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Our guest today, Chaz, by the way, Toro Ina in the house. >> Hello. >> Good to see you, man. It's been way too long.
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Um, of course, anytime and every time.
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Um, has made a you've made a body of work which kind of reflects your last album, Whole Earth, which was I mean, there was a a couple of reviews I read when it came out that used the same word, which was unexpected.
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And I'm like, well, this is kind of the Torah thing.
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I think by now we should become accustomed to the fact that, you know, you're probably not going to repeat yourself.
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Um, but it to surprise you before we catch up to Unearthed.
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um about the fact that people were still kind of caught off guard by Whole Earth and the whole vibe of it.
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>> Yeah, I wanted to really sort of show both sides of the coin uh in a relatively quick amount of time.
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>> Um so yeah, >> I felt like the production on Whole Earth was very much electronic, R&B, hip-hop, lots of autotune >> and I wanted to strip that back and create Unearthed, which was just the songs themselves, naked, no autotune. >> Yeah. Yeah.
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>> Little extra production.
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>> Little extra production.
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I mean, some of them are so lush, dude.
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I mean, it's like when you get the strings out and the people steal and everything, I was like, "All right, you're pressing all the buttons."
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It's, you know, there's a lot for me in it that that if I was to put on a playlist, I would be putting it next to like, you know, that kind of semi- acoustic Nigel Godrich era stuff, >> some Grantly Buffalo stuff, anything that just kind of widens the acoustic landscape.
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>> My roots are in Elliot Smith and >> songwriting and uh even some roots music and stuff like that.
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And being from South Carolina, from Columbia, shout out.
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I do feel like I wanted to bring that persona with me.
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And as Toro grows and reaches new audiences, I I feel like it's eventually you have to like reintroduce >> your beginning. >> Yeah.
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Reconnect with yourself in a really lovely way.
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Must be so nice to go to some degree full circle but with all the learning, you know, because it's like, you know, because you're sitting in the room when you're starting out and you're like trying to figure out how you find your identity out of your heroes, right?
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>> And and now you have a fully formed kind of idea of who you are as an artist or at least a growing one.
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>> And so it's like, oh man, like >> I could never have like attach like attacked the song with the arrangement like this. >> Yeah.
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>> Like 10 years ago the way I can now.
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I I totally feel like you have to just be yourself to the fullest no matter how embarrassing the genre or whatever you might think is embarrassing.
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>> Um yeah, really just hold on to who you that core person is.
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And um >> you can bring all the flashy stuff back eventually, but I I do appreciate >> being able to just go somewhere and play acoustic guitar.
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>> When did it start for you?
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What was the what was the I mean what is the the the origin literal ground zero of music for you as a kid?
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you know, I say it in the song CDR, but yeah, playing dive bars, little 250, 100 cap rooms, um, we have it on acoustic guitar basically.
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Uh, and then it did go into once I got into like Animal Collective or even like Flaming Lips, I would bring in electronic elements.
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And yeah, the band I was in at the time was more the Strokes vibes, very like Interpole sounding.
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And so I just wanted an outlet to do something a little more softer or emotional or just experimental.
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>> Must be really nice as well to have kind of been inspired by some of your contemporaries and then as often happens you find yourself touring with and playing with and hanging out with and learning from these people as well and like this kind of this this this gravity this draw manifestation in a way.
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>> It's one of those things you learn as you scale um and and grow and grow as an artist.
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Like I I do think um learning what circles to run in or learning how things just sort of work in the industry.
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I think a lot of people are intimidated by it.
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But I think if you surround yourself with good people, >> um >> it's all people, right?
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It's all about the relationships that you form.
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And it's like talent gets you so far, but at the end of the day, can you like be in a room with people and embrace their experience and your experience and be open?
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>> That's kind of the um the duty of a musician is to be one with the people, I think.
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So I I really feel like holding on to that as as like one of the core characteristics of the role I'm in.
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I I try to >> remember that, you know, I'm the one in between the company and the people.
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>> You're you're very much in the same >> Yeah. I feel Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. For sure.
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>> You're a rockstar, man. >> Dude, come on. I appreciate you.
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You know, we we like each other, but that's a given, right?
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We we speak off the air, but um I do want to not a little more about the making of this record.
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um in particular because the sound and the feel of it is just so warm and it's so immersive.
