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[Music] Let me [Music] let me take you. [Music] Team Deathmatch. >> Delta team engage. >> You're watching TVPN.
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>> Today is Tuesday, September 16th, 2025.
3:06
We are live from the TVPN Ultradome, the temple of technology, the fortress of finance, the capital of capital.
3:10
Good morning to everyone who's watching. We see you. We appreciate you.
3:15
Welcome to the Tuesday stream.
3:19
We have a ton of news to go through. First up, ramp. com. Time is money. Save both. Easy to use.
3:25
Corporate cards, bill payments, accounting, and a whole lot more all in one place.
3:28
Uh second, we made it to the print edition of the Wall Street Journal.
3:33
We made it to the print edition.
3:34
This is really, really huge.
3:34
If you're not familiar, uh not every article that goes out on wsj.
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com makes it to the print edition.
3:40
You got to pass the second hurdle, the second test.
3:45
Uh, you got to be newsworthy.
3:47
Thank you to everyone who clicked on the link. That probably helped. I don't know. Signal.
3:52
>> I mean, we got a lot of views on the screenshots that we shared, which was crazy.
3:55
Um, >> people were excited about Dylan joining.
3:58
>> Yeah, people were excited. It's a It's a fun time.
4:00
It's a big It's a big moment, and we're happy to uh make it into the journal since uh the journal has very much in in the same way as X, it's the backbone of the show.
4:08
as much as the timeline is the backbone.
4:11
>> The timeline might be the femur of the show, but uh the Wall Street Journal is the is the backbone and >> and our sponsors are the are the tibias of of the show.
4:20
Uh anyway, we we made it to the actual print edition of the Wall Street Journal.
4:26
This is really really big.
4:27
Um we're very happy about this and >> been waiting for this moment since we started the show.
4:31
Another bit of Wall Street Journal lore you might not be familiar with, the headline that they use online is often different than what they print in the paper because it's a slightly different audience.
4:43
>> Liked the >> I like the print edition.
4:44
So >> in uh so on in the online version they said this podcast is 11 months old.
4:49
It just hired a president to manage ad revenue. Uh fact check true.
4:54
Um, but uh then in the print edition they needed to kind of tighten it up.
5:00
They didn't have as much ink to work with.
5:02
So they shortened it to Young Tech Podcast hires president which I like a lot.
5:09
>> I think they could have shortened it even more to just young tech. Young technology.
5:14
>> Yeah, young technology.
5:14
So So we've been very very happy with this.
5:16
Anyway, you can go check it out if you're if you're interested.
5:20
And uh people have been uh really really supportive of the show.
5:23
Thank you uh to everyone in the chat.
5:25
Thank you to everyone who's been uh engaging with Post on X.
5:27
Uh, of course, tomorrow we are we are uh interviewing Mark Zuckerberg live and who else are we connect?
5:34
We're interviewing Alexander Wang. >> There we go.
5:37
>> I've interviewed him twice. He's a phenomenon.
5:39
He is uh probably the greatest entrepreneur of generation Z and he is the chief AI officer.
5:46
>> This photo doesn't get shared around that much, but it's surprising because he looks so good. >> He looks fantastic. He looks fantastic.
5:54
Uh he's been lifting the weights and training the weights. That's right. He's all over the place. It's great.
5:58
Uh so we're very excited to to uh sit down with Alexander Wang tomorrow.
6:03
>> He really put New Mexico tech on the map. >> Yes. Yes.
6:06
Uh not much going on there uh before until he showed up.
6:09
Uh but he has been on a generational run and is continuing to build a whole team at Meta as their chief AI officer.
6:17
We're going to have him break down the structure of the team, how he's thinking about hiring folks.
6:24
Obviously, he's been on a talent acquisition spree.
6:26
He got something like 20 to 30% of the medicine list together in one room and said, "Start cooking."
6:33
Uh, also, uh, Kryptox has been uh has been posting about us.
6:36
I have a printed post, a little throwback to Krypto.
6:39
Uh, Krypto says, >> "Never stop printing."
6:43
>> Krypto says, "The rise of TBPN has to be studied." They How did it happen?
6:46
They were printing my posts and now they're hosting the Zuckerberg. Not Zuckerberg.
6:55
Not the Zuck the Zuckerberg.
6:55
Uh well uh it's uh >> little Laura.
6:59
We still love to print so much though.
7:01
We've we've been running through uh >> we've been pushing printer technology to its limits.
7:07
uh familiarity with the uh Huelet Packard or Brother uh printing system is a prerequisite for employment at TBPN incorporated.
7:17
Um >> yeah, underrated that we run we ran the show on Brother Printers.
7:24
>> Brother Printers did they they they took us a long way.
7:28
>> The first the first 10,000 subscribers were probably on built on the back of the Brother printer. Yeah.
7:34
>> Uh which served >> a real brand. We're not joking. This is a real brand.
7:37
It's called Brother Printers and they're pretty reliable that we we got the black and white version so it' print faster and >> they have a great domain.
7:45
>> Yeah, some folks in the chat say bring printing back.
7:46
We're going to uh there was a we got to a point where we had so many posts that were in, you know, color and black and white and like this is a lot of ink.
7:56
Uh, and we would hit print and it would take like 25 minutes to actually print the full run of show and then we'd want to look things up and we want to play videos.
8:06
And so I think there's a world for printing posts.
8:08
We want some printed posts.
8:11
We want to keep the the the lowfi vibes, but then also every once in a while it makes sense to pull up a video for everyone or pull up some audio and play it.
8:20
And of course share it all and reream one live stream 30 plus destinations multiream.
8:25
reach your audience wherever they are.
8:27
If you're streaming, got to get on reream.
8:30
Um anyway, tomorrow, obviously, everyone has seen the leaks at this point.
8:32
Uh Meta's announcing some new glasses.
8:36
We're going to be hands-on with them, take you through reactions to the keynote, and then interview a bunch of folks from Meta's leadership team, which we've shared.
8:44
We shared Bos, we shared Zuck, we shared Alex Wang, of course.
8:46
Uh but I wanted to get a state of the union on what's actually going on in the VR AR market.
8:55
Uh, I've tried the Apple Vision Pro.
8:58
One of our first shows was talking about the Apple Vision Pro.
9:00
Um, I had it for two weeks.
9:02
I watched Citizen Cane in it.
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I experienced some of the demos.
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Wasn't able to really stick with it and so wound up returning it.
9:10
>> At any point did you say this is the future. This this is it. >> Uh, is here.
9:17
>> There were pieces of the future that I liked.
9:20
I like the external battery pack >> to some of the other people that came out and said this is it and then retracted it.
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Like >> I remember because we had I don't think we'd started the show yet, but you called me and you were like do I need to get one of these things?
9:32
Like my timeline is just flooded with like insane like the future is here like you're missing the boat.
9:39
It was like FOMO around Apple Vision Pro for a couple weeks and then it sort of died off.
9:45
Um but but I thought that there were a few things that they did really well.
9:48
The screen was fantastic.
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It really was a step above anything else in the category.
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And the and the external battery pack was smart.
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Of course, the overall headset was still really heavy. And I liked it.
10:03
Even though I I liked Oculus for gaming.
10:06
I played all of Robo Recall, the shooting game.
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I have a funny story about this, too.
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Uh did I ever tell you about the first time I went uh ski shooting with shotguns? >> No.
10:15
So, I go to my friend's ranch in California, avocado farmer.
10:19
>> That's actually impressive because eventually we're going to run out of stories that >> I know. Yeah. Yeah.
10:22
You'd think I'd run out of them by now, but uh so I I go to the ranch uh my buddy's ranch and >> at some point we have to explain this. >> Yeah. Yeah.
10:32
We will be taking you through uh the >> simple we made a simple >> we cracked the code on Open AI by the way.
10:40
>> Get a wide angle, please.
10:41
>> So, we will we will be sharing the the full breakdown.
10:44
Tyler will be breaking it down for us.
10:46
>> It's quite simple if you actually uh just, you know, look at all the the >> and and uh and we will be calling uh we will Thank you for the zooming.
10:54
We will be calling uh Dylan Field to help us uh create a red string mod for Fig Jam.
10:58
Of course, if you want to uh take this level of design to a a little bit more professional level, head over to figma. com.
11:07
Think bigger, build faster.
11:08
Figma helps design and development teams build great products together.
11:10
So anyway, I was going out to my buddy's ranch and as one of the activities on the ranch, they had ski shooting.
11:15
So shotguns, uh, the overunder, two shells, and I'd ne this was the first time I'd ever shot a shotgun.
11:21
Um, never really shot a gun.
11:24
And, uh, and they were playing this game where it's kind of like knockout and everyone goes and if you miss one, you lose, but if you if you if you miss and then someone else hits it, they get you out.
11:34
And it's a competition and the best shooter wins.
11:37
And I don't know if there was a prize, but um I'd never shot, completely new, but I'd been playing like 4 hours a day of virtual reality shooting in Robo Recall.
11:48
There's a fantastic game.
11:49
>> How old were you at this time?
11:51
>> Oh, this was like 25 years old, 26 or something. I don't know. I I wasn't I was a man. I was an adult. Okay. Um I wasn't kid.
11:57
Um uh >> four hours a day of Robo Recall, >> something like that. Yeah. I don't know. Maybe exactly.
12:03
>> Well, no, you can still put in 996 and play Robo Recall and >> Oh, yeah.
12:07
Yeah, we as long as you eat while you're playing robo. We know this. Yes.
12:10
And then and then so >> um but I uh so I I believe I had one of the highest scores in the world at the time.
12:18
I was going up against like a friend of mine who was like actually a developer at Meta and and we were like setting different scores and there were like little tricks that you could do to get better scores.
12:27
But basically the whole conceit of the game is that uh there's a whole bunch of robots that are like running at you and you have to like shoot them.
12:32
So, so you're I'm practicing in virtual reality and I'm shooting all these robots and I get out to the real world and I'm phenomenal and I win and I beat everyone in this shotgun shooting competition and it actually transferred sim racing. >> It was sim racing.
12:45
It was it transferred recall. It transferred. It was fantastic.
12:50
It was it it was like a remarkable moment and I think that uh Quest even though some of the hype has died down, everything's moved over to AI.
12:58
Um, there's still a massive opportunity to win gaming.
13:01
There's also a massive opportunity, I think, to win just replacement for your TV.
13:05
We were talking about this, like the TV is maybe maybe goated, maybe going to be around forever.
13:10
But I I when I watched in in Apple Vision Pro, I was like, "This is cool.
13:16
I I could see doing this if it was lighter and cheaper and and and a little bit cooler."
13:21
And it also >> we can we can wait to talk about the implications of Meta's new releases until tomorrow because um there's there's been some leaks. >> Yep.
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>> Uh but we've also been able to demo the products a couple times now.
13:35
>> Uh and can't share can't share reactions is the XRE one pro which is a augmented reality. I don't even know.
13:46
>> I never heard of this until this morning you told me about this.
13:47
So, so this has been pumped very heavily online.
13:49
Uh, they do a lot of sponsored content.
13:52
They do a lot of ads and it's a it's an augmented reality glasses. We got them.
14:00
They're on Tyler's face over there. He's looking What?
14:02
Give us a little review, Jordy.
14:05
How do you think the the styles the style looks?
14:08
>> Uh, I mean I Tyler's just a cool dude. He looks pretty cool.
14:11
Hard to >> He looks He just has a pair of sunglasses on.
14:14
>> You do You do look kind of like a like an old man. Yeah.
14:18
>> Kind of old man coded.
14:19
>> The um they're very far away from my face.
14:22
Like the lens it feels very like offset. >> Yeah, it is.
14:25
It is a little bit farther.
14:27
So, uh describe what you're seeing. >> Yeah.
14:30
So, um it's it feels basically like I'm wearing sunglasses.
14:32
Um I don't know if you'll be able to see if I turn them around, but um >> there's like the main lens, which you can see from like looking at me, and then on the inside there's like a smaller lens that doesn't cover the entire thing.
14:44
>> So, I'm see I'm looking through that.
14:46
Um, so my the field of view of the actual like screen area is is is not actually that big.
14:52
>> Um, but it's basically just like I'm wearing like pretty dark sunglasses. Yeah.
14:56
>> And then um >> I can just like see I I have like a screen pulled up.
14:59
It's just mirroring from my laptop right now. >> Okay. >> So it's over here. >> So yeah.
15:03
So basically if you unplug these, there's no battery on board that I can tell. You have to plug it.
15:08
You have to plug in the the end of the the end of the what's the arm on the on the sunglass arm? I don't know. The side little bar.
15:18
You plug a USBC cable into that and then you plug that into your phone and it mirrors your phone or he's plugged into his laptop.
15:24
Is it a second screen or it's mirroring?
15:27
>> Uh right now it's like extended so screen. >> Okay.
15:30
Oh, because you have two screens. Well, there we go. >> Yeah. >> Yeah.
15:33
You don't need to rub it in.
15:33
I mean, >> so that's that's pretty that's pretty >> So how much can you see?
15:37
Can you see how many fingers I'm holding up? >> Yeah. three.
15:40
I mean, I can see pretty well. You can see pretty well.
15:42
There's three um like levels of darkness.
15:45
>> So, I'm on the lightest one right now. It's still pretty dark.
15:47
Like, it's basically like I'm wearing dark sunglasses.
15:50
>> I think I had it on the on the darkest setting and I was using it at night last night and I couldn't see through in the >> Yeah, in the chat says >> looks like he belongs in the Blues Brothers.
15:59
>> I think it I think it's a pretty good look.
16:00
Uh I watched a full YouTube video on it about 50 minutes last night and it truly was full HD.
16:06
Like I I was not seeing pixels.
16:08
I thought I thought the visual resolution was quite high.
16:10
What's your What's your review?
16:14
>> I just turned on like the darkest setting and I cannot see you guys at all.
16:17
>> I can see um the lights we have. >> Okay, that's it.
16:20
>> Like very faintly, but I can't see you guys at all.
16:22
>> So, it's really Oh, it's actually changing the the darkness of the glasses, too. That's pretty cool.
16:25
I can I can see the change when you change those. That's pretty cool. Yeah. Wow. There we go. Yeah, it goes dark.
16:31
I don't know if you'll be able to see that on the video, but uh I can certainly see it from here.
16:35
Um anyway, uh so what have you what do you think about the user experience of having the screen on your face have to connect to the screen in front of you?
16:46
>> I don't think it's that crazy.
16:46
I always thought that like I I want a very concrete uh like first like killer app.
16:52
And so for the iPhone, you know, I was debating this with Mark Andre.
16:58
Um I think the killer app for the iPhone was just the phone.
17:03
And then yeah, it had some problems later, but uh most people bought it just to be able to make phone calls.
17:09
>> Chat's asking for a wrist check. That's a Seikko, right? >> Yeah. Seiko SKX. There we go. I'm really a hitter. Yeah.
17:15
>> Oh, you're getting there.
17:15
>> It's a It's a college hitter.
17:17
>> It's a college hitter.
17:17
>> It's a tasteful It's a tasteful choice.
17:19
>> And so, so I thought that there could be a future where uh this is a $650 product.
17:25
It's in the range of an external monitor.
17:27
And so I think that maybe it's not going to be today, but if you have a college student who has a laptop and they want a second monitor and they're judging between these glasses that are portable they can bring to the library if they're going there and have a nice big second monitor or a physical second monitor from Apple or Samsung or anyone else.
17:50
They might be able to compete on that even if you just have to plug it in.
17:54
Um, but what do you think Tyler? How close are you?
17:56
What what how how cheap how much cheaper than an than a true external monitor would these have to be for you to choose this over an external monitor?
18:07
>> I think they'd have to be a lot cheaper than $750. They're not close. >> Yeah.
18:11
They're also like I don't think I would wear these >> not sitting down like if I was moving around. >> Yep.
18:16
>> They're like a little too clunky.
18:16
Um >> when you have it So there's like two modes.
18:21
You can have it on like the world tracking or just like face tracking where it moves with your face. >> Yep.
18:25
Um, and it's like pretty clunky.
18:28
Um, so it's like a little bit I I could see someone getting like motion sick in VR.
18:33
I don't really get motion sick ever, but like my dad does a lot, so I could see him like not using this.
18:38
>> Uh, comp the visual fidelity to the um to the Quest 3S that you tested.
18:46
>> Um, I would say it's very close. Um, >> it's close.
18:51
>> Yeah, it's So it's definitely worse than the Apple Vision Pro.
18:53
Like I can still see kind of like I can like >> do essentially like pixel peing. >> Yeah.
19:00
>> Um and if I if I move my head like this, it gets blurry. >> Yeah.
19:04
>> But overall like I could I mean you know >> the field of view is a little narrow.
19:07
Like it's pretty easy to cut off the edges if you move your head.
19:10
>> It's a little narrow but like text is totally readable.
19:11
like you could easily read or um >> so far I'm on the I'm on the train of if I'm if I if I was on a plane and I was leaning back I would watch a movie on this over just holding my phone like this and watching it there.
19:25
But outside of that there aren't that many occasions that I would select this.
19:32
And even though it is AR and it is pass through, it's still >> I would just say I would just say this seems much worse than having your laptop on the tray table. >> Oh yeah. Yeah.
19:45
It's >> it's like when are you on a plane and you don't have your laptop? Yeah.
19:48
Would you really use this?
19:50
So I I I I give these uh uh >> What's your review?
19:56
>> Uh >> two thumbs down. >> Two thumbs down.
19:57
That's my official review. >> Brutal. What about you?
20:00
I I think it's pretty cool.
20:02
I've never used AR glasses before.
20:04
I've only ever used VR that has pass through.
20:06
And I mean, it's like, you know, infinitely better because in passrough, you can't really like you can obviously walk around. Yeah.
20:12
>> But it's like you it's a little jarring still.
20:14
You have to walk a little slowly.
20:15
>> Like with this, you can actually use your laptop.
20:17
You can you can move your your hands around and and it doesn't it's real time because it's just actually you're seeing the real light rays instead of having them >> reproducted.
20:25
I would say I would say one thumbs up. >> One thumbs up. >> One thumb up. >> One thumb up. One thumb down.
20:31
>> Are you being honest with us, Tyler?
20:33
>> Are you being too nice?
20:34
>> No, I think this is really cool. Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Okay. >> I mean, really cool.
20:36
Really cool doesn't mean that you're going to use it. >> It's a cool demo. I I would not buy these. >> Okay.
20:41
One thumb up on the demo.
20:43
>> I would not buy these for $700.
20:43
I would buy them for like 150 bucks, maybe.
20:48
>> The question the the the the age-old question here is we're always trying to get to a churn rate.
20:55
>> Goldman in the chat says, "Ripping analog bogeies.
20:57
Glad the youth are keeping it going.
21:00
I don't think he I think he missed the part where they're like, >> "Oh, >> there's cigarettes."
21:06
Oh, there's cigarettes in his pocket. >> Oh.
21:08
Oh, that I thought he was pulling the the sunglasses. >> No, no, no.
21:13
>> Tyler's got some heaters in the pocket.
21:15
>> Yansancy here saying, "Wish I had a third thumb to give it three thumbs down."
21:20
But so, uh, let's assume that they're free.
21:24
Let's assume that you that that that you have won them in a TVPN uh gap semester challenge.
21:30
>> You're not even you're not you're not using these.
21:33
>> Do you think you'll be a DAOU in a month >> because we've tried to make you a DAOU of Cluey. We failed.
21:38
We tried to make you a DAU of the Quest 3S. We failed. >> I on the Quest. I actually have used it. >> Oh, you did?
21:44
I >> I've used it in the past month.
21:45
I've used it maybe like three times. >> Okay.
21:48
What What did you use it for?
21:49
>> Uh I was playing I think I was playing Call of Duty. Okay.
21:52
Back in the back in the trenches. The new Call of Duty.
21:54
The new Call of Duty is dropping soon. >> Maybe.
21:58
>> Uh I don't know which one it was.
21:58
Black Ops 6 or something. >> Oh well.
22:02
>> Um I would I mean Call of Duty needs to do the same thing >> as Apple at this point in Black Ops 2025. >> They really should.
22:14
>> There actually was Modern Warfare 2020.
22:16
I think >> Yeah, they did that. >> Yeah.
22:18
Well, no, it was because they they reset the whole counter.
22:21
So, it it was Modern Warfare 1 2 3 4 and then they just were like, "Let's start over.
22:26
Let's do Modern Warfare again."
22:28
And so, anytime that you would you would need to confuse the old Modern Warfare and the new Modern Warfare, people would be like, "Modern Warfare, but the 2020 edition."
22:36
It wasn't Modern Warfare.
22:38
>> Also, Dan Ratliff in the chat has a good idea.
22:40
He says, "Get the chat ripping an inch from Tyler's face." >> Oo, I like that. Yeah. Can you pull up chat?
22:46
plug the chat into you can just see the chat, right?
22:50
>> So, I'm looking at myself right now and it it they >> they're really dark.
22:53
It looks like I'm like blind. >> Yeah, it does.
22:56
Well, it I I mean that's mostly because you're indoors.
22:58
Like if you were if we were outside sunny beach or something, I feel like you would look a lot more >> to be clear that is incredibly sub like that's not what you want.
23:08
You want glasses that look like normal glasses. >> Yes. Yes. Yes. I I agree.
23:12
And and so like the Meta Ray-B bands, just the the the current ones that are already out, if someone is sitting at their office with those and they have them in in their clear frames, you would just be like it's as weird as having headphones in.
23:27
Like it's just like, oh yeah, they they're wearing glasses. Like >> Yeah.
23:30
You can immediately clock these as like something is going on with >> Totally.
23:34
Wire coming out of your coming down your your chest.
23:37
Really uh is a nice accent.
23:39
You might have to thread that through the tie or something.
23:43
You're like, "Yeah, something something's going on here.
23:44
This >> you look like an intelligence asset."
23:49
You know, you're just like, "Oh, >> if you're in an SF party and a, you know, >> and someone's wearing these >> pulls out this." Yeah, that's great.
23:56
Anyway, Vanta, automate compliance, manage risk, prove trust continuously.
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Vantage trust management platform takes the manual work out of your security and compliance process and replaces it with continuous automation whether you're pursuing your first framework or managing a complex program.
24:06
Okay, the current thing, uh, Elon, he posted, "Daddy is very much home.
24:10
He's burning the midnight oil with Optimus Engineering on Friday night, then redeye overnight to Austin, arriving at 5:00 a. m.
24:18
, wake up to have lunch with my kids, and then spend all day Saturday afternoon in deep technical reviews for Tesla's AI 5 chip design.
24:23
Then he flies to Colossus 2 on Monday, walks the whole data center floor, reviews transformer and power production.
24:30
Excellent progress there," he says.
24:31
uh departs midnight, then up to 12 hours of back-to-back meetings across all Tesla departments, but particular focus on AI autopilot, Optimus production plans, and vehicle production/dely. 16,000 likes. He is back in it. He's in wartime mode.
24:48
>> It's a No, it's great to see like clearly you add politics into his current responsibilities and it's too much. Like it's just too much.
24:57
So, it's great to see that he's out of that focused on what he does best.
25:00
focused on what he does best. uh >> like the context switching between between SpaceX and Tesla always seemed like wow how does he do SpaceX and Tesla but like at the end of the day you are talking to an engineer in one place and then an engineer in the other place and it's it's fundamentally the same
25:16
conversation like how can we design the parts get them made put them together and then do the thing with the parts that at least it's that instead of politics is like completely different >> it's crazy to to be an entrepreneur >> and think to yourself I got to focus more but then still have like six companies. >> It is crazy. >> It is crazy.
25:34
>> It's like I have to work harder and I have to focus more. Yep.
25:37
>> And normally if you're running one company, you can say like, "All right, we're going to like dep prioritize this product, like shut this down.
25:42
We're not going to do that acquisition. Do this or that."
25:46
>> But, uh, he doesn't have that luxury.
25:46
He just has to >> This was the This was the odd take.
25:48
Uh, daddy is very much home.
25:51
You got a lot of houses, brother. You got a lot of houses.
25:55
Uh but at the same time, House Elon, as I'm calling it, uh does does have some synergies between it and a lot more now that you take politics out of the mix like you mentioned.
26:05
So, um I was thinking and I don't know if I want to dox them, but uh I was visiting two friends of mine who run a design consultancy together, pulled into their Los Angeles office space, which they had designed from the ground up.
26:16
These guys are super into design.
