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9:24
Today is Wednesday, October 1st, 2025.
9:26
We are live from the TBN Ultradome, the temple of technology, the fortune for finance, the capital of capital, >> the stable of stable coins.
9:34
We got a real stable behind you.
9:36
We have a real horse behind us. Real horse statue. >> Not a real horse.
9:41
>> Uh, can we hand to something more like a >> There we go. Look at this. Fantastic.
9:46
Uh, wonderful new addition.
9:49
Thank you to everyone that supported us.
9:51
Thank you to everyone in the chat. You made this possible.
9:52
Now, we have a horse in the in the studio.
9:55
Uh, >> wouldn't have been possible without the chat. >> The slop could never.
10:00
You have to This is craft.
10:03
>> This is an antidote to slop.
10:04
>> This is an antidote to slop. >> This is craft. >> This is craft. >> Craft.
10:06
So, if you're frustrated with all the AI slop that you're being forced to >> see Yep.
10:12
uh commission a physical monument to beauty. Yes. Power. Yes.
10:15
And uh >> get a massive statue.
10:19
>> As uh magnificent as as the horse.
10:22
Obviously, you know, those that watch the show know this show is about technology, business, and the equestrian lifestyle. >> Yep.
10:29
>> There is a We're obviously going to be talking about Sora basically all day. >> Massive. >> It's really big.
10:34
That's what you wanted though.
10:36
You asked for a big horse. You got a big horse. >> I asked Ben.
10:40
>> It's not even bigger than a real horse.
10:42
It might even be smaller than a real horse.
10:44
Feel like real >> horses. Oh, it's a bit taller. >> Yeah, I don't know.
10:47
We'll have to get a real horse in here and and and compare it next to one another.
10:50
There is going to be a a huge arms race for uh making content that definitively cannot look that cannot be made with AI, right?
11:00
There's something that's going to be, oh, when you're shooting something, let's deliberately try and stay away from the AI aesthetic, right?
11:06
Don't you think that's going to be >> and as soon as if there's one example of something you can just almost >> I don't know.
11:15
I I think it's fun to push the envelope and find stuff.
11:17
Like I've I I was playing around with both Sora and Vibes last night and I was trying to get it to generate um me and Tyler walking around an MCer type staircase with like you know Mcsher paintings where the staircases kind of go off at different angles and it kind of breaks physics and both models were falling flat on their face.
11:38
Um, if you've seen Inception, there's a scene where Christopher Nolan uses CGI and some camera trickery to kind of recreate an endless staircase in a real film.
11:50
And uh, AI would definitely struggle with that. There's a few examples.
11:55
>> For me, I use uh, the second that I realize something is AI generated, I usually just scroll by it.
11:59
If I'm seeing a startup launch video that's obviously AI, I watch like half a second and keep scrolling because today >> the in in general, if you could tell it's AI, it's usually somewhat of a loweffort >> thing and it's probably not worth watching.
12:17
Same thing with comments online.
12:18
Everybody's been reading a com, you know, response to a post or some something >> and you second I realize it's AI, I just keep scrolling. Yep.
12:26
>> Uh because it's just generally a good filter uh for quality. >> Yep.
12:30
And I'm I actually uh am worried that the day will come where I no longer can tell.
12:37
And I'm certainly it's probably happening already. >> Yeah.
12:41
>> And I just don't know it. Yep.
12:42
>> But >> yeah, but I think people continue to be able to innovate and come up with different things.
12:46
I mean, even just like this shows in three hours long is very clear that we're not AI generated because the models only go for 10 seconds.
12:54
There's a million different things uh that you can bring bring to bear.
12:57
Uh, one funny thing that I saw uh, Sora fall flat on was it it passes the liquid refraction test where you take a glass of water, you put arrows behind it, and as you fill up the water, the water in real life refracts the arrow and reverses the arrow.
13:13
And for a long time, AI video models fell down on this.
13:17
They didn't understand physics at that level. Now, Sora passes it.
13:18
The one place where I saw Sora fall flat.
13:23
Another place as opposed to Mcsher stuff was um you know those you know those balls that go the metal balls that go back and forth. You saw this Tyler?
13:30
Did you see the one that failed where it was just one ball bouncing back and forth and it didn't understand how the physics would transfer to from the left >> Newton's cradle. >> Newton's cradle. That's right.
13:40
And I noticed that uh our sponsor ramp ramp.
13:44
com time is money save both easy to use corporate cards bill payments accounting and a whole lot more all in one place.
13:49
one place. uh they launched a uh publicity stunt massive campaign from the office they got heaven from the office in there and in the video it had it's shot extremely cinematically a lot of people would probably be like oh is this AI but just they maybe they had
14:05
fornowledge of where Sora 2 would fall down but they had a real footage of Newton's cradle and it's doing the real thing and so it was just very funny that I saw this clip in that video that was the one thing that you can't do with AI and it's in there and it lets you know that it's real. Uh and so we will be of
14:20
Uh and so we will be of course uh following that campaign as it goes out. It's fun.
14:24
Uh ramps obviously uh expanding the market very aggressively going after tons of businesses uh inside and outside of Silicon Valley and uh no way no better way to do it than with uh a household name like big influencer.
14:37
This is what happened with SEO >> household name in finance.
14:41
>> Household name in finance certainly happened from the office.
14:42
>> Household name everywhere in in the US honestly.
14:44
Uh anyway, uh the uh the slop versus farming debate.
14:48
I got kind of messy with the metaphor in today's newsletter, but I was uh digging into the reactions to Sora.
14:56
And my question was, uh you know, slop is bad.
14:59
We the timeline don't want to be pigs at the trough.
15:04
>> And by the way, this this this last angle here, not AI.
15:06
This is a camera that is on a >> Are we ready to do >> a uh uh what is it like effectively RC operated? >> Oh yes. Yeah, this is real too.
15:17
So we have this uh uh animated camera now or motion I don't know slider.
15:23
Uh uh it seems like the boys are ready to give some love to Julius. Julius. ai the AI data analyst. >> Connect your data.
15:34
Ask questions in plain English and get insights in seconds.
15:40
>> They are pumped up for Julius. Let's hear it.
15:43
Everyone's going crazy in the TBTN Ultradome for Julius. AI, the AI data analyst.
15:50
>> That came out of nowhere. >> Ridiculous.
15:53
Uh anyway, um uh we don't like when tech leaders treat us like farm animals.
15:59
We the timeline, of course.
16:02
Uh, but we do love farming. I don't know.
16:04
I I was trying to m I was trying to map this because we don't like slop.
16:08
We don't like pigs at the trough.
16:10
>> Farm table, >> we like farm to table.
16:11
We think farming is lindy.
16:13
There's this whole idea of like uh get off of the internet, touch grass.
16:17
Where do you find grass on a farm? Obviously.
16:19
Um and and once you and there's something about returning to a world where we're farming, but if you're a farmer, you're filling up troughs on a daily basis.
16:29
And so like how do I how do I put these two things together?
16:32
This idea that like we don't like slop.
16:34
We don't want to be pigs, but we do want to be farmers and we do want to create slop or or is the farmer no longer noble because the because the farmer fills up the the pig's trough with slop. Is that bad?
16:47
>> Well, pig farming and farming >> two different things.
16:49
You think now it's like, oh, it's not enough just to be a regular farmer.
16:53
You got to be a farmer of like crops like corn.
16:55
When I think about when I think about a farm that is supplying a neighborhood restaurant that focuses on organic farm-totable food, I'm not thinking pork.
17:06
>> You don't think pork's going to be on the menu?
17:08
>> You don't think some some pork cutlets will be served at some point?
17:12
>> Some delicious bacon and a breakfast burrito farm to table.
17:15
>> You can go way down the the pork rabbit hole.
17:18
Uh >> there are plenty of other animals that eat a trough, eat slop essentially.
17:20
Is it just pigs that eat slop? >> I don't know.
17:24
But my question my my question >> and I would just say put differently >> I think a lot of people enjoy free range content. >> Yes indeed.
17:35
>> So >> if you want some freerange content head over to reream.
17:37
io one live stream 30 plus destinations multiream reach your audience wherever they are.
17:41
So um there are now three different AI video products that have all been received very very differently.
17:48
So uh Google Deepmind did launch with YouTube like you can generate slop videos AI videos with V3 in YouTube and YouTube scales massive and so we should be seeing a lot more of that but YouTube's focused on the creator first.
18:02
Uh Meta Super Intelligence launched Vibes in the Meta AI app.
18:07
It's a purely AI video feed based on Midjourney.
18:10
Um and OpenAI now has Sora.
18:13
And so understanding the three different strategies, who the customer is, how they think about different ways to bootstrap these new networks, all of that's very interesting to me.
18:23
Um, >> where is Meta AI on the app store right now? >> Figure it out.
18:27
Um, so YouTube has >> number 17.
18:34
>> Number 17 in productivity.
18:34
YouTube has typically beaten the slop allegations just because even though there's a lot of faceless channels out there, there is straight up AI content.
18:42
I I see some of it on YouTube where you click and it's like, oh, this new car is coming out and it's just completely fake.
18:47
Like nothing about it is real and it's just like, you know, Ferrari launched a new car and you're just like, you click on it and then it's just like this is just lies.
18:57
It's it's not it's beyond slop.
18:57
It's like it's just completely fake clickbait just optimized for >> Yeah. It's not Yeah. It's view farming. Yeah. Right.
19:04
Like I'm fine if it's ground if there's something that's grounded in reality and then it's constituted >> meant to be entertainment. >> Totally. Totally.
19:10
Um but so so those are clearly annoying but in general I think YouTube has dodged the slop allegations.
19:17
Um mostly because there are so many creators who are like crazy niche interests. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> What we say?
19:23
Well, it's so it's so I mean YouTube went from being, you know, subscriber subscriber list driven togo driven >> and, >> you know, a lot of the slop that I'm seeing is is friends of mine, people that I follow on X that are just sharing it because it's funny and novel and new, but I don't know if I'll be seeing >> quite as much >> in a week.
19:45
>> You don't see Giblies that often anymore.
19:47
And is this the Giblly moment or is this the Chat GPT moment?
19:49
opening I was certainly framing it as the chat GPT moment. Um but we'll see.
19:52
We'll we'll we'll keep following it.
19:55
Uh Instagram also feels similar.
19:58
>> They call it the chat GPT moment for video for video.
20:02
>> Um and so uh I wasn't able to come to a strong conclusion, but I just kind of in the newsletter today, you go to tbpn.
20:08
com, throw your email in there.
20:11
Everyone's looking great.
20:12
>> Reg Please, sir, just one more slop.
20:16
Uh, I had I had five questions that I think we should debate.
20:22
Uh, Tyler's back in a wonderful looking suit.
20:25
Your new suit is looking fantastic.
20:27
I like that dark green, the TB green. It really works for you. I got a brown suit.
20:31
I should have worn it today.
20:33
I think it matches that very well.
20:35
It brings us into the fall, into the winter.
20:37
We're we're we're >> First day of Q4. >> First day of Q4.
20:41
It's a massive celebration. >> Happy Q4. >> Happy Q4. Happy Q4 to Privy.
20:44
wallet infrastructure for every bank.
20:47
Privy makes it easy to build on crypto rails, securely spin up white label wallets, sign transactions, and integrate onchain infrastructure all through one simple API.
20:55
So, uh, the first first maybe we should cover Ben Thompson's take because he gave some extra context on Sora.
21:02
He says, "Some things are old, some things are new.
21:07
File iPhone dominance of anything new and interesting into the former.
21:11
The coolest new apps came first to the iPhone in the smartphone era.
21:13
And if that is still the case in the AI era, can you still say that Apple is behind?
21:19
Because the Android app for Sora is not live yet, which is again crazy considering like if code generation's good, shouldn't you just be able to say like take our iOS app and translate it into Android and push it, >> run, you were hyping up codeex. >> Yeah. Yeah.
21:33
Hit codeex a couple times, buddy. Make it happen.
21:35
Just >> clearly these things >> that should be one prompt by this point.
21:40
There are economic considerations too like the iPhone audience will monetize better than the than the Android audience most likely.
21:45
Um but uh Ben Thompson continues.
21:47
He says what is new is the reality that compelling AI video generation is very much here and it's widespread.
21:52
Over the last three weeks we have actual AI video products from Google Meta and now OpenAI.
21:56
What is so fascinating is how diverse these products are, how different they are.
22:01
Google's building features for YouTube.
22:03
Meta is building the app uh the aptly named Vibes to take you away into fantastical worlds.
22:06
Open AI is letting you make as many variations of Sam Alman as you can handle.
22:12
Uh indeed, it feels like each company is an entirely different target audience. YouTube is making tools.
22:17
Meta is making the ultimate leanback dreamlike experience.
22:21
And OpenAI is making an app that in my estimation is easiest for normal people to use.
22:26
And he outlines this idea of the 99 >> the most entertainment value. >> Which one? >> Sore.
22:36
That's not Ben Thompson's take, but that's your take.
22:38
>> That's my my per my personal take is that I think they did an incredible job creating meme basically memes, video memes.
22:45
Yes, that's what they are.
22:46
>> So, quickly to level set on the 991 rule.
22:49
This is the idea that in social media or in technology, 90% of users consume, they're the pigs.
22:55
9% of users edit and distribute. They're the farm hands. and 1% of users create.
23:01
They're the private equity firm that rolls up the farms.
23:08
>> The pork the pork >> the pork barrel politics who are redistricting farms and layering tanches of debt.
23:15
I don't know >> the pork roller.
23:18
>> Uh no uh the creators are probably the farmers.
23:20
I I I would think in this analogy and the and the editors and the distributors are the farm hands.
23:23
Um, so he says, "If you were to categorize the target market of these AI video entrance, you might say that YouTube focused on the 1% of creators.
23:31
A OpenAI is focused on the 9% of editors, distributors."
23:35
I don't know how much I agree with that.
23:37
Uh, and Meta is focused on the 90% of users who consume.
23:41
>> 1% of users are the hog farmers.
23:45
>> Let's really stretch the analogy as far as possible. >> Hog farmers.
23:48
>> This is when we're at our best.
23:52
uh the or uh the pork producers.
23:55
>> Yes, >> they're pretty. >> Yeah.
23:59
Um I mean farms do have multiple tiers of of workers on the on the farm.
24:01
It's not not that crazy of analogy.
24:03
Um so uh Ben Thompson, this is where he gives what it feels like at least to you as a contrarian take.
24:10
says, "Uh, speaking as someone who is, at least for now, more interested in consuming AI content than distributing or creating it.
24:16
I find Meta Vibes app genuinely compelling, the SOR app feels like a parlor trick, if I'm being honest, and I'm tired of my feed pretty quickly.
24:25
I'm going to refrain from passing judgment on YouTube because he mostly watches uh very specific videos there."
24:30
He says he has no idea if the evaluation is broadly applicable uh because who knows if he's like the median.
24:36
The reason that I think Sora out of the three I think Sora feels like the best strategy and that is reflected in the charts right now.
24:46
>> Uh YouTube V3 is great but not to the point where you're oneshotting entire scenes or one certainly not oneshotting videos. It can >> pretty good. >> Yeah.
25:00
But it can't create anything that's truly compelling.
25:02
Is that just because it doesn't have the the cameo feature and you can't put Sam Alman in there?
25:08
I mean, I made V3 videos that were fun.
25:10
I made videos of you driving a Ferrari through the Hollywood sign.
25:12
That was >> But I think I think if I think if it was you can only use V3 to create viral YouTube videos.
25:23
>> Maybe if you you being like very talented and understanding YouTube, well, you could do it.
25:27
It would be very hard and probably harder than just doing things normally. Yeah.
25:33
>> Um, Meta Vibes, the content is is cool, but not interesting >> at all.
25:39
I haven't I I I let you demo metab, >> right?
25:43
I I had a I wasn't super interested in it.
25:46
So, that that content in general wouldn't even do that well on Instagram, >> right? I don't know. It it it does do well.
25:56
I follow I follow one of those accounts on Instagram that takes midjourney photos and slashes them up into 1980s vibe reels of Swiss bankers in uh in Berlin in the 80s and they put a cool song over it and I'm into it.
26:07
I don't see it that often.
26:09
Most of my Instagram for you page is bodybuilding content that's 100% farmtotable.
26:13
But uh but I >> vintage Arnold I I I just found that but in general the same AI right AI right now can create wild >> scenes >> and I think Sora leaned into to where the technology is today and that it can be if it has the right sort of memeable moments it can be viral by itself.
26:39
content can be entertaining and be standalone.
26:41
You know, watching Sam Alman steal GPUs from a CVS is >> a is a a no is a a human generated idea >> excellent sort of delivery idea was able to somebody was probably had to do a few prompts to get ultimately something that was entertaining and went viral.
26:58
Not even in not even in Sora.
27:00
I'm sure it did well in Sora, but going viral on X >> and started a conversation.
27:05
Not a single thing that V3 has that I've seen from V3 or Vibes has started a conversation or really gone viral outside of the wow this model is good. >> Yeah.
27:21
So a video AI like video models today are good at generating short scenes and if you make them memeable and if you make it easy these things can go viral.
27:30
And so and from my point of view uh I think that Sora is the best product.
27:37
>> 372 likes, 20,000 views on V3 is amazing, but there are some hallucinations.
27:41
We're going to have to shoot this practically of us blasting through the Hollywood sign in a yellow Ferrari. It's not bad.
27:47
It didn't >> you have you you've you've been posting about AI daily for years >> and it's a good demo of the product.
27:56
So you're reacting to the model >> tied back into art.
28:00
>> And also you might like it if you if you showed that to a stranger they'd be like thank you for wasting you know 90 seconds of my life. >> It was 8 seconds. It was 8 seconds.
28:08
I >> But if you walked up to somebody like on on Melrose and you said look at this video you use Chat GBT. Here's the CEO.
28:16
Did you see him stealing GPUs from CVS? Yep.
28:19
>> They'd be like, "Oh, that's crazy."
28:19
You know, like more of a reaction than just >> Yeah. >> It's a good model.
28:25
>> I I just I This is weird, but I agree with Ben that that if I had to watch 10 minutes of one feed over the other, I would pick Vibes over >> Well, >> Sora >> because so chaotic and it's so >> I'm not saying I want to watch.
28:42
>> It's more uncanny valley. >> That's what it is.
28:44
It's more uncanny valley.
28:46
It it gives me more like jitters when I watch Sora videos than when if I watch a midjourney video on Metavibes.
28:52
I'm just like, okay, I'm listening to real music.
28:54
It's clearly it's trying to be illustrated.
28:57
It's not trying to be photoreal.
28:58
And then I'm like, oh, the leg was a little bit off.
29:00
It's like, well, yeah, like of course the in the steampunk cyberpunk world like the suns didn't line up perfectly.
29:06
I'm not even I'm suspending all my uh you know, my >> I'm not saying I want to go in the sora feed.
29:13
I want to go in the trough and slop.
29:16
>> But if you had to go in a trough, which one would you go in? That's the thing.
29:19
Ben's saying that >> I would say what is going to get me to what is going to get me to stop and watch a video if I see it on X or Instagram >> or anywhere else, YouTube. Right now, it's Sora. >> 100%. I agree.
29:32
>> So, I'm saying the output is better.
29:34
It's more built for the internet today.
29:36
It's not just a research project or it's genuinely creating net new content for the internet that people seem to be very entertained by. >> Yep.
29:46
So, uh, Ben Thompson continues and kind of lays out, uh, a question about how successful this will be, and we'll debate this more as I get to my questions, but he says the the the company resolutely, this is OpenAI, resolutely claims that they had no idea Chatubt would be popular.
30:00
now feels con confident declaring that they're about to repeat one of the most seinal moments in the entire history of technology.
30:08
I'm not so sure and that's about uh the open AI team saying that Sora is the chat GPT moment of video.
30:15
Uh and Ben Thompson says Sora is to Sora 2 is to be clear amazing and the app is very easy to use.
30:24
What matters in terms of creating moments that matter however is consumption and while creation is obviously a prerequisite to consumption it's not the main thing.
30:30
it's not the main thing. What made CHAGPT unique was that LLMs immediately delivered perfectly customized content for each individual user to consume based on the most basic of prompts in this uh in this the fact that text is cheap and easy was critical people create video however for others and I'm
30:49
not just I'm just not sold that AI video that the AI video that Sora app that the Sora app enables easy though it mo may be to make is that interesting to anyone other than the creator and So I you might get a laugh out of making a video for yourself, but how wide ranging is going is that going to be? And it does
31:07
And it does seem to be their cameo strategy, right?
31:10
Like it's like Tyler made a video of me bench pressing and then turning into a golden retriever and it was really only funny for me and him.
31:17
Maybe a few other people would think that's funny, but that that's not going to do well.
31:21
Maybe people will come up with stuff that really does go viral within in the app. I don't know. >> Yeah.
31:26
I mean the the question that's most important to me is I think Sora is a great tool for AI content creation.
31:31
I think it is the best tool to create AI content for the current internet which is >> algo for you video feeds.
31:43
>> It's the best product for that today.
31:43
If if you went and and >> you know imagine you give three creators it's like you get V3, you get Meta Vibes and you get Sora.
31:52
who's going to have the most views after the end of a week, right?
31:55
I would say that Sora is like massively overpowered in terms of just generating attention. >> I think you're right.
32:02
>> But scrolling the feed feels like it would make you go absolutely it is a it is it is not fun. I've made it so far.
32:11
I've opened the I I I uh took your feedback on not actually using the the Meta Vibes app, just going off of the Vibes and your your experience with it.
32:25
>> I've opened sore a few times and uh I've made it about like three >> swipes >> swipes, >> three >> three chugs of the chalk, >> three three spoonfuls >> and gotten to the point where it just feels really bad for you. >> It feels crazy.
32:40
The editing too, like it like when even just like the cuts from one scene to another really like out of place and jarring.
32:48
It it makes my skin crawl like a lot of the videos are not good and like just like a it feels weird and bad like uh I don't know it'll stay that way >> if you >> it makes me Yeah, that that's the question.
33:01
Will >> AI video always >> send a signal? Yeah.
33:06
>> Almost a a a a silent signal that uh you are unsafe as a human.
33:12
That's what it feels like today. >> Yeah.
33:16
>> Uh or can can can they cross the >> uncanny valley? Yeah.
33:19
Uncanny valley getting out of that.
33:21
And then also just what happens when you're like like if you if I talk to chat GPT as like a person and I try and treat it like a person, it does give me the same reaction where I'm like this is weird.
33:36
Why is it glazing me or whatever?
33:36
It's like it's sick ofic and whatnot.
33:38
But when I use Chet for knowledge retrieval, I'm very happy and I'm like give me the facts, give me the data on this company or whatever.
33:46
And I could imagine a world where there's some sort of video that's generated automatically that I feel is much more tactical.
33:52
It's not trying to fool me.
33:54
It's not it it is upfront about what it is and that is more satisfying. I don't know.
34:00
Anyway, uh >> yeah, I mean >> makes total sense from a business model stamp, you know, just like a business strategy standpoint to create this, right?
34:09
They're going to be able to I imagine if they can even get if they could get a million people using this swiping creating etc consistently that will give them that will be very helpful in making the model better and better and better and better and better and it'll make the app better and it'll probably get more users.
34:26
>> The question I was thinking about is >> uh does this even if they even if they create a Snapchat size business >> it's sort of a rounding error on their market cap. Right. >> Sure. Snapchat.
34:39
Uh, how many You should know this.
34:42
Uh, Tyler, how many how many user How many DAUs does Snapchat have?
34:50
>> Let me think about that.
34:52
Clearly churning not not being the you churn from clearly allegations. Um, >> uh, 63 million. >> It's a fair amount. I I don't know.
35:02
Um well the the the first question I had that I wanted to sort of debate is like how did OpenAI do this?
