go any higher, we're going to need >> just just a tad. >> Yeah. Yeah, just a tad. >> There we go.
2:00:15
>> That is the Brian Johnson approve approved >> hit. >> You heard it here.
2:00:19
I bet I bet everyone in the chat is like, "Oh, finally."
2:00:22
Because we we smacked that thing so loud.
2:00:25
Fortunately, you know, we >> Dude, do you have tonitis? >> No, I don't. >> Okay.
2:00:29
>> Fortunately, but I >> I do. >> Oh, you do?
2:00:31
I've had it since I was uh my my Coachella era. >> This is the thing. >> Yeah. >> Wow. So, >> yeah.
2:00:39
Now, I I don't I don't go to concerts at all.
2:00:40
I don't pay to stand in crowds and lines.
2:00:42
Um but uh but I do I I I specifically recall uh or I believe I know the exact weekend that that uh that that uh it started.
2:00:54
>> Man, is it a pretty significant thing in your life? >> Uh no.
2:00:56
I I zone it out, but but if I take a if I like I've adapted to not hearing it.
2:01:03
But if I every >> probably few times a week I'll be in a really quiet space and realize that I have constant ringing.
2:01:13
>> Have you looked into hearing aids? >> No.
2:01:16
>> Yeah, >> maybe I should. >> Yeah.
2:01:17
So, I just got the Ottoon Intense. >> Yeah. >> Okay.
2:01:20
That that that increases your not wearing them right now. >> Not right now. Yeah.
2:01:24
>> But you you've been testing them out. >> Yeah. Exactly. I actually I I'm so sad.
2:01:28
I I was running out the door and I forgot them.
2:01:30
>> I just finished my morning routine. So, I'm still sad.
2:01:32
But yeah, but they actually they I've only had them for a week.
2:01:34
They have substantially improved my life. >> Wow. >> Yeah. >> Wow. Cool.
2:01:38
>> Well, this conversation has substantially improved my life on the show. This is fantastic.
2:01:45
>> Congratulations and we will talk again soon.
2:01:47
We have our next guest in the reream waiting room.
2:01:49
But first, let me tell you about profound.
2:01:51
Get your brand mentioned in chat GBT.
2:01:52
reach millions of consumers who are using AI to discover new products and brands.
2:01:56
And we have Nathan Mintz from CX2 in the TBP and Ultradome. Nathan, how you doing? >> Boom. >> Wonderful. Wonderful.
2:02:05
It's uh sunny and about 75 degrees outside here in East Elsagundo and uh great.
2:02:13
>> Haven't uh yeah, it's been too long since we up.
2:02:15
There's nothing like pulling open the weather app in California and it's just 10 days straight of sunny and 75 and we're lucky to have that pretty much year round.
2:02:26
>> I like all the taxes tolerable.
2:02:28
>> I like all the all the traditional press prints behind you.
2:02:30
Uh we need to send you some physical uh memorabilia >> screenshots from your >> from your TV appearances since this is your second one.
2:02:39
Um but give us the give us the update.
2:02:41
What what's new in your world? Yeah.
2:02:42
So, you know, CX2, we've been turning and burning.
2:02:45
Uh, we pretty much been racking up the frequent flyer miles, going to multiple exercises this year.
2:02:51
I think we're [clears throat] about to go to number eight next week.
2:02:55
>> Um, and one of the things we realized as we go around, we talk to leaders and we talk to uh the war fighters and stuff is that there's kind of a a nebulous understanding of the nature of the problem that we're facing.
2:03:06
So, we decided to get together with uh some of the most knowledgeable war fighters we know.
2:03:12
uh along with our experts here and you know really write it down in in booklet form as the spectrum imperative and if you go to our website cx2.
2:03:19
com there's a big banner >> or you can try and type in spectrumimpmperative.
2:03:25
com I'm not the best speller so I would just go to the our website and then go from there.
2:03:29
our website and then go from there. Uh but really what we're trying to do is come up with what is the core thesis >> of electromagnetic warfare in the 21st century because the the electromagnetic spectrum is this cross domain across the
2:03:46
entire uh all the other domains of warfare land sea space air and and cyber that connects all of them and particularly as everything moves to more autonomous systems uh we are seeing more and increasing reliance upon on the spectrum
2:04:02
uh and it becomes a more contested domain of warfare which because we had the luxury of working for 20 years during the you know global war on terror Iraq etc where we had permissive access to this spectrum and air superiority we never had to worry about it before
2:04:19
>> and now it's something that as we're seeing every day in Ukraine when it's heavily contested our ability to have air superiority air dominance >> or really to maneuver on other uh in other domains is severely impeded by it. >> Can you help me can you help me
2:04:35
>> Can you help me can you help me synthesize uh Palmer Ly's latest sound bite around uh America as the world's arms dealer as opposed to the America the world police.
2:04:46
This idea that uh American defense technology companies will be building products that America basically sells or deploys to other countries.
2:04:56
like what does that look like in Ukraine for you in Taiwan in the Middle East?
2:05:02
Um how is that different than uh America, the World Police where you're designing a system that's ultimately used by American boots on the ground?
2:05:12
>> So uh in traditional defense, I spent 14 years in traditional defense. Yeah.
2:05:16
>> I think I pulled my passport out of my drawer three times and one of them was for one time was for my honeymoon, right?
2:05:24
versus in the last five years that I've been involved with new defense, I think I've been abroad six or seven times. Right?
2:05:30
So, that kind of gives you an idea.
2:05:31
Actually, the last year, I think I've been abroad four or five times.
2:05:35
So, where we're going, you know, now it's much more common for us to go visit the war fighter up in the battlefield and understand their situation and try and figure out how we can adapt what we're building to go along with them.
2:05:46
And I think that's what Porter what Palmer's referring to is how do we, you know, work alongside our allies.
2:05:51
This is actually one of our uh one of our talking points within the within the spectrum imperative is that we need to be more integrated with our allies from a spectrum standpoint.
2:05:59
We have to be compatible with their radio systems, compatible with their sensor systems, compatible with their command and control systems, and that's a huge part of the spectrum imperative.
2:06:08
So, um I think I think that's what Palmer's really referring to is how do we get them >> Yeah.
2:06:15
>> to to work with us to buy what the gaps in their capabilities or build them indigenously.
2:06:20
You know, there's a lot of talk about factories at the edge or, you know, forwardleaning supply chains to deal with contested logistics.
2:06:26
Y >> that's kind of the I think the direction where Palmer's going.
2:06:30
>> I What is the latest update on what's going on in Ukraine?
2:06:34
It feels like it's fast becoming a forever war.
2:06:38
Unfortunately, at the same time, I've been hearing um new updates on drones with fiber optic cables to avoid, you know, uh the the problems of uh electronic and magnetic warfare, right?
2:06:54
Uh like what's what like what's the state of the the the conflict and then uh what's actually on the cutting edge of what the various militaries are using? >> Yeah.
2:07:06
So Ukraine uh what's basically happened is the front lines have been relatively frozen and it's because if you think about it you need to have you know uncontested data link uh you know data links at the spectrum layer you need uncontested navigation etc or else you're kind of swimming upstream.
2:07:23
So effectively they've created this, you know, no man's land of electronic concertina wire in minefields that really impedes any forward motion.
2:07:32
And 98% of the action is occurring with autonomous systems, whether that's drones or unmanned ground vehicles >> or uh >> unmanned surface vessels.
2:07:43
>> Uh the Ukrainians have actually been probably the most successful with the USVs in the Black Sea.
2:07:47
They've pretty much pushed the Russians completely out of Sebastapole. Yeah.
2:07:51
uh completely out of Crimea and now they have to go all the way to their ports on the eastern uh side of the uh the the Black Sea to actually like you know keep their ships safe, right?
2:08:02
So that's a case study where autonomous systems or actually automated systems in this case because it's still human-driven. >> Yeah.
2:08:10
>> Have been able to really make a a difference in that conflict.
2:08:12
Meanwhile, the whole concept of a forward line of advance or forward edge of the battle area is now completely obsolete in the sense that you can have drones pop up from many kilometers behind the lines and hit strategic targets, which is specifically what we saw with Operation Spiderweb. Yeah.
2:08:30
>> Now, you mentioned tethered drones.
2:08:32
Those were very popular in the Kursk offensive.
2:08:34
Actually, the Russians were the first to introduce them and the Ukrainians then followed suit.
2:08:37
And the whole idea was that well if there's nothing to jam then you can fight through all the jamming.
2:08:44
The trouble is is that the the the tether drones in some cases within the Kurts offensive actually turn into about 30% of the drones being used at any given time at its peak.
2:08:56
But it has it's a brittle solution.
2:08:59
If you go around a tree you can snag it. >> Yeah.
2:09:02
>> Uh if you know uh the lines can be cut quite easily.
2:09:05
Um you know there's all sorts of limitations.
2:09:07
And then not not to mention overwater, it's like running a fishing line.
2:09:11
If it touches the water at all, it's going to weigh down the drone and take it down with it.
2:09:14
So, >> I hadn't thought about that. >> Yeah.
2:09:18
So, tethered drones like have their time in place.
2:09:20
It's a little unclear how uh applicable they will be in uh in in like the Pacific for example.
2:09:28
Uh, but you know, for things like persistent surveillance where you're putting a drone up in the air, uh, and you know, you can actually run power up to it for surveillance, it may make a lot of sense, right?
2:09:39
>> I hadn't even thought about that.
2:09:39
That's super interesting.
2:09:42
>> Yeah, but it's Maslo's hammer. >> Yeah. >> Yeah.
2:09:44
There there is no silver bullet.
2:09:46
There is no >> What was the phrase you used? You said Maslo's hammer. >> Yeah. Maslo's hammer.
2:09:50
That if I have a a hammer, everything looks like a nail. >> Oh, sure.
2:09:54
And so that's what tends to happen with any s sort of new countermeasures.
2:09:58
It's first involved and then the enemy saturates and counters it.
2:10:02
In fact, probably the biggest paradigm shift we've seen >> in the Ukraine war that will be very applicable in the Pacific is this idea that all of our systems are highly adaptable.
2:10:12
That both us and the enemy are operating on a much faster uh fly fix loop and countermeasure loop than what we're used to seeing.
2:10:20
We're used to seeing years for new systems to be introduced.
2:10:23
we'll be looking at more like weeks or possibly even days in some cases >> and augmented by commercial software practices like CI/CD and other things update.