26:18
They have custom furniture, custom tables, everything is custom.
26:22
and I noticed they had two identical Tesla Model Y's parked in front of the building.
26:27
And I was like, that's kind of a funny choice for guys who pride themselves on finding like unique and creative design ideas all day long.
26:35
Like everything they do is >> consider considered unique.
26:38
I would have expected some bespoke car like the bespoke office building.
26:42
And when I talked to them, they had a good they had a good rationale behind their decision.
26:49
He said, "What true luxuries are left in the automotive world?
26:52
It's just self-driving and nothing comes close to a Tesla." That was their take.
26:58
You can disagree, but for a lot of people, >> we've had self-driving.
27:03
It's called having a driver.
27:06
>> That's the true >> That's the true That's the last clearly if if you could make the argument that that is the final. >> Yes.
27:14
>> Because we drove with them to dinner and both cars.
27:16
Yeah, I wasn't in there, but yeah, you were.
27:19
>> I drove with them to dinner and both cars made an extremely illegal left turn. >> Oh.
27:24
Oh, so so a human driver would never do anything illegal in a car.
27:28
>> I would fire a human driver that made that turn. >> Oh, okay.
27:30
That >> it was it was agreed. >> It was agreed.
27:34
>> But of course, I agree.
27:34
I agree with the point broadly. >> Yes.
27:37
Uh sure, maybe it's not superhuman level.
27:40
Maybe it's not the best self-driving better than an actual professional driver, but it's on the path and it's clearly a notch above the rest of the OEMs.
27:50
And so Tesla's always been a bit of a wild ride.
27:53
Company wasn't founded by Elon Musk.
27:54
He sort of refounded the business.
27:56
He joined the company 7 months after two other co-founders started the initial corpor incorporation.
28:01
Uh it's been a wild ride in the public markets.
28:04
There's a barrage of skepticism the whole time, pressure from short sellers.
28:07
The stock's never traded like a traditional car maker, but it's also never operated like one.
28:11
So, on November 6th, Tesla shareholders in just what, two months or so.
28:16
Uh Tesla shareholders will vote on a very non-traditional pay package.
28:21
It's $1 trillion for Elon.
28:23
Uh and Elon's already restating his commitment to the company with this post. Daddy is very much home.
28:31
Um he wrote on X this morning.
28:31
Uh, I was debating whether or not the post was ghostritten.
28:36
And where do you sit on it, Jordy? You've read the post.
28:38
Do you think this was written by Elon?
28:43
>> The the original one we created, >> the daddy, not the Tesla.
28:45
So, the Tesla secret plan V4 that felt like it was not written by Elon.
28:51
It wasn't really in Elon's voice from what I know about him.
28:55
Uh, it seemed like it was sort of written by a team or a committee or there were like multiple people at the table.
28:59
There were a lot of M dashes.
28:59
So maybe there's like a chachd pass or a grock pass at some point, an LLM pass on top of it, the ideas >> just talking into his phone. >> Sure.
29:08
>> And then it instantiated it into a into a multi- paragraph essay.
29:10
Um, but this this post I am burning the midnight oil with Optimus Engineering on Friday night, then redeye overnight to Austin, arriving at 5 a. m.
29:19
Does this feel like Elon's voice to you?
29:23
>> I mean, his voice to me is reposting on on the timeline.
29:26
Reposting a crying emoji. Wow. >> So true. Yeah. I I don't know.
29:32
I thought this this did feel like him.
29:35
It felt like he just fired it off. But I don't know.
29:38
There's people debating it. I don't know.
29:40
I think the more interesting thing is just like just like does this reflect rational prioritization at Tesla generally and so >> up 20% in the last >> Yeah.
29:50
And so he's prioritizing Optimus, which Optimus feels like this sci-fi project that's far off.
29:56
It feels like the demos that we've seen have been very teaoperated.
30:00
It's not there aren't these crazy demos.
30:03
It's certainly not shipping.
30:04
Um, but if you just think about like what is technically possible right now and we've seen these videos out of China with companies like Unitry, it doesn't seem that far off, right?
30:15
Like even if even if you assume that like he hasn't Tesla hasn't done any like quantum leap done something that no one else can do just catching up to unitry with great execution and engineering should be possible right like they already make tons and tons of
30:31
cars it's a somewhat similar pro project um and there's also certainly investor demand for an American humanoid robot play uh today figure robotics raised a billion dollars at a 39 billion post money valuation When was that announced around this? Well, so
30:48
Well, so >> months ago, six months ago, >> it felt like something that was designed to generate interest. >> Sure.
30:56
>> And there were screenshots at the time.
30:58
I was like I I was pretty blown away because >> because uh that round was being what it was rumored to be getting done at was large greater than the market cap of Ford Motor Company.
31:08
>> Um >> where's Ford today?
31:10
>> Uh Ford is at 45 billion today.
31:10
And so I I was I I saw >> take age like milk Jordan. >> Yeah.
31:16
I I said to John, I said, "You might not like this, John.
31:18
This might trigger you, but Brett Adcock has created more enterprise value than Henry Ford."
31:25
>> Uh that actually proved to be true.
31:27
Henry Ford as of current marks has generated about a billion dollars more. >> Okay. Okay.
31:32
>> Um yeah, >> we don't need to get into revenue or really try to get too into the math.
31:36
>> Yeah, let's skip all that.
31:36
Um, >> but yeah, the the question >> I mean my read on this is just like is this is like figure is nowhere near as like in the zeitgeist as Tesla and there are clearly investors who want to bet on humanoid robots in America.
31:49
They can't even buy unitary stock.
31:51
I don't know how you would.
31:53
Um, and so if you just if you just believe that robots are going to be a thing like investing in Tesla doesn't seem like that crazy of an idea, right?
32:03
Um, but uh I mean he's not just focused on that.
32:05
He's also focused on the next Tesla chip design called >> One thing too, Uni Tree uh is planning their IPO around the $7 billion mark. >> Sure. Oh, that's low. Wow, that's low.
32:18
Where are they in Hong Kong?
32:18
Maybe >> it's going to be the Hong Kong stock exchange.
32:22
>> I wonder what it'll do.
32:22
What it'll do >> and uh given that they are >> They're shipping a lot of those robots.
32:28
>> They're selling a lot of pups.
32:29
>> They're selling a lot of Oh, yeah. They're selling pups. Robo pups.
32:32
>> Anyway, uh worth a big deal.
32:32
I want I I I think a Tesla Robo Pup would crush. >> That would be good. >> I would.
32:41
>> What would you use it for, though?
32:41
Would you not churn for that?
32:43
>> Just a Well, so so I pitched you on an office dog and you said that's insane.
32:49
>> Uh and and uh I thought about it.
32:51
>> Tragedy of the common situation.
32:53
>> Um but a but a Tesla pup >> that um that Elon would just be able to zoom into at any time and kind of bark at us if he had announcements.
33:01
I would I would be pretty interested in that.
33:03
What about a Tesla puffer fish? A turbo puffer fish. >> A turbo puffer. >> Search every bite.
33:10
Serverless vector and full text search build from first principles and object storage.
33:14
Fast, 10x cheaper, and extremely scalable.
33:18
>> Check out Turbo Puffer.
33:18
Um, he's also prioritizing AI5, the new chip.
33:25
He's partnering with Samsung on that. Makes sense.
33:26
You need edge computing in a self-driving context.
33:28
You can't do all the inference in a data center.
33:31
center. uh Colossus you can do inference in the data center you're probably training a big model uh regardless of what XAI is doing with Grock uh train having a bunch of being GPU rich seems valuable to Tesla right and and you know there's rumors that maybe those
33:47
companies merge at some point um but uh the plan overall like how he's actually spending his time it seems in line with the opportunity in front of Tesla doesn't seem like wildly wildly like >> he's managed to almost 2x the stock to since April. >> He certainly like got got the flow back
34:03
>> He certainly like got got the flow back >> and I remember I I I distinctly remember midcurving it around April thinking just looking at the >> looking at Tesla earnings, look at them losing market share globally, look at the the quarters that they had had um just in the core business of selling cars. Yep.
34:25
>> And it was just looking really really really abysmal. >> Cybertruck was rough.
34:28
The Roadster 2 was delayed.
34:31
They're just >> Model 3 is not selling well.
34:32
None of the cars have been re >> and then there was all this political stuff where what were conservatives gonna pick up and start buying Teslas in >> Well, no, you think about it.
34:41
He lost the left >> and then he was losing the right by fighting with with Trump.
34:47
>> So, who's who's the base? >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
34:49
It was it was like losses on both sides.
34:50
But um I I think that I think that the car buyer has a shorter memory for these things and and will >> when you're selling when you're leasing cars for $2.
35:01
99 less than an Equinox >> and it and like it does perform uh well on all the benchmarks essentially self-driving >> compared to any other car in that price range. >> Yep. Totally.
35:14
Um, and so the the bare case here for for Elon bringing it back and returning home is that he has multiple homes.
35:23
SpaceX, Neurolink, Boring Company, X, XAI.
35:25
Uh, it can't be easy to juggle everything, but at least he's been able to pull back time spent in DC. >> No, I said yeah.
35:32
Um, and it seems like there are new plans in the works to consolidate House Elon down to fewer entities so it's easier to manage.
35:39
Uh overall, his current Tesla plan outlined in this post is a lot clearer to me than the Tesla secret plan V4 uh that felt written by a committee or even worse an LLM.
35:48
Uh even if you seeing even if you're seeing signs of being stretched too thin, it's very hard to root against someone who's already built such a large automotive company in America and is taking a serious run at a self-driving network in a humanoid robot robotics play. There's lots of froth.
36:02
Uh but I like Elon being home at Tesla and focused on making science fiction reality.
36:09
So that's my take on on Elon's latest pay package, >> John.
36:14
>> Anyway, whatever they're building, they got to do it on graphite. Graphite.
36:15
dev code review for the age of AI.
36:18
Graphite helps teams on GitHub ship higher quality software faster.
36:21
Um the uh that we didn't really talk about the Sam Alman Elon uh Sam Alman Tucker Carlson episode that went out.
36:30
It was a crazy news day of course with the Kirk assassination.
36:33
Um but Chrisman went viral who's a friend of the show.
36:36
He said, "After spending seven minutes very politely accusing his guest of murder, Tucker just res resumes a normal conversation to round out the interview. Incredible. Best to ever do it."
36:45
And so it goes straight from suspicious death to thoughts on Elon Musk.
36:50
What jobs will be lost to AI?
36:52
What are the downsides of AI? Is AI a religion?
36:53
The dangers of deep fakes. I love it. >> Yeah.
36:57
Do do you think uh this was a net a win for Sam?
37:00
kind of went into >> every I think every PR person thinks it's a it's a own goal or it's like a mistake to do. Um I don't know. It was so bold.
37:12
It it was just it was so unexpected like it was >> remember Tucker had such cheers.
37:19
>> No, you know that that's what's going to happen.
37:20
So you're going into the arena.
37:22
You're going into the lion's den.
37:22
You're you're you're you're debating like the most critical critic possible.
37:27
Uh and there's something brave about that. I don't know. >> You're not afraid. >> Yeah.
37:32
Yeah, I I took it as as >> where you're able to overcome your fear >> as bullish.
37:36
Uh the uh I think Luke Metro had this post where he was saying that uh he his fear of the going direct movement was that was that CEOs would never do a hard interview ever again because there was always someone who was willing to do an easy interview with you.
37:52
There was always oh just do your own podcast.
37:54
OpenAI has their own podcast.
37:56
Sam Alman's brother has a podcast.
37:58
He's friends with the tons tons of people.
38:00
he can come to us and we'll talk to him just about AI and tech and the core business and stuff and have like a business conversation.
38:05
Uh to go to Tucker uh is a is a very very aggressive bold move.
38:10
And um I I I think it's I think it's good leadership. I don't know.
38:15
I think it's I I think it's like it's it's hopefully closing the book on that very sad and tragic saga, but uh who who knows?
38:22
I haven't really dug into like the actual response.
38:24
Were people in Tucker's community swayed?
38:29
That's the real metric probably because you don't want to come out of that and be like, >> Tyler, >> wow, I have more.
38:34
>> You're going to middle America.
38:35
>> You're going to interview thousands of Tucker Carlson uh of super fans. Yeah.
38:41
>> And and ask them, did he do it?
38:43
>> Just ask them, >> do it? No, >> no, no, no. Explain them. Explain to them this.
38:48
Explain to them the full history of OpenAI, all the connections, and see if they're bullish on the stock.
38:55
That's what I want to know.
38:55
Do they think 500 billion is is undervalued or overvalued in middle America?
38:59
That's what I care about.
39:00
Um, so we have our chart of the o open AI and all the connections.
39:08
Uh, Tyler, you were late here last night.
39:11
You didn't leave last night.
39:14
You were here all kind of all nighter. Yeah.
39:15
I I was basically the goal was try to, you know, I want to explain kind of in an easy simple way like how to think about open AI broadly. >> Oh yeah.
39:23
how to think about people who are influencing it.
39:26
>> I think you nailed it >> in a as clear of a way as possible.
39:29
>> I think you nailed it. >> Um, okay.
39:31
>> So, who do we have here at the center? >> Yeah.
39:33
So, I I think it's obviously best to start here. >> Yes.
39:36
>> This is right here in the middle. >> Open AAI. >> Okay.
39:38
So, obviously Sam Alman Openai. This is the core. >> Yes.
39:42
>> Um, >> and so every every line of string here is a real connection. Correct. >> Okay.
39:48
Take us through some of it. >> Yeah.
39:49
So, so um we can see over here these are some of kind of the main deals, right?
39:53
So, we have Larry Ellison, Oracle, >> yes, >> we have Microsoft >> 300 billion plan to build uh data centers and then uh Broadcom is obviously doing chips, custom chips for OpenAI.
40:05
Now, Soft Bank is bankrolling some of it with Stargate.
40:08
Microsoft has the >> What's the connection between John Ivan growing Daniel? >> Oh, okay.
40:15
So, so this is this is actually, you know, double.
40:17
So, so this is uh most people on Twitter, they see this picture, they think growing Daniel, >> but I mean who that's >> it's actually Steve Jobs. >> That's Steve Jobs. >> Steve Jobs.
40:28
>> So, it's really, you know, double. >> Okay.
40:30
>> So, so you see this is Yeah, this is pretty good.
40:31
I want to talk about this.
40:33
So, we have Mark Andrees. >> Yes.
40:35
>> You know, famous kind of interplay between Growing Daniel and Mark Andre, but also, >> you know, with Steve Jobs.
40:41
>> Steve Jobs and Johnny IV. Okay, got it.
40:43
And then >> you're saying that this goes deeper than >> this goes deep.
40:46
>> It goes really deep here. >> How deep does it go? Let's find out. >> Um Okay.
40:49
So then let's just keep moving.
40:52
So So let's go from let's go to some investors, >> please.
40:55
>> Um so we can go from opening eye. Let's see. Josh Kushner.
40:58
>> Josh Kushner, of course. >> Okay.
40:59
But who's Josh Kushner's brother? >> Jared. Where's Jared?
41:03
>> First Trump administration. >> Okay. Yes. >> Okay.
41:05
Now we're now we're in, you know, politics. Let's go down PT. Okay. Right.
41:10
You can see a lot of strings coming out of here. This is a core player. core player.
41:13
>> So, I mean there's so many directions we can go here, but let's go to Delian, right? Yes.
41:17
>> Delian, where does Delian work? Founders Fund. Who is >> Yes.
41:19
>> You know, it's obvious. Okay. >> Yes, it's obvious.
41:21
You're putting it together. >> Okay. Delian's first company. >> Yes. Va. >> No. >> Oh, first company. >> His first company. YC company. >> Oh, yeah. It was a YC company.
41:32
>> What was another YC company? Alexander Wang. >> Oh, wait. Scale.
41:36
>> Scala was a YC company. Okay.
41:38
>> Where does Alex work now? >> Where does he work? Mark Zuckerberg. >> Okay.
41:42
Nat Friedman, they work together. MSL. >> Okay. It's so clear.
41:46
>> Who did Nat Friedman sponsor? >> Who? >> Luke Ferator. >> Oh, Farador.
41:51
>> And where does he work? Doge. Elon. Elon. >> It's all connected.
41:53
And who did Elon start a company with? PT. It goes back. >> There you go. Okay. So, let's see. Wilmanitis. So, Wilmanitis.
42:01
>> How is Wilmanitis connected? This is just a joke.
42:02
He's not actually involved, right?
42:04
>> Well, Wilmanitis was a a what kind of fellow? >> Oh, a teal fellow. That's right.
42:06
This does go pretty deep.
42:11
>> So, and then we can go from Wilmanitis.
42:12
He's obviously, you know, very popular on X. >> He is.
42:15
>> Um, this is another kind of Well, I >> at some point there were too many strings.
42:20
I didn't want to cover it too much. >> Yes.
42:22
>> But there's a lot of connections here.
42:23
Obviously, we can go down to Dwaresh. >> Okay.
42:24
>> So, he he's kind of another power super.
42:28
>> He's interviewed most of these folks.
42:30
>> So, let's go to let's go from >> from Doresh to Gwen, right? >> Okay. Yes.
42:35
>> Gu obviously connected scaling hypothesis.
42:37
very influential on Ilia. >> Yes.
42:40
>> This obviously goes back to OpenAI. >> Yes.
42:42
>> Um it also goes to Carpathy. >> Yes.
42:45
One of the co-founders of OpenAI. >> Yes.
42:47
Also Tesla coie autopilot. Yes. >> Back to Elon. >> Okay. >> Um okay.
42:52
Let's go to this side of the board here. >> Yes. Who we got?
42:56
>> So let's um >> how is uh how is Scarlett Johansson involved? >> Yeah.
43:00
So so uh there's a couple ways she's involved.
43:02
So So obviously the first one she was in her right the movie. >> Yes. >> Famously.
43:06
Um, when OpenAI voice mode was coming out, they wanted to do her voice because, you know, that's like the movie and then she was maybe suing >> and was it Sam or the official OpenAI account that just tweeted her and that was >> I believe it was Sam. >> Yes.
43:21
And and and it was unclear if the licensing was proper at that point.
43:24
So, there was maybe some backlash, maybe some some some legal uh letters traded. >> Who else was in her?
43:31
>> Who else was in Phoenix? >> Yes. Walken Phoenix.
43:33
>> He was also the Joker.
43:33
This is not related to other um things but okay >> we're getting Jokeri Joerger.
43:40
So let's go back to Scar Joe >> in a fast takeoff. We all become >> Joker.
43:42
She was in a movie with another actor. >> Yes. Who? >> Joseph Gordon Levit. >> What movie?
43:48
>> Uh Don John I believe it's called. >> That's right. Don John. Yes. I remember.
43:52
>> So So who is Joseph Gordon Levit?
43:52
This goes deeper than I >> Whoa.
43:56
This does go deeper than that.
43:57
>> Joseph Gordon Levit's wife was previously a board member of OpenAI during the ousting. >> That's true. >> Took Samman out. >> Wow. Oh, it's all connected.
44:04
Why can you not see this? >> It's so clear now. >> Okay.
44:08
So, so now we're in kind of this um you know >> safety. Yes.
44:13
This is all connected here obviously to really get really >> Yeah.
44:18
cuz we can go from here to EA and then to Eleazar. >> Eleazer of course. >> Right.
44:23
And here here's you know >> Yes.
44:26
>> Eleaser's first um organization MIRI machine intelligence research institute. >> Yes.
44:30
That was I believe early on funded by PT. >> Okay.
44:35
>> Um >> how is Eleazar connected to uh Grimes? Is that Grimes on? >> Well, okay.
44:39
Do you not remember this famous picture between um Grimes, Eleazar, and Sam?
44:44
>> Oh, I do remember this. Good sound queue.
44:46
I completely forgot that image.
44:49
That is that that is lore. >> Yeah. Okay.
44:51
So then um Eleazar uh very influential on um this famous book about safety um super intelligence by Nick Bostonramm. >> Okay. Bostonramm. Yes.
45:01
>> Um he is kind of this online >> Yeah.
45:04
philosopher >> almost part of the the blogosphere a little bit. >> Sure. Sure.
45:07
>> Um and connected to Scott Alexander, right?
45:10
>> Uh who was on Doresh's podcast?
45:12
>> Yeah, he was AI2027 part of that crew, right? >> Um >> or Luc.
45:16
>> No, he he he was a commentator on Oh, I guess he I think he was actually an adviser.
45:19
I don't know if he was a co-author, but >> involved.
45:22
>> Yeah, he was involved in >> He's implicated.
45:23
He's it's never been clearer that there's a connection. >> So, let's go.
45:26
Um Okay, let's go back to our cash from here. He was on the podcast. >> Yes.
45:31
>> Um, >> how did Will How did Will catch uh catch a red string just from being a poster on Ax?
45:36
Oh, he also works at Open.
45:38
>> He was just through Oh, uh, Will. >> Oh, well, he's OB.
45:41
Yeah, I mean, he's at XAI.
45:42
He, you know, >> no, no, he's he's on X. He's at OpenAI, right? >> Uh, yes. Yes. Things mixed up here. Got it. >> Um, okay.
45:51
But, okay, we're at Dark Cash. >> Yes. At Dwar Cash. Back to Dark Cash. >> Yes.
45:54
An early guest of Roger Cash was Tyler Cowan. >> Okay.
45:57
Now, Tyler Cowan runs the the Progress Studies Institute.
46:00
I think that's what it's called with >> Patrick Coulsson. Whoa.
46:05
>> Oh, this does go deep.
46:06
>> Now, Patrick Collison famous for being Irish. >> Yeah. Oh, okay. >> Okay.
46:11
And and we see here this is linked with a lot of, you know, who else is Irish?
46:16
>> Irish cabal some kind of >> conspiracy. Yeah.
46:19
Will >> uh we see Jordy John.
46:23
>> Yeah, we're see >> Joe Lansdale. I believe he Irish. No way. I I believe that's true. Have to fact check that. >> I have no idea. >> I think that's true.
46:31
But um I mean the main connection here is Ireland to the uh Illuminati.
46:37
>> The Illuminati are Irish. Why are they Irish?
46:41
>> Well, it's just, you know, general conspiracy.
46:42
Um and then here we get a little off the rails.
46:44
You see George Soros and Fouchy connected with the Illuminati as well. Okay.
46:48
You're saying we're one degree away. >> Yeah.
46:53
>> We're not beating the allegations here.
46:55
But let's stick with Illuminati.
46:55
Let's go up to Brian Johnson, right? >> Okay.
46:57
How is he connected to all this?
46:59
>> Well, there's some sense rumors about um you know, blood of of children, maybe transfusion or something.
47:04
But but really Brian Johnson is part of this kind of health movement, right?
47:09
>> So, who else is part of that?
47:09
Obviously, Andrew Huberman. >> Yes.
47:11
Andrew Huberman, of course.
47:13
>> Um and so he's a you know, health influencer.
47:15
>> Once you're Now you're kind of in the category of just experts broadly.
47:16
So that takes you over to Joe Rogan. >> Yes.
47:20
Obviously, because you know he's a health influencer, but really he's a podcaster at heart. Yes.
47:25
>> Um, so, so now we're in this kind of manister.
47:27
We see Theo Von who's obviously connected in many ways um to to Alexander Wang to to to Zuck to um Sam.
47:35
>> The Ovon's really I mean he could potentially be at the center of this whole thing. >> Yeah, for sure.
47:39
>> Potentially given how many >> in the past year he's become kind of a tech power player.
47:43
>> That's the point of all this uh all this red string.
47:45
You have to see who has the most connections. MS has got two. TBPN has like 12.
47:50
>> And I see raw milk up in the left corner.
47:54
You're kind of dancing around that.
47:54
Are you afraid to talk about >> Justin? So, we're at Joe Rogan.
47:58
Let's go back to Andrew Human.
47:59
So, >> another kind of person in the health um you know area, Justin Mayers. >> Yes.
48:06
>> I believe former guest >> he is a fan of raw milk.
48:08
>> He's a fan of raw milk. >> Certainly is.
48:09
But then we see the second string here.
48:11
Let's just follow this down. >> How does raw milk?
48:15
>> Oh, Jordy not beating the raw milk allegations. >> Okay.
48:19
Um but then >> Cuban Cuban was was take >> Cuban was anti but he's not on the >> He didn't make the board.