35:09
Uh I ended the last uh newsletter asking that question.
35:12
Uh for the past month or two there's been this vibe that uh Google DM had a material moat around video generation because they had control over YouTube.
35:23
Uh MSL, Meta Super Intelligence, uh they have access to all of Facebook and Instagram video.
35:30
And a lot of people cross-post all sorts of YouTube videos to Instagram and uh and and Facebook. What you got for us?
35:39
>> I just want to fact check what I said. That's totally wrong. It's 460 million. >> 460 million.
35:42
Jordy, that's a lot of users.
35:46
>> That's a lot of users. Yeah. Da 460.
35:49
That must be international.
35:49
Yeah, must be everywhere. Uh wow.
35:51
Uh well um uh what's interesting is that OpenAI didn't have a clear dance partner from which to source literally YouTube has billions of hours of video. That's so much data.
36:05
And so the OpenAI clearly found a creative solution.
36:08
One of those things that was reported was that uh if you had copyrighted content, you had to tell OpenAI, I want to opt out, pull me out of the training set.
36:17
Otherwise, they would train on it.
36:19
And we're and we're going to react to some Sora videos that are very clearly like Mario Mario intellectual property.
36:24
And so they figured out some workaround where they could train on and basically that's owned by other people.
36:33
>> Monday it came out that they they met me they they let um uh they let various IP holders know you have 24 hours to opt out.
36:43
Y >> and clearly a lot of them I guess didn't react quickly enough.
36:47
And I and I actually I got I got hit with one of these.
36:51
I I found a a I found a reference that I couldn't it said content violation.
36:58
So I of course was prompting a golden retriever with a man body wearing a suit doing a podcast because I'd seen this on Meta Vibes and I was like let me bring this over to and see what see what Sor can do with it.
37:09
So you can imagine a midjourney with a with a man in a suit but with a dog head, golden retriever head on a podcast.
37:16
But the song that was playing in the meta vibes reel was one of my favorite songs, Dumbest Girl Alive by 100 Gex.
37:23
And uh and I and so in my prompt to Sora I said golden retriever with man body wearing a suit doing a podcast dumbest girl alive by 100 gaks playing song playing over the video because I wanted to know could it put the correct song over there like I can do in metavibes is it truly comparable video generation and it hit me with a hey we can't do that this is a content violation. What do you think?
37:50
>> Uh so so I actually saw another version of this where it was um sweater weather. Yes.
37:54
And that was like it the the lyrics were wrong, but you could very clearly tell that like this it was the same song was the exact same.
38:01
>> So what I imagine is that there's there are certain deals with certain record labels.
38:04
Some record labels, some IP owners, some IP aggregators have said, opt me out entirely.
38:08
And then others have said, "Hey, just pay me if you monetize my work."
38:13
Like what happens on TikTok, like what happens on YouTube.
38:17
Others might say, "Don't put me in at all."
38:18
Others might say, "Hey, I didn't get a chance. I didn't get the memo. Just train on me. Do whatever. Just go wild.
38:23
profit off of it entirely. You get 100%.
38:25
Uh and then and then I imagine that there's a second field uh like second filter that's happening on top of all the prompts and all the content to say is this acceptable based on content policies. Is this explicit? Is this adult content? Ban that if so.
38:38
And then also is this infringing on IP that we don't want to infringe on? Uh let's pull that down.
38:45
And so I don't exactly know exactly. >> Yeah.
38:47
One thing that OpenAI broadly is world class at is style transfer.
38:50
This is why the Studio Gibli moment happened.
38:56
They just >> it was perfect >> very very consistently, right?
39:00
And we saw this again yesterday with people doing their own versions of South Park, right?
39:05
Like >> South Park is oneshotted.
39:08
>> It looks You could convince me Rick and >> Morty if if the if the dialogue wasn't too crazy, you could convince me that that was a real scene.
39:15
>> Especially on the video fidelity, it looks fantastic.
39:17
Uh there are others that we're going to react to today.
39:20
uh that clearly didn't get opted out of the of the training set and so they're in there and who knows how that develops but this is the story of all social media like YouTube was was you know not really on top of copyright holders as they grew that business when they got acquired by Google.
39:40
acquired by Google. Google had a massive settlement and I believe paid almost a billion dollars like maybe more than the ac actual acquisition price to settle those lawsuits and get in good with the >> we need a prediction market on how big the ultimate settlement for the class
39:57
action >> there might be there might be a onetime settlement there might just be a revshare agreement I mean that's what happens on YouTube today is that if you go and steal my content and you upload this and you start getting AdSense revenue Google will just route that to me. If you steal some of this video, you
40:12
If you steal some of this video, you you take a TBPN clip, you put it up there, and and if it starts getting views and starts generating ads, it'll be automatically claimed and come over.
40:22
I will also have the opportunity to take it down, but by default, I'll just get the revenue share over here and and there's a whole, you know, niche business of of shuffling around these uh these payments.
40:32
And you can imagine the same thing.
40:34
I mean, the same thing happened with Tik Tok where Tik Tok was abusing that 15-second preview in the Apple uh music preview.
40:39
Do you remember this, Jordy? >> I do.
40:45
>> So, yeah, like in Apple Music in the iTunes app, you could preview 15 seconds of any song because they were like, well, you pay for pay a dollar for the full song.
40:55
>> Credit to Bite Dance for that. It was a genius hack.
40:58
>> I I don't know if it was credit to bite dance.
40:59
I think it was the I think it was musically the company before. >> Okay. Same thing.
41:02
eventually the same thing. Yes.
41:04
Um but >> uh that was something where it was very unclear how that would pencil out and ultimately the record labels got in a good spot with Tik Tok I think and they're happy with the promotion and rev shares that they get and and uh it doesn't feel like there's active lawsuits.
41:22
So there's something going on here where uh either open is moving fast and breaking things and will pay a big settlement or they're already have contracts in place and will be sharing revenues over time with how much likeness goes.
41:36
You can already see this with the cameos where if you upload your cameo and then someone uses your cameo to generate a ton of views, they go viral with it.
41:46
There's a bunch of ads associated with that.
41:48
It would be pretty easy to flow.
41:50
Okay, this this video generated $10,000 of ad value.
41:54
We're going to YouTube, you get 5,000 of that. Basically, half.
41:59
It's like 45% or something, 55%.
42:01
So, you take half of that, put that into the creator payout, and then from the from the from the uh >> Thanks, Nick.
42:12
>> From the 50% um uh rev share, you could also slice it up even more.
42:15
So imagine if you upload a YouTube >> and this is something that we were talking about earlier off the air.
42:21
How does how does open like right now Sora is a great >> AI uh video creation tool. >> Yep. >> That's undeniable.
42:34
If they can build a network, they'll have to create durable incentives for people to build audiences, invest in making audiences on Sora and not just creating the content, taking it to other apps where they already have a big audience, right?
42:46
The incentive now is to make it on Sora.
42:50
>> Didn't matter that didn't matter on on YouTube, right? Or on Instagram.
42:51
Like Instagram was a photo filtering app that bootstrapped a social network on the back of it. >> Sure.
42:58
I'm not saying it's a bad strategy.
42:59
I'm just saying they have to create an economic incentive over time like on on >> like sure it's great that there's you need supply before you can have demand right >> um but I think that what Tik Tok did well what YouTube did well what all these platforms did is they they uh ultimately became a place where creators could get attention they could get uh money right it to needs to drive like user minutes in the app watching. >> I agree with that.
43:32
I think it's maybe >> but but the last what I was going to Yeah.
43:39
>> What I was going to say is if if people if IP holders like if if people can create John Kugan content and get a rev share or something and then you get a split. >> Yep.
43:49
>> That can create an economic engine that will just drive more activity. >> Yeah.
43:52
Right now, if you look at faceless accounts on other platforms, they historically are very, very difficult to monetize.
43:59
So, if you have a meme account on Instagram, Y, >> good luck making money on that.
44:03
They they are you can have a million followers and it's and it's really tough to get much value out of it at all. >> Totally.
44:11
>> And same thing for totally faceless uh non-personalitydriven YouTube channels, right?
44:16
Same thing with uh ex accounts that just share breaking, right?
44:21
and and they're they're pretty much worthless.
44:24
>> Um, >> so >> yeah, I think act one uh bootstrap the network on the back of a creative tool.
44:31
You go there to create a video that you might share elsewhere, but it's shared by default.
44:35
So there's liquidity in the system and there's content there for those who do want to scroll it.
44:38
And then >> the challenge right now >> after that, >> the challenge right now is I go on the app, I hate it. >> Mhm. >> I want to leave.
44:47
Maybe I go on later today to try to create a video and I stick around for a little bit.
44:54
Maybe the content gets better and better over time, >> but they got to make it so that it's not um disgusting to look at.
45:03
>> Um and can't be understated.
45:03
The the timeline absolutely the timeline absolutely hates it.
45:08
They could not hate it more.
45:10
I think people, this is a this is >> kind of the first time that I feel like people are really impressed with the quality of the outputs from a model. >> But hate it.
45:23
>> With Studio Giblly, it was like, okay, this is really impressive.
45:25
You can oneshot this incredible style transfer. Yep. It's magical.
45:28
You look at it, it sparked joy.
45:30
Y >> some people are getting that a little bit, but at the same time, >> it's it's rough, right?
45:35
Uh Andrew Mccalip said >> uh he was quoting uh William uh Fetis who's coming on later yesterday.
45:44
He uh William announced periodic labs.
45:47
Uh their goal is to create an AI scientist.
45:51
Williams coming on the show later today.
45:53
We're excited about that.
45:54
>> But Andrew said, "I'm embarrassed for the existing AI players.
45:56
Imagine sitting on compute empires yet not operating a Bell Lab style effort to discover new physics or materials.
46:02
This is infinitely more valuable to humanity than another video slot machine. Uh slot machine. Slot machine.
46:11
Um and of course Sam Alman uh already responded uh to some of the uh various frustrations that people had.
46:21
Let me let me try to pull this up.
46:21
Um >> yeah, it said so uh this came from runner Tushar said Sam Alman two weeks ago we need 7 trillion and 10 gigawatts to cure cancer.
46:31
I remember I was saying >> Sam actually said we we have to cure cancer and >> no he was basically saying there's a world in the future where we might have to choose between free education >> for everyone >> yes >> and curing cancer and basically implying like you know if give me a trillion dollars or you're going to have we're going to have to make this call don't make me make the call.
46:54
>> Turns out there's a third demand.
46:57
There's a third demand right?
46:57
So you might have to um you know he might be in a position where he has to uh you know choose between the infinite slot machine and uh you know free education curing cancer.
47:09
He's making the argument.
47:09
He he responded this and said I get the vibe here but we do mostly need the capital for build AI.
47:18
>> There's a typo but you know >> this is good. This is good.
47:19
He put a typo in here intentionally to show that he wrote it himself.
47:23
He said, "We do mostly need the capital for build AI that can do science."
47:27
And for >> building AI that can do science and >> and for sure we are focused on AGI with almost all of our research effort.
47:34
Um, incredible that they were able to create a tool this this impressive with so little of their research effort.
47:42
Uh, it is also nice to show people cool new tech products along the way, make them smile, and hopefully make some money given all the compute need.
47:49
When we launched chatbt, there was a lot of who needs this and where is AGI.
47:53
Reality is nuanced when it comes to optimal trajectories for companies. Totally agree there.
48:00
Um and uh yeah, a lot of people were speculating, did Meta rush the Vibes app to try to be first to market? >> Yep.
48:09
>> Um and it'll be interesting to see how the meta is down 1. 8% today.
48:18
hard to read too much into it.
48:18
Um I don't I don't uh there's number of other factors including that uh people now believe Zuck will spend all of their free cash flow on capex.
48:29
So uh some some various factors here but um but yeah certainly impressive that that Sora was able to go number one so quickly.
48:39
>> Well over in the code generation world cognition has announced that they rewrote Devon for Claude 4. 5.
48:43
There's an interesting article we can break down in a minute, but uh you can check out Cognition.
48:51
They're the makers of Devon.
48:53
Devon is the AI software engineer.
48:53
Crush your backlog with your personal AI engineering team.
48:57
Um Donald Boat uh is uh is putting a lot of stuff on the timeline.
49:05
You already quote you already mentioned this, but he said, "Guys, it may seem like their overt plan is to turn your children and grandparents into drool slurping morons for 551% year-over-year subscription growth, but they actually do need to make 5 million videos of an elephant walking into a McDonald McDonald's to cure cancer."
49:22
The funniest take is that like maybe this is critical path.
49:29
Tyler was talking about this a little bit where he was saying like the the AI video might be good for robotics training data.
49:36
>> I just don't know if OpenAI Open AI has the time to cure cancer.
49:38
They got a lot of they they're they got a lot of stuff going on right now. >> Yeah.
49:44
Uh what do you uh what what are you sucked into right now, Tyler?
49:48
Are you >> I asked I made a new video and um it's not posting.
49:52
Yeah, there's I think there's there must be too many GPUs are on fire.
49:55
Yeah, GPU is probably >> I texted I texted uh Tyler, can you make a Sora of Sam Alman as a pig farmer at a trough putting slop in it?
50:04
>> You don't even You don't even need to make that. I've seen that on there. >> Really?
50:07
>> Oh, I've seen that like a dozen times.
50:08
>> But I wanted him to say oink oink piggies.
50:10
>> I think somebody said that I think somebody did that.
50:13
>> There's no audio though cuz I I had to screen record it cuz I can't post it. >> Weird. Yeah. Okay.
50:17
They must be censoring it. probably.
50:18
Well, that thing with the uh with the collabs, what what's it called when you scan your face? >> Cameo.
50:25
>> Cameos, the cameos, you can put a prompt in there and say, "Never depict me as a pig farmer."
50:30
Or, "Always depict me with a gold chain."
50:33
And it will just do that.
50:35
>> But I could jailbreak it by saying depict I want, you know, >> I got to I got to do this. >> Swine.
50:39
Swine herd is another is a historical term for someone who herds or tends to pigs. >> It's going to know. It's going to know.
50:47
I need to get in my in my cameo and say, "Always depict me as a mass monster." For sure. That needs to happen.
50:51
Uh >> uh, anybody can use my likeness as long as I'm a gighat >> for sure.
50:57
Uh, Donald Boat says, "Would it be terribly surprising if I told you that the geniuses behind their latest advertisement campaign are the same minds behind the seminal and profound visual television experience euphoria?" Listen to me now.
51:09
Never never take these computed people at face value as they as soon as they build a machine of overwhelming might they are going to send it against you and everyone you love to vote is black >> 6,000 likes on that. Wow. Yeah.
51:22
And he says, "Attention, you are out of reply tokens for this month.
51:26
To continue replying to laserboat 999, please visit donaldboat.
51:30
com link in bio and purchase either a yearly or monthly subscription.
51:34
Failure to acquies to these demands will result in an authoritative block in 10 prompt minutes." Okay.
51:38
I guess it's I guess let's pull up the video Tyler made. >> Yeah, let's see it. It actually did.
51:43
Uh, it actually did generate. >> It generated. I just can't post it. And there's no audio. Yeah. >> Okay.
51:51
>> But in it, he says, "Oink, oink piggies."
51:54
>> This is incredibly photoreal.
51:58
>> There there is another video in the timeline that's the same thesis for sure. Um, >> good stuff.
52:04
>> Well, people are having fun with it.
52:04
Uh, Santiago says, "Sora 2 is wild.
52:06
I asked it to generate the greatest hype video of all time and it made me this and it's of course the handcrafted Founders Fund uh LP intro, the Pete Oxenham version with uh Alex Jones over it.
52:18
We can play a little bit of this. It's just a classic. It's great.
52:26
>> Instead of looking up to Thomas Jefferson the whole thing, it's kind of like putting pineapple on a pizza.
52:33
>> You and you watch that every morning when you wake up. >> Every morning. Yes. Every morning.
52:35
Um, >> you throw on your MetaQuest and just fully experience it. >> No.
52:41
>> Um, Wilmanitis says, "If you genuinely believed you were two to four years away from AGI, is Sora really the thing you'd release?"
52:51
>> Brandon says, "Jacob says, "Sadly, yes.
52:53
Man was given the whole garden and we chose to we chose to just indulge in the apple." >> Interesting.
52:58
Brandon Jacobe, one of the greatest designers in history. True.
53:00
Of course, his tool of choice is Figma.
53:05
Think bigger, build faster.
53:05
Figma helps design and development teams build great products together.
53:10
>> I've spent many late evenings in Figma with Brandon Cook.
53:14
Some of some of the highlights of my career.
53:18
>> Okay, we got a timeline in turmoil.
53:23
>> Andrew Wilkinson, the tiny man himself says, "I think OpenAI just killed Tik Tok.
53:27
I'm already laughing my head off and hooked on my Sora feed."
53:32
And now the number one barrier to posting, the ability to sing, dance, perform, edit, is gone. Just a 100% imagination. RIP to theater kids.
53:43
Hunter Weiss says, "No shot."
53:43
Uh, and Theo uh says, "I can't stop thinking about how bad this T was and gets a thousand likes on it." Almost ratios. Doesn't quite. Uh, what do you think?
53:53
Is this a material threat to Tik Tok?
53:58
>> Is is Tik Tok now over at 14 billion?
53:58
A minute ago you were saying, "Oh, 14 billion's too low for Tik Tok."
54:03
Maybe maybe Tik Tok's a $200 million company now.
54:08
Maybe, maybe they just killed it.
54:11
>> Well, I think it I mean, we got to talk about Tik Tok again because something I I wasn't even thinking about.
54:16
I feel silly now is that they're probably just going to take Tik Tok public and it will immediately trade up.
54:23
Tik Tok is not going to trade if Tik Tok US is public today. >> Yes.
54:31
does not trade anywhere near 14 billion.
54:34
>> Where do you think it trades?
54:36
>> I think it I mean so they so they do they do around 15 they're at roughly a $15 billion run rate for revenue if you assume they're going to be around for a long time >> and can get quite profitable if they stop doing this Tik Tok shop mumbo jumbo. >> Yep.
54:52
>> That feels like it could trade at 10x revenue. >> Yep.
54:54
Um I that's where it was trading in the private market beforehand.
54:58
Uh although that was not just the US business broken out but but most people were expecting this deal to land at like 5060.
55:05
>> Bite dance always was valued far less than >> yes >> the metas of the world.
55:11
>> So the new entity is um is I think sharing 50% um re uh profits with the Chinese entity.
55:19
There's some there's some flowback of cash flow. So you can't.
55:21
So >> the public markets don't care about cash flow, John. >> Maybe.
55:27
But you know what is interesting?
55:29
So Sam Alman is building Sora.
55:29
He needs an endless trove of training data.
55:32
Larry Ellison just bought Tik Tok.
55:36
Larry Ellison runs Oracle, which has a massive deal.
55:41
>> We need We need some red.
55:41
Get the red string ready, Tyler.
55:45
>> But but but Oracle has a deal with OpenAI for massive data centers.
55:47
How are you going to justify burning all those GPUs?
55:52
You need to, you know, valuable services on top of them.
55:54
There's a world where there's a Tik Tok open AAI data deal.
55:58
Allah the Reddit deal that happened that kind of empowered chat GPT, right?
56:02
Like what do you think, Tyler?
56:05
>> I think it's also like not that insane to just imagine that in one to two years when the tech kind of like trickles down, you just see Tik Tok release their own version that's just trained on their own feed.
56:12
own feed. Yeah, maybe that's fairly I mean at 14 billion also like it's an acquisition target for OpenAI >> like they if they're at 500 or something right now uh and they're buying love from in the billions why not pick up Tik Tok and then have um a huge audience that to bootstrap a new network with tons of training >> why not buy Snap too >> there is an argument for >> Tik Tok
56:37
>> just aggregate them all probably I mean they're private so it's got to be easier to get deals across the line but you know that uh there's going to be some lawsuits and there's going to be some people fighting that in the antitrust world, but it's hard to it's hard to justify if if your two biggest Foundation Lab competitors are MSL and Google DeepMind and they have >> YouTube Shorts and Instagram Reels. It's
56:57
It's not that crazy to say, hey, you know, I'm Sam Alman.
57:01
I run the another lab and I want a play in vertical video. Give me this. Um I don't know.
57:06
I don't think OpenAI just killed Tik Tok.
57:09
I think uh open >> I think I disagree with this uh with this Andrew Wilkinson take.
57:16
>> Yeah, I I mean he he obviously structured this post to to rage bait so we shouldn't shouldn't read too much into it.
57:23
Yes, >> in general I mean I I I think >> and the whole the whole just another reason why it's overly dramatic is that >> um you know >> social networks while scale is critical are not you know Tik Tok didn't kill Snapchat Instagram stories didn't kill >> Snapchat right these are >> this was uh like the one hard post is >> uh there was some reporting that uh chat GPT is referencing Reddit less.
57:56
>> Yes, >> it's probably because Reddit is just becoming entirely chat GBT >> maybe >> generated.
58:01
Um they're down 11% today on that uh study.
58:07
>> Well, you got to get on profound.
58:07
Get your brand mentioned in chat GPT.
58:09
Reach millions of consumers who are using AI to discover products and brands. Go to profound.
58:14
Um the yeah my definitive take on the Sora thing was uh was people vastly overestimate the amount of brain rot that will happen in a year and underestimate the amount of brain rot that will happen in a decade.
58:26
I think that it's good to have these conversations about the slop farm and avoiding brain rot and and searching out lindy formats for content and not wasting all your time consuming uh you know sugar and candy essentially.
58:41
But I do think uh yeah, some people are are are debating me in the chat.
58:47
But um but I do think that uh I would be very surprised if if the >> No, I think they're talking about they're talking about Andrew Wilson. >> Oh, Andrew Wilkinson. Okay.
58:54
Well, you're free to disagree with me, too. I don't care.
58:58
Um but uh >> healthy debate.
59:00
the uh but the um uh the the the idea that the Sora app I I think you this was your point was that the Sora app will will will not be like a major major consumption vehicle for content in the very near term right that it could grow and it could act big >> remember chat GBT has an insane amount of users they can continue to push users to Sora now they're not having to acquire >> them all organically through you know people sharing content, etc.
59:33
>> Um, and so, and we saw this with Threads where Threads had an initial pop, fell off dramatically, and now has climbed and reportedly has more, you know, weekly activives than X now.
59:43
So, >> and the only and the only flywheel there is that they surfaced some threads on Instagram >> and then you just click one button, >> you can only see the first like 10 words. Yep.
59:54
You're like, I want to know what this >> and and it just brings you over and they just do a little bit of that every day with a billion plus users.
1:00:00
And when you have a massive massive user base, you can just grow it, grow it, grow it very very slowly. >> Yeah.
1:00:06
A over at Notion says, "Why do we keep dedicating our brightest minds billions of dollars and the most powerful GPUs on Earth to build yet another app that optimizes for attention decay?
1:00:15
I was hoping Chad GPT seemed to reclaim time from Tik Tok and I don't have um he says reply >> reclaim time from Tik Tok and Instagram.
1:00:26
It felt useful even nourishing but now we see disposable video same engagement treadill and uh path to ads.
1:00:31
If even our nonprofits can't resist this gravity what does that say about it?
1:00:36
Of course was released by the for-profit arm of the nonprofit. >> Yeah.
1:00:42
Uh, signal has some push back on that.
1:00:45
He says unfortunately ads fund research.
1:00:47
Google ads funded deep mind.
1:00:50
>> I would say fortunately former >> fortunately. Yeah.
1:00:52
Meta ads billions poured into ARVR.
1:00:54
Open AI needs massive cash flow to bankroll AGI.
1:00:56
The treadmill sucks, but it's also the only mechanism society has ever found to subsidize frontier science at scale.