2:10:33
>> Uh sorry we have to move on so quickly but thank you for the update and uh congratulations on the on all the progress.
2:10:39
Uh definitely encourage everyone to go check out the spectrum imperative campaign from CX2.
2:10:43
Uh and we will talk to you soon.
2:10:48
>> Yeah, great to catch up Nathan.
2:10:49
>> We'll talk to you soon. Bye.
2:10:49
Uh before we bring in our next guest, let me tell you about linear.
2:10:53
Linear is a purpose-built tool for planning and building products.
2:10:56
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2:11:01
Our next guest is James Proud from Substrate. Welcome to the show.
2:11:04
James, how are you doing? >> Suited up. Love it.
2:11:10
>> Thank you for having me, guys. It's an honor. >> You look fantastic.
2:11:12
uh please introduce uh yourself, give us a little bit of the backstory, and then uh tell us the general o overview of the company, what you're building, and where it's positioned in the in the supply chain of the semiconductor uh industry. >> Sure.
2:11:28
I I I think quite simply what we're what we're doing is a bet that America can do hard things again. Yeah.
2:11:34
>> And that uh if it's important enough, >> then we can go and do it.
2:11:36
It's not a question of whether we can or not.
2:11:38
And I think when it comes to advanced chips, I think we all know and we all believe this is certainly important enough.
2:11:44
And so our our our bet is that the United States invented this technology.
2:11:51
We can invent the next generation again.
2:11:52
And and starting with the core process of lithography is how you can actually go and make a what we think a next generation foundry. >> Yep. Okay.
2:12:02
So I I think many viewers will be familiar with the general semiconductor stack.
2:12:07
You have the design shops like Nvidia.
2:12:10
You have your TSMC, the FAB.
2:12:13
You have ASML, the the lithography machinery maker.
2:12:16
You might have Trump or uh Zeiss or some other supplier deeper in the chain.
2:12:22
Um how do you see yourself fitting in?
2:12:25
Are you vertically integrated?
2:12:27
Do you want to come in and at the ASML level, at the TSMC level?
2:12:30
Uh we've talked to other teal fellows like the folks at Etched where they're not setting up a fab but they are designing a new chip and they're going to work with at TSMC to run that process.
2:12:42
How do you see yourself fitting into the stack?
2:12:46
>> Yeah, we're we're we're slightly insane and we think that the the United States can build and sustain a new pure play foundry business.
2:12:53
Um and to do that we need to be a little bit more vertically integrated than usual.
2:12:57
Usually you have the tooling makers, you have the fabs that buy the tools.
2:13:00
We see ours is more a sort of return to uh the beginning of the industry where everyone sort of did a little bit of everything.
2:13:07
And so for us, we're we're going to start making our own tools specifically around the lithography piece. >> Yep.
2:13:14
That makes a ton of sense.
2:13:16
>> Uh you've been on a on a press blitz this week uh all all over the map.
2:13:19
What was what was the last year like leading up until this point?
2:13:24
What have been what have you been focused on?
2:13:26
And then what does the next year look like specifically in terms of making progress against all these goals?
2:13:34
>> Um, honestly, incredibly, incredibly hard.
2:13:37
I I there's a there's a there's a video that I'm sure you guys have seen of when Elon was being interviewed about the Model 3 ramp and he he sort of looks at the like looks at the floor and talks about how his head and heart physically hurt from how hard he had to work.
2:13:51
And um I know exactly what that feels like and I'm sure a lot of our team do as well.
2:13:58
But as I said, it goes back to like is this important enough to actually make it happen?
2:14:02
And and and we believe that that this certainly is and we're very proud of the results that we have and and wanted to show the world and sort of tell people what we believe and and um what we're doing.
2:14:13
and and um what we're doing. And then what what is uh you know more tactically like what are you know this is uh the kind of company that uh that it's uh the the true potential will only be able to achieved be achieved across decades
2:14:29
right this is not the kind of company you start uh and expect to um uh you know it's it's it's a it's it's a massive journey but like how do you break it up with the team like what what are you looking to accomplish more uh specifically in the next like one to two years. >> Well, moving quickly, I think, is is is
2:14:46
>> Well, moving quickly, I think, is is is sort of one of the the key important parts of this.
2:14:52
I think that this 10 years from now is far less important for the United States 2, three, four from now.
2:14:58
And so, our goal is in 2028 to actually have a facility constructed and be running wafers.
2:15:03
And so, um, one of the reasons why we're coming out publicly is it's going to be very hard to start building big particle accelerators, big clean rooms in in secret.
2:15:14
And so, the the the goal is we we start doing that very quickly and sprint to 28.
2:15:20
>> Walk through some of the milestones to date.
2:15:22
Uh, do you have to come up with new ways to etch chips essentially because of IP and you or do you need to do a bunch of licensing deals?
2:15:32
Is it is a big piece of the equation for the last year been marshalling capital and then placing orders to buy equipment and build up a facility?
2:15:44
There's so many different ways that the business could take shape if the general goal is like let's build a fab in America.
2:15:51
I can imagine a bunch of different ways to solve that.
2:15:54
But how did you go about solving it? >> Yeah.
2:15:57
So, so up to now the company is is really three years old and and the the big thrust so far has been building lithography tools, demonstrating that they work, printing the the smallest things that that human humans are able to go and print.
2:16:11
And um that's been the focus really up to now.
2:16:14
And in terms of like what kind of tool, the IP and and and the like, our focus has been how do you reduce cost and complexity.
2:16:21
And so all of the design choices we've made have been driven by that.
2:16:25
And and really like EUV and and the tools that that exist today, these are modern miracles.
2:16:32
These things are incredible.
2:16:32
The engineering incredible.
2:16:34
But but but the choices were made in the in the the really the '9s and and took a while to scale up.
2:16:41
Our approach has been on the lithography side.
2:16:44
If you were building a next generation lithography tool today, would you make the same technical choices?
2:16:50
We've believed no and and the answer is no.
2:16:54
>> What's it been like on the recruiting side?
2:16:55
Have you been visiting the Netherlands, visiting Taiwan?
2:16:57
How are you thinking about building uh building building uh the the team going forward? >> Yeah. Yeah.
2:17:06
>> Yeah. Yeah. as as I I sort of said at the start like this has been primarily it sounds very simplistic but a bet on the United States I bet that we still have the best engineers the best scientists the best national labs like if you look at the history of semiconductors this was all invented by the United States transistors finfet
2:17:27
like American companies usually maybe it's basically been IBM and Intel that invented all of that stuff and so like the the bet is that we have the people, we have the talent, it's just can we actually have a new direction and and so that's been um the the work that we've done and so predominantly we've been recruiting from American companies, US national labs. So all here
2:17:49
So all here >> yeah that's why America can do things like the chips act and can restrict uh the way ASML equipment moves to China because uh America because these the IP was developed here in America.
2:18:04
So even if it's changed hands, we still have uh some leverage. Uh fascinating.
2:18:09
Uh take us through the fund raise.
2:18:11
Uh how did it come together? Who's involved?
2:18:14
What's the story with the latest fund raise?
2:18:16
It feels like a big ambitious project that needs some very ambitious capital, but uh what happened?
2:18:25
>> So So I want to actually quickly go back to your your previous point about export restrictions.
2:18:29
restrictions. I a big belief that we've had is that we we shouldn't bet that China won't do this and and and and a big part of what we're doing is that like there's there's there's there there's the United States and there's China and those are really the two countries that can actually
2:18:46
attempt something like this and because of export restrictions we know they're trying and and and our belief is that if we're not trying to build what a next generation foundry looks like today we might wind up 5 10 years down the line in a in a really difficult place. And so
2:18:59
And so that's been a big sort of motivation because of the the timelines.
2:19:03
These take these things take a while to play out on on the funding.
2:19:07
Um I I know there's a there's a 100 plus number that's out like that's a more actually historical, but clearly we're not going to build a a fab with that amount of money.
2:19:16
Um the the key thing though is that unlike I think sort of traditional semiconductor fabs because we focused on vertically integrating tools, we can reduce that cost and complexity.
2:19:28
So you don't need to spend 10 plus billion dollars to even get something up and running.
2:19:33
We think we can actually get that done for for a much much lower cost.
2:19:37
Um, and then on on on the the the previous money that was announced, I think a huge shout out needs to go to our investors because because really when when I started this company, I said there's a 1% chance of success and they still invested.
2:19:52
And so, um, for for the Founders Fund, the General Catalysts of the world and and all of the others, um, these guys deserve [clears throat] a huge amount of, um, credit.
2:20:01
Like that's true venture capital.
2:20:04
And um we think hopefully with these results um we're showing that yeah these these crazy bets can work.
2:20:12
>> Uh is there any world where you partner with uh strategic investors or someone else in the stack?
2:20:17
Is there a is there a natural bed fellow in the ecosystem that doesn't feel m like feels like there might be some synergy here long term?
2:20:29
I mean 100% like uh for for the entire American economy it's now basically built on top of AI which is built on top of advanced semiconductors and so um there's like we see this as a sort of a a whole of nation effort and so the the more people we can partner with we're we're very open to that. >> Very exciting.
2:20:47
Well, thank you so much for coming on the show.
2:20:50
>> Congratulations coming out of Stealth >> massive week and uh I'm sure you'll be back on very soon.
2:20:55
>> We'll talk to you soon.
2:20:56
>> And thank you the production team.
2:20:58
thanks you for potentially the most uh perfect uh Zoom interview. >> It looks fantastic.
2:21:05
>> So uh shout out to shout out to your team.
2:21:08
>> I like the im as well.
2:21:08
That that's a nice touch.
2:21:10
Have a great rest of your day. Great stuff. We'll talk. >> Thank you guys. [clears throat] Bye. >> See you.
2:21:14
>> Up next we got Sean Maguire from Seoia Capital coming. Oh, what's he wearing?
2:21:20
What's he wearing on the hat? >> There he is.
2:21:23
>> I got so excited about the hat.
2:21:23
I forgot to do the ad read. numeralhq.
2:21:24
com sales tax on autopilot spend less than five minutes per month on sales tax. Okay, thank you. Now, now I got Sean. Sorry. Sorry.
2:21:32
[laughter] I saw you on the preview screen with the hat. I got excited.
2:21:36
I brought you in prematurely before I could do the ad read. Anyway, how are you? Good to see you.
