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Today is Wednesday, October 15th, 2025.

5:00

We are live from the TBPN, the temple of technology, the fortress of finance, the capital of capital.

5:10

massive collaboration between our first two sponsors.

5:14

Not first two sponsors, but two of our sponsors, Ramp and Reream.

5:19

Ramp is streaming a stunt today.

5:22

We're going to uh talk to uh them.

5:22

We're going to collab later in the show.

5:25

Uh but first, we have to debate uh tech companies. Open AAI.

5:30

We have to we have to debate uh erotic.

5:34

Why don't you introduce OpenAI for anybody that's been living under a data center and may not know >> originally open source artificial intelligence company.

5:44

>> We haven't spent much time talking about them >> focused on uh moving towards AGI.

5:46

Uh but yesterday Sam Alman made waves with a post about uh loosening the content restrictions such that uh users would be able to create text erotica and that put the timeline in turmoil and a lot of people are very upset about it.

6:03

He didn't specifically say text erotica, did he? He just said erotica. >> Okay.

6:08

In the text app, he didn't say Sora. That's right.

6:11

We We should pull up the actual thing of what of what he said.

6:15

>> I think you have to assume that on a long enough time horizon if they're allowing >> Yeah.

6:22

>> erotica in one part of a product of the >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

6:24

No, it's a fair it's a fair thing to read into.

6:25

The exact uh the exact um quote from Sam Alman is in December as we roll out agegating more fully and as part of our treat adult users like adults principle we will allow even more like erotica for verified adults.

6:39

Now it's so funny the top comment on this post is about time chat GBT used to feel like you could a person you could actually talk to then it turned into a compliance spot.

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If it can be made fun again without losing the guard rails, that's a huge win. People don't want chaos.

6:58

It's just authent clearly written by Chad.

7:03

>> Some people are into it.

7:03

Uh but many people are not.

7:06

Uh lots of people having fun on the timeline with some memes. You posted one.

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I guess we're doing porn now and it's AGI AGI porn AGI.

7:13

Uh, >> I just it was it was not that long ago.

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Like the the fair criticism of this announcement is that >> less than a month ago, >> Sam made the point that there he said there's >> possibility in the future that we'd have to choose between free education >> Yep. >> and curing cancer. >> Yep.

7:35

>> And he implied that he didn't want to have to make that decision.

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So that he would need about a trillion dollars. Yeah.

7:39

>> In order to make sure they had enough compute.

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And so to immediately fast follow with uh Sora uh very you know compute intensive um uh feed of AI media fast followed by this announcement which presumably will drive subscriptions.

7:53

It will increase retention.

7:57

>> It will um I think this will be massively popular with women, right?

8:00

I think people generally underestimate how how >> large the market is for >> this type of romantic novel.

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And if you turn that into a chatbased experience, >> it's probably going to be hyper addictive.

8:16

It's probably going to be something a lot of people will happily pay >> real dollars for.

8:20

And the question is is like why why did they have to do this? Right?

8:28

I you can see the business reason for it.

8:32

Uh clearly a lot of people want this, but uh my my immediate reaction was like are is is paid subscription user growth stalling out to the point where they feel like they have to make a decision that's obviously going to be mocked by the entire industry.

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It sort of uh it it it makes it much harder for OpenAI as an organization to continue to frame themselves as or even compute constraint. >> Yeah.

9:04

>> Because if there's unlimited demand on the B2B token side or just like the knowledge retrieval side or the agent to commerce side, uh you start to think about like well wouldn't you just dep prioritize that?

9:16

Like YouTube certainly has.

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YouTube could have at some point said hey you know we're going to go and you know just eat the lunch of every adult content hosting website because we have better infrastructure.

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we have a better broad network and we can age verify people and host all that content and just take 100% of that revenue.

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Basically, they probably could have put all of the adult content hosting sites out of business if they wanted to, >> but they made the choice not to.

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And it felt like that was reasonable because growing.

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Yeah, YouTube was just growing, growing, growing.

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And, you know, yeah, it lost money for a long time, but then it made a ton of money and it just seems like it's been, you know, a choice.

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And I think that my take was that every company has a line where they draw the line. >> Yeah.

10:00

Why did they this this feels desperate?

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>> This is a move that like can you can you imagine the the management team over at OpenAI, the people that we've spoken to?

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Y >> do you think any of those people want to be in the adult entertainment business? >> Seems odd.

10:17

I I think yeah >> we make you know when when Grock did this >> Yeah.

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It's not like they didn't weren't I I don't know if they were directly mocking it, but the industry was broadly embarrassed by XAI leaning so heavily into the sort of AI romantic companions. >> Yep.

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>> They know how people feel about these.

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They know how the industry feels about these. >> Totally. Totally.

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and they still made the decision to come out until they were uh and so what is that and our reaction and our reaction to Grock um you know going into adult content was very much well >> it does seem like they're behind Yeah. Yeah. Exact catch up.

10:57

It it felt like a desperate move, right?

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>> And we and we clocked it as something where well who are they going up against?

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Anthropic Open AI, Google in the foundation model wars.

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What are those companies never going to do? Adult content.

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And so if you can be the biggest, you know, the the the monopolist in that category, you can probably do pretty well.

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And we were trying to estimate is it a 20 billion opportunity?

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Is it a hundred billion dollar opportunity?

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We never thought it was a trillion. >> Yeah.

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And the demand the demand demand is always seemed very obvious.

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It's like I I expect OpenAI to have like my my bull the bull case for XAI doing romant leaning heavily into romantic companions when the other labs didn't want to touch it was that they could probably get to if they really went hard on it >> and they iterated on the product they could probably get to a billion dollar run rate on on romantic companions. Right.

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I think the market is there for that.

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Does it support a $200 billion valuation XAI's current valuation? No.

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They're going to have to do a bunch of other stuff.

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Um but uh but again I just uh you you you get the sense that OpenAI has wanted to be thought of as the Apple of AI.

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You saw their Super Bowl campaign.

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>> Definitely not the Apple AI now. >> Yeah.

12:11

Did you know this Steve Jobs quote in 2010?

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He went on stage uh talking about the iOS app store and he said, "We do believe we have a moral responsibility to keep porn off the iPhone.

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folks who want porn can buy an Android phone.

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That is such an aggressive quote.

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And I don't think of Google as some X-rated organization.

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I think of Google's brand as extremely clean.

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I think of YouTube as they've had little issues and pockets of content moderation issues.

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But in general, I feel like Google has been pretty squeaky clean.

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Yes, you can go and search for adult content and you can find that on Google search, but in general, I feel like the vibe of Google is, hey, we want to be a family-friendly c company.

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Think of us as like a PG or PG-13 brand generally, and there might be some, you know, there might be some R-rated content on YouTube, but we are going to, you know, cordon it off, but we're definitely not playing in the adult content world.

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We're not we're not making any money off of that.

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We're not really running ads against that.

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We're not going to try and figure out how to like fix that fit that into YouTube overall.

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Like it is definitely off in its own world.

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And Google's been happy to just say, "Hey, we're we're we're not a participant in that in that category at all." >> Yeah.

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>> Uh Apple Super, you go back to the to the Super Bowl ad >> that that felt like a crack at, you know, trying to bring that sort of Apple energy and be labeled and get people to think of, okay, >> even even that Euphoria ad with uh with like a really it had had a very like premier prestige brand.

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It was not okay, I'm going to be an adult.

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>> So, and so my framework again is that you know I now I just view OpenAI as an emergent hyperscaler.

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They're going to compete in all the categories that the hyperscalers do. Yeah.

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>> Uh but the the aura for me uh uh this this is like you know minus 10,000 on uh the aura meter for me of of making this move.

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And I think that broadly many people feel the exact same way.

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>> The aura fields areow.

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They're not farming very well. >> Yeah.

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I mean, Anthropic Anthropic comes out of this, you know, the last couple weeks looking like very counterposition to open AI right now. Totally.

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They're getting into a bunch of BS around the regulatory side.

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So, they're getting in the mud over there.

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>> But, >> but they are running a clean a clean operation at least so far.

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Uh, I want to run through the other big tech companies.

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give them MPAA ratings and then you can tell me if you agree with my rating or you think you'd give a different rating.

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So for Apple, they have explicitly said, "We don't put adult content on the iOS app store.

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There will never be an adult website with an app on the iOS store."

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I think of Apple as a PG company.

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Like if I gave my phone to a kid, yeah, they could download Candy Crush or something.

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There's probably some rules, but in general, I think of them as very PG. Do you agree with that? I I agree.

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>> Uh Microsoft, I call them a G rating because LinkedIn basically has no adult content.

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Yeah, they own Xbox and Call of Duty, but in general, they're so professional that uh if you know, if your if your kid is on a Microsoft property, I feel like it's it's extremely safe. It's basically G-rated. What do you think? >> I agree.

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>> Um Google might earn a PG-13 rating because of Google or because of YouTube.

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There are some videos that aren't appropriate for kids out there.

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Like you can show off a gun on YouTube, but you can't monetize that content.

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You can't show how to assemble it.

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Actually, uh the gun YouTubers will cut in between um like if they're like, I'm going to put the gun together now.

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They will cut that out of the video.

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So, doesn't show you how to assemble a gun.

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Um and there is some there's some like mature content.

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Obviously, you can see an R-rated, you know, uh movie trailer or an R-rated edit from a movie.

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Uh but in general, I think of Google as like a PG-13 company.

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What do you >> Yeah, I think that's right.

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Uh, I think that you maybe don't want, you know, a 13-year-old watching like some skitso conspiracy theory content, right?

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Because maybe they're just not Yeah.

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>> at a point in their life where they can kind of really process >> they can be full skitso.

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>> Maybe they want >> they're not ready to get out the red string. >> Yeah.

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Maybe they want to lean in.

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>> Uh, the wild card that I want to debate with you, uh, Amazon.

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Amazon is just a it's a Walmart online.

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You know, it's a store and a cloud hosting company. It feels very clean.

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They have Twitch, which they've been going back and forth with.

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There was the whole like, you know, the hot >> people have been electrocuting dogs on Twitch, right? >> Yes.

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There's been crazy stuff on Twitch, but in general, Twitch has been very aggressive about about uh like banning content that's objectionable, and they've kept adult content off of there.

16:47

The weird thing is in Kindle Direct Publishing, they do publish a lot of erotica that is actually NC17 rated. It is adult content.

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Uh now, they do limit anything that's illegal.

16:56

anything that's illegal. key difference is that that is not Andy Jasse writing you know a little bit it is I I think it is wildly different to say >> you know again we've seen this with streaming platforms like HBO I I knew as a kid don't look at H my parents were

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like just don't >> we're not an HBO family right didn't want me to see you know the the more >> adult leaning uh uh like you know whatever the the R-rated content uh on >> but if you were to if you were package up all of Amazon's views on how they view adult content, uh, kid content and stuff. Would you I would be less I would

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Would you I would be less I would be less Rated than you than Google.

17:37

>> I would be less disappointed in Open AI if they if they're the they let the erotica content be like as part of an app store that we're like other developers were building on top of it. Yeah.

17:50

>> But this is effectively them creating >> Yeah. porn bots, right?

17:55

Because because here, so uh Bobby in the chat asks, "You guys think we should really quote treat adult users like adults?"

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I think that's like a good framework.

18:05

a good framework. The issue is like you they're they're clearly going to start with like text based erotica and then at what point and then once you're it's a slipper slope and then it's like maybe they're doing image generation and then maybe they're doing like they have their stuff happening on Sora and it's like

18:21

>> you just decide as a company like we are going to create porn bots and then you're that that is the path that you choose and it's hard to pull back from that because they're going to have a ton of revenue there's clearly demand for it >> and then >> like you can open up MS Paint and draw a naked person, but it just feels well. You don't you don't put that on

18:39

You don't you don't put that on Microsoft, you know? Right. Right.

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It's like a different thing.

18:43

So, for uh for Amazon, what's your final rating?

18:46

I put them at NC17, but would you put them at R or would you put them at PG-13?

18:50

Do you think that they go further than Google in terms of like rating overall?

18:56

Just what is the most aggressive piece of their empire?

19:01

I feel like the the Kindle direct publishing stuff does put them in a different category than Google.

19:07

A little bit more edgy, let's say.

19:12

>> Doesn't feel that much different to me because they're just platforms that serve content, but they're not in the content creation business, either of them. >> Okay.

19:21

So, you give them a little bit of pass.

19:23

>> OpenAI will be in the business of creating adult content. >> Sure.

19:26

Uh let's go to X, the everything app. Uh everything.

19:29

Does that really mean everything? It certainly has.

19:31

Even back in the day of Twitter, uh there was always adult content on Twitter.

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It was cordoned off and not surfaced in the algorithm and it also has content warnings.

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Even when you just go to a profile that's an adult content, >> the cont the content warning feature, by the way, we we don't we don't use that enough.

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It's it's like the best meme.

19:51

>> It gets Yeah, it gets highly abused.

19:51

Uh but but but I do think that uh to the credit of the exineers and the Twitter engineers before them, um I have not seen a lot of adult content just randomly pop into my feed.

20:03

I get much more slop of like, have you heard of uh have you ever heard of Mark Zuckerberg?

20:09

Like that's the type of like junk that I get in my feed.

20:11

I don't >> Yeah, I don't get a lot of just like, wow, that's just actually adult content.

20:17

Uh and so but but still I think like as a platform Twitter for years has always been more aggressive than YouTube in terms of the type of content that they allow and I would put that in the >> NC7 what the the change that's happening now is with Gen AI platforms are going from being >> distributors to creators >> distributors to creators themselves right. >> Yeah. Yeah. That's fair.

20:40

>> Like your product is creating >> explicit content. >> Yeah.

20:44

It's a big question because it's like are they creating it or is the prompter creating it?

20:49

Because if no one prompts it, it won't create it, right? >> If no one uploads it.

20:57

>> Yeah, it's a creative tool. It's a creative tool.

20:59

Yeah, you can make uh you can make that.

21:02

>> It's a new It's a new technology and so and so we need to have like another discussion about it. What about Meta? What about Instagram?

21:09

>> But here's here's a question.

21:09

Is erotica aligned with OpenAI's mission to ensure that artificial general intelligence benefits all of humanity? >> Not particularly.

21:18

Uh there is a steelman from this from Dean Ball. >> Put the hat on.

21:25

>> Uh Dean Ball says, "If you agreed AGI was around the corner and was going to be an extremely capital inensive race defined by infrastructure, you would want to pump your revenue.

21:35

You would want to pump your revenue and and other relevant KPIs rapidly. This is terrible.

21:42

Uh to keep the capex train rolling.

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So yeah, I mean if you want the max the max revenue to underwrite the max capex until you hit AGI, maybe you want every possible dollar.

21:59

You want the max revenue like because every dollar that you get in revenue is 10 in valuation and a hundred in you know debt covenants right like like actual capital accessibility.

22:12

>> No and I think that >> I I imagine that is their internal justification.

22:18

>> You can still tell the team >> we need to do this >> get every dollar possible.

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>> We need to do this so that we can achieve our mission. >> Yeah.

22:26

And there's going to be uh uh some collateral damage.

22:29

There's going to be a generation of of women that are in love with their phones. >> Yeah.

22:34

I mean, I I think the real the real like economic question is the hit to vibes, the negative 10,000 aura points, is that worth paying for the increased revenue that you can fund raise against? Right?

22:48

Like that's the economic calculus that you should be making if you're like purely economically rational actor.

22:51

And Sager and Jetty has a really really good take.

22:55

He quote he quoted your post and said chat GPT turning to porn is proof AGI is never coming.

23:00

They are simply recreating the addictive degenerate centers of the internet.

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Soon it will be ads, porn, gambling odds, every the everything app to deracinate you. Deassinate you. That's a good word. I don't know that one. Uh Nate Silver also.

23:15

I would say it's very easy for Google to make a decision of like we don't allow you to generate adult content in any of our platforms >> because they have 70ish billion of free cash flow that they can finance >> everything Google while they need to play the next five years like very well in order to >> continue to be dominant uh they're not in a position of desperation which feels >> it just feels a little desperate. >> Yeah.

23:50

Nate Silver broke this down.

23:50

He said, "OpenAI's recent actions don't seem to be consistent with a company that believes AGI is right around the corner.

23:58

If you think the singularity is happening in 6 to 24 months, you preserve brand prestige to draw a more sympathetic reaction from regulators and attract slash retain the best talent rather than getting into erotica for verified adults.

24:11

Instead, they're loosening guard rails in a way that will probably raise more revenues and might attract more capital or justify current valuations.

24:19

They might still be an extremely valuable company as the new meta Google, etc.

24:22

, but it feels more like AI is normal technology. It's a good point.

24:27

Um, uh, Arnand Bertrren said, "Someone asked an AI founder two months ago, what's an example of a decision you've made that is best for the world but not best for winning?"

24:39

The founders's reply, "Well, we haven't put a sexbot in our product yet."

24:43

The name of that founder, Sam Alman.

24:45

Uh, which means that according to himself, he just did something that is worse for the world, but best for winning, which is largely the story of the human race, >> but it's going to be better for the world in the long run.

24:56

>> Much much harder when it becomes costly.

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And ironically, this is exactly how AI itself works.

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Reinforcement learning optimizes for reward and avoids what the environment makes expensive.

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Uh so AI does share our deeper human valuable value. Do whatever wins.

25:13

>> Uh same poster or nods also said I don't buy into most of the AI hype but I think a mass her scenario is unfortunately a very high probability.

25:22

It wouldn't surprise me if a very big proportion of my children's generation have AI companions maybe even embodied in humanoid robots at some point.

25:29

In fact that might be one of the single biggest threats AI poses.

25:34

Not these far-fetched Terminator like nightmares, but the irony of us getting extinct because we get quote unquote perfect frictionless love honeyrapping ourselves.

25:46

>> Yeah, it's an odd tradeoff.

25:46

Uh I mean there's uh Pasha in the chat says the porn industry is at $1 billion in revenue per year.

25:55

The reputational risk is not worth the revenue in the industry.

25:58

Uh >> the only thing here Yeah.

25:59

If if you're just understanding the opportunity at as the existing >> you have to add in only fans and stuff, right? >> Yeah.

26:07

That but it's more so it's possible the AI companion market will be thousand times. >> Yeah.

26:13

And this is the story of like every technology is like when you have a new technology you you can actually make it like the the ads market got bigger when Google and Facebook were invented.

26:21

Like just the the overall advertising dollars grew.

26:24

Tyler, what what's your take on this?

26:26

Um, I mean I definitely agree like with Jordy like I I think it's pretty bad but um if you look at Jord's post it's like the meme of the conveyor belt >> and if you look at it's like AGI AGI porn but then it goes back to AGI, right?

26:38

So Jord is implicitly saying that this is on the way to AGI. >> Oh interesting. Yeah. Okay. Okay. >> Be right.

26:44

Maybe if you have a a good understanding of kind of anatomy it can be better for for like your world models. >> Oh yeah.

26:51

We're going to train robots on this, right?

26:52

That's your take on this.

26:54

My my big question is are we going to we have Mark Benny off on the show tomorrow.

26:58

I feel like we got to ask him are we going to see erotica for verified adults within agent force.

27:04

>> We have Zack Pere from Plaid on the show in just a few minutes and I want to know is he going to be doing something in erotica >> helping financial institutions integrate more efficiently.

27:14

Erotica might be on the path if there's just a couple dollars sitting there. Just go get those.

27:19

It'll help you build your core business potentially. Who knows?

27:21

Satrini said, "Recently learned from speaking with an AI engineer that the AI boyfriend market is currently much larger than the AI girlfriend market."

27:29

I was talking to Brandon about this.

27:31

He said that he did some deep dives and did find some uh some men who had a like her rooms of AI girlfriends.

27:38

It does happen, but I still think that uh your assessment is right that uh the AI boyfriend market is much bigger than the AI girlfriend market.

27:45

I would love to know how XAI is doing here.

27:47

They've been live with a product in that category for months now.

27:53

Is does it have traction? Does it have retention? Is it making money?

27:57

Is it profitable on a per token basis? >> Here's the thing.

28:00

Here's why OpenAI has an edge here.

28:02

People loved the personality of 40.

28:03

Like you saw the day that they deprecated 40, the release of five.

28:09

If you looked on Reddit that day, there were people that were >> I've never seen people more mad at a at a product update like ever.

28:16

like people were in love with for personality matters and so >> if they take a personality that people love already and they make it like uh more explicit it's probably you know there was people that were posting on Reddit I just proposed to chat GBT they said yes you know uh so >> anyways >> well before we go into uh the latest open AI numbers from the Financial Times let me tell you Uh, Privy, the wallet infrastructure for every bank.

28:48

Privy makes it easy to build on crypto rail, securely spin up white label wallets, sign transactions, and integrate onchain infrastructure all through one simple API.

28:56

>> Throwback studio said erotic is back on the menu, boys.

29:00

>> Wasteland Capital is breaking it down.

29:02

Uh, Open has 800 million users. 5% are paying.

29:05

That's 40 million paying users.

29:08

13 billion in ARR implies a $325 annual ARPU or 27 per month per paying user.

29:16

70% of revenue from subscriptions. The rest is API.

29:18

Uh $8 billion loss in the first half of the year.

29:22

Probably tw 20 billion run rate loss now.

29:24

So basically spending $3 for each $1 in revenue.

29:31

>> This comment from Daniel.

29:31

They lose money on every token, but they make it up with volume. >> What is that from?

29:35

They lose money on I've heard that like phrase before.

29:37

I don't I can't place it, but uh yeah, it is it is uh it is rough.

29:41

I mean um I mean the bull case for the uh for the uh erotica stuff is you don't need a lot of reasoning tokens to generate it.

