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David Chelle's on the show today, and he's the CEO of Hachette, which is one of the big five publishers.
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And what I want to do in this conversation was talk about two things.
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The first, how should writers go about navigating the publishing industry?
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And second, [music] how does the publishing industry actually work?
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And who better to learn from than somebody at the top of the [music] field?
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Somebody who's been working in book publishing for 30 years, whose company sells roughly 220 [music] million books every year, and does 3 and 1/2 billion dollars in annual [music] revenue.
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When you think of school, what comes to mind?
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For me, it was lectures, homework, sitting at a desk.
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See, the standard model looks something like this.
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You go to school and you sit through 6 hours of worksheets, and then you come home at night and do a bunch of homework.
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And the worst part is it doesn't even work.
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What do publishers actually do?
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Like, if I came to you and I said, "Okay, what are the four or five things that you're going to do? I'm sitting here.
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I've just written this book.
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Can't you just like go to the printer and just like print 364 pages of the book and like package it on top of it and then like send it to Barnes & Noble?
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I don't understand why I need a publisher."
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>> Okay, so my answer to that is it's a great question.
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You know, there's about 200,000 new books published each year in the US.
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I say our main purpose is to make people realize they want your book.
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So, you think 200,000 books like it's so many books.
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What our skill is, and this is not one thing, it's a number of different things, making bookstores feel they want to stock your book, making the book look a way that when you go into a bookstore because you want to buy the book, talking to the press so that there's press articles that make people be like, "Oh, I need to you know, or a podcast or whatever.
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I need to you know, I need to buy that book."
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Um doing advertising that makes people, you know, consciously or unconsciously aware of the book, making the book as good as it can be before any of that stuff happens.
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That's a huge part of what we do.
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Um and then I guess finally it's like actually shipping the thing out. >> Yeah.
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>> So, so I was actually talking to friends the other day and I just said something like, uh "Oh, we've got about 400 people at our warehouse."
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And they were like, "Oh, you what?"
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Like And it was like, "Yeah, we've got 400 people.
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We ship like 150 million books a year."
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Like and they were like, "What? Just books?" I was like, "Yes.
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Like like that is it's not nothing.
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Like let's just put it that way."
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So, I think that is another thing that's sort of hidden. Like a hidden thing.
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Like if you go to our warehouse in Indiana, uh Lebanon, Indiana, amazing team, um it's vast. It's vast.
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Like and they are shipping books every day of the week out to 220 countries, whatever.
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Every, you know, sort of constantly constantly books books books books books.
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Um but I'd say sort of reputable publishers are able to not only like make people make your book as good as it can be, make people want your book, get the book into stores, but also like physically physically ship it around the world. You know, print it well.
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Like we work with the best printers.
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We have the best standards.
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Like the you know, just taking some uh geeky thing like typesetting.
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You've got a ton of books behind you like looking at this the sort of um quality of the books.
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The quality of the paper, the quality of the type.
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>> What I'm looking at here is the difference between the colors on various books.
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Some of them fade with sunlight and some of them really stand the test of time.
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>> Yeah, so I mean we have like very skilled manufacturing departments and their job is to make sure that books do stand the test of time and uh that they produce something.
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I mean, particularly in the I don't know how familiar you with with the romance to see space.
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But uh so this is a big genre at the moment. >> That's up there.
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I can say I read very about >> Okay, but like like this is a big driver in our industry at the moment. Romance and fantasy. Romance and fantasy.
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Uh there's this huge trend for these um uh sprayed edges they're called spredges.
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So, you know, like the edges of a book, like they started off with like they might you know, we might be like spray them red.
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So, it started like that or spray them black and people are like, "Oh, that's neat."
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Now, there's like patterns on them and have you got any ex- >> Like >> Yes. >> Like this. >> Exactly like that.
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So, that's actually kind of exactly.
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That that's a simple version.
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So, but now there's like characters on here, patterns.
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We've got these really cool Twilight ones where you you flip it one way, so you get like so you go like that and you get a picture of Bella.
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You know, the female character.
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You flip it that way and you get Edward. Oh, how about that? The male character.
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So, it's like it's in it's insane now the the skill of what you know, and what could be and the artistry of what could be done.
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>> Well, yeah, I remember when I was a kid there was a series You definitely know it.
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The Series of Unfortunate Events. >> of course. >> Lemony Snicket. You guys published that.
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>> Yeah, yeah, yeah, I published him. Yeah.
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>> Yeah, that's why it was top of mind.
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And the the the edges on the side they were kind of jagged and a little bit rough. >> Deckled. >> Deckled.
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There's a There's a word for everything.
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And I remember I picked up those books cuz I just really liked how the paper looked.
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And then it was from there that I ended up reading that series.
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>> I I think that is something that as publishers we can do, you know, like that is something that we offer.
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So, in terms of your question like what do we do?
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Like that is something we can do that as I say, you know, self-publishing is a great option.
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You can do lots of things, but you can't it's it's unlikely you could do that.
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>> Well, you've been working in the publishing industry for a long time and you've seen it from all different angles.
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And I'm wondering what advice do you have for writers who want to get their book published, who want to navigate this industry that is at times a little bit daunting. >> Yeah.
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Uh as I have I'm coming up for my 30-year anniversary in publishing, so I guess and my advice I suppose for writers will have changed during that time because when I started literally my job was I was an editorial assistant and one of my jobs was, you know, that time it was the internet did exist. It was 1997, but barely.
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Everyone sent their submission in as a hard copy.
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You know, so the protocol then was like two sample chapters and a synopsis. >> Wow.
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>> And I had this massive stack every morning.
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I'd come in the office, there'd be this huge the post person would like deliver this huge bag of mail, and it was my job to go through.
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We called it the slush pile.
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Fast forward from then to now, uh and I think things have got sort of harder and easier for writers now.
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I think there are more opportunities for writers because back in those days, there were no digital publishing options.
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Um and I think what digital publishing has done is kind of open up the industry more for writers.
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So, it used to be very gate-kept, I would say.
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It used to be, you know, just larger publishers generally, and we would read the submissions and take them on or not take them on.
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If you didn't take them on, there really wasn't a route for writers.
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What we've got now is a I think a more exciting landscape for writers.
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There are a lot of smaller publishers now cuz digital publishing has lowered the barriers to entry.
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So, there's a lot of startups, more startups than any any time in my career.
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We also have like digital imprints like say Bookouture, which is a US UK imprint where they take they don't go through agent Well, they do go through some agents, but they take direct submissions as well. >> Mhm.
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>> They have a digital first model, so it enables them to take more chances, more risk.
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>> When you say digital first, do you mean that it's focused on ebook, Kindle, stuff like that? >> Exactly.
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So, what their commitment is to authors is uh we'll publish your book in ebook, in audio, we'll see how it goes.
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If it does well, we'll give you a print you know, we'll do a print edition. >> Got it.
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>> And that is now the case, you know, we I'd love us to be unique.
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That's we're we're not unique there.
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Uh there's a number of publishers do that.
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And some of our most successful authors actually started off as self-published authors.
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So, we have taken on I mean, Kelly Hart.
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I think it's Kelly Kelly Hart who wrote this novel Quicksilver.
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Uh self-published did enormously well. We then signed her up.
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She's one of our biggest authors.
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That is That is a wonderful story.
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It's not a unique story, either.
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So, my advice to writers would be do not be deterred.
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Uh this sounds like this crazy thing for me to say as a publisher, but publishers don't know everything.
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Even if you get rejections from all the houses, that doesn't mean that your work won't find an enormous audience.
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I've seen time and time and time again um authors say, "Okay, I've you know, I've had all these rejections, but I believe in my work.
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I'm going to self-publish it."
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And there are countless examples of those books doing really well. >> Totally.
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>> And us as publishers coming with our tail between our legs and saying, "We got it wrong." Like like >> Forgive us. Forgive us. >> Forgive us.
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You know, and and it is like you know it's that Hollywood expression, "No one knows anything."
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I think I would say my best advice to an author is do not think that we know everything.
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Do not think that we think we know everything. We listen to your guts.
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I mean, I find that in my career like listen to my guts more and I would pass that to writers.
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Well, listen to your gut.
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If you feel you've got a story that is resonant and can reach readership um and it doesn't take that many resources to self-publish something these days.
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Like it's actually surprisingly cost-efficient and you have the resources to be able to self-publish it, then do that.
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Like give it your best shot.
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There's some really ex- inspiring examples of authors who very successfully self-published.
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>> I taught writing for 6 years and the biggest trouble that my students faced was writer's block.
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They had so much trouble getting ideas from out of their head and onto the page.
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But you know what's weird?
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People don't get talker's block.
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Like if you just talk out your ideas, it works.
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That's why I love WhisperFlow and use it for my writing all the time. It's super easy.
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Press a hot key and you just talk and all of a sudden the ideas show up on the page.
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There's no ums, there's no sloppy punctuation, just a draft that you can work with and shape into something amazing.
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And since I'm no longer tethered to the keyboard, I can write on the move.
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And the biggest thing is that I trust it. Look, I love Siri. She and I go way back.
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We've known each other for years.
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But sometimes I wonder if she even passed fourth grade English class because she can't even get punctuation right.
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But WhisperFlow automatically cleans up all your mistakes, digressions, and weird little vocal fillers without losing any of the substance.