48:25
>> He didn't make the board because he's not he's not implicated.
48:26
He would have made the board.
48:28
I I think the next iteration is is 3D.
48:30
>> What's going on with Larry up there in the center? Uh >> yeah.
48:34
So he connected to >> Larry's implicated in a lot of ways.
48:36
So So let's just for a second.
48:39
>> Um so so we're in this kind of uh you know podcasting space. Obviously David Senra. >> Yes. >> James Dyson.
48:44
>> James Dyson latest episode.
48:44
Look, I mean, this is a very pure that's the most pure placement on the board, right?
48:50
Hanging out on his own, just connected to Senra.
48:52
>> He's connected to Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah.
48:54
James Dyson's just in his lane, just hanging out in Founders Podcast. >> Exactly.
48:57
But but let's go from from Senra to >> um >> Larry Ellison, right?
49:01
There's been I think I think three episodes on Larry Ellison.
49:06
>> Um Larry Ellison is also connected in a lot of ways um >> to Sam because of the you know the deal, but also to Elon, right?
49:13
This famous You wrote a billion dollar check. >> Yeah. Yeah.
49:18
Uh I think I recommend two billion, but whatever you think, you know. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
49:21
>> Um >> help help fund the buyout.
49:22
I see Rahul Sunwalker on there. >> Exactly. Yeah.
49:26
So So Rahul is is is kind of an interesting person here.
49:29
So he's connected to Growing Daniel obviously because they did this famous stunt. >> Yes.
49:35
>> Um his company is in YC. >> Yes.
49:38
>> Which again I think we covered YC before but obviously Sam. >> Yeah. It all adds up now. >> Yeah.
49:42
It's pretty obvious there. Delian YC.
49:45
YC is also I mean there's not a lot of strings here but you can you could you know pull a lot of strings just from YC.
49:51
>> Now take me through the chess board.
49:52
What's going on over there? >> Yeah. Yeah.
49:53
So so let's go um let's just start with PT again. Right. So famous chess player. >> It all comes back. >> Famous chess player. Yes.
50:00
>> Um >> so obviously connection there. David Sax also. >> Oh yeah.
50:03
They play chess together.
50:03
Know where where Sax is beating him. >> Yes.
50:08
>> And then yeah we see from chess we see two other famous chess players.
50:12
>> Bes sisters and Magnus Carlson.
50:12
Clearly >> they related to this were were I believe they were speaking at the All- In Summit. >> Oh, they were.
50:19
>> I don't know about this most recent one, but in the past they certainly have.
50:22
>> Um, >> puzzle pieces are starting to fit together. >> Yeah.
50:24
So, so chess is is is a board game, right?
50:26
What's another board game? Go Liy Dole. >> Yes. >> Okay.
50:29
The famous Let me let me go over here.
50:32
>> Also, Cigarette Smoker. >> Exactly. Yeah.
50:34
Lid do go to smoke dur during the the famous uh Deep Mind Alpha Go.
50:39
>> That's Yeah, I remember.
50:41
So, so then obviously connected to Dennis indeed.
50:44
>> Then we see the rest of of Google here.
50:46
We see Eric Schmidt again connected to PT. >> Okay.
50:49
>> And you know their famous debate.
50:49
Um you know >> is that Will Brown? >> Will Brown.
50:53
So So Will Brown is >> I think you're letting him off easy here.
50:57
>> Will Brown is tealbacked. >> Okay. Yes.
50:59
>> Because Prime Intellect. >> Prime Intellect. Of course.
51:01
>> He's also frequent um engager >> reply guy with guy. Reply guy.
51:06
>> That'll get you on the board these days if you're a reply guy in Rune. >> Yeah.
51:10
If you're going back and forth with Rune, you're on the board.
51:12
>> Rune, there's also a lot of strings coming out up here.
51:13
He's he's has his hands in a lot of lot of places. >> Yes.
51:16
Fingers in a lot of pies. >> Exactly. >> Donald Boat. >> Yeah. Donald Boat. Yeah.
51:20
So, so Donald Boat was also one that I I could have had a lot more strings coming from.
51:26
>> Um but the main one was I mean Donald Boat's real recent rise to fame was was asking um Sam for a GPU. Yes. >> Which was sent.
51:36
>> And he also just offered Sam some rice.
51:38
I think he really he got around 600 pounds of rice on some online arbitrage and he was >> offering it up.
51:46
>> Symbolism will be his downfall potentially. Let's figure it out.
51:50
>> Um and then obviously Will was also uh heavily in in these kind of Donald Boat sagas. >> Yes.
51:56
>> Um >> I believe he sent him a CPU case.
51:59
>> Yeah, I think I mean those are I would say those are mostly the broad strokes.
52:03
I think you're close to figuring it out.
52:04
>> I think it's pretty clear now. I think I understand. Yeah.
52:06
So, so that that's kind of like if you want to think about OpenAI in like an easy way like who's kind of >> who's who's kind of, you know, making a lot of the decisions, how are they being influenced?
52:14
They're not making the direct decision. >> Way to understand.
52:17
>> I would say this is a kind of a good picture.
52:19
It's a good place to start.
52:20
>> Who who the players are.
52:20
Masa, you didn't cover Masa, but he's he's sitting, you know, sort of quietly confident, you know, not totally in his own lane, but not, you know, >> so he's the connection between Sam Alman and Donald Trump on Stargate because he was he was uh on announcing the Stargate.
52:37
>> Obviously, Trump has linked to a lot of these people like um you know, Sergey >> just because of the the recent dinner.
52:43
>> Oh yes, they had dinner together.
52:45
>> That merits some string.
52:46
>> Here's the chic of um UAE. >> Okay.
52:48
Uh, I think there is some Stargate um development UAE.
52:53
>> Yeah, they're working on it.
52:54
>> Um, >> well, thank you for taking us taking us through it.
52:57
It all >> it's pretty crystal clear to me.
52:58
Jordy, what do you think?
53:00
>> I mean, yeah, I mean, it's surprised it took people this long to kind of crack the code.
53:06
>> It's all been It's all been out there in the open.
53:08
Symbolism will be their >> downfall.
53:10
Pretty pretty easy pretty easy to figure out.
53:11
Well, thank you for the hard work, Taylor. >> Well done.
53:15
All it took was one intern and an allnighter and I guess a gap semester.
53:20
>> We got to load up all this into Julius and analyze it, find more connections.
53:24
What analysis do you want to run chat with your data and get expert level insights in seconds?
53:27
We saw Raul up on the board.
53:30
Uh uh they're loved by over two million users and trusted by individuals at Princeton, BCG, and Zapier. >> Let's continue.
53:38
Uh Rune also on the board was on the timeline talking about uh making the argument that we are currently in the fast takeoff scenario. Uh very fun post.
53:49
He says, "Right now is the time where the takeoff looks the most rapid to insiders.
53:53
We don't program anymore.
53:56
We just yell at codeex agents, but may look slow to everyone else as the general chatbot medium saturates."
54:04
And so Prince, there's a bunch of reactions to this. We'll go through it.
54:07
Prince says fast takeoff does not require automation of AI research.
54:11
The loop starts when AI researchers productivity starts accelerating due to availability of better and better AI models including coding agents.
54:20
Uh super Dario says uh the that the is a this is a little bit of confusing post but he says Daario was wrong about 90% of coding being done by AI boys in shambles.
54:32
So if you were if you were thinking that 90% of coding would not be done by AI, you are in shambles because 90% of coding is being done by AI.
54:40
Uh there's also >> and we have Alex who's running codecs at OpenAI coming on Yeah. later today.
54:48
>> We will we will press him on are we are we just writing 10 times as much code or are we writing the same amount of code just 90% more efficiently?
54:55
What's actually going on?
54:58
Um there's a lot >> placing engineers yet or are we just >> now that engineers can make do 10 times as much >> just more leverage? Yes.
55:05
At what abstraction layer are we operating?
55:07
And then also just how much is uh is just raw coding a uh a gate to better and better super intelligence.
55:17
Is that the critical path?
55:19
critical path? Is it just an engineering problem where you have need to write a lot of code or is there something where we need, you know, a vast amount of um I was listening to Mark Zuckerberg on Dark Cesh this morning and he was saying that
55:31
he's he's not a believer in fast takeoff because he thinks that at a certain point it just takes time to marshall the resources to build all the chips and a certain amount of time to build all the infrastructure to generate all the electricity and that that will act as a natural slowing function. Um, but
55:46
Um, but there's some good economic news.
55:49
There's some there's a variety of different data points that we've been looking at to to to track how fast of a takeoff are we in.
55:56
Are we going exponential or are we on our sigmoid grind set and will we be plateauing at some >> that'd be a good name for somebody's alt account?
56:05
Sigmoid >> sigmoid grind set.
56:06
I mean, it's progress historically has been a series of sigmoid functions.
56:10
Um, and uh, overall progress looks smooth when you zoom out.
56:16
But if you go inside of a of a chip company, inside of Intel, like the the creators of Moors law, Moore's law looks very smooth.
56:23
But if you actually interview the people inside of Intel, they'll tell you that there were tons of little gains that then plateaued.
56:29
They added all those up to get incremental gains.
56:33
and and when you zoom out, you see uh the the the density of the transistors and the the the cost per performance increasing exponentially, but uh it was a lot of hard-fought wins along the way.
56:44
And we're probably seeing something similar in AI.
56:46
Well, if you need a generative media platform, if you're a developer, go to fall, the world's best generative image, video, and audio models all in one place.
56:57
Develop and fine-tune models with serverless GPUs and ondemand clusters.
57:01
>> Look at those logos, John.
57:01
Adobe, Shopify, Canva, Cora, Perplexity, >> love it, >> Gen Spark, and many more.
57:07
>> Dean Ball is replying to Rune.
57:07
He says, "If this mirrors anything like the experience of other Frontier Lab employees, and anecdotally, it does.
57:14
It would suggest that Daario's much mocked prediction about AI writing 90% of code was indeed correct, at least for those among whom AI diffusion is happening quickest."
57:25
Uh and and Mark Zuckerberg's been on the record saying that he thinks that Meta will write 90% of code with AI as well.
57:31
And uh Coinbase CEO Brian Armstrong has also said that the amount of code that's being written by AI is uh growing exponentially and is probably on the path to being 90% uh AI written.
57:42
Um certainly haven't laid off 90% of the engineers and so there's some interesting dynamic going on there.
57:49
Um, but we'll we'll continue to monitor it.
57:54
>> On Jane at at Andre, >> he's been on tear. He's posting.
57:58
>> Yeah, he's been posting it up.
57:58
Uh, he says, "AI models with consumption consumption usage based pricing are decimating seatbased pricing in ways most teams don't understand yet.
58:06
SAS apocalypse in full swing.
58:08
You had some some good uh supporting charts on that yesterday showing a bunch of, you know, seatbased SAS companies down and to the right. >> Yep. Uh yeah, ve very tricky.
58:19
We've seen some of them uh reposition.
58:22
I mean, Salesforce, I think like over a year ago, Mark Beni off was saying like we're going to outcomesbased pricing on on AI agents.
58:34
We're going to we're going to charge per resolution, per value.
58:36
But it feels like some of these models are really sticky and some a lot of the clients are like, we like our current setup or we're going to go somewhere else.
58:44
Um, and it certainly allowed other people to kind of eat off their plate.
58:48
>> Outcomesbased pricing when you're providing software to manage a process is difficult. Yep.
58:55
>> Because if somebody's selling, >> for example, like coding agents and and the agent can do something and there's a certain economic value to that and somebody's saying, well, if I had an engineer do this, it would have taken them this much time.
59:07
It has like a clear value.
59:09
But if somebody's using Salesforce to close a $20 million deal, are they going to want to pay Salesforce some percentage of that just because they had that when it could have been, you know, one sales rep just like grinding to get that deal done, right? >> Yeah. Uh yeah.
59:27
Lot lots of lots of questions for the public company SAS CEOs.
59:32
Um a lot of them will have to set up new narratives for how their pricing works going forward.
59:38
um they should be able to bring their products in line with consumption-based models, but uh I wonder how difficult it will be for them to actually convince their customers to switch over to something that's more >> Yeah.
59:52
Which the the alternative is I mean, >> you know, uh Palunteer specifically has said, you know, we're we're doing valuebased pricing, right?
1:00:00
We're gonna we're gonna you're going to get this much value from what we're doing for you. Yep.
1:00:05
and we're going to charge you this much and you can run the calculus. >> Prices are high.
1:00:10
>> So prices are high but the example I think we were covering it yesterday said >> somebody's willing to pay $10 million to do something that's going to make or save them $und00 million.
1:00:18
That's a trade that you know people take.
1:00:22
>> It does seem it does seem highly aligned uh when it can work.
1:00:24
Um, and so I mean it it it makes sense that so many of these companies that have the new business model are kind of uh ramping so quickly and uh that's certainly the uh the the result of the uh like those crazy revenue ramps that we've been seeing.
1:00:38
Anyway, uh get your brand mentioned in chatbt with profound reach millions of consumers who are using AI to discover new products and brands and get a demo.
1:00:47
Um David Center has some sage advice from David Oglev >> investor in profound. >> Yes. rarely invest >> rarely.
1:00:55
Uh David Senra says uh quoting David Oggov, I admire people who work with gusto.
1:01:01
If you don't enjoy what you are doing, I beg you to find another job.
1:01:06
Remember the Scottish proverb, be happy while you're living for you're a long time dead. It's good message.
1:01:10
Uh find something that you love doing and stick with it. Work with gusto.
1:01:16
Um and he's not talking >> what's going on here with World Labs.
1:01:23
Yeah, if we can pull this video up.
1:01:23
So, this is one of the latest uh persistent generative 3D world.
1:01:28
So, World Labs is uh Fe Lee's project.
1:01:31
Um she's hiring generative AI model optimization engineers, bisop bisops folks, uh research engineers, lots of different folks.
1:01:41
But, uh they have a new uh world model that we can play the video for and see this.
1:01:47
This is generated in real time. time.
1:01:51
I think they upload a single image and then you can move around it.
1:01:54
Uh, and all this is you like the music.
1:02:01
>> It's pretty remarkable.
1:02:01
Yeah, I mean it does feel like a video game. >> It's very pleasant.
1:02:06
>> I I I I have a big question about how this productizes still.
1:02:10
I was noodling on it uh months ago when we were or maybe it was a few weeks ago when Google came out with their model.
1:02:17
Uh, Tyler, do you remember that? Yeah.
1:02:19
I mean, so so this is um Were you talking about like the the video model that you can control around? >> Yep. Yeah.
1:02:26
This is the same thing, right? >> Uh no.
1:02:28
So, so this is different.
1:02:28
So, this is um you can actually um go on if you go to marble. worldlabs. ai. >> Yeah. I'm on here right now.
1:02:35
It's pretty >> You can play with it. >> Yeah.
1:02:40
So, what um if you move around um you'll it's basically it's a Gaussian splat. >> Okay.
1:02:45
Um, so it's like looks really good and then if you keep going you'll you'll start to notice like the little artifacts and stuff and then if you go far enough away from like kind of the center spot where the >> world was originally generated, you'll notice it's like >> you know completely like random like >> Okay.
1:03:00
>> Um so yes, this is a different um like completely different architecture than the Google one. Yeah. >> Yeah.
1:03:06
Cuz that was basically just um a video model. >> Sure.
1:03:09
Um, but it would have the overlay of the keyboard >> and then when you would um interact with the keyboard, it would overlay like the keystrokes onto the video and then it would continually be like rendering new frames. >> Yeah.
1:03:22
>> Um, so this is just like this one it it generates the world the Gaussian splat once and you can just like move around in it, >> but it's not like a video that's constantly being rendered new. >> Yeah. Yeah.
1:03:32
Oh, it looks really weird once you leave. This is bizarre.
1:03:34
Um, yeah, I remember Gaussian splats uh being popular like a year or two ago and then they sort of fell out of favor.
1:03:42
I It felt like they were very uh compute intense just to generate a single one and we never got to like the one-click app that people can just download and then play with.
1:03:52
There was no like game mechanic built around it.
1:03:54
It was very much like tech preview mode. >> Yeah.
1:03:58
So I um the the big thing that came out uh with Gaussian splats like yeah probably a year ago um was that it became very easy to render your own.
1:04:05
So like I I made one I think it's on my website but it's basically like my room >> that I made and you if if you have like a if you can shoot on RAW you basically take a ton of pictures of your room from all different or whatever it is from a bunch of different angles.
1:04:19
Then you can like >> load those up. You load those up.
1:04:20
you you basically train a model to figure out where the images were taken and then from there you you can train a model from that which you can do on >> everything.
1:04:28
>> Yeah, I trained it locally on my on my PC. Okay.
1:04:31
>> So, it's not that computer uh >> Do you remember like roughly how long the training run took on the >> So, I have a 4090 it took like 45 minutes.
1:04:38
>> Oh, that's not that bad. >> Yeah, not bad at all. Yeah.
1:04:39
Um, but this >> so you could you imagine with some with some optimization, you could wind up and if you're running it on server quality hardware, you could imagine an iPhone app where you take some pictures, upload it, and then it's like push notification in 5 minutes or 10 minutes. >> Yeah, for sure. >> Yeah.
1:04:58
>> Um, but this is the first kind of thing, at least I've seen, of where it's like totally like generated.
1:05:03
Like I mean usually when you see a Gasian splat it's of like a real physical location that someone's taken like drone shots of or something.
1:05:12
>> Um but like I mean these are very clearly like AI generated in some way like there maybe they trained on video games or something like that.
1:05:19
>> Um >> but yeah usually when you see a Gaussian splat it's of like a physical location. >> Yeah.
1:05:25
Uh c can you think of any like uh practical application for these?
1:05:31
Everyone always says like, "Oh, you'll use it to train robots or like robotic models or something like this is like synthetic data for for training robot uh like robotic systems."
1:05:40
But I I feel like there's a consumer app in here somewhere, whether it's like generating video game levels or something or like using this as some sort of pipeline for creation of some video game.
1:05:52
I I keep I keep wondering and this is a question uh we'll have to talk to the meta team about tomorrow.
1:05:58
Um, I keep wondering about the like we're we're getting close to a point where someone should be able to make a game as easy as they make a meme and post it on Instagram, but there isn't really a place where that lives right now.
1:06:18
We've talked to a couple YC companies that are like, "We will vibe code an app for you that you can put in the in straight to test flight."
1:06:25
Um, but I feel like there like we we're going to do a deep dive on Roblox at some point, but I feel like there's like something that's going to happen in like AI enabled Roblox world where you you can you can kind of like describe and be leveraging a lot of AI tools to describe a world >> blocks for AI will be Roblox.
1:06:48
>> Maybe >> they're definitely not asleep here.
1:06:49
We got to get some of their updated numbers.
1:06:52
I I think they were pulling um >> yeah, Brandon sent me the the the data.
1:06:58
We're going to do a whole deep dive on it.
1:07:00
Uh it's >> probably >> it's in it's in the deck at some point, but um >> we should probably set up a Ultradoo in Roblox that people can watch the show to get the next generation, you know, hooked on.
1:07:12
>> So, Dexter has a post here that says, "Seal a brain rot game has broken all-time high concurrent player records. Roblox topped out at 23.
1:07:20
4 million while Fortnite reached 542,000.
1:07:28
Are these similar products or >> the platformwide record, I guess, was August 23rd.
1:07:33
Roblox hit a record of 47.
1:07:33
4 million players simultaneously across the platform. >> Wow, that is a ton.
1:07:40
Roblox by itself has more monthly concurrent users than all of Steam, Xbox, and PlayStation combined.
1:07:49
Uh, and Jeremiah Johnson says, uh, even the most chronically online people have no idea how staggeringly unfathomably big Roblox is right now.
1:07:57
Is Roblox a public company? >> Yes. >> Yeah. Right. They got out. Are they ripping?
1:08:05
>> They had a Hindenburg research. >> Whoa.
1:08:06
Hindenburg got blown out then because Roblox is way up.
1:08:09
Uh, it's a 94 billion dollar company now.
1:08:14
Uh there's uh isn't there I think I think there's a VC that uh David Senra did a did did an episode about or at least like met uh and and kind of did a deep dive on um who uh who invested very early and did very well. Um fantastic.
1:08:29
Do do you have any more context to add?
1:08:34
>> Um I mean not about robots specifically but I think broadly like for for gaming I think there's kind of like two ways to think about like how how we can have AI gaming.
1:08:42
So, so one is like the Google kind of strategy of what they've been doing where it's like the frames are literally like rendered real time.
1:08:50
>> Um, where everything is like all the mechanics, all the, you know, the person, the the setting, it's all completely like generated on the fly. >> Yep.
1:08:59
>> And then there's like this kind of strategy which is where like the world is generated, but you're still going to have um like the the mechanics of the game are still going to be like written normally. >> Yeah.
1:09:08
>> Um, >> so like if you if you play around with this, you'll notice like there's no mechanics at all.
1:09:12
You just you can move around, but there's no interaction or anything.
1:09:16
>> Um I assume they're they're working on like >> inventory health bar. >> Yeah.
1:09:20
Or even just like you can't go through the wall. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> Um >> Yeah.
1:09:25
>> So yeah, I guess we'll see.
1:09:25
Um but >> yeah, I I wonder it feels like it'll be really slow.
1:09:32
Like I haven't even heard about >> Gabe says IKEA has a Roblox store that they pay employees a real wage to work at.
1:09:39
>> Oh yeah, that's hilarious.
1:09:39
So, you can go shop in in Roblox and you can buy stuff in the in the metaverse.
1:09:46
>> I wonder what kind of sales that drives or if it's just >> it's just 75% of Roblox's revenue or something.
1:09:51
We did just printing for IKEA.
1:09:53
It's probably Roblox has got to be bigger than IKEA.
1:09:55
What's IKEA's market cap? I IKEA market cap. Let's see.
1:09:57
Oh, it's Wait, not it's private. Interesting. Okay. Private company.
1:10:03
Um anyway um I I >> John I don't know there IKEA's revenue I think is well beyond Roblox way beyond.
1:10:15
>> Oh yeah how big is it >> for 2024 was 45 billion euros.
1:10:19
>> Okay >> but you know it's not SAS margins here like there is a marginal cost to making a table and shipping it.
1:10:27
>> Um but yeah I mean see fantastic business >> order magnitude more. >> Yeah.
1:10:31
Um I I do wonder um like it feels like even the basic LLMs like we've passed the touring test.
1:10:37
We have the ability to just like talk to an NPC in a way that's more convincing than the presscripted chats that go into most video games.
1:10:46
And yet I still haven't at least heard like a successful story of just a game that broke through that's really leveraging like GPT4 level technology. Um, >> so interesting.
1:11:00
>> And even and even the generated images like just being able to use a, you know, older midjourney model to generate textures on the fly.
1:11:08
There's this game called No Man's Sky.
1:11:10
Are you familiar with this? Probably not.
1:11:12
Uh, are you familiar with No Man's Sky?
1:11:15
>> I've never played it, but I I >> Yeah.
1:11:16
So, it it's a space exploration game.
1:11:18
You you you move around from from uh from planet to planet, and all the planets are procedurally generated.
1:11:24
So they're they're generated somewhat randomly.
1:11:28
Um but then they are like baked down into a database.
1:11:30
And so there's a whole bunch of different variables that are randomly like different sliders for like the size of the creatures on this particular planet, the color of the plants on this planet, the dust. Yeah, exactly.
1:11:42
Uh and all of that's generated and then saved into the database and then uh but it but it creates this like kind of unlimited canvas to explore.
1:11:50
You could do that in a much more aggressive way with generative AI, but um I haven't seen anyone break through.
1:11:58
I think it just takes time to actually implement this stuff. >> Yeah.
1:12:01
Well, I mean that's kind of what like Genie 3 is.
1:12:03
I remembered what it was called, but it's just so comput intensive.
1:12:07
I mean, they still are like it's very much a research preview that like they can't run because it's so expensive. >> Yeah.
1:12:13
You would just think that there would be a uh like a a a like if you go two versions back, you get a model that can actually be baked down to the point where it can run on an Xbox or run on a PC and can generate.
1:12:28
>> All right, gamers breaking news for you.
1:12:31
>> Give us the breaking news.
1:12:32
>> Tik Tok's US business uh details are starting to emerge.
1:12:36
One, the deadline for the ban has been pushed back.
1:12:41
>> Um and details are coming out.