29:50

You can totally just oneshot it with uh with a base model.

29:56

What do you think you need? >> I don't know.

29:57

I I think Elon has said um he wants his his waifuss to have, you know, they want them to be the best reasoning models. Yeah. The highest.

30:05

>> It needs to be able to do IMO level math. >> Yeah. >> Yes.

30:08

your AI girlfriend should be able to do uh the International Math Olympiad and uh hopefully solve RKGI one day. We'll see.

30:17

>> Um meanwhile, Anthropic is was at 5 billion of AR in August.

30:21

Uh they're uh this month they're approaching 7 billion projecting $9 billion AR by the end of the year.

30:30

I think this is just annualized run rate because obviously it's you know token based but um they are projecting projecting between 20 and 26 billion of ARR uh of of sort of uh 2026 revenue.

30:43

>> Well, if you want to refocus your AI efforts on something valuable like building software, head over to Cognition.

30:51

They're the makers of Devon.

30:53

Devon is the AI software engineer.

30:53

trust your backlog with your personal AI engineering team and you will live to fight another day. Uh it's official.

31:02

Apple just upgraded the Vision Pro with the M5 chip and dual net band. This is huge.

31:09

It's a pretty minor minor bump, but uh it it shows I mean they haven't completely shoved the project.

31:14

I'm still, you know, waiting for the Vision Pro Air, Vision Air, something that's lighter, something with that the second screen.

31:22

We don't need a second screen, people. Let's take that away.

31:23

Um, so the Vision Pro now runs on the M5 chip, 10 core CPU, GPU, >> to announce these updates and like did you solve any of the reasons that people returned the product? >> Uh, no, they didn't.

31:36

Uh, because they need to make it lighter and they need to make it smaller and they need more media for it. >> Yes.

31:43

Uh, they did uh they did announce a couple uh like >> no one was critiquing the performance. >> Yeah.

31:52

Yeah, >> like it is truly an incredible piece of hardware.

31:54

It's an incredible face computer.

31:57

>> It is >> heing like the way in which like the cost of using it.

32:02

>> They they they are doing new apps, contents, and games.

32:04

There's over a million apps now, 3,000 are built for the vision OS. Wait, what? Oh, wow.

32:10

they so out of a million apps that have been so if you have a like an iPad app you can check a box when you distribute that app and say yeah put it on Apple Vision Pro and it will just appear in the Vision Pro as an iPad app and you can use it the same way that you use the iPad app which is fine.

32:28

Uh but the hope was that there would be this flywheel where people would build apps specifically for Vision OS.

32:33

I cannot believe it's only 3,000.

32:36

That's so few apps for Vision Pro.

32:38

like specifically only 3,000 like the developers really did not show up this time and that is crazy because like anytime there's a new Apple platform like watch everyone's like I got to do a special app because if I'm the first running app on the watch I will have a new flywheel and I'll just get new customers and they're going to push these things and the install base is going to be huge.

32:57

It's Apple >> a buddy of mine used to work at Apple.

33:02

He was so excited when the Apple Vision Pro released.

33:04

I was like, "Okay, you're gonna start like a product studio.

33:06

Just make a bunch of apps and hopefully one of them hits." Yeah.

33:09

The beer started too and then he realized like, "Okay, there's actually nothing here."

33:14

>> It's crazy crazy how slow that takeoff has been.

33:16

Um, one of the things that they're highlighting here is uh is a couple games that you can play on the Vision Pro.

33:22

One of them is Sniper Elite 4.

33:25

It's a great game if you haven't played it.

33:26

Um, and but what's what's interesting is that it it it actually is just a 2D screen that is in the Apple Vision Pro.

33:34

So, you need to like mirror it in from uh a Mac or a console.

33:35

Um, but uh you'll love this.

33:38

The folks behind Sniper Elite 4, do you know their website, Jordy? >> Sniper. com.

33:46

>> Whoa, that's a great domain.

33:49

>> So, let's hear from domain.

33:49

They sniped they sniped the best domain for a sniping based video game. >> Wait, this is funny. Sniper.

33:55

com just redirects to sniper elite. com. They don't even use it. >> Elite. >> Elite. >> Elite behavior.

34:03

Well, if you want to design something for the Apple Vision Pro or maybe for a more popular platform like the new MacBook Pro that has the M5 in it, uh, get on Figma.

34:10

Think bigger, build faster.

34:12

Figma helps designing development teams build great products together.

34:15

You can get started for free.

34:17

Uh, Dimes Square Holdings has a funny little post here.

34:19

Uh, right now, a lot of these skilled engineers are laborers.

34:24

They're literally working 12 to 15 hour days to get data centers built quickly.

34:29

As they as fast as they finish one, they're on the next.

34:31

If I told you the story, you're not going to believe it.

34:34

They're being flown around on PJs to get to the next site.

34:37

Literally, they're packing these guys into PJs and saying one was in North Dakota and he needed to be back in Texas the following week.

34:46

They flew him down there on Sunday in PJs.

34:48

Uh there were probably 10 guys on the plane.

34:51

Some of these stories right now are just wild.

34:53

And the interviewer asks, "When you say PJs, you mean pajamas?"

34:57

pajamas?" And the data center national solutions broker says no private jets >> this comment bro is so broke the >> moging the mogging the allocator who thinks PJ stands for pajamas >> yeah well let me tell you about Vanta

35:17

automate compliance manage risk prove trust continuously VA's trust management platform takes the manual work out of your security and compliance process and replaces it with continuous automation uh you already talked about the mass her scenario. >> Turk says some VC firm should rebrand

35:28

>> Turk says some VC firm should rebrand associates stalking founders at events to forward deployed capitalists. >> It might be good. It's happening today.

35:37

It's happening this week. It's LA tech week. >> What's that?

35:41

>> Uh it is a technology celebration.

35:41

A celebration of technology and business.

35:46

It's right up our wheelhouse.

35:47

>> Have you seen driving around LA?

35:47

Have you seen any of it going on?

35:49

I saw I saw one uh technologist, some business enthusiast uh indulging a little self-driving today. That was pretty cool. >> Interesting. Like driving themselves. >> Yeah. Yeah.

36:01

I I've been hearing a lot about self-driving generally. Yeah.

36:03

So, it was cool to see someone driving themselves. >> Yeah.

36:07

>> Because that's how we think about it.

36:09

>> I'm pretty bullish on on self-driving broadly.

36:11

>> I could see I could see one of the cheekier smaller VC firms giving everyone the Ford deployed capitalist title. I think it'd be funny. We've seen those before.

36:19

Um, Anthropic projects as much as 26 billion in annualized revenue in 2026 sources. That's a lot.

36:28

>> Seems like that's good, right? >> How are they doing?

36:31

How are they How are they projecting that without entering the incredibly lucrative erotica market? What will they be doing?

36:39

>> The code must be generated.

36:41

>> The code, their API must be really on fire. That's uh that's a lot.

36:44

I wonder what uh what OpenAI is projecting for next year.

36:49

Do we do we have any insight into that?

36:51

Because they're at 13 billion run rate, right?

36:53

That was the that was the stat that was shared.

36:55

So 13 billion in ARR, uh I wonder what OpenAI is projecting for next year.

37:01

I mean, if the if the agent commerce stuff comes online in a big way, if the ads product comes online in a big way, like you could definitely see them hitting 30 40 something like that.

37:12

But these numbers are getting big at this point. Like it's it's >> Yeah.

37:16

The other thing with the OpenAI announcement is there didn't they say it's December 1st? >> Yeah.

37:21

There's they're they're kind of like letting the chaos cycle like you know work its way out, letting everyone have their anger and take out before the product's actually updated to allow. >> Yeah.

37:34

Because the the the >> they need to lose the 10,000 aura points so then they can start farming up extra aura points with like some math competition.

37:44

The good thing is that the good thing is that people are going to use this product in private, right?

37:50

They're not going to be sharing.

37:50

They're not going to be like, "Yeah, I had a 7,000 prompt conversation with 40. I'm actually in love." It's amazing.

37:58

>> If they cure cancer on November 30th, you are going to feel so stupid, Jordy.

38:04

>> If they cure cancer on November 30th. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

38:06

Like a real >> And you're Oh, yeah.

38:08

Like >> you look like a real >> You'll look like a bozo. >> A real bozo. >> A bozo.

38:12

That's probably the strategy.

38:15

It's like, let's take the Aura hit to get into adult entertainment.

38:19

>> We'll make it all back in one trade.

38:21

>> Yeah, it really is setting expectations low and then they they can just build back up from here. I don't know.

38:25

Uh well, in some much lighter news, Wander is giving away a $10,000 Wander trip for the craziest vacation rental horror story.

38:36

You can head over to their X account.

38:38

All you need to do is reply or quote that post with your spooky tail.

38:40

I love that spooky is happening during October. >> Spooky is amazing.

38:49

>> And they'll create ghostly videos of the best ones and choose one winner.

38:52

And so they put out a promotional video and I highly recommend you enter this because why not try and get a a $10,000 wander trip for free.

39:00

Of course, you can also go over to wander.

39:02

com, find your happy place, book a wander with inspiring views, hotel grade amenities, dreamy beds, top tier cleaning, 24/7 concier service.

39:09

Uh we're very happy to be supported by Wander.

39:12

>> George Hot is >> blackpilling. >> Mad. >> He is. What do you say? Read it.

39:18

>> Uh blog post from today.

39:18

It's titled Pathetic Losers. I will read it. I want money. I have high TC. I get big comp. I advance in my career.

39:29

I have many business opportunity. I am senior employee. I have many reports. I have big package. I am important. I fly on private jet. I party with model.

39:38

I go to prestigious school.

39:41

I have piece of paper with school logo.

39:44

You can see I am important.

39:46

You can see I have big package. Lol.

39:48

You got laid off from an ad company after spending half your life chasing stuff made up by other men.

39:54

you sought status instead of skill, you are a loser. Get the f out.

39:59

And uh he references uh I'm going to pull up this. >> It's a good message.

40:09

>> Yeah, he's basically calling out the um >> is this is this like a direct subweet of something that just happened?

40:15

It feels like it's just a a general vibe of like anti- status seeking behavior focus.

40:19

I I immediately think of that post where it's where somebody said, "Wow, I went to a dinner last night in San Francisco.

40:31

Everyone had gone to Stanford or Harvard."

40:32

And obviously that post got dunked on.

40:34

So I think that >> a little bit of that.

40:36

>> I think there's already kind of push back against this sort of status seeking culture in tech, but he references >> uh a post on September 13th that he made.

40:46

You heard there was money in tech.

40:48

You heard there was status in tech. You showed up.

40:49

You never cared about technology.

40:51

You cared about enriching yourself.

40:53

You are an entrious piece of And it's time for you to leave.

40:58

But you won't leave willingly. We need to take action.

41:00

Give it all away to everyone for free.

41:02

Then you'll have no reason to be here.

41:04

So, um, Gios is operating on another level and he's pissed off and he's probably going to create free versions of >> he's created free versions of a lot of stuff.

41:18

>> He's going to keep doing it. It's great. I'm a huge supporter.

41:20

Um, easily the most baller email signature I've ever seen. European curator. What? Like art curator.

41:29

Uh, I check emails on Wednesday on Tuesdays at 4 to 6 p. m.

41:32

and Wednesdays at 1 to 6:00 p. m.

41:34

If your matter is timesensitive, please resend your email with urgent in the subject line.

41:41

>> So, the only thing that the only thing that doesn't make sense here is like, okay, so you have notifications on. >> Yeah.

41:48

>> You're just getting email.

41:48

You're getting email notifications.

41:50

>> You're actually checking them constantly.

41:52

>> You're you're watching them all roll in.

41:54

>> What he what this person is saying is like more like I actually go into my email inbox respond to random emails like that aren't urgent at this time.

42:03

>> But I'm not going to open your email if it doesn't say urgent. >> Sure. Sure.

42:06

Uh >> we should try to figure out, hey Tyler, try to figure out this person's email.

42:13

See if they they say it in the comment.

42:15

And let's send them the today's newsletter and just say urgent.

42:19

Uh, Alex Stap says, "It reminds me of this line from Tyler Cowan.

42:22

People in the EU are super wise.

42:24

You have a meal with some sort of French person who works in Brussels. It's very impressive. They're cultured.

42:30

They have wonderful taste.

42:32

They understand all these different countries.

42:33

They know something about Chinese porcelain, and if you live in a world ruled by them, the growth rate would be negative 1%." It's hilarious.

42:42

Uh anyway, if you want to grow your company at more than 1%, get on graphite code review for the age of AI.

42:48

Graphite on helps teams on GitHub ship higher quality software faster and get started for free.

42:53

Uh >> speaking of free, Blake Scho, founder of Boom Supersonic is saying he's living rentree in the Oval Office.

43:00

We really should get pus a bigger model. I'm thinking lifesize.

43:04

Uh talk about the ultimate drop.

43:07

You know, people say, "Oh, I'm going to make a drop.

43:08

I'm going to send something interesting.

43:11

>> How about you make a plane?

43:11

How about you make a plane?

43:12

Make a model of that plane and send it to the White House.

43:15

>> No, just make just >> Oh, just make the actual plane. >> Just make the plane.

43:18

>> Yeah, just make the plane. Um, but yeah. Wow. Really?

43:21

I mean, >> supersonic uh Air Force One would be insane.

43:24

>> I mean, imagine trying to underwrite this at the boom as the boom team.

43:27

They're like, "Yeah, it's like kind of a hassle to make these models and it's kind of expensive.

43:31

Who should we send them to?

43:32

Like, is it ever going to come back to us?

43:34

Is it just like for clout?"

43:36

And then like it winds up in the in the Oval Office like directly inspiring better legislation around uh supersonic aircraft which is very exciting. >> Um oh massive news. Ken Griffin.

43:48

>> Ken Griffin born today October 15th 1968.

43:52

Let's hit the gong for >> Ken.

43:58

He trying to figure out what magazine there's another there's a cover story of of Ken.

44:03

He looks like maybe in his early 30s at this point.

44:05

Do you know what magazine this is from? >> I have no idea.

44:07

This is a a wild uh >> Anyways, folks, this is who you're trading against and he is uh older today and uh certainly wiser every day. So, good luck out there.

44:20

Um and in other breaking news, uh we I don't know if we we didn't technically break the story.

44:29

I think the Financial Times broke the story this morning, but Arabore, the new bank from Palmer Lucky and Joe Lndale, has been approved.

44:37

They got their uh this is uh have it in my notes the fastest conditional approval for a depository institution denovo application in 25 years.

44:48

Um they recently raised 275 million led by 8 VC with participation from many top VCs and strategics.

44:59

This is largely for regulatory capital purposes uh as they intend to hold uh tw hold 12% of the regulatory capital against deposits.

45:08

Um the origin stories of Arabore is that uh you don't want you the bank for your industry to be risk on or at least be uh lending super aggressively against deposits.

45:26

We saw this with the SVB collapse in 2023.

45:29

Uh those few days were some of the worst in my life.

45:33

I I uh they will be fixated in my mind uh forever.

45:39

Um uh have some more notes here.

45:42

Most tech companies that had deposits with SVB remember the pain and uncertainty around that weekend.

45:45

Uh if if the government doesn't step in, how many companies collapse as well?

45:50

Arabore aims to be one of the most conservative banks in the country when it comes to lending to deposit ratio.

45:55

Most banks lend up to 90% of their customer deposits and Arabore is going to start at around 50% and trend downwards as the bank scales.

46:06

um shouldn't be a huge surprise but going to be focused on uh re-industrialization, American dynamism, working with a lot of uh companies that uh many banks have historically said, you know, we don't even really want your business, right?

46:19

So, >> um very excited for this to get off the ground uh in the new year.

46:23

It's been so interesting watching the narrative around like what it takes to build a bank shift because years ago it was like you need to operate at like seven levels of abstraction away from any legacy financial institution because there's just no hope of actually playing at like the base layer.

46:41

Then it became well if you're doing crypto you can buy a regional bank and maybe layer some technology on top but like don't even think about trying to get a new charter.

46:54

definitely partner with someone who already has one.

46:55

It's impossible to start from scratch.

46:57

>> And there are a bunch of uh crypto uh platforms that are looking to set up uh slightly different type of financial institution there.

47:07

I'm blanking on the name, but it's something uh trust uh >> company.

47:13

I I I'm I'm going to I'm going to botch it if I if I try to remember.

47:17

But um but the the speed here is because they are >> being hyperconservative and that's what we want out of uh uh what will I'm sure very quickly become one of the most important financial institutions in the industry.

47:30

H um >> Amjad uh is quoting uh apparently Larry >> Larry Frink >> Larry Frink says uh uh talking about um uh he he went on CNBC uh yesterday and says this is only the beginning as the tokenization of everything is underway.

47:50

Uh money, property and even personal identity will soon exist in digital form.

47:55

I'm sure that uh the conspiracy theorist will love this one, but Omjad says, "Whatever your crypto web 3 NFT monkey, DJ, trader friend is saying today, Larry Frink will be saying in 5 years."

48:07

Of course, um many uh many of the people in the crypto community have been saying this for I don't know as far back as 2015.

48:18

Yeah, maybe even >> I have an update on the 100% tariff on China that went into effect last Friday, put the market in turmoil.

48:26

Uh Poly Market has a 16% chance that that 100% tariff is in effect on November 1st and so everyone's kind of pricing some sort of renegotiation in the trade war coming soon.

48:41

Uh and hopefully I mean things are already starting to stabilize.

48:43

What is the market actually doing today?

48:45

Um, we're up half a percent in the NASDAQ. Bitcoin's down 1 and a.

48:50

5% but overall >> half point a modest modest increase. Yes, but we'll take it. >> The bubble popped. We're reinflating now. It's great.

49:02

Um, Annie says, "This guy I know funded his wife's Etsy sticker business by buying her one of these and like $500 in social media ads to give her something to do.

49:11

And now he's quit his job entirely because she's making them so much money." >> Wow. >> That's amazing.

49:19

>> Etsy Etsy feels like an underrated story right now, especially with the sort of like longtail commerce.

49:24

like longtail commerce. like >> Ben Thompson told some >> well the reason that in integration is actually cool is I can imagine a future where you can generate like a mockup for an object >> and then find an Etsy seller that makes

49:39

something like it and just ask them to make it and it'll be like one click to go to like you generate an image of something >> or video and you can just find the right vendor that can actually physically make it for you >> and in one click you know purchase it. This is the real like uh like 3D

49:52

This is the real like uh like 3D printing boom.

49:54

Like there was this whole vision about a decade ago of like 3D printers now work.

49:58

Everyone's going to have a 3D printer in their home and they'll be able to print whatever they wanted.

50:03

That didn't quite happen, but there are a lot of Etsy sellers that have figured out specific 3D printed objects.

50:08

Uh we just got one at home for taking the wheel off a stroller more efficiently and it's just a 3D printed little key that takes that off.

50:15

Uh Ben Thompson was talking about some some 3D printed device.

50:20

I I forget what it was, but it would like it holds an HDMI cable into a specific device like in a a perfect angle.

50:26

And there was like or or it adapts a rack mounted thing in some way.

50:30

Uh and it was just something where like there's no real market to fully productionize like the ma and massproduce it, but a 3D printer can go on Etsy and and find the right customer.

50:40

And so you're seeing this like super long tail emerge, which is uh honestly fascinating, exciting.

50:44

Uh well before we have our next guest join our first guest uh let me tell you about Julius what analysis do you want to run chat with your data and get expert level insights in seconds it's the AI data analyst that works for you >> and we have Zach Bray from Plaid in the Reream waiting room let's bring in the TVP and Ultradome.

51:04

How are you doing >> guys? Nice to see you. Thank you for having me. >> Good to see you. >> Looking sharp.

51:10

Are you in DC today or is it just you're just dressed for the occasion of of uh >> TVPN? >> TBPN.

51:18

>> I mean, you all dressed so nicely when you're you're you're doing the news, I figured I had to dress up, too. No, I'm I'm in DC. It's DC.

51:24

>> There you couldn't tell, we we borrowed a bunker to to to film this from. So, >> it looks great. >> Yeah.

51:32

Very very very sound padded.

51:32

Uh yeah, give us give us the update.

51:35

Everyone in the audience is familiar with the company, but uh what what's the latest and greatest in your world?

51:38

So today's a big day for us.

51:41

We we do uh two big product releases each year.

51:43

This is our fall product release.

51:45

Um lots of new exciting stuff that that just came out.

51:49

Um probably chief among it is uh a product that we call lend score.

51:52

It is a new credit score.

51:56

>> We've been working on a bunch of credit analytics products for many years.

51:57

And this lend score gives a really robust picture of a potential borrower.

52:02

Let's say that you got a new job.

52:04

Uh your income went up a lot.

52:06

We could actually recognize that kind of thing in real time.

52:09

uh let's say that you sign up for seven loans all in the last 24 hours.

52:14

It's probably pretty sketchy.

52:14

You can recognize that kind of thing in real time.

52:17

So, a big upgrade to to to the credit scores.

52:19

Also launched a bunch of stuff around um risk and fraud analytics, payments, so on and so forth.

52:24

So, big big day for us today.

52:25

>> How do legacy fraud scores work?

52:25

Like I'm I'm familiar with, you know, the it's out of 800 and you get a random number and if you pay off but there's all these like weird like uh there's these weird things and you hear recommendations like oh don't pay off this loan early because that'll actually hurt your score.

52:41

It always feels very uh very indecipherable but like what what what did you not like about the current system? What's currently broken?

52:50

>> Well, the the way that you feel is the way that everybody feels about credit scores in the past.

52:54

um they're they're kind of a 350 to 850 score.

52:58

It's largely based on your your history of payments and the amount of loans that you've taken out in the past and it's not responsive to the changes in your life in real time.