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Um where did you record it?
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Was this one you did at home?
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Do you have your studio set up at home? >> Right.
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So I do have one in my hometown in Berkeley and it's Yeah, it wasn't at my house.
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I I have sort of built out a studio over the years, but yeah, recorded it at that spot in Berkeley and it's humble.
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It's definitely like a more of a project studio.
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It's not soundproofed or anything, but >> like a corner with the right guitars and the right amps and the right tool to record it on.
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>> The right tools though, >> right?
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>> Um, so yeah, I feel like all of the sonic uh fidelity is there and I really wanted to make something that yeah, the hi-fi heads could nerd out on as well.
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>> It's so nerd out hi-fi. It's incredible, man. Absolutely.
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I mean, I feel like so much of your work, especially on this one, right?
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Like you're giving yourself like guardrails, like a sense of constraint.
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Do you find yourself like uh being able to flourish in that space?
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giving yourself some sort of like, you know, borders to work in.
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Do you feel like you can kind of like grow from that place? >> Definitely.
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I do feel like it's a I enjoy the challenge and I do think especially if I want to really ultimately wear that producer hat more than the songwriter hat.
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I do feel like showcasing my production skills outside of electronic is a goal. >> Yeah.
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>> And each record is me sort of pushing those boundaries or pushing what fans know about me. >> Yeah. Yeah.
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But that's an interesting balance between those two things, right?
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I think we assume that the producer and the artist are perfectly matched, but I reckon they push and pull. You tell me.
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I reckon they push and pull at each other. >> Oh, yeah.
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Cuz um production is usually tied more to what's trendy or um yeah, kind of what's popular and and the songwriting is always going to be >> timeless as you hope. Yeah. Yeah.
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That's what you want to get out of it.
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Uh let's talk about Hollywood and the and the unearthed version of Hollywood and just tell us the story about capturing that moment and and taking it from from whole earth into unearth. Yeah, I love that song.
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I love that you love that song >> very much.
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>> I um I really wanted to write a song that was more of like a um a a guiding beacon slash like story of when you come to Hollywood or when you get into this world or jump into that game that you really again have to find your own guiding uh your own guide.
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>> You can get lost so easy.
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I always say like I'm so glad I moved to Los Angeles with a family >> and I felt like I knew myself when I came here at least more than I would have as a kid.
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I think coming here as a young person is is it's tough >> which I've done and you know I started this Toro as a public thing like when I was 23.
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So, >> um I think yeah, learning that not everyone's got the same goals or learning what people's goals are, agendas are is healthy to to that's a healthy perspective to maintain.
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>> Thank god you're out of that though now to some degree. I mean to some degree.
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>> I mean no radar always on but my point is it's like you can you have much better ability to smell it and see it and know what it is because people only come to you because people know you now.
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It's not like prove yourself.
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The prove yourself is hard.
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I think it helps to have um a solid foundation and a solid core team.
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Everyone I've been with has been with me since the beginning and >> that's amazing.
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>> Yeah, they're the you know the round table.
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>> You just you're confidants.
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>> It's crazy how the emotion for me at least as a listener feels different listening to both and you would think obviously because the arrangement or the pace or the slower the kind of instrumentation but no the storytelling changes in a strange way.
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>> You know it's really fun that I got to sort of remove the feature vocals and just re sing them myself.
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For example, for Hollywood, it was Ben Gibber that wrote that last verse. that guy. No one likes that guy. >> Who is that guy? >> I love him.
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>> No, no, Ben has been one of my uh idols since I was I started guitar.
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So, um him, Rivers, Cuomo, Isaac Brock, those are my guitar gods.
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So, >> yeah, I really got a chance to even um even with Duckworth, like to sing his verse over in my voice and take it to another world.
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I got to experiment personally with working with topline writers, which I've never done. >> Wow.
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So, in a way, I kind of tricked myself. Uh, and I liked it.
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I was like, actually, I don't mind other people writing the lyrics.
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I could see myself doing more of that.
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>> How refreshing to get to a point where you actually can take a little bit of the pressure off yourself. >> Yeah.
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>> And enjoy different parts of the process.
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Cuz that goes back to that producer artist thing of like, man, how much time do I really have to to be able to apply myself to get the right emotion out of my vocal performance because I'm really concerned about the competing frequencies between the bass and the >> Absolutely.