1:01:03
I say this as someone who despises ads.
1:01:05
Uh, Eric Suffort, uh, fantastic analyst, mobile dev memo. You should go subscribe.
1:01:11
Says digital advertising is the most positive sum economically expansionary technology summoned by humanity.
1:01:18
No other technology has created more consumer surplus or stimulated more longtail economic activity.
1:01:24
Digital advertising provides consumers with free access to products that would otherwise be out of reach to all but the richest segment of society.
1:01:32
The existence of the internet itself is dependent on digital advertising.
1:01:36
And absent that commercial engine, it would cease to exist as a freely accessible commodity and would instead be a luxury good reserved for moguls and despots.
1:01:44
I say this as someone who loves ads. Let's go.
1:01:47
Thank you, Eric Seufort, for saying the hard part that no one else had the bravery to say. You're on our side.
1:01:56
And we should have Eric on the show.
1:01:58
He is a fantastic interview, fantastic analyst.
1:02:00
Uh have not spent enough time uh reaching out to him to get him on the show.
1:02:05
Anyway, Peter, speaking of ads, Vanta automate compliance, manage risk, proof trust continuously.
1:02:10
Vantage trust management platform takes the manual work out of your security and compliance process.
1:02:14
You >> think it might time? It probably is. >> Just do it.
1:02:17
Anyway, >> Peter Gost says, "What are the chances that Meta found out about OpenAI's AI video social app plans, got a partnership with Midjourney Blackforce Labs, and rushed out a similar app just before OpenAI did?"
1:02:29
Nathan says that's what happened.
1:02:31
Uh um >> the the Vibes app always felt rushed. It felt >> It felt ton.
1:02:42
>> I mean, if you go to midjourney.
1:02:42
com right now, I I think that's their domain.
1:02:46
If you just go to the midjourney website and you don't log in and you scroll, like it is just metavibes.
1:02:49
Like it is the same thing.
1:02:51
It's like midjourney images with black florest labs video animation on top of it.
1:02:55
like 8second clips just extending one frame and it's the exact same thing without music on top.
1:03:01
And so uh I I I would love to be able to see inside what the Vibes like project team was because it does feel like it was just a couple developers really really fast like just a few features in there.
1:03:15
Tyler, you have any other context on even like the the UI if you're just looking at the UI of Vibes compared to Sora.
1:03:21
Sora is like it's so much better.
1:03:24
Like just like the buttons like just look nicer.
1:03:26
Like it feels bad to use >> vibes. Yeah.
1:03:29
Uh there's Sora has they actually have a few unique UI features.
1:03:34
I mean the cameo thing is something that we hadn't seen elsewhere. Makes a lot of sense.
1:03:38
We knew that uh like fine-tuning on a particular person was possible and we've seen that with that uh with those magic avatars.
1:03:47
But have you noticed that if you double tap on a on a Sora video, it will automatically it'll show like a little like explosion of like confetti, but then it picks an emoji that it thinks relates to the underlying content and shows that emoji.
1:04:02
So if you're on uh a video about dogs and you double tap, it will show you a dog emoji or footprints emoji.
1:04:09
And they do a really good job of kind of like mapping the the videos to emojis.
1:04:15
And that's just like a unique UI experience that I've never seen.
1:04:17
Similar to when the Chat GPT app came out and there was uh you remember when when it was typing it would like kind of thump in your hand.
1:04:24
Do you remember that in the app?
1:04:26
>> It kind of stop >> like the vi it would like vibrate a little.
1:04:28
>> It would vibrate a little bit as the tokens were streaming in and it was just like okay someone over there at OpenAI on the iOS team is doing novel things and that's exciting to me. >> Yeah.
1:04:38
But I think the emojis are actually good because like sometimes I mean the videos are like nine seconds long.
1:04:42
I'm not going to sit through nine full seconds.
1:04:43
I want to see what the video is about right when I go to it.
1:04:47
So, I immediately get the emoji and I can see what the video is about and then I can scroll faster.
1:04:50
>> Yeah, I can I'm consuming more.
1:04:52
>> I think that's the big I think that's the big criticism.
1:04:53
The videos are just too long on the on Sora.
1:04:55
Someone should make a Sora competitor that's just like half a second every video.
1:05:03
>> Like genuinely, I think people would like use it more if the videos if they just basically sped up every video like 1. 5x. >> Really? I think people would.
1:05:11
>> You want to watch the sore app on 2x? That's so deranged.
1:05:15
Oh, I hope we don't lose you, Tyler.
1:05:17
It feels like one of these days we're going to give you an intern challenge that just takes you off the deep end.
1:05:22
And >> to his credit, he's got to be ready for questions for three hours a day >> randomly.
1:05:28
>> Randomly, so doesn't have the same time to to slop it up as others.
1:05:31
Let's pull up this post from Joe Weisenthal in the timeline.
1:05:35
Uh he's sharing the video of did we play this already of Sam Alman stealing GPUs in a CVS or looks kind of like a target.
1:05:45
>> This is from Gabriel who works at OpenAI.
1:05:47
He was having fun with >> I think the research lead on Sora. >> Yeah.
1:05:51
He says, "I have the most likely to now." Oh, he was. Wow.
1:05:54
Uh I will be enjoying this short moment while at last CCTV footage of Sam Alman stealing GPUs as at a target for sore inference. Let's play the video. We don't have it. Okay.
1:06:07
Uh well, we do have an ad for graphite. dev.
1:06:09
Code review for the age of AI.
1:06:11
Graphite helps teams on GitHub ship higher quality software faster.
1:06:16
Uh we will go back to the timeline.
1:06:19
>> So Joe says anyone who sees this video can instantly grasp the at least potential for malicious use.
1:06:24
And yet nobody with any power either in the public or at the corporate level has anything to say, let alone do to address it or even acknowledge it.
1:06:31
This isn't even a criticism per se.
1:06:33
the cap may be completely out of the bag and it may be reality that there's literally nothing that can be done particularly if open source models are only marginally behind.
1:06:42
My uh the the thing that I don't think people are ready for is for a you know fully jailbroken a website that you can go prompt to sora quality sora 2 quality with anything no rules. >> Yes.
1:06:58
>> Like John but he lost 60 pounds and he's frail and he can't even bench a plate.
1:07:03
Like if somebody sent if somebody sent you failing to to to to even rep out, you know, a single rep. >> Yep.
1:07:10
>> You would be devastated.
1:07:12
>> I would be devastated.
1:07:13
>> And uh you got to be ready for that. >> Yeah.
1:07:15
Tyler, what do you what do you think?
1:07:16
>> Uh I I feel like I kind of disagree.
1:07:18
Like when you see um a headline from like The Onion, it's like you know it's it's like a joke.
1:07:23
It's not real cuz like you trust the the source it's coming from. >> So it's like a video. Yeah.
1:07:27
Like right now you can just trust a video if it looks real.
1:07:30
Um, but soon it'll just be like, "Oh, it's it's from a person I I don't know.
1:07:34
It's like non-reputable."
1:07:35
And then you just don't trust it.
1:07:35
And I don't think it's >> Yeah.
1:07:37
But but there's so many instances when you don't have a choice.
1:07:40
Like let's say you get a DM from someone randomly and there and it's a video.
1:07:47
It looks like a normal account and then it's a picture of your dog being run over by a car.
1:07:50
How is that going to feel?
1:07:53
You're gonna And let's say that only happens once every three years.
1:07:57
That's still pretty >> That's still pretty rough. >> That's pretty bad.
1:08:01
But I I'm I'm saying like in the in the sense of like persecuting someone for like if someone was stealing from Target, like you're not going to use the video if you don't know that the video is from the Target store.
1:08:10
You know what I'm saying? >> Sure. I Yeah.
1:08:12
And I don't think I I just think he's talking about the broad implications of not being able to trust like you can >> we already can't trust text, right? >> Yeah.
1:08:22
We've never been able to trust text because anyone with a typewriter could go and type up Jordy Hayes is accused of murder, right?
1:08:30
>> The chat just noticed Tyler Marros reds on the desk.
1:08:35
>> You got to actually uh stop right there. Yeah.
1:08:39
Um yeah, the the the the cigarettes are AI generated. Yeah.
1:08:43
Um but but we we already can't trust text, right?
1:08:46
Because anyone can go and get a typewriter and type up Johnny Jordy Hayes accused of stealing at Target, right?
1:08:53
And publish it on the internet or print it out and post it on a on a billboard, right?
1:08:58
Or or they can stick it to a to a telephone pole.
1:09:03
People have have still built up like these trust networks and institutions. Maybe this >> I know.
1:09:10
I'm just saying like video could be >> traumatizing for people. >> Yeah.
1:09:15
I'm not I'm not really a a a trauma bro.
1:09:19
>> Yeah, >> but imagine seeing some terrible event and it looks photorealistic and now that's in your brain.
1:09:26
>> Yeah, I Yeah, I I I agree with that.
1:09:28
There is going to need to be more control for the networks and more control on I mean there are there are like if you go to Netflix, you can set parental advisories and say I don't want to see any R-rated content.
1:09:38
Netflix by default doesn't show any adult content, but you can go in further and say, I I only want to see things that are G-rated and PG-rated, right?
1:09:46
And I would imagine that most of the platforms allow you to do that.
1:09:50
They do a lot of it by themselves.
1:09:52
Um, so I think a lot of the platforms will handle that.
1:09:54
also um I don't know people have just built up trust in all sorts of accounts, institutions, uh identities in the idea that uh if if I'm following this person or this organization or this website for years and they've built up years and years of trust that they will only that they will call it out when they when they're using an AI image or something like that.
1:10:16
Like I think that holds for longer than we think. >> Yeah.
1:10:20
And and remember I watched my first movie, Mountain Gate, or my second after >> Borat, >> and I thought the plot was like pretty weak and it was entirely around this idea that the world is actually collapsing because and going and and extremely chaotic because >> um so I'm I'm less >> worried about the >> I just think content is going to be made that should never be made >> and it's going to be dark.
1:10:49
Yeah, >> it's just going to be dark.
1:10:51
I'm not saying it's I'm not saying >> and most importantly, there's going to be more of that dark content because you can >> because it's just so much easier.
1:10:58
>> You can open up After Effects right now.
1:11:00
You can open up Photoshop and draw man stabbing someone else, but you know, it's going to look like a made in P.
1:11:06
>> And you could have spent a million dollars to make a photo realalistic CGI of an event, but nobody would ever do that. Yes.
1:11:13
And now it'll cost nothing to do at scale.
1:11:16
Anybody will be able to do it at all times.
1:11:18
Y and it's just and >> yeah, it's going to take a while until it's actually free.
1:11:24
Like every Sora generation is very expensive to actually marshall all of the GPUs.
1:11:29
Like even even if you're like, okay, I'm just like a NeoCloud and I need customers.
1:11:33
I'm going to let someone do some inference.
1:11:36
like there's going to be push back on, oh, you you're the one that's hosting this sketchy site that lets you generate celebrities killing each other or something like like there's going to be push back across the whole stack, the whole supply chain.
1:11:50
And I do think it will take another couple years for Sora 3 to pass the the Uncanny Valley. It took CGI a long time.
1:11:58
It'll probably take a few years.
1:12:00
Then it'll take another year, a couple years for like per generation costs to fall.
1:12:03
And then it'll take another Couple other examples Gabe in the chat says the Ukraine war was all over the X feed right there.
1:12:11
I I personally don't follow any of those accounts. Videos would pop up.
1:12:16
I'd say I'm not interested. Right.
1:12:18
I just don't want I don't want to be >> reading >> about technology through my friends and then suddenly see somebody, you know, get blown up by a drone, right? Yet I saw it a bunch.
1:12:29
Charlie Kirk assassination. Same thing.
1:12:33
>> I was uh we were live at NY.
1:12:33
I opened my laptop and I immediately saw the video.
1:12:39
A lot of people saw the video that wouldn't have wouldn't have, you know, if you gave them a choice, do you want to see an assassination or not, they would have said no, but those people still saw it because the way that content gets services. So, >> yeah.
1:12:52
Uh, quick update on the Tik Tok sale.
1:12:56
Poly Market has the announcement.
1:12:59
Uh, the market only resolves to yes if Bite Dance announces their intention to sell Tik Tok.
1:13:04
It has to come from bite dance.
1:13:06
It's at 48% uh by December of 30 uh by December 31st by the end of the year.
1:13:11
It jumped to 84% and now is falling.
1:13:14
So maybe uh there will be some retrading.
1:13:17
Maybe the sale will be delayed.
1:13:19
Um but we will keep keep tabs on the Tik Tok uh situation.
1:13:25
There are some more videos.
1:13:25
Do we want to react to more Sora videos?
1:13:26
There's a one of Minecraft plus GTA 5 with Sora 2.
1:13:32
Uh, sort of cool to be able to mix prompts.
1:13:35
This is a great example of what you were talking about.
1:13:37
1,000 likes, 60,000 views on X.
1:13:39
Who knows what it did in the Also underrated that Sora 2 can generate horizontal and vertical video.
1:13:47
Uh, VO3 is only horizontal. Vibes is only vertical.
1:13:52
And so being able to do both, I think it's more of a creative tool than we think.
1:13:56
But let's watch this Minecraft GTA 5 video. >> Still got two stars. They glue to it. Then craft them all. What you got? >> Just the block. Boom.
1:14:05
>> That's one way to model Los Santos.
1:14:07
>> Let's mine some distance before they respawn.
1:14:08
>> Man, the city ain't ready for >> Man, that is rough. That is rough.
1:14:16
>> We're never going to get that time back.
1:14:19
>> I'm sorry to everyone. >> I'm sorry.
1:14:21
I I thought we were going to be I thought it was like, yeah, we'll do like a little reaction stream.
1:14:24
We'll watch watch a bunch of videos and uh kind of give our reactions.
1:14:28
And my reaction to every single video is like uh not quite there.
1:14:32
And this is different than than the Dolli like the or the the studio Giblies.
1:14:36
Like I feel like I feel like that crossed the chasm.
1:14:40
It crossed the valley and this hasn't in some way.
1:14:43
>> I would love to I would love to understand >> open Chad GBT is like most active user types because it feels like >> you know new technology, new product.
1:14:54
It's probably, you know, heavily in that teenager to 40y old range.
1:14:57
And maybe sore is their way of going after the Facebook >> user. Yeah.
1:15:05
>> You know, the the 50 plus >> Yeah.
1:15:08
>> You know, maybe retired.
1:15:11
>> Well, if you want to generate some video for something that's not slop, you have a business use case, head over to Fall, the generative media platform for developers, the world's best generative image, video, and audio models all in one place.
1:15:22
There are a bunch of other interesting ways that you can use these tools.
1:15:26
You can develop and fine-tune models with serverless GPUs and on demand clusters.
1:15:29
Uh let's play this video from Vtorio of Mario uh boarding a SpaceX rocket and bone GPT says a Japanese lawyer just made generational wealth off of this clip.
1:15:42
Um, and I'm wonder, and the question I want you to answer, Jordy, is does this make you want to spend more money with Mario or less?
1:15:53
Is this a substitute for Mario content, or is this an ad for the real deal? Let's play the video. [Music] Let's go. Here we go. Oh, it's photoreal. It looks like Mario.
1:16:17
>> It doesn't look like a a star SpaceX rocket.
1:16:19
>> When you see examples of videos like that, I do believe that somebody could string enough of those together to keep a 5-year-old heavily engaged. >> Oh, 100%. There's no question.
1:16:30
So, bearish, bullish, I don't know. What does that mean? >> Yeah.
1:16:36
Well, Mario bought that bought his Tesla before Elon went crazy.
1:16:41
>> I mean, if you are running if you're running a a kids YouTube channel right now, you have got to be so excited, right?
1:16:48
Because you can just generate so much more content that you're putting ads for actual toys in and then you can have an affiliate link to go and buy the Mario stuffed animal or something and you're getting a cut of that.
1:16:59
Like, this feels like a huge huge unlock for that crowd. I don't know. What do you think?
1:17:07
>> Like if you're running like a Coco Melon type channel, >> I just think it'll be completely competed away. Yeah. Really quickly.
1:17:11
And the IP the real IP, the Miss Rachel's the uh what's the other one that um >> uh h what's his name? The kid toys. I don't know. I don't know that stuff. >> Yeah.
1:17:24
>> I stick to the the Lindy Pixar stuff. The craft.
1:17:28
>> Um >> uh David Holes hit the timeline and said, >> what did he say?
1:17:32
We need Loheed Martin to de to build us a truth seeeking missile.
1:17:37
>> He's like the most in the conversation right now and he's like just posting about Loheed.
1:17:40
Um anyway, >> and Matt Matt Mullenwig replies to attack the truth.
1:17:49
>> I guess >> that's not what we need. >> Who knows? >> Missiles.
1:17:52
Sterling Crispen says in infinite high quality media generated on a per user basis will erode our shared world model and narratives.
1:17:58
This is what we were talking about earlier with uh trust in institutions and crazy stuff happening on the internet.
1:18:04
Expansive yet hyper niche culture bubbles forming around handfuls of people.
1:18:08
The next generation may only have a few ideas they agree exist, a few nations and corporate entities.
1:18:14
Everything else will be content produced just for them, unseen by anyone else.
1:18:17
This will be accelerated by high-quality AI bots that act as their friends and long-distance lovers.
1:18:23
These bots will form long lifelong relationships with individuals, getting to know them in deeper ways than any other person could.
1:18:29
They'll create online social communities around an audience of just a few or one person, reducing people's need to share their experiences elsewhere.
1:18:36
The music, shows, movies, memes, and in jokes shared in these bot-based social communities will be generated on demand and entirely unseen by other people and vice versa.
1:18:46
Each person literally in their own world.
1:18:47
And these content bot streams will be hyperfocused to each individual's impulses and desires.
1:18:53
giving them exactly what they want to see next, the ultimate fire hose of dopamine.
1:18:56
It will be both extremely isolating and pleasurable in unimaginable ways.
1:18:59
Um, >> it's going to be ultimate internal war between, >> you know, he posted this in 2023. >> Wait, what? Wow. What?
1:19:10
>> So, Sterling Sterling quoted this post from 2023 and said, "Reposting this now that Meta and OpenAI have shipped the product."
1:19:16
This tweet is about the endgame is is just in time per user generated content leaving everyone hyper addicted and isolated with little to no shared cultural references between us. >> He's not a fan.
1:19:26
Uh this difference in ability to influence and control these systems.
1:19:30
>> You should have an affiliate link for black pills >> between those shaped by these systems and those shaping them.
1:19:34
Training and fine-tuning the models is one thing, but using them versus being used by them is another.
1:19:39
Are you the pig or are you the farmer?
1:19:41
Um, I suspect this skill will become the primary focus of higher education.
1:19:46
Somewhere between prompt engineering, pattern recognition, and being a kind of neural network whisperer who's able to shape their reality through sheer willpower. Interesting.
1:19:56
What do you think, Tyler?
1:19:56
What do you think, Tyler? Um, I think like maybe a steelman of like going against this is like you still see with like even though there's like you know insane brain rot like there's so many videos that there's like infinite videos
1:20:08
you can watch there's still like even within brain rot there's like distinct characters or something that that people still like to come back to cuz >> a lot of like the reason people like these things I I think is because you can share them with your friends. >> Yeah. And like if if it's if everything >> Yeah.
1:20:20
And like if if it's if everything is completely customized to you, you can never share it because it it will be like completely unintelligible. >> Yep.
1:20:28
>> So there's some maybe there's still some kind of like shared, >> you know, cultural Yeah.
1:20:33
>> thing going on despite it being completely like custom to each person.
1:20:38
There's still some something you can kind of share around. The Haze paradox. >> I think Yeah. Haze paradox.
1:20:41
I think about Maslo's hierarchy of needs.
1:20:43
this idea that like I I have I have content and I basically have a social network that's just for my family which is like the iMessage group chat and the photo feed that goes in there.
1:20:55
It's like you can share family photos with other people and extended family but it's not I'm not really like my kid photos are don't really hit with other people.
1:21:05
I'm not really in that world.
1:21:06
not really in that world. Uh but then I have we have Jordy we have in jokes with our group chat of guy friends basically that's a very tight circle and then we have PE we have a you know larger group chats that are maybe a couple hundred people there's Dunar's number 150 people
1:21:23
then there's the TBPN community and and everyone on X and then there's when we get something that really hits it goes viral and so there's like these there's like these layers of abstraction that you can operate on that that I don't know they they keep they keep some sort of semblance of of relevance. And then I
1:21:37
And then I I don't know if there's anything that only I find interesting.
1:21:42
Maybe that is the true Haze paradox.
1:21:44
Maybe we're we're going into a world of of more Hayes paradox context.
1:21:52
Everyone else is like >> obviously we're we're joking uh around a little bit here, but the the I propose the Hayes paradox, which is the the more funny you find something as an individual, the less likely that the masses will find it funny.
1:22:03
It's inversely correlated, which is when you maybe have a funny idea for the post that for a post that's cracking you up and no one else >> because it's too niche.
1:22:13
We saw this >> requires too many niche references. >> Yep.
1:22:17
>> Yep. We saw this with uh we were joking about like Ben Thompson being on vacation a particular day and there was some joke about that and like unless you're >> you know unless you understand our context and then also the Ben Tomkinson context there was like a hundred people
1:22:33
that would get that joke the whatever we posted and so it just didn't do well but I did notice that a few people who liked it were like my friends my real friends people in real life like and it would it hit >> I like finding I like finding a video or meme that I I'm not going to send to anybody but you. >> Yes. Yes. Yes. Or or just or just the >> Yes. Yes. Yes.
1:22:49
Or or just or just the six person group chat or just the family group chat or just the the you know the small niche community on X or the bigger broader community and stuff goes viral all over the internet.
1:23:00
Um >> Brian Loveven says Sor 2 looks impressive.
1:23:03
What's even more impressive is how little I care to watch anything made using it.
1:23:06
The Notion team is just firing shots.
1:23:10
>> They're going hard today.
1:23:10
Well, uh is notion they are notions on Turppuffer.
1:23:16
Search every bite serverless vector and full text search built from first principles and object storage fast 10x cheaper and extremely scalable.
1:23:21
I knew I had a lay up there because it's such a logical partnership between those two companies.
1:23:28
>> Alex Albert who we had on the show yesterday says over these next few years it's going to become more and more important that you resist letting slop consume you.
1:23:34
Keep creating, keep learning, keep thinking.
1:23:36
There is a wild wild divide between like the the slop farm v video apps and then uh the coding agents like no one's really leveling uh slop complaints about coding agents and I and it's something about like I don't know you don't just consume it or I don't know what >> I think there are some people who are like vibe coding apps just produce like slop code but there is definitely still a difference.
1:24:04
Yeah, I guess there's still so much of a human in the loop and it's such a and and most of the most of the code that will be written with uh with Claude 4.
1:24:14
5 is doing stuff that I don't know.
1:24:19
It's just like it it it's it's automating manual processes.
1:24:21
It's not something that you're looking for craft in necessarily.
1:24:25
>> Tom Tom Osman in the chat says hog engineering >> post engineer post hog. >> Oh, hog engineering.
1:24:32
It's the It's the slob vibe coding app. >> Yeah, I don't know.
1:24:37
There's a there's a bunch of great memes in here.
1:24:38
Parham has a photo of an image loading in images in chatbt.
1:24:44
We need more compute to cure cancer, right?
1:24:46
And it's like a Bart Simpson or Lisa Simpson image loading.
1:24:52
Uh >> Casey Neistad had a had a good uh summary of Sora Tik Tok but all AI but with real people.
1:25:02
>> Yeah, very interesting.
1:25:02
Can we play the the Casey Neistat video of him reviewing a giant nicotine pouch? >> Slider. I'm gonna try it. >> Oh my gosh.