2:21:41
>> Big week uh Sequoa Capital. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
2:21:43
Uh actually explain what happened.
2:21:46
Some new funds uh raised, but how do you frame all of like the actual progress and the actual announcement like what happened? What is up, boys?
2:21:54
You guys have become celebrities since last time I was here. You got Satia Nadella.
2:21:58
You got all these legends and then jokers like me.
2:22:01
Um >> Oh, you kicked it off. You kicked it off.
2:22:05
>> Anyway, [laughter] it's been amazing to watch. And yeah, I got the hat. I'm repping for you.
2:22:10
>> And I got to say, this last guy had the best Zoom and audio setup ever.
2:22:12
And you know, again, I'm just online.
2:22:17
>> Well, no, this is your zone.
2:22:17
This is your zone when you when you know anytime there's controversy on the timeline, you just flip open the laptop, hit record, 30 minute video, >> single take with and this is this is what people want.
2:22:29
They want something that just feels like, okay, I'm actually talking to the person in their office.
2:22:32
I get the texture of what their life is actually like.
2:22:36
I'm sure this is what tons of founders see when they pitch you.
2:22:40
They they open up and this is who's on the other end of the line, right? >> Something like that.
2:22:43
It work, you know, it works to be somewhat relatable. Yeah, that's great. >> Yeah.
2:22:48
So, look, we're dropping new funds. We're very lucky.
2:22:50
Sequo has been in business for over 50 years.
2:22:53
You know, this is the next vintage of our >> overnight success. >> Overnight success.
2:23:02
[laughter] [gasps] >> You know, Sequoia's backed a couple small companies in the past.
2:23:05
First investor in Nvidia.
2:23:08
>> Nvidia, >> uh, series A of Apple, series A of Google.
2:23:11
Let's go >> on and on and on.
2:23:12
>> on and on and on. Next venture fund vintage dropping venture fund 19 >> 19 >> um also seed fund six >> wow >> seed is you know something that we used to combine inside our venture funds but wanted to place a major emphasis on it
2:23:29
really to show the distinction >> um and I would say so anyways fund size 750 million and 200 million for seed >> something that I think is >> is there is there a growth fund as part of this is that a separate thing is that offcycle right now. >> Yeah. So, the growth fund different >> Yeah.
2:23:44
So, the growth fund different cycle announced their funds recently. >> Got it.
2:23:49
>> Um something that I'm honestly very proud of.
2:23:52
I joined Sequoia six years ago >> and I feel like this is the first fund cycle where we really have like a new team, a cracked generation of young people and that have been now been working together for five plus years.
2:24:08
And so, just it really feels like we're firing all cylinders.
2:24:10
We got Stephanie with, >> you know, skilled on stage with Jensen yesterday and, you know, reflection.
2:24:16
We got Constantine hitting his stride with Expo and >> bunch of other companies.
2:24:22
You know, we got >> everyone on the team has some amazing portfolio companies.
2:24:27
Um, >> you know, and then the growth team, you have so many great people.
2:24:30
Pat, Andrew, you know, >> Andrew taking companies public every day now, >> etc.
2:24:38
And a whole new generation there, too.
2:24:40
uh any any uh any specific kind of like decision- making or insight around like how you guys decided kind of the fund sizes specifically was that uh I'm sure you know uh based on a lot of learnings over the last few years and and seems like a commitment to like driving uh driving like real venture returns and and staying committed to that.
2:25:00
But what what more can you say there?
2:25:03
>> Yeah, no, you nailed it.
2:25:03
Um, something I think people kind of misunderstand about Sequoia and I look I got to drop the flex but you know Sequoia has this outsized history in terms of the scale of companies we've backed.
2:25:17
Like if you look at the NASDAQ about 30% of the NASDAQ by market cap were early sequoia you know companies.
2:25:27
>> Um, pretty wild >> crazy >> but but we actually don't invest in that many companies per year.
2:25:32
many companies per year. like we really try to keep it pretty focused and targeted where we can be active company builders and there was a pressure the last few years and and I would say like we were we got caught up a little during
2:25:47
the COVID era as everyone did and our pace increased um but we've just gone back to basics and we're really just focused on ultra high quality like finding just true outlier founders that have really big vision and and kind of rolling up our sleeves. to help them
2:26:02
to help them build these companies.
2:26:04
It's just we're trying we're trying to not get too caught up in any of the trends.
2:26:08
We're trying to be like ahead of trends and um you know keep the fund size just where we can actually have we we strive for minimum 10x net returns like that is that is our goal for every fund and >> that's where we want to be.
2:26:25
>> What about actual team structure, team size?
2:26:27
Uh is has there been any evolution in the thought process around how large the partnership is, how large the support structure is, the the back office, the you know uh h how all of that fits together.
2:26:41
Is there anything that's structurally changing or do you see it as like kind of just a a slight evolution of the of the of the same plan? >> Great question.
2:26:52
So we're I you know we we have to be paranoid at Sequoa.
2:26:58
Like that's our our secret is being ultra paranoid and just trying to outwork everyone. >> Yeah.
2:27:04
Didn't a Sequoia founder say that. >> Some I hope so. >> I think so.
2:27:09
>> Um but we went through a pretty hardcore generational transition, you know, five, six years ago.
2:27:15
>> Most of the team was not here eight years ago.
2:27:18
You have people like Rudolph and Alfred that have been here for a long time on the early team and and kind of have helped and Doug when he was active helping to kind of bridge the generational divide.
2:27:29
But I would say where we've innovated is kind of with new team and then otherwise really trying to just stay true to the roots of Sequoia active company building you know focus on both like really trying to understand market structures and find outlier founders.
2:27:45
I think that's that's something that's different about Sequoa is it's we're not we're not like a an or it's not founder or market.
2:27:51
We're it's an and like we want founder and market.
2:27:55
In terms of everything else, I would actually say we've almost gone back to basics a little bit more like you know we have we have a wonderful operating team.
2:28:04
Um and that's something that you know we built up over the last five or six years but we've basically kept it pretty steady in terms of size.
2:28:12
is like we we feel good about where everything is and now we just need to execute. >> Okay.
2:28:18
Defend the venture capitalist because I'm going to make the argument that the that the venture capitalist, not Sequoia in particular, but venture capital as an entire category is cooked, chopped, destroyed. It's over. The game's over. And here's my thesis.
2:28:31
Uh >> what was Roloff's quote the other day? It's >> Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
2:28:36
>> It's it's not an asset class.
2:28:36
He said, "Venture capital is not an asset class," which I 100% agree with. It was a great quote.
2:28:41
who said it's a rewardfree risk.
2:28:44
[laughter] >> It's a reward free risk. That's a great quote.
2:28:46
But uh but specifically, I want you to address this kind of maybe it's a headwind, maybe it's not. You tell me.
2:28:52
Um there's this idea that uh you are a venture capitalist. You can see the future.
2:28:57
You know that self-driving cars are coming are coming and your options are Whimo and Tesla.
2:29:02
Like you can't get venture exposure to that necessarily.
2:29:04
Uh you're excited about humanoid robots.
2:29:08
Oh, well Tesla's in in that.
2:29:08
uh you're excited about uh AI.
2:29:10
Well, like if you wanted to play like Open AI took a billion dollars from uh from Microsoft and all the VCs were getting in small slices.
2:29:21
No one was able to build a 30% position in that company like they would have done in the previous era with a Facebook or with a Google.
2:29:27
Um >> yeah, John was texting me last night joking.
2:29:32
He's like, "It's absolutely criminal that Satia didn't get Carrie on on the on the OpenAI investment." [laughter] >> Yeah.
2:29:37
And and I mean I I don't know your thesis on quantum computing. It feels very early.
2:29:43
>> I love the series A and ion Q which is a public quantum computing company. >> Let's go. Okay. The quantum information.
2:29:49
>> So maybe that so maybe that works. Yeah.
2:29:50
Maybe we need to go there.
2:29:50
But it feels like there's also competition from big hyperscalers in that market.
2:29:55
>> We need we need the Martin Scrowley Sean Magcguire debate on quantum. >> Oh yeah.
2:29:58
I'm actually closer to Martin in a lot of [laughter] a lot of views. >> Yeah.
2:30:03
Uh so maybe like the Martin and Sean conversation rather than >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> Okay.
2:30:09
So yeah, let's let's let's table quantum particular in particular and let's instead say uh how does venture capital play in a world where frontier technologies take 10 billion and 20 years to mature self-driving cars, AI, etc.
2:30:26
Look, I think Ruv nailed it when he said that venture capital is not an asset class.
2:30:32
Like, >> but we don't do it the way other people do, you know, and and granted there's a couple funds I respect unbelievably deeply that have a lot in common with us.
2:30:44
>> A couple, [laughter] we are only respect.
2:30:49
>> There are two people I respect [laughter] >> and there's there's a couple funds.
2:30:51
Um but but look we're we're really deeply involved oftentimes in like the formation of companies.
2:30:58
I think >> in the last year there's been at least five or six companies where we signed term sheets be or sorry where we were involved in the putting together of companies like before before they even incorporated you know we were >> um kind of structuring the companies bringing the founders together.
2:31:16
My partner David Khan played a big role in bringing Kella together for example. Yeah.
2:31:21
Um which is an Israeli defense tech company where you know there was a very talented founder that a bunch of us knew alone drawer who had a general idea but he didn't have the right team for it and I would say his initial idea was wrong and we helped him with the idea and then David brought in had a vision of bringing this woman home with Tom Meridor and that combination is magic.
2:31:43
Um, and I I really it's hard to explain how frequently we do that.
2:31:45
And so it's like if you're a passive investor at the late stage, there's no alpha today in VC or very little.
2:31:56
But that's just not the game we play. We're extremely active.
2:31:58
I mean, my partner Jim gets incubated Palo Alto Networks. Yeah.
2:32:02
You know, Rut Rulof both uh invested in YouTube with three people and they worked in the Sequo office in the beginning.
2:32:07
And I mean I can give you so many examples >> like this.
2:32:12
And so I just we don't think of ourselves as as just like an index on the basket.
2:32:18
We're trying to like bend the arc on the asset class.
2:32:21
And look, I'm going to give a shout out to Founders Fund.
2:32:23
Like they do this incredibly well.
2:32:25
They've been incubating companies.
2:32:27
They bring a founder mentality, you know, more passive. >> My Yeah.