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And if both writers can tap into what the emotion of the song is supposed to be, then it's there's no issue. >> Yeah. All right. Pinkerton, yes or no? >> Oh, yes. >> Yes. Thank you. Yes. Okay.
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Number one with a bullet. >> Number one.
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>> That's number one for me. >> Number one.
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Number one with a bullet. >> All right, man.
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I'm just saying like it gets complicated amongst Weezer fans.
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Like some people are still mad at we at Rivers out that era.
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>> I mean, I'm going to college era.
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They get really shitty about it.
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>> There's a postmad and a premat.
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I mean, that's really the dividing line.
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>> I mean, so good though.
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That album, it's so messed up.
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I mean, he was like so and he's he's openly said this to me, so I can definitely like quote him. Sure.
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He was like, "Man, I was so weird back then."
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>> Weird is good, though.
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>> Weird is really good, but I mean, he was weird.
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I think >> you know what makes you snap out of the weird is parenting. >> That's true.
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And I think that probably I don't know.
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I don't want to speak for him, but I think also transcendental meditation.
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He spoke to me on the record about that.
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I think that was a big thing for Rivers when he suddenly realized >> coding is also a huge thing for him, right? Like no, I'm serious. Like he Yeah.
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He finds there's a very uh spiritual religious component to him and he's just like he codes.
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like recreationally and he's like no that is a form of meditation for me. >> Yeah.
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I the first time I ever heard of an ashram was reading about rivers. >> Yeah.
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>> Um and his name is also very like nature oriented and like I yeah that was my first introduction to alternative spirituality and and living and and involved in getting it involved in your music. >> I don't know man.
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It's it's one of my great joys seeing bands like Weezer just continue to grow.
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>> No I they're like a band to pay attention to. Definitely.
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My dad showed me then back in like when I was in fifth grade, I think right when the blue album came out and he's always my dad's always had a really good ear with like who's going to have longevity. >> Amazing.
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>> Um, >> was your dad in music or he just loved music? >> He just loved music.
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Yeah, he's he Yeah, he's a in the banking world and >> Yeah, he's got good taste.
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>> Yeah, he's Yeah, the record collection, my parents record collection is is very tasteful. >> Amazing.
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And so when it came time for you to actually apply yourself to making music and say, "Hey, look, you know, this isn't just something I'm doing in my bedroom.
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like I kind of maybe want to choose this over other things. >> Encouraged. >> It was supported.
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You know, I had to I did it was it's a funny story.
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I told the same day I told my dad I wanted to quit playing football. >> Yeah.
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>> And I was this is a freshman in high school and I was like, these kids are getting too big for me.
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I'm only like 5'7, like 100 something pounds.
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>> And I was like, I want to quit football, but but instead after school, I I would like to take guitar lessons.
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>> And so, yeah, that was it.
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>> And he was like, man, >> he's like, okay. >> He's like, cool.
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They get he was like, "Yeah, they've always been down with music.
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We've always had a piano in the house."
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And I think like a month or so later, my mom picked up a guitar from the pawn shop.
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And yeah, >> see, that's beautiful, man.
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I, you know, and I think that especially the way that the arts are going and it's >> we need, you know, we definitely need that that encouragement from inside the home to continue because the encouragement outside the home is dwindling.
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That whole, you know, like we're losing >> we're losing like youth centers, we're losing arts programs and government funding for the arts.
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It's like it's being taken away.
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The fact that y'all built this studio is is really impressive and I wanted to make that opening party. Thanks for the invite.
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Yeah, I do think like it's um this is this is a really big deal that you guys are supporting the arts this way.
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>> Thanks for noticing, man.
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I mean, we feel the same way >> doing this.
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A lot of companies are doing that. >> Yeah.
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Yeah, we feel the same way. We're very lucky.
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I mean, you know, just to kind of reflect your shirt.
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>> You know, Apple are very, you know, dedicated to you and the idea of what you want to say.
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Um, and you know, not just with the tools that you get to use in order to make the music, but thank goodness we get a chance to actually talk to you after you've made the music, you know, >> definitely >> cuz man, I dude, this is like where my curiosity lives.
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Like it lives in these conversations.
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Every now and then someone will say to me like, man, you know, you've talked to so many artists.
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Do you ever feel like you're covering old Grant?