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That's why I love WhisperFlow.
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I use it every single day and I recommend it to every writer I know.
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And you can try it for free at ref. whisperflow. ai/howiwrote.
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>> And can you explain to me how the agents work?
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Cuz my sense is you're talking about direct submissions.
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So, the majority of the people who end up working with you, they've worked with an agent and then with that agent they've then come to you. Is that right? >> That's right.
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And and like a lot, I'd say, well, I mentioned this house, you know, that we've got Bookouture and that thing is like we take direct submissions.
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That is fairly rare now because and that is to do with volume of submissions and just editors having enough time to be able to do a good job for the for the authors they do publish.
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So, and what agents in theory do is to find, you know, sort of the cream de la cream to to find to to find books that that they think are uh you know, can find a readership and to submit them to us.
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But I say agents don't know.
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You know, like like there's I I know so many authors as well who don't find an agent and who go on to be enormously successful. >> Right.
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>> So, agents hit rate is no better than publishers hit rate.
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But yeah, the agents will then have um personal relationships with a lot of the editors.
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The skill of an good agent is knowing I think this book can really connect with this editor.
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This editor will be great at bringing it to market and this house will be a particularly good house.
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And then they're very good at representing the best interests of the writer, like getting the writer the best deal, negotiating good royalties, um sort of making sure that, you know, they often will handle maybe film rights or uh translation rights, like making sure that that author is published around the world.
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And again, there's no one-size-fits-all.
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There are some authors who like to do all that stuff for themselves, but agents can be a good agent can be brilliant for an author in terms of finding this wide readership around the world by selling all those rights.
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And also, sometimes I have to say an agent can be useful in terms of almost like a mediation role between author and publisher. >> Mhm.
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>> Or having someone for each to bounce something off.
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They're working for the author.
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They're working for the interest of the author.
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But a good agent sometimes have In my experience, have said to an author, you know, an author might hate the cover a publisher wants to put on, and the agent sometimes has said to the author, "Actually, I think this cover could really work in the market.
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I think you could sell more copies of your book."
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And vice versa, sometimes an agent will say to us, "You want to put this cover on?
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I think this cover sucks.
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And like, my author thinks it sucks, but I think it sucks as well."
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So, like, it can go both ways.
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>> How do you think that authors should work with publishers when there is a bit of a disagreement in terms of how the book should be packaged or presented, what the cover should look like?
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Because if I'm an author, let's say that I've written a book, ah, now I don't like the cover.
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I'm not happy with the cover, and I want to switch it up.
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But it's like big publisher, scary, uh-oh.
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And also, I don't want to hurt my reputation in the future.
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I'm trying to play an iterated game where if I'm working with you guys, I want to publish book two, three, four, five. >> Yeah.
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How would I navigate that?
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>> It's a great question, and you know, as I I came up as an editor, I so I've experienced this first hand a lot of times.
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I tend to Well, two things with the authors that I work with.
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One is I like to have a relationship of absolute honesty, you know, and sort of almost sometimes radical candor, like on both sides.
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Let's just be totally straight with each other.
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So, I personally always welcomed it when an author was totally straight with me, and would say, "I hate this cover.
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I really don't like You know, and they often would."
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Just in business relationship generally, I think it's always best to know exactly what someone's thinking.
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Like I come from Britain where people are sometimes a little obtuse and what You know, they don't always say exactly what they mean.
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You spend time there, you know what I mean.
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Um so and I actually love being in this city cuz people are generally pretty direct.
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>> reading one of your interviews and you were talking about what it's like in England and sometimes they'll tell you something, but what they're saying is actually the opposite.
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So, you have to listen more to subtext. >> Yeah.
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>> Whereas New Yorkers are just >> Yeah, and it can be exhausting.
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So, so working with an author and that I love it when an author's like >> Is it two countries divided by the same >> Yes, yeah.
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I mean, I think it's true. >> It's true.
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>> Particularly over there, sometimes it would people would sort of dance around it.
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Um but I really like it when an author's totally direct.
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The way I would always try and reframe it or frame it with them because they're actually on both sides there's a lot of talk about liking a cover or not liking a cover.
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You know, I don't like this cover. I don't like this. I don't like green.
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Like, you know, I imagined it this way.
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I would always try and reframe it in terms of how can we sell the maximum number of copies?
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Whether we like the cover or not, that's kind of not the point.
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I mean, the biggest gene marketing genius I've ever worked with is James Patterson who we publish over here and he has this brilliant phrase uh copyright James Patterson of in terms of covers, I see it, I want it.
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That's when a when a consumer walks into a bookstore ever, I see it, I want it.
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And that that really resonated with me. I see it, I want it.
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And that does not necessarily always mean it's the most elegant cover or the most like you know, sort of like it it is actually I see it, I want it.
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And that there was a piece of research that was done a few years ago.
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People when they're looking at you know, like a table of books or a bank of books, um average dwell time is two to three seconds.
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So, you have to think about it in that context that the most beautiful cover may not be the cover that pops.
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So, if you want the cover to pop, you want you you've got very little time to get people I think of it like a Trojan horse.
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I sometimes talk to writers about that.
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It's like it may not represent absolutely accurately what your book's about, but it's a Trojan horse.
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Like if people don't pick your book up, they won't experience it.
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And if we have a literal thing of what the book is, that might it might not be the right thing for people to pick the book up.
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So, I would always try and frame it with writers in terms of like we know how do we sell the maximum number of copies.
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I would sometimes work with writers who occasionally would say, "Actually, my aim is not selling the maximum number of copies."
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That very occasionally that was the case.
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And I would obviously argue as a book publisher I'd like to sell the maximum number of copies.
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I have been in situations where it's like, "Okay, well, we are going to need to compromise then."
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Um because that you know the aim is something a bit different.
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And I might say like, "Okay, for the hard cover, you know, your aim is to you know make it beautiful and get it in the hands of literary reviewers and stuff.
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And then for the paperback, let's try and sell us the maximum number of copies."
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But general generally I find in terms of authors, I would say be quite straight about it with your editor or your publisher.
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I think it's the same in any business dealings.
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If people are rude on either side, that could damage a business relationship.
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If you put your point in a you know polite straightforward way on both sides, then generally I don't think there's any problem.
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>> It's going to vary a little bit from writer to writer.
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But how much should writers be focused on making money, making a buck, versus hey, I'm here to make art.
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And there's this assumed conflict between the two of them.
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You can either make as much money as you want or you can make great art.
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So, talk to me about that trade-off.
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>> I think I mean I've worked with a wide range of writers and their motivations are really different.
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It's like there is no one size fits all.
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There are some writers, I mean, okay, favorite writer of mine, I don't know if you know this this guy from the early 20th century, Ronald Firbank. Amazing writer.
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He wrote kind of, you know, proto experimental queer novels.
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Like, they're like insane.
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Like, when you read them now, like from the 1920s, they're like it's insane to think that these were 100 years ago.
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He He did this in the full knowledge.
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There was no market for experimental proto queer novels in the 1920s.
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There was literally no market.
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He had them privately produced.
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He He was He had some money.
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Um But, his aim was to write these books that he thought were were important and indeed did turn out to be highly important.
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But, his aim, even now, like he's got a very small readership.
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And then there's other writers who whose aim is to connect with a wide number of readers and to create stories that really resonate with a lot of people.
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So, I would say there's a real spectrum.
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And I've worked That's the fascinating thing about our industry.
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That there is no right There's no right answer there. >> Right.
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If you walk into a trading floor and you ask people, "What are you trying to do here?"
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Basically, every single person will say, "We're trying to make money. Yeah.
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We're trying to make as much money as possible."
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You walk to a writer's conflict, you say, "What are you trying to do here?"
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The range of answers is so wide.
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>> And it And it also depends on people's individual financial circumstances as well and their aims and ambitions for that, you know, I've seen writers who are incredibly attuned to the finances of uh art, you know.
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Um And writers who have literally no idea whatsoever.
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You know, I I I've I've talked to a writer before and I was talking to him about his royalty statement and he said, "Oh god."
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He said, "Yeah, all that I I said yeah, the you know, the paper that comes every 6 months.
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He said I just rip it up and put it in the bin.
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And I was like oh, that's got all the information about how many copies he sold.
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He said I just don't want to know.
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So it's like that versus versus authors I know who are like why am I finished royalties at this level or kind of you know, know know every every last last detail.
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I I think what the all the writers have in common is some sort of love of storytelling, I would say or some sort of love of love of communicating, put it that way. Love of communicating.
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Some people want to communicate to a small number of very in the know, you know, sort of you know, very cerebral people or whatever and some people their passion is to reach the a really wide audience and you know, back to the James Patterson thing like part of his genius is and he's very evangelical about this is like let us tell stories to the widest number of people.
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Let the widest number of people enjoy the magic of storytelling.
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Um and that for me there's something very pure and artistic about that.
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You know, people often will see someone reaching a wide number of readers as a sort of commercial enterprise, but actually there's something really artistic about doing that.
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Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's very war exactly perfect comp.
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Like how do you how do you make art, you know, how do you make art really really accessible?
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And that that is And actually what I would say another thing that does probably unify all the writers I've worked with they're all really smart and interesting.