2:32:31
my my uh I mean yeah obviously like Sequoia and Founders Fund incredible returns like the model's clearly working.
2:32:38
I guess maybe it doesn't matter that Sequoia and Founders Fund like I don't know all all the funds it just feels like there's a world where uh self-driving happens or some other big huge h humanoid robots.
2:32:53
It happens, but it happens in a way that the value isn't captured by venture capitalist.
2:32:59
And that's what I'm wondering. >> I'm not worried.
2:33:02
I'm not worried about it.
2:33:04
>> You're not worried about that? Okay.
2:33:05
>> I'm not worried about it.
2:33:05
I think there will be a lot of value captured in the public markets.
2:33:09
You know, like one of the best one of the best, you know, trades you can make in AI the last five years is obviously buying Nvidia. >> Nvidia.
2:33:16
Y >> the same was true with crypto though.
2:33:19
Like you could just buy Bitcoin.
2:33:19
You know, buying Bitcoin outperformed basically every crypto investment. Yeah.
2:33:25
But Coinbase was still an amazing investment.
2:33:27
I think Bitcoin like at almost every point in time slightly outperformed Coinbase. >> Yeah. >> Um maybe not.
2:33:33
>> I've heard from investors that that's why they passed on Coinbase because they were like, I'll just buy Bitcoin.
2:33:36
And >> it's actually a big part of why Sequoia passed on Coinbase in the time. Yeah.
2:33:41
>> Um so look, like I think we've seen this play out many times before, but I'll give you a counter.
2:33:46
Funny thing in there is that the reason why Bitcoin has done so well is probably because there were VCs that were like, "Yeah, I'll pay for the R&D at Coinbase to make it accessible."
2:33:56
And then the price went up and so everyone else is you you and FF were free riding maybe.
2:34:00
Yeah, we we [clears throat] we were there's always been this dynamic though, you know, like the famous telco buildout in the late 90s where global crossing and all the, you know, there were 17 fiber companies that went public and were very highly valued and then investors lost all their money, but that fiber buildout laid the pathway for, you know, SAS and consumer internet companies in the early 2000s.
2:34:24
like this dynamic is always happening and I I think as investors we just have to try to stay counteryclical, try to stay ahead of the bubbles, try to figure out what are the second order effects of the bubbles like whenever you concentrate huge amounts of capital
2:34:38
there will be all this new infrastructure that you can take advantage of and and so we're just >> you know like defense tech is an area where we were not very active in before the war in Ukraine and tragically that war was a catalyst. Yeah. And you have Yeah.
2:34:51
And you have to identify like even though you have a C there's probably only a 6 to 12 month window where defense tech is nonobvious.
2:35:00
And so like we made three or four I think really good investments in that period you know like Nuros like Stark like >> um you know Kella a little after that.
2:35:12
Um and you just have to be ahead of the curve because like now I think defense tech is becoming >> consensus. it's too obvious.
2:35:17
And so it's like valuations are incredibly high, >> but it's just like that's our job at Sequoa is to be ahead of the curve on these things and and there's just always going to be opportunities to make money if you're proactive.
2:35:29
>> Uh venture capitalists uh buy minority positions in companies and you can be on the board and you can be adding value and helpful.
2:35:39
Uh but there's this after you kind of deploy into a company there can be uh kind of this grass is always greener thing where it's like you can meet like another five companies the next day and there's always like this this influx of opportunity.
2:35:51
You've been at Sequoia now for years and you have an opportunity to meet new companies every day or or you know get on the phone with existing portfolio companies uh some of which are maybe doing really well some of which are maybe not.
2:36:04
Like I I was curious if Sequoia like has any lessons throughout history of of companies that like uh that you guys draw on of companies that kind of like hit rough patches and people were maybe less excited about but like found a way to have you know get to another kind of inflection point.
2:36:21
Um because I feel like you have 50 years of history.
2:36:24
A lot of being a great firm is just remembering what made you great and having these sort of like lessons that are like IP effectively.
2:36:33
Oh man, this is such an astute point and and look, I think this is one of the superpower I'd say has a lot of superpowers.
2:36:40
You know, one is we just have this network.
2:36:42
A lot of the founders we back were employees at, you know, prior Sequoia portfolio companies.
2:36:48
So there's that flywheel.
2:36:48
There's like the institutional knowledge, you know, moat.
2:36:54
There's just like the there's a customer moat where we have there's so many companies that you know they've someone that bought whiz early and it it made them look really good as a siso or CIO like they're more likely to buy like the ne like eon the next infrastructure company.
2:37:13
So there's all the there's all these moes but um or advantages but on this one incredibly astute point Alfred Lynn tells a story of how Door Dash really struggled to raise like at least one or two rounds of funding.
2:37:27
You know I'm sure you remember like Uber was the hottest company in the world for a long time and Door Dash was Door Dash was like number three or so in the space.
2:37:36
It was really hard for them to raise.
2:37:38
I think it was a series C.
2:37:40
I may be off by like maybe a series B or D, but I think this is series C. He tells the story.
2:37:44
Postmates was pretty hot. It's as well.
2:37:46
And then Postmates was hot.
2:37:48
There were a bunch of legacy platforms like GrubHub and and been around before too.
2:37:53
>> So, it was a blood bath.
2:37:53
It was ultra competitive economics hadn't yet become positive.
2:37:57
They really struggled to raise around.
2:38:00
>> You know, Airbnb obvious like Sequoia was the first investor or or led the seed round.
2:38:05
Sorry, not first investor. They did YC.
2:38:06
They did YC. you know, we invested $600,000 at like a $3 million valuation and they went through some incredibly hard times even even like during co I mean >> for them I remember Alfred's updates it was just unbelievably brutal period it was like easy to give up on them and
2:38:23
that may sound crazy given the scale they're at today but >> you know also with Elon like SpaceX and Tesla were on the verge of death um at multiple points and when you have these when you have these experiences like it it really is an institutional knowledge like you know weapon. Um,
2:38:44
weapon. Um, >> yeah, cuz it's just not it's way less it's way less fun to jump on the phone with a port co that's like totally struggling and they're going to say like, "Hey, we need a bridge or can you introduce me to some some more investors
2:38:58
and it's like, well, it's not fun to introduce a company that's struggling to other investors cuz they're it's it's way more fun to introduce a company that's ripping because you're like, you know, throwing a bone to them." Um, I
2:39:08
Um, I was curious to get a sense of like your activity in in H1 of this year versus now.
2:39:16
Have you picked up the pace?
2:39:16
Have you slowed down at all?
2:39:18
What's been um what's it been looking like? I'm embarrassed.
2:39:23
I saw the data recently like a few weeks ago, but I have so much going on, including a lot of, you know, Twitter drama as you guys see, and I some somehow I don't remember the exact pacing data, and so I don't want to be wrong.
2:39:35
We're a registered investment adviser now, so these things are >> Oh, yeah.
2:39:38
This is like doubly hard >> when we're wrong.
2:39:41
>> Every time you come on, I [laughter] want to ask you about stuff that you can't talk about because of RAIA >> and I don't care about whatever you're going viral for on Twitter.
2:39:49
Um, can you talk about data centers in space? You're Caltech PhD. Do you understand it?
2:39:54
Does it make sense to me?
2:39:58
>> Am I team Delion or am I team?
2:40:00
>> I wasn't going to make I wasn't going to make it about that.
2:40:01
You could be you could you could comment on it at a more abstract layer level but uh but you know you're obviously a big >> this is something I thought a lot about.
2:40:13
I mean like for 15 years I started a failed space launch company in 2007.
2:40:16
So you know and this was this is an idea we actually thought a lot about.
2:40:21
actually thought a lot about. Look, I think I think the reality is no one really knows and actually something I told Delian with Varta like you know I passed on Varta in the early days which I should have made the investment and the way I describe it to Delian now is I
2:40:37
think he had the right macro idea and the wrong micro idea >> and to unpack that like >> the micro idea is they wanted to make ZBLAN this like ultra pure you know fiber optic cables it's like dude we don't need ZB land in a world with Starling We're like ZBLand's good for long distance data movement. We're going
2:40:53
We're going to do it all with Star the long distance data movement is going to happen in space with Starlink and um but the I think the macro idea of just building space infrastructure, building an incredible team, you know, building like learning how to build satellites.
2:41:08
I think that their timing couldn't be better just in terms of what's going to happen to the space economy over the next 10 years on the back of SpaceX and Starship.
2:41:16
Y >> and I think their ability to just concentrate talent and be in position to pounce when the opportunities come up is something that should not be underestimated.
2:41:25
And so some with these data center companies in space there are two very real serious unknowns.
2:41:29
One is like just the thermal properties dissipating heat in space is insanely hard and anyone that says they figured it out right now like they have not figured it out.
2:41:42
They may figure it out in this in the just >> and it's because you need a lot of surface area, right?
2:41:46
Is that is that >> Yeah, there there's basically there's like no thermal connectivity or very little of space as a medium and so heat that leaves any unit area whatever in space.
2:41:58
it just it stays close to the satellite in space and so you need you can move things around inside the satellite but once heat leaves the satellite it'll just heat up a little local pocket of space around you and takes a very long time to dissipate away from the satellite.
2:42:12
Um and so like this is something no one really understands how it works.
2:42:18
Um the second is you have to deal with high energy particles that are going through your electronics.
2:42:26
you don't have the, you know, earth's magnetic field shielding your electronics and there's you can have, you know, metal shielding and and things like this, but no one really understands how this is going to work and how it will affect all the circuits and electronics.
2:42:39
Um, so these two things are hard.
2:42:42
There's also like a big just time question around exactly when Starship will fly, like when cost will be passed to the, you know, launch companies.
2:42:51
So I think some of these companies may be too early.
2:42:52
Um, and look, I actually think I I'm more team Delian on the micro.
2:42:57
Like I think he has the right points that there's a lot of things that are unsolved right now on the micro side of data centers in space.
2:43:06
But I just I'm such a macro bull on space over the next 1015 years that it's hard for me to bet against any team that is just building that like concentrate talent building the expertise because I just think it's going to be such an exponential rising tide at some point in the next like 10 years.
2:43:24
I can't tell you when that will start but it'll be big.
2:43:28
on the on the SpaceX front, how uh there's been a lot of news over the last few weeks around uh direct to sell uh partnerships between like SpaceX and and other you know uh you know uh device manufacturers etc.
2:43:41
How screwed do you think uh a lot of the big telecom companies are over the next 10 years?