1:25:11
It's like a pillow in my lip. >> It's crazy.
1:25:13
It's a loud this is this is allowed content because >> Did he make this?
1:25:18
Did someone else make this with him?
1:25:20
Did he upload his avatar or his his cameo and allow that?
1:25:22
And then in general >> Yeah. I mean, yeah.
1:25:26
You think PMI's on top of this?
1:25:29
like, oh, you know, how how is our IP being used in >> Well, I don't think I don't think uh PMI would mind that at all. >> No, not at all.
1:25:37
Uh and so there's this weird >> free ad for Zen. >> Totally.
1:25:41
They can't advertise on on, you know, typical social media platforms.
1:25:45
So, yeah, very very odd times, odd tradeoff if you're a CEO of some legacy company with some IP, with a brand, and you want to know, well, you know, what's what has Coca-Cola thought about Instagram over the past three years?
1:25:59
It's been like, how do we get Coca-Cola in every Instagram influencers, you know, mailbox?
1:26:04
Like, we we need to be on that platform. What's our strategy? We need to buy ads.
1:26:07
We need to be doing influencers.
1:26:09
We need to get a private plane, put all the Coca-Cola influencers on a plane, and have them post about it, right?
1:26:14
Like we talked to Emily Sunberg about this.
1:26:15
Like the name of the game has been like get your brand on Instagram.
1:26:18
And now there's this there's going to be a question for a lot of brands like how do they how do they get their brand mentioned in Sora?
1:26:24
That'll be an interesting thing.
1:26:26
Maybe uh James from Profound will chime in on on recommendations for strategy for brands, for creators, for folks uh that aren't just deciding whether or not to consume.
1:26:36
Tyler, >> um may maybe an interesting idea um is like once these models kind of get out like at least to some extent in like open source stuff where you can make your own model.
1:26:45
>> Um I think it'd be cool if some like big company basically uh does free inference but they fine-tune it so that every video has like their product in it.
1:26:52
So, Coca-Cola releases like um some like platform where it's free in France.
1:26:56
You can do any video you want, but every single video has the the bottle in it.
1:27:01
Yeah, >> I think that could be interesting idea. >> Yeah, I'd like that.
1:27:03
We could definitely >> that would be >> potentially abused to to degrees never before >> immediate.
1:27:09
You know what people are going to go and do?
1:27:10
They're going to they're going to try and degrade the brand that's providing that free inference immediately.
1:27:14
Like, uh >> 4chan would go >> it's like when 4chan tried to send uh Justin Bieber to North Korea. It's the best.
1:27:21
Like the internet is is beyond is creative beyond all imagination, which is maybe the bullcase here. I don't know.
1:27:29
>> Says, "Not even excited about the new cla Open AAI stuff today. Kind of lost its hype.
1:27:32
Wow, benchmarks are 2% better.
1:27:35
Wow, Shopify can now be used to show products. Who cares, man? Where is the cool stuff?
1:27:39
We hit AGI months ago and nothing functionally has changed >> since." Wow.
1:27:43
We hit major AGI months ago. >> I don't know.
1:27:48
>> And that's what I was saying.
1:27:48
You you you you show you show an advance, you know, a major advancement in the technology, innovative stuff at the product level and people are sad about it. >> Yeah, very odd.
1:28:00
Well, people aren't sad about linear because linear is purpose-built tool for planning and building products.
1:28:06
Meet the system for modern software development, streamline issues, projects, and product road maps and start building >> slop.
1:28:14
>> Guyer Capital says, "I've seen enough reacting to sore too.
1:28:16
I I am raising my probability that the entire AI bubble is going to produce nothing but Facebook slop and TV and TV commercials for to 20%.
1:28:26
That's that that's crazy because of code coding and knowledge retrieval.
1:28:29
Uh I I don't know that produce nothing but is kind of crazy because like people are going to be doing deep research comes out of the last >> week and a half looking great.
1:28:42
>> Yeah, the the race is on.
1:28:42
Uh they apparently Anthropic had an an image model and they decided not to ship it because of like you know concerns.
1:28:49
It was also weird uh someone in the chat yesterday was asking about like oh why didn't we press Anthropic on uh the the hunger strike person?
1:28:56
I still need to dig into that story because I don't understand why how they picked it.
1:29:00
It's like of all of all the labs anthropic seems like definitely like the most >> you haven't studied the lab. >> Am I crazy?
1:29:10
Like I got to interview this person because I got to know like how'd you pick that one when we have Annie over here and Sora over there and Vibes over there and VO3 like the the the the moving fast, you know, memes are not the strongest in anthropic.
1:29:27
They're like very carefully like how how do we write better code?
1:29:30
How do we write better code? Uh I don't know. What what do you think?
1:29:34
You think it's re reasonable to go protest outside of Enthropic? >> Uh no.
1:29:37
It kind of doesn't make any sense.
1:29:38
But maybe maybe the the reasoning is like maybe they they think anthropic is the most AGI pilled company at which point then you should be protesting them right if like other companies are going into consumer and doing AI video like it's like oh they're >> you mean most AGI pled or most AGI likely like like if there's a AGI breakthrough it will come from anthropic because >> I think both. Yeah. >> Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> It doesn't Yeah.
1:30:01
It is very strange considering like how like >> it does seem like they're the least reckless of all the labs. Definitely. >> I mean I don't know.
1:30:07
They they had that book settlement.
1:30:08
So, you know, RIP to the authors, but they got paid.
1:30:10
So, good news for the for the authors. Uh, sign in with chat.
1:30:14
This is an interesting underrated feature that OpenAI kind of shipped.
1:30:18
So, when you when you when you when you download the Sora app, you're prompted to log in with ChatGpt.
1:30:23
You get portable identity for all of AI.
1:30:26
It doesn't feel like they bootstrapped the Sora feed.
1:30:30
There isn't enough content right now.
1:30:32
But in theory, there is a world where if we were a couple months down the road, there was a lot of content in there.
1:30:39
The Pulse feature from Chat GPT I think is fantastic.
1:30:42
I haven't been a DAU yet, but uh when I went on Pulse, it was pulling really interesting articles about capex and and AI labs and even some, you know, production equipment that we're using here. I liked it.
1:30:57
I felt like it was properly fine-tuned on me.
1:30:59
I didn't feel like my Sora feed was that it was all the same almond stuff.
1:31:02
Um, but you could imagine a future where you've been using Chat GPT for a while.
1:31:06
You just find out about Sora in December.
1:31:09
You're at Thanksgiving or something in November.
1:31:12
And your cousin says, "Oh, are you using Chat GBT?"
1:31:17
And yeah, I use that every once in a while at work.
1:31:19
And they're like, "Well, you should check out this new app."
1:31:21
And then when you go and sign in with Chad GPT, the first Sora feed is quickly looking at your Chat GPT history, understanding that you have a dog, understanding that you have a particular type of dog, understanding that you have kids, understanding that you like to travel to France.
1:31:33
And so it puts all that together and routes you to a particular corner of the Sora feed and gives you more customized content on >> and you can imagine Sora going pretty hard over Thanksgiving. >> Yep.
1:31:47
>> Just because it is optimized for entertainment. Yeah. What?
1:31:49
Uh, Tyler, I'll let you respond and then I have another thing. >> Yeah.
1:31:54
I was just gonna say I think it's even more natural instead of just like putting you in some like corner of the algorithm that it just like actually just writes the prompts for the videos. >> Totally. Yeah.
1:32:02
You can already see that that's what it's doing in in uh in Pulse.
1:32:05
It's clearly looking at what I'm searching and then writing new prompts for uh John search for AI capex.
1:32:09
Write a new prompt for what he might be interested in. Go find new sources. Piece all that together. Generate an article.
1:32:18
even generate an AI image as a header for that article and you could just generate a video that summarizes that or entertains based on that.
1:32:25
It is a further step because it's basically just firing off an like an 03 pro or like a GPT5 pro query for me.
1:32:32
Um, and those are great and whereas these are clearly still in the uncanny valley not really delivering value.
1:32:39
You could imagine that I open my feed and if I look on my YouTube like my YouTube shorts feed is like Dylan Patel clips and like it is like meat and potatoes like I like the content that gets surfaced to me.
1:32:50
Um and you can imagine that SOR is generating that stuff and that would make uh the the positive reception like the more customization the more personalization there is people will love that once that happens and it moves out of this just like it's all demo clips of like Sam Alman like people don't there the people will get sick of that they'll want something special anyway >> numeralhq.
1:33:13
com sales tax and autopilot five minutes per month on sales tax compliance if you're selling something online. You got to get in.
1:33:20
Got to get >> Let numero worry about it.
1:33:22
Meanwhile, in the real economy, >> what you got? >> Things are bleak.
1:33:29
>> Oh yeah, >> things are bleak.
1:33:30
Uh ADP revised down September.
1:33:35
>> Payrolls is now negative 32,000.
1:33:35
Worst since March of 2023.
1:33:42
>> And certainly a barbell out there right now. >> Where where are we?
1:33:47
>> Oh, I just pulled that up randomly. >> Okay. Okay.
1:33:49
Yeah, you're not lost >> really far.
1:33:51
Um, >> yeah, >> but I just think it it it cannot be overstated how how detached >> tech is from >> the AI hype cycle is from the real economy. >> It's true. It's true.
1:34:02
Um, we will see where it goes.
1:34:08
I don't know what what where should we move to next in the real economy?
1:34:13
There's there are a lot of different things in the real economy.
1:34:18
Let's just get out of sort two land. >> Okay, sure.
1:34:19
Uh our partner Adio was running some ads in London. There we go.
1:34:24
Nicholas Sharp uh posted some photos and they're beautiful photos of these billboards. We love billboards. We love Adio.
1:34:30
Customer relationship magic.
1:34:30
Adio is the AI native CRM that builds, scales, and grows your company to the next level. Um this is interesting.
1:34:35
San Francisco got inspired and built the elevated Salesforce Park, a down a downtown a true downtown jewel.
1:34:41
This was apparently allegedly inspired by the uh the the the line. Wait, no.
1:34:49
What's that one called in in Manhattan?
1:34:50
Uh >> oh, I forget what it's called.
1:34:54
>> See, my immediate reaction is, is this real?
1:34:57
Because it looks incredibly beautiful. >> It is real. >> It is real.
1:35:01
>> This is Salesforce Spark.
1:35:01
This is uh Beni off going off.
1:35:03
Credit where credit is due.
1:35:06
>> Yeah, >> Ben off cooked. >> He did. >> This is amazing.
1:35:09
We we've been this is not what this this looks like the you know the the the f this is what the future would look you know that >> Yeah. Yeah.
1:35:19
>> Well, have you have you been to the Highline >> in uh in New York? >> Yes.
1:35:24
>> The Highline's interesting.
1:35:24
It's over a mile long elevated park.
1:35:27
Former rail train went on it and they decided to It was a former New York Central Railroad on the west side.
1:35:35
um brought in some people, built it, and now it's just a place where people um walk around. A lot of fun.
1:35:44
Um some some sort of nonprofit.
1:35:47
In 1999, Friends of the Highline advocated for preservation and reuse as a public space or an an elevated park or greenway.
1:35:53
Celebrity New Yorkers joined in on fundraising and support for the concept.
1:35:58
Repurposing the railway into an urban park began in 2006 and opened in phases from 2009 to 2011 to 2014.
1:36:03
The spur and exp extension of a of the highline that originally connected with the Morgan General Mail facility at 10th Avenue and 30th Street opened in 2019.
1:36:16
The Moahan connector extending east from the spur opened in 2023.
1:36:19
So, they're still building stuff out there.
1:36:22
>> Finally, a white pill on today's show.
1:36:24
We can still build beautiful things. >> We can. We can get out there.
1:36:29
>> Looks like the world if meme. >> Yes.
1:36:31
Uh in other news, Brett Adcock is uh ra is assembling a capital formation team. What does this mean?
1:36:37
Uh my companies have raised four billion in the last five years and now it's time to reacelerate.
1:36:43
Brad Edcock is the founder of Archer Aviation. Correct. And uh Figure Robotics. Yes.
1:36:51
>> Uh and this team will raise tens of billions to bring sci-fi into the present.
1:36:55
Reporting directly to him. DM's open. No remote candidates.
1:36:57
It's in San Jose, California.
1:36:59
So, if you want to go allocate some capital, hell, head over to his >> raise capital.
1:37:04
I don't know if you're going to be allocating >> LZ.
1:37:06
Uh, should we go back to Sor?
1:37:09
>> No, we got to get out of Sorland.
1:37:11
>> You You're done with it. >> I'm sick of it.
1:37:12
I'm >> You're done with it.
1:37:13
Uh, >> let's get into So, Dylan Patel went on >> fantastic episode. >> Best like the best. >> Highly recommend it. Really breaks down.
1:37:22
>> OpenAI, Anthropic, AMD, XAI, Oracle, Meta, and Google.
1:37:24
Uh, on OpenAI, Dylan said, "Super awesome."
1:37:27
On Anthropic, he said, "I'm I'm actually more optimistic on anthropic than I am Open AI.
1:37:31
The revenue is accelerating way faster because of what they're focused on.
1:37:35
Is more relevant to that $2 trillion software market versus OpenAI's split between software, AI for science, AI for consumer.
1:37:43
They're also doing hardware, etc. , etc.
1:37:46
Anthropic is definitely executing on the software side better.
1:37:49
AMD, I love them, but they're pretty mid. doing the best.
1:37:55
>> Uh XAI, they're in real danger of not being able to raise capital.
1:38:00
>> Again, uh XAI had to come out and say we're we're we have plenty of demand. >> Yep.
1:38:06
>> Uh if you have to say that to to a journalist that's digging probably um you know, probably something to the story.
1:38:14
Uh, of course, everyone's going to give Elon capital, but the scale of capital required uh for him to keep up. He can get the next bet.
1:38:21
XAI can get to the next stage of compute.
1:38:24
They won't have more compute than OpenAI.
1:38:25
They don't have more compute than any individual company, Google Meta, etc.
1:38:30
But they will have the biggest individual data center.
1:38:31
They'll have a very focused team.
1:38:33
And what they do with that, they have to do something really big.
1:38:36
Otherwise, they will fall behind in the race.
1:38:38
And Elon will not let that happen.
1:38:40
He can subsidize and fund this round, but as rich as he is, he can't go to a 3 gawatt data center unless he gets capital, which he can't do unless he gets revenue uh and fundraising.
1:38:48
Again, >> um you know, uh XAI has government contracts.
1:38:55
They have um >> romantic companions.
1:38:58
>> They have romantic companions.
1:38:58
There are people >> on X like Grock is this real that that whole thing.
1:39:04
Um, I do wonder, it's funny to reflect on the mood around the uh, romantic companion launch, Annie and Valentine.
1:39:12
People were definitely like, this is going to, this is bad, but it'll be popular, which is the same that we heard about Vibes, and it's the same that we're hearing about Sora, right?
1:39:22
And I wonder like, is it popular?
1:39:22
Like, like we were kind of debating and one of the ideas that was kicking around was like, okay, maybe this is weird. Maybe it's Black Mirror. Maybe it's dystopian.
1:39:33
Maybe it should be avoided as a recommendation if you want to live a good life.
1:39:36
But it's possible that this generates a billion dollars in free cash flow because people love talking to their AI girlfriends and then they wind up buying their AI girlfriends virtual items that are 100% margin like the CSGO skin that I purchased for myself which I still enjoy.
1:39:52
Um, and you can imagine a situation where you fall in love with your AI companion and you're spending not just not just $200 a month for Grock 4 heavy pro, but you're spending Yeah.
1:40:05
millions and and you get the whales that you see on >> which sounds people have actually done.
1:40:10
>> It happens on only fans and it happens on mobile games, right?
1:40:11
There are whales that spend a ton of money because they have a ton of money and they love the product. Has that happened? Like I I don't know.
1:40:18
I haven't heard any stories about uh Anie like whales or Anie companions or or anie even getting a lot of traction like we it's not like we've seen we've seen >> popped on the charts with in Japan. >> Yeah.
1:40:32
>> But >> yeah, how are we tracking?
1:40:33
And then also like it's rolled into so many other products.
1:40:37
It's like there isn't like a standalone metric that we can be tracking because it's not a public company and we're not it's not a pure play and so it's not like we can be tracking DAUs and time on site and and average you know our poo month by month or quarter by quarter at this point.
1:40:52
Uh but it'll be interesting. I I I don't know.
1:40:56
But I mean it does feel like if if they can get that flywheel going that's something that could uh that could be a catalyst for marshing marshalling the capital regardless of what you think about it morally.
1:41:05
Um if there's uh if there's demand for those for that inference to chat with Anie and Valentine and that's something that OpenAI and Google and Meta are staying away from well that's an opportunity.
1:41:14
So we'll see where it goes.
1:41:18
>> Uh Oracle is going to make so much money if you believe OpenAI is successful.
1:41:22
Meta Dylan Patel thinks Meta's got the cards to potentially own it all.
1:41:24
The only company in the world that has the full stack from good hardware.
1:41:28
That's what Meta just showed with their glasses with the screen plus good models plus capacity to serve them plus the knowledge and knowhow.
1:41:34
know knowhow around recommendation systems to know what content to put in front of the user.
1:41:40
It's all four of these that you need plus the capital.
1:41:41
I think Meta is close to being the only company that can do that.
1:41:45
Google Dylan Patel was pretty bearish on Google two years ago, but he's super bullish Google now.
1:41:49
They're waking up on every front. They're taking the TPUs.
1:41:53
They're selling them externally.
1:41:54
They're taking their models and they're actually competitive on them and they're training much better and better.
1:42:00
They're being aggressive on infrastructure investments.
1:42:01
There's a lot of dysfunction throughout the company, but they do have the hardware business that they can pivot into this.
1:42:08
They do have Android, YouTube, and all these IPs.
1:42:09
Uh they have search that can come together when we turn to the next interface of consumer, but they also can dominate the professional sense too.
1:42:17
And I think Google's well positioned to capture both markets or a meaningful share of both.
1:42:21
Well, >> um >> interesting.
1:42:24
They didn't cover Microsoft in here. >> No.
1:42:28
And they also didn't cover Finn.
1:42:28
ai, AI, the number one AI agent customer service, number one performance benchmarks, number one competitive bake offs, number one ranking on G2.
1:42:35
Um, but we'll have to get Dylan Patel's take on that.
1:42:41
Um, in other news, we mentioned it earlier, but uh this the the the team over at Cognition rebuilt Devon for Claude Sonnet 4. 5.
1:42:49
I don't think we'll have full time to dig into this whole writeup, but it's interesting that they they dropped in Sonnet 4.
1:42:57
5 into the old Devon and they did see a higher score, but it took more time and so they rewrote it and they got both an even higher score with even more time saved, which is obviously valuable.
1:43:13
Um, they said the new version is twice as fast and 12% better on our junior developer eval and it's now available in agent preview and they're keeping the old Devon alive.
1:43:24
Uh, it remains available.
1:43:28
Uh, >> well, Alex me, we didn't get into it a ton, but Alex in anthropic yesterday was was very excited about four five's potent potential on the agent front. >> Yeah.
1:43:37
>> Um, Nick Carter has a a good little deep dive.
1:43:42
Uh, I was going to call it a mid dive, not not >> It's pretty deep.
1:43:46
You You want to hop in this?
1:43:48
We got a We got a guest joining in six minutes, but we can try and rip through this.
1:43:53
>> We can come We can come back to it.
1:43:55
>> I'd like to have you on the show to talk, but but we Let's go through it.
1:43:58
It's an interesting question. >> Few points here.
1:44:01
>> Uh, he says, "The stable coin duopoly is ending."
1:44:03
He's obviously referencing USDC and USDT.
1:44:05
Circle equity is currently worth 30 billion.
1:44:08
Tether's Topco is reportedly raising capital of 500 billion which would >> become if they can get that done before open AI that would be the most valuable private company in the world.
1:44:24
>> Isn't that more than SpaceX?
1:44:24
more than SpaceX, more than uh OpenAI.
1:44:25
Uh >> why do people why do bankers draw the money tender at 500?
1:44:34
>> Um but yeah, again this I think the most profitable per uh company in the world on a per employee basis.
1:44:41
>> Uh together the two stable coins boast 245 billion in supply or about 85% of the stable coin market.
1:44:47
>> Since inception only Tether and Circle have maintained meaningful market share.
1:44:50
No one else has even come close.
1:44:50
Die peaked at 10 billion in early 2022.
1:44:55
Terror's Doom US did surge to 18 billion in 2022, but accounted for only 10% of the market and that was only briefly.
1:45:03
The most uh ambitious attempt to dethrone Tether and Circle was Binance's BUSD, which peaked at 23 billion.
1:45:09
So, he goes into some of the new market dynamics.
1:45:14
Um, one, you know, we had uh Zach on from Bridge yesterday talking about uh how anybody can now sort of quickly uh originate stable coins.
1:45:22
So, expect to see a lot more uh banks do this.
1:45:29
They're not going to just give up the yield that they currently get from dollars.
1:45:33
So, um so yeah, I'm interested to see what the legacy banks do, credit unions, etc.
1:45:40
, how quickly they'll move here.
1:45:43
uh because they're certainly all paying attention.
1:45:46
>> Yeah, I still don't fully understand the full chain of value acrruel because if you need crosschain interactions, there could be attacks there as you're trying to get from one stable coin to another.
1:46:00
Uh why is this market not monopolistic?
1:46:03
Why hasn't why hasn't one just run away with it in the way that Bitcoin has with that digital gold narrative?
1:46:07
Why are we seeing a proliferation of stable coins?
1:46:12
It is it is an interesting uh topic to dig into.
1:46:14
Um but anything else you want to cover from the >> No.
1:46:19
Do we have our first guest yet? Not quite. >> Couple minutes.
1:46:21
How'd you sleep last night? I uh I got a new phone.
1:46:25
I wasn't logged into my eight sleep app.
1:46:27
I should have been because I got a 98. >> 98 baby. And >> 79.
1:46:33
I >> last night I got an 87 hours. >> So I still beat you. Play my song. Jordy Hayes. >> There you go. >> Let's go. Thanks.
1:46:39
Uh, Buco Capitals shares Amazon, Google, Microsoft, Meta, and Oracle are now spending 60% of their operating cash flow on capex.
1:46:49
>> It's time to build, baby.
1:46:49
It's >> expected to go higher.
1:46:51
You think they'll Where do you think they'll get to? >> Yeah.
1:46:56
Why not spend 100% of it?
1:46:56
Why not spend 100% of it and they'll then go raise debt and then spend more?
1:46:59
Like, I don't know what's the efficient frontier.
1:47:03
If if the capex is valuable, if it returns if it returns profits, go higher.
1:47:09
Liz says it's going to go even higher.
1:47:11
>> We've talked about it. We've talked about it.
1:47:12
But, uh, you know, if you have the leaders of these companies that don't care about ROI, that could take us into >> quite dangerous territory >> potentially. Yeah.
1:47:24
What do you think, Tyler?
1:47:25
>> Uh, I just have some other news.
1:47:25
Um, uh, Thinking Machines has released a product.
1:47:29
I mean, it's not it's not really a product. It's an it's an API.
1:47:32
>> It's an AI video app >> and it's adult themed.
1:47:38
They took the reinss off thinking machines.
1:47:41
What what do you think the the machines are thinking about?
1:47:42
They're thinking about >> gooning.
1:47:45
>> But um it's basically it's an API.
1:47:45
Um they you can basically do like training.
1:47:49
So it's like they they have a couple supported models.
1:47:52
I think it's just Quen and Llama, a bunch of >> Okay. >> of those series.
1:47:55
Um >> but they basically it's just like we handle the infrastructure, you just give us the data and then we'll you can fine-tune.