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So whatever their motivations, whatever whether they're commercial people, whether they're non-commercial people, I don't think I've worked with a writer who isn't both A smart and B interesting.
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>> Yeah, I was thinking about books as art versus books as products.
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You know, a lot of times we think of books as oh my goodness, this is art.
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This is my expression and there's a lot of people who have had on the show who I would put in that category.
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Richard Powers, Ocean Wong, and then I was at Barnes & Noble walking back from the Nets game a few months ago and I'm looking at the books up front and there's this one book super popular.
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Everybody would know it and I'm looking at this book and I'm like, that book has sold really well, but it's not a work of art.
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It's It's It's something else.
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So, I'm sitting there and I'm thinking I'm trying to come up with a word and I'm like, that book is a product.
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That book took a problem that people had, came up with a very very simple clear answer that worked for a lot of people and it's almost like you could ingest this book like a pill and it would solve your problems for you and that's why it sold so well.
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>> I think Yeah, I mean I mean one thing I love about the industry is where creative creativity and commerce meet. Like it's both.
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Um and I actually I remember saying my I mean very long time ago now when I was at college, one of my tutors who was very brilliant was a poet and he talked to me at the time.
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I've always remember this uh this guy Craig Raine.
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He talked to me about the similarity between uh poetry and advertising copywriting.
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And he was saying in both cases it's the best possible words in the best possible order. >> Nice.
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>> You know, and it's so it's like even when you're talking about a product it's like poetry as well.
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Like it's if I think about what you might call a product like a I don't you know, a really effective self-help book or whatever.
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There's real art to that.
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Like the best possible words in the best possible order.
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That art of communication.
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So, I see I see all the I think everything we publish in an artistic sense.
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I I think there's artistry there.
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You know, even if even when it's designed for a very wide audience, when it's got a sort of functional purpose.
24:56
There's something I mean there was actually uh from decades ago with these people the Hessians.
25:02
Millions and millions of copies sold.
25:04
They were just literally how to plant roses or whatever.
25:05
You know, the Brits love gardening.
25:09
So, it's like only in Britain maybe would these books sell millions of copies.
25:11
But like this guy was and you look at you would look at these books and it's like these are just very functional gardening books.
25:16
But he had the unique ability to communicate gardening advice in a way that was really understand that the human brain could understand in a way that no other writer could.
25:25
And to this day these books, you know, selling lots of copies.
25:30
So, I think even when you're looking at something that seems very functional, seems very product-like, it's like he was an artist as well.
25:35
Like he he was a you know, he he really knew.
25:39
>> So, if I'm an author, in what ways should I be thinking about the packaging and the sellability of my book?
25:48
>> I think that totally is dependent on what your aim is as an author. So, okay.
25:53
So, I'll I'll do a different different scenarios.
25:55
If you are an author like I was mentioning Ronald Firbank, an author who's really intent on creating something that matters, don't think about that at all.
26:05
I would honestly say like if if your intent is to create something of lasting artistic worth, if you're not bothered about the financial side of things, then I would actually I think it's actively helpful to put that stuff out of your mind.
26:21
>> Should I have a partner who I work with who's maybe an agent or somebody or should I just say, you know what? I'm making art.
26:27
>> Make the art, then yes, sure.
26:27
Send it to an agent and the agent could be like this is how I think I should talk about your art and talk about it to a publisher.
26:36
So, a good agent in that scenario would be like I see something artistically very interesting here. It's really different.
26:43
Like it's very out there.
26:45
But they will then talk to a publisher about it.
26:49
I'm only thinking I know if it's like, you know, Patricia Lockwood or Ocean Vuong, you know, people innovators, like people who do something really, really different, um they can then talk to a publisher about it and say, this thing, you haven't read anything like this before.
27:00
This is This is something completely new.
27:02
And they will have And the publisher, they'll find the right publishers who are open to that.
27:06
But you, when you're writing, do not think I I think it's actively I've seen too many writers like that actually try to then think what's commercial, and it dilutes their art.
27:20
So, if you're that sort of writer, and that's what's important to you, then I think be very pure about it.
27:23
If you're the kind of writer who's like, I want to reach the widest possible readership, then you should read as much as you can.
27:30
You should go to as many bookstores as you can.
27:34
You should analyze bestseller lists.
27:37
You should look at, you know, covers.
27:39
You should look at what's working out there.
27:42
I mean, I um I've seen, you know, Lee Child, you know, I I I know Lee a bit.
27:47
I haven't worked with you know, we don't publish him, but came on the show. Okay, great.
27:52
And then Well, you'll know him.
27:52
Like, he wanted to reach a lot of readers.
27:54
He wanted it to be very commercially successful.
27:57
He's an intensely smart guy, you know.
27:59
And he did a lot of research.
28:01
So, I think, you know, if that's your aim, then you you know, really do read a lot in the field.
28:06
Really do kind of look at what's what really connects with people.
28:10
Look at, you know, reader reviews of things. Look in bookstores.
28:14
Look at which publishers are uh publishing in particular areas.
28:18
I think for him, actually, he chose his literary agent on the basis of this agent was really good with big commercial authors.
28:27
Had a great track record of like launching big authors.
28:29
So, like, yeah, do your research in terms of agents, as well.
28:35
>> So, the core thing here is you just need to know what it is that you're going for as a writer, and it needs to be honest, and it needs to be authentic. >> Exactly. And be super clear.
28:45
And I think don't be I I think actually this is the same in all life, isn't it?
28:51
It's sort of listening to feedback, but don't listen to too much feedback.
28:55
Because I think the other thing I've seen is sometimes authors go off track cuz they've listened to too much feedback.
29:01
There's a lot of noise in the industry, as you know, and sometimes feedback's totally well-intentioned or normally it's totally well-intentioned, but it can knock someone off course.
29:12
So, I think and that's another reason sometimes it's helpful to have a good agent cuz, you know, to be a kind of North Star almost like the agent will sometimes say, "Don't don't don't you know, just let me deal with that."
29:23
>> And what should I do with having an editor?
29:25
So, the publishers provide editors, I think, who can help you work through your book.
29:34
Is it worth having my own editor as well?
29:37
When is it worth doing that?
29:37
When is it not worth doing that?
29:40
>> All you would say, "Look, if you have sold your book to a publisher, then I do not believe you need your own editor because that's that that the editor's job is to work with you and to shape your book and make it as good as it can be.
29:53
If you have not been able to sell your book to a publisher or you're working on it and you think that could be helpful.
29:59
I don't Again, there's not a one-size-fits-all.
30:01
I think freelance editor can be potentially helpful in terms of getting something into a shape to then interest an agent to then interest a publisher.
30:11
So, you know, and I know a lot a lot of good freelance editors used to work full-time in publishers. I know a bunch of them. I know a ton of them.
30:17
You know, people for whatever reasons have left the industry or want to work part-time or whatever, retired.
30:23
You know, I know some amazing editors who are freelance editors and do great work for authors.
30:29
So, um that can be an option.
30:29
If you have an agent, agents often are really great editors.
30:34
So, so that's probably something that's not talked about enough that a lot of the great agents I know do like three or four rounds of edits with an author before they go on submission.
30:45
So there's some absolutely amazing a editor agents.
30:47
Not all agents, some agents are you know, with their passion is selling things.
30:51
Just selling things or getting the best deal.
30:54
In terms of editors, I've got a strong view for authors.
30:57
Um I've seen this go both ways.
31:00
So often so it the the the kind of dream scenario is when there's a bunch of different houses that are interested in your book. >> Yeah. The bidding war.
31:09
>> Yeah, the bidding war, you know.
31:09
So my advice in that situation actually is pretty categoric, which is move heaven and earth to actually meet all the editors who are bidding for your book. Talk to them.
31:22
>> So it's the editors at the publishing houses who bid. >> Yes.
31:25
You'll have lots of relationships at the publisher.
31:28
Your primary relationship will be with your editor and then the person above them, the publisher.
31:32
That's a key relationship as well.
31:35
>> And the publisher does what?
31:36
>> The publisher like runs the business unit.
31:38
So like if we've got say uh Little Brown, you know, one of our >> That's where you were. >> publishers.
31:43
I was Little Brown UK and it so got on both sides of the Atlantic, Little Brown UK and Little Brown US.
31:46
The publisher here is a brilliant person, Sally Kim. She's the publisher.
31:50
Her job is she's running all the creative functions there.
31:55
She's signing off on what books they publish, what covers go in, what marketing, what publicity, all the creative functions report into Sally.
32:04
Um she's got some very talented editors working in that team.
32:10
So you if if Sally and Little Brown the editor were interested it would be really key in my view if you're an author and you've got five other houses interested try to have a meeting with the editor and Sally or or the editor.
32:23
The things you I would say to be looking out for really are passion, that they get that they get what you're trying to do, that they understand you, that they there's that and chemistry with the editor.
32:39
You will be working so intensively with that person.
32:42
Like I've spent more time with some of my authors than I have with with my friends.
32:44
Like Like you know, like some of my good friends.
32:46
Like you This is a journey you're on together.
32:49
If it all goes well, you know, I have authors I work with for decades.
32:56
You you know, went to their weddings, went to you know, sort of hung out with them.
33:00
Like you spent so much time with them.