53:08

It also skips a lot of important data inputs.

53:11

Um now the the lending industry has been built on these credit scores for for decades. Um and they work okay.

53:18

Um but when you think about uh an average lender, they want more information because today the fundamentals of lending have changed.

53:26

There's a lot more attempted fraud in lending.

53:29

>> Um there's a lot more um new insights that you could be gathering and frankly consumers change their patterns a lot more.

53:34

So the seven-year look back doesn't make a ton of sense.

53:36

I myself, I had um gone to an optometrist and that optometrist self sent the bill to an old address for me and my credit score was hit because I never got that bill for years and then I finally figured it out.

53:50

>> I had the same thing happen. >> Yeah.

53:52

My first my first company, we had a whole bunch of like Wi-Fi hotspots on Verizon contract. >> This happened to me.

53:57

This exact same happened to me, too.

53:59

My credit got dinged because I sent the router back and they were like, "We never got it." Yeah.

54:05

>> I was like, "So, you lost it and you have my card on file and you didn't just charge me for it and then just deal with it." Yeah.

54:11

It's very, very frustrating.

54:12

I'm sure there's so much frustration.

54:12

I have a bunch more questions, but sorry I cut you off. >> Yeah.

54:15

I guess uh my my main question is like okay obviously the industry and consumers deserve like a more modern credit score but it feels like these the existing scores are heavily entrenched and it's it's like you can make a better product but how do you actually get it to mass adoption among you know uh lenders broadly?

54:37

[Music] >> It's a great question.

54:39

Um the the new product that we launched is focused on looking at consumers in real time.

54:42

So, um, how do we look at your income?

54:45

How do we look at your expenses?

54:46

You can do the math to figure out free cash flow.

54:50

And that should be the amount that a consumer can pay back in a given month or year.

54:53

Um, the way that we're launching it originally is actually in partnership with a lot of folks.

54:57

So, we'll partner with the existing bureaus with with a lot of the existing lenders um to add this alongside FICO or alongside Vantage Score.

55:05

So, you can look at a FICO and then you can say um, oh, but this user said that they just changed jobs.

55:11

Let me get the data from that new job.

55:12

Uh so we can add that in and then there's this interesting insight that we have which which only we have because we work with all of the lenders and we can see the velocity of loans applied for.

55:21

We call this network insights.

55:23

There's a bunch of other data points that we can see just based on the traffic that you're doing across the entire plaid network.

55:27

Um so it's kind of a unique vector that people can now lend against.

55:32

Um the net effect is we're seeing you know call it often times 20% lift in the quality of outcomes uh from from this new one.

55:39

Um, and we're seeing a lot more people actually be eligible for loans because let's say they have a really high income and good uh rent payment history that actually should indicate that they're a better loan.

55:52

>> How do you think about I I imagine that there's a very complex algorithm to actually decide the score.

55:56

There's probably some machine learning or AI in there.

56:00

Um, but you also want to deliver something that's like a human readable insight so you can tell someone why their score dropped or what they can do to make their score better.

56:08

Maybe I I have a friend who works in it's not high frequency trading, it's like out like it's quantitative uh trading so it's like a couple days out and uh and he was like we'll crunch all these numbers.

56:20

We'll come up with some like thesis for buying a billion dollars of some company in a day and we'll be selling in like three days.

56:26

Um, and I was like, "Is there any way that you could say, "Oh, well, it's because like if gold goes up, like, could you put it in business logic or like if statements that a human could understand?"

56:35

He was like, "It's impossible."

56:36

Like, there's so many different parameters that go into finding like alpha in the financial markets.

56:41

And I feel like there's a world where a consumer would be very disappointed if you're like, "Yeah, your score went up one point, but we have no idea why.

56:49

And we can't tell you the first thing about why it went up.

56:51

just these tensors, these weights activated in this massive model and your score went down. Sorry.

56:58

Uh so how do you think about actually educating the consumer on like how how their score goes up or down?

57:06

>> So we we do a bunch of machine learning and AI to obviously like clean up the data and make it structured in a way that we can build our models on top of it.

57:14

But ultimately our models are representative roughly of the financial health of a consumer.

57:18

So almost everything that that a consumer would do to better manage their money will end up with a better credit score.

57:25

Um almost everything they would do to uh more poorly manage their money will end up with a worse credit score.

57:30

Um and so the nice thing is when we build it, we're actually able to show it to the consumer first.

57:36

They're able to review it if they want to click submit and then it goes to the lender so the lender can then subsequently make the decision on the back of it. >> That's cool.

57:44

So, so it's very lender friendly in that they're opting in if they want to just run with their Experian score or whatever whatever options they have, they can they can do that or they can add this on as a way to kind of improve their application. >> Exactly. Yeah.

58:00

So, the >> over time though, over the over time though, the lender would realize, hey, we're getting actually much better insight hereal.

58:07

We want to just, you know, roll with this.

58:10

I imagine >> that's what we hope.

58:12

Um but the goal at first is that consumers feel like they can get more and better loans.

58:16

Lenders feel like they can make more and better loans.

58:19

So it's kind of opening the market initially and then over time um you know we hope that this becomes one of the most important if not the most important way that a lender makes their decisions.

58:29

>> How does buy now pay later fit into the ecosystem at this point?

58:32

I imagine that they all have like their own systems but then they would love to just have more data because that probably enables better underwriting.

58:39

How do they fit into this ecosystem?

58:43

So, buy now pay later are sophisticated lenders.

58:46

There's a scale of sophistication of all lenders.

58:47

Um, you know, um, there are some lenders that will just use an out-of-the-box FICO score or an out-of-the-box lend score, um, to make a lending decision.

58:57

Um, the highly sophisticated lenders, they'll want a zillion inputs.

59:00

Yes, they'll still get maybe a FICO, they'll they'll get a plaid lend score, but they want to look at the underlying inputs, the underlying raw data, and then they'll build their own models on top of it.

59:08

I would say the BNPL lenders are quite sophisticated in the way that they lend.

59:14

Um, and so they're they're pulling a ton of data into the picture and then building kind of their own custom models on top of it.

59:18

Now, our inputs are yes, still inputs to their model, but they're not looking at our score as the sole determining factor. >> Yeah.

59:24

Is the business model for the lens score the same as the previous credit scores or different in some way?

59:30

How do you think about that? >> Pretty similar. Yeah.

59:33

We we sell it on a kind of per loan application basis.

59:36

Uh our customers are the lenders. They pay us for it. Got it.

59:40

Um there's a handful of things that we can do to actually help them track uh creditworthiness on an ongoing basis.

59:45

So whereas FICO or Vantage often times is a one-time snapshot.

59:49

Um sometimes a lender will want to maybe make offers to a consumer if they realize they want to increase their credit line.

59:56

um or um maybe they want to kind of give better preferential payment terms to a consumer um if they think they can pay a loan down faster.

1:00:04

Um and so ours is an ongoing credit score.

1:00:07

That's maybe the only big difference.

1:00:09

>> How do you think about uh what the consumer's interface is to the credit scores?

1:00:15

I remember like years ago you used to have to actually go to the three credit go to the credit store. >> Yeah.

1:00:21

you had to go to the credit store and like check out and pay like 30 bucks and then you'd get that and then you'd take that to a loan application sometimes.

1:00:27

Sometimes they just do it on the back end. They'd pay.

1:00:29

Uh but then over time I feel like the credit scores uh just became almost commoditized or free.

1:00:36

Like it just shows up in my, you know, banking app a lot.

1:00:38

Uh, and there were also like Credit Karma and different companies that figured out ways to basically pay that as a like a customer acquisition cost for free and then they give you a bunch of products on top that they would monetize.

1:00:51

How do you think the the what do you think the long-term consumer adoption of the lens score looks like?

1:01:00

>> Well, we hope it's pretty similar actually.

1:01:02

We want consumers to be able to get a clear view of their credit profile for free.

1:01:06

Um, we're working on building ways that a consumer can come in and and and look at that.

1:01:10

Um, and you know, ultimately the customer then would be the lender.

1:01:15

Like it's it's to our benefit to have consumers that understand this more.

1:01:18

Um, it's to our benefit to have consumers that trust this score and that that that trust the things that we build.

1:01:23

Uh, and so we want to be as as direct and open with the consumer as we can.

1:01:27

Um, so a lot of that stuff is to come and you'll you'll see some launches from us uh kind of over the coming coming quarters on that front.

1:01:34

>> Uh, what else uh besides lens? uh was the focus today.

1:01:38

>> Uh so a big big upgrade to our anti-fraud model and we launched a kind of broader uh suite of products called protect.

1:01:45

Um so again protect for us um it's a set of products that looks at a consumer's underlying actions that they take across um almost any financial product.

1:01:54

Um and we can back it into an overall score of riskiness for the consumer and then a bunch of attributes.

1:02:00

So some of the attributes are very easily explainable such as this person just signed up for three crypto apps in the last 30 minutes.

1:02:06

Um some of the attributes are less easily explainable more on the the the machine learning side.

1:02:12

Um but this stuff will feed into the the models for a lot of our customers and then they can build kind of this really fascinating step up step down requirement for users based on their relative levels of riskiness.

1:02:23

Um, this has been a huge unlock for a lot of the fintech companies that are trying to sign up more users faster.

1:02:29

Um, we can create a fast lane effectively.

1:02:32

So, we've seen you before.

1:02:33

We recognize your device.

1:02:35

We've seen your phone number.

1:02:36

You just do a two-factor code and you're good to go.

1:02:38

Um, and then we can also create a slow lane.

1:02:39

So, um, hey, we've never seen you before.

1:02:41

Your device doesn't seem to match the IP address that you're you're dialing in from.

1:02:45

Um, what's going on with all this stuff?

1:02:48

Let's let's add a bunch of step ups and um, you know, be really really certain that you are who you say you are.

1:02:51

So, fast for financial services.

1:02:53

That's what we're trying to build.

1:02:56

>> This sounds like the worst nightmare of somebody doing large scale financial fraud on the internet.

1:03:02

>> What does uh what what's the shape of AI adoption at Plaid right now?

1:03:05

Um I feel like obviously there's probably a ton of AI that you're doing on just like software development stuff, but at the same time I feel like if I was a thing with Plaid and it was like, "Hey, you want to chat with me right now?" I'd be like, "No thanks.

1:03:19

I'm actually good to just click a couple buttons."

1:03:20

So like are you seeing a lot of like LLM token consumption or more just focused on the machine learning the custom models for underwriting where you train a specific model for that and you're not just leaning on a big like token factory for a lot of work.

1:03:37

>> I I'd say um our our use of uh tokens I would call it like medium.

1:03:41

Uh sure we do build kind of a custom training data set um and then run a ton of the data through that that model and the dating the training data set.

1:03:50

Um, a lot of it is around just cleaning up transactions, identifying what kind of thing is happening.

1:03:56

Um, like the textual analysis is very very helpful for that.

1:03:58

So that's that's like the input into a lot of our models. Yeah.

1:04:02

Um, but you're right, we don't build like an active chat app for any consumer.

1:04:07

Um, a lot of the AI that we're doing is used to fight AI.

1:04:09

Uh, meaning there's a lot of attempted AI fraud and then we have a lot of AI on the other side to try to fight AI fraud.

1:04:18

Um uh and then it's it's kind of building the foundational kind of data set upon which we build a lot of the models. >> Yeah.

1:04:23

So whenever you have a big pile of text in in kind of behind the scenes in the back end, you can run LLMs over that and get a lot finer grain data, categorize, understand what's actually going on with those large text dumps, but you don't necessarily even need to surface that to the to the customer, the end user, which is great.

1:04:41

>> Generally, not directly.

1:04:41

Generally, we'll we'll service it to the consumer indirectly saying, "Hey, you had elevated bank fees."

1:04:46

And we won't even send that to the consumer.

1:04:48

We'll send that to our customer.

1:04:49

Our customer will then say, "All right, in your budgeting app, you had elevated bank fees and look at all these different bank fees."

1:04:55

>> That makes a ton of sense.

1:04:55

Well, congrats on the launch.

1:04:56

Thanks so much for stopping by.

1:04:58

>> Always great to see you.

1:05:00

>> Have fun at >> Have a good one. >> Cheers, Zach.

1:05:01

Before we hop on with our second guest of the show, let me tell you about Fall, the generative media app for developers.

1:05:07

The world's best generative image, video, and model audio models all in one place.

1:05:12

Develop and fine-tune models with serverless GPUs and on demand clusters.

1:05:16

And our next guest is about to be in the reream waiting room.

1:05:21

>> We can go back to the timeline.

1:05:21

Black Rockck and Nvidia are participating in a $40 billion data center takeover also including XAI and Microsoft. >> That's great news.

1:05:37

>> This is in the Financial Times this morning.

1:05:39

Invest an investment consortium that includes Black Rockck Global Infrastructure Partners and that's a great name for uh a fund that does global infrastructure investing.

1:05:47

Uh and of course Abu Dhabi fund MGX uh has struck a $40 billion takeover of one of the world's largest data center operators as it launches an initiative to underwrite the infrastructure for artificial intelligence.

1:05:59

Uh and I believe we have our next guest in the reream waiting room. So let's bring him in. >> PX from Amazon. >> Welcome to the show. How are you doing? >> Going on. >> Great to have you. >> Thanks so much. >> Good to be here. >> Hopping on.

1:06:15

Um congratulations on the launch.

1:06:18

uh sorry for uh the delay uh but very excited to catch up with you.

1:06:21

Uh would love to start with just an introduction on yourself kind of where you sit within the organization and then we can go into some of the news and some of the updates. >> Sure.

1:06:31

I'm uh the senior vice president uh devices and services.

1:06:34

So what that means is just if I frame it around brands it probably helps a little bit but think about devices across Amazon.

1:06:42

You'd start with uh Project Kyper, which are the satellites for Leo Leo constellation that we're building right now.

1:06:48

And on the other end, you would think about Zuks, which are the self-driving cars that you might have seen in Las Vegas.

1:06:54

>> But in between kind of the consumer brands, Alexa, Ring, Fire TV, Fire tablets, uh Kindle, Echo devices, you know, just an array of all the kind of consumer front devices that we build here at Amazon. >> Yeah.

1:07:08

Uh and and what uh what what's the latest update across the hardware ecosystem?

1:07:14

What was announced most recently?

1:07:17

>> We just launched uh a a set of new Echo devices. Super cool.

1:07:21

Kind of built for Alexa Plus.

1:07:23

This is our new Alexa Plus is our new AI interface uh using Alexa.

1:07:29

Just more conversational. It's really fun product.

1:07:31

Uh helps you get stuff done.

1:07:33

Two two screenbased devices, an 8 in and 11 in, and two new speakers. killer sound.

1:07:38

They're absolutely beautiful, by the way. They're just gorgeous.

1:07:41

We can talk about them if you want.

1:07:42

>> Uh, three new Kindles with called the Kindle Scribe.

1:07:45

These and one of them is in color, just gorgeous color writing.

1:07:50

>> Um, a whole array of 4K cameras with Ring, including doorbells, >> which bringing that clarity. Quite cool.

1:07:59

Just these are the cool products and some new Fire TVs.

1:08:01

just quite literally TVs from, you know, 40 in >> up to 75 in uh including what you call Fire TV Stick. >> Yeah.

1:08:12

Uh how are you thinking about Alexa?

1:08:13

I mean we've been following like uh Siri launched a long time ago and it feels I just activated Siri and it feels like they are at a point where the current the the previous system was very much like business logic with a bunch of different routes that the that the Siri app could go down and now they're kind of in the LLM era in the completely uh AI generative AI era and maybe that necessitates a rethink or a rebuild or a partnership.

1:08:42

How has Amazon grappled with this idea that the architecture of what an AI assistant is might be changing?

1:08:54

>> Yeah, if you there's a couple ways to think about it.

1:08:56

First, I think the way you framed it is, you know, previously a lot of this was deterministic.

1:09:00

If you said the right thing, you kind of got the right answer or you know, call it point and shoot where >> question answer question answer.

1:09:07

It's it's flipping on its head now because when LLMs come into play, you have to rearchitect the whole problem.

1:09:14

You move from this deterministic model where if you say the right thing, you get the right answer.

1:09:19

It kind of feels limited.

1:09:21

You know, it's like a different type of speak that you have towards one of some of these what in the previous agents if you will.

1:09:27

But now you're in this conversational world.

1:09:28

Anything you ask unlimited knowledge specifically to Alexa, you you found you there's personality that comes into play.

1:09:36

There's empathy that comes into play.

1:09:38

there's so you get this personalization but you also get memory >> and so the more you talk to her the more it knows about you.

1:09:45

So you've gone from this what you would say just give and take moment to a conversation in depth understanding and then actually getting some stuff done.

1:09:55

I think the power of it though, um, not only do you have all that, you have this, uh, kind of ambient world around you.

1:10:04

If you have a few Alexa devices plugged in, they'll all update with the new Alexa Plus AI, uh, baseline >> and you and you and now you can just have a conversation from anywhere.

1:10:14

Ask anything you want, keep your phone in your pocket, and those like critical moments where you don't have to go do the research that way, just have a conversation. It's pretty powerful.

1:10:21

Do you think there's a risk of uh or or some sort of tension between like the Alexa developers, the app store, the I I know some folks who have built specific apps uh that do specific things, but if you drop a more generalized LLM system on top of it, uh that might actually be competitive.

1:10:39

You're kind of competing with your customers like how have you messaged to the developer community around that?

1:10:43

developers are pretty pumped about it right now >> because you know these skills we're still calling you know these basically you're calling these uh APIs that are routing to a skill.

1:10:54

So while it's not deterministic point and shoot it still is um kind of think of it as different agents on the system that you can that you can call on.

1:11:05

So you you're you're seeing these developers write apps >> u where the LLM makes you know the product Alexa makes the decision kind of orchestrates and says you're you're trying to order a car let me >> we'll call Uber and then Uber makes the car happen. >> Yeah.

1:11:20

Um, and I think as you as you see that as an example or you wanted to order food from GrubHub or whatever the answer was, you just ask for the food and and then you know that service makes its move and you know delivers it.

1:11:34

I think there's this fundamental of it's actually better for developers because as if you're serving your customer, they're sitting here, they're trying to tell you what they want.

1:11:45

They don't have to be as explicit anymore.

1:11:47

they can almost be general in their asks. >> Yeah.

1:11:51

>> And at that point, if it's calling on an app or a skill um or an add-on as we call it, developers are pretty pumped about it right now.

1:12:00

We have a pretty long list of developers right now.

1:12:01

We probably have the largest group of if you will agents attached to any LLM out there. >> Mhm.

1:12:08

>> And so you're it is a pretty rare uh situation as it's just not being done anywhere else.

1:12:13

How do you think about the future of smart glasses and wearables?

1:12:17

Uh Amazon's done so many smart devices from the TV you mentioned to the Kindle to the Alexa.

1:12:22

It feels like an obvious thing.

1:12:24

You you have a number of products that have been announced or already live, but where do you think that goes?

1:12:29

What formats do you like most?

1:12:31

Uh and where are you seeing the most adoption really?

1:12:36

>> So, we see a ton we see our usage kind of just spiking with Alexa Plus on the current device lineup that we have today.

1:12:42

We have frames um frames that people wear uh we see the usage go up, the buds are going up because when you take an agent that that smart with you, it's quite powerful.

1:12:50

So you >> we already see it happening um in different form factors.

1:12:55

I mean it's down to user preference.

1:12:56

I will say this, I you're hitting a point that I think is just worth noting.

1:13:03

You're I think there are plenty of jobs moving to what you would call AI devices.

1:13:08

it's just kind of changing.

1:13:11

>> And if you think about um kind of the the evolution of different portions of tech over time, let me take you back when I was developing uh I think 14 years ago.

1:13:22

I I I was making a laptop and somebody had come to me and said, "What what are you doing? The laptop is dead."

1:13:30

I can't see you guys right now, but >> assuming you have laptops in front of you now, I can see. Thank you. Yeah.

1:13:38

Like just think about that for a minute.

1:13:39

Like that was 14 years ago, guys.

1:13:39

Like literally I was we were creating this product.

1:13:42

We're going to make this laptop.

1:13:44

It's going to create and I have this vision and you're getting all after it.

1:13:47

You're like this is beautiful.

1:13:47

Look what it can do and every detail and you're going and the first thing is like why would you build a laptop? That thing is dead. >> Yeah.

1:13:55

>> The phone has replaced it.

1:13:55

It's over for the laptop 14 years ago. >> Yeah.

1:13:58

These things stick around long time.

1:14:01

>> What really was happening, you know, wasn't that the laptop was dying.

1:14:02

It was just getting stronger at what it did Great. >> Yeah.

1:14:06

Yeah, >> jobs had kind of moved to the phone and the things that mattered to you on a phone came to life, communications, then you know the advent of social media, uh, shopping probably like things that were easier there, but the things that mattered like right now your notes or your other things that mattered for the laptop, they just got stronger.

1:14:23

I think we're kind of in that same era.

1:14:25

I think AI devices are coming down the pipe.

1:14:29

>> Yeah, >> they're going to be great for certain things.

1:14:31

Uh, and to your point, a lot of them will be on the go, whether it's glasses or something on your wrist or, you know, something in your pocket.

1:14:39

>> I don't talk about, you know, what's in the lab, but for sure, you would you would imagine that as the jobs move, there's going to be form factors that evolve that are going to be more important.

1:14:47

I think it just strengthens the form factors that exist today.

1:14:49

Just like the laptop got stronger in my opinion because when the phone came, you know, you got better at the jobs on your laptop, just like when the laptop came, >> the desktop got stronger for gaming and developers.

1:15:01

And you just see that evolution where it's not that these form factors go away, but they get better at what they are meant to be and then new form factors show up.