2:43:51
>> Look, I I don't think they're screwed.
2:43:53
I think that when you have I think that I think look I think SpaceX is gonna do unbelievably well unbelievably well and I am maximum bull on direct assault for SpaceX but I think what happens like in the kind of most wild success scenario for SpaceX SpaceX is providing like 20 30% of the world's mobile data in a decade or so >> but I think that the total mobile data consumption will be like double at that point.
2:44:24
point. So it's still like a 70% net increase for all the existing Telos because there's something this is just a like a fact of history when a product gets better people use it more >> and you know like when you have the ability when you don't have dead zones and cell service when you have 5G everywhere you know like Optimus is
2:44:45
going to come online uh you know Tesla cars are going to come online people are going to be when you can when you have really good mobile connectivity from the car you're going to be streaming instead of instead of like 1020p, you're going to be streaming 8K content from your car while it's driving you. And so I just I
2:45:01
And so I just I think it's going to be one of these things where rising tides lift all boats, but I would not underestimate how big of a deal it's going to be for SpaceX.
2:45:09
Like >> it's already an multiple hundred billion dollar companies in the category.
2:45:14
And so if it just becomes even if it even if the market structure doesn't change and there's just a new player in the oligopoly that looks very very good.
2:45:22
Um, we've asked a lot of people in the age of AI, should you learn to code?
2:45:27
That's a less interesting question to me these days.
2:45:32
I want to know, should you learn to deal?
2:45:34
Should you learn the art of the deal?
2:45:35
Because basically is is the art of the deal becoming a more important tool in the founders tool chest because we've seen so many >> so many no I I we it really feels like there are founders out there who can just work magic and marshall capital and buyers and customers and the government and the government from a different country and they get 17 people to say yes this has to happen and then all of a sudden it happens.
2:46:05
and we get the thing and it feels like it could be the beginning of of a new archetype, a new founder archetype or maybe it's an old archetype.
2:46:13
But what do you think about learning to deal?
2:46:16
>> Yeah, look, I mean f first on the learning to code, I personally think that coding is going to be like doing arithmetic a long time ago.
2:46:27
>> Um, and it's just like it won't be as interesting or valuable.
2:46:30
Humans won't be doing that much of it.
2:46:32
But I think it's very valuable to train your mind how to think.
2:46:36
And so a lot of like learning to code >> thinking is that kind of like thinking mode? >> Thinking? >> Yeah, think. Sure. Thinking mode. Thinking mode. Deal mode.
2:46:44
But look, I think I think like even more extreme than I mean even more extreme way to train your mind to think is is doing pure mathematics.
2:46:53
pure mathematics. And so like if a kid's asking what to major in today, I mean my answer would be like do pure math or physics which are the maximum ways to train your mind to think you know or learn huge social skills like just don't
2:47:08
even go to college you know if you [laughter] do be frat president >> intern over here our intern in at TVN is on a gap semester studying physics and is now hanging out here and he's just like nodding just being like I'm patting myself in the back. Sean McGuire says I
2:47:21
Sean McGuire says I did everything right.
2:47:24
>> Uh uh curious kind of last question.
2:47:24
I wish we could hang out longer but um we're back to back.
2:47:28
How >> I'm going to come to your Thunderdome soon. Yeah. >> Yeah.
2:47:32
Next one should be in person. >> Yeah. Anytime in LA. >> What are you seeing?
2:47:34
How is the government shutdown affecting uh defense tech companies that that you're seeing or or talking to? >> Oh yeah. That's a good question.
2:47:42
>> I'm going to give the brutal brutally honest version which is what I try to always do at least my own opinion.
2:47:47
Um, it's a tale of halves and have >> nots.
2:47:53
>> So, I work with a few companies that are, you know, getting absolutely reamed by it.
2:48:00
>> But I also work with a couple companies where it hasn't really affected them. Yeah.
2:48:03
And basically like if you have something that the government absolutely needs like maybe they can't send you the money right now but they're still giving you the phone call and telling you know and like you know telling you that you should expect after you know after the shutdown ends and you know we can still give you the award.
2:48:23
We just can't you know tell you the exact dollar amount because we need congressional approval on the exact dollar amount and it's it's a tale of halves and have nots.
2:48:31
Um, >> I mean it's a really good signal to be honest, at least as an investor to be like, is what I'm investing in a nice to have or a need to have. >> For sure. It's very clarifying. >> Yeah. >> Very good. >> Cool. Uh, great to catch up. >> Always fun.
2:48:48
Congrats on the new uh We need to ring the gong for Sequoia C. >> Yeah. Yeah. They they deserve this. >> Two gong hits.
2:48:54
Two gong hits for the two new funds. >> Still got it. >> There we go. >> Thank you, boys. You guys are legends. Keep crushing. Bye. >> See you soon. Thanks for coming on. >> Bye.
2:49:07
>> Let me tell you about Finn.
2:49:07
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2:49:10
Number one in performance benchmarks, number one in competitive bakeoffs, number one ranking on G2. You can go to fin. ai to get started.
2:49:16
And we have a Neil Chak Chakraarthy from Adobe in the reream waiting room.
2:49:23
Let's bring him into the TVP Ultra. Anal, great to meet you.
2:49:27
Thank you so much for taking time.
2:49:29
It's almost like you guys are in the creative industry. >> Yes. >> Yeah. Likewise.
2:49:32
Great to meet you and thanks for having me on.
2:49:35
>> Thanks for hopping on.
2:49:35
Uh I assume you're at Max.
2:49:36
Take us through the big headline news.
2:49:38
What's What are the most exciting things happening in the Adobe ecosystem these days?
2:49:44
>> Yeah, I'm coming here live from Max in LA.
2:49:46
We have over 10,000 people, everybody from individual creators >> to people in Hollywood who work with creative in the creative industry, enterprise customers, all kinds of people.
2:49:55
It's been really exciting.
2:49:57
Obviously, it's all about how we bringing uh we're bringing AI in the creative tools that everybody loves and knows so well.
2:50:03
Uh and we're really talking about how to make responsible use of AI, right?
2:50:07
You know, uh we have our own models with Firefly and we had had a ton of innovations around Firefly, which is, you know, designed to be commercially safe, but we announced a big partnership with Google around Vo and Imagine and all kinds of other third party models that are now integrated um into our tools.
2:50:24
uh Runway and Luma and many many others.
2:50:29
>> Uh and then we also announced how we can um help customers with their own custom models.
2:50:34
So we call it Firefly models, partner models, your models.
2:50:38
>> And you know if you are Disney or Home Depot or uh Newel brands, how do you have a an AI model that really protects your IP and becomes your brand brain?
2:50:46
Uh so that's really what uh what's really what's been exciting.
2:50:51
How are you thinking about the the creative journey of the customer?
2:50:56
I feel like uh there's probably people in the audience who might have uh became an Adobe customer uh by pirating a version of Photoshop in 1998 and now they pay for cloud uh every month.
2:51:12
Um, and but you know now there's even more varieties of like niche use cases where a consumer can use a point solution and then they grow and grow and grow into the ecosystem.
2:51:23
Is it more important than ever that you set up teams to capture those longtail interactions?
2:51:28
Uh just a face swap over here or just a background remover over here and then funnel everyone into the ecosystem or do you want to focus on just capturing people once they're ready to to go into the enterprise workflows?
2:51:43
>> Yeah, you know, exactly as you mentioned, we have such a a wide variety here of people who have had their journey with Adobe.
2:51:49
We had uh Brandon Bomb on stage who was exactly like what you said. Yeah.
2:51:54
He said he was 11 years old when he started using a a cracked copy. >> This is the thing. >> Yeah. [laughter] >> Exactly.
2:52:02
After Effects and he said he's a paying subscriber now. >> Of course.
2:52:05
>> And and then you know what he said was you know he said he started playing with you when he was a kid. He got hooked on it. >> Yeah.
2:52:11
>> And he showed how you can do it with Firefly.
2:52:13
I mean he posted something yesterday and you know he that a video that he created with Firefly >> and then uh you know he got some comments and said somebody said hey looks like this is going to be a plot twist here and so he did the plot twist on stage today.
2:52:27
He used Firefly and all the tools >> to just take the next episode in that story.
2:52:32
story. M >> so we got all types you know you got enterprise customers who are like hey we would love to use all these new genai tools it's got to get through our systems our regulation our compliance uh Adobe people trust Adobe so if you can make it available it becomes so much
2:52:50
easier to use all of this innovation >> uh and then we have a lot of people like you said who um have their favorite tools and they want to see all this AI in their favorite tools and then there are many many others because you know uh we think uh maybe more than half the people at max are attending for the first time. >> Wow. >> Wow.
2:53:08
>> So they just want everything on a mobile app.
2:53:11
>> They they don't have the you know desktop machine with Photoshop on it there.
2:53:15
They know every layer and all of that.
2:53:18
>> So they just want it on their uh on on their on their mobile app. And so we got all types.
2:53:24
So the creative journey ideas can strike you anywhere and we want to help you turn that into creativity.
2:53:30
What's your what's your read on how Hollywood's been navigating Gen AI?
2:53:34
We're here in LA ourselves and uh when I when we talk to people in the industry on or off air, it seems like everyone is trying to be get ahead and be and and leverage the tools to the best of their ability, but there's this pressure to not piss off the broader industry of people that that make it possible.
2:53:52
But uh what's been the read from from people that are talking at the event?
2:53:57
Uh because there's a little bit of like if you're too much at the bleeding edge and too loud, you know, you might get uh people people might come after you. >> Yeah, exactly.
2:54:08
They're threading the needle. Uh exactly.
2:54:09
They are excited about the potential.
2:54:11
They see what AI can potentially do in terms of everything from ideiation uh from helping create and make those uh uh make the movies and other content for TV and then also then getting the audience to participate.
2:54:26
you know, everybody can have you it's so easy to create variations and get uh get get the, you know, make it more like fan experience that like the sports teams are doing.
2:54:38
>> So, they they're really interested in all of that potential.
2:54:40
Uh but like you said, uh they want to make sure it's top-notch quality.
2:54:46
>> They want to make sure their IP is protected and that they're not, you know, even unwittingly stepping on somebody else's toes.
2:54:51
Um, and they want to make sure that, uh, they're doing it in a way that's monetizable and that, uh, you know, it's, uh, uh, gives them a recurring revenue stream.