33:04
So, I would say it's really imperative you find someone that you just feel almost like a soul It sounds corny like soulmates. You want a soulmate.
33:12
You want someone who really gets you, who really understands you, who's got your back, who's passionate, who's talented.
33:19
Money's important and money might be important, but in the long term, I would say the most important thing is that connection.
33:25
So, my advice to any writer in that dream scenario, or even if there's just one person bidding, like try and meet them, try and talk to them to feel like Do you feel comfortable with this person?
33:35
You've got to Um and and the other the other key person often is the publicist.
33:38
Cuz when you do when you're an author, you're often spending a lot of time with your publicist as well.
33:46
Uh and then obviously then things can happen.
33:48
Editors can leave, publicists can leave.
33:50
But at least in the first instance, try and make sure that there's connection.
33:53
>> So, just to be clear, the publisher, the editor, the publicist, they would all work for the publishing house that I'm partnered with. >> Yes.
34:00
The publicist, they come in when and what do they do?
34:04
So, the publicist will come in They might talk to you right at the start.
34:08
So, when you're acquiring a book, the publicist publicity weigh in.
34:12
So, say at the Little, Brown acquisition meeting, the publicist the head of publicity there will be there and will say, "We think we can get a lot of publicity for this." Or "We love this book." Or whatever.
34:21
Um So, they'll be they'll have a voice at that point.
34:24
But really they'll come in in force when the book uh is coming up for publication.
34:32
They'll be calling, you know, newspapers, they'll be doing, you know, reaching out to me saying, "Hey, you know, you know, you know, podcast."
34:39
And you know, kind of like Instagrammers.
34:43
Like it's changed a lot obviously in the last few years. TikTok's massive.
34:44
Uh, they'll be they'll It depends on the genre and all that sort of thing, but the publicist will really be, you know, largely responsible for making sure that there's buzz.
34:57
You know, that there's reviews lined up, that there's buzz.
34:59
They're also increasingly with bookstores as well.
35:03
Publicity and marketing are trying to make sure there's buzz with the bookstores.
35:07
So, that matters as well.
35:10
>> When I talk to friends, they a lot of them feel like, "Ah, the publisher's just not going to help me that that much with marketing."
35:16
And now, hey, you really got to bring marketing into your own hands these days.
35:20
How true or false is that?
35:24
>> I mean, look, I'm wildly biased, aren't I, cuz I run a publishing company and I really love our marketing teams and I think they're great.
35:31
So, I guess I would argue I do think we've got a lot of skills and expertise in house.
35:35
Um, that said, um, we've had happy experiences where our marketing teams have worked with an author who also has their own freelance marketing team team or person or freelance publicist.
35:49
Um, I would say generally though, broad brush, the publisher should be able to do that stuff for you.
35:55
I would say there's a bit of a warning light if the publisher says to you as an author, "You need to hire your own marketing team."
36:04
So, I have heard that sometimes.
36:06
I think that's maybe a bit of a red flag because a good publisher should, in my view, be providing that service for you.
36:15
But you know, actually I'd say in the field of say, let's take business books, um, I'm a CEO, we've published other CEOs.
36:23
There's type A personalities that Yeah, like Ray Dalio when he did the whole principles launch, he must have had >> Yeah, so there's there's there's there's a combination of sometimes, let's put it delicately, tight papers and financial resources.
36:36
So, we have had, you know, there are experiences sometimes where a CEO or whoever, like someone uh or or or let's say even a major brand or a really major brand author rightly will sometimes be like, you've got your team, they're doing their thing, no criticism, like that's great, but I want to just amplify this. >> Yeah.
36:54
>> Like I just want to add this extra layer on top, and that's fine.
36:57
>> So, let me try to add some structure to this, cuz here's what I'm hearing, that there's really three things that are going on.
37:02
The first is there's what the publisher can do from a marketing perspective, and my sense is there's probably things around distribution that are distribution adjacent, like uh getting the end caps at Barnes & Noble, being on the front tables there, being on billboards, like I don't know how to buy a billboard.
37:17
Maybe you guys have billboard ad inventory with Clear Channel or CBS, whatever it is.
37:21
So, there's things that you guys can uniquely do as a publishing house.
37:25
Then there's other things that authors can uniquely do.
37:29
Those are probably going to be a little bit more grassroots.
37:30
For example, when James Clear when he did Atomic Habits, I think he had like 80 podcasts that launched that week.
37:38
There's probably things around BookTok and Twitter and like clipping up different things that you've made about your book, that's more kind of guerrilla marketing tactics that are going to end up being more solo.
37:48
And then the third one is now I have a lot of money, I can break the bank.
37:53
This isn't going to apply for early authors.
37:54
This will apply more to people who do have that, but there are ways that then you can basically buy publicity on your own. >> Exactly.
38:02
No, I think that's very well put.
38:03
I think to your point number two, the disruptive marketing and actually in all fairness, sometimes there are marketing geniuses that we publish.
38:13
And they will say, well, Jim Patterson being one of them, like they will sometimes say like, you do things your way, that's fine, but I've got these other ideas that actually publishing has not and James Clear is probably another one publishing has not done yet and I want to do that as well and sometimes I have to say as well we have learned from that.
38:29
We're like okay we thought we knew everything we don't and you did this thing and we're actually now going to learn from that.
38:36
>> Well the fact of the matter is the world changes faster than any big organization can adapt.
38:40
So at any point there's going to be new marketing channels that are on the cutting edge that I think are going to be available to any author. >> Yes.
38:50
Yes, exactly and and I think sometimes I think publishing gets a bad rap in terms of being traditional being slow moving blah blah blah.
38:57
I think it's faster moving than people think.
38:59
I think it's more dynamic than people think but at the same time sometimes it does take a bit of disruption like it sometimes we do we do get a bit disrupted from the outside and I think that's healthy.
39:12
>> Should I go for the biggest advance when I write my first book?
39:15
>> I'll give you two scenarios I suppose I'll you know anonymize both of them.
39:21
Well known celebrity wanted to do a memoir.
39:26
There were different offers and some of them were around we want to position you in this way as you know a proper author one offer was we'll just give you lots of money.
39:42
We don't really know what we'll do with the book but we'll give you lots of money.
39:46
The author went with the lots of money option and the book sank.
39:51
And in my view in that case the author could have done better going with one of the publishers who had said we have this vision for how to publish your book and how to reach a market and in that case had said actually oh I like these ideas but actually you know I want this extra money.
40:10
The author got that extra money but the book sank.
40:12
But then again you know I don't know the author's fi know that person's financial situation.
40:15
Like sometimes I think if you if your aim is just I want to maximize my amount of money right now, um then probably going with the maximum amount of money is the thing.
40:26
If you if your desire is to build a long-term career, I think it's highly important to listen to your gut in terms of who you're going to work well with, who's going to be the best long-term home for you.
40:39
We have other publishers that often one thing is is the underbidder, you know, so the the publisher that offers a bit less, but the author connects more with the editor, or the author connects more with the vision of the the house.
40:49
I would say that can sometimes be a better long-term strategy, because sometimes the amount of money on offer is driven by other things.
41:00
It doesn't mean necessarily if someone offers you a bit less money than someone else that they love your book less or that they are going to do a worse job with it.
41:06
Sometimes they could do a better job with it, but the other publisher just, you know, sort of caught the finance director on a better day or have you know, sort of uh you whatever it or they were just keen just to fill a list or to buy lots of books.
41:21
Ultimately, if you're building a long-term career, everything evens out.
41:25
If you are, you know, planning to do a long-term career, if you do sometimes take a large advance and it doesn't work out, if the fit isn't right, if they don't really understand you, then that will cause some problems later down the line, cuz then your track record won't be as good.
41:42
You'll be more compromised when it comes to negotiating a new deal, that publisher might have lost interest, other publishers might, you know, they versus where someone might be offering less, but be super passionate, have a real uh plan in place, be able to work with you to make your book as good as it can be.
42:00
I mean, actually I'll give you another example where an editor an author had a book.
42:05
Uh it was a very good book, but the ending just didn't work.
42:10
Talked to different editors.
42:10
There was one particular editor who was like, "I know exactly what I think you should do with this ending."
42:16
The editor and the author worked together and the book did enormously well, and a lot of what people were praising were like the atmosphere, characters, and the ending.
42:27
Like I said, people were like, "That was an amazing twist at the ending.
42:30
I never saw that coming." So, it was a thriller.
42:31
"I never saw that coming. That was incredible." Sold a million copies.
42:35
So, even though say the advance was minimal in that case, and the author could have got another $10,000 going elsewhere, they more than made up for it by by that editor knowing exactly what to do with that book to reach the widest audience.
42:51
>> What do you think that James Daunt has done so well with Waterstones and Barnes & Noble to get this resurgence of big blockbuster bookstores?
42:59
Going back 10 years, it really felt like these big bookstores were in decline, and Barnes & Noble seems to be doing very well, and I love Waterstones.
43:10
>> I I think if I had to pinpoint, James does a lot of things brilliantly.
43:13
If I had to really pinpoint the main thing is I think he makes these he's made Waterstones and he's making Barnes & Noble into environments that are beautiful, that you want to spend time in.
43:26
And I would say prior to his arrival in Waterstones and in B&N, they were bookstores. They were functional.
43:31
Um not that they were unpleasant places.