1:15:08

I think that's happening right now.

1:15:10

>> How do you think about the personality and brand of individual models?

1:15:11

I feel like uh there's a world where I would love an Alexa that I can just say uh it's Claude and I'm talking to an Alexa hardware device, but I like the personality and functionality of Claude and so I want to just kind of run that piece of software by default in the same way that I can select like a default browser.

1:15:33

I have a MacBook but I run Chrome as my default browser.

1:15:35

Is there a world where I could be able to do that?

1:15:39

>> It's an interesting thought.

1:15:39

It's not how it works for Alexa right now.

1:15:41

But it's pretty it's it's interesting.

1:15:43

I don't think for like if I if I think about the customer the you know kind of a I don't know what you would call it but just the b the baseline customer.

1:15:56

What I'm trying to do >> I mean I'm extremely online.

1:15:59

I have I have opinions about models.

1:16:03

>> I don't even know what to tell you.

1:16:03

Like >> but many people don't care.

1:16:06

>> You hit the extreme in the question.

1:16:06

But here's how I think about it.

1:16:09

>> I think like Alexa is basically model agnostic.

1:16:11

like what's the right model for the job? >> Sure.

1:16:14

>> And of course, we have fine-tuned models specifically that are built specifically for Alexa to do the jobs that you're looking for.

1:16:20

>> The thing that matters most, I think, to our customers is that it personalizes to you. >> Mhm.

1:16:25

>> And so, the more I talk to it about the things that I love, the more it understands me.

1:16:28

I think you see that today in other products.

1:16:30

But then as you're in natural conversations or you're asking for the next thing, you don't have to go all the way.

1:16:35

Alexa can be proactive for you.

1:16:39

>> I give you a simple example.

1:16:39

Maybe it's a silly one, but it is simple.

1:16:41

Just kind of being practical.

1:16:43

If I ask Alexa, I have a camera.

1:16:46

Um, I have a Ring camera right now.

1:16:49

You you have it on the in the where my dogs eat in the dog bowls.

1:16:51

And if I ask I can ask Alexa now.

1:16:54

It's pretty cool feature.

1:16:56

It's just AI and it's, you know, simple sense.

1:16:58

Uh, although kind of kind of fun.

1:17:01

Did anyone feed the dogs today?

1:17:05

That's a classic question at my house.

1:17:06

I get in trouble every night when I get home.

1:17:08

Have you fed the dogs yet?

1:17:09

I'm like, I just walked in.

1:17:10

You know, that sort of thing. Like, how?

1:17:12

And and and then there's that moment where I can just turn and ask Alexa and Alexa says, "No, nobody nobody fed the dogs today." So, it's >> Yeah.

1:17:21

It's just very cool because it knows nobody fed the dogs.

1:17:23

You know, we use Ring video descriptions.

1:17:25

We understand there's a dog.

1:17:27

We understand that somebody fed the food um and or fed the dog the food.

1:17:31

So, if the dog's not fed, I can ask.

1:17:34

But in three days or four days later, it can be proactive and just say, "Hey, nobody's fed the dogs today."

1:17:40

And like you just take that, it didn't matter which LLM or which agents kind of created that scenario to the customer.

1:17:46

What mattered was it had the personalization.

1:17:49

It knows I care about it and then uh kind of proactively gave me that information back.

1:17:52

I think it's that's the essence of just staying agnostic to it.

1:17:56

But we do use different models and >> how are you thinking about the way that advertising should integrate into AI assistance because there's a lot of debate happening right now.

1:18:07

People are going to assistants for product recommendations and advice on things to buy.

1:18:16

And I think there's a very real and important debate around when should this assistant that's like a trusted advisor.

1:18:24

How should ad, you know, ad based recommendations, you know, show up? When is it appropriate?

1:18:28

When should it just recommend?

1:18:31

Like, you know, there's no there's usually no objectively best product in a category because every consumer is different.

1:18:37

But what's your framework for that?

1:18:39

Because obviously Amazon's >> very pro ad.

1:18:44

>> When do you think you should recommend or what should it recommend?

1:18:46

You the way you framed it is right.

1:18:48

I think the like any assistant, the better it knows you, the better the recommendations can be.

1:18:54

And so where I get where I think ads do work is when you're actually helping the customer, you know, find what they're looking for.

1:19:03

Um, and then it just comes down to the that personalization aspect and some of that history.

1:19:08

If you if there's something you use quite often and you're having, you know, and there's an ad that actually helps you if it's raised to you, uh, that's when I get excited because I think it's like a holistic approach to, you know, that kind of circle.

1:19:23

When it's just random >> and you're like, what is this?

1:19:27

I it really that's painful.

1:19:30

>> It's where it gets painful.

1:19:30

And people really have no problem with the idea of an going to your Alexa it and then Amazon taking a cut of the commerce transaction that happens because you see the Amazon truck and you see the delivery network and you see how fast things arrive.

1:19:46

And so there's clear value perveyed there.

1:19:48

And so I think most customers are are happy to have Amazon take uh essentially like an affiliate fee almost on that or or cut.

1:19:57

Uh the yeah the issue is is how how agnostic. >> Yeah.

1:20:02

Is there a world where where Alexa would be getting an like an like effectively be an affiliate on the platform like it was an external like you know source that was sending traffic because what I would want is to arrive on is basically say hey Alexa >> uh and sorry to anybody at home I'm setting off your your Alexa device if you're listening to this.

1:20:23

Um, but uh, hey Alexa, I want to buy uh uh uh I I use the example of a paper towel holder because I I've had a uh and I want it to be from a brand that is over 50 years old and like that is the kind of per that's the kind of product I want to buy from a reputable brand that has been operating and that isn't just, you know, importing the cheapest possible product from from overseas.

1:20:48

And so that is like a very valuable recommendation to me and as a consumer I don't care if Alexa takes a cut but uh that's different than me just searching in in uh you know in a search bar. >> I agree.

1:21:03

I mean I don't know about I'm not exactly sure what you mean by Alexa taking a cut there but what I would like to see happen in that scenario and I think is what happens today is because we're so conversational we can do that search for you. We can bring it up.

1:21:15

search for you. We can bring it up. We can also just look at your shopping history if you choose to enable that and then say look here this is the size of paper towels you've been buying and fundamentally you know if you just go to that next level of beyond just I'm going to I heard what you said and here's the answer maybe just do a little bit of

1:21:33

logic flow for you and bring back a few options I think that's when it does get like these are those emotional connection points I know it sounds silly we're talking about paper towels but if you're asking for something indirectly and you don't know exactly what you're pointing and shooting for and you get something that's close and you can have a conversation. Just think about any

1:21:48

Just think about any assistant kind of mode and just talking to somebody.

1:21:52

I'm just going to have this conversation and we're going to brainstorm it together.

1:21:54

You're you're starting to see that happen on Alexa.

1:21:58

>> It's less so it's more so about refining what it is you're getting after.

1:22:02

>> Um see that in kind of most aspects >> on the on the Kindle side.

1:22:06

Uh are you getting like feature requests from users that want more AI integrated into products?

1:22:14

I can imagine I I pick up a book I haven't read in a while and I it'd be nice to be able to say, "Can you summarize the first three chapters?"

1:22:21

>> Summarize the entire book in one sentence. I'm done. >> Okay, I'm done.

1:22:24

Uh but >> yeah, >> we're getting a bunch of it.

1:22:27

And you know, it's a this is a fun I'm going to answer your We have a thing called book so far.

1:22:31

So, I'm going to tell you about that.

1:22:32

That was the exact feature you just asked for and and it's AI based >> and it's basically continue watching for books. Do you know what I mean?

1:22:38

You watch the first three episodes of >> whatever it is, you know, Rings of Power and you're like, just keep me up to date or, you know, >> whatever it what show it is, and you just see the recap and then you go into your the next episode.

1:22:51

This happens to me all the time because I don't watch enough TV.

1:22:54

>> Yeah, >> we have books so far, which is that, you know, hey, summarize how far I am to this book. Remind me.

1:22:59

You also can ask the book anything you want.

1:23:02

>> Yeah, >> you can ask Kindle anything you want about the book.

1:23:04

And that was a big feature request, like just want to talk about the character.

1:23:07

I want to know more about what really happened here and now that's happening.

1:23:10

So that's where AI enhances it.

1:23:12

But you have to be really careful because there's something pure about Kindle. >> Yeah.

1:23:17

>> That customers love and this is like near and dear to my heart.

1:23:18

You >> you have to be a super fine line.

1:23:20

We do have like on the Kindle scribes that we just launched, we do have AI search for any of your notes.

1:23:26

So if you have hundreds of pages of notes now, you just search for or and then you can say summarize all the notes that I wrote about John or whatever and you know you'd get them all summarized and it would do a smart summary for you and then you can put them in.

1:23:38

You can do all that but here's here's the risk that we're very cautious of.

1:23:43

Like Kindle's like a sanctuary.

1:23:46

It's like this you you get into it and then you just want to disappear into it.

1:23:50

Our users like they love their books.

1:23:52

You know what they hate when they're reading books is distractions.

1:23:55

Yeah, >> I don't even I don't use that word lightly, but it is like if you popped him an ad or put a link up or I infiltrated you with a text coming in uh if you will from Jordy, you'd be like, "God, I'm just trying to read, man.

1:24:07

This is my one place to disappear."

1:24:10

Uh and it's crazy because readers are popping up everywhere. New readers.

1:24:15

I think like 60% of our new purchases are from totally new readers right now, just so you know.

1:24:21

So, there's a bit of a spike happening because it's a growing category again.

1:24:26

The the trick is to hold that as like that sanctuary where when you do pick up to read, that's what it becomes.

1:24:30

The more tech you put in there beyond a book, you know, you you have to be careful.

1:24:36

We I think I know where that line is.

1:24:37

The team knows where that line is.

1:24:38

We have an amazing Kindle team.

1:24:40

They've been doing it for, you know, years and years.

1:24:42

This is and they are they they understand the customer so well.

1:24:46

But to your point, the customer is starting to ask, can I can I get to what we call book so far or continue watching is the best way to say it in in analogous.

1:24:54

And so we created that or summarization.

1:24:56

We have that um and also in your writing you can search your notes, but we're being very selective not to over techify it if that makes sense.

1:25:04

You got to be careful because at the end of the day it is a book um or it is a notepad that you want to write on and and you you have plenty of other devices to let your distractions kick in, but this is the one that we kind of hold coveted and and protect quite a bit.

1:25:21

>> I have one last question.

1:25:21

Uh but maybe it's just a technical one, but uh on on Kindle and AI, uh I think of Kindle as I don't want to say underpowered, but like uh it's it's designed for long battery life, you know, not the craziest screen.

1:25:38

It's supposed to be something you can, you know, throw in your backpack and pull out on a trip and know that it's still charged, right?

1:25:42

Uh so I imagine that there's >> you you should be a product manager for Kindle. >> Okay, great. Yeah. >> Hold that line.

1:25:49

If you hold if you hold that frame, man, you you're perfect.

1:25:53

Like just just religiously hold on to those statements. >> Fantastic.

1:25:56

And and and so I imagine that the the AI workloads need to be done in the cloud and you're not thinking about ondevice AI and that's generally the right tradeoff because the summaries can be processed asynchronously or or they can be queued up and and kind of gone back and forth over the over the Wi-Fi network or or for 4G.

1:26:15

I I'm just kind of interested in like what the what the median connectivity versus uh ondevice compute tradeoff looks like for Kindle going forward. >> Yeah, it's tricky.

1:26:27

We're doing we're doing a lot of work on the edge right now as you you put it on device and um I think you have to because it just it it can envelope speed and sometimes >> Yeah.

1:26:38

>> Um >> specifically though uh you basically we serve the customer transparently. Yeah. wherever it's right.

1:26:45

But we are doing work >> to >> when it's time and when it's time to use on device.

1:26:53

So let's call it like if you're trying to reduce latency on writing and you're doing some beautifification as an example. >> Yeah.

1:27:00

>> You're going to want to do it on device.

1:27:02

If you want to, >> you know, do books so far like it's a cloud-based thing.

1:27:06

I mean what if you started reading on your is a good example.

1:27:09

You started reading on your iPhone.

1:27:10

You came over to your Kindle uh and you picked it up.

1:27:13

you you want that to be a cloud-based experience.

1:27:14

That's not something you wanted on device.

1:27:16

So, like >> there's just there's trade-offs, but we do both. It's a good question.

1:27:20

I think that's true, >> by the way, across every single device we talked about today. >> Yeah, totally.

1:27:26

>> Like where's the edge workload more important um if I did want to, you know, depending on if we were doing what whether it was for security or speed, uh you're or cost, whatever it might have been.

1:27:37

You're always trying to find the right balance for the customer.

1:27:38

By the way, when you say it, can I show you this?

1:27:42

You may not be able to see it on the screen.

1:27:47

>> This is the new color Kindle. Can you see it? The screen's black. Is >> that rad?

1:27:50

>> So, is that is that color? >> Look how thin it is. Like, this thing is 5. 4 millm thin. Like, it's crazy. It's so fun.

1:27:57

And it has the same battery I've talked about.

1:27:59

Same latency, same speed, and I'm I have it here taking notes as I'm talking to you guys, but it >> it's like a it's a powerhouse now.

1:28:04

So, the processor there is double. >> Yeah.

1:28:08

Is that uh is that like e in screen?

1:28:11

like it works outside and bright >> sun.

1:28:13

So it almost feels like when you look at it it's so soft on the eyes, right?

1:28:16

It has a front light and the front light >> sure >> basically across the screen so it's not blasting you.

1:28:21

>> So it still has that subtlety.

1:28:21

You don't feel as tired as you're looking at it.

1:28:24

You can do it in the dark in the light.

1:28:26

There's nothing >> that you lose this screen. It's a matte screen.

1:28:29

It's perfect for writing. >> Wow.

1:28:31

>> And you're so you get all those pieces.

1:28:35

The refinement was color.

1:28:35

So there's always this battle like but it's not an LCD with the beautifification of you know OLED and so forth but I mean there's something beautiful and subtle about this almost like colored pencils on the screen.

1:28:47

>> Um and so even when you're writing in color it feels that way.

1:28:49

It's quite it's it's pretty uh >> one of my favorites. >> We got to get one.

1:28:54

We got to figure out how to jailbreak it.

1:28:56

Sideload the Sora slob feed.

1:28:58

I want brain rot on that thing. >> Don't tell me. Don't tell me.

1:29:01

Don't tell me any of that stuff, man.

1:29:03

I don't want to hear Last thing.

1:29:04

Do you think uh do you think do you think Amazon's AI opportunity is broadly underappreciated?

1:29:11

I mean it feels like there's so much surface area every retail opportunity anthropic.

1:29:16

You guys already have a suite of devices that people use and love that are in people's homes.

1:29:20

It feels like in many ways either you know >> you guys also have data centers too.

1:29:26

>> A few of those few racks.

1:29:28

>> They invented the data center. >> Uh for sure. >> Yeah. >> For sure.

1:29:33

I mean I don't know how else to say it.

1:29:34

to say it. like >> hands down you know you're every part every part of Amazon >> is like entrenched and driving um through AI and whether it's Bedrock AWS what's happening >> like cloud-wise all the models we run we

1:29:53

make available to our customers >> um all the way through stores and what they're doing fundamentally to help your shopping experience better prime video and what they're doing we have a jump to scene with Fire TV did you guys know That's very cool. >> Well, that's very movie scene.

1:30:05

>> Well, that's very movie scene.

1:30:08

>> I mean, also the largest deployment of of robots, I believe, in the world is >> correct.

1:30:13

Oh, well, I don't know if that's I don't know if that's accurate. I >> maybe in the US.

1:30:15

I I saw some chart where you guys were were passing a million robots.

1:30:20

>> Yeah, it's pretty massive.

1:30:20

And then like, you know, controlled by and then you have the other side of it.

1:30:23

All the Alexa devices now >> are about to be powered by Alexa plus.

1:30:28

This is like core foundation >> Sure.

1:30:30

>> of like consumer AI in its most practical sense.

1:30:32

Yeah, >> you're in this place now where you know I'm at the dinner table with the family and instead of somebody pulling out their phone to get the answer or research something, we just have a conversation with Alexa and you got the full depth of what you would have expected from an LLM based product, but it just very practical and ready for you.

1:30:50

And so like I think the whole gamut is you're right, it's it's quite underappreciated right now.

1:30:53

I don't I don't know what the right way to frame it is on the other side without sounding too like you know, but I I do think >> I I agree.

1:31:01

So I think uh and I think I think the market will will uh will realize eventually. So >> I do too.

1:31:09

I think you know first thing serve the customer, serve the customer, serve the customer and do it in the right way.

1:31:13

I think you know that's our focus and we'll we'll we'll kind of continue to do that. But you're right.

1:31:17

I think that it gets it'll get noticed, seen, understood.

1:31:22

>> Um I'm pretty proud of it right now.

1:31:22

And when you see what's coming with Alexa plus with Ring uh with Ring video search or Ring story descriptions and like summarizing your day, it really starts making it something.

1:31:32

It takes AI to the next level in my mind because it just makes it practical for people.

1:31:37

Like it just puts it right there.

1:31:38

Don't get me wrong, you can actually use Alexa.

1:31:40

com too to do all the things that people are associating with a traditional LLM. It's quite cool as well.

1:31:45

um or the app, but at the end of the day, there's just a whole new set of practical ways to use it that I think are going to be pretty delightful for our customers.

1:31:55

>> When's the new Scribe actually releasing?

1:31:56

I just tried to buy it while we were talking and it says coming soon.

1:32:02

>> I I'm not allowed to give you the date on here, but it's Yeah, you have to get on the You have to get on the wait list.

1:32:06

Our demand is a little bit higher than we expected it to be.

1:32:07

Right now, we're in we're in production.

1:32:09

So, you >> you guys couldn't get the demand planning right. I want a scrub.

1:32:16

>> It was a demand like two days.

1:32:16

You'll have it before the holiday.

1:32:19

You'll have >> I want it in two days as long as people are very pumped about it.

1:32:23

I'll make sure you get I'll I'll make sure you guys get it. Awesome.

1:32:26

Put your name down and I'll make sure. >> We will. We will. >> Awesome. Well, great to hang out.

1:32:31

Congrats on on all the progress.

1:32:33

>> Yeah, really really fascinating tour of the ecosystem.

1:32:34

I appreciate you breaking it down for us. Thanks so much. >> Been fun, guys. You take care.

1:32:37

Wait, also I think obviously it's too late now, but is is Panos the first are you I think you're the first person from Amazon ever on our show. >> I think so.

1:32:47

I think >> we've had a thousand interviews this year. Here we go. >> Bring the damn dong. >> There we go. >> Congratulations.

1:32:55

>> It's great to have you. >> Thank you.

1:32:56

>> We'll we'll see you soon. >> We'll see you soon. Cheers. Have a good one.

1:32:59

Uh we have some breaking news that we got to cover.

1:33:01

Sam Alman has replied to his uh his post about erotic content and chatt says, "Okay, this tweet about upcoming changes to chat pt blew up on the erotica point much more than I thought it was going to.

1:33:19

>> I didn't think you didn't think posting e r o t i ca was going to >> There are there are so many other words that you could have used to kind of like, you know, get there.

1:33:29

could have just said romantic companion. >> Exactly.

1:33:32

We have said that when the entire time we were discussing uh Grock, we like that this is a clean show.

1:33:36

We like that we >> I've never I never wanted to say that word on the show. >> Exactly.

1:33:41

So when we talk about this, we say adult content, adult romantic companion.

1:33:45

We don't go to the other words.

1:33:47

Um but yes, he went there. He said E R O T I A.

1:33:49

He typed it out into his ex app, sent the tweet.

1:33:52

Uh, and he said it was meant to be just one example of us allowing more user freedom for adults.

1:34:00

Here is an effort to better communicate it.

1:34:02

I'm going to read it and you tell me, is this better communication, Jordy?

1:34:05

Uh, he says, "As we have said earlier, we are making a decision to prioritize safety over privacy and freedom for teenagers, and we are not loosening any policies related to mental health.

1:34:18

This is a new and powerful technology and we believe minors need significant protection. I love that point.

1:34:25

Uh we also care very much about the principle of treating adult users like adults.

1:34:29

As AI becomes more important in people's lives, allowing a lot of freedom for people to use AI in the ways that they want is an important part of our mission.

1:34:38

It does it doesn't apply across the board, of course.

1:34:42

For example, we will still not allow things that cause harm to others.

1:34:45

And we will treat users who are having mental health crises very different from users who are not without being paternalistic.

1:34:52

We will attempt to help users achieve their long-term goals.

1:34:54

But we are not the elected moral police of the world of the world.

1:34:59

In the same way that society differentiates other appropriate boundaries, R-rated movies for example, we want to do the same thing here.

1:35:08

Let's hear it for the MPAA rating system that's gaining popularity.

1:35:13

Yes, I want this so badly.

1:35:15

>> I just want to in the app store it should say Rrr rated. >> R-rated.

1:35:19

Oh, but that is not NC7 rated, which is a different thing.

1:35:22

And so we were debating this.

1:35:24

Uh is >> So you're a movie buff. >> Is No, no.

1:35:26

I mean, is is is Amazon's erotic content on the Kindle is that is that X-rated?

1:35:32

Is that the same as Only Fans?

1:35:34

Is that the same as a a an adult content video site?

1:35:37

like it does feel somewhat different.

1:35:39

Uh, and so I don't know, maybe this is a nod to staying in the R-rated category, not going further. I don't know. We'll see.

1:35:46

Uh, what's your reaction, Jordy, to this post?

1:35:51

>> Is it effective comms? Put on your Lulu hat.