1:12:41
The journal has some reporting.
1:12:44
>> What's the poly market at? Let's pull that up.
1:12:46
>> Poly market is crashing, right? >> Yeah.
1:12:49
So, right now there is a 24% chance that a sale will be announced by September 30th.
1:12:56
>> 60% chance that it'll be announced by uh the end of the year. Mhm.
1:13:01
>> Uh but the journal is reporting that uh Tik Tok's US business would may be controlled by a consortium including Oracle, Silver Lake.
1:13:13
>> Oo, >> and guess the last one, >> Larry Ellison.
1:13:17
Personally, >> Andre Horowit.
1:13:20
>> Andre Horway framework the US and China are finalizing as talks shift into higher gear.
1:13:25
>> The arrangement discussed by US and Chinese negotiators in Madrid this week.
1:13:29
Remember, we talked to Bill Bishop yesterday about the meeting in Madrid.
1:13:33
Uh would create a new US entity to operate the app with US investors holding a roughly 80% stake in Chinese shareholders owning the rest.
1:13:39
The people said this new company would also have an American dominated board with one member designated by the US government.
1:13:48
Existing users in I wonder if Trump ends up with a with a state for Uncle Sam. >> Uncle Sam.
1:13:53
uh existing users in the US would be asked to shift to a new app which Tik Tok has built and is testing.
1:13:59
People familiar with the matter said Tik Tok engineers will recreate a set of content recommendation algorithms for the app >> using technology license from Tik Tok's parent bite dance. >> Okay, goofy.
1:14:14
>> Uh US software giant Oracle, a longtime Tik Tok partner, would handle user data at its facilities in Texas.
1:14:19
Both sides are still working out the final details of what the proposed deal and terms could change.
1:14:24
Negotiations over Tik Tok came as both Washington and Beijing lay the groundwork for potential meeting between President Trump and Xi with Beijing pushing for a Trump visit to China.
1:14:34
That would be that would be crazy.
1:14:37
They said thank you for uh they want to be they want that meeting to happen somewhere where Trump can't fly the um >> the Alaska shot Tik Tok plan to comply with US law.
1:14:49
tech industry executive argue its algorithms must be created and maintained by an American engineering team insulated from Chinese influence.
1:14:57
Beyond the financial terms, deciding how to handle Tik Tok's algorithm has been a tricky part of the deal because it is seen as arguably the most lucrative part of the company.
1:15:07
Uh uh we've got a deal on Tik Tok.
1:15:08
I've reached a deal with China.
1:15:10
I'm going to speak with President Xi on Friday to confirm, Trump said out of the White House Tuesday morning before leaving for a trip to the UK.
1:15:16
These are very big companies that want to buy it.
1:15:18
The framework of the arrangement came together.
1:15:21
Uh anyways, starting to just repeat itself here. Um but uh this is big.
1:15:28
>> Well, if they ma if they want to manage their software development process in the new American Tik Tok, they got to get on linear.
1:15:33
Linear is a purpose-built tool for planning and building products.
1:15:37
Meet the system for modern software development.
1:15:38
Streamline issues, projects, and product road mapaps.
1:15:39
Uh I think if Andre's buying it, it's got to be all Mark and Ben show.
1:15:43
be all Mark and Ben show. whole the whole feed 100% of Tik Tok content should be the market show >> Elon Elon the attention he gets on >> A16Z it's a media company that monetizes through venture put the andre content put your thumb on the scale Brent Eric
1:16:00
Torenberg we want your thumb on the scale TVN a little bit of a snack in the new Tik Tok but I want mostly Andre Horowitz content with a couple American Dynams and vibr please that will make America great AC uh portfolio company launch video, one Mark and Ben clip, one regular >> just make the whole feed. Every single
1:16:20
Every single Tik Tok user, they'll love it.
1:16:22
There won't be any backlash.
1:16:26
I want the thumb on the scale.
1:16:26
Truly, I would I would I would that would get me to use Tik Tok.
1:16:30
I enjoy the Mark and Ben show. I enjoy Andre's content. It'd be a lot of fun.
1:16:34
Anyway, um, our buddies over at public.
1:16:37
com launched a new account on X that you can use to just tag like ask Grock Grock, is this true?
1:16:44
You can tag at underscore at genen_assets and you can tag it in any thread that mentions multiple tickers and this bot will automatically run a back test on their performance against the S&P 500.
1:17:00
So, I went to a a post that was about Tesla and Google, and I asked, "How are they doing as a pair?"
1:17:05
And it immediately told me that I massively missed out because over the last 10 years, those two stocks, uh, the tech titans, as they're called here, uh, had 10-year returns of 7,548%.
1:17:18
Uh, of course, you'd have to you'd have to deal with a max draw down of 56%, but if you held, you did very well with a 70% annual return.
1:17:24
And it gives you the it gives you the the link right there.
1:17:29
if you want to jump in to that.
1:17:29
So, if you're interested in investing, head over to public.
1:17:33
com investing for those that take it seriously. Um, >> very cool.
1:17:38
>> Ashwin, uh, who is, uh, we we we've featured him on the show before.
1:17:41
Uh, Ashwin says he's opening a coffee shop in Southern California.
1:17:45
Here's how he's going to win.
1:17:46
He's going to open at 5:00 a. m.
1:17:48
He'll have baristas from New York, so it doesn't take 8 minutes to make your cortado.
1:17:52
I don't know what a cortado is.
1:17:54
That must be some sort of coffee beverage.
1:17:55
But, uh, I like the idea of opening early.
1:17:57
We were running into this earlier.
1:17:59
We we left the gym and there's this there's this cool new cafe on the corner that's uh making a big push into breakfast.
1:18:05
They don't start serving breakfast till 9:00 a. m.
1:18:08
>> And we were we were like they're they didn't get the memo about the great lock in like you can't how can you compete in the great breakfast wars?
1:18:16
>> I've always thought it's funny.
1:18:16
Have you Have you Have you tried to get a coffee early in Manhattan? >> No. >> It's terrible. >> It is.
1:18:22
If you're if you're a >> I thought he Ashwin is saying that it's the best in New York. >> I don't know.
1:18:27
I've had a rough I mean I if if you wake up at 5:30 in New York good luck getting a a coffee that's not you know something something pre-made at at Whole Foods.
1:18:38
>> Got to bring a bring up a case of the matina podcast in a can.
1:18:42
>> This post was funny that Zoolanderification of Kyle Sanmani should be stunned.
1:18:47
>> He's looking great looking abs.
1:18:52
I've seen this happen to other people that make billions of dollars.
1:18:54
It tends to happen, but it's not always. And I love to see it. >> He locked in.
1:19:00
He's clearly hitting the gym. He's looking fantastic.
1:19:02
I think this last image is from his guest spot on our show, too. Which I love.
1:19:06
Uh so, I'm glad that we're uh we're helping people understand the zooland bugle fat to fund uh the the working out.
1:19:18
He's just getting in the gym.
1:19:19
Yeah, >> we'll have to get his routine.
1:19:20
We got Alex Karp's workout routine.
1:19:22
We'll have to get everyone's workout routine cost. >> Geer Capital here. S&P 500 all-time high. NASDAQ alltime high. Gold alltime high. Bitcoin alltime high.
1:19:32
Home prices alltime high. Time to cut rates. Time to cut rates. Cheers.
1:19:39
Geer Capital was on a tear. Another post.
1:19:42
Uh the Atlanta Fed is now projecting the Q3 GDP will be 3. 4%. A massive expansion.
1:19:47
The US economy is running hot.
1:19:50
Uh, I mean GDP growth is is good.
1:19:53
I wouldn't really call that running I mean it's running a little hot, but you don't want necessarily want to pull that back if you're >> so hard.
1:20:00
It's it's uh >> all data is all data is uh is either real or fake. That's all I'll say.
1:20:08
>> I know what's driving the the higher GDP growth for sure.
1:20:12
>> It's businesses spending less time on sales tax compliance. >> That's true.
1:20:16
>> Uh they got on numeral numeralhq. com.
1:20:19
They put their sales tax on autopilot.
1:20:20
They're spending less than five minutes a month on sales tax and clients and now they're growing their businesses.
1:20:25
They're growing the US economy. It's all crazy.
1:20:27
America empire continues.
1:20:27
Uh the most extraordinary Fed meeting has yet to be kicked off or has yet has just kicked off. This is from CNN.
1:20:34
Uh Federal Reserve officials are convening Tuesday and Wednesday for a pivotal meeting under unprecedented circumstances.
1:20:41
On Wednesday, at the conclusion of their two-day policy meeting, central bankers are expected to announce their first interest rate cut since December to support America's slower slowing labor market.
1:20:52
Um, with hopes that President Donald Trump's expensive tariffs might only have a limited impact.
1:20:58
>> The Fed decision in September on poly market has 163 million of volume.
1:21:04
currently pricing that's total volume but they're currently pricing >> uh 95 95% chance of a 25 uh uh basis point decrease. >> Mhm.
1:21:16
>> So >> so yeah I mean the markets at alltime highs gold's at gold's at alltime highs.
1:21:21
Bitcoins at all times at all-time highs, but uh job growth during the summer was anemic, says CNN Business.
1:21:26
Employers added an average of about 29,000 jobs in three months ending in August, according to Labor Department data, slightly higher than July's average, which is the weakest 3-month pay since 2010.
1:21:37
Outside of the pandemic, there are now more unemployed people seeking work than there are job openings.
1:21:44
new applications for jobless benefits in the week ending September 6th rose to the highest level in early nearly four years.
1:21:51
Uh if the Fed cuts, maybe that will stimulate investment in business, new uh uh you know take on extra debt that works its way through the economy. You wind up levering up.
1:22:05
>> You know something crazy Martinelli shorting open door.
1:22:09
>> Oh he is >> uh right going into a rate cut is crazy. >> That is bold.
1:22:14
Uh, he said, "I shorted open today at $9. 36.
1:22:19
This is the first trade I've made in the stock.
1:22:20
I will be doing diligence calls with former employees, customers, competitors, and hopefully management, too.
1:22:25
>> I will send invites to the calls or anonymous transcripts as appropriate."
1:22:30
>> So, >> he is becoming provocator. Yeah.
1:22:31
I mean, he's he's taking up the mantle of uh so many short sellers before him.
1:22:37
Uh not won't be making a lot of friends, but uh good luck to him.
1:22:42
Uh uh we already covered Tik Tok.
1:22:45
Uh you put this post in here.
1:22:49
In Brazil, an Australian pilot. Break this down. Yes.
1:22:54
Why did you put this in here?
1:22:56
>> Well, tell us the story and then explain why you >> Yes, this popped up.
1:22:59
Uh in Brazil, an Australian pilot, Timothy James Clark, uh died in a plane crash with 180 kg of cocaine on board.
1:23:09
>> Drugs packaged with SpaceX branding. >> Yes. Why SpaceX? >> I had no idea.
1:23:13
That's why I just thought it was totally a >> tech story that >> it's really you you saw SpaceX and you're like, "This is business news."
1:23:21
>> Well, you know, I like following the the >> You love the traffickers. You love that. >> It puts me to sleep.
1:23:25
And I can't I can't when I'm trying to fall asleep, I can't listen to I can't watch tech content.
1:23:31
Then my brain's going to start working. Sure.
1:23:32
>> I have to just follow the uh >> So, the drugs were packaged with SpaceX branding.
1:23:37
They were recovered from the wreckage of a sling aircraft.
1:23:38
They just need to know the mindset of somebody who's like packaging uh making making drugs look like they're SpaceX branding, thinking, "Okay, if the authorities find this Yeah.
1:23:52
>> they're just going to be like, "Oh, this is this is something from SpaceX.
1:23:53
I don't need I don't need to dig in here at all." >> Yeah. What were they thinking?
1:23:59
>> This is This doesn't look sketchy at all.
1:24:01
>> This is blatant trademark infringement.
1:24:04
You did not license this logo. I wag my finger on this. I do not like this.
1:24:07
Um, and a very odd photo of the culprit, the Australian pilot Timothy James Clark.
1:24:17
Uh, he has a very odd photo with some scantlyclad women. Um, but dark story.
1:24:23
Uh, hope they uh prevent future drug trafficking.
1:24:26
Uh, since we do not endorse anything of the sort on this, >> we do uh endorse uh any any members of our audience trying to get uh trying to give tips on on Nicholas Maduro. >> Yes. Yes.
1:24:38
on that reward that we got to talk about.
1:24:41
>> Stop the narco trafficking.
1:24:41
Uh we also got to get on Finn.
1:24:44
AI the number one AI agent for customer service.
1:24:46
Number one in performance benchmarks, number one in competitive bake offs, number one ranking on G2.
1:24:51
Uh we also endorse chess which was on the uh on the OpenAI board earlier.
1:24:58
Joe Lee has a story here.
1:24:58
My friend was a chess grandmaster at 14.
1:25:01
By 15, government officials invited him to dinners and he was giving talks to thousands.
1:25:07
Every other type of of nerd has gotten their pop culture recognition except researchers.
1:25:11
We're lucky to live in an era where the weird nerd is celebrated.
1:25:15
Chess GMs post their moves on Instagram, and it's cool, not weird.
1:25:19
Tech founders are household names.
1:25:21
YouTubers get invited to the Met Gala.
1:25:23
Poker players have TV shows.
1:25:23
Gamers have become Twitch millionaires.
1:25:25
researchers get maybe two celebrity moments, winning their state fair at 10 and a Nobel at 70. Unless you're Demis. Demis got a Nobel. What? How old is Dennis? Uh he's not 70.
1:25:37
Uh beyond that, the people working on the world's most important problems are invisible to everyone outside their niche.
1:25:44
Demis, the founder of Deep Mind and the uh Nobel Prize winner, is 49 years old. Wow, what a run.
1:25:52
He's got another 50 years in front of him just researching easy.
1:25:57
>> Hopefully he's on she's timeline. 150. >> 150.
1:25:59
He could be he could be uh you know uh 20 years out from a midlife crisis. He could be at 75.
1:26:05
Uh does that mean how old is Cin >> because if he's going to live to 150 >> he's he's 72.
1:26:12
So in three years he'll be half at half life expectancy.
1:26:16
We should expect to see him picking up some sports cars >> maybe.
1:26:22
you know, uh, crashing a little bit, crashing out as a as a going through a midlife crisis at 75 >> if he's gonna maybe he decides, I don't want to be in the party anymore.
1:26:31
I want to do something else.
1:26:33
>> I want to I want to just be an entertainer.
1:26:34
Maybe I want to be a musician.
1:26:36
Maybe he turns into a DJ.
1:26:37
>> Or he wants to create a social network like Trump. >> Maybe. Maybe.
1:26:40
Uh, beyond that, the people working on the most important problems are invisible to everyone outside their niche.
1:26:46
Researchers are the final boss of nerd culture that we haven't figured out how to celebrate. Time to change that.
1:26:53
>> Tyler, >> what's your job?
1:26:55
>> What is he talking about? >> What? What? What? She uh Jolie. >> Oh, >> yes.
1:26:58
We We are We are We're >> celebrating.
1:27:01
>> We have We have figured out how to >> We celebrated so hard.
1:27:02
We had researchers emailing us saying, "Please take me off the medicine list.
1:27:06
I don't want the attention." >> Yes. Yes. It's obliged. And the traded cards.
1:27:11
We need to continue to celebrate the final bosses of nerd culture, the researchers.
1:27:16
>> I think they are being celebrated.
1:27:16
And I feel like in SF if you see um like if you see Ilia walking around >> Oh yeah.
1:27:23
>> It's the >> you're taking paparazzi photos of of him.
1:27:26
Uh >> people go to the the OpenAI that that cafe that Johnny and Sam were at. Yeah.
1:27:32
>> They're like, "Oh, I'm at the OpenAI cafe."
1:27:35
>> Give us an update on hype. tbpn. com. How's that going?
1:27:40
>> Well, the video completely flopped. >> It did.
1:27:42
Um, we the maybe the vibriel meta is off, maybe something is uh is is tricky.
1:27:49
We also it's very hard to to to draw attention to a URL in general.
1:27:53
But if you're interested uh in participating in our little questionnaire, where are we in the AI hype cycle? You can go to hype. tbpn. com.
1:28:06
Uh, and we have the full Gartner hype cycle there.
1:28:08
Starts with the innovation trigger.
1:28:10
trigger. So we should we should screen share this >> goes to the the peak of inflated expectations then of course the trough of disillusionment and finally the the plateau of productivity and uh Tyler has shared some of the results we're still
1:28:25
collecting results uh and the I believe that the uh the consensus estimate of where we are in the AI >> cycle hands up they're putting their hands >> up hands up they're I think they're So the yellow dot is where Tyler is just past the peak of inflated expectations. You're cooling off. Is that correct? You're cooling off. Is that correct? >> Yeah.
1:28:44
I mean, I >> justify what?
1:28:46
>> So, I I don't know if I'm exactly there.
1:28:47
I mean, that it's very rough.
1:28:47
I I would say I'm near the peak.
1:28:49
I don't know if I'm if I'm on the left or right side of the curve.
1:28:53
I don't know if we're going down yet. >> Okay. What about you, Jordan? Where are you?
1:28:58
>> You're not in the trough yet.
1:29:00
>> It's hard to be in the trough given all the good news.
1:29:02
The market's at an all-time high. Products are shipping.
1:29:06
Like, products are getting better.
1:29:06
I I I'm like effectively in where where the yellow dot is. >> Yeah. Just coming.
1:29:13
>> That doesn't mean things aren't hyped.
1:29:15
It's just people realize like, wait, it's just like better search, you know?
1:29:20
We don't have like >> There was I mean, if you were if you were following the Eleazar Udicowski crew, it was like >> in next year there's not going to be any jobs and you're going to be fighting for your life in a Terminator scenario, right?
1:29:34
It's like if I'm not holding a gun mowing down robots, I'm in the trough of disillusionment because that's where my expectations were. >> Yeah.
1:29:42
You can see the bulk is is basically where where my dot is just past the peak.
1:29:46
Um but you can see all the way on the left there there is one dot. >> Yes. Did you see this?
1:29:51
>> All the way on the left. So >> did you see this? I don't know.
1:29:52
Can we go full full screen on this? Yes.
1:29:53
So there is one person who says when when it comes to AI hype, we haven't even started yet. >> Okay.
1:30:01
So, I made a tweet about this and then friend of the show, Jacob Renamaki. >> Yes, >> that's him. >> That's him.
1:30:07
>> He's all the way on the left. He's all the way.
1:30:08
His rationality was basically, you know, >> no technology trigger yet. >> Yes.
1:30:12
>> We're we're at, you know, 1 10,000th of of um >> solar uh you know, usage of the sun. >> Okay. >> We're not even close.
1:30:19
I mean, we're like >> we're not even close to to what AI could be. >> Sure.
1:30:24
>> Um so, he's just mega agi pill. Oh, he is.
1:30:27
We're not even close to >> We're not even close to being until we have a Dyson started.
1:30:32
>> I mean, how can we be going down if we don't even have a Dyson sphere? >> That's a great take. I I love Jacob. He's so much fun.
1:30:36
Uh I also like that there's someone on there.
1:30:39
There's a few people that said, "Yeah, we are with the hype cycle's done.
1:30:42
I'm in the plateau of productivity. We went through it.
1:30:44
They experienced the full and I and I would love to know from those people.
1:30:49
Maybe we should have someone on the show or ask them to write out a little bit more of their rationale for where they are. Maybe that's in the V2.
1:30:54
Maybe that's in the V2. We could have put your point and then write a little free free text response on why you said that because for that person what is what is their hype cycle like obviously is the innovation trigger GPT1 is it
1:31:09
GPT3 is it chat GPT like the default assumption is probably innovation triggers chat GPT then peak of inflated >> transformer architecture maybe yeah maybe you go back further >> it's neural nets it's like that I think like GPTs are are probably a little bit higher on the curve. >> Yeah. So maybe maybe uh the trough of >> Yeah.
1:31:26
So maybe maybe uh the trough of disillusionment was like year five of open AI as a nonprofit and you're like yeah like they they okay they did okay against Dota but they haven't really created anything.
1:31:39
Uh I was so excited about this.
1:31:41
My in my expectations were inflated a year or two ago and now I'm really disappointed.
1:31:47
But now Chat GPT comes out.
1:31:49
Slope of enlightenment plateau of productivity is hey we're we're we're building in codecs.
1:31:52
we got clouded code, we got different products coming together, we're actually delivering value, then then they're in the plateau of productivity. I don't know.
1:32:02
>> Yeah, I I think in in that scenario, it's like early less wrong posts.
1:32:04
Those were the peak of inflated expectation.
1:32:08
You go down and then you see actual people.
1:32:10
>> Well, we we'll have to ask the folks who responded and if you want to uh play along, go to hype. tvpn.
1:32:14
com uh and uh vote for where you are in the AI hype cycle.
1:32:19
Um, one thing that's underhyped, customer relationship magic from Adio.
1:32:24
Adio is the AI native CRM that builds, scales, and grows your company to the next level.
1:32:28
You can get started for free.
1:32:29
And we have our first guest of the show coming in to the TBP and Ultradome from the Reream Waiting Room. >> Whoa, look at this. How you doing? >> Let's go.
1:32:42
>> We're hitting the gong for all you guys. >> The gong.
1:32:45
>> What's the news, folks? What's the news?
1:32:50
I'll bring the hardcore team out.
1:32:50
Uh we launched rocks toga G. >> Fantastic.
1:32:55
>> We crossed 25 million rocks revenue agents running in the global 2000. It's real.
1:33:02
There's real ROI and we're coming.
1:33:05
So we're ready for business and uh we're ready to go. >> Amazing. >> Fantastic. >> What else? Yeah. What what else?
1:33:11
Give give us the update since since the last time you were on.
1:33:14
Um we we came on February uh we will come back and launch uh we've we've landed obviously we still have RAM cognition and some of the biggest AI companies but we've landed the number one for kind of global 2000 in banking construction also Saudi Aramco >> we built a sales team which is amazing they're they're now kind of going head-to-head with some of the big incumbents >> so how are position the product.
1:33:46
Shouldn't you be dog fooding?
1:33:46
Why do you have salespeople? >> Exactly.
1:33:49
So, we ran up until recently without a sales team, but now we got to go for market share.
1:33:53
So, we have a small elite sales team uh who can go um basically work with boards who are rolling out kind of rocks revenue agents after they've coding agents.
1:34:03
So, every customers rolled out coding agents over the last year.
1:34:07
Now, now they're rolling out revenue agents and it's a game of market share and delivering ROI and and we're the fastest do it. >> Yeah. >> What's the Yeah.
1:34:16
What's the competitive dynamic like?
1:34:17
I I don't I don't know a bunch of other companies in in your guys' kind of like category broadly.
1:34:23
Meanwhile, because of how quickly coding agents have got to market.
1:34:26
I know I can name a bunch.
1:34:28
>> The big question is like seatbased versus consumptionbased.
1:34:29
This is the debate that a lot of people are having on the timeline these days, the SAS apocalypse or something.
1:34:34
Uh how are you thinking about pricing as a durable advantage against incumbents? >> Absolutely.
1:34:41
So our incumbents are obviously uh Salesforce. I saw the Karp episode. We're team Karp here.
1:34:45
Um >> we focus on time to value like we deliver ROI in 90 days instead of nine months.
1:34:53
Um we focus on pay for agent actions.
1:34:56
So the agents do work and customers only pay when the agents do work.
1:35:00
It's not seatbased pricing.
1:35:00
And the last is we do the palenteer style fullervice forward deployed model. Right?
1:35:06
So you don't need consultants and kind of professional services firms to implement the software.
1:35:10
We do the whole whole lot.
1:35:12
So competitive dynamics is boards want ROI in a quarter or two so that they can change the hiring plans for next year.
1:35:19
And we're just trying to basically pedal downhill and deliver kind of ROI fast.
1:35:23
And it's only possible because of the team like we can outship the market and have build product that that works. And um now is the time.
1:35:29
So um >> how big is the team today? >> I was about to ask. >> Yeah.
1:35:35
So uh kind of obviously competing with a multi,000 thousand employee organization.
1:35:41
So core applied AI is about 25 and and kind of field plus sales is about 10 more. So about 35 people. >> Wow. That's a crazy balance. I like that. That's great.
1:35:53
>> We try engineering as much as possible. >> Yeah.