43:34
They were They were decent places.
43:36
I think what he is able to do is to make them into this environment where you're like, "I want to go and hang out there." >> Mhm.
43:45
>> Like Like I like I actually want to go and spend some time there.
43:46
Like in, you know, just taking You've spent time in London in Waterstones has these lovely like wooden tables, like kind of old wood.
43:55
I mean, it's rather like your environment here, actually.
43:56
Like he he makes it into a space where you're like, "It's almost like being invited into a lovely house or something like that." >> Yeah.
44:04
>> And he is able to uh would say curation as well.
44:08
It used to be and actually just a technical thing that used to happen.
44:15
Certainly in the UK was like publishers used to kind of pay for space.
44:17
And what it meant was that there was like a kind of commercial negotiation for space.
44:25
So a publisher might be like, we've got this big blockbuster.
44:27
We really need to get lots of copies out there.
44:28
They would do a deal with Waterstones.
44:33
And but it wasn't necessarily the best book for Waterstones or its customers.
44:39
And what James did was to say construct new commercial models where it's like, look, if we're promoting a book, we have a different commercial model, but we will choose what we promote. You won't tell us.
44:48
You know, we you won't like pitch thing.
44:50
We will You almost can't pitch things.
44:52
We will read the books and we'll see what we think. We know our customers.
44:57
And we think we know what our customers like.
45:00
We know how to kind of pick books that will really appeal to them.
45:03
They might be different to books elsewhere in the market.
45:06
What you think of as a big blockbuster might be different What you think.
45:09
And he's been amazingly successful at that.
45:10
And sometimes I have to say he would champion books on our list that our sales people hadn't necessarily thought were the standout book for for What's that?
45:21
They were the Waterstones team or the Barnes & Noble team would be like, we love this book. We pick it.
45:30
And they'll sometimes as well, I have to say say to us but we don't think the cover's right.
45:37
We think there's a different cover you could use for that book that would be more appealing to our customers.
45:42
And often within amounts of copies they're talking about, we would say, okay.
45:46
Like, you know, we'll change the cover.
45:48
We'll talk to the author and say, look, we love this cover, you love this cover, but Barnes & Noble think that they can reach more people with this other cover. >> They're like Costco.
45:55
They have enough money that if Costco tells a soup manufacturer, hey, this is what we want, the soup manufacturer basically has to bow down.
46:04
>> Yeah, and and also and also I would say more than that is like they know the customer better than we do.
46:08
I like to think that we know book customers.
46:10
I like to think, you know, authors when they write their books, they have an idea, but really it's the retailers who understand their customers better than anyone.
46:18
So, if James says to me "I don't think you've got the cover right."
46:23
I would agree to that because I trust his expertise more than the you know, it's sort of commercial money question.
46:31
Like it's like, "Okay, he he kind of knows what he's talking about."
46:34
>> Can you tell me about this observation that you made, which I think is really interesting, about how many successful writers have a strong moral sense about them?
46:46
>> So, this is maybe a This is maybe in my experience of working with authors.
46:51
Uh I think there's something that as humans we gravitate to when someone has a really clear view of things and is has a strong sort of moral anchor almost.
47:06
I mean, I will illustrate this.
47:06
I have the great privilege of having worked with Mitch Albom.
47:10
And what fascinates me about Mitch is like he just has I I find him as a person and as a writer like a seer. Like he's like a seer.
47:18
Like he really sees things that I don't see. Like he guides me.
47:27
>> It almost seems like he's anointed. >> Yeah. Yeah.
47:29
Almost says like, "Where does this come from?"
47:30
Um and I think and that, you know, and he's obviously been wildly successful all around the world as well.
47:37
Um and I think I think that readers I think we like we like it when someone has a sort of moral universe.
47:47
That there's an integrity to it.
47:49
That there's a there's something coherent.
47:51
I'm thinking like again like thinking about C. S. Lewis and Narnia.
47:55
Like you know, as a kid like I love that that series.
47:57
And I think I And I wasn't thinking, you know, only later did I realize, oh, he was, you know, Christian and, you know, sort of Christian theology, whatever.
48:05
But, there was this this sense of like Aslan had this immense presence to him.
48:12
And that there was this this sort of system of values that was really compelling.
48:17
I think Lord of the Rings as well.
48:20
Like, some sometimes like uh in in science fiction and fantasy particularly, I think there can be these kind of moral universes.
48:29
And I think there's something there's something almost seer-like about great great writers that that that I think is sometimes in the subtext of their work.
48:39
It's not sort of in the text.
48:41
I'm only thinking like Sally Rooney, for instance.
48:42
Like, there's a subtext to to her work.
48:47
Uh that where there's a I'd say a very strong moral underpinning.
48:51
>> Yeah, I'm just looking at my bookshelf here.
48:54
I see Camille Paglia, I see Michel Houellebecq, I see Rilke, I see Nietzsche.
49:00
When I look at those think of those writers, I think of a strong point of view. >> Yeah.
49:06
>> About how the world should be, how the world shouldn't be, what we should do, what we shouldn't do.
49:09
And feel free to disagree with them, of course.
49:13
But, they have a sense of right and wrong.
49:15
They're not indifferent about the world, and that shows up in the writing. >> divides.
49:23
>> I think some of the biggest IP of all time is like that.
49:25
If I think Narnia, Lord of the Rings, Harry Potter, like like Disney like So, the strongest creative IP of all time has that.
49:34
I can't actually think of an exception to that.
49:37
I can't actually think of one where it's like you know, you're not really sure.
49:40
Like, you know, or there's there's no you know, it's a good story, but there's no there there.
49:47
Like, I think I think that's when you think about morality as well.
49:51
You know, I spent a lot of my career in mystery and thrillers.
49:55
Um with mysteries, it's really strong that the villain gets brought to justice in every single one.
50:01
And like I've published hundreds of books.
50:03
In every single one, the villain gets brought to justice.
50:08
Like the villain does not escape.
50:08
Like the villain does not prevail.
50:11
Well, actually maybe Patricia Highsmith and Talented Mr.
50:15
Ripley is a bit of an exception.
50:17
You know, but like I wouldn't actually put place that in that category.
50:21
Like So, I I think there's something immensely appealing for readers it of like that that that is what happens. Justice is served.
50:32
>> That story is phenomenal. The Talented Mr. Ripley. Holy cow.
50:34
I haven't read the book, but I've watched the movie and it is so good.
50:40
>> And and maybe that's even that's got its own because it's own sort of morality to it.
50:43
It's a different sort of morality. >> Yeah.
50:46
Tell me about mystery and thrillers.
50:49
Just break down what you've learned about each genre and how those genres are the same and different.
50:56
>> So, like mystery, as I say, there is a crime is committed.
51:01
That 99% of the time a murder or several murders.
51:07
And there is a puzzle element to it.
51:10
Like who committed the murder?
51:10
Why did they commit the murder?
51:13
Um and there is usually a or almost always a some sort of protagonist involved in working that out.
51:19
Whether it's an amateur detective, whether it's a private eye, whether it's police. >> Like Sherlock Holmes.
51:25
>> And like Sherlock Holmes is, you know, an archetype for that.
51:27
But um there is some And again, I think as a you know, I'm I'm personally passionate about this.
51:33
I've worked, you know, I take this amazing um mystery author Val McDermid I work with uh Patricia Cornwell.
51:39
Like incredible authors in that field who are true artists and you know, true poets as as well.
51:47
So, there's enormous amount of artistry in that field, but it's like a haiku.
51:52
Like a crime will be committed and a crime will be solved.
51:54
But like how that happens, there's so much there's so much texture, uh there's so much nuance, um but but that that is really a thriller and a great thriller writer I worked with uh years ago, Jeff Abbott, he put it to me all his books were uh the most uh dramatic moment of an ordinary person's life.
52:19
So, so through actually in thrillers take more different forms, I guess.
52:22
There is the sort of what you call a domestic thriller. >> Mhm.
52:24
>> Like an ordinary person happens to get swept up in a heist.
52:29
Uh uh an ordinary person is walking down the street and something dramatic happens. Or it can be like spies.
52:35
Or it can be, you know, sort of we publish the guy Mick Herron, I don't know if you know Mick Herron, great spy series.
52:42
Um it can >> of Gone Girl.
52:45
>> Gone Girl is like a domestic thriller. >> Gillian Flynn.
52:49
>> And that and that was like so innovative as well and and also literary, you know, that's just I think that really literary in tone, um very very clever, uh and a thriller I think will have a lot of twists and turns.
53:01
I think the the key thing in a thriller is expect the unexpected.
53:03
I think what people read thrillers for, again, there's resolution at the end often, but but not always good doesn't always prevail in a thriller.
53:11
A thriller will be twists and turns.
53:13
I you didn't see that coming, you didn't see that coming. You never expected that.
53:17
Very fast-paced, um often very televisual in a way, like things exploding, people shooting each other unexpectedly, a man with a gun, um and I guess sort of adrenaline, some sort of adrenaline like associated with thrillers.
53:35
>> And now tell me about horror.
53:37
Horror, it seems like it's coming back, huh?
53:39
>> It's definitely coming back.
53:39
In a different way though.
53:41
So, I think So, if you look at sort of traditional horror.