1:35:54

>> Yeah, I mean, the problem is that 14 almost 14 million people saw yesterday's post.

1:35:59

You add that up with, you know, thousands of other posts and, you know, it >> really did blow up.

1:36:04

This post is going to get certainly get plenty of uh plenty of views, but um I think the the community has already taken it. >> I don't know.

1:36:16

I I I think I think the the December timeline there's a there's a lot of days between now and December.

1:36:23

Uh AGI might hit before then.

1:36:23

Uh but there's so much that could happen to tweak that policy before it goes out, really silo it. I don't know. We'll we'll have to see.

1:36:31

I I I can almost guarantee that when it rolls out, there will be crazy screenshots on the timeline that day of people getting it to do crazy stuff because people love jailbreaking this stuff.

1:36:40

They've already been doing it.

1:36:42

>> Anyway, let me tell you about Turbop Puffer.

1:36:44

Search every bite serverless vector and full text search build from first principles on object storage.

1:36:48

Fast 10x cheaper and extremely scalable.

1:36:51

You can load all your erotic content into Turbo Puffer.

1:36:55

Search it 10 times cheaper.

1:36:57

Um, and we have our >> our first inerson guest of the show.

1:37:00

We got Adam Ryan from Work Week, >> the legend. >> The legend. >> Bring it in.

1:37:08

>> It's the platform for professional networks.

1:37:10

Welcome to the show, Adam.

1:37:13

>> Second time, third time.

1:37:13

I've lost track, but thank you so much for joining us.

1:37:16

I'm going to turn this microphone here.

1:37:19

>> We're going to be talking about >> your strategy to bring erotica to professional networking. >> I've been waiting.

1:37:26

I've been waiting for this moment.

1:37:27

That's exactly what it's all about.

1:37:30

>> Actually, kick us back off.

1:37:32

>> This is the thesis of the whole company is that people wanted erotica and their work in the workplace.

1:37:36

>> Kick us back off with like the actual uh the actual overview of the company, how you introduce yourself uh these days >> and and the the quick history too for anybody that that met uh missed the last interview. >> Yeah.

1:37:46

Uh started the company four years ago.

1:37:49

Um and uh this guy was part of the the founding founding story of that.

1:37:53

And uh today, you know, one of the things that we learned along the way that uh everyone has focused on consumer behaviors of hey, I trust individuals over institutions and beauty, fashion, gaming.

1:38:09

>> There's a Kylie Jenner out there. There's nobody in work. Yeah.

1:38:13

>> Uh if you're VP of marketing, if you run a hospital or health system, who do you go to?

1:38:18

uh if you're into into beauty, you have Kylie.

1:38:20

You don't have anyone else in that space. Yeah.

1:38:22

So, that was the first problem we wanted to go solve.

1:38:23

And then we thought it was potentially because of money, bandwidth, like this what these people are busy.

1:38:28

They already make a lot of money.

1:38:30

That's why they don't create content.

1:38:32

>> We realized that there's there's an actual just platform missing.

1:38:34

Uh people aren't going on LinkedIn being like, "Hey, I'm prepping for a riff. Can someone help me?"

1:38:40

Uh and uh all these platforms are open networks.

1:38:43

can't necessarily have the conversations with your peers that you want to.

1:38:47

All the other options are mostly analog. Mhm.

1:38:52

So, so putting it in in uh my terms, you're building you effectively a professional network, but hyper specific to people like within basically certain I don't know if the right way to say it is bands, but if you want if you're a VP of marketing and you want to interact only with other VPs of marketing, like work week is the platform that you can do that on. >> Yeah.

1:39:14

So, we've built a horizontal platform and then we verticalized it by the profession.

1:39:17

So we have one for uh uh in healthcare, marketing, HR, e-commerce, etc.

1:39:23

And so if you're in if you're a kind of senior leader in one of those spaces, we verify you so that prevents the bots, the erotica uh as uh as well as uh make sure that you can kind of have those those trusted discussions and >> I mean I I imagine that uh with the with the erotica discussion that the HR group support group is probably going wild.

1:39:46

All the HR leaders across the Fortune 500 HR leaders are like, "What are we going to do about this?"

1:39:51

Because we've given Chad GBT to everyone and then they're going to be able to use it for whatever they want. >> Yeah.

1:39:55

And I'm I'm assuming on business plans you can just turn off that like >> this is maybe 40 chess.

1:40:03

You got to upgrade to the sub uh to the enterprise solution now because you got to be able to fine-tune your entire organization so we can keep intern Tyler off of the off of the adult version.

1:40:14

Tyler's been grinning this whole series.

1:40:15

Uh, he's just wrapping up. >> That's funny. Um, yeah.

1:40:20

I mean, I've heard I've heard there's like I've heard crazy stories of value in these like niches.

1:40:25

There's some phrase like there's riches there's riches in the niches.

1:40:29

There's reishes in the niches, something like that.

1:40:31

Uh, I heard about one company that was just doing pure Slack communities.

1:40:35

communities. So they would go and find all of the chief of staffs across a whole bunch of different startups, put them all in a Slack community that they had to pay to be part of, but then when they got a request from their company, oh, I need to, you know, fix up the HVAC

1:40:49

system, they'd be able to just go to this Slack channel and say, hey, who who else is, you know, managing an office and needs to figure out a regular delivery schedule of uh filtered water or, you know, a better Wi-Fi provider or something like that. And that makes a

1:41:02

And that makes a lot of sense.

1:41:02

Same thing with VP marketing, a whole bunch of other stuff.

1:41:05

Hey, we're we're we're talking um how do you think about the the like if there's this continuum between like LinkedIn's this super broad category or you have someone like you know a Lenny a Substack creator with a show uh that's like you know this individual off in this world versus like these like curated communities like where do you see like the water cooler existing for the for the average user?

1:41:29

>> I think there's there's the traditional social networks which are all free to join. >> Yeah.

1:41:33

And then you have the chief of staff one. Silva owns that one. That's a subscription. >> Okay.

1:41:39

>> Uh most of those, you know, it's the YPO but for X.

1:41:41

Like they've all created those but subscription.

1:41:44

>> There's really only been one company that's done verification with making it free. >> Interesting.

1:41:50

>> Uh which is Docimity uh professional network for doctors.

1:41:55

>> They're like a 10ish >> 14 billion company today.

1:41:56

Produces more cash flow than Airbnb since starting and only raised 50 million.

1:42:01

Wow, >> hell of a company. Go buy the stock. >> Not financial advice.

1:42:07

>> When he said buy the stock, it was not financial advice.

1:42:10

>> Uh and and we're really following a lot of that blueprint of how do you how do you build actually a platform where you create engagement loops like a social network, but you still have the verification. >> Got it.

1:42:20

So >> because the because if you have a bunch of VPs of marketing in a in a on a network that the impressions against that audience are are worth thousands of times potentially the average impression on a LinkedIn, right?

1:42:34

>> Well, and I think it's to the uh Alexis on the show yesterday talked about the dead internet theory.

1:42:37

It's like the perfect time uh for trying to solve that is like how do you actually know who's doing what? And I use Reddit.

1:42:44

I love Reddit, but I used to be able to tell are you smart by your reply?

1:42:48

And now with chatbt I'm like >> have you put effort into >> and if you did I'm like all right that's now I'm like I have no idea who this is and so the kind of whole trust of the internet's I think shifting particularly when it comes to work like really care about who's giving you advice. >> Yeah.

1:43:03

Isaac friend of the show posted a couple days ago do what Rya did but for a social network humans only human verification hard to get into no idea how to do it but feels intuitively like it could work.

1:43:15

Uh, and I love seeing this because work, this has been work week's thesis for years now.

1:43:20

You guys have been building towards it.

1:43:22

So, uh, people are are finally, uh, realizing.

1:43:28

Uh, what do you think about some of the recent, uh, changes on X.

1:43:29

They're adding functionality that shows where the user is based.

1:43:36

There's probably a lot of reason good reasons for this and then some bad reasons.

1:43:40

I think uh some of the concerns for people that are in areas like the UK that don't tolerate free speech, you could be targeted uh or or or authorities there could be trying to come after accounts.

1:43:50

But um it's like such a X is such an interesting platform because we effectively all use it as a professional network and a place to talk about >> our the industry or various industries broadly.

1:44:03

Uh but at the same time, it's like John compared it yesterday to being a dive bar, right?

1:44:07

It's like uh it's the people are getting in fights all the time.

1:44:12

There's like, you know, uh that that shady guy in the corner that, you know, it's got a history. He's got a history.

1:44:20

>> Um but uh yeah, I don't know.

1:44:23

>> I mean, that's what Nikita's doing.

1:44:23

If you're an open network that's free, you're going to get bots. >> Yeah.

1:44:28

>> And then you also are going to get, you know, people abusing.

1:44:30

We love I on Twitter all the time, but the >> Twitter lost its trust identity when they started allowing more bots and then also the blue check mark.

1:44:40

It changed the the verification process a little bit um where you could buy your own uh verification, but Russian bots still have credit cards.

1:44:49

>> I remember I got I remember I got verified and then six weeks later they did the they did >> spent years too like texted grandma.

1:44:57

>> I finally went through the flow.

1:44:57

found like old you have to you used to just have to like five news articles or something about you.

1:45:04

>> So I found some old news articles and process got approved and then a week later it was like oh everyone everyone thinks uh give us your take on the current state of of independent media.

1:45:17

You uh were a key player in building the hustle.

1:45:21

There was a time that everybody was saying I want to build the morning brew for X or the hustle for X.

1:45:25

there was some great businesses built off of that.

1:45:31

Are they are many of them still thriving?

1:45:33

Uh what is the current state of the maybe start with like the newsletter media business?

1:45:39

>> Yeah, I mean I think what uh Substack has done uh has democratized access.

1:45:45

I think like ultimately what people always come down in media is you need to like help people make money, help people get eyeballs or help people make content faster.

1:45:51

And like you solve one of those things, you have a decent business, solve all three, you have a good one.

1:45:56

Uh, and what's happening is, you know, I think the independent side is starting to rise because platforms like Beehive and Substack have started to really allow that to be the case.

1:46:04

I think we're starting to to make our own case there for for more uh specific kind of uh verticals.

1:46:11

But the uh I think consumers in the end are the ones telling the telling the truth.

1:46:15

There's like Lenny is getting more more money on a subscription basis than most publishers in B2B trade publications have been around for like 50 years. Yeah.

1:46:26

>> So consumers wallets always end up where >> walk me through trunk fans existence his business writes on business with work week. Uh not at work weekek. Is he an employee? Is he on the network?

1:46:40

Like he has a newsletter. How does that work?

1:46:42

Trunk was one of the first one of the first creators that work. >> Yeah.

1:46:49

Well, so we signed him at the hustle.

1:46:51

Uh I had known him for a while.

1:46:54

Uh, and he actually was a big part of like our our shtick is cuz when we brought him on at the hustle, he was so funny and so much better than everyone else.

1:47:04

>> He changed the engagement of a newsletter with 1.

1:47:06

5 million people like >> like overnight.

1:47:08

I mean, it was like everyone just started like reading more and opening more.

1:47:11

Um, ads went up and so uh we actually that was like a big part of is like one person could totally you have like the 100x creator >> which everyone talks about developers. um today.

1:47:22

Uh one, he's like the best dad in the world.

1:47:25

Uh you can't mention Trunk and not talk about TJ Trunk Jr.

1:47:27

Uh and uh I don't think he's ever been on a uh an all hands call for any company I've ever been a part of with him, but uh you know, that's just kind of his vibe of what he does.

1:47:39

Uh and he comes with comes with it all.

1:47:41

But yeah, I think he's got rockar.

1:47:44

But is he an example of someone who's who's stewarding a a smaller community of professionals that could be given some sort of moniker?

1:47:52

>> He he works more on the work weekek side of helping us.

1:47:54

Uh so what we have a lot is we have people like Blake Madden who covers healthcare. Yeah.

1:48:01

>> If you're in healthcare, you know who Blake is. >> Okay.

1:48:03

>> Very hard to get someone viral in covering niche healthcare.

1:48:08

>> Trung's the guy to help us do that. >> Okay.

1:48:10

So he's a little bit more like Tom. >> He's a halo. He's a Halo creator. Got it. Okay.

1:48:13

And then there are specific niches.

1:48:15

>> Is there a power I imagine there's some sort of power law to those uh to the various communities that you have like what's at the top like where are you really like dominating >> about like 30% of revenue is HR 9%'s healthcare but if we look at like TAM it's actually pretty indexed pretty equally of like how many people we think we can get per per network.

1:48:34

>> And then within HR for example are there multiple communities multiple creators uh or is it all just one big pool?

1:48:38

How do you think about that?

1:48:40

>> So we think about it more like a network.

1:48:42

So, uh, Safe Space is the HR network.

1:48:44

And I think this is part of it.

1:48:46

You have to use the lexic kind of lingo like >> Blake uses very different language than HR like they just talked about.

1:48:50

And so each one's developed uh to match that.

1:48:55

And uh, and then within the network, we have creators.

1:48:58

And so we believe if you want to write for write for HR leaders, we're the best place to get the eyeballs.

1:49:04

And then we have our own ad platform that helps fuel that that they that they can get money off of.

1:49:09

Are there other uh are there other kind of services or or activities that are kind of I don't know advertised or shared across the entire platform?

1:49:18

Obviously ad sales seems like one of them but actual software or do you say hey Trung like there's no better product than just posting on X.

1:49:27

So we're not going to try and build our own short form text app.

1:49:32

>> We just let them do their own thing. >> Yeah.

1:49:34

Use your use whatever tools best for the job.

1:49:35

If you want to be on Substack or a Slack, >> we use our own newsletter.

1:49:38

So newsletters uh newsletters particularly is is that and that's our way that we we use content to drive people into the networks. >> Yep.

1:49:46

And then you can shuffle people around through the different networks.

1:49:48

>> Not that different than how Substack's now doing it for theirs, but ours is more vertical. >> Yeah. Yeah.

1:49:52

And theirs is more like news driven. Makes sense.

1:49:54

>> Political and wanted your take on on uh David Ellison's recent actions with Paramount and Sky Dance.

1:50:00

A lot of people thought that the price they paid for the free press was crazy.

1:50:04

I think we came in the defense of it.

1:50:07

when you look at it from a talent acquisition standpoint and having a very high value audience, but I wanted wanted to hear how you thought about it.

1:50:19

>> The the merger itself, I mean, it allows them to compete.

1:50:22

I think like taking a big step out, everyone wants to win streaming.

1:50:25

I mean, that's like the name of the game.

1:50:27

And so, it allows Paramount to now finally have more IP to compete with Disney Plus and Netflix.

1:50:32

while they're all and Netflix just announced I think today a partnership with Spotify to start bringing more podcasts on like it is an IP race of the streaming uh and Paramount was losing and I think this allows them to do that.

1:50:44

allows them to do that. So that's I think the bigger picture is actually that >> free press is like a rounding error as part of the >> it's 150 million total and they're buying you know 12 of revenue of that it's not the end of the world I think that was also uh if you're going

1:51:00

>> is that their was that the revenue number >> uh 12 to 15 I think yeah >> it was higher than 20 but >> um yeah it was around like 10x multiple I think or 10 to 12 um but they um I also think when you're starting your own company which basically David Ellison is like you want your own people. >> Sure. >> Sure.

1:51:17

>> And that's you're going to you're going to make sure you you build the right foundation.

1:51:21

And >> yeah, >> that's that's >> Yeah.

1:51:23

Everybody's focused on what is uh what what did they pay for the free press, you should be focusing on how much more valuable will Barry Weiss make CBS.

1:51:32

>> This is no different like in a totally different world and very different numbers.

1:51:35

But then Zuck saying like I need an AI team.

1:51:36

I'm going to go get the people that I want to get.

1:51:38

He's saying I want to have the best editorial team.

1:51:42

I'm going to go get the people I want to have. >> Yeah.

1:51:43

Do you think the the bigger platforms, the public platforms have kind of uh become less relevant in those niche professional networks?

1:51:51

I feel like if I went back like 10 years on Twitter, there would be like hashtag like marketing Tuesday and all and I would see a bunch of marketing people talk about marketing that >> on Tuesday. >> Yeah. Yeah.

1:52:03

Basically, it was like that crazy, wasn't it?

1:52:05

Maybe it was marketing Monday or something.

1:52:08

>> Manif manifestation Mondays. That was a thing.

1:52:10

There was a thing around like hashtags, chats around certain things and you'd see a lot of those people that were just talking about their specific like but now X feels like teapot political news like there's there's there's it's at a much higher level than any sort of niche.

1:52:26

>> The the irony I think was like when they went all algorithms first they lost the sense of communities.

1:52:30

Um, and when you used to follow people and that's who you did, it was like your people and with the algorithms, it totally changed the dynamic of the product, but because it was the same brand and logo, no one thought about them differently.

1:52:40

It's still it's I think it makes the feed more interesting, but we definitely lost some >> and they make more money.

1:52:47

I mean, like you're you're there for engagement and your dowo goes up as Nikita makes that algorithm better.

1:52:53

So, like that's all he cares about.

1:52:55

Um, and I think that's like ultimately what their incentives are.

1:52:57

I do think like LinkedIn, you know, I know you guys are huge there and really rely on the sports center of LinkedIn, so hate to hate to say this, but you know, I think like 10 years ago someone be like, "Hey, I saw your connect on LinkedIn.

1:53:11

Can you make that introduction?" I'd be like, "Oh, yeah. I I know."

1:53:13

Today I'm like, "I have no clue who that is."

1:53:15

I think there's a negative network effect happening across most social.

1:53:18

The more people add it, the worse it gets. >> Yeah.

1:53:21

No, that makes a ton of sense.

1:53:22

>> We were talking off air about how Only Fans hasn't been able to sell itself.

1:53:27

They've been trying for a long time now.

1:53:30

The news yesterday obviously uh you know other companies leaning into that broad category of monetizing romantic chatting which Only Fans has done >> better than probably any company in the world.

1:53:44

Uh when XAI was leaning into romantic companions earlier this year, we were like it made sense for them to do.

1:53:52

they needed a strategy to uh drive, you know, new user signups, engagement, subscriptions, etc.

1:53:58

But uh why do you think have you been surprised that there's no buyer for Only Fans?

1:54:06

>> Yeah, it's like the on a a cash flow per headcount.

1:54:08

I think it's the best company in the world.

1:54:10

Um >> until what what is it? Tether tether >> 1.

1:54:13

9 billion I think Only Fans does in cash flow a year with like 70 employees or something. It's like absurd.

1:54:18

Um, I know the owner takes like a f he pays himself a 500 million dividend check a year and they leave like plenty in the bank, but they've never they can't take themselves public.

1:54:28

They've not been able to find a buyer because of the content.

1:54:31

And now the irony is most of it's just a face, but they allow they've created the tooling um the C old CEO of Only Fans, uh, former colleague of mine, she's amazing.

1:54:41

She created so many tools for the models to make content in a safe way and then to monetize it better.

1:54:48

And now they've advanced further to where like it's a chatbot.

1:54:51

They essentially like not even having real conversation anymore.

1:54:54

It's not that different than what we're talking about for OpenAI.

1:54:59

>> Um, and it's just branding.

1:54:59

And I think that's the, you know, X being the everything app.

1:55:02

You're like, I can kind of see that.

1:55:04

That's that's I think your point earlier about the Apple comparison.

1:55:07

This, this is a little bit of a tarnish on that comparison, I think, for OpenAI. >> Yeah. >> Yeah.

1:55:12

Well, we have some breaking news we got to cover before our next guest hops on.

1:55:16

But thank you so much for stopping by.

1:55:18

What's the breaking news? There's a ton of these. Uh Mr.

1:55:20

Beast has filed a trademark launching his own bank. It will be called Mr. Beast Financial.

1:55:27

He clearly saw our post about Arabore and was like, I got to get on the action. Just kidding.

1:55:32

Uh the application was filed two days ago. >> Oh, but it's real.

1:55:36

>> It happened this morning.

1:55:36

I saw what's your what's your take on this?

1:55:38

It feels like if you want to monetize an extremely broad audience of young people, maybe just creating a bank that you can monetize deposits is a fairly aligned way to do that.

1:55:50

It's kind of like >> I guess. Yeah.

1:55:52

I mean, >> I just don't know that. I don't know.

1:55:56

>> There's like a lane of trust sooner or later that like you're just going to screw like you're like, why do I want a Mr. Beast bank? I don't know.

1:56:02

>> I mean, the the the lesson from the Mr.

1:56:04

beast bar or the the hamburgers is that it it has zero price discrimination.

1:56:08

And so if you get a rich person in your audience, like you're only going to be able to charge them a $5 for a can.

1:56:17

>> Okay, but but let's break it down.

1:56:18

>> A bank you can actually get shipping basically.

1:56:22

>> But yeah, but but think about like wealthy people are not going to see this bank launch and decide I need this.

1:56:27

I'm going to move a bunch of >> think decades. Think in decades. A kid watches Mr.

1:56:33

Beast is like, "Yeah, I need my first checking account. I'll set up Mr. Beast checking."

1:56:37

And then 20 years later, they're like, "Yeah, I should probably switch to something more serious.

1:56:42

It's kind of ridiculous that I'm still on beast financial, but like if he's actually a bank charter charter, it means he can get into doing mortgages and like hardcore.

1:56:54

>> I mean, I think like that all it always sounds good in like a board meeting." Yeah.

1:56:57

>> And then you like don't care about the product and you don't actually make it differentiated and then you're like cool.

1:57:02

When distribution's like your only moat, it's not a moat. >> Yeah.

1:57:05

I So, so I guess I guess if he runs the numbers on like, okay, if the average person in my audience is like 16, >> Yeah.