1:35:55
And what what's the feedback cycle like from the sales folks that you have that are actually using the product?
1:35:59
I feel like are you hiring folks from product management into sales roles or vice versa or are there some product management skills that are uniquely useful?
1:36:12
>> It's a great question and one of our sales leaders is actually our pseudo PM.
1:36:16
So we have no PMs, no product managers, no project managers.
1:36:18
We have engineers who ship and then we have sales people who ship ship revenue.
1:36:21
Um so the feedback cycle is um once we land customers we are pretty much embedded with these c uh with these uh customers.
1:36:31
We have field engineers or deployed engineers they feed it back to all engineers and our engineers all everybody here they're all founders uh they're are customerf facing and they take all that signal and we try to ship in days.
1:36:42
So we ship multiple times a day we have major release every week >> and and that's kind of been the the flywheel.
1:36:48
What is the typical for deployed engineer process look like for your guys's product?
1:36:53
I imagine it it's not quite as complex as some of the uh buildouts that Palunteer is doing for different companies.
1:37:01
So is it down to like you need to land an engineer at a company for or or a small team for a couple weeks, a week, a few days?
1:37:09
What does that actually look like? >> Absolutely.
1:37:12
So we try to do ROI 90 days where the first three weeks is essentially set up.
1:37:16
So we don't do any core engineering out in the field.
1:37:18
So that's all done in San Francisco. Yeah.
1:37:22
What the our four department engineers do is deeply understand the domain.
1:37:24
So the number one global 2000 in the construction uh vertical is different than healthcare is different than u than kind of the military.
1:37:33
So we try to uh really understand the domain.
1:37:36
How do they do customer acquisition and success?
1:37:39
Encode that into our agents and then we actually build training content to reskill the whole orc. Right.
1:37:45
Our core mission if you remember is to to build agents that makes the best better and then reskill the rest to give them a path to be kind of AI native.
1:37:52
So that's kind of uh what our field is doing.
1:37:55
So supercharging and then reskilling.
1:37:59
>> Well, I feel like the opportunity cost of having everyone on your team stand behind you for this interview is is insane.
1:38:05
Uh we're going to hit the gong and let you get back to the important work that you do, but thank you so much for coming on TVN today.
1:38:11
Thank thanks for having us on and thanks for watching. We're all huge fans. Thank you.
1:38:17
>> Congrats on all the progress, guys. Super impressive. >> Cheers. >> Bye.
1:38:22
>> Let's go to this post on the timeline from Jerry Howell uh quoting the internet hippo.
1:38:27
It this this screenshot looks aged.
1:38:30
Have you seen this screenshot?
1:38:32
It looks like it's it looks like it's been screenshotted multiple times.
1:38:35
It it has like lore to it. It's vintage.
1:38:39
>> Uh the internet hippo says, "I stepped away from my computer for a moment.
1:38:40
When I returned, it was building something.
1:38:42
I did not ask it to do this.
1:38:45
We're not ready for what's coming.
1:38:49
>> Tyler, do you have any idea what this image is in reference to? >> I I don't know.
1:38:56
>> You've never seen that? Wow. Jordy, do you know what?
1:38:58
That's a >> screen saver, right?
1:39:00
>> Do you know like from what machine or what era? >> Not a Mac? >> No.
1:39:04
I believe it's like a Windows 95 screen saver.
1:39:07
Maybe Windows >> I just remember this like from like computer lab.
1:39:09
You remember school would have classes.
1:39:13
>> Imagine for sure that was actually underrated to just think that there used to class called >> for us it was computer lab. >> Yeah.
1:39:22
No, no, you learn how to type on the computer.
1:39:24
I you know you get your uh your your words per minute up.
1:39:26
Uh anyway, how did you sleep last night?
1:39:28
I actually put up the best rough you got me beat. I got like a 54. It was a rough night.
1:39:34
But if you want to get Whoa. 99.
1:39:38
Let's go play some sound effects for yourself. Go to eight asleep. com. Get a pod 5.
1:39:42
5-year warranty, 30 risk-f free trial, free returns, free shipping.
1:39:44
Um, we also have, >> you know what I did yesterday? >> Yes.
1:39:48
>> I reduced my caffeine intake by about 120 milligrams. >> Okay, that's good. Dialing back.
1:39:55
>> Definitely done something. >> Dialing it back. That's good.
1:39:56
Uh, well, we have Tony from Inest joining the stream.
1:40:00
He's in the reream waiting room. We'll bring him in. Welcome to the stream. How you doing? >> Welcome.
1:40:05
>> Hey, thank you so much for having me. How's it going? It's going great.
1:40:06
Uh, kick us off with just a brief introduction on yourself and then give us the news. >> Cool. Yeah.
1:40:13
Uh, I'm Tony, one of the founders and CEO of inest. com.
1:40:17
I'm here just to talk about our series A without submitter.
1:40:19
We uh, we closed the 21 mil round with them. Thanks. Thanks. >> Yeah.
1:40:25
Uh, they're great people.
1:40:25
Jamman's Jam's a really really smart guy >> and uh, we also had the follow on and the continued investment from Andre Notable and and a four, which is which is great.
1:40:34
So, um, yeah, fun times, you know. >> Love it.
1:40:37
Uh, Jordy, you want to hit that?
1:40:39
>> Let's talk about I I'll wait till the end.
1:40:41
>> Okay, we'll hit the gun.
1:40:42
>> Let's talk about, uh, what the company does. What are you guys up to? >> Yeah. Yeah.
1:40:46
So, we are we're we're an async execution platform, driven execution.
1:40:49
We, uh, we we allow you to build workflows as step functions.
1:40:54
>> Um, make it really, really easy so that you abstract all of the infrastructure.
1:40:57
Uh, essentially write a couple different things like step, step, step.
1:40:58
We make sure they execute durably.
1:41:01
um you can write any code in those step functions.
1:41:05
Um and a lot of people use this for AI and AI agents because uh turns out that you know that's a that's a really big thing as you've heard all the time. >> Yeah.
1:41:14
How did you pick the level of abstraction that you're operating at?
1:41:19
There's so many other like there's companies that they just do the inference or they just do fine-tuning or they or they go an even higher level and they sell a complete SAS solution with an agent wrapped in it.
1:41:28
Uh you're in this kind of in between zone.
1:41:30
uh how did you land there?
1:41:33
Do you see yourself moving up and or down the stack?
1:41:35
It feels like such a flexible time right now in the market. >> Yeah, super flexible. Super flexible.
1:41:40
Um maybe I'll talk about the origin stories and I'll talk about the um so I used to run engineering for a healthcare company and healthcare is like dude healthcare is so hard.
1:41:50
I would not recommend it.
1:41:51
Really nice to help people but the engineering is crazy. Super workflow driven.
1:41:55
Um and it would take months to build out what should take days.
1:41:57
you know, when a patient does this, if they don't do something in a certain amount of time, X, Y, and Z.
1:42:01
And so those are those are workflows.
1:42:03
Um, so we initially built the SDK to make it really easy for your product engineer that might be full stack to build these workflows without mocking around with infrastructure.
1:42:13
So you don't want to have to create workers.
1:42:15
You don't want to have to create cues.
1:42:16
You don't want to terraform new new things on CFKA.
1:42:17
You just want to write some code, deploy it in your existing codebase, and have it work basically in a minute.
1:42:23
And that like that level of abstraction is really key because I think if everyone has access to the same models and if everyone has access to the same sort of compute, what really matters now is how fast you can iterate on your product, how fast you can actually build the experiences on top of those models.
1:42:39
>> And it turns out that like yeah, you can build agents for other people, but this particular layer that that executes the AI that runs the workflows is really tough and you have to have it done right in order to iterate fast.
1:42:50
And so it's sort of this interesting sort of layer on top of the infrastructure that allows people to build and execute.
1:42:58
So um that was kind of always the plan.
1:43:03
>> I think like one of the things that we talked about is you know just infrastructureless infrastructure so that you can just write code, deploy it and have it work which is um sort of a I think like a modern version of what Terraform should be. >> Yeah.
1:43:16
What what categories of agents are you most bullish on today and over the next year? We just >> Yeah. Yeah.
1:43:24
>> Because because you know again on on the consumer agent side >> felt like deep research was the first breakout killer app consumer agent.
1:43:34
Before that everyone was excited about agents but weren't necessarily >> daily even weekly active users of a lot of them. >> Yeah.
1:43:41
It's interesting and you were just talking about with with the with the person number four, you know, like the whole stuff, >> right? Right.
1:43:47
Forward deployed stuff and you see a lot of like support I think like for the day-to-day things that everyone uses internally, you know, like it's kind of the the stuff that you're all probably using dayto-day cla that sort of stuff is like killer, you know. I use it for tests.
1:44:00
It doesn't do distributed systems well enough for us right now, but um it's pretty it's pretty good.
1:44:05
Um, and then like in the future, you know, I think it's really interesting to see people craft experiences inside their own products.
1:44:12
Um, you know, like Decagon and whatnot have done that for support for some time, which is super interesting.
1:44:15
And I'm really really curious where we go with context engineering and how people can build their own custom agents which are essentially workflows.
1:44:25
>> So I like day-to-day for sure the average the average ones that people are using, but like you take Nano Banana, you throw that in a workflow and you have this really sick agent experience on top of that.
1:44:34
It's like it's pretty good.
1:44:35
The world is changing pretty fast and it feels like everything will end up becoming this which is craziness.
1:44:42
>> Uh how does how's Soundcloud using this?
1:44:44
I think that's an interesting case study you have there.
1:44:46
I'd love to understand more about how a company that just does you know I think of it as like a music player library of music.
1:44:52
Uh like like what's their strategy? >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, uh music is tough.
1:45:00
Uh it turns out that every industry has a lot of depth that you wouldn't realize when you go into it, you know.
1:45:02
um everything from like making sure that there's no um I guess piracy, making sure that there's no terrorism, making sure that if people want to produce their albums and send it out to Spotify, iTunes, that entire music distribution is also kind of insane.
1:45:17
>> Um it requires a lot of workflows too.
1:45:20
So there's a lot of stuff that you have to do to operationalize music, either distribution, production, content.
1:45:23
Um and essentially they were trying to hack together this for for 9 months.
1:45:28
Um, the CTO at the time found us somehow and he had a lot of stuff up and running within a week.
1:45:38
>> Um, and their time to production was like insane from like 9 months to 1 week.
1:45:41
They ended up pushing us out to production relatively quickly within like the first few months.
1:45:45
And uh I think I think they were live in maybe maybe like the first 6 weeks.
1:45:48
Um, so they use this for a ton of their stuff.
1:45:52
I think they just shipped the ability to create vinyls for your own music that you upload to Spotify.
1:45:57
Wait, like physical vinyls? >> Like physical vinyls. Yeah. Yeah.
1:46:01
>> Like the gong for physical. >> Yeah. >> I want some. >> Great hit, Jordy.
1:46:08
>> We need We've been looking to make vinyl.
1:46:10
>> We want to crash the show onto vinyl.
1:46:10
Of course, >> we we've had people reach out and complain that they they want to listen to the show every day, but they only listen to audio.
1:46:18
>> They've listened to the whole catalog, but they want to listen at the highest possible fidelity.
1:46:22
>> Do you remember Do you remember there was that Stripe thing?
1:46:23
They made that physical magazine back in the day.
1:46:28
>> I don't know if you actually >> like with paper.
1:46:31
>> Yeah, it was like a physical magazine.
1:46:33
This was from Stripe, the payments company. >> Wow. I know. I somehow missed this. I I know press the book. They are print maxis.
1:46:41
>> Um I I got to get a copy of that.
1:46:41
That that probably trades at a premium probably.
1:46:45
Uh in in the m it should be in the business hall of fame, the business uh museum.
1:46:48
Uh that Yeah, that Yeah, that's fantastic.
1:46:51
Uh well, we don't want to keep you too much longer.
1:46:53
Thank you so much for hopping on the stream. Congrats on the round. We'll see you at the B.
1:46:58
>> Say hello to all the folks in Altimeter. We'll talk to you soon. >> Cheers. >> Bye. >> Okay, bye.
1:47:03
>> Uh, let me tell you about adquick. com.
1:47:05
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1:47:06
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1:47:12
Uh, EMTT Shear has a post.
1:47:15
The way that chat GBT and Claude etc.
1:47:17
are all trying to be the portal for the entire internet reminds me a good deal of the first internet boom in Yahoo.
1:47:24
I think the ultimate winners will wind up specialized just like last time.
1:47:29
Shopping, entertainment, search.
1:47:29
So he's thinking Amazon, Netflix, Google, and we'll have similar breakouts. It's interesting.
1:47:38
I don't know that I completely like >> and this comment kind of puts him in the truth zone.
1:47:42
To be fair, Google Dwayne says control alt Dwayne says to be fair, Google did become the portal for the entire internet.
1:47:49
Yahoo tried, but Google executed better.
1:47:51
Chat GPT has already won for the moment, but whether they're the next Google or Yahoo AI remains to be seen.
1:47:57
They're doing a lot of things right.
1:47:59
>> Yeah, I I I wonder how much consumer AI or like >> EMTT fires back to just to to close it out.
1:48:07
Google's not a YouTube Yahoo style portal.
1:48:08
They are still way behind on shopping versus specialists, for example.
1:48:11
layer search first and foremost >> and then also have extended into portfolio of adjacencies.
1:48:15
It's not one interface to everything though. >> Yeah, I don't know.
1:48:19
I I I do I do wonder how the consumer AI apps will fragment.
1:48:26
Um we're obviously going to talk to the metapholics about personalized super intelligence and um we saw this chart that went up just recently about how people actually use chatpt and there are some pretty clear buckets like there are there are different people using different uh modes of chatpt uh from practical guidance tutoring teaching seeking information was 21% of searches uh writing was 28% uh multimedia creating an image. Uh that was 6%.
1:48:57
And so you could imagine some of those getting peeled off and kind of becoming their own their own uh their own apps that are highly specialized.
1:49:06
I tend to believe in aggregation and um like Ben Thompson has this point about uh Google.
1:49:15
There was a moment when everyone was saying Google's cooked because of vertical search.
1:49:18
So there's going to be Yelp for restaurants.
1:49:20
It's the Google of restaurants.
1:49:22
They will do it better than Google can.
1:49:23
Yeah, >> there will be travel sites, there will be mapping sites, there will be different sites for searching specific things that people will remember to go to.
1:49:32
And Google really did change their entire model.
1:49:34
They adapted, they improvised, they overcame and ultimately damaged by vertical search.
1:49:42
>> The question I mean uh you have to kind of ask yourself how bullish you are in agents, right?
1:49:47
Because historically, you would search something in Google and then you'd go to a standalone.
1:49:50
Maybe you'd go to a website or an application.
1:49:54
>> Yet, there's a lot of websites and applications that I only maybe use once in my life, once a year. Do I actually want it?
1:50:02
Do I do I uh >> I' oftentimes I' I'd prefer to have an agent, for example, like book me a hotel, right?
1:50:09
These are classic examples.
1:50:11
>> And so, I think that I think the paradigm is is shifting.
1:50:12
Uh, but without further ado, we have Tor, >> our next guest, >> Gusto, coming in >> from the ream waiting room. Welcome, Tor. How you doing? >> Good. How you doing, guys?
1:50:24
We're great for having me.
1:50:27
>> Thanks so much for >> I'm such a huge fan because I went through YC in 2012.
1:50:30
I believe you were in the 2013 batch. Correct.
1:50:35
>> We were in winter 2012. Yeah. >> Oh, winter.
1:50:37
So, is that I think winter at that point was after summer or maybe just before.
1:50:42
>> It's usually after summer. It is Mar.
1:50:46
>> Yeah, it usually does come after someone.
1:50:49
>> But but I remember that I was running I we the first the first payroll we ran for our YC company was just uh literally a $5,000 wire like from one account to the next.
1:51:02
And we were like yeah like uh everyone needs to figure out what to do with the taxes.
1:51:06
And then we got on Gusto which was then I believe Zen Payroll, right? >> That's right.
1:51:11
and uh and it and it solved a ton of stuff and it was it was amazing experience and uh yeah Jordy and I have been using Gusto for a long time since um big uh big launch today.
1:51:23
>> Yeah, take us through it. >> Thank you. Yeah. Yeah.
1:51:24
Well, very very excited to be here.
1:51:27
I'm also a big fan of yours in fact. >> No way. >> There we go. >> There we go. Thank you. That's fantastic.
1:51:35
And sorry, I need to stop you for a second before we get into lunch. Where are you?
1:51:38
The the office behind you is teaming. Is this just your H?
1:51:41
>> This is the same place that Josh was calling him from. >> It's remarkable. >> Yeah, >> thanks.
1:51:45
Yeah, we're in Pier 70 in San Francisco.
1:51:47
We actually have our office here >> right next to the YC >> right in front of YC. Exactly.
1:51:52
Um and today actually we have this uh showcase uh conference.
1:51:56
Uh we're doing it for the first time live.
1:51:58
Uh and it's really really cool because you have hundreds of small businesses here, accountants who are all coming in and we're um unveiling a bunch of new products uh to them.
1:52:06
Um, so you know, we have showcases uh twice a year.
1:52:11
We've been doing it for a while.
1:52:12
It's kind of our big big two product moments of the year, telling the world about all the new stuff you can do with Gusto.
1:52:17
We started with payroll, expanded to benefit.
1:52:19
We, you know, announced a couple weeks ago about the guidelines, acquisition, uh, pending approval. Yep.
1:52:26
>> And, uh, you know, all the different things that we've been doing over the year, time tracking, HR, um, and you know, tax credits, compliance, and and other things.
1:52:33
But yeah, today we're launching a bunch of really really important um uh functionality around cash flow.
1:52:40
>> So you know when I speak with small businesses often what I hear is that that you know in the context of gusto is that the hardest thing that where they get frustrated the most and feel like most anxious and kind of unhappy is when they can't make payroll for their employees.
1:52:53
They don't have enough money in their bank account. Right.
1:52:55
And when you you dig into it and learn why and what's going on exactly, it's not that they don't make enough money as a business. the business is growing.
1:53:03
They're doing really well.
1:53:03
They're doing better than ever. So, how can that be? Right?
1:53:06
And it's all about cash flow.
1:53:08
It's all about this tricky thing of like when does money come in and when money goes out.
1:53:12
So, often, you know, think about like I talk with a customer who's like a um you know, they they do like equipment for um um you know, different uh you know, conferences and things like that, right?
1:53:23
Like uh you know, lighting and AV equipment and stuff like that. So, guess what?
1:53:27
they need to buy the equipment and buy the stuff before the event and they get paid 30 to 60 days after the event, right?
1:53:33
So, you have all this money going out, you payroll going out, all these expenses going out or you didn't get paid yet.
1:53:38
And this is like not a random like one-off story like this happens all the freaking time for small businesses.
1:53:44
Um, you know, and and that's true like for consultants that work before get paid and many other type of businesses.
1:53:50
So, um, that's what this showcase is about.
1:53:52
I'm really happy to share more about like, you know, this the features functionalities.
1:53:54
No, I I we're one of the few shows on earth that actually want to understand. >> I'm super interested.
1:53:59
I have like we've run businesses our whole life.
1:54:02
I've been in that position, you know, early on with my first business where it's just like, oh, like, you know, totally.
1:54:08
>> It's like every two weeks it's like, you know, public companies, they got the quarterly reporting.
1:54:13
Maybe maybe it's going to switch to every six months soon, but with a with a with a small business, you know, it's like every every couple weeks, it's like that crazy.
1:54:21
So, I mean, where where I want to start is like this sounds like you're going to be lending money or bridging on a short-term basis with small businesses who are on the platform.
1:54:30
Uh, where does the money come from?
1:54:33
I feel like when we usually hear about uh a fintech company or a or businessto business company starting to offer some sort of credit like product, uh, we usually hear, oh, well, they they have a facility on the other side.
1:54:46
They raised money for this.
1:54:48
They're not maybe funding it off their balance sheet.
1:54:50
like what structurally how does the the money flow to the actual customer? >> Yeah, exactly.
1:54:56
That's that's a really really great question.
1:54:57
So, listen, there's a few kind of products here that come together in order to get people to have better cash flow so they they're they're not late for their payroll.
1:55:04
One is just like a set of functionalities about making faster payroll.
1:55:08
So, payroll, if you remember, often people need to run like the the historical standard is four days. Yeah.
1:55:14
So, you run the payroll on Tuesday for people to get paid on Friday.
1:55:17
Well, that's four days of cash that could could be in your bank account and that makes a really big difference because payroll is often the biggest um expense that customers that you know small businesses have.
1:55:25
So, you know, we we're launching next day payroll.
1:55:30
>> Um we're we're launching uh same day payroll and we're also launching instant payroll.
1:55:34
So, these are three new products all about making sure you have enough money in bank account till the last moment.
1:55:38
Um so, that's >> how do you actually how do you actually do that?
1:55:41
Because payroll companies forever have loved probably loved to say like people ask can you make it instant?
1:55:47
and they say ah it's not possible. >> Yeah.
1:55:49
And we've heard like oh it's the AC system, it's the government regulation. What's the unlock? >> Exactly. Okay.
1:55:55
So so for these set of products it's all about actually our relationship with the bank.
1:55:59
So you know the nice thing about being on one side we're a tech company. We're still a startup.
1:56:04
We look at at ourselves as a startup but on the other side we've been around for 12 13 years now.
1:56:06
Uh over 400,000 small businesses use Gusto every day.
1:56:12
Um and you know I knew you'd do that. I love it. I love it.
1:56:15
I want a gong, too, today. Oh, >> yeah.
1:56:19
You know, tell me when the gong is coming.
1:56:21
Um, but yeah, over 400,000 small businesses use our product every day.
1:56:26
And, you know, with that scale, we now have the ability to work with each and individual bank and um um kind of create partnerships.
1:56:32
So, in the end of the day, we're actually not taking uh credit risk uh on it and and it just uses the, you know, the kind of some of the newer rail rails that banks have.
1:56:40
I can't go into all the specifics, but let's say this is not like us.
1:56:44
We didn't need to raise any money for this, >> but it's a technological solution, which is exactly what you want.
1:56:48
You don't want just like, oh wow, now we have this great uh massive liability that's growing on the balance sheet forever.
1:56:56
>> No, that's not There is one thing though.
1:56:58
>> There is one thing though, which is a payroll bridge.
1:56:59
payroll bridge. So, Payroll Bridge is um a different product and that's like um not about making payroll faster, but that's like even if you if you still don't have the money in your bank account even on payday and you still
1:57:10
need um uh somebody to finance that that payroll, we can come in and help uh >> or maybe even just a piece of it because it's totally possible that I have a $100,000 in payroll going out, but I'm just 10k short and I don't want to hold up everyone. Um and so I could maybe
1:57:22
Um and so I could maybe take a smaller amount. >> Exactly. Yeah.
1:57:26
So, so um um that happens more often than you would think.
1:57:30
You know, again, it's that kind of cash coming in, cash going out.
1:57:33
So, uh we partner with a company called Paraffin um as an embedded um um partner um who's helping us with the loans here.
1:57:41
So, what happens here is again as a customer, you come in uh to run payroll.
1:57:45
Let's say it's a Friday, you need to pay instant payroll on Friday and then oh gosh, I'm missing 10K, I'm missing $20,000, $50,000, whatever that is.
1:57:52
$50,000, whatever that is. um you know u with our partnership with paraffin we take a look at all your history and we figure out like hey can we help you um kind of basically make that payroll on us um and then you're going to pay us later on so that that's kind of that uh piece and I think you know honestly it's
1:58:07
the biggest biggest pain point in the world of payroll it's funny like we've been doing it for 12 years you would think like oh you've already innovated in everything around payroll there's nothing else coming in that's not true even 12 years later there's more kind of basic payroll stuff um we're also doing
1:58:20
it on the international payments by the way that's another um fast payroll um uh faster international contract store payments using stablecoin as again now techn technology that is available now it was not available when we started >> what percentage of of the businesses on gusto do you think are like I'm sure you
1:58:38
looked at the data right there would have been opportunities to to launch this feature you could have launched this a while ago I'm sure you guys wanted to wait until there was regulatory clarity on stable coins but was this something that customers were asking for because it's one of those things that that is it's it's helpful. I
1:58:53
I mean, it's helpful to both sides.
1:58:56
Like the freelancer benefits cuz like they're like, "Okay, I got when the person hit pay, I got paid.