53:45
So, when I started in publishing, a horror novel might be like There was literally a horror novel called Slime, and there was stuff That's like a bunch of slime that like kind of like slimed itself on people.
53:56
Like I would say uh There was It's maybe you know, it's sort of it was like schlock.
54:04
It like Can I use the word you know, it's sort of They were But but then also, to be fair, like I mean only you know, you the great genius in this field is Stephen King.
54:13
And Stephen King, I think he's a timeless genius and other other authors as well.
54:18
But But he is a timeless genius in that way.
54:20
And it would be And he he I think he's outside category, actually.
54:25
But he's the you know, the sense of menace, the sense sense of unease, the sense of Oh you know, sort of like just something just you feel it in the pit of your stomach.
54:35
It's almost like a visceral I'd say horror for me is almost rather than about subject, about a feeling it evokes in the pit of your stomach, of dread.
54:43
Uh like being on a fairground ride or something.
54:46
The latest round of horror is more like We've seen queer horror, we've seen feminist horror.
54:53
We've seen almost like sort of things subverted.
54:58
Like universes where >> Why would that work in horror?
55:03
Like I'm You're talking about subversion, and you're talking about horror, and it's not clear to me why the why the Venn diagram between those should be so big.
55:11
>> I think because horror itself is a subversive genre.
55:13
So, in horror unlike any other This is the first time I've probably thought about this.
55:19
It's slightly unformed thoughts.
55:20
But in horror, I think it anything goes.
55:25
Like it could be a load of slime, it could be a demonic dog, it could be wh- whatever.
55:29
Like like there's almost I think fewer rules than any other category.
55:34
Good does not need to prevail in horror.
55:37
Like things it's deliberately should be shocking.
55:40
So, you almost it's almost a genre where it lends itself to innovation, I think.
55:46
When you've got something where there aren't rules, whatever, then I think you've got a young generation of, you know, feminist writers, queer writers being like, well, I'm going to, you know, I it's right for it's absolutely right for subversion.
55:59
A lot of genres you're relying on likeability.
56:02
I think horror, that's not a thing.
56:05
>> It doesn't need to I mean, maybe there are likeability likeability the likeability of the characters. >> Yeah.
56:09
So, or not even likeability, relatability.
56:10
Like, if you're looking at a literary novel, a you know, crime novel, you know, it's sort of like like sometimes like that you want to be in with the characters.
56:19
With horror, that's not really a thing cuz the thing is slime or it's kind of attack birds that attack or it's like you know, a giant vat of radioactive material or it's whatever kind of uh shapeshifting or the kind of you you you're it's almost like more conceptual. >> Yeah.
56:40
>> Conceptual and visceral.
56:41
So, you're not you have characters and the characters are important, but that that's not the thing and the characters often you want them to act in surprising or disgusting or um morally upsetting ways. >> This is really good.
56:56
Can I ask you about a few other sections of the book publishing industry? Children's books.
57:02
>> I mean, children's books, I think is I I think it's such a wide spectrum.
57:05
That is not the field I grew up in, but you know, I've been, you know, CEO for some time now.
57:12
I spend a lot of time with children's authors.
57:13
They've explained to me as well like it is not one thing.
57:17
Children's books is not one thing.
57:18
Picture books, there's picture books, there's middle grade, there's YA.
57:20
And even with you know, within that, there's all different sorts of things.
57:24
You know, I think children's anchoring is really important.
57:28
Um so, whether it's a picture book, whether it's a middle grade book, whether it's a Y YA book, that there's a sort of coherent universe.
57:39
And it's to some degree maybe a safe universe for a child to inhabit. Let me show you this.
57:50
>> It's really fun just having a bunch of books on the >> Yeah, you've got a great bookshelf.
57:54
>> You know, I've never I've never picked up a book from the bookshelf in an interview here.
57:58
This is my 30th one here.
58:02
So, this is my favorite children's book from growing up. It's called Flight.
58:07
And it tells the story of Charles Lindbergh and his Spirit of St. Louis.
58:10
And so, as you were talking about it, I was like, what is it that I loved about this?
58:13
And I think one of the things about children's books is because it's so rooted in pictures, as a kid, you could really imagine that scene. And Oh, yeah.
58:26
Like, I remember looking at this image when I was a kid.
58:28
And just thinking of the Wow, I can't even imagine you're now flying across the world.
58:35
And I remember thinking of this right here.
58:40
>> Wow, the illustrations are great. >> They're really good.
58:41
So, this is Lindbergh, middle of the night, he's flying across the Atlantic by himself.
58:46
And I remember just the terror of what it must have been like.
58:48
But you can go through that sort of movie in a children's book really fast, in 5 minutes, 10 minutes before bed.
58:56
And then presumably you're kind of dreaming on it. >> Yeah.
59:01
>> And so, I have these very intimate relationships with children's books in a way that I don't have with books that are just text.
59:10
>> Well, I'll tell you, there's this really interesting sales dynamic that speaks to that, which is that really beloved picture books, they can keep growing in sales >> Cuz I'm buying that for my kid. >> Exactly.
59:22
So, that's exactly what happens, that it's like people will read them as kids, they'll stay with them in this incredible way.
59:28
They will then buy them for their kids, kids in their life, whatever, and it's just kind of mushrooming uh effect that is just quite extraordinary.
59:39
Like there is no other I would say there is no other category like it.
59:43
And they can often start off I would say, you know, I've thought with countless picture books that start up will print a thousand copies.
59:50
Fast forward 40 years and you've sold 10 million copies.
59:53
I can't think of another category quite like that, where it's literally just like kid after kid after kid after kid becomes an adult.
1:00:02
>> So, is the movement of the back catalog in books made for kids different than the movement of the back catalog for books made for adults? >> Totally.
1:00:11
So, the back catalog in kids accounts for a lot more than it does often in adults.
1:00:16
And there will be particular titles.
1:00:18
It's a little bit I mean, upsides and downsides.
1:00:21
The downside if you're an author, it can be in terms of the back catalog a bit feast or famine.
1:00:28
So, there are some books that for whatever reason just capture people's imagination.
1:00:32
So, that in in children's yeah, the back catalog is really really important. >> Right. Right.
1:00:41
And how is publishing different?
1:00:41
Let's take three markets, France, UK, and America.
1:00:49
>> UK and America very similar. >> Huh.
1:00:51
>> France very different.
1:00:51
So, I would say you know, obviously I've got now experience on both sides of >> Hachette's a French company.
1:00:59
>> Hachette's a French company.
1:00:59
Um and pretty federal in terms of we've got France, Spain, uh UK, US are our key markets.
1:01:09
Um UK and US I'd say fiction the markets are very similar.
1:01:12
It's something I don't know, you you can think of an author uh that that well Michael Connelly works really well in the in the UK and the US.
1:01:24
Like it's it's unusual probably to find an author who works really a fiction author who works really well in one or not the other, unless it's some guy writing about the American Civil War or something like that, which is only to British people, or some kind of very British humor or something like that.
1:01:39
So there there's there's there's broadly I'd say fiction very similar, non-fiction quite similar if it's like you know, you talk about James Clear self-help, that sort of thing, like that's pretty similar.
1:01:51
Uh but then different in some fields.
1:01:51
So sports very very different. >> Yeah. >> Very different.
1:01:57
Cookery often very different.
1:02:01
You know, Ina Garten really big over here, not very well known in the UK.
1:02:06
You know, Jamie Oliver very well known in the UK, not so well known over here.
1:02:09
Like there's some some regional stuff like that, but broadly UK US similar.
1:02:13
One difference actually interestingly, which I think is a historical difference is Americans love hardcovers.
1:02:16
Uh British people love paperbacks.
1:02:19
So in Britain like the the the hardcover sales will be fairly small, and then the big market's the paperback.
1:02:28
Whereas in the US it's pretty much the other way around.
1:02:31
The hardcover is often the biggest format, and then the paperback smaller.
1:02:37
>> And just to confirm, what generally happens with a book is the book comes out and then that hardcover will be the only option for 9 months a year, and then they'll basically be a second launch at some point to launch the paperback. >> Correct.
1:02:52
Although in the US if something's going really well, often a US publisher will extend that.
1:02:55
That does not happen in the UK.
1:02:58
>> And the hardcover's good because there's it's more expensive, bigger margins. >> Broadly.
1:03:02
If some when something's going well, when something's not going well, it can be worse margins.
1:03:06
So um you know, cuz if those books don't sell, it's more costly and etc.
1:03:11
But yeah, like if if you've got if you've got a book that's doing really well and it's doing really well in hard cover that and it's good for the author because the author gets a higher royalty for the hard cover cuz of the price uh than they do for the paperback.
1:03:27
So, there's a sort of built-in I'd say advantage of the US market that the consumer seem to prefer that that format.
1:03:36
I would say that maybe shifting a little bit.
1:03:40
And there's I mean I think we also you know, this is maybe a kind of social thing but like being conscious that you know, people don't always have a lot of money.
1:03:49
Um mass market the mass market format in the US has now been sort of discontinued.
1:03:53
So, the stores are basically said we don't want mass markets. What does that mean?
1:03:56
So, there used to be you know, the very small uh paper bags.
1:04:01
The smaller like you know, that you could fit in your pockets. >> Yeah.
1:04:06
>> So, those were those have like diminished over the last few decades.