1:48:02
>> Is this uh I remember the narrative around thinking machines being like it's RL for business.
1:48:06
So if I want the the the the the fine-tuned version of the most cutting edge open source LLM thinking machines will allow me the infrastructure to to do that to fine-tune to reinforcement learn on top of my >> data.
1:48:22
I don't know if it's um oh I think it actually is RL.
1:48:24
I I need to read through the the whole announcement.
1:48:26
It's they haven't released a ton of it but um >> yeah pretty interesting.
1:48:29
I mean it seems like kind of very competitive with uh I think open AI offers the same thing they do a fine tuning of of the big models >> but maybe there's value in focusing and being known for that specifically and then having a really clear divide.
1:48:40
I mean open AI with that product obviously they if you're on the enterprise plan they won't train on your data but there's still like this you know you're dealing with a with a shog with multiple product lines.
1:48:50
product lines. uh you go to Mera maybe you get a more focused team that's really uh you know not AGI belt at all I guess right does this update your timelines your P Doom >> uh I don't think so I mean this this is kind of expected of of what they were
1:49:06
like they kind of said that they were going to do art for business they're doing fine tunes >> this was our riff what did Meera see you know everyone asks what did I see before he left but what did Meera see maybe she saw business value creation And that's what I like. Let's hear it. Let's hear it. >> Thinking machines. >> We love it. Fine tuning. >> It's essential.
1:49:28
Who else is going to do it? Uh there's $6.
1:49:30
2 million fund raise for No. Why? I cannot pronounce that. Arlin.
1:49:39
>> We interviewed Arland. >> Word. Arlland. That's right. At YC Demo Day. >> YC Demo Day. >> Amazing.
1:49:43
Well, congratulations to Arland.
1:49:45
CRV's in, box groups in, local globe. >> Some good names. hit that gong for Arlin.
1:49:50
Congratulations on the progress. >> Congratulations.
1:49:54
Uh there's some other cool stuff. Uh uh uh ha uh Mr.
1:49:56
Hafner here, Donna Jar, is announcing Dreamer for an agent that learns to solve complex control tasks entire entirely inside of its scalable world model.
1:50:08
This is what um this is what Tyler was alluding to with uh some of the value of world models besides just playing Minecraft.
1:50:17
uh actually teaching just serving as a reinforcement learning environment.
1:50:22
Um and then there's there's a bunch of other stuff in here.
1:50:24
Um intern says, "Hey man, just wanted to reach out and say how much I loved how much you drank at the networking event last night."
1:50:38
You're not going to get that on Sora.
1:50:40
You gota you got to go ask for that.
1:50:42
>> Uh >> you're also not going to get that from Grock, apparently. >> No, it's not. >> Not yet.
1:50:46
Uh you're also uh there's also a wonderful ranking of energy drinks here.
1:50:52
Notably missing is Andrew Huberman's Yera Mate Matina of course, but uh Goth says the gold can is elite.
1:50:59
If you don't believe me or don't get it, I don't have time to convince you. Sorry.
1:51:03
And that's the caffeine-free diet coke.
1:51:05
I do the caffeinated diet coke.
1:51:07
But interesting the post is claiming that the gold can diet coke, the caffeine-free and sugarf free diet coke, it's just forever chemicals apparently is is uh the drink of men who are destined to find eras history and who will be remembered for >> pure forever chemical carbonated forever.
1:51:29
>> Well, if you're bullish on Coke or bearish on Coke, head over to public.
1:51:31
com investing for those that take it seriously.
1:51:35
They got multi-asset investing, industryleading yields, and they're trusted by millions.
1:51:38
We have our first guest of the show, Reese Chowry from Concept Ventures.
1:51:44
Welcome to the show, Ree. How are you doing? >> Good, good. How are you guys? Big fan of the show. Thanks. Thanks for having me on. I really appreciate it.
1:51:53
>> Thanks for hopping on the show. Give us the news. Break it down for us.
1:51:54
What's happening today in your world?
1:51:58
>> So, uh, today, well, actually, yesterday, we launched, um, our latest fund. It's $88 million.
1:52:02
Yes, you can ring the gong.
1:52:06
>> We have we have a a bell in our office and we put it in many years ago and people people would always ring it as well.
1:52:14
So, I thought that's I love I love the analogy. So, >> let's go bigger.
1:52:19
Let's get you a Liberty Bell.
1:52:21
I don't I just from the way you describe the bell, I can tell it's not taller than you and it's got to be huge.
1:52:27
I want a massive >> Well, 88 million.
1:52:28
You have the management fe fees to have a bell guy that just stands there ready to Think two and 20 you get 2% for the fee. You don't get 2%.
1:52:36
You get 2% over 10 years. 20%.
1:52:39
You might you could spend $2 million on a bell tomorrow. And I think you should. >> That's it.
1:52:43
That's the first order that's going on Amazon.
1:52:46
>> So give us give us the pitch for the fun. Give us the strategy.
1:52:48
A bit of a contrarian take.
1:52:50
You're hunting for value in Europe.
1:52:53
>> Yeah, we that's uh we are hunting for value.
1:52:56
So first of obviously we're based in Europe. We're based in London.
1:52:57
So you know contrarian to many guests you may be having.
1:53:01
be having. extremely >> awesome that you've got some European founders on and Carl and Victor I saw that again two contrarians there as well and so we we really focus on that earlier stage of investing the concept stage or that preede stage there's not many preede funds in Europe and you know we've got the largest as of as of yesterday and you know we're focused
1:53:24
exclusively on investing at in the people themselves so we go very very deep in in you know everything about people from like their childhood to the how they met their co-founder and you know what they spike in and you know do they have like are they like a chess champion and we you know we break it down into kind of four kind of archetypes which most unicorn founders um specialize in. So we have no sectors
1:53:45
So we have no sectors basically.
1:53:47
basically. So either you're a first first- time founder that maybe worked at big tech, you had a first- time founder that you've you know been out of Unicorn like you know we've got a company that's spun out of synthesia a company called
1:53:59
Anam which is backed by rep point or you're a second time founder or a PhD spin out and so like within the team we all kind of specialize in one group of people and that like really gives us an insight and traits having like worked with I don't know second time founders. >> Yeah. >> Yeah.
1:54:12
>> Are they learning all their lessons before?
1:54:14
So we we often take these very contrarian bets in really rogue sectors from high frequency trading to robotics to commodities marketplaces and >> let's give it up for high frequency >> trading.
1:54:26
Question question for you.
1:54:26
How does having less competition at preede?
1:54:31
Obviously every stage is hyper competitive now at least in in the US.
1:54:37
>> Basically every preede allocator that we know is moving up the stack in in in the US.
1:54:41
At least that's what I can tell.
1:54:41
It feels like I'm hearing that from so many American preede investors who are like, >> "Well, people are moving down the stack, >> too."
1:54:49
15 years ago, it was super uncompetitive. I was the only one I do.
1:54:53
Explain what a preede firm was.
1:54:53
Now I'm doing series >> BS.
1:54:55
Well, well, it's also even if you're still doing preede, you oftentimes have >> you, you know, preede lead.
1:55:00
If you really want to lead a preede round, which maybe call it a 500k check, you often have to make a decision in 24 hours.
1:55:10
Like you need to move quick.
1:55:10
hours. Like you need to move quick. you need to move often times faster than you might be comfortable and so having a little less competition at that stage I I don't know does that change your process at all do are you do you have more time to get to know founders or you
1:55:24
still feeling um you know that that urgency >> yeah look I think um I think in in in in Europe we're traditionally maybe a little bit more conservative than the US and you know we love you know trai when I when we started concept everyone was
1:55:40
like you're crazy literally you're crazy for doing this because you know you really needed a you know market or a product or you know and in Europe you know traditionally we all come from outside we're we're not insiders to VC at all like we haven't come from those top names we all the team are not not
1:55:59
from that background and I think that gives us a real edge in kind of like evaluating but also taking that risk and I think what we see if there's no product or markets typically to go after the underwriting process is actually a lot quicker because you're literally evaluating people. So typically our
1:56:13
So typically our process takes like we call it like five hour energy because it's like you know 5 hours of founders time and you know we go through our process and we're looking for very specific traits and things in those individuals and we when we get that we we're happy to lead.
1:56:27
We lead 90% of our rounds.
1:56:29
We don't care what other people do.
1:56:31
You know we don't care about FOMO.
1:56:32
You know it's a very kind of set deal.
1:56:35
typically were investing a million dollars at kind of the the start and you know we don't need everybody else to kind of make that decision and I think you know generally Europe needs needs more of that.
1:56:44
I mean you had Matty on the show you know obviously that was that was our first investment out of the last fund. >> Oh let's go. >> That's amazing. What a banger.
1:56:51
Jordy, you got to >> Yeah.
1:56:54
Just just every if you're getting a fund off the ground just back one founder like 10 more pre at least you know you know one time a fund.
1:57:02
you'll probably be pretty in a pretty good spot.
1:57:05
Where's your what's your LP base look like for the new fund?
1:57:08
Are we are we uh >> uh like you know what what what's the mix?
1:57:13
European >> they lean more Italian supercar owners or British supercar owners?
1:57:20
>> No, we're only allowed to talk about golf now given given the last uh you know obviously Europe's won something so we got to focus on that.
1:57:26
Um but no but no to answer your question we've actually got um most of the institutions we on boarded in this fund I think 80% of them are US actually.
1:57:37
>> Okay interesting let's go keep it in the face thank you for >> thank you for working for our allocation >> secret American secret American over there doing work for us.
1:57:47
Uh okay question lightning round question >> please like please >> I want I want to hear about sourcing.
1:57:55
You have uh you have three places where you can go to source the next great preede founder.
1:57:59
You can go to a Cambridge student union meetup, meet young new grads.
1:58:06
You could go to uh a pub outside of Deep Mind after they just failed the training run.
1:58:12
You can try and poach someone from there.
1:58:13
Or you can go to Monaco during F1.
1:58:14
Which one are you picking and why?
1:58:18
>> I' I'm taking the Deep Mind Deep Mind every day. >> Hang out at the bar.
1:58:21
Get the disgruntled Deep Mind.
1:58:23
Oh, the training run just failed.
1:58:25
I want to start a company.
1:58:25
I got to get out of this bureaucracy.
1:58:29
>> Yeah, I think I think I take take that.
1:58:31
And in the last one, we I think we invested in uh three three ex palunteer people.
1:58:36
So, we love a good four deployed engineer.
1:58:39
Uh and so I think that's uh something you know we we we think that talent generally gravitates to places that have amazing cultures and we spend a lot of time looking in the cultures of those companies particularly in Europe.
1:58:51
And I think you've had this one wave of you know the UI pass the Spotify you were at the Kleiner IPO obviously and that was kind of like one wave which has happened and like you know gone public and now you're having this new waves you got Carl and Victor on the show you've you know you obviously got Matty and
1:59:07
there's others like you know Granola in London and I think these are like people are just going bigger right they're just thinking bigger because they're learning more from these kind of repeat successes and that's coming from all parts of the ecosystem if you're working in a company
1:59:20
out of a company, you're seeing these success stories and I think I think there's a lot more to come personally but having you know boots in the ground and that partnership with our American LPs I find that you know typically America the American firms eventually get in right like every IPO every exit
1:59:36
you'll see you know you win in the you win in the end at the start they're not always comfortable making that bet so I think that's where we can play a role of like kind of making that conviction early and you know going forward >> fantastic >> I'm super bullish on Congratulations >> in the fund. If I was an American
1:59:51
If I was an American multi-stage VC, I would I'd be trying to Yeah.
1:59:56
take down a good piece of the fund and uh yeah, I'm super super excited.
2:00:01
The uh >> companies you back.
2:00:03
>> Thanks so much for hopping on the show. >> Thanks.
2:00:04
Thanks for having us, Scott. Congrats. >> Bye. >> Cheers.
2:00:07
>> I want to pull up this post by Sherwood.
2:00:10
Sherwood says, "May I suggest a different tagline? You can feel the diff.
2:00:14
Posting an image of a graphite billboard."
2:00:17
Graphite's of course a sponsor on this show.
2:00:18
Uh, and the uh and the the the billboard is like not even using all the billboard space.
2:00:24
It's so over and minus and then plus is we're so back.
2:00:29
Uh, >> it's clean though. >> It got 5,000 likes.
2:00:31
And this is the interesting long tale of uh of less flashy out ofome ads that wind up still going viral. That's the benefit.
2:00:39
That's why you got to get on adquick. com.
2:00:40
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2:00:51
>> Do we have our next guest?
2:00:52
>> We have our next guest.
2:00:52
You can see him right there on the on the big. >> There we go. >> Welcome to the show.
2:00:59
>> How are you doing Jim? Good to meet you. >> Hello John. Hello Yord.
2:01:01
Uh doing very well over here. How about yourselves?
2:01:04
>> We're doing fantastically today.
2:01:04
Uh bit of crazy day with Sora too taking over the news.
2:01:09
Uh so we spent a lot of time talking about that.
2:01:11
But what's new in your world? >> Yeah.
2:01:14
Well, uh, we raised a series B, which is of course the big news in our world over here. And >> how much founder? >> Yeah.
2:01:20
So, we raised bit north of $50 million to build new AI agents for AI factories.
2:01:26
>> AI agents for AI factories. Let's go.
2:01:30
We've been waiting for this. What does that mean? >> Yes.
2:01:32
Jensen says AI factory is a token factory. It's just a data center.
2:01:34
Or do you mean AI factory as there's robots walking around making iPhone cases or something like that? >> Yeah.
2:01:41
Now, we we mean it in the Jensen sense, right?
2:01:43
So purpose-built mega scale data centers that exist to convert electricity into tokens, right?
2:01:49
They're they're they exist to generate intelligence. That's what it means.
2:01:53
So concretely, we make AI agents that are capable of autonomously operating and optimizing physical mission critical infrastructure.
2:02:04
>> What are the top things that kind of break when you're running a large data center that normally a human has to step into?
2:02:09
Normally it's time consuming.
2:02:09
Now they're leveraging an AI agent to maybe just work while they sleep or kick off a, you know, a a problem solution so they can have the agent go and work and solve some of the problem for them.
2:02:22
Uh what's the what are some examples of like problems that you're solving concretely? >> Yeah. Yeah.
2:02:29
So you have to pardon me if I get a little bit nerdy.
2:02:31
I'm I'm a mechanical engineer by >> get nerdier. Go to town. >> Yeah.
2:02:37
So I think one of the the the important things to realize is that AI factories today look nothing like traditional data centers, right?
2:02:42
Like when I started in the industry, you know, I joined a much smaller Google back in 2010, right?
2:02:48
And our concept of a large data center were these 30 megawatt modular data centers.
2:02:52
And at the time we thought to ourselves, who's ever going to use 30 megawatts of compute, right?
2:02:57
And now obviously the industry has changed a lot.
2:02:59
Now we talk about gigawatt scale data centers, right?
2:03:03
Purpose-built for AI workloads, i. e. AI factories.
2:03:04
The most important thing to realize about AI factories is that they're orders of magnitude more complex.
2:03:10
There's a lot of stuff in there to orchestrate.
2:03:12
A lot of pumps, a lot of chillers, a lot of liquid cooling CDUs, right?
2:03:17
And they have very nonlinear interactions with each other.
2:03:19
So what our AI agents do is they have a global view of everything that's happening across AI factory.
2:03:24
They can absorb tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands of sensor trends in real time and they act like a general on the battlefield, right?
2:03:32
They're issuing AI generated command signals that are sent to the local control system for automatic implementation execution. Right?
2:03:38
So it's really what we would call AI enabled supervisory control, right?
2:03:43
For these very large AI factories, >> where do you think the So if you're doing the orchestration and management, where is the uh physical work going to come from?
2:03:56
Is that being met by, you know, somebody that's just on call in a data center today?
2:04:00
Do you think that robots will eventually do that work?
2:04:03
Data centers are great and that they're sort of a flat controlled environment.
2:04:08
It's kind of a a good setup for, you know, not necessarily a humanoid robot, but just a robot on wheels that can go around and and make adjustments.
2:04:14
Um but but what's your kind of vision for um once your agents decide, you know, what needs to be done within their system?
2:04:22
If it can't be done purely with software, how does it get done physically? >> Yeah, totally. It's a good question.
2:04:27
So, you know, to be very clear, DI agents are not capable of replacing like the physical labor that needs to happen.
2:04:34
So, things like turning wrenches, right?
2:04:38
Taking a chiller offline, cleaning it, that's stuff that, you know, you need humans for today, right?
2:04:41
Maybe eventually we'll see robots, right?
2:04:44
Taking care of that sort of stuff.
2:04:44
But what we do is more of the the software level orchestration of all the of all the uh equipment, especially the mechanical cooling systems, right?
2:04:53
Um that happen in these large AI factories.
2:04:57
Uh but I think you know one of the important things to also rec you know recognize is that the industry is growing so rapidly right now that there is just a massive massive massive shortage of skilled labor you know expertise in the industry right Jensen talks about how like electricians and plumbers are going to be two of the
2:05:15
hottest trades moving forward because of the scale of the AI factory buildout in the industry that I come from you know you see a lot of folks with white hair and you don't see a lot of folks our age in the industry right so there is a massive shortage a lot of people retiring, they're taking knowledge with them. Our hope is that these AI agents
2:05:28
Our hope is that these AI agents in addition to providing optimal functionality to these AI factories can also augment the labor force, right?
2:05:35
We we communicate our AI agents as virtual plant operators, right?
2:05:39
They're virtual members of the operation staff.
2:05:41
You can't see them or hear them, but just like me, they're permanently working from home, right, and doing a lot of stuff in the background.
2:05:48
Can you explain to me what the software stack looks like for all the different pieces of a data center?
2:05:58
Like uh we we've talked to a lot of uh folks who are building software for traditional manufacturing and they talk about uh Seammens has a control system that has some sort of archaic API and then they write uh you know a wrapper for that API and then they can create a dashboard or they might be able to trigger some things on that.
2:06:16
Do do does a chiller have an API that can be accessed over Ethernet or something like how do all these systems tie together? How open is it?
2:06:26
Like whenever you're building an AI agent, people will comp you to like cursor, but cursor is a fork of VS code an open-source software and then all the code is stored in GitHub, very easy to scrape in and download and work on.
2:06:38
Uh, I imagine some of these tools are either closed source because that's part of the business strategy of that, you know, industrial company or they're just so old that they haven't gotten around to actually writing an API.
2:06:51
So, walk me through all that. >> Yeah. Yeah.
2:06:53
It's it's a great question.
2:06:55
So, you know, frankly, the the data center industry hasn't seen a lot of innovation a really long time, right?
2:07:01
Until Nvidia came out with, you know, the latest generation of chips.
2:07:03
And now all of a sudden, right, there's real innovation, you know, real creativity in the data center industry again.
2:07:09
Before is really just copy and pasting the same old stuff over and over again, right?
2:07:12
A large part of that is the closed ecosystem effect that you were just describing, right?
2:07:18
If you look at what the traditional incumbents are doing like the seammens, the shide electrics, whatever, right?
2:07:23
Um, you know, yes, right?
2:07:25
There are protocols that exist like Modbus or you know or opcua, MQTT, whatever protocols that exist that act as the APIs right that enable these uh uh large mechanical equipment to coordinate with each other.
2:07:39
However, that tends to exist within a walled garden.
2:07:42
So each of these major automation vendors, right, like the Schneider Electrics of the world, they make it very difficult for you to integrate, right?
2:07:49
There's no such thing as, you know, an an easy way for third parties to access the data and analytics that are coming off of these mission critical systems.
2:07:56
So, a large part of what we do is integrating with a large variety of these building management systems or these SCADA systems to ingest that data and make intelligent decisions off of it.
2:08:08
>> This seems like something that you can't just pick up from a couple Google searches.
2:08:13
Like, what were you doing before?
2:08:14
How did you actually learn that this problem existed?
2:08:15
How did you get up to speed on all these different systems?
2:08:20
>> Yeah, so uh in 2010 I was a brighteyed and bushy tailed college grad joining Google.
2:08:25
And back then Google was still like small enough and young enough that new college grads had outrageous amounts of responsibility, right?
2:08:31
So I was fortunate enough that I actually uh helped design some of Google's first, you know, large cooling systems that go into their data centers. Wow.
2:08:38
Then um in 2013 I became the person responsible for Google's energy efficiency programs for its data centers.
2:08:45
The primary metric is pee or power usage effectiveness.
2:08:48
Back even back then like Google was already consuming billions of dollars a year in electricity.
2:08:54
So it is in our incentive to optimize the energy costs right and that's grown by orders of magnitude since >> then in 2016 something called Alph Go happened.
2:09:04
If you remember that's kind of what made Deine famous.
2:09:05
My uh co-founder Veta was one of the Alph Go engineers.
2:09:08
I saw what happened and I thought to myself, if we can create AI agents that beat the smartest, most intelligent humans at complex games like Go, then surely we can teach these same AI agents to play other games like let's reduce the energy consumption of Google's data science >> management.
2:09:27
>> So yeah, so I reached out to a guy named Mustafa Sullyman who was the co-founder of deep mind. Right. >> Let's go.
2:09:34
>> Chad is loving you by the way.
2:09:34
said, "This guy's cracked. This guy rips. This guy ripped. Everybody loves you.
2:09:37
Thank you for joining the stream."
2:09:41
>> Almost like your entire life was leading up to your moment. >> Overnight success.
2:09:46
>> So, it was I mean it was just a cold email.
2:09:48
I was totally not expecting anything of it.
2:09:50
But I pitched this idea of like what if we take Deep Mind's reinforcement learning agents and use them to control big ass infrastructure like Google's data centers. So, we did it. It worked.
2:10:01
It worked surprisingly well.
2:10:03
I actually ended up joining DeepMind for three years.
2:10:04
I I led a business vertical called Deep Mind Energy, right?
2:10:07
We applied reinforcement learning for all sorts of things like commercial building HVC.
2:10:11
Then my co-founders and I realized reinforcement learning is actually really good at industrial scale control and optimization. So we started Fedra.
2:10:22
>> Well, congratulations. What a run.
2:10:22
Very excited for you and uh glad to see you have a nice series B to go.
2:10:28
I got a feeling you you'll be back on the show in not too long.
2:10:33
So, congrats on all the progress. Great to meet you.
2:10:37
>> Have a great rest of your day. >> Thank you very much.
2:10:38
Have an awesome day, you guys.
2:10:40
>> We'll talk to you soon.
2:10:40
Well, if you want to optimize your wrist, head over to getbasel. com.
2:10:46
Your bezel concier is available now to source you any watch on the planet. Seriously, any watch.
2:10:50
We have our next guest from Moon Lake in the TBPN Ultra Dome coming in from the reream waiting room. >> Welcome to the show. How are you doing?
2:11:01
>> Welcome to the stream. >> What's up?
2:11:02
Thanks for >> not too much.
2:11:04
Uh I we we got to be fast about this because I want reactions to all the stuff that's happening in the timeline.
2:11:11
But uh kick us off with an introduction on yourself and the company. >> Yeah, I'm Fannon. I tend to go by sun.
2:11:17
I'm the founder and CEO of Moonlink AI.
2:11:19
We're really spun out of Stanford AI lab.
2:11:21
Um, a couple around six months ago, we started this company really to build AI that can generate real-time interactive content, think simulations and games. >> Yep.
2:11:33
>> So, yeah, I mean, what what are your reactions to Sora 2 vibes?
2:11:35
There's all these different paths that are people are testing. Is it a tool?
2:11:40
Uh, then there's also this uh interesting take about maybe we won't even be consuming it's all reinforcement learning data for robotics.
2:11:49
like how are you viewing the market play out just in AI generated content, video, virtual worlds, all that.