2:55:00
So, exactly like you said, they're threading that needle. >> Yeah. Very cool.
2:55:04
Um, >> did you have a product request, by the way? >> I did.
2:55:09
I want you to bring back PI, uh, Photoshop Mix.
2:55:11
I was a huge user of Photoshop Mix and my favorite features got deprecated and I moved to Photoshop Express and then I got a new phone and one of the features, the one random feature that I use got deprecated again.
2:55:27
And so [laughter] now I am on the full Photoshop iOS app, the official Photoshop iOS app, and I'm learning it.
2:55:34
But uh I do feel like one of my children was left behind in the on the Titanic or something and I was left So I I will ask the product team to take a look. Have you tried Firefly?
2:55:45
Have you checked Firefly out? >> I haven't. I haven't.
2:55:47
But but I understand like this is the nature of of of building a large scaled uh you know business.
2:55:53
You need to uh move people through the different feature funnels.
2:55:57
You can't keep every otherwise it just becomes all tech debt.
2:55:59
So uh I understand why things uh go the way they do.
2:56:03
But as as a dedicated user of of the legacy app, >> why uh in as as few words as possible because we're running out of time. Yeah. >> Why?
2:56:12
What your read on on uh like specifically?
2:56:15
I think people the be the bears out there think that that AI is disruptive could be disruptive to the Adobe ecosystem.
2:56:23
Give we're a creative business. We're media company.
2:56:26
We're constantly creating media and advertisements and things like that.
2:56:30
advertisements and things like that. Our view has been that it's ob it seems more obviously to be an extending innovation uh or or people being able to generate a video an image or a video and then suddenly have that asset and be like well now I want to change it well what tool are you going to use right it it's
2:56:47
probably a tool within the Adobe ecosystem so in as few words as possible what's your view on why AI uh uh would be an extending innovation for the Adobe kind of suite of products >> yeah you know we look at it as uh the evolution of a new operating system and we are the creative AI platform that runs on new operating systems. You know
2:57:05
You know when you look at our history uh when it was desktops I mean we ran on Mac OS and Windows OS when it became cloud you know whether it was with AWS or Microsoft Azure or with uh you know with GCP and others when it became mobile whether it was iOS or Android.
2:57:22
So we have [clears throat] the history and the track record of making sure that we work very well with the emerging new operating systems and the new AI is the new operating system.
2:57:34
Now you know you have to believe uh and I think it's a simplistic view that the operating system will do everything that the apps do and yeah I mean that just seems in our view very simplistic.
2:57:44
So we think much obviously from our perspective that we're good at working with these new operating system.
2:57:51
That's what we announced with Google yesterday and you know we actually showed within chat GPT how you can work with Adobe tools like express.
2:57:58
So it's evolving of how they you know what do the operating systems do and what do the apps continue to do.
2:58:05
>> There's new layers of AI but you know that's the architecture is evolving fast but we think that you need both.
2:58:10
I don't think it's either or and that's where we think the world is going to be. >> Yeah.
2:58:15
>> Yeah. I I mean I've used so many of these little point solution uh AI tools and I've just I feel like I've seen a glimpse of where this all goes and it's like I actually do want a platform that then can sub out different models so I can get Firefly or VO or Midjourney or
2:58:32
you know hopefully you wind up building a platform that's so open that all the different features and models are there and it's just like having the lasso tool next to the rectangle tool next to the text tool and that's a very natural progression. for Adobe. In my opinion, for Adobe.
2:58:44
In my opinion, it seems very logical.
2:58:48
>> Now, we got to get you on our consumer advisory board.
2:58:49
I mean, you really summed it up really. >> Yeah.
2:58:52
I mean, I I hate that I lost my strong opinions.
2:58:56
You'll have to bring it back for you. >> Yeah.
2:58:59
But I No, no, no, no, no.
2:58:59
I I don't I don't actually think you need to.
2:59:01
I think you actually do need me to suffer a little bit to get into the proper full-fledged ecosystem that has all the tools in one place because that's where the actual value is right now.
2:59:13
Everyone knows that you can spin up a website that's a text box and it generates one asset, one image, one video, but that's not how creativity works.
2:59:23
We're not just going to oneshot a 2-hour movie. >> Exactly. Exactly.
2:59:27
No, you should really check out Firefly. I think you'll enjoy it.
2:59:31
>> Well, thank you so much for coming on the show.
2:59:32
Uh, great to chat and congratulations and have fun at Adobe Max.
2:59:37
I' I've been seeing a ton of people uh friends of mine posting that they're there. Wish I could be there.
2:59:41
Uh hopefully in a future year we'll be able to attend. It'd be great.
2:59:46
>> Thank you for having me on.
2:59:46
I appreciate >> we'll talk to you soon. Have a good one.
2:59:49
>> Uh before we bring on our next guest, let me tell you about Adio.
2:59:51
Customer relationship [clears throat] magic.
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Adio is the AI native CRM that builds, scales, and grows your company to the next level.
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2:59:59
And up next, we have Bren Putnham from Board. >> Board. >> Board. It's just board.
3:00:05
I was looking for the name and it was right in front of me. Uh so great to meet you.
3:00:09
Uh, incredible launch yesterday.
3:00:11
I think uh I love I my favorite launches to see are ideas that when you see them, they just seem so incredibly obvious and yet no one >> thought of it or or thought to take it seriously enough and and take it into a into a real product.
3:00:28
So, um, it's great to meet you.
3:00:30
Would love uh sort of introduction and quick background on yourself and then we can talk all about the business. >> Yeah.
3:00:37
So, nice to meet you as well. I'm a huge fan.
3:00:40
I'm I'm excited for the gong. I'm here for the gong. >> So, uh, yeah.
3:00:46
So, founder and CEO of Board.
3:00:49
Board is the first ever face toface gaming console that blends the best of board games and video games into an entirely new way to play.
3:00:57
What we've done is taken a 24-in touchscreen and trained it to do something that no other screen does, which is recognize not just fingers and gestures, um, but also physical game pieces.
3:01:09
So, it knows what the piece is, where it is on the board, and what it's doing.
3:01:13
So, it's an entirely new way to play together. >> Amazing.
3:01:18
uh walk through uh the kind of aha moment when you decided to build this because again um it uh it's so obvious people love board games, people love video games, why not put it together?
3:01:31
Did you when you started thinking about this was did you look throughout history at kind of was there any other attempts that stood out on on things like this?
3:01:39
Like uh walk us through that kind of early creative process. Yeah.
3:01:44
So, I always end up just building from personal frustration and pain.
3:01:46
So, I um the proud mom now of five kids.
3:01:52
I've got two kids and three steps.
3:01:52
So, uh real >> maybe I'll get my gong there.
3:01:57
Uh you know, ranging from 2 to 2 to 21.
3:01:59
So, we were just trying to figure out ways to connect.
3:02:04
And we would play board games and we'd have to play Candyland so my 2-year-old could join.
3:02:09
or we'd try to play video games and the teenagers would smoke us cuz they've clocked so many hours on modern controllers and it just felt like there had to be something that was a lot more fun and intuitive.
3:02:18
And so really the unlock was like could we use a piece like a controller?
3:02:23
So you put the spaceship down and it shoots you put the stairs down and the characters walk up it and it was just really a way personally for me to bring my family together. >> That's amazing.
3:02:33
John is back with a gong. Hit it. Hit it again.
3:02:35
Once for board, once for the five kids. second time.
3:02:40
Um, that's uh So, so how do you what's it like kind of building building the console and the games themselves at the same time?
3:02:48
And then do you plan to I'm assuming you're planning to open up kind of a platform over time, but but maybe start with the first question. >> Yeah.
3:02:59
So, you know, I've always felt like if you really care about a great experience, you kind of always end up wanting to control the full stack.
3:03:05
Um, in my last gig, I built a company called Mirror and we built custom hardware, software and content.
3:03:12
And same thing here, as you start to design the experience you want, you realize you need to control the hardware, the software, and also the games.
3:03:20
I think the hard part this time was the games.
3:03:24
So, finding the fun is is not an easy formula.
3:03:27
Uh, getting the hardware and software to all work is incredibly challenging and required of a lot of deep technical knowledge.
3:03:33
Um, but you know, you could keep making the games forever.
3:03:37
Uh, and then eventually you just decide you got to ship.
3:03:39
Um, but ultimately for us, we're building a platform and an ecosystem.
3:03:42
So, we want to build a place where people can come and build cool experiences around this shared screen using physical pieces.
3:03:48
So, it's really about building a place where other multi-billion dollar businesses can be born.
3:03:55
can be born. This is one of the greatest like second company serial entrepreneur stories because I I don't want to simplify it but it's like mirror was like a big screen on a wall and now it's a big screen on a de like that like a
3:04:08
lot of the there has to be so many uh like >> it's also it's also so many so many hardware companies just don't make it so there is no second companies because the founder gets so burnt out that they're like I'm not doing that again. >> Yeah, that's for sure. Uh but yeah, I
3:04:22
>> Yeah, that's for sure.
3:04:22
Uh but yeah, I guess I guess like how do you think about uh I I feel like part of the success with board is like there will be a specific game that ultimately drives I would imag I imagine it'll be somewhat of a power law.
3:04:36
Video games are very power law driven.
3:04:38
So it's like I'm sure you have confidence in the first game, but it's possible that it'll take a little bit or or a while to have like the hit that makes the product go totally mainstream.
3:04:49
So it's like how do you balance that uh needing like the games being like a hits business, right?
3:04:56
There's been a bunch of board games and there's one monopoly, right? >> Totally.
3:05:00
I mean, we think about it really as our job is to show off what's possible with this new technology.
3:05:03
So our job is to show the breath of the portfolio.
3:05:07
So we've got quick arcade hits to deep 3D spatial strategy games and really a lot of incredible physical digital interactions.
3:05:17
and we think that the great game is probably going to come from someone we don't know yet.
3:05:21
So really our job is to just let a thousand flowers bloom and then see what happens.
3:05:28
Um but we feel confident that with this this first set of 12 launch games, we're kind of showing what's possible with this new way of playing and we're really excited just to get people building on board.
3:05:37
Uh do you think that there are like it's exciting to see where the V2 of the technology where you can do unique games that take advantage of this hardware specifically understanding that the pieces touch the screen and they're identifiable?
3:05:50
Um but is there also some value just to being like uh like I've played Settlers of Katon on an iPad like it is a good experience just because it's a good game.