1:04:10
>> I hate reading that kind of book.
1:04:10
They they the form factor makes it way harder to read.
1:04:19
Like >> If you got so Yeah, that that format. Yeah, exactly.
1:04:24
You see personally I quite like that cuz I do sometimes like literally to put a book in my pocket but >> I don't know. Compare these two.
1:04:29
This to me is like a mass market. They tend to be smaller. >> Yes, exactly. Yes, exactly.
1:04:33
That's a mass market format.
1:04:35
>> but but my issue is how fast they close. >> I Yeah, yeah, yeah.
1:04:39
>> if you compare these, they snap shut.
1:04:41
The there's a book The Technological Society by Jacques Ellul.
1:04:46
I remember buying that in the mass market paperback and be like I can't read this just because of the way it's printed.
1:04:51
But then if you look at this, you see how it sits flat?
1:04:55
Whereas this one doesn't. It's almost the same.
1:04:57
>> maybe I'm seeing in real time the American consumer reacts to it like this is like this is fascinating.
1:05:02
Like maybe I hadn't actually considered the opening and closing of books.
1:05:06
Maybe this is >> It's like the same size but this is wonderful.
1:05:11
>> like it to have [laughter] them them No, I mean I mean and look there's and I think as publishers I see our role as reacting to consumer behavior and giving consumers what they want and consumers you're right consumers want that.
1:05:21
They don't seem to want that.
1:05:23
>> So I didn't realize that the mass market paperback was a thing, but so many of the books I've bought that I've been like I can't read this thing is the mass market paperback.
1:05:31
>> So so that is now gone that is now gone basically.
1:05:36
Um and yeah, but there's there's an enthusiasm for hard covers and there's some enthusiasm for what we call trade paperbacks, the bigger paperbacks as well.
1:05:45
>> I bought this right when I was working at Eton College outside of London for >> Oh, okay.
1:05:49
It's a lovely little Yeah, it's a lovely little edition.
1:05:52
Um You you asked about France as well.
1:05:56
France is very different.
1:05:56
So there used to be a sort of truism in publishing that if you sell translation rights to France, you probably won't sell them anywhere else.
1:06:06
And if you sell them everywhere else, you probably won't sell them to France.
1:06:09
So uh and this is again a truism, but the French market does tend to be a bit more cerebral.
1:06:16
It does tend to be a bit more intellectual.
1:06:18
They are broadly very interested in you know, big themes, philosophy.
1:06:25
>> Yeah, the philosophy bookstores in Paris and Montreal are so good. >> Yeah.
1:06:31
>> We don't have that in the city.
1:06:31
>> We don't have It's a different It's a different culture.
1:06:34
I mean, you know, and I spend a lot of time in France dealing with French people.
1:06:37
I think culture is taken very very seriously there.
1:06:40
And I think books are taken very very seriously and so there's a certain part of me that's quite envious of that.
1:06:45
You know, they have like a books minister.
1:06:50
They have like you know, you know, they're they're they um they really center it in a culture in a way that we don't in the US or the UK actually.
1:06:57
So um but yeah, and and look at and actually to be to be fair, you know, French readers do love romanticism.
1:07:04
They do have sprayed edges.
1:07:06
They do They do all these things.
1:07:08
Michael Connelly has picked that.
1:07:08
Like so all of that is true.
1:07:09
But I would say there's a definitely there are some authors who are huge there that are huge nowhere else that they may be more intellectual.
1:07:20
>> One thing that I'm surprised about in the publishing industry is that the industry writ large has not embraced the economics of bundles.
1:07:27
And TV people understand this super well, right?
1:07:31
Like this is where the cable bundle works so well.
1:07:34
You just bundle a bunch of stuff together, people pay more for it, and amortized across all the different consumers, you make more money.
1:07:42
What you haven't had in the publishing industry is I would love to buy multiple units of the same book, but I get the e-book, I get the hard cover, I get the audiobook, and I can do one purchase all three.
1:07:56
The closest thing that the industry has right now is you can buy a Kindle book on Amazon, and then you get a discount on the audiobook, which is nice.
1:08:05
But man, I would love to just buy book bundles, and my friend Paul Millard, I have to give him credit for this for this idea.
1:08:14
That hasn't happened, and it seems like an obvious thing that publishers could do.
1:08:20
>> I think it I mean it's an interesting question.
1:08:21
It comes up every so often.
1:08:21
We think about it every so often.
1:08:23
I think stepping back, our job is to make sure that our authors and our shareholders, you know, get the best return.
1:08:34
So the authors um make the best living that they can, and our shareholders are happy with us.
1:08:42
We're maximizing the value of the precious creative content that we publish.
1:08:47
Um so far, I personally haven't, you know, and every publisher offers it differently.
1:08:52
Everyone's got different views.
1:08:53
I personally haven't seen a sort of compelling economic model that would work well for both consumers and creatives that would allow that and you may well, you know, want that.
1:09:08
It's not something and as I say, we try to listen to the market.
1:09:14
We try to listen to what people are asking >> something people ask for.
1:09:17
>> It's not something that we have seen a lot.
1:09:18
We have seen other things like you know, we do to some extent work with kind of streaming type models.
1:09:23
So like, you know, Kindle Unlimited for instance. >> Spotify now. >> Spotify now.
1:09:28
So I would say there's more appetite for that model.
1:09:31
I say from a consumer point of view, what we've seen, we do quite a lot of consumer research.
1:09:37
We've definitely seen consumers say we we like to have the ability to have like all content delivered to us like this, to have that sort of choice and we obviously then need to think, well, how can we do that and also ensure that we're not selling the farm, but that
1:09:53
definitely I would say has been more of a focus for us in terms of what people's appetite, you know, what consumer appetite is and there is definitely I I'd say you I put you in the sort of top 1% of bookishness and and I'd say I mainly get that question from the top 1%. You know, the
1:10:09
You know, the people I bet you buy a ton of books in all different formats. I can see that.
1:10:16
You're a very book, you know, you're a you're a proper top echelon book lover.
1:10:21
I I I suppose where the sweet spot, you know, we're obviously trying to serve you and your 1% of amazing book lovers.
1:10:27
>> Right, but you need to serve the masses.
1:10:28
>> We need to serve we need to serve you know, so so So and and actually what's been exciting for some of the other, you know, just take some of the more streaming type things, we know that I think I think I've got this statistic correct that with James Patterson um that say for Spotify listens that uh >> For the audio books.
1:10:50
>> For the audio books that there's a large percentage of those that are younger listeners who've never listened to a book before.
1:10:58
And we know that there's a large percentage who've never, you know, not regular book readers or you know, so sometimes they're like we're always trying to serve all sorts of different markets, but it is exciting on a sort of commercial level and I suppose a societal level think wow, we can reach people who, you know, this is not normally what they do.
1:11:15
>> My sense is that e-book growth it's still growing, but it's been slower than a lot of people thought it would have been maybe going back 10 years ago and now a lot of the growth in the publishing space is with audiobooks. >> Correct.
1:11:32
I I think there's actually a very nice scenario.
1:11:34
Yeah, cuz I was obviously there when e-books were exploding and we didn't know where it was going to go.
1:11:39
We thought like there was a scenario definitely where we thought is this going to be the end of print books?
1:11:46
That that that was a real thing. >> Yep.
1:11:48
>> That was a real thing.
1:11:48
That was a real emotion at the time.
1:11:50
We did a lot of kind of catastrophe planning.
1:11:51
What's been amazing um to see actually is younger generation >> back to physical.
1:11:59
>> Back to physical books.
1:11:59
So Gen Z, Gen Alpha, there's a large percentage that really love the physical books.
1:12:04
We did these wonderful um books in the UK Heartstopper by Alice Oseman.
1:12:08
It tied into a Netflix series.
1:12:10
It was incredible to me to actually to see the percentage of physical to digital.
1:12:15
So it was a very younger readership, very very young group, you know, readership and the younger readership was like overwhelmingly physical.
1:12:23
I mean they were graphic novels, so it lends itself to to physical, but overwhelmingly physical.
1:12:28
We hear sentiment all the time uh from younger people of like I like physical books.
1:12:34
Uh and I think you know, for us that they're more well, you you obviously value them.
1:12:38
They're beautiful objects, but they're kind of utility.
1:12:42
For younger people often it's like almost like uh beauty.
1:12:44
Like it they and as going to the sprayed edges, it's a they're beautiful things.
1:12:50
>> I think there's beauty and also signaling.
1:12:52
>> I if I'm bringing a book out and I'm reading on my phone, I can't signal, man, I'm a book reader.
1:12:59
But all the time on weekends, I see people walking around coffee shops, restaurants, reading a book and it's almost a fashion statement.
1:13:07
>> I think it's that and I think it's also I'm really intrigued again as a non-digital native.
1:13:12
I grew up in an analog world.
1:13:16
Um the my relationship to digital actually is very different to digital natives and I think digital natives, you know, Gen Z, Gen Alpha will preemptively be selecting to do analog things sometimes.
1:13:30
And I think it's that as well.
1:13:30
I think it's actually mental health related sometimes.
1:13:35
It's like actually time off a device is good. >> Totally.
1:13:38
>> Uh time with a physical book is good.
1:13:38
So it's like kind of healing a healing thing as well.