2:11:58
>> Yeah, I think it's very apparent that there's a lot of people going through this space and it's it's really just because the the potential is unbounded, right?
2:12:05
Being able to model the world, let alone any other virtual reality is going to the biggest the next biggest wave in AI, no doubt.
2:12:13
>> Um, now the what we're doing is actually very different.
2:12:17
>> Yeah, I was going to ask video. Yeah, video video.
2:12:19
A lot of people playing an image and video.
2:12:21
We don't we haven't gotten a lot of pitches around creating sort of these interactive media.
2:12:27
Something more like you could imagine a mobile game built on Moon Lake.
2:12:30
Am I am I going in the right direction or >> totally?
2:12:36
Yeah, you can imagine games being built simulations.
2:12:38
And really the main difference >> when it comes to simulations and games compared to videos or images is the interactivity, right?
2:12:46
User outcomes change the trajectory of the world or the game or the environment that you're acting in >> and that's what really differentiates us from videos or image generation companies.
2:12:59
>> How do you think about world? >> Yeah.
2:13:02
How do you think about tool use with uh chat GPT just the knowledge retrieval app? We went from GPT3. 5, it was okay. GPT4 was great.
2:13:10
Then we added tool use and we and there was a moment when it was like just keep scaling it up and it'll learn every the answer to every math equation.
2:13:18
And then the engineers open AI just realized like wait let's just teach it Python and it'll just do the math in Python and then you'll get the right you'll get the right answer and you don't need to memorize everything into the weights of the actual underlying model.
2:13:30
uh and I when I see these uh virtual worlds, these generated worlds, I feel like we are in the GPT3 moment and we haven't we haven't yet given them a database to store your inventory or given them the ability to even a notepad to write down what happened in act one of the game.
2:13:50
How do you think tool use comes into these generative worlds uh in and will it track with what's happened in the chatpt app?
2:14:00
I think tool use is exactly the right paradigm that we should go about thinking about creating virtual worlds.
2:14:06
You know, computer graphics has been around for decades if not like hundreds of years, right?
2:14:12
Um, and we have the tools that enable us to create the highest fidelity virtual worlds already, right?
2:14:22
Look at all the movies, look at GTA, right?
2:14:24
It's just that these things are hugely expensive and manual to create today.
2:14:29
Like GTA costs $2 billion to de develop, right?
2:14:34
>> Um so really what we believe is that we should use reasoning models to reason about the representation, the tools to use, the models to use and consolidate all these things into a platform that allows anybody to be able to vibe code their interactive worlds. Yeah. Right.
2:14:52
These are the things that are historically just barred by um just complicated tools and and domain expertise.
2:14:59
But it doesn't have to be that way.
2:15:01
>> Do do you think >> do you think uh how how do you feel the legacy game studios have been reacting to the opportunity in generative AI so far? >> Have they been? >> Yeah.
2:15:12
like have they been I I you know I don't follow gaming super closely but for example like the the EI EA take private you could imagine they're they're they start >> huge opportunity for sure >> they they have a lot of IP they could if they're private they could have the potential to take a longer term view on AI and try to reinvent themselves but I'm curious how you view it. >> Yeah.
2:15:33
No, they're all the studios that we talked to are stoked about it. Right.
2:15:36
So, we were actually talking to a team that owns F1 and they were talking to us about the possibility of being able to create like racing games that ghost races with F1 cars in real time, >> right?
2:15:50
And I think what's what the way we should be thinking about this is that what we're building at Moonlake allows things like so many more things to be built or things that are historically cut or just made um impossible due to the time and resource that it entails to create these things, right?
2:16:12
And so really all the studios and um folks that we work with on the gaming side are stoked about what we're building and there a lot of them are you know looking to collaborate with us.
2:16:24
>> What are your what's most rate limiting to you right now?
2:16:26
Is there enough data out there?
2:16:29
Is there enough compute out there?
2:16:31
Is it just do you need to you know just go and have really smart scientists think and think and think and come up with an entirely new uh you know technical paper an algorithmic innovation like what is on your critical path?
2:16:48
>> There are definitely a couple of algorithmic breakthroughs that we are still working on.
2:16:53
We have some of the best scientists here to to work on those problems.
2:16:56
problems. But really even without just like significant breakthrough I'd say the technology today if you just consolidate them with reasoning models >> the upside is already unbounded right look at Roblox it's a $100 a hundred billion dollar business with really more traditional graphics approach >> compared to like all the generative world model techniques
2:17:25
>> that has I don't know if you're familiar with this Ben Thompson take, but he he was saying that like chatbt is so successful that at this point OpenAI could stop training foundation models and it could be clawed under the hood and it would still be a fantastically amazing business because Chacht has won the application layer in knowledge retrieval. It's the app on everyone's
2:17:43
It's the app on everyone's phone, right?
2:17:45
uh like do you see yourself becoming an application layer company staying in a foundation model layer company like doing some sort of blend like how do you see your business developing?
2:17:58
>> Yeah, we are actually an applicational company so we are going to build products that allows anybody to be able to create interactive experiences. >> Yeah. >> Right.
2:18:06
The way we go about thinking about oh whether we're product or model company is really that product is first principle. >> Yep.
2:18:13
But a lot of the times given what we're building is at the frontier, we need to do a little bit more research and some model training in order to power the best product experience. >> Yep.
2:18:24
>> So the analogy I like to make is is cursor, right?
2:18:26
Cursor didn't start off training their own foundation model, but they had their tab completion model.
2:18:30
They had these smaller modules that come together to build to form an amazing product that people are people love, right?
2:18:37
And that's what we're doing.
2:18:39
>> How crazy is the inference cost right now?
2:18:41
It feels like Sam Alman's setting the GPUs on fire with Sora 2.
2:18:43
Uh obviously per token inference cost is declining by a thousandx every couple years or something like that.
2:18:52
But uh for all the demos that I've seen in world generation, uh they've all been somewhat limited.
2:19:01
It hasn't gone super viral.
2:19:01
I haven't seen, oh yeah, there's 100 million DAUs on G3.
2:19:06
It's like Genie 3 isn't even available.
2:19:08
And so uh how how GPU constrained how crazy is it to actually go and uh release one of these things into the wild like and what's the path for you know actually bringing down the cost of inference here. >> Yeah.
2:19:21
So I would say inference is definitely something that we think a lot about and compute is definitely something that we use a lot for.
2:19:27
So if you're a GPU vendor you know I like to talk. >> Okay.
2:19:31
But I would say our unique approach of using code to represent the world provides persistency and it consolidates all the tools such that we can use server u client side compute um to calculate next state of the world. Okay. >> Right.
2:19:49
And that actually allows us to not have to spend a insane amount of compute on just generating the next frame of the world.
2:19:56
And that's because of our unique approach of combining co-gener co-generation models and diffusion models. Right.
2:20:03
The way we're building the way we're building this product is using a representation or a hybrid representation. Yeah.
2:20:12
>> That allows models to choose what representation to use to represent >> this particular problem in this particular environment.
2:20:19
And that actually allows us to be very computationally efficient compared to existing role model companies or video generation companies.
2:20:27
>> Yeah, there's been a ton of push back uh against AI video generation.
2:20:31
Like the reaction to Metavibes on X at least was very negative.
2:20:36
Uh people were pretty amazed by Sora 2, the model, but then there's been a lot of negative takes about Sora the app.
2:20:42
How do you think this will be received once we have a vibes or general availability just an app that anyone can download and start using really early?
2:20:53
Do you think people will be more optimistic about it?
2:20:55
Do you think there'll still be this push back and then you have to get through it somehow? How are you thinking?
2:21:00
My my view is the the viscerally negative reaction that I have to a slop AI video is because of like the character inconsistencies and like something about it just feels like very wrong to look at.
2:21:14
Whereas with Moon Lake, I imagine you can create this like gen, you know, if you generate a a consistent world that's interactive and it's beautiful.
2:21:24
Something like being in a midjourney. Yeah.
2:21:26
>> Prompt >> that I think would be >> it's about the experience the user has when they actually are playing around with it.
2:21:32
And like today, Sora can be entertaining, but still you can have a negative reaction to it. >> Yeah.
2:21:38
>> Whereas I can see this done correctly. >> Yeah.
2:21:40
H how do you think people will react to when this technology broadly probably from you hopefully uh becomes general availability to the point where every Yes, I like it. Bet on yourself.
2:21:51
Um the to the point where it's just an app, anyone can download it and like we're seeing millions of people on board.
2:21:56
What do you think the reaction will be?
2:21:59
>> Oh, I think people will love it, right?
2:22:01
Because what we're doing is not like we're generating the content that people consume.
2:22:05
We're just putting great tools into people's hands >> and allowing them create and craft the the experience and worlds that they desire, right?
2:22:13
And we but we're just making it 10x easier, 10x faster, 10x more accessible.
2:22:19
>> Take us through the round and I also want to hear about the uses, but give us the numbers. What' you raise?
2:22:24
>> Also, is this your first company? >> It is. >> Nice. $28 million seed round.
2:22:27
You're in the big leagues.
2:22:29
Straight to the big leagues. >> Congratulations. Uh yeah. Who did the round? How much was it?
2:22:36
>> Yeah, so we raised 28 million from Ventures, AX Ventures, Nvidia Ventures, and alongside 10 plus unicorn founders and angels and some of the most influential AI researchers, too.
2:22:50
>> We're super grateful for their support and >> I can't wait to see what people build on top of Moon Lake and play around with it.
2:22:56
And uh I'm sure we'll see you back on here soon.
2:22:57
Thank you so much for joining and and congrats on that. >> Congratulations.
2:23:01
>> Thank you for having me. >> Cheers. We'll talk to you soon.
2:23:05
>> Up next, find your happy place.
2:23:05
Book the Wander with inspiring views, hotel, great amenities, dreamy beds, top tier cleaning, and 24/7 concier service.
2:23:12
It's a vacation home, but better.
2:23:14
Uh, you know, I I one day you're going to snap when I cut you off.
2:23:18
I still think it's funny.
2:23:20
I think some people are getting sick of it with the with the ad transitions, but uh we're having fun out here if we have some news.
2:23:25
I have some news in the chat.
2:23:27
Uh they said the the the circle table is growing on them and the horse in the background is growing on them. They say never.
2:23:33
Can we get a can we get a shot of the horse, please? Our beautiful horse. >> This massing it.
2:23:41
This this uh you really have I really have to stand next to the horse to get the scale.
2:23:46
>> Well, uh we have Carl Pay from nothing uh in the reream waiting room.
2:23:50
We'll bring him into the TBPN Ultra Dome >> now and get the update on nothing for this. >> Carl, how you doing? Long time no see. >> Look at this view. >> Looks fantastic. >> Long time no see. It's good to be back.
2:24:03
>> It's great to have you. >> Welcome to the show. Give us the update. Give us the news.
2:24:05
What's the latest in your world?
2:24:09
>> Yeah, there's a lot happening over here.
2:24:10
Uh, last month we just announced a $200 million series A raise. >> Let's go.
2:24:14
>> U, we're very excited about that.
2:24:20
We got Henry on the drums. Uh >> thank you so much. >> Congratulations.
2:24:24
What's uh what was the biggest catalyst for that?
2:24:26
Is that just just growth, adoption, churn?
2:24:28
Is this the AI narrative?
2:24:30
Like what what was the big catalyst?
2:24:34
>> Yeah, I think it's just growth.
2:24:34
Like last time I was on the show, I told you guys that we're approaching a billion dollars in revenue just this year. >> Wow.
2:24:40
Um in the last couple of years we've been really focused on building the foundations because we all know you know making hardware is pretty pretty tough.
2:24:48
There's so many things you got to get right.
2:24:50
So um we created this like smartphones.
2:24:53
It's one of the most difficult products to to make in in hardware and we're seeing a lot of traction in the market.
2:24:59
So, I think this fund raise, it's more about all the traction we have in terms of growth, but also with an eye to where we're going in the future because I think in the next couple of years, we're going to see an explosion of new hardware and software >> products based on all the advancements we're seeing in AI.
2:25:17
>> And uh I think we're just pretty well positioned to this opportunity because on one hand, we're not too small.
2:25:21
Like if you're too small, it's hard to ship like really high quality products.
2:25:25
We are a consumer business, so people actually like real people spend real money on our products.
2:25:33
And we're also not too big, right?
2:25:33
If you're too big, it's kind of you're already super profitable.
2:25:36
It's a public company and it's hard to really um latch on to these new opportunities.
2:25:41
So, I think we're in a sweet spot where we can still move fast and be super creative, but also have the infrastructure that we build from engineering perspective, supply chain perspective, and also go to market perspective.
2:25:52
How quickly are you and the team shipping features and functionality that you just want to try yourself that's maybe not ready for users?
2:26:00
I mean, I I can't imagine there's so many people building an AI that wish that they had unlimited access to their like hardware and could do whatever they wanted, right?
2:26:10
Let's try a new model in there.
2:26:11
Let's try this open source model.
2:26:13
Let's try this new transcription.
2:26:15
>> Yeah, he he demoed that exact feature that I was begging for.
2:26:18
>> And and so I just feel like you guys are Yeah.
2:26:20
have that incredible advantage of owning the full stack.
2:26:26
>> Yeah, we're definitely cooking up a lot of uh products right now and I think you know having built a team that can make phones, making other form factors is um a lot easier.
2:26:35
So, we're going to be shipping our first AI devices >> beginning uh starting next year. >> Let's go.
2:26:42
>> Um but the other really >> What can you give us?
2:26:44
Give us stuff then form fat.
2:26:47
>> Is it larger than a bread box?
2:26:47
Is it bigger than a phone?
2:26:48
Is it smaller than a phone?
2:26:51
>> Well, like you know, we're in a phase for the entire tech industry where we're looking for product market fit for the next form factor. >> Totally.
2:26:59
>> Um, we don't think anybody's going to get it right on the first shot.
2:27:02
So, we're really gearing ourselves up to iterate quickly, take feedback quickly, and ship stuff with great taste.
2:27:08
So I think that's the kind of winning strategy if you don't have uh like products with pre-existing product market fit to uh to build towards.
2:27:20
>> We were at Meta Connect and and and they we heard I heard an interesting take from their head of of hardware devices.
2:27:26
Uh he was saying that he's a big fan of of technology that mimics things that we've been wearing for uh like centuries.
2:27:35
So, he wants to do glasses, a necklace, a chain, a wristband, a watch, a hat, you know, uh, but not try and create something that no one's ever interacted with before.
2:27:45
The exception is obviously the phone.
2:27:47
We weren't really I guess we were carrying around notebooks before the iPad or something.
2:27:50
But do you do you ascribe to that belief that it's easier to bootstrap a new hardware device off of replacing a a ring or replacing a, you know, a hat or something like that?
2:28:01
Do you like that framework?
2:28:04
I do because the product market fit risk and the kind of user education risk drops significantly. >> Yeah.
2:28:11
>> Um but I think the real catalyst to these new devices gaining adoption is actually consumers finding value in them.
2:28:17
And the reason why I believe they will find value in them is over the next couple of years as people find that these new devices with these new sensors can capture more context on them >> then the product will become more personalized and more capable um for each individual.
2:28:33
>> Is that just cameras and audio?
2:28:33
Uh I was laughing myself about uh is is uh smellvision a prerequisite to AGI >> and I don't know if there's any progress on getting sensors, >> but >> it's probably not on the road map for next year. >> Okay. Well, good luck.
2:28:51
Hopefully, you have some We have one guy in R&D, >> Carl P says that entirely against smellvision. >> Okay.
2:29:02
>> Um the other thing I wanted to mention was um our our announcement yesterday.
2:29:06
We announced something called Essential Apps. Mhm.
2:29:09
>> And basically it's a platform where every person, every creative person can just use natural language to type what kind of apps they want on their on their phone >> and then they click deploy and it shows up on their phone on their nothing phone. >> Wow.
2:29:20
>> Um you know >> that's the kind of thing that that how many how many people that are building vibe coding products wish that they had even the the ability to do something like that without having to make it work within Apple's ecosystem.
2:29:33
It's just it's pretty you guys have such an advantage in terms of experimentation.
2:29:40
>> Yeah, that's the fun part about uh owning the full stack.
2:29:42
And today the we just la yesterday we just launched the alpha.
2:29:45
So the capabilities are still quite limited.
2:29:48
But we're already seeing just after 24 hours almost 10,000 people sign up for the weight list.
2:29:54
>> And it's not just like any weight list because you have to pitch your app idea for us to accept you into the weight list.
2:30:00
So >> I'm super excited to see what people build and deploy.
2:30:02
Uh, if you were to build a humanoid robot, would you go with clear plastic so you could see the inards?
2:30:10
And do you think that would be more dystopian or actually more uh more like you'd be humans would be willing to embrace it because it's not pretending to be a human.
2:30:23
I know exactly what it is.
2:30:24
And I think would it get us away from like the uncanny valley of a a humanoid robot that's trying to look like a human and has some sort of skin mask on and it looks kind of creepy versus like if you're just seeing the the the guts that's maybe better. What What do you think?
2:30:40
>> I think it needs to be even friendlier looking because all this new technology is very exciting for us in the tech industry but out in the real world a lot of people are super scared of what's going to come.
2:30:49
So >> it has to be disarming has to look friendly.
2:30:53
There has to be a warm feeling interacting with that technology.
2:30:55
Um, so it should probably like a toy or something.
2:31:00
>> Did you see what Door Dash did this week with Dot?
2:31:02
It's a It's such a cute little robot.
2:31:04
They absolutely crushed it.
2:31:06
>> So, >> I think that's the way to go. >> I love it.
2:31:08
More friendly robots, more friendly creative uh hardware devices.
2:31:14
Very excited for everything you're doing.
2:31:15
Thank you so much for stopping by the TVP.
2:31:18
>> Always great to get the update >> and congratulations on the progress. We'll talk to you soon. Have a good one. Amen.
2:31:23
>> Um, up next we have Shaison from Lava >> coming into the studio with some exciting news.
2:31:29
He's in the reream waiting room.
2:31:30
We will bring him in to the TB pin Ultra Dome right now. Play some sound cues. How you doing? >> Good to see you. It's been too long. Great to catch up.
2:31:40
>> Yeah, I'm >> great to see you.
2:31:43
>> Give us the latest news.
2:31:43
I got to warm this mallet up. >> What you got for us?
2:31:48
Camera is always pretty horrible when I'm on TVPN for some reason. >> Yeah. What's uh Yeah.
2:31:53
We'll we'll we'll get we'll get Ben and the production crew to give you the guide to your first TV.
2:31:59
It's especially rough Carl Pay.
2:31:59
We had a pretty cinematic setup >> wired in.
2:32:03
So, you're in you're in 1980s mode, >> but you're too locked in. You're too locked in.
2:32:07
You know, there's nothing wrong with a laptop call in. We love it. >> Yeah.
2:32:11
I'll have to get something better next time.
2:32:13
Um, so today we announced the race, but even more importantly, we announced the first way for people to earn yield on their USD backed by Bitcoin.
2:32:25
So basically, historically in crypto, you've been able to earn yield on your cash, your stable coins, but you've had to engage, if you really wanted to do it, you had to engage in all these complex crypto financial engineering schemes.
2:32:37
you know, Terra Luna, which was a big blow up that happened a couple years ago, or you have to lend your money on these platforms where the collateral is a basket of altcoins that you know could get they're not as liquid. They're very volatile.
2:32:52
Lava is the first way for you to earn yield on your cash backed only by bitcoin.
2:32:58
So the way it works is you can deposit USD from fiat from stable coins to Lava and you earn yield by Lava then making Bitcoin back loans on the other side of that.
2:33:09
And unlike banks basically this is what banks do with your money, right?
2:33:13
You give them cash, they make loans.
2:33:14
Uh Lava's loans are all over collateralized by Bitcoin.
2:33:17
Bitcoin is the most liquid asset in the world. It trades 247. It's very safe.
2:33:21
Um all loans can be instantly liquidated in the case of default so that you as a lender are always protected and safe.
2:33:29
Uh banks basically take 99.
2:33:31
7% of the returns they get for themselves.
2:33:34
Lava just gives that back to you.
2:33:36
So that's why our yield is so high.
2:33:38
It's double the next best savings account that you can get right now.
2:33:42
Um and the nice thing about Lava is that it's available all around the world.
2:33:46
So even if you're someone in Brazil for example, you can use Lava, get cash and earn 7 and a half% yield on it.
2:33:53
Obviously Lava has a lot of products for Bitcoiners, but this is mostly for people on the other side who have dollars and are not all exposed to Bitcoin, but want to earn a safe um and high return on their dollars.
2:34:08
>> What's uh what's push back?
2:34:08
Have you gotten any push back from from users yet?
2:34:13
yet? I think when people see yield that's higher than the than the than you know the Fed's funds rate they're starting to get a little wary you know >> intuitively when I see 7 and a half% I think 7 and a half% risk I think seven and a half% gain but also seven seven
2:34:30
and a half% risk I feel like risk and and return should be directly correlated in a functioning system but uh how do you think about it >> yeah I mean that's why I'm here there's a lot of education that we need to do and there will a lot of um trust that we'll need to build with users over time, right? So I
2:34:46
So I I don't think that exactly just because it's seven and a half% that means it's a lot more risk than the Fed funds, right?
2:34:53
I think it also shows that on the other side the Bitcoiners are willing to pay a higher yield for borrowing against the Bitcoin in the market.
2:34:58
So fully efficient right now. >> Yeah.
2:35:01
>> Um you know the yield might compress over time as well.
2:35:03
over time as well. yield you know um might but here are some things I can talk about the safety right like one the loan book has never had any losses when you lend your when you deposit your money into cash there's some level of FDIC insurance but if you get past that then you know you're also just taking on
2:35:20
the risk with the bank right the bank is making under collateralized loans with lava you're making fully over collateralized loans double collateralized and because Bitcoin is so liquid as a lender you know that you know the Bitcoin can be sold at any time so that for the cash that you're lending, it will never go underwater. So, there's a lot of things that we're
2:35:37
So, there's a lot of things that we're also going to reveal um release over time that can help people feel way more comfortable with the safety.
2:35:42
So, on one side, we've had a lot of Bitcoiners that recently saw this product that are not all in on Bitcoin. They totally get it.
2:35:51
You know, Bitcoiners have been saying for a long time that the best risk adjusted rate of return you should be able to get on your cash is by lending against Bitcoin.
2:35:59
So for a lot of these people, these are our early adopter user bases.
2:36:03
They've already just been like, you know, we've had a ton of signups.
2:36:06
They've been coming into this product. They already get it.
2:36:07
They already understand the security.
2:36:09
They understand uh Bitcoin's liquidity and how, you know, Bitcoin market structure works, how selling Bitcoin works, how liquidation works.
2:36:15
So they've been really excited because there are Bitcoiners that understand Bitcoin that might have, you know, 60% of their net worth in Bitcoin, but the other 40% in cash.
2:36:24
Um, and it's almost like this like barbell strategy, right?
2:36:26
where your long-term assets are in Bitcoin.
2:36:27
It's like the best long-term savings asset, but then with Lava now, you have this shortterm, you know, liquid way to deposit and earn yield on cash.
2:36:36
Um, and you can always instantly withdraw as well.
2:36:41
So, I think >> is your business Yeah.
2:36:42
I is your business uh helped by a lack of volatility in Bitcoin or are you are you hurt if Bitcoin becomes really volatile?
2:36:54
It's been really stable this year.
2:36:54
feels like it's just kind of hanging out around 110 or so, I think.
2:36:57
Um, and it certainly has felt like a like a lot less volatile time with Bitcoin specifically.
2:37:06
Um, is is is that is that good for your business or does it not really matter?
2:37:11
Walk me through the relationship of volatility to your business?
2:37:15
>> I mean, our business changes in different maybe I can just explain how our business looks in in different worlds of Bitcoin, right?