3:05:58
And so is there a world where you want to on day one take advantage of a particular app store or catalog that's already there?
3:06:06
Even if you're not taking a big cut, you're just kind of bootstrapping the experience so that people are like, "Oh, well, you know, I I didn't like that game, but it's a 24inch iPad and I was able to use, you know, the game that I liked on day one." >> Yeah.
3:06:21
I mean, this was like the big debate, right?
3:06:22
New and native or porting IPs.
3:06:24
and we made the uh less safe choice I would say to go new and native because we felt we were doing something really novel and we had a really novel technology and we needed games that that fit the tech.
3:06:35
So you know the Wii remote unlocked Wii Sports and Swipe on mobile unlocked Angry Birds and we felt like we have a similar you know a similar technology but I think there's definitely a future where characters or IP that you're familiar with come alive in a new and native way on board.
3:06:50
We've had a lot of exciting outreach from >> Yeah. meaning brands. >> Yeah.
3:06:57
So, it's been uh it's been a quite a quite a 24 hours of inbounds uh on social for us.
3:07:03
Not every day you get a MC Jagger posting about your product within the first 24 hours. So, it's been fun. That's amazing.
3:07:09
Well, I also just bought one live here on the air. You can check Shopify.
3:07:13
I love I love I love Shop Pay.
3:07:16
I'm like I'm on the website. It's for sale.
3:07:18
Uh you're shipping these already. Is that correct?
3:07:22
stores or is it uh I didn't even check.
3:07:24
So, >> yeah, we start shipping the >> Yeah, it'll arrive in 2030, Jordy. >> Okay. >> 2035.
3:07:29
Right around AGI is when you're going to get it. >> No, >> no.
3:07:33
Um, we ship uh the week of 11:10.
3:07:36
So, shipping in a week or two. >> Oh, wow.
3:07:40
>> How did you plan around supply?
3:07:40
This feels like the like this could be the holiday gift of the season if you have the supply.
3:07:47
Like, how do you plan around?
3:07:49
[laughter] How have you been planning around inventory? Yeah.
3:07:53
So, one of the the nice things about it being kind of the the second goaround is we're working with a tier one CM out of Thailand who has a lot of experience with display products and so they're really adept at being able to scale inventory quickly as we start to get demand signals, but it's definitely going to be a busy holiday for all of us. >> Yeah, it's crazy.
3:08:09
John, can we get a gong for MC Jagger?
3:08:11
Kevin, uh, one of the designers, uh, asked for it. >> Gong for MC Jagger.
3:08:16
Uh, well, congratulations to the whole team. This is super exciting.
3:08:20
I I can't wait to uh can't wait to try it.
3:08:23
We'll have to Well, I'm sure there'll be a game that we can play here uh on on air to settle disputes and I'm excited to play with uh with my family uh back home. >> I love it. >> Fantastic.
3:08:34
>> Thank you guys so much for having me. >> Awesome. We'll talk soon.
3:08:36
>> What's the domain, by the way? >> board. f fun. >> Yeah, board. f fun.
3:08:39
Available today at board. f fun.
3:08:43
>> I'm normally a dot purist, but boardf fun works. Yeah. >> Love it. >> Me, too.
3:08:48
You got to go with the fun.
3:08:51
Yeah, very >> this is such an exciting story.
3:08:52
I'm seriously so excited about this company. It's amazing.
3:08:55
Just like the perfect founder, everything.
3:08:57
I'm I'm >> I'm very excited. >> Congratulations.
3:09:02
>> Did you Did you announce last qu Did you announce uh fund raise already?
3:09:04
Did you ever announce it?
3:09:06
Is that >> We h we haven't yet.
3:09:09
So, we raised um 15 million in funding.
3:09:12
We were um lucky to have um founder uh funds we've worked with before LA box um and then some first round and then some new folks adjacent patron uh metrodora spangel uh join so uh now kicking off our series 8 now all right well >> to chat about that another gong then >> there was a very gong he heavy segment but uh uh putting on putting on a master class and uh Yeah, I can't wait to play. >> Very excited. >> Thanks, guys.
3:09:46
>> Have a great rest of your day. >> Cheers.
3:09:48
>> Um, >> Shop is just so good. >> So good.
3:09:52
>> You can just buy stuff.
3:09:55
>> Uh, our next guest is already in the reream waiting room.
3:09:56
But quickly, let me tell you about adquick. com.
3:09:58
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3:10:01
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3:10:03
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3:10:08
We have George Curtz from Crowd Strike in the Reading Room.
3:10:13
Welcome to the show, George. Great to meet you.
3:10:17
Thank you so much for taking the time to come and chat with us on this busy GTC uh part time of the year.
3:10:24
Uh would love to get an introduction on you and and just uh just a little bit of an overview of what's new in your world, what's new at GTC. >> Sure.
3:10:34
So, uh, George Kurtz, founder and CEO of CrowdStrike, um, leading provider of security solutions and, uh, I think the big announcement, uh, many big announcements at GTC, but certainly on the security side was continued partnership with Nvidia.
3:10:48
We have AI's leader and security leader coming together to provide greater protection uh, for customers.
3:10:55
And that was a big part of our announcement um, that Jensen went through and, you know, we're excited to be working with them.
3:11:01
We've been working with them for for years now and uh to see it all come together as part of GTC I think was just fantastic. >> Yeah. Take us a layer deeper.
3:11:09
You could be uh they could be a customer of yours.
3:11:13
You're securing them as a company.
3:11:16
You're you're baking it into the chips.
3:11:18
There's a wide you're buying chips from them.
3:11:19
There's so many different ways to partner with Nvidia these days. >> Yeah.
3:11:22
So, uh as you know, and I think a big part of his talk was Nvidia being the platform company. Yeah.
3:11:26
uh he sort of joked saying like hey I you know we don't even sell things to people like everything's embedded into other systems and you got to use the platform which is part of what we've done.
3:11:36
Um if you look at what they've come out with they've got something called Neotron which are [clears throat] open models that um customers can use and build their own AI agent.
3:11:47
So really this particular announcement was focused on bringing security and visibility from an AI agent perspective to the edge.
3:11:54
So we've got something called Charlotte which is our agentic technology uh which allows our customers to identify and uh understand threats and do a lot of the work of what a security analyst would do which uh many times is sort of a onetoone relationship between a threat and an analyst and now with our security AI agents we can do the work of many analysts and one analyst can control those agents.
3:12:20
So that's what Charlotte does.
3:12:21
Now, Charlotte with this announcement has the ability to actually talk to other AI agents leveraging the Neotron models and the NIM uh inference microservices.
3:12:32
So, as those agents are closer uh to where AI is created or on prem or in a data center, um you want to have very quick visibility into what's happening.
3:12:41
And in many times, customers have their own AI agents where they're not shipping maybe sensitive data to the cloud.
3:12:47
It might be a network diagram or might be other sensitive information.
3:12:49
So Charlotte can now talk to these other AI agents that are at the edge to make better decisions and they're always continuously learning.
3:12:57
So uh we're one of the premier security partners for Nvidia and that that was part of our announcement.
3:13:04
>> Uh does vibe coding scare you? >> I love vibe coding. I'm an investor. I do it myself.
3:13:11
>> It's also good for good for Crowd Strike, right?
3:13:12
It's like people are going to just make a lot of software quickly.
3:13:15
They probably need to spend more on cyber security, too. >> They they they do.
3:13:19
So, you know, the the old joke in uh many years ago was like, you know, you'd have uh people come out of university and they would just go to any number of the repositories and they would just grab their code snippet and slap it in.
3:13:31
And if something was poorly written, it would just propagate everywhere, right?
3:13:35
You'd have this big problem.
3:13:37
And now, you know, some of the coding that you get, some is very good, but you have to give it the right prompt.
3:13:42
Um is a inefficient and it looks like an intern wrote it.
3:13:44
So, um, it's gotten a lot better, you know, in the later generations, but that does become, uh, potentially problematic.
3:13:51
And given the rise of AI, the ability to actually find these software vulnerabilities has increased dramatically.
3:13:57
I mean, we're seeing AI find more and more and more vulnerabilities and sort of leading the charge on these bug bounties because they're so efficient at finding software flaws.
3:14:07
>> Crowd Strike has uh, something like 10,000 employees.
3:14:09
How do you think that how how are you thinking about human capital allocation over the next decade?
3:14:16
Is it is AI changing your philosophy about the shape of the workforce? Yeah. >> Yeah.
3:14:23
I think there's there's two pieces to it.
3:14:25
to it. One is on the security side which is specific to how do you leverage AI agents to do more work on behalf of customer and what we found is at least in my mind the more AI you have the more work you can actually get done and security is you're always up against it you're up against the clock from an
3:14:42
adversary perspective and there's just a uh just so much data to get through and so many threats that let the machine do what it's really good at let it sift through this data let it figure out what's happening and then again what happens is those security analysts become really the pilots, right? Where
3:14:56
Where they're they're piloting uh these AI agents.
3:15:00
agents. And you can think about it akin to um maybe uh you know a um a Whimo >> or you know automated taxi autonomous taxi I should say where you've got all these autonomous chauffeers but then you have sort of the pilot in the cloud if you get stuck and I've been in you know
3:15:17
these things where they've gotten stuck and they wait and you know somebody pilots it gives it a way point or what have you and that's really how trans how um security is going to be transformed where the human is not going to be out of the loop but they're going to be able to do so much more. So, it's about
3:15:29
So, it's about helping people up, not out.
3:15:31
That's the way I look at it from a security perspective.
3:15:34
Now, if I put my CEO hat on, I think most CEOs are looking at, well, how do you get efficiencies uh from AI in running a business, you know, and looking in areas um like legal, in sales, obviously in coding, like how do you do more with the people you have?
3:15:48
And I think the big thing is always like how do you flatten the hiring curve?
3:15:52
doesn't mean you're getting rid of a whole bunch of people, but if you could be more efficient because the people you have can do more, you can flatten the hiring curve, which um you know, ultimately adds leverage to to the business model.
3:16:02
So, we're always looking at how to take people and upskill them and train them up.
3:16:06
And uh that's what we've done internally and that's also what we're looking at for customers that are using security technologies like CrowdStrike. Mhm.
3:16:15
>> What's the in your view the most significant like genai related security incident to date that's public?
3:16:21
Is there one that comes to mind?