1:59:01
I don't have to wait for, you know, it's it's ends up being more than 4 days.
1:59:05
It can be longer than that."
1:59:07
And the companies too historically would just be using these like, you know, random either like dedicated international payroll platforms or um you know, special freelancer payments platforms, things like that. Yeah.
1:59:22
So totally I think you know there the past couple years again there's new technology so we can we can use now and that's both on the banking side domestically as well as on the stable coin side.
1:59:31
Um that's why we're able to do it today.
1:59:33
It takes time until you you know we work with these partners and often we're the biggest um uh kind of partner they work with.
1:59:39
And the reason is, you know, you may have a bunch of startups, technology fintech companies that are using um stable coin payments or using, you know, kind of instant payments uh through banks, but they usually have small amounts.
1:59:50
Payroll is huge amounts, right?
1:59:53
Tens of thousands of dollars um sometimes millions of dollars per transaction.
1:59:56
So, you know, you really a lot of these um kind of protocols, fintech protocols when they come out, they have like a maximum limit.
2:00:04
So, we need to kind of work with the providers and um get there.
2:00:06
And then, yeah, you're right about the compliance side of it.
2:00:08
compliance side of it. like you know we we work really really closely to figure out that you know one of the things that we do is is um you know I think that was a little buzzword before you know AI came in and like took away all the buzzwords um but uh compliance uh compliance technology you know so
2:00:23
there's financial technology fintech compliance technology um and in that world you know that's kind of what we do every single day we think about how do we take all the compliance worries uh and anxiety that small businesses have that they don't want IRS knocking on their doors um and then help them you know kind of figure out all the compliance for them. There's a couple
2:00:40
There's a couple more features that I wanted to talk about.
2:00:42
So, one is um um just Gusto money.
2:00:46
>> Uh it's a new platform. It's a new area for us.
2:00:49
You know, when you think about Gusto, you always think about people, right?
2:00:51
Pay your people, onboard your people, benefits, all that stuff.
2:00:53
Uh Gusto money is us entering and expanding into a new world.
2:00:57
So, that's the world just just really focus on cash flow.
2:00:59
Um so, you know, one of the things when we talk with customers is like, hey, you know, I get paid so much later.
2:01:04
know, I get paid so much later. wouldn't be like can you help me get paid faster or you know when I pay my bills like oh gosh that takes you know that you know they need to be paid immediately can you delay that payment for me and that's why we brought in uh invoice payments as well as like bill pay into Gusto and we're going to keep investing in that area because it's all connected you know
2:01:24
payroll is your largest expenses but you have a bunch of other expenses in the business so if you bring it all together to one platform I I think that we can really really help people with that big anxiety around um not having enough money to run payroll and and kind of to run their Does that change uh are a lot of these different uh products feel like they might have different underlying economics? Do you think that the like
2:01:44
Do you think that the like the structure of the economic model of gusto is going to change over the next few years or is this sort of like purely additive like how are you going to think about actually underwriting like the core business?
2:01:58
Uh I don't know what your plans are for the future but uh it does feel like some of these are are you know uh exchange fees or interest rate based or volume based others might be seatbased.
2:02:10
There's a variety of different financial models or economic models.
2:02:14
Is any of that changing like the overall structure of where you think the business will be driving value in a few years? >> Yeah.
2:02:21
Yeah, that's a great question.
2:02:21
I think for us, you know, I would say number one, we're really really focusing on um understanding what are the biggest pain points for business for small businesses and figure out how we can help them.
2:02:32
Now, sometimes it means, you know, business models uh for different products are different and we're okay with that.
2:02:38
>> However, if you still zoom out at Gusto and you look at Gusto as a product and where we're going, >> by far like really our our majority of what we do is uh in terms of business model is software.
2:02:47
Software as a service, you pay per employee, you pay for services. um very high margins.
2:02:50
This is not like a uh like a fintech sort of um you know play.
2:02:56
Um and as you notice we're using a lot of partners um on the embedded side um when we do things uh and you know that that are those type of kind of fintech businesses and we really obsess and focus on the user experience to make sure that for the customer they don't feel like they're being >> moved from one you know one system to another.
2:03:15
It's all behind the scenes. It's all API.
2:03:16
So for you it's just one service. It's gusto.
2:03:18
Um but um you know that's kind of the core of what we do.
2:03:22
We're really really um focused and and are really strong on the user experience side um for small businesses. >> Great.
2:03:27
What's the most exciting thing in tech to you outside of payroll >> in technology at all? Um let's see.
2:03:33
You know I I know >> and it's okay to say that that your your eyes never stray and that it's payroll compliance >> compliance. Payroll compliance. >> I love compliance.
2:03:45
Listen, I love compliance every single day.
2:03:47
That's what I'm living and breathing.
2:03:49
Um, and you know, but jokes aside, like the truth is that when you talk with customers, um, this is not a cerebral sort of like analytical kind of um, question and like, you know, world for them like for them it's it's missing Friday night with their kids because of this sort of stuff, right?
2:04:07
For them, it's like, you know, the pain of, you know, the embarrassment of like needing to to call every single employee telling them they got they can't make payroll on time.
2:04:13
I mean they're on the employee on the other side sometimes you know u you know needing to manage all of that what that means to your family.
2:04:20
So you know for me it's you know I love technology I live and breathe technology every day.
2:04:23
I love your show that always keeps me up to date to what's going on uh in in the world of tech.
2:04:28
But you know I think the the biggest connection for me and the thing that gets me going is that um customer u painpoint and see what software can do to help them. >> Yeah that's great. Fantastic. Amazing.
2:04:40
>> Well hey I want you guys to come in here next time though.
2:04:42
By the way, we have we have the again the showcase uh here.
2:04:43
It would be really cool in six fun when we do the next one.
2:04:48
It'll be cool to have like a live live performance here from Glasto.
2:04:52
>> How many people are there?
2:04:53
>> How many people there?
2:04:54
>> Let's ring the gong for the total attendees. How many?
2:04:56
>> Oh, I think there's around around hundreds of small businesses.
2:05:01
All right, we got >> that's a lot of small businesses to come to. Hey, you love it. >> Great to see you. >> Congratulations.
2:05:07
Thanks so much for hopping on the show.
2:05:10
>> We'll talk to you soon, Summer. Have a good one. >> Great to see you. >> Bye. >> And let's go.
2:05:16
>> We No one loves software for small businesses more than more than me. >> I don't think so. >> I don't think so. >> Don't go.
2:05:24
>> Uh Daniel Tenerero says, "The core political divide today is pickleball Americans versus letter boxed Americans."
2:05:31
>> I would I'm I'm in neither camp.
2:05:31
I don't really participate in either, but I would put myself in the letterboxed American camp.
2:05:38
>> Uh Tyler over there is a pickleball American, right?
2:05:40
I guess, but I'm also I I would say I'm more of like a cinnaphile than a pickle ball player. Okay.
2:05:45
>> But I've never used Letter Box.
2:05:47
>> You've never used Letter Box.
2:05:48
>> It's just like a It's like Good Reads for movies.
2:05:50
>> Yeah, it's good readads for movies.
2:05:50
I feel like there's an underated Tiny snapped this up. >> Oh, Tiny owns it.
2:05:56
>> They bought a cent stake. >> Whoa. I had no idea. That's fascinating.
2:06:00
Um well, uh the uh Antichrist lecture is in full swing up in San Francisco.
2:06:04
The the private >> Did they find the guy yet? >> Did they find him?
2:06:09
The hunt for the antichrist continues.
2:06:11
Uh, and it has spawned a ton of uh, fun posts on the timeline.
2:06:16
Uh, Pablo Penish says, "Perito Teal talked about this at the Antichrist lecture." No, he didn't.
2:06:21
Did you attend the lecture? No. Did you? No.
2:06:23
Just people me Daniel uh, Growing Daniel says Peter Teal announced the name of the Antichrist, but I'm not telling.
2:06:31
And, uh, people are having a lot of fun.
2:06:34
Will I just said that >> it's crazy.
2:06:36
I saw some of the protesters showed up like disguised as Satan.
2:06:42
>> I I needed to put some of the protesters in the truth zone because one of the protesters said Peter Teal's latest acquisition, the US government.
2:06:48
And if you know anything about PT, he doesn't buy whole companies.
2:06:52
He believes in founder firms.
2:06:55
He doesn't do private equity deals.
2:06:57
So, little bit of a little bit of a misunderstanding of the financial markets there, protester.
2:07:03
Anyway, Tyler, uh, are you bummed that you're missing out on the Antichrist lecture series?
2:07:08
>> I was just gonna say the protesters are like pretty hilarious.
2:07:10
Some of the signs I I sent them in the >> So, the the protesters, it's easy to get riled up by the by the images of the protesters and see the protesters as like this like, oh, they're really over the top.
2:07:21
They must really be aggressive.
2:07:23
Um, but for the most part, like I've seen there were protesters at just some random FAI conference I spoke at.
2:07:26
I actually interviewed Alex Wang there, who we're talking to tomorrow. tune in.
2:07:33
Um, and uh, this is just like Foundation for American Innovation, like a very vanilla tech conference.
2:07:39
Um, and uh, >> so being able to protest things is important. >> Yeah.
2:07:45
And so the protester was outside with a funny sign, but people were taking photos with each other.
2:07:49
Like it it was very very friendly.
2:07:50
I I when I first heard like, "Oh, we're being protested," I was like, "Oh, what what does this mean? Is this like serious?
2:07:56
Are they going to be really >> I was going to be protesting outside of gusto if you didn't roll out instant payroll. >> For sure. For sure.
2:08:02
Uh anyway, we have our next guest in the reream waiting room.
2:08:06
We have Andre from console. Welcome to the room. How you doing? >> Hey guys, doing good. How are you?
2:08:14
>> Thanks so much for joining.
2:08:14
Uh kick us off with a little bit of an introduction on yourself, what you do, what the announcement is. >> Sure.
2:08:20
Thank thank you for having me. Uh big fans here.
2:08:22
I actually got the whole team.
2:08:24
I don't know if you can see them kind of watching. I'm watching.
2:08:28
>> Hey, turn around guys. We can see you.
2:08:29
There's a little bit of a time delay. Say hello.
2:08:33
>> There's some delay maybe. >> Yeah.
2:08:35
So, um yeah, I mean today we're here to kind of, you know, talking about uh series A announcement.
2:08:40
We just uh there a little delay. >> What you got?
2:08:45
>> Um we just raised our series A uh DST Global and Thrive Capital. Uh oh.
2:08:51
>> How much how much you raised? >> $23 million. There you go. There you go. >> Congratulations. >> All right. All right. What do you do? What do you do? I got to know. You got to tell us. Yeah.
2:09:05
>> I'm not going to tell you.
2:09:06
>> Stop burying the lead. Stop burying the lead. Tell us what you do. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
2:09:11
So, uh, we automate IT support using AI agents that understand how your organization works. >> Fantastic. >> Um, I know.
2:09:17
Uh, so we're not just a chatbot, you know, under the hood.
2:09:20
We're basically plugged into all your systems, your apps, your devices.
2:09:24
We understand how everything's laid out.
2:09:25
So, we know, you know, this is this is John.
2:09:27
This is his title, department manager, the direct reports, the apps he has access to, the permissions in those apps.
2:09:31
So, like all this data is flowing into console from all these different systems.
2:09:36
And then we let you uh build company policy and processes above that layer uh in natural language.
2:09:41
So, we call these things playbooks.
2:09:43
Um but essentially you're able to say you know when someone needs a password reset first ask them this question then run this action and then do this thing.
2:09:51
So that's not converted to code.
2:09:53
It's just natural language instructions uploads the agent just handles that directly in Slack.
2:09:58
>> How modern is the wheelhouse customer for you?
2:10:01
Because I when I started my first company in 2012 uh we were late enough in the roll out of SAS that we had no on premise servers whatsoever. We had no local network.
2:10:13
We just had, you know, Google cloud apps and Gmail accounts and so everything was was mana man managed in in various dashboards and it was an immense hassle to deprovision and provision.
2:10:25
Um, but there is a whole other world of companies that have much more complex IT policies.
2:10:30
Uh, where are you seeing the most value?
2:10:32
What does the wheelhouse customer look like? Yeah.
2:10:34
So we we've started with the kind of more like modern tech companies to get started.
2:10:42
So a lot of our customers you ramp actually one of our customers. Uh there you go.
2:10:47
Uh um you know shout out to them.
2:10:50
They're a great customer.
2:10:50
Uh scale flock safety web flow.
2:10:51
These are all customers that are you know they're kind of like internally looking >> to you.
2:10:58
They're starting to think about what does it look like? What does it look like? >> Yeah.
2:11:03
>> In the age of AI, right?
2:11:03
>> In the age of AI, right? And I think kind of what happened was we got it right in the 70s the '8s right where computers started being a thing and you know it was really this uh department that was coming in and showing people like look get off your typewriters here's how computers work here's how you can be more efficient and they were like
2:11:20
kind of optimizing business process and somewhere along the way kind of like you mentioned right we started adding too many apps and too many there too many things that were being kind of managed right and uh you know it kind of lost focus from being this kind of driver of innovation in the organization to just like stuck in, you know, they're like on this ticket treadmill, right? You come
2:11:40
You come in, you've got 10 tickets, you log out, you've got 15.
2:11:44
So, you you're kind of just like always just handling tickets.
2:11:48
And so our kind of mission here is you know how do we take it back to where it was where you know take it take off the support load from them handle all of those tickets for them using AI that again works the way they do and then get get them back to you know working with other teams and finding ways to like optimize their their process essentially.
2:12:09
>> How does security fit into all this?
2:12:09
I feel like the the this the IT professional is very much the unsung hero, the enemy of the fisherman, the the fishing scams.
2:12:19
Uh I mean, every place I've worked that's like professional or had a professional email, you get these fishing scams and I feel like Sherlock Holmes when I clock it and send it to the IT guy, hey, we're getting a fishing scam.
2:12:30
And he's like, I set that up. I sent that to you. I was testing you. It was a test.
2:12:33
Uh but yeah, talk to me about security and how that fits in.
2:12:37
It feels like I really don't want my IT professional to be able to be prompt injected.
2:12:42
There needs to be a human in the loop still maybe.
2:12:44
But maybe you know something else. >> Yeah.
2:12:47
So um yeah, I guess you you hit on a couple things.
2:12:50
So but first we uh obviously spent a lot of time internally on security making sure things work really well.
2:12:56
This is my second company.
2:12:58
First company we were doing application security uh company we're selling to US government Fortune 100.
2:13:02
very familiar with, you know, building secure software.
2:13:06
And um uh so that's like the first thing I think, you know, next we think about well, how do we actually kind of like give the LLM and the AI agent control over the process and like the order that things get done and like kind of like, you know, this this ability to flex with the user and work with the user, but then build more deterministic processes for things like API calls and actually, you know, the things that are more sensitive, right?
2:13:32
And so our sensitive actions are actually quite locked down and you have the ability to, you know, get approvals on them, do MFA checks, um, you know, honestly just lock them down.
2:13:39
Some companies say, "Hey, we don't want to reset any passwords with console, right?"
2:13:44
Like we just don't have to, right?
2:13:46
Um, so you can kind of adopt it as you're comfortable.
2:13:48
Um, and then lastly, yeah, if if if you don't support, you know, let's say password resets, your your company, you decide that's too risky, um, we will loop in a human when those requests come through.
2:13:59
So the way you know the way kind of console works high level is we sit in Slack um instead of having to go to you know like a Jira ticket form or something and you have to fill out you know the subject line and then you're answering you know the laptop you have and you're like shouldn't it already know what laptop I have um and you're kind of just going through this list and you hit it and you wait for wait for some response.
2:14:17
You go into console you type in your issue just like you're messaging a coworker that request goes in 50 to 60% of the time we handle it entirely with the end user and then when we can't we actually loop a human in.
2:14:26
we can't we actually loop a human in. So on the back end we'll you know basically message them and say hey like you know John is having this issue here's everything you need to know about John and they can jump in and then the end user stays in Slack right they don't have to go to a separate portal or anything like that
2:14:41
>> makes sense what's the go to market >> did you share did you share any numbers related to the fund raise outside of the headline number anything uh on on the business side >> are we stay I don't know that we're sharing too much yet uh we're doing really well uh so we are hiring watching that sign that the company's ripping, >> you know, give it give it away. >> The the number that I got uh like kind
2:15:02
>> The the number that I got uh like kind of off the record, but I'll share is uh is one and that's uh and then and that's uh contracts with ramp.
2:15:10
So that's the really the headline KPI.
2:15:14
>> Uh it's more of a binary metric for success, but uh it's the really the only metric of success that matters in Silicon Valley these days.
2:15:21
Uh so congrats on on passing that binary test.
2:15:25
Uh talk to me about the go to market.
2:15:25
uh based on the size of customer, I'm super interested to know is this like steak dinners, handtohand combat, phone calls, you know, uh just direct response, are you G2 hacking? What's going on?
2:15:40
>> I mean, we are very flexible.
2:15:40
We'll do what it takes, right?
2:15:42
Um I think um the the standard process is actually you know we'll connect with some you know some folks um you know someone on the IT team uh usually some you know head of head of IT director of IT um and we'll give them a demo usually they have some AI initiative internally where they're you know looking at again how do we make it more efficient or or kind of like rethink how we do this.
2:16:04
Um we do a demo usually they're sold we do a P right after that.
2:16:09
So to get into a PC, we do like an on-prem, sorry, we do like a full full product deploy into their systems.
2:16:15
We'll do things like, you know, company uh security review, legal, um whatever. Then we'll go live.
2:16:22
Uh about 3 weeks is usually how long we do like a PC for.
2:16:24
So usually within the first week, what we like to say is you're actually in a good enough spot to go live companywide. >> Sure.
2:16:33
>> We spend the rest two weeks just kind of like dialing it in.
2:16:35
Um, but we go live pretty ver pretty pretty quickly.
2:16:37
I think scale actually went live in about three weeks um during the P uh companywide uh because they were just seeing so much success with it.
2:16:46
>> Are you positioning the product as like purely additive to the existing IT systems, plug in with everything?
2:16:50
Are you seeing folks rip out uh legacy systems that they maybe develop themselves or legacy competitors?
2:16:56
What's the what is the trade-off that the buyer is making at the moment?
2:17:04
Yeah, shouldn't be any trade-off.
2:17:04
Uh we our goal when we started the company was like, look, you're already managing a bunch of systems.
2:17:11
If we come in and we say, well, if you want to use console, you want to use AI, you have to replace half your systems, like that's just going to be a non-starter for really busy teams.
2:17:19
And so what we do instead is we actually build really deep integrations into, you know, as much of your tool stack as possible.
2:17:25
So we integrate very deeply into like Octa, Google, you know, Slack, you know, even your Jira, right?
2:17:30
Like we don't have to replace your ITM.
2:17:32
So, um, your ticketing tool, you can actually keep that.
2:17:34
You've spent a lot of time configuring it and building it out.
2:17:37
You can actually build, you can basically put console in front of that and act as like your first line of defense.
2:17:42
And the reason we're able to do that, you know, I know it's kind of like an odd situation, like what do you mean you're not replacing any core system?
2:17:49
Is you we're actually like doing work.
2:17:51
Um, so we don't need to replace your your ticketing tool because we actually do 50 60% of your, you know, the requests that you're getting um again without human involvement.
2:18:00
And so that's often >> you just try to generally charge for the value.
2:18:05
Obviously, if you're doing 50 to 60% of the work, that's saving that's at least like sounds like one to many people's time.
2:18:13
But how do how do you charge for it?
2:18:17
>> Yeah, so we we just charge per end user per month basically.
2:18:20
So >> the number of employees you've got in the company, >> we kind of have like a a base price that we use and we discount as as a company gets gets larger.
2:18:28
But we try to keep pricing pretty static.
2:18:30
I know there's this trend to you know look at usage based pricing and so on.
2:18:34
What we found is you know one that can be a little confusing.
2:18:37
You know credits and things are hard to like estimate especially upfront.
2:18:40
Um and so what we found is like IT teams actually really like the predictability of knowing okay for this year I'm going to pay this much money for this tool.
2:18:47
And you know we kind of think of it as if you feel like you're getting a you know you're getting more value out of it than you're paying then you know great that's uh good for you. So >> awesome.
2:18:57
Well, thank you for driving efficiency in the enterprise.
2:19:01
>> This is something we need.
2:19:01
We I don't want to share I don't want to dox anyone, but uh you know, we we we definitely have some interns running wild with access to systems that I would love to be able to just fire off an agent to go clean up because uh you can't trust Tyler with uh these the access to the root keys to this kingdom. Anything could happen.
2:19:19
I want to be able to snap my fingers and deprovision him, turn off his RAM card before he buys more. >> Awesome.
2:19:26
We know where to find names. >> Yeah.
2:19:28
Well, thank you so much for hopping on. We'll talk to you soon. >> Great to hang out. Congrats on the round. >> Bye.
2:19:35
>> What else we got going on? We got >> We got bezel. We got getbasel. com.
2:19:36
Your bezel concier is available now to source you any watch on the planet. Seriously, any watch.
2:19:42
Also, we got a new news from Donald Boat. He's been traded. >> Big trade deal. >> Trade deal.
2:19:48
He's going over to Substack.
2:19:52
Um he says he's unless he's granted a retainer uh and a favorable contract from Nikita and Elon Musk, he will be taking his talents to Substack.
2:20:00
Uh he's been having some fun.
2:20:02
Is he really 67 feet tall?
2:20:05
That's re very tall if that's true. >> Yeah.
2:20:08
So I I I didn't meet him in person, but I knew I know someone who did meet him and he's apparently super tall and very very slim.
2:20:15
>> He says uh the low John size Yeah.
2:20:15
In order to get him on the team, you got to give him a low mileage used Corvette Z06, C5 or C6. He's funny. He's funny. Funny guy.
2:20:28
>> How How much is a low mileage uh Zo?
2:20:28
Uh >> probably $30,000 I would estimate.
2:20:35
>> I mean Z06 is like the performance package.
2:20:37
Um I believe we have our next guest in the reream waiting room.
2:20:40
Do we believe Andrew Yang is is joining.
2:20:44
>> Oh, thank you so much.
2:20:44
Welcome to welcome to the stream. how you doing the show. >> Good to meet you.
2:20:49
>> Hey guys, thanks for having me. Great to be here.
2:20:52
>> Thanks so much for hopping on early. Uh great to meet you.
2:20:54
Um uh wanted to be on the show to get an update on uh you and and and everything going on, but then also there's so many questions about AI, AGI, UBI, so many acronyms.
2:21:04
I'm sure we'll go through all of them, but uh why don't you just give us a little bit of a reintroduction for those who might not be familiar what you're up to these days? >> Sure thing.
2:21:15
People remember me from my 2020 presidential campaign saying that AI was going to come.
2:21:20
It was going to eat the jobs and that we should shift to putting money into people's hands more quickly and broadly.
2:21:27
Imagine making that case in Iowa in 2020 at truck stops before AI had actually arrived on the scene.
2:21:36
But now here we are 5 years later and I dare say a lot of the folks who are watching this are nodding their heads being like, "Oh yeah, >> you know, we're going to do a number on a lot of rank and file entry-level workers."
2:21:46
Uh, so over the last number of years, I've been trying to figure out how to get money back into people's hands.
2:21:52
I was inspired by my friend Mark Cuban, who started cost plus drugs.
2:21:54
You guys had Mark on recently, right?
2:21:58
>> We did a couple weeks ago. He was great. >> Yeah.
2:22:00
So I thought, can we cost plus anything else in American life?
2:22:02
And I realized that we're spending 170 billion or so on our cell phone services and data.
2:22:09
I was paying Verizon over a hundred dollars a month.
2:22:11
140 a month to be precise.
2:22:14
Uh and meanwhile, Verizon and AT&T paid out 18 billion in shareholder dividends in the last 12 months.
2:22:21
>> So you can kind of start doing some math and realize that uh Americans are paying twice as much for data as people in other countries.
2:22:28
Uh so today is the kickoff of Noble Mobile where we try and put money back into Americans hands and uh hopefully have people dooms a little bit less, live a little better.
2:22:37
We're having a big party uh in New York City on Thursday night.
2:22:41
Uh you guys are not in New York, right?
2:22:44
And having you guys come as VIPs and hang out.
2:22:47
>> We would we'll be there spirit we'll be there spiritually.