2:37:20
Right now, I think if Bitcoin were to go down in price over the next, let's say, few months, we actually might see a lot of increased borrow demand because when Bitcoin is down, people don't want to sell their Bitcoin because they're like, "Well, it's kind of down.
2:37:36
I I predict that it will appreciate over time, right?
2:37:39
So, they actually will borrow against their Bitcoin."
2:37:41
And when Bitcoin is up, maybe in a couple of years if Bitcoin really gets to where I think there might be a time where people might actually I mean I'll never sell my Bitcoin.
2:37:52
A lot of our users never want to sell their Bitcoin.
2:37:53
So they'll probably still borrow against their Bitcoin.
2:37:55
But there might be some people who might say let me take some you know let me let me sell some of my Bitcoin.
2:38:02
Then some of those people instead of borrowing against their Bitcoin, they might actually sell their Bitcoin and then maybe even use that extra cash they have and deposit it into this this yield product. Right?
2:38:10
So we've kind of built a system where no matter how you feel about Bitcoin, Lava is a place for you.
2:38:16
You know, if you're if you're more cash heavy, you can use our yield product to earn yield on your cash.
2:38:20
If you're more Bitcoin heavy, you can use Lava to hold your Bitcoin and borrow against it.
2:38:24
So that we have, you know, a feature for both views that people have about the world and about Bitcoin. >> Okay. Anything else, Jordy?
2:38:32
How's uh how's how's kind of the growth of the loan book been overall over the last few m few months?
2:38:41
I know last time we talked it sounded like it was pretty insane.
2:38:45
>> I mean, yeah, it's been growing exponentially and I think over um the next few months we this this next month for us is going to be big.
2:38:51
We're making a big uh loan upgrade as well and lowering rates.
2:38:55
So, anyone who borrows against their Bitcoin today will see a substantial decrease in their interest rate this month >> automatically.
2:39:02
Um, so we're about to release a a big announcement.
2:39:04
Maybe I'll come on back on TVPN for that as well. >> Love it. >> But it's been great.
2:39:09
I think there's been a lot of people who have borrowed against their Bitcoin to uh do a lot of things that I didn't expect.
2:39:15
You know, buy houses, buy cars.
2:39:16
The the home buying use case has been one that I was particularly surprised to see. >> Yeah.
2:39:23
Is there more uh is there a rough way to think about the interest rate and uh over collateralization requirements?
2:39:32
Is there sort of a back of a back of the envelope that you give people who are thinking about onboarding?
2:39:40
>> So I tell people to start their loan with 50% LTV.
2:39:43
So if they're borrowing a million, put up $2 million of Bitcoin. Yeah. Right.
2:39:48
And um with Lava, you will we guarantee you the best rate.
2:39:51
So if you come to Lava, you know you're getting the best rate across any other platform on the market. So >> confident on that.
2:39:58
One thing is if you actually really look at the rates on lava today and kind of consider like capital gains tax to you really have to believe that Bitcoin will just appreciate 5% compounded for it to make more sense for you to borrow against your Bitcoin versus selling your Bitcoin which I think anyone holding Bitcoin uh probably believes it's going to appreciate more than 5% or compounded.
2:40:24
>> That makes a ton of sense.
2:40:24
Well, congratulations on the progress so much for stopping by. We'll talk to you soon. >> Cheers, dude.
2:40:31
>> Have a good rest of your day.
2:40:31
Up next, we have Victor from Synthesia, another AI video generation company.
2:40:40
>> First AI company we've ever spoken to.
2:40:42
>> Yeah, it is the first I've actually seen these uh these ads.
2:40:44
Uh the Synthesia is the world's largest AI video platform for the enterprise.
2:40:50
And so we'll see how this is all taking shape.
2:40:52
Welcome to the show, Victor. How are you doing? >> What's going on? I'm very good, guys. How are you? >> I'm great.
2:41:01
Uh why don't you kick us off with an introduction on yourself, the business, kind of uh give us a lay of the land as it stands now? >> Sure. Yeah. I'm Victor.
2:41:10
I'm one of the co-founders and and CEO of Cesia.
2:41:12
Um started the company in 2017, so it's kind of a while back before any of this stuff actually works.
2:41:18
And uh we kind of endured three or four.
2:41:20
Yeah, >> we endured three or four years of uh of of pretty painful just like sitting in the proverbial garage trying to make this stuff work.
2:41:29
And in 2020, we got the first company to launch avatars as a technology, right?
2:41:32
Which essentially is >> technology that allows you to create talking head style videos like you're kind of watching right now.
2:41:37
But instead of recording it to camera with a microphone, etc.
2:41:40
, you simply just type out the script and we generate an AI video of someone saying that. Right.
2:41:46
Back in 2017, everything kind of started with the idea of like creating Hollywood films on laptops and going much more down the kind of creative route of, you know, just like you can publish and write a book from your bedroom.
2:41:54
You should be able to do the same thing with Hollywood films. Yep.
2:41:58
>> Since um since the founding of the company, you know, and kind of where we are today, we kind of took a fork away from that and essentially went into enterprise knowledge.
2:42:06
>> So, what we figured was that >> let's give it up for enterprise knowledge.
2:42:09
>> Thank you for >> they tried to the big Hollywood the creative they tried to pull you.
2:42:12
They tried to pull you in. You said no. I am boiled to sex. I love it.
2:42:18
>> I I grew up dreaming about working cross functionally and making videos for enterprise. >> Let's go. >> Hit that. Gone.
2:42:31
>> The whole team's fired up. >> Fired up. >> Love it.
2:42:34
>> Making corporate videos for employee train.
2:42:37
That's why we do this show. Thank you so much.
2:42:39
>> And it's I mean it's just really smart, right? It's sense.
2:42:40
I is clearly good enough to make this form of video and clearly not good enough to oneshot, you know, feature films or even most often >> even 8second video.
2:42:52
>> 8second video is struggling. >> Yeah. Um, wait.
2:42:53
So, uh, sorry, Jordy, do you have stuff or you you >> Yeah.
2:42:57
I mean, I I I I wanted to jump in briefly because we we spent the first uh half of today's show talking about Sora, kind of reacting to it.
2:43:03
I thought it was a great product for entertainment purposes, right? Cameo functionality.
2:43:10
Everything's very memeable, but something about when you're going in the fe going through the feed, it it's it's kind of hard to look at the videos like I have this like very negative reaction.
2:43:21
Just something about these these videos. >> Uncanny Valley.
2:43:26
>> Yeah, that and then and then the distortions and character inconsistencies is is still rough to look at.
2:43:31
I'm curious how you guys >> specific thing.
2:43:33
It's still there's a vibe or feels off.
2:43:34
And so you guys have somewhat of a cap I I'm assuming a lot of the use cases you have somewhat of a captive audience, people that need to watch videos to learn about their role and their companies and things like that, >> but still you want to avoid people watching watching the videos that you guys generate and having that sort of negative reaction of, oh, this is AI, right?
2:43:53
So how do you think about avoiding that?
2:43:55
What what what makes that possible?
2:44:00
>> I think there's fundamentally like two types of video, right?
2:44:02
this kind of video you watch because you want to.
2:44:04
And this is mostly stuff you'll find in feeds.
2:44:07
So like when you're scrolling Tik Tok, you're on Netflix, you're selecting like what movie to rent, whatever, right?
2:44:12
That's something you actively choose to do.
2:44:13
Um, and generally you have like a lot of choice, right?
2:44:16
Like you could watch like a thousand different action films, but you choose to watch this exact one.
2:44:20
And I think as to your point before, I I think AI will be a huge part in creating lots of this content in the future, but it still feels like the most the reason people mostly watch this stuff today is because it's fun, right? It's novel. It's cool. It's AI. It's kind of weird.
2:44:31
It's not because it's necessarily like amazing content yet. At least 99. 9% of it.
2:44:38
There's still some good content out there.
2:44:39
I think >> the space we operate in is much more around knowledge, you know, it's not really around creating storytelling content. It's not advertisements.
2:44:44
It's generally content that you wouldn't comp it's not content that competes for your attention, right?
2:44:50
It's content that's very specific and helps teach you something.
2:44:53
That could be product marketing as a company, right?
2:44:55
You want to teach your pro your prospects why your product is better than the competitions.
2:45:00
There's only that one video to watch, right?
2:45:02
And the reason people create these videos is because it's better than text.
2:45:05
So the I think on the first category of videos, you're generally competing against like high quality video recorded with cameras and people who really know what they're doing.
2:45:13
H I think the thing we really uncovered back in 2020 when we started building towards the enterprise was that what we're actually replacing is text or slide decks.
2:45:21
>> And in 2025, most people, especially your average consumer, want to watch and listen to that content. They don't want to read.
2:45:28
And for some people, probably other people listening to this podcast, like I'd much rather prefer to like read a page of text and watch an AI generated video.
2:45:35
But it turns out that that's not the preference for most people, right?
2:45:38
Um, when people have a problem with their bank and they're trying to figure out like how to do something, they don't want to read a long page of text.
2:45:43
If they're trying to figure out how their mortgage works, how much they have to pay in their mortgage, they don't want to read a whole page of text.
2:45:47
They'd much rather watch a video.
2:45:48
And so what we're going down, the path we're going down is just much more around like knowledge video, right?
2:45:54
It's it's much more of like replacing text with video than it's about replacing video with AI video.
2:46:01
And that's a really really big difference where I think you know when you look at Sara Runway, a lot of these other models, they're much more competing to actually replace like real video with with AI video.
2:46:09
And um I think that's also a big market.
2:46:12
It's it's it's super exciting, but we think that there's a much much bigger market actually in in enterprise knowledge and and and turn that into video.
2:46:19
And with that, I should also say I think a lot of the talk around AI video is always very much about the models, right?
2:46:24
That's the AI hype at the moment is like there's a new model every second week.
2:46:28
That's that's even more impressive than the other one.
2:46:32
And that's awesome, right?
2:46:33
That's a big component of course of making these technologies work.
2:46:35
But I think we have this mantra internally called utility over novelty, which really is about like, you know, it's it's not about cool demos, it's about bringing value to the customer.
2:46:42
And when you think about why do you make a video, the actual generation of the pixels is a part of that, but it's a smaller part of a much bigger process. Right?
2:46:51
So what we've been doing over the last 5 years is really building out a workflow.
2:46:56
>> We help replace the camera with the AI models, but we also give you a kind of a Canva PowerPoint style editor to finalize your video.
2:47:02
We enable someone who's a PowerPoint user, not an Adobe user, to to make their own video collaboration platform.
2:47:08
It's a content management system.
2:47:09
It's a translation platform.
2:47:11
We have our own video player that's made to work with AI video.
2:47:13
And so for us, it's always been about building for the entire workflow of like someone has an idea or some piece of knowledge that they want to communicate to an end consumer.
2:47:21
How do we make that entire process as frictionless as possible, right?
2:47:25
And I think what it what it just turns out is that yes, the AI models are really important, but there's so many other components of of making a product that that does this workflow really well, right?
2:47:34
I think that that that's what we're much more focused on at Cynthia. >> Very cool.
2:47:39
and uh very impressed that you were able to to crack 90% of the Fortune 100. >> That's remarkable.
2:47:44
Uh last question, we'll let you go.
2:47:46
Um do you see yourself as being a foundation model company and an application layer company over the long term or is there a world where you uh partner with the foundation model companies to let them you know suck up all the capex to generate frontier models? Do you already do that?
2:48:05
How do you think about the the the shape of the business long term? >> For sure.
2:48:12
I mean, we try to be very intentional about like what kind of company we're building. Yeah.
2:48:15
>> And I think every company should be and I think it's increasingly clear that competing on the foundation model level is very difficult unless you raise a ton of money.
2:48:25
>> H you hire extremely expensive people.
2:48:28
And I think that's just a game that very few companies can play, right?
2:48:29
We still train our own models.
2:48:30
I think there's a I think there's lots of use cases where that still makes sense for us.
2:48:34
It's again if you work backwards from what are people trying to do with our models, right?
2:48:38
It's not just like an 8-second clip for example, it's not very useful.
2:48:42
It's also not very useful that the identity doesn't gets preserved across multiple clips.
2:48:45
There's a lot of these like asterisks that you don't see when you watch the cool demo videos of these new models that that are coming out.
2:48:50
Um, but we just started also aggregating other people's models in.
2:48:53
So that both means you can just use, you know, V3 inside the platform if you want to create content that's outside of what an avatar model can do.
2:48:59
We're also beginning to chain these models together in different ways.
2:49:03
We can create a roll and b- roll do lots of cool things with with these models, right?
2:49:07
But, you know, LLM is a huge part of our platform as well.
2:49:10
We have a co-pilot product, help you write the scripts, put together the design, the visual.
2:49:13
So, we we train models when we think it makes sense and we think that it gives us a competitive advantage, but you know, we've definitely also aggregated the market and to the extent that we can avoid having to do massive training runs, I think that's the only rational choice to to to do for for a company like us.
2:49:30
>> That makes perfect sense.
2:49:30
Well, thank you so much for taking the time to stop by the TV.
2:49:34
>> Congratulations on the overnight success.
2:49:36
>> We'll talk to you soon. >> Success. >> Have a good one. >> Thanks, guys. >> Cheers, Victor.
2:49:40
>> Our next guests are already in the reream waiting room.
2:49:42
We'll bring in William and Dogus from Periodic Labs.
2:49:44
I hope I'm pronouncing that correctly. Welcome to the show. How are you doing? >> Hey, good. Thanks for having us. Appreciate it. >> Fantastic.
2:49:54
>> We have been so excited for this.
2:49:54
This feels like the antidote to uh the timeline today. Yes.
2:50:00
So uh yeah, >> there's a lot of negativity about certain AI products.
2:50:04
Uh why >> a lot of positivity about periodic >> what you're building. >> Yeah.
2:50:10
I mean I mean first of all that that's very important technology too.
2:50:11
So like >> don't want to like pile on the hate over there. Totally. >> Yeah. >> Yeah.
2:50:18
I mean we we've talked about we've talked about the good and the bad.
2:50:20
The good is that it's it's it's a very it's very entertaining outputs.
2:50:23
There's logical business reasons why you would do it.
2:50:27
Clearly, there's demand >> economic flywheels and yes, world models for training robotics, training, you know, who knows, maybe a robotic surgeon in a decade will be trained on uh AI video in some way.
2:50:37
>> But anyways, let's talk about you guys.
2:50:39
Quick intros on yourselves and then the company. >> That'd be great.
2:50:43
>> Hey guys, my name is D.
2:50:43
Um I have a background in using machine learning to study physics and after my PhD I joined Google to do deep learning research and that's where Liam and I met.
2:50:54
So that was u eight years ago >> and at Google I did some deep learning research but I continued to do my PhD passion to kind of move all the advances from deep learning into solid state physics.
2:51:07
And then in 2020, I actually started the team to just focus on material science because I felt like LLMs were getting really good and we could probably really benefit from porting these advances uh to the physical R&D.
2:51:20
And then I've been uh doing that until you know six months ago when Liam and I left our jobs and started this company. >> Amazing. >> Yeah. And uh I go by Liam.
2:51:30
Uh I have a physics background academically.
2:51:33
Spent many years at Google Brain.
2:51:35
worked on a mix of generative models, reinforcement learning and created some of the first trillion parameter neural nets.
2:51:40
These are sparse models um really fun collaborations with Jeff Dean, Nome Shazir and others.
2:51:48
>> Then in late 2022 uh went to OpenAI and a group of us took precursor chat products and we turned that into chat GPT.
2:51:56
Um like I've told many many people it was legitimately a low-key research preview.
2:52:02
Uh I mean there's like the prior up to that point was there had been no successful chatbot. Yeah.
2:52:07
So there was a poll um as to how many people would use this thing and people were guessing numbers like 10,000 50,000 someone's like oh maybe a million people will use chatbt which we exceeded in like a week.
2:52:19
Um, and I mean reflecting back on that, I think obviously there's good luck, good timing, but also boring things done really well.
2:52:27
Like we're really focused on uh training details, data, evals.
2:52:31
Um, there was no novelty to it.
2:52:35
Like ultimately people have been building chat bots for many decades, but just crossed a critical boundary.
2:52:39
Um, yeah, and so left six months ago to start periodic.
2:52:44
What do you think of that gu idea of you just need to like generate random ideas and look at connections between them to find scientific insight?
2:52:54
Do you think there's anything there?
2:52:56
Is that directionally correct?
2:52:58
Is that a path that people will go down?
2:53:00
Are you going down that path at all?
2:53:02
>> I mean, I think it's incredibly promising.
2:53:04
Like I think linking these desperate ideas is really promising.
2:53:08
However, unless you actually have experiment in the loop, you're just sort of thinking. Sure.
2:53:14
>> So you can imagine like hey here's a a really promising thing to try but as every scientist know it's like until you actually take that idea into like to try it to act you're really no further along to like building up a scientific understanding.
2:53:27
So for periodic we're it's that's our opinion which is we need to have experiment in the loop. That's super key.
2:53:36
>> There's so many different experiments.
2:53:38
Uh are you selecting for a few different environments?
2:53:41
you're going to get a large hydron collider or a wet lab like the science is very broad.
2:53:46
So have you narrowed it down at all?
2:53:49
>> So one way of thinking about it is you know the llams today are really good at math and logic. >> Yeah.
2:53:55
>> So the next obvious frontier is theoretical physics. >> Sure.
2:53:59
>> And there are different energy skills of theoretical physics but we wanted to take the part that is very relevant to human life which is quantum mechanics you know shinger's equation.
2:54:07
So this affects all the inorganic materials, organic molecules, uh drugs.
2:54:12
Um so we're starting at the level where we're just designing how atoms come together and how their properties can be utilized in devices.
2:54:23
>> Just start with the simple stuff. Just >> uh yeah.
2:54:28
So so yeah, just drilling in deeper.
2:54:30
deeper. What does what does success look like for you guys as a team over the next even even you know I can imagine the five year what success looks like 5 years 10 years right these sort of massive ambition uh how do you how do you sort of make make uh you know immediate progress now that you guys are
2:54:50
heavily funded and and have the resources to really move on on these opportunities >> I think you can kind of describe it along technical and commercial goals from technical goals The highest level way to describe it is have a system that can intentionally design the world around us. Um so right
2:55:07
Um so right now we've built systems that understand the internet.
2:55:12
They have been trained on math and code.
2:55:14
We want to take these same type of techniques and build system that can uh produce things of like properties of interest.
2:55:22
So you're trying to optimize for a new um material for a semiconductor industry or space company or defense company's looking for something for like you know a new heat shield for a missile or you know anything.
2:55:33
It's like how can we intentionally design the world around us and and that's sort of um a goal.
2:55:37
Um some of our higher risk goals are around novel discoveries that Doge can talk more about as well. >> Yeah.
2:55:47
And even even be before you get into that, like how you know you guys are coming from organizations that were totally okay with years and years and years of just deep research and not worrying about immediate commercial applications.
2:56:01
From you guys with the new company, I'm assuming you're you're open to having much longer kind of commercial timelines and just, you know, basically experimenting, right?
2:56:13
Some of the stuff is unpredictable.
2:56:14
You talked about chat GPT being a research preview and it turned into a hit product.
2:56:19
So yeah, there has to be some you know takeaway from that process.
2:56:25
>> I mean one comment on that is we can basically produce through this technology through experimental data a foundational understanding of physics of chemistry of atoms just the world around us.
2:56:38
And you can sit at different levels of abstraction.
2:56:43
Some some levels might be more kind of like scientific like exploration and others might be more towards advanced engineering, advanced manufacturing, engineering.
2:56:52
And we're going to have both pieces as part of periodic.
2:56:57
So the labs allow us to produce deeper understanding of different like physics, chemistry, material science systems.
2:57:03
And our guidance there is like are we able to produce new discoveries?
2:57:08
Are we able to advance science?
2:57:10
But however that data also gives us a better foundation uh when we're actually working with customers.
2:57:16
So we want to make sure that our labs our prioritization the tools we're teaching our agents do have some grounding in sort of the uh commercial >> commercial. Exactly. Yeah.
2:57:30
Like technology and capital are very intertwined.
2:57:32
It's not like technology doesn't develop in a bubble and we can accelerate science maximally when it's like a a very commercially successful enterprise.
2:57:42
>> Yeah, I went on a serious emotional roller coaster with the LK99 saga.
2:57:47
Uh give I and then I uh there was a you know proposed breakthrough in in superconductors, room temperature superconductors.
2:57:54
It was very excited on the internet for a few days.
2:57:56
Uh then it was found not to be such a breakthrough.
2:58:01
Um, and then I kind of fell out of that news cycle and stopped tracking it.
2:58:03
Uh, get me up to speed on where we are on superconductors.
2:58:06
What's at stake if we can have a breakthrough there?
2:58:09
Is that something you're interested in working on?
2:58:12
Do you think that this is actually even a tractable problem that you can make any sort of prediction about where we are in terms of progress there?
2:58:18
I'm super interested in that.
2:58:22
Yeah, you know, we're very excited about superconductors and being able to discover a novel exciting superconductor requires us to do well on many dimensions of physical sciences which we're very excited about.
2:58:33
So, one of these is being able to synthesize materials reliably, being able to characterize materials reliably, being able to predict their properties, design their um kind of defects and for us you know it's also a very uh important scientific goal.
2:58:50
So currently the highest TC superconductor at ambient pressure is about 135 Kelvin >> and under pressure you can make it a lot higher temperature but then it's not very practical because you can't really apply that kind of pressure. >> Yeah.
2:59:05
>> And it's very interesting to wonder you know can we bring that up to 200 Kelvin for example and if we can even before it impacts products I think it teaches us a lot about the universe because it's a very large macroscale quantum property.
2:59:18
Um so you know we have real good characterization tools in the lab and that you know immediately prevents us from an issue like alken 999 because we can actually measure its properties at different temperatures and for us the LLM being able to use the characterization tools and infer the relevant physical insights is crucial.
2:59:39
So we're teaching our LM agents you know the ability to synthesize the abble to characterize the abble to hypothesize the next step.
2:59:45
the next step. Um so it'll be really exciting I think >> and >> yeah lab as part of this is is so key right it's the lab is providing our grading function yeah so again like that that keeps us grounded that makes sure and you know it's sort of a very interesting objective to put a lot of optimization pressure against >> yeah what uh what uh have you
3:00:08
stackranked the impact of super room temperature superconductors or even higher temperature superconductors in terms of the impact I remember people talking about quantum computing, but then I also saw a demo of just some like hoverboards and like skateboards that were using magnets and superconductors to or or super cooled uh magnets to kind of like float. Uh where do you think the
3:00:27
Uh where do you think the impact would be if we get a breakthrough there in the next couple years?
3:00:33
>> I mean the impact is huge like whenever you think about a futuristic technology like fusion. >> Yeah.
3:00:38
um you know low um low uh loss energy transmission, quantum computing as you said >> and even you know when you talk to chip companies like think about the chip design of 10 years from today. Yeah.
3:00:53
>> Superconductors always come up because it's such a important quantum mechanical property but at the same time it's just very easy to understand it lowers your resistance to a point where losses are very low. Yeah.
3:01:03
>> Um, so for us it's probably one of the most impactful things we can do on the solid state physics side.
3:01:10
>> Can you guys give us a white pill like a pump up speech?
3:01:13
I feel like so much of you know that there there's been uh common chatter about you know all this capex all this compute that that we're developing as as a you know a country and a and a and a human race.
3:01:24
A lot of it's obviously going to go to image generation and and memes and things like that and that's fine.
3:01:30
But you guys are doing the thing that that has been promised by you know the the AI community broadly for a long time.
3:01:38
How how excited should people be about the potential?