3:16:24
We were you're like I usually hear about the ones that we try to keep them out of the headline.
3:16:30
[laughter] No, but we were talking the other day the fact that that there's been this explosion of software and we could it didn't we didn't immediately have one that came to mind. >> Yeah.
3:16:39
>> That felt like >> squarely pin on Gen AI.
3:16:40
It actually feels like we've been doing pretty well on security.
3:16:44
>> Yeah, there there's actually this is sort of the scary part of where the industry is going.
3:16:48
Um there was some some new malware that was found that was basically Gen AI malware or what I would call autonomous malware.
3:16:55
So if you think about malware, you might, you know, you and your audience might be familiar with it.
3:17:00
You know, you have a program that's bad.
3:17:02
And in the old days, the MAC and semantics of the world used to have these databases that would go, okay, that's a bad file.
3:17:07
We're just not going to let it run.
3:17:09
And over the years, companies like ours, we've created this sort of math model where without even seeing it, we can tell if something's bad and we block it. That's kind of old hat.
3:17:17
But now, the new malware is basically Gen AI, meaning um if it drops on your system, >> that makesense.
3:17:25
>> Okay, it looks like like a like a script.
3:17:27
It doesn't even look like a like a compiled program.
3:17:29
And essentially, it uses prompts >> to figure out, okay, what system are you on?
3:17:35
What is unique about that system?
3:17:38
what data can I harvest and how do I learn more about the network I am on so I can pivot and I can jump to another system that we might might be more interesting.
3:17:46
So the fact that it doesn't necessarily have a command and control back to the pilot and you can do this autonomously >> that's fascin like it like the best uh security pentesters or like the best uh of the nation state actors that are you know piloting it themselves.
3:18:04
So, it's a pretty scary thought to have autonomous malware.
3:18:09
>> Did you did you start Crowd Strike so you could uh get more involved with motorsports?
3:18:15
>> Well, it's uh it's been a passion of mine, but it's been a big part of our overall uh brand.
3:18:19
You probably see us, you know, Formula One >> and uh you know, our customers like it and it's just kind of part of the ethos, but uh it's you know, it's been just part of what we've done early on.
3:18:30
Do you try to do you try to get to as many of the F1 races as you as you can or what's your do you try to do you have to limit yourself cuz I know we know we know some sponsors and and and like they got a pretty heavy travel schedule.
3:18:43
They're like we sponsored this team for the next two seasons.
3:18:47
We're going to be at every race and I'm like you might want to work on your business. But >> yeah. Yeah.
3:18:52
We we actually just uh pick the the big ones for us obviously the big US ones.
3:18:58
>> Uh and then we host customers at those.
3:19:00
uh we actually have what we call CXO roundts.
3:19:02
roundts. So we combine security and the technology of motor racing and uh it's a passion you know security is a mission for a lot of people at crowd strike and a lot of our customers I mean we can be doing lots of things but we love the fight against the bad guys and to bring
3:19:17
those people together to talk about the technology and the speed of cyber security and the risk management of cyber security there's a lot of uh analoges into motor racing it's speed it's technology it's data it's risk-taking or managing risk um and it's been a big part of uh I I think just our brand, >> it's incredible. >> Fantastic. >> Fantastic.
3:19:36
>> Uh well, we will uh we'll hope hopefully run into you at uh in Vegas for F1.
3:19:41
Looking forward, if you're going to be there, let's coordinate.
3:19:42
We'll give you uh give you a whole tour of the Mercedes paddic and the garage and uh we'll go uh we'll go have some fun. >> That'd be fantastic.
3:19:52
>> Uh well uh next time there's a massive sec public security incident in Genai, we're going to give you a ring and we'll get you back on and uh have you break it down. But, uh, thank you.
3:20:01
Thank you for coming on and, uh, congrats on all the progress and thanks for thanks for keeping us, uh, safe out there. >> You got it. >> Thanks, guys. We'll talk soon.
3:20:11
>> Great to hang, George. Have a good one. Bye.
3:20:14
>> Uh, we should have done more time with him.
3:20:16
I I love Crowd Strike because every time I I get one I get nerd sniped by Crowd Strike reports like all the time whenever there's like like when Solar Winds happen, like CrowdStrike tells the story of it and they're always gripping and uh, they do a ton of good work out there.
3:20:30
So, thank you to everyone at Strike, to all 10,000 plus employees, and thank you to Eightle. com.
3:20:35
Get a pod 5 ultra >> uh get uh 5year warranty. 309 free trial.
3:20:42
>> I I I thank you to be >> concier is available to source you any watch on the planet. Seriously, any watch.
3:20:49
I I uh ran uh offscreen for a second and caught Brian uh on the way out and he was saying like yeah I told him like yeah I've been a little less healthy the last year running the show than historically.
3:21:00
He's like yeah I've heard some of your you know eight sleep updates sleep your sleep >> then my sleep scores brutal.
3:21:09
>> Well I got a 90 last night so went back in the game. >> I I lost my phone. I don't know.
3:21:12
This is the this is an issue.
3:21:15
Uh do we have any more timeline?
3:21:18
Meta uh Meta is reporting earnings I believe uh >> uh right now uh or they already did.
3:21:27
Meta stock sinks after tax hit weighs on earnings. Um >> what? >> They're down like 9%. >> Wait, what? Wait. >> Is that good?
3:21:35
[laughter] >> Wait, who's down 9%? >> Meta. >> Meta. Why? >> Earnings. Missed earnings. >> They missed earnings. Oh no.
3:21:42
>> Microsoft sinks on beat.
3:21:45
Meta crashes 6% on EPS miss.
3:21:49
>> Is it good that Microsoft is sinking on a beat? Is it over? >> Is it over? No.
3:21:54
Uh, it's not over for me. I got a 94. How'd you do? >> I got a 90. >> You got a 90? I beat you. 7 hours 9 minutes. Let's go.
3:22:02
I'm sleeping well and that's all that matters.
3:22:05
There's also a bombshell uh guest essay in the New York Times about OpenAI.
3:22:08
One of the senior researchers who led product safety at OpenAI is taking shots at their uh at their uh messaging around erotic content.
3:22:20
They have some data around uh how many people use AI or use a chat GPT in this erotic faction uh fashion.
3:22:28
Uh that's going to be a bigger bigger story for sure.
3:22:33
This is definitely going to grow.
3:22:35
Um but [snorts] hopefully there's guard rails.
3:22:37
Hopefully there's more clear messaging on uh on the uh uh on the actual transparency reports and and the and the the the bounding the boundaries of how these apps get used.
3:22:51
I realized that uh I don't know if I've actually ageverified with OpenAI.
3:22:57
Like I don't know if I've ever actually scanned my ID.
3:22:59
And I mean like I maybe this is a bullc case for worldcoin or something but uh I feel like >> I have a moral duty to upload my ID to chatt >> because >> I want I care about I care about >> I keep it pretty PG.
3:23:19
I don't I don't want I don't want them releasing any of those adult features on on >> on your account. Yes.
3:23:25
But but I want them to be able to clearly understand what an what what an adult person is versus a versus a uh an underage person.
3:23:36
And so it's important that they have a really strong data set of adults versus people who haven't age verified so they can classify the users effectively. What do you think?
3:23:47
>> Uh I actually have uh uploaded my ID to OpenAI.
3:23:50
There's a bunch of like um >> your real ID. >> Yes.
3:23:53
Obviously, I don't have any other kinds of >> like, uh, ChachiBT operator agent mode, buy me a beer, deliver a six-pack to me.
3:24:06
>> She's [laughter] like, yes, Tyler thinking, contacting the Instacart API and buying you a six-pack.
3:24:14
>> Uh, but there are some products that you have to use the ID for, at least.
3:24:16
Um, it's like the early version.
3:24:18
So, um, really like the agent builder.
3:24:20
Uh, >> oh, agent builder.
3:24:22
You have to you have to ID verify >> at least it was in in the days following like right right when it came out your ID.
3:24:28
>> Um I I think >> I haven't heard anything about agent builder recently.
3:24:31
What's what's going on over there?
3:24:34
>> I have not used it either.
3:24:35
>> You haven't been in building agents. >> I don't know.
3:24:36
I mean it it's not like a >> We should try build We should try and build an agent that does something for TBP that buys beer.
3:24:45
>> That buys beer for interns. Yes.
3:24:47
[laughter] >> Bobby Cosmic.
3:24:50
Shout out to John for providing data to improve the system. Thank you.
3:24:54
That's what it's all about.
3:24:56
Uh no, but seriously, if you want to keep if you want to keep uh the the bad stuff out of the underage users, uh you got to know who's of age and who's underage.
3:25:06
And so you should be strongly favor.
3:25:09
>> People have said you have the mind of a of a child. >> Yeah.
3:25:13
Brian Johnson, I you know, he has uh I think his biological age is like 19.
3:25:17
Uh my I did a test on my brain the mind of a 5-year-old. >> Yeah.
3:25:23
>> A lot of dinosaur questions constantly running deep research reports on >> I love I do love slapstick comedy.
3:25:31
>> Nothing like a story of a of a leopard and a monkey falling off a boat and going splat.
3:25:38
That's the pinnacle of comedy.
3:25:41
>> Or or just being having the mind of a 5-year-old and being like why are clouds? >> Exactly.
3:25:46
and then running a deep research report. >> Yes, this is the key.
3:25:49
You mean this is the key to what are clouds and you know this is the key. Why? Uh more news.
3:25:55
Apparently Mastercard is is uh planning to acquire uh Zero Hash for nearly 2 billion.
3:26:02
Zeroash is a crypto infrastructure player.
3:26:06
They've been at it uh uh quite a long time.
3:26:09
Um and uh pretty serious move from uh from them.
3:26:12
Uh we should wait to kind of assess earnings since we can't uh listen or read any of the transcripts uh live. Exactly. Yeah.
3:26:22
Um but uh fortunately we'll be back uh tomorrow.
3:26:29
And uh John, >> in the meantime, >> find your happy place, book a wonder with inspiring views, hotel grade, dreamy beds, top tier cleaning, and 247 concier service.
3:26:36
It's a vacation home but better, folks.
3:26:38
Uh there's a bunch more stories, but we can get to them tomorrow.
3:26:42
Um, we will talk to you later.
3:26:45
Have a great, beautiful, productive evening. >> Night.
3:26:48
>> We'll see you tomorrow. >> Goodbye. >> Cheers.