1:13:42
You So yes, definitely we've seen ebooks, but I think ebooks have have plateaued in a nice way in terms of like they serve a number of different needs.
1:13:51
They serve the need of actually someone who doesn't have who's a really prolific reader.
1:13:55
So these are different profiles of people who love ebooks.
1:13:59
Really prolific readers maybe don't have that much money.
1:14:04
Um you there is obviously an investment in an e-reader, but once you've made that investment, they will often look for, you know, special deals, things like that.
1:14:11
They'll be able to load up their e-reader.
1:14:12
Uh that older readers the top the font size.
1:14:15
I'm definitely struggling with this myself now like font size is really really important.
1:14:20
Uh e-readers, you know, you can vary that so it's invaluable.
1:14:25
Portability, you can get any book anywhere anytime.
1:14:27
So there's that sort of there's that sort of reader.
1:14:30
There's also now um younger readers coming into your on on on on ebook.
1:14:35
Um but it's it's it's sort of nice.
1:14:38
That's the And then and audio as you say is everyone and it's actually a lot of younger men coming in.
1:14:42
It's the only area where we're seeing uh a lot of male entrance to the market.
1:14:48
>> Back to the bundle point earlier, to put a finer comb on it, the thing that makes audiobooks and ebooks different is that they're zero marginal cost.
1:14:59
But from my view of the industry, they're not treated that differently.
1:15:04
And the publishing industry hasn't looked at them and said, "Hey, these are zero marginal cost products.
1:15:11
Let's treat them very differently."
1:15:13
They're sort of treated like the same.
1:15:14
And I think that there's ways to get creative.
1:15:16
Obviously, I'm outside the industry, so I'm just thinking about stuff.
1:15:20
I don't have skin in the game here.
1:15:21
But one thing that you could do is maybe say, "Hey, a book is coming out.
1:15:25
We're going to have a discount on the ebook in the first week, and then the price will rise over time.
1:15:33
And then that way it makes it more likely that people read the book right when it's come out.
1:15:37
And all this to say, it seems like there's opportunities to experiment here that aren't being done.
1:15:45
>> Uh yeah, I mean I I obviously uh sorry, my slight though I can feel my lawyer on my back here in terms of, you know, like how we speak about this, but I would say broadly speaking, we have definitely seen I can only talk for a shot.
1:15:57
Um we saw a massive surge in costs up post COVID.
1:16:00
So the whole supply chain, paper, shipping, printing, everything like that.
1:16:06
A massive surge in costs.
1:16:07
We look at everything in the round.
1:16:09
So we don't we have to look at, you know, just a whole cost base.
1:16:13
So to your point about sort of marginal cost or whatever, we have to look at the whole thing. >> Mhm.
1:16:20
>> So it is definitely the case in the last few years that print books have got enormously more expensive to produce. >> By how much?
1:16:27
>> Oh, by I mean, it depends on the different sort of format, but like 30 40% in some cases.
1:16:31
So um we have again, not to be too specific about it, we have some formats that are loss leaders.
1:16:36
And some formats that are more profitable.
1:16:41
And uh I mean, I guess it's like when you're an airline and you've got some seats that deliver you more value than others.
1:16:47
>> They just make money from the credit cards. >> Well, yeah.
1:16:49
You kind of like, you know, you kind of like, you you know, like any like anything, it's like some things you might be running at a loss with.
1:16:57
And there's a you know, not to be specific about the job, but there's a truism in the industry that 80% of books lose money.
1:17:01
You're always trying to look at things in the round.
1:17:03
With ebooks, you can do some great things in terms of offering special deals in order to incentivize readers to discover an author's work.
1:17:12
So, I think anyone who spends a lot of time on ebook platforms will see some of those deals or you know, if you use BookBub, things like that, you you'll see you'll see special deals.
1:17:24
>> Well, to your point about the power law in the industry, I was looking at the Department of Justice lawsuit against the Penguin Simon & Schuster merger, and I thought these stats were interesting.
1:17:39
So, more than 85% of authors never earn royalties beyond their advance, and to your point about the power law, books with advances of 250,000 or more comprise only 2% of all acquisitions, but account for 70% of all advance spending.
1:17:55
So, basically, you just have a small number of books that get the majority of the advances and the profit for the companies, and that's just how the publishing industry works.
1:18:07
>> Uh yeah, I mean, I mean, you're kind of people from outside the industry come in and say, "Oh, why do you have advances?"
1:18:14
Um because actually, if you just did royalties, you could you know, you could have a different sort of system.
1:18:19
Obviously, the market You know, it's it's a competitive market, and advances are the way I guess it's the same as the music business or the TV business or whatever.
1:18:26
Um but yeah, there is definitely um I would say a sort of feast, you know, feast or famine element to it.
1:18:36
>> Only 35 out of 100 books turn a profit.
1:18:39
The top 4% of profitable books generate 60% of profitability. So, four for 60.
1:18:47
As the Penguin Random House CEO put it, publishers are like angel investors.
1:18:51
Then Markus Dohle, CEO of Penguin Random House, said, "We invest every year in thousands of ideas and dreams, and only a few make it to the top."
1:18:59
>> Yeah, what what I would say, some of the nicest bits in my career, people often assume oh, it's the books that have the highest advances that always do well, and that is not the case.
1:19:10
Some of the nicest bits in my career have been where there's a book, you know, small advance, an editor very passionate about it, um and it's got, you know, take a book like Where the Crawdads Sing.
1:19:20
Yeah, you know, we so we published that in the UK, Penguin Random House published it here.
1:19:25
Wasn't a huge was not a huge deal at all, but what you know, one of the best-selling books of the last 20 years.
1:19:31
You know, there there's a lot of books, I would say, uh that are bought at, you know, sort of all different advance levels, sometimes low advance levels that then go on to massively smash all records.
1:19:42
So, I would say again to your point about, you know, authors or whatever, as an author, you should not ex- you should I mean, you can't really ex- you you could have no never know what to expect, but just because a publisher hasn't paid a ton of money for you or does not mean your book might not be an enormous bestseller. >> Last question. I'm an author.
1:20:01
I'm thinking about what publisher to work with.
1:20:02
Why should I work with Hachette?
1:20:05
>> Well, we are the most we have the most different sorts of lines of any of the large publishers out there.
1:20:13
So, we go from incredibly specialist publishing, like we've got the world's big- Jessica Kingsley, which is the world's biggest specialist publishing for autism, um and gender diversity as well, and Chinese medicine. So, we've got that.
1:20:29
And we publish Michael Connelly and James Patterson.
1:20:33
And you know, you kind of huge authors.
1:20:36
Helen Hill the brand which publish mission the UK.
1:20:38
Yeah, so different of the UK US but like some we we have a vast spectrum I would say of different sorts of publishing.
1:20:46
And I like to think as well everyone's biased. I'm massively biased.
1:20:50
I like to think we have a range of business models, a range of different approaches as well. >> What do you mean?
1:20:55
>> So we've got as I said we've got this imprint Bookouture where any author that can look it up online.
1:21:00
As I say, they are one of the few imprints that accept uh mainly and almost their authors are unagented.
1:21:09
And there's a you you can submit things uh or everything will get read, everything will get assessed.
1:21:14
Uh their model is different in that they uh offer a much higher ebook royalty than the industry standard.
1:21:23
Um I say it's a no advance all royalty deal.
1:21:28
So but because they don't not paying money on advances their royalties could be higher.
1:21:35
So for a writer it's all about betting on yourself I guess.
1:21:36
That that that if you trust them and you trust yourself to reach a large readership, you will receive a bigger slice of the pie than you than you would otherwise.
1:21:46
Um so I think it's 45% um net receipts royalties.
1:21:49
So we've got that business model.
1:21:53
Um and then obviously we've got the sort of absolute kind of traditional business model of we're competing with other large publishers. It's etc.
1:22:00
And then we've got the very specialist bits of publishing.
1:22:04
Uh so I would say it's there's something for everyone there.
1:22:07
And like whatever sort of writer you are, whatever sort of field uh you're operating in, you will find um an imprint or an editor who is really great in that area who can find a market for your work.
1:22:20
I would obviously say as well we do it you know, I feel we do a great job with our marketing, our publicity, our covers, our distribution, all of that.
1:22:28
Um but, to be fair, a lot of our competitors do as well.
1:22:33
Um I think maybe another thing I would say is we are more and more sort of global company.
1:22:40
So, I'm across the US and UK.
1:22:40
So, I'm CEO of US and UK.
1:22:42
We're coming together a bit more.
1:22:44
If you want where you don't have to that that that you know, we have some authors we publish in one territory and not the other. That's very common.
1:22:53
But, increasingly, we're doing more and more sort of global deals.
1:22:54
We're working more with our cousins in France, in Spain.
1:22:59
Um so, I'd say we're probably you know, maybe the most global of the publishers as well in terms of reaching reaching a kind of global readership.
1:23:11
Uh and I would say we're pretty innovative on the digital front as well.
1:23:16
Uh there's obviously you know, we're obviously learning new things. We're not perfect.
1:23:19
Um but, I think that's a that would be a strong reason to come to us as well. >> There we go.
1:23:25
David Shelley, thank you very much. >> Thank you. It's been a pleasure. Thank you so much.