2:22:49
Um, but break down break down uh I I I know kind of kind of the mechanics of Noble Mobile, but break it down for for the audience.
2:22:56
How how does uh what's the um how does it actually work?
2:23:01
Um >> well, before I get into this, I'd actually love to put you guys on the spot and ask who you use for your wireless provider.
2:23:08
So, I I said I was >> I use Verizon.
2:23:10
They've been fleecing me for years. >> Verizon.
2:23:13
Yeah, >> they have the same bad saying.
2:23:16
>> I I actually have a I actually have an iMessage here. Uh, your bill is ready. This is not a joke. 11:45 this came in.
2:23:24
Um, >> your bill is ready.
2:23:26
>> I just I just pay it and I and I don't I don't think too much about it, but I'm sure I'm getting fleece because I probably signed up on some like super cheap contract about a decade ago and it's gone up every month and you know uh it's uh >> ads are like lock in the price in parenthesis because we're just going to keep on raising it.
2:23:43
But the the craziest thing is when you guys travel abroad, when I was on Verizon, I went to Europe with my family this summer and the travel pass cost 10 bucks a day uh to put yourself on the the foreign carriers towers.
2:23:57
You know how much Verizon, AT&T are spending to put you on uh the partners' about $2. 50.
2:24:04
So why on earth would you charge us $10 or $12 a day if it's going to cost you $250?
2:24:08
like the the entire industry when you start digging in um there's just a lot of profiteering. >> Yeah.
2:24:15
So, >> so you guys pay you guys pay people to use their phone less.
2:24:18
Does that mean I start out with a like but but break down the actual mechanics of of how that works on a on a month-to-month basis? >> Sure thing. So, check it out. I'll use myself.
2:24:30
Um I I know I use my phone for doom scrolling and social media a little bit too much.
2:24:35
Um, but at the same time, I consider myself an effective intouch individual and kind of need my smartphone and uh, you know, don't want to count how how much data I'm using.
2:24:45
So, the way Noble Mobile works is that you pay a $50 flat fee for unlimited data and if you use it up the wazoo, then you paid 50 and that's the end of it.
2:24:55
Um, but if you use less than 20 gigs per month, then we'll give you cash back, uh, in the form of an end-to-month payment, uh, data dividend we call it, of up to 20 bucks.
2:25:06
And then any money we give you will then grow at a 5.
2:25:09
5% interest rate annualized so that your cell phone plan becomes like a mini savings vehicle um, without you having to think about it or do anything.
2:25:19
And so this way you get >> Do you guys hold on do you guys do you guys hold on to those funds as long as somebody's like a a customer?
2:25:25
Is that how that works or or like or >> you can take the money out anytime you want. It's your money.
2:25:30
Uh but if you leave it with us, we'll grow it at a higher rate than you're going to get someplace else risk-f free because we wanted to it to be a set it and forget it savings plan.
2:25:40
Uh one of our first investors was a guy named Scott Galloway Prof who you guys probably know. Has he been on the show? >> Not yet. Not yet.
2:25:48
We got to He's got to come on sometime. >> Yeah. I'll try.
2:25:51
I'm I'm seeing him later this week. So >> that'd be amazing. Yeah.
2:25:54
Please let him know >> in your direction.
2:25:56
But Scott's very passionate about trying to help young people in particular, young men, >> save money in a set it forget it way.
2:26:05
And so, uh, Noble Mobile, we want to do three things at once, which is a lot, but whatever.
2:26:09
Number one, we want to see you actually pay closer to what you should be paying true value for your data.
2:26:14
It's about half what you're currently paying.
2:26:15
Number two, we want to incentivize you to doom scroll a little less and look at your family's faces a little more.
2:26:21
And number three, we want to make it easier for you to save money without having to think about it.
2:26:24
Um, so those are the the the things that we think we can accomplish.
2:26:29
>> That's a really cool flow.
2:26:30
>> What uh what's the customer acquisition strategy besides you telling as many people as possible about it? You're starting there.
2:26:36
Uh but uh but what's the GTM look like? >> Sure thing.
2:26:41
So, uh, one of the things we figured out was that, um, I've got a following, Scott Galloway's got a following, Charlmagne's got a following, a lot of people have followings, and so if you want to help them, uh, save money and live a little better, uh, you can tell them about Noble Mobile and for every person uh, you tell, you help them, but then we also will reward you.
2:27:04
So, what you're going to see is that there's going to be something of a collective um that's now helping acquire customers and let people know about this.
2:27:12
The model that everyone's familiar with is Ryan Reynolds, Midmobile, Ryan Reynolds shows up on commercials and whatnot.
2:27:18
And so, one of the jokes I tell is like I'm talking to >> various celebrities or influencers.
2:27:22
It's like, look, instead of one Ryan Reynolds, they're going to be like 30 of us or or 50 of us or whatnot.
2:27:28
And then when I tell them Ryan Reynolds made $300 million, uh then they they're, you know, >> he did enlighten self-interest kicks in and people are like, "Okay, like I'm definitely ready to to um to, you know, uh tell my people."
2:27:45
Um so we're in conversations right now with some very very fun, fascinating figures with followings. That's a lot of Fs.
2:27:50
Um but that this is like a consumer centered humanbased movement to try and make this industry work better for us. >> That's very cool.
2:28:02
>> Um what what does it take to actually build a new uh a new telecom company like this?
2:28:08
You guys obviously aren't setting up your own uh towers, but are you are you partnered with with some bigger existing players or or what did that look like?
2:28:17
>> Yeah, it was it was a lot of work setting up our own towers.
2:28:19
uh you know I had to like get out the tool belt now.
2:28:23
So you're obviously right.
2:28:25
Um we did is we we licensed hundreds of millions of dollars worth of data from one of the big carriers.
2:28:32
And the point I want to make to your incredibly savvy audience is like look you talk about you chose Verizon 10 years ago.
2:28:38
I chose Verizon 25 years ago >> and we chose it based on something that we thought was like network quality.
2:28:44
Like I'm an important person.
2:28:45
>> There's a map and Verizon map was more red than the other maps.
2:28:47
Well, it was like in in little towns where we were cities.
2:28:52
It was like, well, this network's better than that one, this one.
2:28:55
And it was just vibes vibes based basically. >> Yeah.
2:28:58
So, over the last 10 to 20 years, what happened is all three carriers bulked up their networks to the point where they're all pretty excellent.
2:29:06
And then now you have um some satellite data that's getting piped through the network.
2:29:12
So, what happened is that we made a buying decision x years ago.
2:29:14
And then in the time since uh it kind of um got leveled up and became commoditized.
2:29:23
So what we're what we're doing is we licensed hundreds of millions of dollars worth of data from um one of the carriers, T-Mobile.
2:29:30
Uh and then now we can make it available to people uh in a way that's really going to uh again accomplish multiple goals.
2:29:38
And the great thing is that it's in this day and age, too, because check this out, guys. Like, you're like me. I bet.
2:29:43
And I have approximately zero experience actually switching carriers.
2:29:50
Maybe you've done it zero times.
2:29:51
>> Y >> um I was the same way.
2:29:52
I've had I've been on Verizon for 25 years.
2:29:54
Um every device manufactured from 2018 on now has an eSIM where you can direct it to another network.
2:30:01
you keep your number, keep your phone, takes five minutes and you can just bingo bango switch to another network.
2:30:08
Most consumers do not understand this.
2:30:10
Um, and even I knew it technically, but then when I actually switched from Verizon, even I was like, "Holy I just ended a 25 year relationship in five minutes and now I'm saving myself, you know, $1,200 a year." Like that. This is like magic. That's great.
2:30:26
Um so so now in many ways the goal is to to spread the magic to as many Americans as possible.
2:30:33
>> Are you guys uh like how does it uh what's where what's T-Mobile or Noble Mobile's integrations with the actual hardware manufacturers?
2:30:43
Are you guys working on deals with with uh like uh with companies at the device level? >> Yeah.
2:30:51
So we we think most people are happy with their device uh and will just bring their own phone.
2:30:56
Uh there are some people that are under a contract with their carrier uh and obviously there was like a new iPhone launch just last week.
2:31:05
>> Um so there are some folks who and by the way this is true of you guys too.
2:31:08
I love talking to people like you because we're we're on the same boat.
2:31:11
So there was a period when every time a new iPhone came out we're all like oh my god I need that line up. >> Yeah. Yeah. The remember the lines. >> Yeah.
2:31:20
And then that stopped being true like a number of months ago where we're like, "What's the difference with this one?"
2:31:25
You know, the camera's a little better.
2:31:27
Like, I'm not even really seeing it. >> This one's orange.
2:31:30
>> And you can see that the the device replacement cycle has just gotten longer and longer.
2:31:34
So, I talked before about how the networks have become at par and commoditized.
2:31:39
Our devices have kind of converged around a level that we're perfectly happy with.
2:31:44
Um, and so most people we think don't want a new phone necessarily.
2:31:49
this one like you know to not be getting gouged every month.
2:31:51
If you do want to get a new device and you decide to go through the carriers, by the way, I've done this.
2:31:57
So, I get a new iPhone and Verizon and like the device is free, but I'm tied up in a two-year contract where I'm paying Verizon a certain amount over this period.
2:32:06
And I want the folks listening to this just to think about it for a second.
2:32:10
the carrier's contracts with us are so profitable that they can zero out and subsidize a $1,200 device or $1,000 device and be like, "Hey, it's free to you because we're making so much money off you. We're going to pay."
2:32:22
I mean, obviously Apple's not giving them that device for free.
2:32:24
Apple's like, you know, getting paid a lot of money.
2:32:28
>> So, it would be more costefficient for someone who really wants the iPhone 17 to buy one unlocked >> and then sign up with Noble.
2:32:35
If you did the math, you'd actually save money on that versus getting it for free um from a carrier.
2:32:40
But most people are perfectly happy with their current device uh and might just want to to try a different network. >> Cool.
2:32:48
>> Well, congratulations on the launch. Super exciting.
2:32:50
I'm excited to see the different partners that you put together and I feel like you just can hit the campaign trail again, but this time for Noble M.
2:32:57
>> Yeah, you know the playbook.
2:32:58
>> Hanging just go truck stop to truck stop and just like help people switch over.
2:33:03
>> Yeah, >> you guys has read my mind.
2:33:04
Uh, you know, I'm coming to a truck stop near you in a hot minute. It might not just be me.
2:33:08
It might be Scott Galloway.
2:33:10
It might be someone else in the Noble Collective.
2:33:14
Um, but this is going to be a really fun company to grow.
2:33:17
Um, because >> Noah, it's it's an industry that's really past due for some modernization and some humanization. >> Yeah. >> Uh, last question.
2:33:27
Did you did you raise a bunch of money for this already? Yeah.
2:33:31
And I think you guys get to do a sound effect, but yeah, we raised we we raised 10.
2:33:35
3 million >> uh from a sound effect, an authentic.
2:33:41
>> We have a real gong in the studio. >> I did enjoy that.
2:33:42
I want to bang that gong in person. >> You're welcome.
2:33:47
>> Anytime you're in LA, let us know. >> Oh, yeah. I I'll let you know.
2:33:49
I'll be in LA before you know it. Scott's an investor.
2:33:53
A lot of other fun people are investors.
2:33:55
Shout out to Corazone Capital for leading the round.
2:33:57
Um, and uh, you know, we're we're going to grow like a weed. It's going to be fun. >> Fantastic. Well, congratulations.
2:34:03
Great to get the update and uh, we'll see you soon hopefully.
2:34:07
>> Yeah, we'll talk to you soon, Andrew. Thanks so much. >> Thanks, guys. See you in LA. Appreciate you. >> Cheers. >> Bye.
2:34:14
>> And if you're thinking about going to his event in New York, you need a place to stay, book a wonder with inspiring views, hotel, great mannies, dreamy beds, top cleaning, and 24/7 concier service.
2:34:23
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2:34:25
Find your happy place on wander. com.
2:34:28
Um, hey, there's some folks that are traveling, some folks that are going to be in LA, some folks wondering.
2:34:34
John says, "What's the Galloway appearing on TBPN would be a milestone for me the very first time I force grabbed my YouTube app."
2:34:42
>> So, yeah, I was about literally I'm about to DM John Xley to know like is he that anti-Scott because I feel like we have some we have a wide breadth of guests here.
2:34:52
We can have a conversation with all sorts of people.
2:34:53
Um but if he's uh but if he's >> Yeah, I'm I'd be interested.
2:34:57
Uh we gota we gota we got to let John weigh in on on key decisions like this. >> I think so. I think so. >> But um but yeah.
2:35:07
>> Uh anyway, uh what else is in the news?
2:35:11
Uh someone's hosting a website on disposable vape.
2:35:12
Did you see this on hacker news?
2:35:14
Taylor says, "Me stressing about how we're going to build the best backend infrastructure for the future of agentic workflows and quantum MCP hackers.
2:35:24
Are they making internet connected vapes now? Is that >> They are. I've seen these.
2:35:27
I've seen these in person.
2:35:29
Uh the LCD screens uh the actual screens have gotten so cheap that you can run an entire computer on them basically.
2:35:38
And these are disposable.
2:35:40
>> Can you run an AI factory or a supercomput?
2:35:42
>> I don't think you can mine Bitcoin effectively.
2:35:44
I don't think you can inference the most cutting edge frontier AI models, but you can do a lot more on a disposable B vape.
2:35:50
We should uh we should get Tyler to build something.
2:35:55
>> Bobby Cosmic, our the lone soldier in the on the on our TVPN Twitch.
2:35:58
What if I want to stream TVPN for 3 hours a day on 5G?
2:36:03
Would Noble Mobile be a good fit? >> That's the benchmark.
2:36:06
You can't have a carrying three hours of live streaming a day.
2:36:12
>> I think um I think I think uh it's interesting.
2:36:15
So, Noble Mobile, >> I think I think the messaging is like a bit, you know, they're trying to do a bunch of things at once.
2:36:20
I think I think just a $50 phone plan that helps you use your phone less is like enough of messaging and I'm I think that they can get >> a bunch of people to sign up for that. >> Yep.
2:36:33
>> Um is it going to be a competitive blood bath? Yes. >> I don't know.
2:36:37
There's something about saving saving money that can create these interesting fly flywheels. Remember Acorns?
2:36:44
Didn't that company do very well?
2:36:47
It was a I believe it was a consumer credit card that every time you swiped it, it would round up to the nearest dollar and put the cents in a savings account and compound.
2:36:56
And so it was a way to save money and I believe they got to maybe a billion dollar valuation.
2:37:01
It felt like it was >> Yeah, they they almost spacked. It got cancelled.
2:37:06
They had 120 million of revenue.
2:37:08
This this was one of those things like early fintech company that was like winning but then didn't I don't think they've ever gotten out.
2:37:14
I'd be interested to see what happens with that business.
2:37:18
But yeah, the just save money on your mobile plan is like a simple message.
2:37:22
I think Andrew building a coalition of celebrities that are that feel good about promoting this. Use your phone less.
2:37:29
>> Um but again, I mean, it's going to be uh uh like like you said, you you don't think that much.
2:37:35
There's we're not the target audience, I think, for Noble Mobile. Yeah.
2:37:39
>> Um but there's a bunch of people out there that >> Yeah.
2:37:41
I think I like the savings concept.
2:37:43
Um, I I'm worried about the revealed preference of people say they don't want to scroll. People like to scroll.
2:37:50
>> No, I think I think his argument would be even at $50 a month, it's still cheaper than >> Yeah. Yeah, that makes sense.
2:37:55
Um, well, if you're scrolling X, you're going to be treated to a uh somewhat tweaked algorithm that Nikita's been working on.
2:38:04
Peter Yang breaks it down.
2:38:04
He says he hasn't seen a quote, "It's so over RIP product or this changes everything cringe tweet on here in days.
2:38:13
The algorithm must be working."
2:38:16
And so, uh, Dylan Field put it to the test.
2:38:19
Founder of Figma, of course, he said, "It's so over. RIP cringe tweets.
2:38:23
New Xalgo changes everything."
2:38:26
And as funny as that post is, it didn't go viral.
2:38:29
And so I think I think that they might have uh nerfed that meta.
2:38:35
We're seeing a new meta emerge already with the be Jeff Bezos, be Sam Alman, be Elon Musk spawn in like the the the 4chan style.
2:38:47
>> One meta dies, another is born.
2:38:49
>> Yes, there is always a new meta. Never lose hope.
2:38:53
>> I've been liking I've been liking the the the new ones.
2:38:55
I think it's a it's a funny way to tell a story and I've actually been learning something. >> Yes.
2:39:00
and it is more indepth like it it has more to unpack.
2:39:02
It's typically hard to get a lot of text to go viral.
2:39:04
Uh the the viral posts tend to just be like one or two sentences, but these longer stories when they're told in this format seem to do quite well.
2:39:13
Um at the same time, they're uh they're rife with misinformation a lot of times as we've as we've learned from actually reading them.
2:39:22
Um but you got to go to the you got to go to the source sometimes.
2:39:26
>> Well, I think we have Tim Higgins.
2:39:26
We have our next guest from the Wall Street Journal, Tim Higgins. Welcome to the stream. How you doing?
2:39:35
>> Hey, thanks guys for having me.
2:39:36
>> We were I believe we were just reading some of your reporting about uh Elon Musk and the pay package.
2:39:41
I believe you you authored that, correct? >> Yeah.
2:39:45
You know, I write a lot about Elon. Yeah.
2:39:47
>> Uh and it's the trillion dollar man.
2:39:49
>> The story of the month, right?
2:39:52
>> And you have trillion dollar hair. >> Fantastic hair.
2:39:56
So, it's fitting that you would that you would write.
2:39:58
>> Um, but I mean, we don't need to wait into Elon territory.
2:40:00
Give us the update on the book. >> Yeah.
2:40:03
Congratulations on the launch. >> Well, thank you. Thank you. I wore it is out today.
2:40:08
It's a great corporate drama about Apple, about all of these rivals who want to displace Apple is the gateway to the digital world.
2:40:15
Uh, the gateway being the iPhone, the app store that really changed the world almost 20 years ago. >> Yep.
2:40:23
the the ultimate toll booth.
2:40:25
>> We were feeling the power of iMessage and the lock in there and how hard it is to build other products that want to deal with communication in your life if you're in the iMessage world. Apple has you.
2:40:37
They have >> I mean there's so many there's so there's so many different angles >> and people don't Yeah.
2:40:41
People think, oh, you just switch the phone and then you're in a different ecosystem.
2:40:43
Like there's there's a lot of threads holding on.
2:40:46
Um so yeah, walk us through the inspiration, the reporting process. uh how much was foyed?
2:40:51
How much was reading through, you know, leaked tech emails versus uh original reporting, talking to sources?
2:40:59
Uh what is >> when did you start writing this book, by the way?
2:41:02
Because this is a story that's been unfolding. >> Yeah. >> For years.
2:41:06
>> Well, you know, it's to your point, it's been a 10-year uh fight for Apple.
2:41:08
I mean, people started complaining about that power almost from the get-go, but you really started to see the seeds of of what I think of as a rebellion, almost like a Boston Tea Party moment of these colonists in the new world that Apple created, kind of rising up over that Apple tax, what they call it, Apple tax, the 15 to 30% commission that Apple takes on digital services and sales. Right.
2:41:35
And >> also more so the rules, right? Exactly.
2:41:38
And so when I I so I'm a business columnist at the journal, but I had been the Applebe reporter at the journal.
2:41:42
Had been the Applebee reporter at Bloomberg.
2:41:45
So I'd written about Apple for many years.
2:41:46
And I I followed the Tim Sweeney Epic uh lawsuit against Apple very closely.
2:41:52
And it paid attention every day during that lengthy trial in 2021 and just was struck by the scale of the drama.
2:42:02
Uh you know, in one way Tim Sweeney is a very interesting protagonist.
2:42:07
He's uh started the company from scratch, had this vision.
2:42:10
He's a worldbuilder uh beyond just being an entrepreneur.
2:42:15
He's thinking about the future whether it's the metaverse and how Fortnite might play in that.
2:42:18
And he was looking at Apple as is going too far uh you know taking too much um really kind of against that idea of the the open internet, right?
2:42:31
Then you have Apple which is also a a storied US company which had really built something very important to everyday life.
2:42:40
The the iPhone and clearly the center of many people's digital lives, digital experience.
2:42:43
And and their kind of argument is we built this. We keep it running.
2:42:48
We we're giving you all these customers.
2:42:50
You you kind of owe us a little and and isn't that fair?
2:42:55
And so you had these kind of this really great clash of of what is how should this play out?
2:43:01
And so it just it struck me as interesting.
2:43:03
And as I started kind of thinking about it in a bigger way, it really seemed as if it wasn't just Tim Sweeney.
2:43:10
You got the Spotify element.
2:43:12
You've got the regulators in Europe.
2:43:14
You've got other tech companies in the US and around the world really kind of rising up in this kind of interesting moment which I thought in a lot of ways was surprising. Right?
2:43:24
If you went back several years ago and talked about monopolies in the US and Microsoft, the old Microsoft of course was uh attacked by the DOJ and fought those allegations.
2:43:36
But in the more modern era, Google, Amazon, those were the big tech companies that were painted with that monopoly brush, fairly or not.
2:43:46
But Apple in a lot of ways especially in Washington DC was seen as uh you know something to aspire to uh and you know what we've seen uh in the last few years because of Epic because of Spotify because of others has changed the conversation around the power of Apple and the power it has not just that tax if you will but about the control they have on the the digital the digital world. >> Yeah.
2:44:16
Uh, how did you >> is is Apple good or bad? I'm kidding. I'm kidding.
2:44:21
I'm not going to make you I'm not going to make you condense it down.
2:44:24
I did have a So, so you know, uh, we're extremely sympathetic to the to the startups, businesses, building in the Apple ecosystem and creating a value for Apple users and then obviously paying the tax.
2:44:37
I had a funny uh funny experience, John and I, the other day.
2:44:40
I was like trying to download an app.
2:44:42
I realized I downloaded a fake app. >> Yeah, that's right.
2:44:47
>> And then I got to get the benefit of the Apple toll booth because I just immediately went into my subscriptions and canceled it in one click.
2:44:52
And I was just thinking at that time if this was just some regular app on the internet, it would have just they would have made it harder.
2:44:59
They maybe would have like tried to not let me.
2:45:03
>> And that's Apple's argument.
2:45:03
They say, you know, this isn't a tax.
2:45:04
This is you're licensing our software. >> Yeah.
2:45:09
And it's and it can be it's fair, right?
2:45:12
They're providing a service.
2:45:14
They're providing security.
2:45:14
They're providing a a ecosystem that the user wants to be part of. >> Yeah.
2:45:19
Were you able to uncover any special deals that Apple has brokered with big companies? >> Yeah.
2:45:26
>> I feel like 30% sometimes they they certainly don't want to mention that that's ever been, you know, negotiated down.
2:45:33
But >> there's also like the way like the way in which Audible does their pricing.
2:45:36
You can't just like buy books.
2:45:38
You got to subscribe to that.
2:45:40
that part of their weird is their system like designed to like get around >> these rules I'm cur interested to know about like what are the weird edge cases what are the >> so one of the things about Apple >> and you compare it to the Android system Google's operating system is that Apple likes to pride itself on not doing special deals now you know its critics would point to some edge cases that they feel are leaning towards helping others.
2:46:11
But >> generally, that's kind of the deal is that Apple has some rules and wants everybody to kind of follow them.
2:46:19
Now, they get it's confusing because sometimes there's categories and you know, we can get into that.
2:46:24
Sometimes Roblox is perhaps treated differently compared to Epic Games in in the old way, but they just kind of put it under the category of they don't like to do special deals, whereas Android does do special deals in part because uh they feel that they have to compete against Apple to win those hot apps, right?
2:46:45
The hot video games that drive so much of the sales uh in this ecosystem.
2:46:51
if they're seeing the games go into the app store and and Apple, they feel at a disadvantage.
2:46:55
So, they're always trying to create an Appleike experience in the Google in the Google world, if you will.
2:47:02
And it it creates an interesting dynamic out there and kind of shows how these kind of things play out, right?
2:47:08
And so, one of the things you see in the book is, well, why did Tim Sweeney, why did he go to war against two of the most powerful companies at the same time?
2:47:18
And when I mean say the last comment, I mean Apple and Google, it's because he first went to Google and tried to do uh he tried to get his app so you could go outside of the app store in the Google world and Android world and download it that way.