3:01:44
potential? I think you guys are both very modest, but like talk about talk about the impact in in your words because you know I I I take it it it it means a lot coming from you given that this is your scientific discovery is like you know the entire focus right and
3:02:00
and commercializing it versus you know labs uh historically that are maybe working on some of the same stuff but they're also working on a million other things right they're also working on they could be working on codegen they could be working on uh you know new versions of search, etc. But this is
3:02:13
But this is your guys' whole thing.
3:02:14
Uh, so I'd like to to hear um yeah, just just that that uh optimistic vision of what's possible.
3:02:24
>> I mean, ultimately, science is unbounded.
3:02:26
That's one of the biggest drivers of progress for humanity.
3:02:28
It's not like we optimize and we can now match the performance of a human on some task.
3:02:37
It's you're just creating new technology, new abundance by being able to kind of control the physical world around you.
3:02:43
And we think that the technology is at that stage where we've seen incredible things on models from mathematical reasoning, code reasoning, also the ability of some of these agents to start doing like real valuable work, but the world around us still kind of like largely looks the same.
3:02:59
It's like not really moving too quickly.
3:03:01
And I think as the cost of intelligence decreases, Doge and I are thinking the bottleneck increasingly becomes contact with the real world.
3:03:10
Bring data, bring atoms like into this end-to-end system that's going to lead to this new ability to just accelerate scientific progress, accelerate the technology around us.
3:03:22
And I mean it's like the applications of you know scientific developments are are endless right like you know becoming more of a you know uh space traveling society like you know new computation um it's you know it's it's unbounded I think that's what excites us.
3:03:40
>> Yeah like there will be no end to this right like it's not like we can finish science actually the more >> jobs never finished >> exactly so it's a really uh fun place to be because of that. >> I love that. Well, congratulations.
3:03:52
We're gonna ring the gong for you. 300 million.
3:03:56
>> Last last question I have before you guys jump off and uh you you keep it to 30 seconds.
3:04:00
What's your philosophy around building and sharing your guys' work?
3:04:04
We've seen different approaches from the labs.
3:04:05
Thinking machines has been experimenting, sharing some of their progress. SSI been very silent.
3:04:12
Some of the other labs are also, you know, you know, constantly sharing um you know, just just small products, etc.
3:04:18
But how do you guys think you'll approach it given your focus? Yeah.
3:04:22
So, we're building tools in the physics space.
3:04:24
We're building tools in LLM space and we will definitely share whenever it seems like it will enable the community.
3:04:30
We also have an academic grant program where we want to support academic groups that are also passionate about this space.
3:04:36
Uh because we feel like, you know, science is endless.
3:04:38
So, there's so much to do and we'll, you know, do it together. >> Amazing. >> Well, thank you.
3:04:44
>> All guys, thank you so much for coming on breaking it down.
3:04:45
I'm sure we'll have you back on again very soon.
3:04:48
>> We'll talk to you soon. >> Congrats.
3:04:50
Our next guest is in the re room waiting room already.
3:04:52
Uh >> legal ai >> fundraising announcement.
3:04:59
>> Let's bring in Jay from Eve. Jay, how you doing? >> What's happening? >> I'm doing great.
3:05:04
Thanks for having me on, guys. >> Busy week for you. >> Give us the news. Give us an introduction.
3:05:09
Give us an explanation of the company.
3:05:11
Give us an update on the news. >> Absolutely.
3:05:14
And I can't I can't wait for what's coming next.
3:05:16
Oh yeah, >> you know, you know, get that mallet ready. >> But we are Eve.
3:05:21
We're AI for plaintiff law and we just raised $103 million at a billion. >> Boom. There we go. >> Um I >> fantastic.
3:05:33
>> You know, we we've talked to various players in in AI legal.
3:05:35
uh we don't you know follow the the space nearly as close as as probably you know many of the investors do and you do but uh I first time hearing about you guys was yesterday.
3:05:49
Give us the backstory on the company because you're not obviously just coming out of nowhere.
3:05:53
I'm sure you guys have been cooking for a while. >> No, absolutely.
3:05:56
So we we took an unconventional approach which is >> you know we basically took time to understand what plaintiff and defense law means and how they're different.
3:06:04
uh which maybe a lot of people a lot of people don't know.
3:06:10
Uh but plaintiff lawyers, you know, these are the ones that you would typically find fighting on on behalf of individuals, right?
3:06:15
So they typically don't charge billable hours.
3:06:20
They make money when they win for you.
3:06:22
Think labor and employment issues, personal injury issues, you know, family law, things like that.
3:06:28
>> Um on the defense side, you get the nice benefit of retaining a company and kind of cashing it in every year, right?
3:06:32
and then you have to typically they charge by billable hours.
3:06:36
So on the two sides there's very very different business problems and opportunities.
3:06:41
Um on the plaintiff side they care about how do I represent more customers with the best of my ability to win as much as possible for them right either changing conditions or uh money right in civil litigation.
3:06:56
And on the defense side, it's like how do I do more for the client, you know, for the same amount of time or maybe more time and delivering value.
3:07:04
So on the plaintiff side, what we found is there's actually a really good merger between AI and the efficiencies you get from AI and their business model because you're able to go deeper and actually benefit more clients.
3:07:18
>> Is that because you're charging on a value basis, right?
3:07:20
value basis, right? you're taking a fee based on the value that you capture for the client or the or whatever like you know if there sorry the plaintiff if there's a settlement whereas on the defense side you're charging billable hours and you're tech you know there's
3:07:34
some you can do a calculation as a client and say like how much value am I getting do I feel like this is a good deal but it's less of a because it's based on billable hours it's less of a it's less like value based pricing >> yeah you you nailed it right so we we typically charge based on how many clients they represent. So there's a
3:07:51
So there's a very clear alignment of incentives between what we provide for our customers and what they provide for their clients.
3:07:59
So we're kind of >> in plaintiff law they're you're incentivized to use more and more and more and more AI.
3:08:06
So you can have less time to serve each individual client and generate more revenue which is yeah again maybe different than on the on the defense side where it's like oh well I I'm like AI because it makes my job easier but I don't want to be perfectly efficient unless you're just have overwhelming demand.
3:08:27
You nailed it and this is the really cool part about right now is our customers are using this to level the playing field and flip it in a way that's never been happening before. Right.
3:08:37
So, if you think about the average insurance company, they employ so many lawyers.
3:08:40
And when you have a personal injury attorney showing up, it's oftentimes one person in court versus like 10 or 20.
3:08:47
They just have endless resource to run you down, right?
3:08:52
And I mean, you know, typically if insurance paid out, like the industry wouldn't exist at all.
3:08:56
Um, so, you know, there's that's what they're there to equalize and fight for on your behalf.
3:09:02
Um, and what people are doing with Eve is actually using it to now act as though they have a million-dollar attorney backing every single step of the way from intake to resolve resolution of anyone. Right?
3:09:14
So now you can actually do all these complicated legal workflows specific to plaintiff law and we go deeper into these workflows than really any other tool can and deliver that to the high level of bar that you would want it to have as a client, right?
3:09:31
You don't want as a client to worry about how many cases are they working on?
3:09:35
do they have time to spend on me?
3:09:37
Uh, and you know, the law firm has the same problem.
3:09:41
>> How far away are we from just AI on AI just violence in in every case?
3:09:47
It feels it feels like >> Sorry, I I'll let you answer, but I I've heard a story like 10 years ago about uh a law firm that set up a automated system just using not AI, just normal software to run through the line items that they were billing their client on the corporate side, uh and detect what the client would say, hey, we're not paying for that.
3:10:11
We're not paying for your two-hour lunch.
3:10:12
Like, so don't write that in.
3:10:14
And so anyone who was writing their billable hours would know that it got flagged. they'll take it out.
3:10:20
And then the and then the then the other party got software as well to detect what was going to be, you know, maybe debatable in the billing.
3:10:26
And so they did have this like software on software fight in legal specifically, but just at the billing level.
3:10:31
But now we're we're going one layer up.
3:10:32
But I'd love to hear your answer on how it all plays out.
3:10:36
>> You know, this is actually really interesting question and one we're seeing play out live is >> again the value alignment incentives.
3:10:42
So on the plaintiff side, people are using it and they're coming up with tactics because they know the other side has to bill hours. >> Yeah. >> Right.
3:10:51
And the other side doesn't want to really reduce the hours quite yet.
3:10:56
>> So what's happening is, you know, one of the common ways defense slows you down is they kind of start discovery requests and responses.
3:11:02
These >> sometimes take up 48 hours for plaintiff law firms to go fill out >> and our customers using Eve are able to come back and return back right away. Right.
3:11:13
And then the other side is like what w you know what is this going on?
3:11:18
>> Uh and they want to spend the time to uh to respond and that's actually raising the settlement value of firms. >> Mhm.
3:11:25
>> Because you're basically eating into what the lawyers would be charging their clients right on the other side. >> Interesting.
3:11:31
>> What are what are some of the downstream impacts of what you're building?
3:11:34
you know, assume that you assume that you can get to, you know, 50%, you know, or some meaning double-digit percent of of of plaintiff law firms using Eve or comparable software if there is a comparison.
3:11:50
Uh what what are you know, is that going to impact the insurance industry?
3:11:54
Like are they going to have to you know, if if if every uh plaintiff has this super lawyer, you know, what what what are kind of downstream effects? Great question.
3:12:04
There's a few different downstream effects I foresee happening and we're seeing a little bit of this already.
3:12:11
Um, so for example, let's take labor and employment, right?
3:12:15
So think you get fired, harassed, etc.
3:12:18
You're getting representation in in this industry.
3:12:20
Typically a lawyer want to see at least $5,000 in fee before even representing you because again they're doing it for free until they win.
3:12:27
So they're baking that into how they think about it.
3:12:29
And what we're seeing with EVE is actually a lot more proono cases or them going down the value chain to take on cases they otherwise would never have. Right.
3:12:37
And now >> more lawsuits.
3:12:42
>> We're getting more lawsuits. >> Yeah.
3:12:43
So are lawsuits going to go exponential?
3:12:44
Are we going to see exponential?
3:12:46
I mean this would be very American if if we used AI to just 10x the amount of lawsuits annually.
3:12:52
>> But it feels like >> Great great question.
3:12:53
What's interesting and maybe most people don't know this is very few cases actually get to a lawsuit perspective. Y >> right.
3:13:00
So in personal injury about 70% or so of cases actually get resolved before a >> like at the demand letter stage. >> Exactly.
3:13:08
They would get resolved demand letter stage or some form of mediation before >> might even just be like hey yeah like you didn't pay this invoice.
3:13:14
You know we we but we both know that this could turn into a lawsuit very quickly with AI.
3:13:18
So we're just going to settle quicker and we're going to get to like the median outcome where both people are happy.
3:13:25
That's exactly >> because once a lawsuit starts, you know, $700 an hour accounting hours.
3:13:30
>> It's arbitration, right?
3:13:30
Arbitration essentially is like what's the maybe the long-term result of a lot of like these AI battling it out.
3:13:38
>> What's uh give us some numbers.
3:13:38
How I mean you raised it a billion so things uh are seemingly pretty good, but what what kind of traction have you been seeing so far?
3:13:46
seeing so far? How many times have you been >> one of the one of the interesting bits is uh usage as well and we've been fortunate I mean one of the really crazy things about this industry is I was just in a conference probably three weeks ago and I asked this question every year
3:14:03
last year I was there I asked how many people have used AI every day or you know in the last week >> 10 people out of 200 raised their hand this time around personal injury attorneys 90% of them raise their hands >> wow right >> so the amount amount of awareness and traction it's seeing is crazy. But what
3:14:18
But what they've always been scared about is like how do I use it?
3:14:22
And this is kind of the problem we're solving, right?
3:14:24
Because if you're just using chat GPT or Gemini or whatever, you're spending a lot of time fixing things at the end and that's not good enough for lawyers.
3:14:32
They lose trust very quickly. So we had to go >> Yeah.
3:14:36
If you have an associate that just constantly makes every single time they make, you know, one or two mistakes, those associates don't, you know, eventually they get turned out, they get let go, right?
3:14:45
So you want to hold the AI to a >> higher bar. >> Yeah. >> Exactly.
3:14:50
And then like when we hit that, you know, extra nine of accuracy, which I'm sure you two are very familiar with. >> Oh yeah.
3:14:56
>> Our usage and adoption rate kind of blew up, right?
3:14:59
So we went from >> I think around 13 customers or so start of last year to now more than 450.
3:15:02
I think we're approaching 500 now. >> That's good.
3:15:07
Um and and uh you know dollar signs are increasing very rapidly as well which is helps us invest even more behind R&D which I'm super excited about.
3:15:18
>> The cognition team just rewrote all of Devon on the back of uh Claude 4. 5.
3:15:20
Are you in a similar world where a where a new model can cause like a fundamental shift in how you think about building the product?
3:15:31
Are you sort of model agnostic?
3:15:33
uh how closely are you tracking what the foundation labs are doing?
3:15:38
>> This is one of the key decisions we made early on in the architecture is we worked very closely actually funnily enough we were one of the first productionized apps I think on cloud 2 back in the day uh and they actually expanded context window just for us. Wow.
3:15:53
>> So you have multiple modality of increases right.
3:15:56
So model capability gets better.
3:15:58
Y >> context window gets better.
3:15:59
You know, agent functionality gets better.
3:16:00
All of these have a pretty drastic implication on how deep into a workflow can we actually go. >> Yep.
3:16:09
>> And what gets enabled.
3:16:10
>> So somewhere somewhere out there there's a there's a defense attorney who isn't online, not using AI, just doing everything the oldfashioned way, and he's probably just getting his world rocked like month over month.
3:16:21
Like, how did you respond to that in an hour?
3:16:28
>> I was expecting I was expecting that to be >> I was expecting that to be three weeks. >> That's great.
3:16:34
Uh, walk me through this this thesis.
3:16:37
Tell me if I'm right or wrong.
3:16:38
Um, Enthropic's been incredibly focused on the flywheel of code, coding agents.
3:16:44
They're hoovering up tons of data reinforcement learning on top of the the code, developing a really dominant code model.
3:16:50
Uh, OpenAI has been less focused on API, but chatbt is dominant.
3:16:57
I've talked to I bet if you pulled those lawyers, a lot of them are using chatbt.
3:17:00
If they're not on the enterprise plan, Chat GPT and OpenAI are going to be able to train on that data.
3:17:07
And so, you might have a data flywheel that actually makes OpenAI's APIs better for legal work.
3:17:13
Is that a reasonable thesis?
3:17:18
>> Well, I mean, according to the agreements we signed with them, they're not supposed to. Okay.
3:17:20
So, we do >> Well, well, that's because you're on the enterprise plan.
3:17:24
What I'm talking about is like if I a person don't have an agreement with chatbt and I get uh, you know, a contract for an advertiser or something and I just uploaded that to ChatGBT, they're going to train on that.
3:17:36
And and I'm not saying that's your your company.
3:17:38
I'm saying me as an individual, I'm just putting extra data in chatbt.
3:17:42
They're getting more data.
3:17:42
It makes the model better and then you benefit on the API side even though they're not training on your data. >> Yeah.
3:17:50
I think one of the interesting bits for us is we benefit from the general training open all these providers do. >> Yeah.
3:17:57
>> Mostly because actually law is weirdly touches everything. >> Yeah.
3:18:02
>> You know when you get into a lawsuit sometimes it's medical, sometimes it's technology, right?
3:18:06
Sometimes it's like quantum computing or something and these lawyers have to somehow be up to speed on these things, right?
3:18:12
And >> the general training actually really helps.
3:18:16
So that's one part of data flywheel.
3:18:18
There's another part that I don't think people are thinking enough about which is the one we benefit from in how we build Eve which is all these intermediate tasks right are actually not captured by anyone.
3:18:29
not captured by anyone. An example of this is like you actually can't even go Google how do I write a really good you know demand letter for a moving vehicle accident for again state farm or something >> you know it just doesn't exist and what they're doing internally is they're
3:18:45
coming up with multiple artifacts to produce that final output right so everyone has a workflow produce this document this document this document and pull information from these three to make this final document and they've all come up with their own workflows and one of the things that we've been I been
3:19:01
fortunate to do in Eve is we actually allow them to kind of teach Eve to do their workflows kind of like how they teach a new associate or a new hire and then after that point it just follows it you know diligently without fail uh at a high level of bar right this doesn't miss things like a person would because
3:19:20
it finds everything instantly >> um so that's one of the ways in which it's changing and maybe I'll be a little spicy like what I kind of predict will happen here is I actually think these law firms will will basically transform into software companies >> over time, right? So, think about early
3:19:37
So, think about early Amazon or something.
3:19:40
Everyone started, you know, being able to offload their uh hard disk and all these things into APIs.
3:19:49
And what is happening with Eve is now instead of relying purely on human labor to scale, you can start offloading these very crucial tasks that were previously not APIable into EVE, right?
3:19:58
And you can view yourself as now, hey, I'm not just servicing one client one-on-one anymore.
3:20:08
I'm figuring out a way to service everyone that I'm an expert in, right? Right?
3:20:11
So, if I'm an expert in dealing with traumatic brain injuries, I'm going to take on every single traumatic brain injury case and do the best I can for them and be a rock star at it.
3:20:19
And this is like the bene main benefit that software companies benefit from.
3:20:23
They've consolidated their R&D efforts to make a really good product and sell it at, you know, incrementally lower additional cost for a net new customer.
3:20:34
>> I think it's super exciting.
3:20:34
I think the best the best lawyers are uh your friends.
3:20:38
They're expensive friends, right?
3:20:40
But they they help you, you know, they're just they're they're there to think through problems.
3:20:43
And I think that's just going to continue to be I think that's going to continue to be valuable for a long time, especially for the market that's paying for legal services today.
3:20:51
But they're going to be able to be a one person.
3:20:53
You're going to have a one person hund00 million revenue, you know, plaintiff law firm, I imagine, right?
3:21:00
because you just have this mass massive efficiency and one person who's just great at um yeah uh the what what's uh the doctor's you know bedside manners basically like guiding somebody through a you know potentially challenging part of their life.
3:21:13
So >> super bullish on on what you're building.
3:21:18
>> Congratulations >> and uh thanks for breaking it down for us.
3:21:20
Got to come on anytime there's stuff in in law.
3:21:22
This was a fun conversation.
3:21:24
>> We'll talk to you soon. >> Thank you so much. I appreciate it, guys. >> Cheers, Jay. >> Have a great one. >> I want to close out.
3:21:28
But we got to hop on with Taipei soon.
3:21:30
But uh first I want to close out with this video uh from Elena or Elena.
3:21:35
She's introducing Taya AI you'll actually want to wear.
3:21:38
I want to get your reaction to this launch video. >> Another AI wearable.
3:21:49
They said it couldn't be done. >> Jewelry.
3:21:52
>> We worry so much about tomorrow.
3:21:55
>> We forget about today.
3:21:58
It's an aura ring on your neck.
3:21:58
It is remarkable how much you can pack into a ring these days.
3:22:02
I've always >> Is it an or ring though?
3:22:04
Is it actually give you bio? >> No, no, no.
3:22:07
It's not technically an or ring, but it's just the or ring form factor.
3:22:10
It's a ring lindy form factor. People wear necklaces.
3:22:14
>> Uh I haven't seen a >> a device company go after this market at all.
3:22:20
It seems obvious now that you're seeing it.
3:22:22
>> And it I noticed you can turn it on or off.
3:22:23
So it's not just default on recording. is an AI pendant.
3:22:25
It is in the lineage of humane and friend.
3:22:28
com, but it's less about saying mean things to you if you're a journalist.
3:22:34
And instead, it's uh more focused on note-taking and uh remembering things and being an opportunity.
3:22:41
You pull out your phone to make a note in you get lost in the slop feed.
3:22:47
Instead, you can just make a little note and it will remind you to go to this restaurant or that you want to, you know, get pick something up from the grocery store.
3:22:58
>> Joey Brady in the chat says, "I pre-ordered a tie.
3:22:59
I will probably give it to my mom.
3:23:01
It's like Aby's friend thing but actually novel and framed as jewelry."
3:23:05
>> I I imagine this would go Yeah, this they should ship this before Christmas because this would be a great Christmas gift for sure. I agree.
3:23:11
Regardless, >> obviously a more refined Yes.
3:23:14
You can see even at the software layer, it seems like they've done a bit more to not they're not trying they're they're what what I'm not clear on is how much are they trying to be your friend.
3:23:25
Do they care about that at all?
3:23:27
Is it just about function?
3:23:30
>> It does have a human name.
3:23:30
Ta sounds like a name that you could wind up interacting with as a you know an AI friend or AI companion. >> All right.
3:23:39
Fused in the chat says might have to propose with a taya. I don't know about that. settle.
3:23:45
>> I think the >> maybe maybe >> the non IoT device might be Lindy, but uh >> uh I mean it's cool.
3:23:51
I I I think uh we're we we've seen so many shots on goal with the AI devices and uh it's good to see another one.
3:24:01
>> We should work on our own an AI device that's a fullsize lifesize horse.
3:24:08
>> It just has it an entire H100 rack inside of it.
3:24:12
You need a forklift to bring it around.
3:24:15
>> It can inference with GPT5 locally.
3:24:18
Horse cam's looking great.
3:24:20
>> Look how massive this thing is.
3:24:21
>> I was going to say, what about Jordy?
3:24:23
What about a smart cigar that you smoke to the filter and and as you smoke it, it gets less and less compute.
3:24:28
That >> I love this horse so much.
3:24:30
This >> I can't wait for the literal unboxing of the horse.
3:24:34
We need to make more videos.
3:24:36
>> In other news, uh Elon is building Graipedia with XAI.
3:24:39
He says it'll be a massive improvement over Wikipedia.
3:24:43
People have been going back and forth on on how valuable Wikipedia is.
3:24:45
I think the founder of Wikipedia was not a fan of it anymore.
3:24:49
Kind of uh the creation sort of a Frankenstein's monster situation I suppose.
3:24:54
>> Well, I have a little white pill to end the show.
3:24:57
Let's end on a positive note.
3:25:00
Guart says, "Doesn't matter who you are or where you come from.
3:25:02
Crypto provides the opportunity for anyone in the world to make it." True.
3:25:06
And of course, Forbes reported yesterday that Baron Trump is worth 150 million and has made an estimated 89 million from token sales with an additional 2.
3:25:16
3 billion in locked up tokens.
3:25:21
>> Uh so he has been busy. >> Get him on the show. Open it.
3:25:25
>> I uh you know, you remember when people got mad that Hunter was selling his paintings for >> maybe more than they were worth or being on a board here or there?
3:25:32
you know, he's so much more to remove the paintings and just do tokens.
3:25:37
>> Hunter Biden's got to be that he >> didn't didn't get into uh cryptocurrency.
3:25:44
>> O yeah, missed opportunity.
3:25:44
You missed 100% of the tokens you don't launch.
3:25:48
>> They missed out on, you know, Bill, I I don't know. It's hard to imagine.
3:25:50
I I guess Hunter Biden token launched by Hunter Biden would probably >> might moon. Who knows? >> Probably.
3:25:58
>> Be safe out be safe out there.
3:25:59
>> Yeah, be safe out there, everyone.
3:25:59
The chat is asking us to name the horse.
3:26:04
They're also asking for the backstory on the horse.
3:26:06
Uh we'll bring that to you tomorrow.
3:26:08
We can we can do a whole deep dive on equestrianism tomorrow.
3:26:10
We've long been fans of equestrianism.
3:26:13
But we got to hop on with Taipei.
3:26:15
Thank you so much for tuning in.
3:26:17
Leave us five stars in Apple Podcast and Spotify.
3:26:20
And stay safe out there in the trenches, folks. We'll see you tomorrow.
3:26:24
Have a great rest of your day. Goodbye.