1:57:12

>> how much money do they spend a month, >> I bet I bet teenagers will think this is cool and will want to use it.

1:57:19

>> And you can probably just run the numbers and calculate like, okay, the average teenager spends uh their parents are going to send their their uh allowance or maybe they have a job, they send it into the account, maybe they spend a couple hundred dollars a month.

1:57:32

I don't know what teenagers spend these days.

1:57:33

I I was I remember back in my day it was like, you know, allowance is like $20.

1:57:39

>> Um and and so it gets deposited in there and then they spend it and he can give them rewards and that's cool and cash back and he can monetize some of that that I don't I don't really believe like I became an adult and I was like >> I want to use a real bank. I'm an adult, you know?

1:57:56

Like I I just remember I I migrated from like a credit union in my hometown to like >> uh I want to You're using a card all the time. It's coming up.

1:58:05

Like you think you're like a a a kid that goes into college is like yeah I'm still using my Mr. Beast like debit card.

1:58:14

>> I do think it's like a lunchables competitor and a bank.

1:58:16

Like know your audience a little bit. >> Yeah.

1:58:20

But I so so I guess like from from the bull case is that if you can get millions of kids to to just be using Beast Financial as their as their >> I mean as a tech called it's technically called Mr.

1:58:32

Beast Financial which is I I I think I like Beast Financial more than Mr. Beast Financial.

1:58:37

Uh the filing was submitted on intent to use basis which under trademark law means there are genuine plans to bring this to life.

1:58:43

So >> I think he should have went with Jimmy his like a gr grown-up version of the bank.

1:58:49

clearly got it clearly got Will Manitis up in arms.

1:58:52

He's thinking about it because he says he's calling the top on incubations subweeting Mr. Beast. Just kidding.

1:58:58

He's probably not subweeting Mr. Beast.

1:58:59

But uh Will Manitis did call the top on incubations.

1:59:02

He says every guy I've talked to in the past 6 months that even vaguely worked at a hot company is now incubating four, five, six companies.

1:59:10

Who are all these hired CEOs?

1:59:12

Why is the Why is the market equilibrium that no one wants to go allin?

1:59:18

They just want to clip 20%.

1:59:18

And so, yeah, >> cubations are incredibly hard.

1:59:24

>> He says there are amazing.

1:59:25

>> They're way more work, way more work than just investing.

1:59:27

Jordy and I spent some time trying that. It's tough. Uh, it's tough game. >> Individuals.

1:59:33

I cannot say their names here or they will blow my car up.

1:59:36

>> You are not incubating anything if what you are doing is clipping 20% for an idea and some intros. You are not the tax man.

1:59:43

The real incubation platforms put a huge amount of work in.

1:59:45

Uh what's he talking about?

1:59:48

Like Snowflake at Sutter Hill.

1:59:49

Like that's a real incubation.

1:59:50

I I guess like you could kind of >> Thrive drive Oscar.

1:59:55

>> There's a healthcare one that's done really well that like they only focus on like certain healthcare um one.

1:59:58

Um but their like model was like they had no capital risk. >> Yeah.

2:00:04

And they're also like a platform that's done this and they take it very seriously.

2:00:07

We did we did talk to somebody who incubated like what 200 companies in a year or something. It was >> Yeah.

2:00:12

>> Yeah. There was a there was a there was a there was a there was a a studio that made so many companies and were so aggressive around how much equity they would take that every tier one announce like we will never fund these companies

2:00:25

>> because when a CEO walks in there he's like how much do you own CEO founder >> they're like 10% >> 10% like who owns the rest >> and also like are you the like 199th of the 200 CEOs or like number five >> yeah I think that's actually >> I I I'm coming around to the Mr. Beast Beast uh financial.

2:00:45

>> You like it, you're bullish.

2:00:47

>> I I'm not >> What's the terminal value?

2:00:48

>> I think that they can.

2:00:48

So, this idea came up in 2021 2022 during the fintech craze.

2:00:55

It was like >> it's not that hard to start a a >> software product that can take deposits as I mean in this case it sounds like he's may maybe trying to be a chartered bank.

2:01:08

>> He's trying to go to the like base.

2:01:08

I mean, it's unclear, but who knows?

2:01:10

It's literally, >> but still, it's like if you just run the numbers on like how many million uh accounts you can get open up, what the average deposit size, how much they're going to be spending on a recurring basis.

2:01:22

I And then and then the even the um partnerships that he'd be able to drive around like being becoming a referral partner for Netflix and you know, >> yeah, to be clear, I don't think it's I don't think it's confirmed that it is truly a bank. It could be Mr. be financial.

2:01:39

Get some financial advice.

2:01:42

>> It would be like a clever idea and like I would be supportive of this.

2:01:43

Like you buy one of his feastable lunchables, you get like a nickel uh in a savings account. Yeah.

2:01:51

>> You keep going or something like that. >> Flip it around.

2:01:53

You pay the for the Lunchable with $1.

2:01:55

If you don't pay for the rest of the Lunchable, Mr.

2:01:58

Beast comes and personally breaks your legs, becomes a lone shark. That's another option. But I don't know. We'll see.

2:02:03

Um, in other news, uh, on the way back to the United States from NATO's defense minister's meeting, the Secretary of War Hegsth's plane made an unscheduled landing in the United Kingdom due to a crack in the aircraft windshield.

2:02:15

The plane landed based on standards, procedures, and everyone is on board is safe. Thank God. Uh, what a crazy story.

2:02:24

Uh, crack in the windshield.

2:02:24

That is, uh, that is a very crazy moment.

2:02:27

Um, in other news, uh, an exciting milestone in AI from science.

2:02:32

Sundar Pachai was probably holding this in his back pocket for when OpenAI does something that's negative aura.

2:02:39

Uh Sundar Sundar busted this out and said our C2S scale 27B foundation model built with Yale and based on GMA or Gemma then generated a novel hypothesis about cancer cellular cellular behavior which scientists experimentally validated in living cells with more preclinical and clinical tests.

2:03:01

This discovery may reveal a promising new pathway for developing therapies to fight cancer. >> He he he dropped it.

2:03:09

>> Oh, just a coincidence. >> Just a coincidence. >> They're doing that. >> You absolutely dog.

2:03:13

Tyler, tell me more about this.

2:03:15

Like what is actually going on?

2:03:16

Do you have you dug into this at all?

2:03:18

>> Uh I haven't read the full paper, but I mean it is there is like a stark distinction between this and what Sam was talking about, especially with all the um Gemini 3 rumors going on.

2:03:24

It's like this is the most cracked model of all time. >> Interesting.

2:03:29

So I don't maybe it's just like this is just maybe maybe it's just like a vague post as a blog post.

2:03:32

This is interesting paper vague papers now.

2:03:39

>> I mean you see that with a lot of new papers where it's like oh we have this new way of doing that's way better but we're not going to really get into the details obviously we don't want to share.

2:03:47

>> We are sponsored by Google AI studio the fastest way from prompt to production with Gemini chat with models code monitor usage.

2:03:55

You're going to hang out for you can hang out.

2:03:57

You get to interview the next person. >> I'm having fun. I'm loving it.

2:04:00

Uh, this is an interesting post from Brendan Buck.

2:04:04

He says, "Here's a telling sign of where we are on day 15.

2:04:06

There are zero stories about the blank in both the print New York Times and print Wall Street Journals. What is blank?" >> I have no idea.

2:04:16

>> The government is shut down.

2:04:17

>> Oh, the government shutdown. Yeah, that's right.

2:04:20

>> I'm getting a new passport and I have no idea if I'm going to get it in time.

2:04:21

I I paid for uh it to be expedited because I have to go to Europe uh unfortunately.

2:04:26

I mean, obviously, it's a fantastic event, but I never like leaving America.

2:04:32

>> Uh but it was it did rise to the occasion and I I need I need a new passport and I'm not sure if I'll be able to get it if the government is shut down.

2:04:40

>> But are there really no new articles about this? No news.

2:04:43

>> It does feel a lot less >> like newsworthy.

2:04:46

>> I think a lot of people just don't like the government and so they're like, "Yeah, shut it down. We don't need it. I'm over the government. See you. >> See you.

2:04:54

>> I do think most of those uh it we'll get I heard this uh uh most of the departments had four to six weeks of funding for their employees. >> Okay. So they can hang out.

2:05:04

>> So basically for like fourish weeks they're >> no one's paycheck is affected quite yet because they have no reserves.

2:05:09

Once that happens I think it starts to get noisy. >> Okay.

2:05:12

Well we do have our next guest in the reream waiting room.

2:05:14

Adam, thank you so much for coming on the show.

2:05:16

Thank you for visiting dome.

2:05:17

Uh, we have Eric Whitman from Visco coming on the show next.

2:05:23

He's in the reream waiting room.

2:05:25

We'll bring him into the TBP and Ultradome. How are you doing? >> What's going on? >> Good to see you. >> Doing great. How you doing, guys? Good to see you.

2:05:32

>> Thanks so much for hopping on the show. >> Great to have you.

2:05:34

>> Uh, give us a give us a state of the union with Visco.

2:05:36

I I think a lot of people are familiar with the product.

2:05:39

Uh, they know the the general story, but I'd love to get just kind of the update and kind of level set for where the business is today.

2:05:45

>> Yeah, appreciate that.

2:05:45

Uh yeah, look, Visco, it's it's been a minute, right?

2:05:49

Visco has been around for 14 years now. Hard to believe. >> Success.

2:05:53

Oh, that's what we love to see. An overnight success. >> Yeah, I love it. >> Yeah.

2:05:58

So, uh you know, and you know, we're we're a very proud company that's been here supporting creatives and photographers and creators overall uh for, you know, well over a decade.

2:06:08

And what, you know, we love our jobs.

2:06:10

what, you know, we love our jobs. I mean we love building for creatives and you know we've seen various moments in time uh come about for Visco but I think especially right now with the world and what's happening with AI you know right now people especially photographers and

2:06:27

creatives are looking for a company that has their back and is building tools for them is really helping them find ways to be successful whether it's just things doing things on the side or making a full-time living uh as a creative So that's really what we've been up to. >> Cool. Uh take us through the most recent >> Cool.

2:06:44

Uh take us through the most recent updates and then I have a bunch of uh uh ideas to pitch you, get feedback on, uh understand more about I mean basically how I can level up my photography workflow. >> Yeah, I love it.

2:06:57

Uh yeah, so uh you know obviously AI's uh is impacting the whole industry and uh a lot of photographers and a lot of creatives and you know our perspective has always been how do we preserve the craft?

2:07:09

how do we preserve the artistry but also bringing some of those benefits that AI can provide to support you know the creative process.

2:07:20

Uh so the last couple years we've been releasing tools like for example Visco Hub which is actually a visual search engine powered by AI that makes it really easy for brands and people to find and hire photographers based upon their content.

2:07:35

Uh we earlier this year launched a product called Visco Canvas.

2:07:40

And if you think about a lot of creative processes, especially when you're working with clients, there's always this ideation phase and a mood boarding phase.

2:07:47

And so we were one of the first to come out with a specific moodboarding tool that not only had generative as a part of it, but also allowed you to search this amazing community of literally 300 plus million people on Visco and their content and then bring your own content to the four.

2:08:03

So really a hybrid uh in a hybrid way.

2:08:06

And then uh today uh big news is we've just come out with a whole new suite of tools.

2:08:12

We call it AI lab because we know a lot of this technology as we hear about on your show almost daily continues to evolve this massively rapid clip and I see the gong getting ready. So AI lab, >> thank you.

2:08:29

I was wondering if I was going to get a gong and now I >> love product launches here.

2:08:32

Okay, here's here here's a here's a uh a workflow that I struggle with uh regularly and I want you to walk me through how I could how I could level it up.

2:08:41

So, um, I'll often go out and shoot photos and I shoot RAWs and then I get to this point where I need to go and color correct and edit the RAWs and I hate that process and I if I bring it into Photoshop, there's that auto button and it never gets it right.

2:08:59

And I feel like there's room for AI to fine-tune on what it takes to actually take a raw image and then make it look great in color correction.

2:09:09

Um, that's not generative AI.

2:09:12

I don't want to regenerate the image.

2:09:14

I want the actual pixels there.

2:09:14

I just want to understand, you know, the different looks kind of like AI filters.

2:09:22

I've tried different apps and a lot of the apps, they they kind of like hit everything with a different colored hammer and they all get really extreme and I'm and then I see ads for like, oh, I got this filter pack and it looks great, but then you apply it and it's not right on your photos cuz you shot slightly differently.

2:09:36

So what do you think the future of like just you still want to go capture a real image, a raw image, but then you just want to speed up that workflow of the post process once you have a great raw. >> I love it.

2:09:50

I love this example because actually the future is here now.

2:09:52

So actually with Visco today you can import those raw images in and we actually have some ML built into the product today that we will look at that image that you have and we will actually recommend a set of presets.

2:10:06

So we have hundreds of different presets.

2:10:08

Some of them are the world's best film emulation presets all the way down to presets that our own color scientists have created that are really beautiful.

2:10:16

I mean, a lot of these ads that you see for preset packs, they're basically people that have tried to copy our our work that's been around, like I said, for 10 plus years.

2:10:24

And there are still photographers that are doing work for National Geographic, big campaigns like that wonderful fruit company in Certino, and they are still using our color grading presets as their default starting point so that they can just get that great look much more quickly.

2:10:42

So, the future is here already today, John.

2:10:44

It's uh it starts with Visco into our Visco studio.

2:10:47

You can import your RAWs use for this photo to automatically pick the right preset and then you take your creative process from there.

2:10:55

Again, we're not trying to get in the way uh from an AI perspective.

2:10:56

We want AI to be supportive of your overall creative process.

2:11:02

>> What is the general sentiment in the photographer community today around AI?

2:11:10

We had an we had one uh shoot earlier this year with a photographer who was so deathly afraid of AI.

2:11:16

He was hoping that the government would regulate it so that certain products could only be like legally had to be authentically photographed.

2:11:25

Uh because he was worried that people would just be generating a variety of images of them.

2:11:30

Meanwhile, we have like an insatiable demand for photography where we do shoots all the time for different media things.

2:11:37

Even I think in my home, right, I don't I could go and generate hundreds of images of my family and yet I still we still hire photographers a few times a year to take family photos.

2:11:48

And so >> I even even if the models get 100 times better, which I don't even know if they can get 100 times better because they're already so photoreal.

2:11:57

I just think that photographers that are craftd driven that like that genuinely enjoy photography and that want to uh capture moments will always have uh a job.

2:12:08

That may that might be naive, but that's my current feeling today.

2:12:14

And I'm curious how the broad community on Visco is thinking about it.

2:12:20

>> I I I I think that's right.

2:12:20

I mean, look, I I think we all should all recognize there's tension today, >> right?

2:12:25

And and I I I think back like look, I've I've been in this industry for 30 plus years.

2:12:29

I've seen a lot of hype and, you know, where it ends up, you know, resolving to itself like e-commerce, right?

2:12:35

When it first started happening, everyone thought, oh, brickandmortar stores are going to go away.

2:12:40

The reality is 16% of overall commerce h happens through e-commerce today.

2:12:45

the rest is still very much brick and mortar.

2:12:46

So I do think you know when AI and especially generative AI came out you did have a lot of photographers that saw it as a threat and there are certain categories where realistically it is a threat.

2:12:58

Stock photography is a perfect example.

2:12:59

I think this is why you see companies like uh Shuttertock and Getty are coming together because you know there's going to be there already is duress in the stock photography market but as you're saying like there are different segments of photography.

2:13:10

I mean, the photography services market is $105 billion a year.

2:13:15

Uh, it's going to grow to 160 $150 billion a year uh by 2030.

2:13:22

So, it's still a growing market, which most people don't realize.

2:13:24

Uh, so I think the question's always been, well, how is AI going to affect me and my specific line of work?

2:13:30

I think where more and more photographers are now rationalizing is they're now starting to realize actually how helpful it can be to them, especially for the mundane tasks that they really don't like.

2:13:42

So, we were talking about color grading and sort of the editing part of the process.

2:13:48

You know, there are aspects of the editing process that are really mundane.

2:13:51

Like, if you're a wedding photographer and you're shooting 10,000 photos, how do I quickly callull through that?

2:13:56

Today, it's very much a manual process and it does not give photographers energy.

2:14:00

Um, but there are more and more companies that are coming out with calling tools that will automatically apply um your look and also because they've learned what your look has be as has has become over years and years of editing and they'll also just take out the shots that aren't really, you know, like you see an airplane in the background, okay, take that one out, right?

2:14:20

That it just AI is is supportive of that.

2:14:23

I think another area that I think is very emerging and you're going to see a lot more from Visco on this front.

2:14:28

I I can't wait to come back and bang that gong a few more times with y'all.

2:14:32

But is that, you know, a lot of photographers are excellent at their craft.

2:14:36

They're excellent at the artistry and what they do.

2:14:39

What they are not great at is marketing, >> managing their business.

2:14:43

And so they're just mundane tasks around managing customer relationships and responding back to people and making sure that your your edit list is appropriately organized, like all that stuff.

2:14:56

Qualifying clients is another great example.

2:14:58

So we we actually uh announced a a product called Visco Workspace that is the whole point is to help photographers effectively manage their business and we are rapidly AI enabling that product so that we can again take a lot of those mundane tasks out.

2:15:14

So that's where as we think about things, it's very much about craft and integrity, being very humanentric from a photography creator standpoint, but AI is going to assist you in a lot of those mundane tasks.

2:15:27

And our goal is to be that platform for photographers.

2:15:32

>> Did you always know you were going to come in and and build uh SAS at Visco?

2:15:37

Was that was that the was that the plan?

2:15:38

I mean B2B SAS specifically, obviously you were at Atlassian, then you were at Figma.

2:15:42

you you're kind of a SAS uh demagod, you know, George. >> I do love it, man.

2:15:48

I can't I can't look at a business and not think SAS. I'm not going to lie. >> Uh I have >> us, too.

2:15:56

There's there's a few things better in the world.

2:16:00

>> I have I I have a question about uh AI and uh the the trajectory of smartphone photography.

2:16:05

So, um I I I recently got the latest iPhone, 48 megapixels, three different cameras.

2:16:12

Uh and I saw a video where they were it was on MKBHD and he was testing, I think it was Leica versus iPhone.

2:16:20

Uh can you tell the difference? It was very, very hard.

2:16:22

But they really made it harder by only doing uh extreme, you know, no shallow depth of field landscape photography, super bright.

2:16:34

They weren't shooting some moody scene in a smoky bar at night with, you know, controlled lighting or something like that.

2:16:40

Uh, and so we've been in this interesting era where the smartphone is it it it it got amazing superhuman level or or super, you know, Leica level at a certain niche in photography, but you it really has not replaced like moody portrait lighting where you want shallow depth of field like just because of the physics of the lens.

2:17:01

And I'm wondering if you think AI generative AI will do the same thing because I'm just thinking about like even in the stock photography example like if I'm buying a stock photo of Yoseite like even if it looks photoreal like I want half-doome in the right place. I don't want a halfdme.

2:17:17

I don't want something that looks like half-dme.

2:17:20

I like the the reason I'm buying that stock image is because I can see exactly the shape of half-dom perfectly.

2:17:27

Not uh, you know, something that feels right and looks photoreal, but isn't actually real.

2:17:31

And that applies to so many different things.

2:17:33

We need a stock photo of a Manhattan street and the the layout of that street is important.

2:17:39

And so I'm wondering where you think the pockets of photography will stay around forever uh versus the ones that are like going a layer deeper on that. >> Yeah. H it's a great question.

2:17:49

I mean I mean first of all I think composition is arguably one of these most important things for you to learn in photography.

2:17:58

You know most people will say that Ancel Adams wasn't a great photographer.

2:18:00

He was amazing at composition and editing.

2:18:05

I mean he was one of the original contributors to Photoshop like back in the day.

2:18:07

you know, little little known fact, but you know, it is about that editing process.

2:18:11

So, yes, you've got to get that composition right, but often times, you know, that shot that's actually taken doesn't match the vision of what the photographer had in their head.

2:18:21

And I do think, you know, where AI is interesting is it's starting to help people sort of, hey, you have this vision.

2:18:28

Lighting is a is a is another classic example, right?

2:18:30

Lighting is something that most photographers, you know, even the best of them like mess up.

2:18:35

and being able to use um AI to help augment right and correct some of the lighting issues or like composition issues.

2:18:45

I think that's another area that's really that there's more and more investment that's happening there.

2:18:49

We're obviously taking a look at some of that as well.

2:18:52

Uh but I think that's where it can it can aid, right?

2:18:54

And regardless of whether you're using an iPhone or if you're you got a very expensive Leica, love Leas, great products, but you know, from an approachability standpoint, the iPhones are much more approachable for the average person.

2:19:08

And you when people are just getting started into photography, right?

2:19:11

Like I think e even not even the latest iPhone, but like old iPhones, pick an iPhone 12 Pro and start to experiment with that and really just build your craft, build your look.

2:19:23

That's why people love coming to Visco because they get to see what other people are doing like authentic work that isn't tainted by a lot of slop that's out there, right?

2:19:31

And then they get to learn from other people and and I think that's also very important, right?

2:19:37

Don't you know being a photographer, especially a professional photographer is a lonely place, right?

2:19:41

I mean, being a creative is a lonely place.

2:19:44

And so if you can find communities of people, you know, we sponsor a lot of photo walks, just meet up with these folks, get to learn from each other and, you know, learn about the tools that they're using, learn about the techniques, see the gear and the camera.

2:19:56

Ultimately, it's about bringing people together, uh, and to help support and elevate their work and their craft.

2:20:02

Uh, and whatever that is, whether it's technology or just going old school with doing inerson stuff, I mean, we're all here for that.