2:47:35
And he didn't get a lot of success.
2:47:36
And part of that was he would find out later was that phone companies and some of his uh competitors in the video game world who he was trying to partner with to create an alternative app store that would be available on the the Android system.
2:47:51
They were getting deals from Google not to do stuff like that.
2:47:56
Now they could do that but they didn't have any incentive to do it. Right.
2:47:58
So he figures this out and then he's like, you know, he's got to go after them both at the same time because Google is accusing him of of basically not complaining about Apple's deal when it's he's got a lot of complaints about that.
2:48:11
So it really he gamles that he can take to the courts this case that that Google and Apple are out of line and it it doesn't go very well for him at the beginning.
2:48:22
You remember his lawsuit against Apple, he basically lost most of it. >> Yeah.
2:48:26
Now, he would be successful against Google later on.
2:48:28
Uh, but Sweeney essentially loses most of the case.
2:48:31
And in an Apple, the way they handled it, uh, probably pushing too far, angering the judge, uh, over the one thing that she was upset about, this idea of, uh, that Apple wouldn't allow developers to steer users to, uh, other websites to make payments.
2:48:48
And she wanted them to be able to do this.
2:48:50
And Apple made it so difficult uh that she really came down hard on them earlier this year.
2:48:55
And essentially uh very cleverly uh these companies now are able to do that.
2:49:00
And you see Spotify and and Epic take advantage of it immediately and directing users right outside of that the walled garden of Apple uh to make their upgrades to the apps or pay their video game stuff.
2:49:14
that it's pretty a remarkable crack in in the in the in the Apple >> E.
2:49:19
Have they been have they been super effective at driving the majority of users to pay outside of the ecosystem or is it more like half of the users are opting for these alternative payment rails and half or or are they just saying like the only way to buy is now outside of the Apple walled garden?
2:49:39
>> Yeah, it's pretty remarkable.
2:49:39
What I understand is that the early early data is pretty uh pretty good uh for companies that are doing this.
2:49:46
One of the other kind of data points that I look at is that Spotify several years ago is it was thinking about how it could fight Apple in this regard.
2:49:57
essentially started doing AB testing in Europe uh with its Android app to to kind of run a a testing that was essentially like if this was Apple, this would be the Apple rules and without the rules and kind of a variation of all that to see how much that was hurting them.
2:50:12
And the data according to the records that I that I've looked at was pretty significant that it was a considered a bad user experience and b uh they were losing out a lot of upgrades.
2:50:21
And so the early suggestion is that uh users like to like to do that. Mhm. >> like to go outside. >> Yeah. >> Interesting. >> Bullish. >> Bullish.
2:50:33
>> Bearish >> for everybody but Apple. >> It's exciting.
2:50:34
Um >> what what what else are you following going uh you know I don't want to I want people to buy and read the book.
2:50:42
>> I just bought it on on Audible.
2:50:42
I'm looking forward to listen but uh but downloading it now.
2:50:47
>> Did you just pay the Apple tax? >> Yeah. How much do you get? It charged me 16 bucks.
2:50:51
Are you gonna get >> Well, we don't need we don't need to break down.
2:50:54
We don't need to break it all down, but what is Audible's deal? I'm actually curious. Do you have any idea?
2:51:00
>> You know, it's one of those, it's interesting.
2:51:02
Just take a step back to uh Amazon and Apple and how they they were some of the early fights in this kind of war.
2:51:09
you go back uh several years ago and and Steve this was back when Steve Jobs was alive and Amazon is advertising that you can buy your books uh and not have to you can you can read it on the iPhone and you don't have to pay for it.
2:51:25
it doesn't go through Apple's system and they and Apple was just steaming over this and essentially they came out with these rules that if you were selling it in the digital world you had to you had to basically use Apple's system and so uh that's why you would see on the Apple
2:51:42
on the Amazon app you couldn't buy uh through the app you couldn't buy books through the app because they didn't want to pay the the Apple tax if you will and and one of the first companies after this rule earlier this year was changed because of the court ruling was Amazon. >> Mhm. >> Mhm.
2:51:57
>> You can go buy your digital books now um through that the app because it's it's directing you outside uh the Apple system.
2:52:05
>> Yeah, I remember I would click and wind up in a web browser even though I had the Amazon app installed.
2:52:10
>> What time what should people be paying attention to going forward?
2:52:12
I know a lot of these cases Apple has an opportunity to kind of fight, you know, even after the judge decides one thing, they can come back and say uh, you know, continue to continue to fight it.
2:52:24
But what what else is working its way through the courts?
2:52:28
>> I mean, Apple's appealing.
2:52:28
They feel the judge got it wrong in the US.
2:52:30
Uh, they have been fined in Europe where uh, regulators there uh, find them over their the conduct of how they treated music apps like Spotify.
2:52:40
Spotify behind along with other tech companies pushing for the the DMA, that kind of landmark uh tech bill that was passed a few years ago that aims to limit big platforms like Apple.
2:52:53
Uh Apple's already been fined for that, but they are are working to to to make rules that they think are fair, but that the folks that are against Apple would say don't kind of take the spirit of the law and really kind of an example of how Apple fights this stuff tooth and nail.
2:53:08
And >> so that's to watch.
2:53:10
The bigger issue here uh perhaps um is just the way that Apple has been kind of painted as a monopolist fairly or not.
2:53:18
It it overshadows or it kind of tails them now as they go forward into new technologies.
2:53:25
Everything they do is looked at as is Apple abusing its power as they move into new spaces.
2:53:29
So in AI for example, I think investors would say a Apple's behind in AI right now.
2:53:36
There's a lot of frustration out there.
2:53:38
And so even when they do a deal with Open AI uh to help kind of bolster their chat capabilities with Siri, you see Elon Musk come in and sue and say, "Wait a second.
2:53:48
This is this is monopoly behavior.
2:53:50
Apple is using its power to hurt other AI companies with this kind of deal." Right?
2:53:56
So, put aside the merits of the lawsuit.
2:53:58
You got Apple's getting in this position where it's having to defend basically everything it does against the idea that it is a monopoly.
2:54:05
and and that is a distraction uh that the company has to deal with.
2:54:10
And it makes me remember uh a generation ago where Microsoft had a very similar situation as the DOJ went after it and regulators in Europe went after it and Bill Gates and others at Microsoft have talked about how that period was a massive distraction and contributed them falling behind as the new edge technologies took over.
2:54:28
They they missed out on mobile if you will and some other uh things.
2:54:32
And that, you know, there there's some similarities here as you look at at AI and where Apple is at this moment.
2:54:39
>> Yeah, that's fascinating.
2:54:39
It is such a distraction because yeah, with these high stakes lawsuit, the CEO has to go like you just can't delegate it fully.
2:54:46
I mean, I'm sure there's teams of lawyers and whole legal departments that handle 90% of it, but it's still something >> done any big M&A, right?
2:54:53
They're doing these little They've doing a bunch of little deals, but nothing.
2:54:58
>> It's hard to get locked in and focus on the next generation technology. Well, congratulations. >> Congratulations.
2:55:03
The book The book is I War.
2:55:04
It's available everywhere. Books are sold. Please go.
2:55:07
>> I'm excited to read it and come back on anytime.
2:55:10
>> Leave a review if you buy it. Leave a fivestar review.
2:55:13
>> We said earlier on the show, we made it into the journal for the first time ourselves yesterday.
2:55:17
>> It's a It's a full circle. Congratulations, guys. >> Thank you so much.
2:55:21
>> The journal is the backbone of TBP. It >> It really is.
2:55:23
Uh the reporting is fantastic and we appreciate everything you do.
2:55:26
Thank you so much for hopping off. >> Thank you both. Have a good day. >> Talk to you soon. >> Bye.
2:55:30
And up next we have Alex from Open AI coming out of the reream waiting room into the TVP and let you start it. I'll be right.
2:55:37
I will kick it off with Alex from Open AI. We are bringing in Alex. >> How are you doing? Good to meet you. >> Hey, how's it going? Nice to meet you too. >> Uh fantastic.
2:55:50
Thanks so much for joining.
2:55:52
Uh would love to get uh brief introduction on yourself, your role within um OpenAI and then the update today. >> For sure. So, hey, I'm Alex.
2:55:59
I'm the product lead for Codeex.
2:56:01
And uh yeah, actually been it's been a pretty fun morning.
2:56:04
We've been spent the morning like looking for GPUs because we shipped a new model yesterday.
2:56:08
Um and demand was a little bit too high than uh forecasted. Okay.
2:56:13
>> Uh and so we were running the model actually a lot slower than we were hoping and luckily we just fixed that.
2:56:18
Um so the update um >> we just shipped a new model for Codex.
2:56:22
Codex is our coding agent. >> Yep.
2:56:24
>> Um it's an agent you can work with everywhere you code.
2:56:25
So like in your terminal, your IDE, GitHub, even your phone, which is actually a crowd favorite. >> That's great.
2:56:31
>> Uh the goal for Codeex is to build it into an AI teammate.
2:56:33
So you know, just like a human teammate, you start out working together with it.
2:56:36
Eventually, you start delegating tasks to it, and then eventually you just give it a laptop, some permissions, and a job, and you just say like, "Please prompt me with tasks that you think are worth doing." >> Yeah. >> Um so go ahead.
2:56:48
>> Uh yeah, I I have I have so many questions.
2:56:49
Um I mean first I'm I'm interested uh you running the model slower actually helps you if you're in a GPU crunch.
2:56:56
Is that just because you're spreading the amount of uh inference across like a broader user base essentially? >> Yeah.
2:57:02
Just think like if you you know on your laptop like if you open like way too many programs they all just kind of run a little slower. Okay.
2:57:08
>> Uh so that the solution you know you could close programs on your computer but we don't want to do that.
2:57:12
>> No of course because you have other other clients and other users and businesses and stuff.
2:57:14
um uh where uh like t take me through some of the use cases.
2:57:20
I mean we were talking to uh Doug Laughlin over at semi analysis fabricated knowledge and he was saying that uh he'll use what is traditionally like a coding agent to actually go and do something that looks like a deep research report.
2:57:33
I had a sort of magical uh uh result where I used um a coding agent to do a deep research report but then instantiate it in HTML and then I was able just to open an HTML page locally and it was this amazing thing because it just has different set of UI that it can pull from that's not native to just the chatt app.
2:57:52
Uh, and so that's one world, but then I'm sure there's people that are using this in the business context, deploying it into like large code bases.
2:58:00
Where are people having the most success these days? >> Yeah, totally.
2:58:05
I mean, coding agents are really flexible.
2:58:07
Uh, the primary use cases for coding agents and, you know, in codeex as well are to write code, answer questions, >> uh, and review code as well.
2:58:14
Um, and that's really what's been sticking.
2:58:16
So, we've seen like well over 10x growth in usage just over the past month. >> Wow.
2:58:21
And most of that is improvements in how people use it to write code and answer questions.
2:58:25
Um, but we're now >> So, just to be clear, you said 10x growth in the last month. >> Yeah. Over over that.
2:58:31
It's Yeah, it's growing like crazy.
2:58:33
And most of this is just because we've been improving a ton. >> Yeah.
2:58:38
>> Uh, so like, you know, if you go back rewind a little bit over a month ago, we had the codec, which is a coding agent in your terminal.
2:58:43
We've landed a ton of improvements to that. >> Yep.
2:58:45
Um, you know, some people like buttons, so and they like using uh, you know, the coding agent next to the code that they're editing themselves.
2:58:51
So, we shipped a VS Code extension.
2:58:52
VS Code is a, you know, really popular IDE course.
2:58:56
Um, and, you know, that's quickly becoming a super popular surface as well.
2:59:00
>> And, um, you know, one of the special things about Codex is that it doesn't only run locally on your computer >> like a teammate, it can also run on its own computer and we call that Codex cloud tasks.
2:59:08
And so, we've landed a bunch of improvements there as well to make it like way faster, you know, and other things.
2:59:12
So that's >> that's a huge unlock for mobile probably, right? >> Yeah. Yeah.
2:59:16
It's a huge I mean you basically can't really code on mobile unless you have that and so a lot of the work we've been doing is just like making those like fundamental surfaces where you use codecs better. >> Yep.
2:59:25
>> Um and you know that kind of started that growth curve uh which we're really excited about.
2:59:28
And then yesterday um sort of building on the success of GP5 and listening to a lot of the feedback we've been seeing around how people use GPD5 specifically for coding in codecs.
2:59:39
uh we shipped a new model which is GPT5 codeex uh a version of Codex that's like basically like further optimized specifically for the codeex type use cases >> um and that's been really cool uh you know for example one of the the big areas of feedback people had was that um you know they sometimes GP5 would think a little longer than they were hoping
2:59:58
specifically when they asked the coding question in codeex when they were just asking a quick question but in sometimes they wanted it to work longer and so one of the things we did uh is we made it so that with GP5 codeex we can actually more dynamic dynamically change how much time we're spending solving the user's question. And so, for instance, if you
3:00:11
And so, for instance, if you ask a quick question, you just get an instant answer.
3:00:14
Uh, but also we're seeing people, you know, using this thing just like letting it run for over 7 hours.
3:00:20
Um, and that's an arbitrary number.
3:00:22
I'm sure you can get it to go longer depending on the problem.
3:00:25
>> And yeah, so we're seeing a lot of feedback like that that people are are really excited about.
3:00:27
Um the model is also you know because we had the opportunity to really go deep on on software engineering and train for those use cases.
3:00:34
Uh the model is also a little better at things like code quality uh front end uh steerability via agents.
3:00:39
mmd um and some other things like that.
3:00:44
Yeah, >> I saw a post earlier from Theo.
3:00:44
He said GVD5 codeex is as far as I'm as far as I know the first time a lab has bragged about using fewer tokens.
3:00:52
Hope this becomes a trend.
3:00:54
Do you think that's going to become a trend?
3:00:59
I mean, I guess like tokens are not tokens, like really the thing is like fast.
3:01:03
Speed is really important and I think we're going to brag a lot about speed. >> Um, it's kind of fun.
3:01:06
We want to brag about both sides of it, right?
3:01:08
We want to brag about being really fast for the interactive use cases.
3:01:11
Uh, and we also want to brag about being able to do a ton of work independently. >> Yeah.
3:01:17
>> Um, so yeah, that uh that graph got mixed reactions on Twitter.
3:01:19
I don't know if you guys want to pull it up, but uh it's it's a little hard to read, but I think it's a really fun graph where you basically see the skew of like um well, I don't know how mirrored here, but basically on easy queries, we're using like 90% fewer tokens to answer your your query.
3:01:32
And then on hard tasks, complex tasks, we're like basically using like double.
3:01:38
>> Are you using the term uh model router?
3:01:40
Is is there something that you can share on the architecture there that that uh is actually driving that?
3:01:45
Because that feels like a huge unlock.
3:01:46
It was of course magical the first time you went to chat GPT and got it to dump out, you know, pages and pages of coherent text and you get to the bottom and it's all coherent still and you're like if you're if you're coming from the GPT3 world, you're like, wow, this is a huge breakthrough.
3:02:00
But then quickly you realize like I don't necessarily always need 20 pages of response.
3:02:03
I can have a smaller uh output.
3:02:06
Uh and so are is there anything that you can share there?
3:02:11
Um yeah, I mean the team really cooked here and I expect us it's like part of the exciting stuff that we're doing with Codeex is like these like very bespoke interventions. Sure.
3:02:18
Um but no, it doesn't have a router, but there's a little bit of secret sauce there that we we're not going to go too much into. >> Yeah. Yeah, of course.
3:02:25
Um what how are you thinking about uh like model naming conventions and model numbering conventions?
3:02:31
Um that there was a time when when model number correlated to like big circle and then GBD5 was like a much more almost holistic set of improvements.
3:02:42
You've brought those to codeex with codeex 5.
3:02:43
Um, but is there is there a world where codeex diverges?
3:02:50
Are you always building on top of the same like release cadence now?
3:02:51
Is there anything uh about how you think about messaging?
3:02:57
What actually changed um to the actual user to know, hey, it's time to dip back in if you tested this or you want to go deeper in a certain area. >> Totally.
3:03:07
I mean, so our goals with with codeex are just to build an amazing coding agent.
3:03:12
>> And if you think about what an agent is, it's a combination of like uh the model and what we call the harness, which is kind of like the set of tools that the model has and then an interface for the user around that.
3:03:20
And so the reason we put Codex in the name is because basically we wanted to just like we're really investing in Codex and like in software engineering generally.
3:03:27
And so we wanted to have the opportunity to go like much deeper and push harder on things that like might not benefit like sort of general um users of a model.
3:03:34
And in fact, we wanted even the ability to like make certain things worse.
3:03:39
So not that I've gone and checked, but like GB5 codeex if you're not using it for codecs is probably going to do worse at like a bunch of general tasks than GP5 >> will. Sure.
3:03:47
Uh react to this Rune post.
3:03:50
Right now is the time where the takeoff looks the most rapid to insiders.
3:03:52
We don't program anymore.
3:03:54
We just yell at codeex agents says rune on X.
3:03:56
Uh but may look slow to everyone else as the general chatbot medium saturates.
3:04:02
Uh people have been saying oh this is the 90% of code being written by AI agents.
3:04:08
Uh and there's this debate on are we just writing 10 times as much code?
3:04:10
Are we doing 10 10 times less work?
3:04:12
Like give me a little bit more color on how you're using codecs internally to build the actual product. >> Yeah.
3:04:21
Um I mean we use codecs internally a ton or a lot >> u and you know >> we're I can think we're at the point now where you know for like writing code these coding agents are like massively adopted >> and uh you know it's kind of a stylistic choice like how much of the code it's writing but it's like the vast majority.
3:04:39
>> Um you know I will say that our goal isn't to like we don't actually have a goal of like yeah let's like make sure the maximum amount of code is written by agents.
3:04:46
It's like really what matters is like your velocity as a team >> right? Yeah.
3:04:50
Um but uh sort of my like maybe slightly spicy take here is like actually one of the greatest limiting factors um on the utility of coding agents right now is not uh like the model's ability to write code but it's actually the human ability to like just prompt it and like make use of the agent.
3:05:06
So for example um we shipped a code review feature that's like you know doing really well a few weeks ago and uh you know the model is capable of doing code review.
3:05:15
We actually did a ton of work to make it even better at code review.
3:05:18
So, um, when Codeex does a code review for you, it'll like actually get a whole copy of the codebase.
3:05:22
It can like go read everything even outside of your PR.
3:05:25
It can even execute code to validate, which like a human is probably going to be a little too lazy to do normally.
3:05:30
>> But the big unlock isn't isn't even necessarily that like even GPD5 is a great code reviewer.
3:05:35
Uh, but the limiting factor is like are you going to go prompt the model to code review every single PR that you get? And the answer is no.
3:05:41
So what we did is we just like automated that built it in a nice way like integrated with GitHub and now we're seeing uh you know it's just reviewing the vast majority of PRs in the B open openi repos and catching like serious bugs.
3:05:53
serious bugs. It's actually kind of become a meme when uh you know if so we ask uh people internally like hey react the thumbs up if it's good just so we can like kind of see um and whenever and like reply with what's wrong with this review if it catches an issue that the
3:06:06
engineer disagrees with and you know often it'll be the case that an engineer will kind of see this issue uh reply and say yeah I I disagree and then like two days later it'll be like actually uh this was a mistake and we need to we need to actually follow the model's catch. What does it take to make it on
3:06:20
What does it take to make it on the OpenAI codeex team these days?
3:06:23
I mean, it feels like the skill set of just someone who's a programmer is changing.
3:06:31
Now you're prompting, designing. Uh what is it?
3:06:34
Give me some advice for young people or people entering the the workforce.
3:06:42
>> I think uh the thing I would say for open a coding team and by the way we are hiring uh both folks externally uh and then also you know see people can transfer internally. Yeah.
3:06:50
>> Uh probably the two most important things is kind of a you can just do things attitude >> and speed.
3:06:57
>> Um and I think those are pretty general things that I would recommend.
3:07:00
>> Um you know if you mentioned like advice for young folks like I think it's like a a sort of crazy time now to be early career because so much is just possible to do >> and possible to learn quickly.
3:07:12
>> Um but at the same time because of that everyone else is like just doing a lot of stuff and learning a lot of stuff quickly, right?
3:07:17
So I think to like really make the most of that the the key is just to just like really do stuff especially like if you're in a technical field start doing stuff beyond your coursework but actually start building things. >> Yeah.
3:07:28
Increasing returns to like high agency.
3:07:30
It's funny we're in the era of agents but then also high agency people seem to be doing better than ever.
3:07:34
It's kind of a paradox but uh uh it's a good time to be able to have a positive attitude and actually go and uh just uh just try and build things. It's a good time.
3:07:45
>> Great time to be alive. >> True. Go ahead. >> No, go for it. >> Yeah.
3:07:49
No, >> I was just going to say I think this is true as well at work, right?
3:07:50
Um like maybe before you would have a number of like very specialized role like PM, designer, front end engineer, backend engineer, like you know, S.
3:07:59
>> Uh and now u because of all these coding agents like everyone is able to just do a lot more and so you can have people like owning like entire problems end to end.
3:08:07
Um, you know, one one fun example actually leading up to to yesterday's launch is um our designer built this like really cool asy animation of a coin that's rotating. >> That's cool.
3:08:18
>> Um, and you know, that's like kind of a hard thing to get right. Oh yeah.
3:08:21
>> And so um over the weekend he just like vibe coded an asky animation editor like he >> that lets him like edit the wild. Yeah.
3:08:32
>> And like that's like such like stack compression. >> Totally. >> And it's awesome. >> Yeah.
3:08:37
I mean, there used to be a time when it was like you're a front engineer, you know JavaScript, but you don't know Ruby on Rails or Python in the back end and like the backend guy doesn't know or gal doesn't know uh JavaScript or whatever and they got to talk to each other and there's lost in translation stuff.
3:08:50
So, uh yeah, it's an entirely new era. Very exciting. >> Yeah.
3:08:54
And it comes with problems too, right?
3:08:56
Like if you have all these folks uh like the the ask animation viewer I mentioned, like that's throwaway code.
3:09:01
So, I guess there's not much tech.
3:09:01
It's just like pure acceleration.
3:09:03
We actually write a lot of throwaway code like different kinds of dashboards, >> editors, mini tools.
3:09:08
Um but then you know sometimes you have folks who are like specialized to one thing now like able to write code for a different thing.
3:09:17
>> Uh and you know that actually creates a different kind of problem which is like code review and expertise.
3:09:22
>> And so that's why like what we're trying to do with Codex now is like we're investing in making like the you know fundamental like codegen experience great and just writing code but we're also starting to like reach out now.
3:09:30
So we're really investing in code review because that's like actually becoming the bottleneck like having qualified people be confident in code.
3:09:36
We're really investing in validation.
3:09:38
So like before you review the code like can you assert functional correction correctness.
3:09:43
One thing the codeex can do now is like take screenshots.
3:09:45
It'll like actually write a playright scripture to like manipulate the website and then take the right screenshot of it so you can actually look before you read the code.
3:09:52
Um, and then we're we're thinking about, you know, where else can we make it really easy to to engage the agent uh before it actually like gets to you on your computer doing work. >> It's amazing. Congratulations.
3:10:04
>> Thank you for the update.
3:10:05
>> Thank you so much for hopping on the stream. We'll talk to you soon. >> Thanks, guys. >> Good luck out there.
3:10:08
>> Have a good rest of your day. >> CPU is on fire. >> Good luck.
3:10:12
>> Well, uh, that concludes our guests for the day.
3:10:16
>> Basically, >> we got to jump.
3:10:17
We got to catch a flight.
3:10:18
I got to listen to I wore, which is in my audible now, by Tim Higgins.
3:10:22
You can go find it in Audible, find it on Amazon.
3:10:24
Uh we will see you tomorrow live from Meta Connect >> later show tomorrow.
3:10:31
>> Later show tomorrow 4:30 where I think we're starting.
3:10:33
Uh we'll be posting updates on X, keeping you updated and stay tuned.
3:10:37
Thank you so much for tuning in.
3:10:39
>> Have a wonderful >> Thanks to Bobby Cosmic for holding it down in the Twitch chat. The >> legend.
3:10:43
>> Thank you to John Xley in the YouTube chat. We'll see you guys. teams like un