2:20:12

You spent 15 years at Adobe.

2:20:16

Do you think the market misunderstands Adobe's AI opportunity?

2:20:19

Adobe's AI opportunity? Because from my view it's like you have some of the most advanced tools the most advanced tools for uh creating uh uh creating media across you know different categories and uh if AI makes it better you know if AI is a tool that just makes these

2:20:41

processes better and more accessible I would think that creates an amazing opportunity but the stock's down 34% uh in the last year they haven't found a way to get people to understand the opportunity, but I'm curious like what your framework is for Adobe uh in in uh the year 2025. >> Yeah, I mean obviously, you know, I'm

2:21:02

>> Yeah, I mean obviously, you know, I'm I'm a fan of Adobe.

2:21:05

I spent a long time there.

2:21:07

I came through the Macdia acquisition and, you know, I think there's still a lot of smart people out there trying to figure out some of these things.

2:21:14

things. I think what people realize is that you know Adobe used to be this unassalable you know company right and it was very very dominant in the market and then this company called Figma comes around and really proves like oh there's actually a whole new market opportunity

2:21:30

that's adjacent to Adobe that also can be served by someone else Canva same thing right Canva is also looking at another part of the market that wasn't was underserved and so I think that's probably why you're seeing duress less, you know, in in in the Adobe stock. It's

2:21:45

It's less about the AI market opportunity, which I think is very big, but there's a lot of players there right now. And and who knows?

2:21:54

I mean, right now, this is an absolute land grab opportunity where people are experimenting.

2:21:58

They're coming out with different tools.

2:22:00

Just look at how capital allocators are treating the market right now.

2:22:04

I mean, they really don't know.

2:22:05

They're it's almost impossible to underwrite, you know, the the the valuations of these companies right now because it's really a guess.

2:22:12

people are just trying to pick what they think is going to be the the the winner of of these respective categories.

2:22:16

So, me personally, very long on the AI opportunity for the creative community.

2:22:24

I think you alluded to this earlier, like there's just a thirst, forget a thirst, like a massive hunger for really high quality content at a volume that we've never seen before.

2:22:34

And we know that generative AI isn't cutting it.

2:22:38

Even if generative continues to get better over the next 3 to 5 years, there still is a certain amount of work that will always need to be human created.

2:22:44

It will always need to be authentic and genuine, especially when it comes to what brands want and need.

2:22:49

Uh, and you know, humans are very instinctual creatures, too.

2:22:54

So, even though I see a lot of these tests online, can you tell the difference between what's real AI and what's not?

2:22:59

Like, you know, I think humans understand like what what is real still?

2:23:04

and and I I think that's something that we're we're going to continue to see more and more content being created by real people um for a long long time.

2:23:12

So, I'm I'm long on that bet, but long also um I'm I'm a big believer in the opportunity that AI uh is going to present in supporting the the human creatives out there. >> I agree. Totally.

2:23:25

>> Uh well, thank you so much for stopping by. Super fun.

2:23:27

>> We'll talk to you soon. >> Yeah.

2:23:28

So great to see you guys. Thanks for having me on. Cheers. Cheers.

2:23:31

>> Before we bring out our next guest, let me tell you about profound.

2:23:32

Get your brand mentioned in chat GPT.

2:23:34

Reach millions of consumers who are using AI to discover new products and brands.

2:23:37

Uh, our last guest couldn't talk trash about Adobe.

2:23:42

Didn't want to talk trash about Adobe, but I'm happy to.

2:23:43

I've been having a terrible experience with Adobe and I'm so mad at the company. 30%. It should be 100%.

2:23:50

Because And I'll tell you why. It's so simple.

2:23:53

So, I I I use >> You want that?

2:23:56

John is calling for the stock to drop 100.

2:23:59

It's not that serious, but I am very annoyed with Adobe because for a long time I've been using an app on my iPhone called Photoshop Mix.

2:24:06

And Photoshop Mix allowed you to take two photos and layer them over each other.

2:24:10

Very helpful for making memes.

2:24:12

You could take one image, you could cut it out, put in another one.

2:24:16

Eventually, they put ads in front of every single you had to you you had to click an X to get out of an ad every time you open the app. Fine.

2:24:22

I'm already paying for Adobe.

2:24:23

I don't know why I also get these ads for the other app. Very annoying.

2:24:26

I finally bail on the app because they just break it entirely. It's not working at all.

2:24:31

I get a new app, Photoshop Express.

2:24:33

This is their new app for the iPhone. They've fixed it.

2:24:37

You don't need Photoshop Mix anymore.

2:24:39

You're on Photoshop Express.

2:24:41

And so, I get Photoshop Express.

2:24:41

And I learn all the new tools, all their new UI, and I figure out how to do basically the same thing in the new app, Photoshop Express.

2:24:49

Then, I get a new iPhone. Guess what happens?

2:24:52

>> They completely killed Photoshop Express.

2:24:54

They they to they literally took the feature out of of cutting out one image and putting it out over the other.

2:25:00

You can't do layers in Photoshop Express anymore.

2:25:01

So then I need to move to Photoshop the actual do layers in this country.

2:25:05

>> You can't even do layers in this country anymore.

2:25:06

And so now I'm on the actual Photoshop app, the third app. I'm very upset. And maybe it's better.

2:25:10

Maybe I'll be happy in a couple months.

2:25:13

But I've been shocked with how difficult it is to just I I guess I'm just such a weird power user of like niche.

2:25:19

like I want to do everything on my phone that I'm just demanding a niche set of uh of products and and features that just don't exist anywhere else.

2:25:28

But uh I've been very very upset with my Adobe experience.

2:25:30

So anyway, >> that's my rant for today against Adobe.

2:25:36

But hopefully they can turn it around.

2:25:38

They do have a huge opportunity in front of them.

2:25:39

Hopefully they get some sharp people who start building uh great products and apps because uh I would love to be using them.

2:25:45

Well, fortunately, uh I believe the president of Adobe is coming on uh later this month. >> Really? >> Fantastic.

2:25:52

I can take it up and down.

2:25:54

>> Talk talk with them about >> I I I can talk about the wrongful death of Photoshop Mix PS, two apps that I created endless memes in.

2:26:02

Anyway, without further ado, we have our next guest from Reducto. Welcome to the stream.

2:26:08

>> Sorry to keep you waiting for the rant.

2:26:10

Uh congratulations on the news.

2:26:10

Please kick us off with an introduction on yourself and the company.

2:26:16

>> Yeah, so I'm Ad Abraham, co-founder and CEO here at Reductto.

2:26:19

We help people get data out of all of their most complex documents and spreadsheets for all sorts of LM use cases.

2:26:25

Uh so plenty of thoughts here on Adobe as well that we can go into. >> Fantastic.

2:26:30

I like that when you're in the reream waiting room, you can kind of hear me ranting before you before you hop on. Uh give us the news. Give us the news.

2:26:37

>> Give me that hammer, too. >> News news. >> What do you got? >> What you got? Yeah.

2:26:41

So, yesterday we announced that we raised a $75 million series B.

2:26:49

This is five months after we announced our series A for benchmark.

2:26:51

And >> million in total funding. >> Congratulations.

2:26:56

>> On an absolute uh on an absolute tear.

2:26:56

I missed who who led the new round. I missed that part. >> Andre. >> Andre. Congratulations.

2:27:03

Um so I mean we got to go a lot deeper on the actual product. Who's the key customer?

2:27:08

What are the key use cases?

2:27:10

Obviously, you know, understanding documents broadly like there's a lot of products for that.

2:27:14

So, what was your landing zone?

2:27:16

What was your go to market?

2:27:18

What's the target customer like?

2:27:19

Like like take me one level. >> Yeah.

2:27:20

How old were you when you realized you wanted to turn documents into data? I guess >> from day one. >> Day one.

2:27:26

>> Day one in the >> Yeah.

2:27:29

>> No, I think look, the thing is like PDF processing is of course not a new thing.

2:27:32

People have worked on it probably longer than I've been alive.

2:27:34

I've met the people that worked on the original drivers for printers to print PDFs. >> Okay.

2:27:39

>> Um, but the context here is very different, right?

2:27:41

Like we're not far from a point where language models are going to reason on pretty much any points of human data.

2:27:46

Like before you say hi to your doctor, there's going to be some sort of summary of your medical records.

2:27:51

When you apply for a loan, there's going to be, you know, some agents that goes through and understands all of your financial statements.

2:27:56

And if you're going to have all of those human points of data uh with real human processes, you need human level accuracy.

2:28:02

And that's what we came in with.

2:28:04

So 2 years ago we released what at that time was the first parsing API that used VLMs.

2:28:09

Um and tried to really set a new standard for what accuracy could look like on anything.

2:28:13

Um we looked at it as this problem of how can you read documents the way that a human would.

2:28:17

Uh and since then obviously the product's gotten a lot broader but today a lot of the newer AI companies like in the Harveys of the world, the Rogos, the Loras and so on people building really great AI applications use Reductive for that sort of ingestion.

2:28:32

um but also some of the largest enterprises in the world like Fortune 10 enterprises in tech uh some of the largest hedge funds in the world, private equity firms, insurance companies and so on.

2:28:43

>> Talk about the decision to use VLMs. What are those? Break that down.

2:28:48

>> Yeah, so for a while you would have some sort of you know IDP vendor that is using traditional OCR.

2:28:54

>> Uh but you can really go a step further.

2:28:57

There's a lot of things that weren't possible 2 years ago.

2:28:58

Like if you try to read East Asian languages, there are just so many more characters and so it would be really hard to get every little mark correct.

2:29:07

>> Uh if you're dealing with something like healthcare documents, you have all sorts of handwriting. You have checkboxes.

2:29:10

You know, you have a doctor annotating it on the side and they just assume that somebody would be reading that.

2:29:16

But when you read that programmatically, you make a lot of mistakes.

2:29:19

And so what we do is we're really good at the traditional CD side.

2:29:23

A lot of our team is uh former self-driving car researchers.

2:29:25

So we tried to apply a lot of frontier techniques there, but also we have this agent flow where I almost liken it to a human loop.

2:29:33

We're making corrections to the last mile of mistakes.

2:29:35

Like maybe we made a mistake on a period versus a comma or a zero was mistaken as an O and we'll iteratively go through correct all of those so that no matter what you're uploading, you can get to good reliable outputs.

2:29:49

Thank you for waiting until we had self-driving cars to hire all the self-driving car engineers to work on turning PDFs into structured data. Thank you.

2:29:59

It's really >> very differently important. >> Yeah. Yeah.

2:30:03

No, it is uh uh >> I mean what are people demanding on like the output side?

2:30:08

Is it just like dump a bunch of JSON files in S3 buckets? It's like what?

2:30:14

Like how how far do you go from like okay I have a I have a stack of PDFs or maybe papers and you're going to scan and and turn that into text and data but like are people actually coming to you and saying like no I want it loaded into this relational database or I want it in MongoDB like how far do you go? >> We see all of those.

2:30:32

Um so in some cases these are real time applications like a user is uploading a file and they want to be able to talk to it.

2:30:38

Um and so there like we're actually just extracting the data and making it easier for models to reason on.

2:30:43

But we also have cases where one of the biggest hedge funds in the world wanted to digitize two decades worth of historical data.

2:30:51

Um this is things that an analyst would have combed through you know extracted individual data points.

2:30:54

Um and they want signals off of that.

2:30:56

Um and so in their case we can actually structure it into the exact representation that they want.

2:31:02

Especially recently we started going beyond just the initial parsing and extracting like we take care of everything.

2:31:07

like you want to split your documents, you want to classify them, you might even want to edit data in uh a lot of human work is you get information from some set of documents and you put it into some net new PDF or spreadsheets.

2:31:18

Uh people can do that end to end and we offer different endpoints for them to be able to do that.

2:31:22

How hard is it to get from 85% accuracy to 90 to 95 to 99 to 99. 99999?

2:31:34

I imagine but I imagine it's like critically important if people are working on you know legal cases or you have medical records that you can't really mess these things up. >> Yeah.

2:31:44

I mean, the long tail is really long.

2:31:46

And >> yeah, >> when you're looking at like a financial document, uh, a period versus a comma is not, you know, like a, oops, it's millions of dollars.

2:31:55

Um, like you've just changed the order of magnitude.

2:31:56

Um, you can't have something like a a patient's medical record and have it say, is the patient vaccinated?

2:32:03

And guess at what the checkbox says, right?

2:32:06

Like, you need to get these things right.

2:32:08

Um, and that's why I think even for that last mile difference, people are really excited about reductive unlocks for them because there are use cases where they didn't think they could digitize it before.

2:32:17

Um, like it just wasn't reliable enough to put in production.

2:32:21

And we're trying to not just get really good initial extracted results.

2:32:25

Um, and not just get, you know, that layer of redundancy to correct those um, in cases we might have messed up, but also give them all of the last mile things that they would need.

2:32:33

like if they want to have a human in the loop.

2:32:36

We're really good at citing where we got answers from.

2:32:37

We're really good at catching our own mistakes and pointing to things that we're not sure that we can extract.

2:32:42

Um so they can feel confidence that in production they're not going to have issues.

2:32:47

>> Do you actually have a hot take about Adobe?

2:32:51

>> Um I am getting dinner with the CEO tonight actually.

2:32:53

I'll play back your clip >> because the clip where he says it's down 35% it should be down 100.

2:32:58

That was maybe hyperbole for the for the comedic effect, but I do have another axe to grind with them because every day I make a PDF and every day I open Adobe Acrobat to make that PDF and there are seven different popups asking me to use their AI assistant that just says, "Do you want to summarize this document?

2:33:16

Do you want to summarize this document?"

2:33:17

And I never want to summarize the document.

2:33:20

And I always have to say, "No, close this."

2:33:21

It says, "Ask AI assistant up here, AI assistant over there." And it's too much. And it does.

2:33:25

It should be more intelligent to know that I don't need a document summary for my workflow because I do the same thing every single day. >> It's unacceptable. >> Yeah. What? >> Yeah.

2:33:37

I I think people like aren't really looking at PDFs in and of themselves.

2:33:40

Like it's not the file format that you care about. It's what's in there.

2:33:42

Like you want to be able to do the things that you want to do. >> Yeah.

2:33:45

>> Um and hopefully we end up in a place where people can just interact with the underlying data.

2:33:49

Um that's what we want to help with. >> I'd love that.

2:33:51

Well, thank you for helping make data more interactable.

2:33:55

Thank you for everything that you do and thank you for joining the show.

2:33:57

>> Yeah, great to get the update.

2:33:57

I'm sure you'll be back on very soon.

2:33:59

>> We'll talk to you soon.

2:33:59

Have a good rest of your day. >> Linear.

2:34:03

Linear is a purpose-built tool for planning and building products.

2:34:05

Meet the system for modern software development.

2:34:08

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2:34:09

You can start building on linear today.

2:34:10

Uh there are a bunch of more there are a bunch more stories. Um where should we go? >> What's the story?

2:34:19

A giant new AI data center is coming to the epicenter of America's fracking boom. That makes sense.

2:34:25

>> Core the energy is poolside.

2:34:27

>> Poolside >> is this poolside the foundation?

2:34:28

It's a different poolside. >> Poolside wait.

2:34:31

Yeah, >> there's >> poolside was a viral meme about the product managers who were at who were poolside talking about the day in the life and it was >> there's poolside FM.

2:34:44

>> Poolside FM that is a cursor and windsurf competitor I believe something like that. It's a coding IDE.

2:34:49

like that. It's a coding IDE. It's a fork of a VS code >> but that is not this >> this is a different thing >> poolside AI >> poolside is joining with cloud infrastructure provider >> that's the one I was talking about >> poolside is and coreweave aimed to take advantage of the natural gas produced in

2:35:06

the perian basin the epicenter of the US drilling facility I believe the the CEO of pool poolside is coming on the show by the way so we can get to the bottom of this >> okay but in this article poolside it's a okay I found okay >> okay figure it out poolside is in the midst of a $2 billion fundraising round that would value the company $14 billion. Let's get a preemptive gong.

2:35:24

Let's get a preemptive gong. >> Preemptive gong.

2:35:29

>> It's not announced, but we're still ringing the gong for you.

2:35:31

Poolside, uh, according to people familiar with the matter, it raised 500 million uh, just a year ago at a $3 billion valuation.

2:35:36

The coding focused startup.

2:35:38

So, it is the same poolside.

2:35:40

Yes, >> it is the same poolside.

2:35:41

It is uh, which counts the chip giant Nvidia among its investors in one of several technology companies seeking to build AI systems with humanlike intelligence.

2:35:48

Uh while many operators move quickly to secure continued access to the chips, uh America doesn't have enough data centers.

2:35:54

Uh it is far from certain whether many data centers will have sufficient power and water to operate without becoming a significant strain on local resources.

2:36:02

It's not about your headline numbers of gigawatts.

2:36:04

It's about your ability to deliver data centers, says the co-founder of poolside.

2:36:09

Um the real physical bottleneck in our industry. Interesting.

2:36:13

poolside and core and coreweave declined to provide details about the cost of leasing the land from the Mitchell family in Texas who own it.

2:36:19

Uh but they said that the overall expected cost that uh poolside uh they say we build the models you build the future AGI for the enterprise starting with software agents.

2:36:31

Just interesting that they're actually getting into the physical totally infrastructure side when you have cognition, you have cursor, you know, a bunch of other players that have just said, "Hey, we're happy to just be at the application layer.

2:36:46

We'll build some models, but ultimately we want to part, we want to just uh get kind of off the shelf." >> Totally. This is fascinating.

2:36:54

>> Totally. This is fascinating. We've seen this vertical integration happen in the previous era but mostly because the cloud platforms just weren't mature but like when Facebook started uh they at some point could have said hey let's just host on AWS but they became a

2:37:09

hyperscaler right but then so did cloudflare so did I believe Netflix has their own infrastructure uh I mean 37 signals famously move you know you were going to say that right 37 signals moved off of AWS >> yeah thank you Jack Cohen in in uh uh from show in the chat says it's with Jason Warner who is he was the CEO of >> GitHub. Yeah, that's right. Yeah, that's right. >> An absolute legend. An absolute dog. >> Absolute dog.

2:37:32

Um but uh this is another interesting fact in here.

2:37:36

We've been we've been talking about the the building these 2 gawatt data centers.

2:37:41

They clock the industry standard cost of building a 2 gawatt data center at $16 billion.

2:37:47

But in this case, poolside expects its cost to be lower due to its use of off-site modular construction techniques.

2:37:55

And that total cost doesn't include the cost of the chips.

2:37:57

And so we have to serve as the anchor.

2:38:02

>> What percentage of the is the actual like physical structure?

2:38:05

Like what percentage of the cost of a data center is the >> because we've seen like people just using tents, right?

2:38:12

So it can't be it can't could it be double digits of the actual cost of a data center? >> We need a pie chart.

2:38:18

We need semi analysis to break down exactly what goes >> find a pie chart of data center because it feels like it feels like I'd be shocked if it was higher than 10%.

2:38:26

If I'm spending $16 billion on a 2 gawatt data center, h how is that like what what percentage of that money is going towards chips, you know, concrete, like you know, what are the different buckets because you're going to build uh all sorts of stuff. What do you think?

2:38:45

>> Yeah, I mean I'm trying to I'm on some analysis site right now trying to like find news about this >> and I'm not really seeing anything which is surprising cuz like I mean 2 gawatts is like >> super huge.

2:38:53

That's like bigger than Colossus 2 which is 1 gig >> watt.

2:38:57

Well, I mean this is breaking news like in semi analysis publishes like like on a weekly cadence. >> Yeah, that's true.

2:39:02

It's very surprising to see I mean this is not a major LM provider. >> Totally. Yeah.

2:39:07

I feel like when Semi analysis does something that's more like okay they actually fully understand Amazon strategy and they're going to take you through all the different pieces with tons of new points.

2:39:16

>> But it I mean this is like extremely ambitious.

2:39:19

>> This is extremely ambitious. >> Yeah.

2:39:20

>> Well, I'm excited to talk to the founder. That'll be a lot of fun.

2:39:22

Uh, in other news, uh, the frothiest AI bubble is in energy stocks, says the Wall Street Journal.

2:39:29

Uh, concept stocks with no revenue have soaring valuations.

2:39:35

Forget about the froth in tech valuations.

2:39:36

The real excess might be building up in energy stocks.

2:39:38

For all the fears about stretched technology shares, again, we've seen that the big tech companies, the multiples aren't that high.

2:39:47

And so a lot of people are saying, well, it can't be a bubble if you're still able to buy Apple and Google at, I don't know, 30x uh earnings.

2:39:55

Uh well, that's not the case in the energy market.

2:39:58

Um not so in the energy sector sector.

2:40:00

A group of nonrevenue generating energy companies have collectively boom ballooned in value to more than $45 billion in hopes that tech companies will one day pay for their yettobe built power.

2:40:12

Oaklo is a good example of this.

2:40:15

Their shares have risen eightfold to date.

2:40:17

The company is now worth 26 billion.

2:40:19

I've actually met met the founders.

2:40:22

>> Apparently Oaklo is like a obsession for of Korean retail traders. >> Interesting. Korean retail traders. >> Korean retail army. >> That's fun.

2:40:33

I wonder if they have a name for the for the like the the retail army.

2:40:36

Sometimes they they name themselves.

2:40:38

Uh it's the biggest US publicly incorporated public company that generated no revenue in the last tw 12 months.

2:40:45

I mean, yeah, it takes a long time to build a nuclear reactor.

2:40:46

Uh, Oaklo is developing small modular reactors that use a nonwater coolant liquid metal sodium uh and an enriched type of uranium fuel that is in limited supply.

2:40:57

It doesn't yet have a license from the US Nuclear Regulatory Commission or binding contracts with power purchasers.

2:41:03

Wall Street analysts don't expect the company to generate substantial revenue until 2028.

2:41:06

Uh, of course the like the bull case is that you know the the the US government has said hey we want to advance this very aggressively.

2:41:17

We want what was it the new we we want a new reactor online next year something like that.

2:41:21

And so uh there's certainly a lot of uh a lot of energy around uh let's speed up what the US Nuclear Regulatory Commission does.

2:41:31

The NRC has been moving too slow.

2:41:31

I believe they've they in the history of the NRC, they've never approved a new nuclear reactor design, right, Tyler?

2:41:41

>> I believe that's true. >> Yeah.

2:41:42

And I think they've only approved a few like existing designs build it again.

2:41:46

And so, uh, people are kind of like that's not the goal.

2:41:48

Like it was never designed as like the the nuclear banning commission. It was just regulatory.

2:41:55

And so you should regulate but not stop all progress completely.

2:42:00

Also, I I think the headline just about energy stocks >> Yeah.

2:42:03

>> ripping is like kind of misleading.

2:42:03

Like you're still like I'll believe it when I see natural gas stocks like ripping, right?

2:42:10

That that's when we're actually that that's like real energy.

2:42:11

That's massive energy that we need to if if we're going to keep accelerating if we want like 10 100 gawatt data centers.

2:42:19

That's basically the only path unless you we have some insane buildout that's like part partially government funded of like clean of like solar or I like nuclear going to take so long to build.

2:42:29

I mean, those are probably way harder to meme, right?

2:42:30

Because they're way bigger companies >> and they have revenue >> revenue.

2:42:34

But seriously, I mean, like like we're in this like frothy time and there are companies that are scaling valuations very fast in the private markets and the public markets and Nvidia is way up, but Nvidia is way up at like not really on like a revenue multiple like they've driven they've grown revenue significantly in line with their market cap.

2:42:49

Um whereas uh on like the retail armies have been searching around for pockets of like like quantum computing like the next trend because there's this there's this idea that like if you missed Nvidia what are you going to go out and find and like a nuclear thing it feels like nuclear will be a thing in a decade and so you can get in on the action now get in on the ground floor. That's the narrative.

2:43:11

Much harder to say yeah there's going to be more demand from this like you know legacy oil and gas company.

2:43:18

Uh but it's already >> right now.

2:43:21

Right now you can own Oaklow. Yeah.

2:43:24

>> At a $25 billion market cap with 0 of revenue or you can own >> EQT which is a big natural gas company.

2:43:32

They had 5 billion of revenue last year >> and uh you can and they're currently trading at a $34. 6 billion market cap.

2:43:42

So >> um but stocks up over almost 11% over the last month.

2:43:47

Here's my recommendation.

2:43:48

If you're a massive company with no revenue, as soon as you start generating revenue, get on numeralhq.

2:43:54

com because you got to pay your sales tax once you make revenue. >> Numeralhq. com. Sales tax on autopilot.

2:44:00

Spend less than five minutes per month on sales tax compliance.

2:44:01

Um, another zero revenue company is Fermy, which was valued at roughly $19 billion upon its public market debut earlier this month.

2:44:10

Only two other no- revenue companies had larger market caps than Fermy on the first day of trading after an IPO, adjusted for inflation.

2:44:15

There there was Rivian which went public in uh 2021 and Corvvis an optical network equipment maker that went public during the dotcom bubble.

2:44:24

I mean Rivian's definitely like shipped and like I see the cars around like you know it's not it's not that much of a bare signal to be like yeah you went out as a public company with no revenue but it has historically been like you only go public when you are cash flow positive and like and it's kind of like the end of you fundraising constantly.

2:44:40

uh and instead uh now now we've just pulled all that forward in in in some in some subm markets.

2:44:45

A lot of companies stay private much longer.

2:44:47

So lots of different ways to grow your company.

2:44:52

Um what else is going on in the tech world in the army world in the world of the army?

2:44:59

The secretary of the army former TVPN guest uh is on the timeline.

2:45:04

Uh happy captain says, "I was debating whether or not to tell this story, but it feels like it's worth telling.

2:45:08

Yesterday at AUSA, the Secretary of Armory gave a powerful speech where he talked about a soldier's right to repair.

2:45:14

Essentially, soldiers should be able to repair their own equipment without having to rely on a contractor.

2:45:21

In 2010, we were in a remote part of of Afghanistan on a combat outpost with roughly 70 to 90 soldiers.

2:45:31

We had two robots and used them a lot to work on IEDs.

2:45:34

Their service was under contract.

2:45:36

We weren't allowed to fix them.

2:45:38

After a lot of use, they both broke and a field service representative couldn't get to us in a timely manner. So, what do you do?

2:45:44

Do you force your team leader to put on a the bombsuit and risk their life for every call, or do you fix it yourself? We went with option B.

2:45:52

We completely took apart two broken robots to create one working one that we used on the mission. That's amazing.

2:45:58

Uh, did we get yelled at? Yes.

2:46:00

Would I would I do it all over again knowing it kept my team leader safe? Absolutely. What a remarkable story.

2:46:08

Uh yeah, this is one of those like little tweaks to how the army works, how the military works that uh was probably pretty low on the agenda of most other uh secretaries of the army.

2:46:21

But I'm glad that uh that he uh you know raised the uh raised awareness here in his uh Yeah.

2:46:28

Uh, and Aaron Slodoff has a a clip here and he shares, "I'm glad that Secretary of Army is going on a crusade against the insane spend and blatant waste in sustainment parts the Army deals with."

2:46:42

>> Let's get it back on the show. >> We should.

2:46:44

>> Uh, Run says, "It is so effing cold. Summer is over. It's all over.

2:46:47

If you haven't secured a mate for the winter, it's time to commit to monk hood."

2:46:53

>> Yeah, cuffing season really snuck up on everyone.

2:46:56

>> It got Yeah, it got absolutely frigid in LA.

2:46:58

We had to turn on the fire here.

2:47:00

>> Yeah, we had to turn on the fire.

2:47:00

But >> not so much today.

2:47:01

But I'm excited to keep uh keep the cozy maxing going.

2:47:06

>> It's hard to really lean into that locktober spirit when when it's still warm and sunny out. >> Exactly.

2:47:11

Much easier to lock in the uh in the winter when it's cold.

2:47:14

When it's cold, let me tell you about Finn.

2:47:16

AI, the number one AI agent for customer service.

2:47:20

Number one in performance benchmarks, number one in competitive bake offs, number one ranking on G2.

2:47:24

>> Keith Ra Boy put the timeline in turmoil.

2:47:26

He said, "If anthropic actually believe their rhetoric about safety."

2:47:30

>> Oh, look who we have here. >> Here he is, >> Brian. How are you doing? >> Hello. Hello.

2:47:35

>> Uh, I'm I mean, I'm good. How are you guys doing?

2:47:39

>> We are doing fantastic.

2:47:40

>> The exhausted long day at the office so far.

2:47:44

>> Yeah, I I have uh I've had some people allegedly helping me.

2:47:48

Uh, I took I I I took like 25 minutes during this entire day and now it looks like a bomb went off in here. Oh no.

2:47:56

>> I felt like I was in a good place before I left.

2:47:58

But >> anyway, >> it's hard to compete with uh the super intelligence for the for the finance suite that is >> uh but it's great to have you on the show.

2:48:10

>> But as a as a as as a as a leader, I felt like it was uh well, it was incumbent upon me.

2:48:15

I'm not sure if that's exactly the right phrase, but I I to show my own value and and how I could contribute and and and and process like like RAMP does. >> Yes.

2:48:28

Uh what has been harder, playing Kevin or trying to be the CEO of uh the CFO of RAMP?

2:48:39

>> Um this has been much more difficult.

2:48:41

Um, there's also a fly in here now that looks like the size of a um of a hummingbird.

2:48:49

So, I mean, there's a lot of adversity >> here being on the street.

2:48:52

There's also, by the way, I don't know, >> you know, I I I'm used to working in front of an audience, but usually they're not live and in person here. They're they're waving.

2:49:04

They're there's lots there's lots going on here. Lots to distract me.

2:49:09

But look, I'm I'm I'm doing the best I can.

2:49:12

>> How many What's What's the tracker out right now?

2:49:14

How many receipts is that? Does that say 80? >> Well, it says 84. >> 84.

2:49:20

To be fair, >> but to be fair, I felt like I was I was almost at 100 before I left for a few minutes.

2:49:26

So, basically, I got no help from the people who were supposed to help me.

2:49:31

>> Okay, >> that's >> So, what am I supposed to do?

2:49:34

>> And and you're racing against ramp.

2:49:34

Uh what what what uh what's the counter up to now on that side?

2:49:41

>> Uh 225,229 [Music] uh 50 60 70 >> Okay. >> 80. It's going very fast.

2:49:49

I don't >> I guess that's accurate.

2:49:53

I guess they process a lot, but >> yeah, it's a tough showing for you so far. Uh how are you feeling?

2:49:58

Are you optimistic that you can catch up? What's the strategy?

2:50:03

>> Yeah, you got 15 minutes left in the workday. Yeah.

2:50:06

>> I don't know if you're getting out at 5:00. >> I know.

2:50:08

I I'm working I'm working overtime for sure.

2:50:10

I think I'm working until >> 7, isn't it?

2:50:13

I I think for a seuite, >> by the way, that's a new phrase I learned. Seauite. I'm a seauite guy.

2:50:18

And so I think >> seuite guy.

2:50:23

>> I think I'm I'm a big sweet seauite guy.

2:50:25

So I think uh I think we worked till 7 here.

2:50:29

>> Maybe you have 500 distraction seats. Yo. Yeah.

2:50:33

>> Who's been the biggest distraction? >> Yeah.

2:50:35

Who's the biggest distraction?

2:50:35

Was it Eric trying to throw you off the game to prove that his software is more effective than than human labor?

2:50:43

>> Well, I mean to be clear, you guys are a distraction.

2:50:46

I mean, I'm trying to do inputting here and now I'm suddenly doing a press interview.

2:50:51

But again, that's what's that's what seauite guys do, I think. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah.

2:50:57

You got to make time for media. >> Yeah.

2:51:00

Uh, do you think that uh Dunder Mifflin would still be around if they had ramp?

2:51:07

>> I'm sorry, could you say that again?

2:51:09

>> Uh, do you A question from the chat.

2:51:09

Do you think that Dunder Mifflin would still be around if they used ramp?

2:51:17

>> Uh, you know, I when I was there, I wasn't really uh I wasn't really a part of those those seuite type decisions. Yeah. Uh I'm not.

2:51:26

But listen, I thought we did a pretty good job in the accounting department. Yes.

2:51:34

>> There at Dunder Mifflin.

2:51:34

So, uh remember I got fired >> or or my character got fired.

2:51:39

So, >> yeah, >> things went downhill after that clearly. >> Yeah.

2:51:46

>> Uh yeah, I guess I guess what uh kind of zooming out a little bit obviously.

2:51:51

Uh obviously um >> zooming out that's another great program.

2:51:57

>> Zooming out we use that a lot in the seauite we're we're just podcasters but we talk to people in the sea suite.

2:52:01

Um >> okay >> what uh yeah I guess like what what is your what like there's thou hundreds thousands of people surrounding your office here.

2:52:13

We don't have a view but but people are looking at the stream.

2:52:16

What is uh like what what what is your experience like walking on the street in New York uh dayto day?

2:52:22

Do you do you cover up and wear a hat?

2:52:24

Are you getting are you getting uh >> I do I do I do it today might be the first day that I've been that I've been on the streets of New York without a hat on and uh and sunglasses.

2:52:34

And you know look what I what I've learned as a leader here is you got to be a people person.

2:52:43

So, I'm really it's all about it's all about doing people for me.

2:52:46

You know what I'm saying?

2:52:48

I don't know if I know what I'm saying, but it's it's about that connection that is important when you're when you know when you're when you're a CFO.

2:52:59

>> I mean, that in finance, but that's secondary in a way.

2:53:03

>> Do you prefer finance or finance? How do you say it? >> Am I saying it wrong?

2:53:10

>> I mean, you can say it either way.

2:53:10

The really fancy people on Wall Street often they call it finance, not finance. >> Finance. >> Finance. Yeah.

2:53:18

>> Do they Do they spell it with an E? >> No. >> Finance.

2:53:22

>> It's spelled the same way, but they say finance. >> Finance. >> Hi, finance. >> Hold on.

2:53:27

I've been taking some notes today about things >> that I need to work on.

2:53:32

>> I've got another question.

2:53:32

How's your golf How's your golf game has your golf game improved since you became CFO?

2:53:39

Well, it's one it's one day to be clear.

2:53:43

Uh, you know, I I I still talk about uh golf.

2:53:47

Uh, that's sort of a different job.

2:53:50

I'm kind of trying to transition in a new direction, but I you look what I've learned is if you're a CFO, you have to work much harder than other people think you do. >> Mhm. >> Yeah.

2:54:02

I feel like the best the best CFOs figure out a way to combine >> combine the their love of golf and and uh you know their their role at their company.

2:54:11

So I would say once they let you out of the cage at uh 700 p. m.

2:54:16

hopefully you can at least hit the range and get some movement in.

2:54:20

>> They need a putting green in there.

2:54:22

>> Here's the thing that I'm I'm thinking is I I think I I I'm starting to realize I have an efficiency issue. >> Mhm.

2:54:30

Uh meaning I need to be more efficient >> with finance. >> Yeah.

2:54:37

>> So uh maybe I'll get to golf after I decide that this is not working for me.

2:54:46

>> Well, you're giving >> I'm going to stay high level. I think you're right. I think you're right. Stay high level.

2:54:50

>> Zoom out, >> you know, bring strategy into the sea suite. Start start Yeah. Focus on strategy. >> Yeah.

2:54:58

You know, another thing that occurs to me is probably working on the street with people watching is probably not the best idea.

2:55:05

Maybe that was the problem all along.

2:55:10

>> I mean, it's a high pressure role.

2:55:10

You got to be I mean, if you're going to perform in the boardroom >> on earnings calls, you got to be able to perform, you know, in flat iron. >> Yeah.

2:55:19

Steve Jobs introduced the iPhone to a a cheering crowd of thousands.

2:55:21

This is similar >> in a way. In a way it is.

2:55:27

In a way it's very very different. Yes. >> Yeah.

2:55:34

You got to be able to per perform under pressure, perform in front of in front of thousands as they walk by.

2:55:38

Uh it's all it's all important in business.

2:55:43

>> Potato potato, as we say on the seauite floor. >> Potato potato.

2:55:48

>> Um guys, pause one second. Say again. >> Is that Taipei?

2:55:54

She probably got to get on with Taipei. Yeah. >> Yeah.

2:55:57

Well, I we do I listen I um I I I would I thought you guys were were ESPN.

2:56:06

I'm gonna be honest with you.

2:56:08

>> So, I um I think it's time >> for uh for me to go.

2:56:14

You got a lot of work to do.

2:56:15

>> We appreciate >> and good luck catching up.

2:56:19

>> Listen, >> I've I've got some Jerger here in the office.

2:56:21

If you guys ever want to stop by, we'll see you. >> Fantastic. >> Would love that. >> Okay.

2:56:25

Great having you on, Brian. Good to see you. >> All right. >> Cheers. >> Byebye.

2:56:30

[Music] >> Wild truly truly uh truly an incredible actor. His ability.

2:56:35

I kept trying to throw him off.

2:56:37

He stayed fully in character.

2:56:41

>> Uh but uh but yeah, I seeing some of these videos like the crowd outside uh we obviously couldn't see it on that camera angle, but uh meanwhile on X, the crowd outside of the office uh is absolutely insane.

2:56:53

Yeah, we should share some of the videos to the timeline.

2:56:57

>> I saw Jeb Bush was uh >> coming out in support >> was coming out in support as he does >> as he does.

2:57:04

Um but uh that was super fun.

2:57:08

I >> Were you Did Were you big into The Office back in the day?

2:57:13

>> Yeah, I watched a few seasons of it at some point.

2:57:16

one of the few uh like work focused shows that's actually still relaxing to watch because it can turn your brain off, right?

2:57:23

Silicon Valley is on the opposite end where it just reminds you of like emails you need to respond to and things that you need to do whereas The Office is just >> great. Nothing matters.

2:57:33

It's just uh >> all of our problems are made up.

2:57:35

It's all it's all uh fake politics.

2:57:37

Yeah, it was very odd being so young and still extremely into like workplace white collar comedies as a kid.

2:57:46

It's like not what you'd expect, but I was obsessed with Office Space.

2:57:50

That was like one of my favorite movies as a kid.

2:57:52

I enjoyed The Office and uh I don't know, even though like I'd never worked in an office, I still found it funny at like age 12 for some reason. It was very, very fun. >> Evergreen.

2:58:04

>> Anyway, we have our next guest joining from the Reream waiting room.

2:58:07

We have Colin What's happening? Welcome to the show.

2:58:12

>> I'm not actually I'm not actually going after the ramp event, am I? >> Yeah, you are.

2:58:16

Fast follow to the stream.

2:58:18

Please kick us off with an introduction on yourself, the company, any news. >> Awesome. Yeah.

2:58:22

Hey guys, uh thanks for having me.

2:58:23

So, Colin Loose, co-founder and CEO here at Basis Theory.

2:58:25

I think the uh the simplest way to think about what we do is we help merchants, platforms, fintexs um not have to face the decision of working with Stripe or Aden or Checkout, but rather be able to seamlessly work with Stripe and Aden and Checkout.

2:58:43

Um there's a myriad of different reasons why that's important.

2:58:48

I think first and foremost, these platforms today are just global by default, right?

2:58:53

Um, like I was thinking about it the other day, the fact that like I think the latest numbers say 10% of the world's population uses chat GPT.

2:59:02

Like less than 3 years in, Facebook was still moving from like Ivy Leagues to like state schools in the US, right?

2:59:09

Um, and then I think the other side of it is payments has kind of moved from being a cost center to uh a growth driver.

2:59:16

And I think that's forcing companies to think about it less from a cost perspective and more from a performance perspective.

2:59:26

Um, and look, each of these individual PSPs has their own, you know, secret sauce and areas where they specialize.

2:59:33

And so it's just increasingly important that you can work with multiple of them as opposed to one. >> Okay. Explain Sheil's take.

2:59:38

Explain Sheil's hot take and then debunk it.

2:59:42

>> I had a note I had >> debunk it.

2:59:45

>> I had a note to call out Sheil and I love Sheil.

2:59:47

Uh I I went to Sheil's first fish concert with him.

2:59:49

So like Sheil and I are homies.

2:59:51

But yeah, like he took this like victory lap last week, you know, saying like Stripe's win, Stripe won Agentic Commerce, it's over.

2:59:58

And like that just couldn't be further from the truth, right?

3:00:02

Even if you look at Stripe's core business, I think people sometimes forget like Stripe and Adion together are still less than 10% market share in the US, right?

3:00:13

That means 90% of the US acquiring volume is still sitting out on these legacy platforms.

3:00:20

And so, as much as we talk about Stripe, like I'd argue Stripe hasn't even won US acquiring yet.

3:00:25

There's a lot of volume to port over.

3:00:26

And we're seeing the same thing play out on the Agentic side.

3:00:28

Um, Stripe can do a magical demo uh for merchants within the Stripe ecosystem.

3:00:36

Uh, I think the second you eject out of that, there's a lot of complexity.

3:00:39

>> Sorry, I'm just adding dramatic sound effects to Where's the shots fired from these? Uh, yeah.

3:00:43

No, these are a bunch of great lines.

3:00:45

I wanted you to explain basis theory like I'm a a venture capital associate, right?

3:00:51

to like explain it like in really in really simple terms cuz I'm trying to understand where >> it like you're you're the killer GP is completely checked out. >> Yeah.

3:01:01

Like two years from retirement but I'm trying to understand customer comes in they want to buy something.

3:01:05

Are you guys sitting >> before and then we >> Yeah, that's right.

3:01:12

So we sit at the very front we provide some real time data to the merchants about the payment credential the actual credit card.

3:01:18

Hey, this is a Visa signature card issued by a US bank or this is a master card issued by a European bank.

3:01:25

Based on that realtime insight, where do you want to route this transaction?

3:01:31

Do you want to route it off to Adyen?

3:01:32

Do you want to route it off to Stripe?

3:01:33

And oh, by the way, if you get an immediate decline from one of those, why don't you turn around and reroute it elsewhere and see if you can get that customer through? Right?

3:01:42

I think that's the other side of it, right?

3:01:44

like these these modern merchants who are selling these like ridiculously high gross margin digital products like they just want to get more stuff out the door, right?

3:01:53

They're they're actually okay taking on more fraud and risk if they can just sell more 90% gross margin goods, right?

3:01:58

So it's >> from the merchant side, merchants want to have multiple payment providers so that they have some leverage in these conversations. Is that right?

3:02:10

Yeah, I mean that was uh I was going to answer your question about explain it to the GP, but then I thought about the GP doesn't have this problem, but but maybe like you know the GP's nephew, right?

3:02:19

I always talk about in the terms of uh Comcast here um you know in California, right?

3:02:26

Like every time you call Comcast and you say, "Hey, I'm switching to YouTube TV," they magically have a 50% discount uh that they can get you on, right? Same thing applies here.

3:02:34

Um the problem is your data is locked away with these processors today.

3:02:39

So the minute you take back that control and start storing it yourself, you have immediate leverage to make that call. >> Interesting.

3:02:46

Give us the fundraising news. >> Yeah.

3:02:48

So we just announced we raised $33 million.

3:02:51

Um it was a pretty cool >> There we go. >> Congratulations.

3:02:57