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I'm like, no, cuz everybody's different and every story is different and every song is different.
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>> Half of the work is making the record and then the other half is just talking about it and pushing it after it's out and pushing it after it's out for 10 years.
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So, like I had to take a step back myself cuz, you know, I I'm kind of go go go go with my records and recently I I wanted to sort of >> give some time for things to breathe and to actually take care of the back catalog, for example, and start doing these 10 year anniversary releases. >> Yeah.
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How's that feeling going back and reflecting on things?
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reflecting on things? the whole um releasing the instrumentals thing was just an idea I I sort of wanted to move forward with just as a producer and as a a lover of sampling and I've always appreciated sampling, you know, instrumental music >> and I think producers appreciate that
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move, but also I I personally think that that's what allows um certain Mottown bands or bands from the 70s to live on is that the fact that they're sampled >> um and hip-hop is able to keep pushing or even house music, electronic music is able to push whatever act um forward through sampling. >> And so you encourage it. If there's any
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>> And so you encourage it.
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If there's any producers out there to hear something in your music like go for it, take it. >> Please sample me.
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>> But that's but that's beautiful statement because you know we were around I wasn't you were you were not I was around when sampling took its hit for the first time.
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>> You know 89 into 90 really it's 3t high rising Paul's boutique.
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Those are the two albums which just got everybody up and up in arms about.
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We need to structure this because these things are so filled with other people's music and they're successful records.
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I mean boutique took a while but that was like when you know sampling sampling we need to put a structure around.
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Okay, I get that >> rights holders deserve to be paid no matter how their music is being incorporated.
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But for a while there it was like it was beyond like the fair trade of like renumeration.
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It was like sampling bad.
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>> It was just like a bad word like don't sample. I'm so glad.
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I think we've got to a point now where generationally we've come around and artists like yourself are like, "No, I grew up sampling, so why would I not want to be sampled?"
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>> It's it's like collaging.
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It's like being mad that you didn't take that or someone being mad that you didn't take that photograph that you used in a collage.
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It's like it's the collage. So, >> um >> Yeah.
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>> But yeah, I do think like uh the kids are they're hip to sampling now and they're figuring it out. >> Yeah.
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>> Yeah. even the adults >> when you wake up in the morning and you've and and you know you've got your life going on around you now a beautiful life you're building for yourself and it's amazing um how does how does music present itself where does inspiration come from and is there any regularity to it or how do you know it's there and it's time to work
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>> for a lot of my approach and philosophy is like uh the best way I can put it is like keeping it local like I I pay attention to the local music scene the venues people that throw shows I think that's important I think it's good to have just coffee with people so that's that's the main thing is um you can talk to people face to face I think is the best way no matter where you are in your career. >> Tell us a story about Tuesday the
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>> Tell us a story about Tuesday the version this version of Tuesday. >> Nice. Yeah.
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Um, Tuesday was sort of like my response to um, being the listener, the type of artist or listener or music appreciator who dabbles mostly in the underground world or indie world, but then you got your guilty pleasure of pop music.
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>> And usually it's like some sort of earworm that makes its way to you.
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But um yeah, even the the next layer behind that is that even the pop artist next to the indie artist, they're they're both writing about real human emotions.
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And I think um whether it be a breakup that's in the spotlight or >> not in the spotlight, I think this is what that song speaks to.
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>> Are we going into our just straight up pop star era now?
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Is that what's happening? >> I mean, almost. >> Yeah, a little bit. >> Almost. Almost.
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I mean, truthfully, and I don't want to sound weird when I say this, but I think, you know, it should be recognized when it's truthful.
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You look really healthy and great. >> You really do, man.
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I mean, you look amazing.
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You, you know, your whole vibe is like very very at ease. Appreciate that.
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>> So, isn't that really nice to get to a point where, you know, like you said, you go go for so long and then maybe you pop out the out of something and you get to take a look around and go, "Shit, this is a real and I >> I'll always have something to prove, but I don't know if I have to prove that." >> Definitely.
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No, there's, you know, a good 10 year cocoon that you're in.
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And then I mean I've been in this thing for like 15 years now.
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So hopefully it keeps going.
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But at the same time um you learn that you can only sustain if you have good health and you just got to watch what you consume and eat and even listen to or you got to get you got to sweat every day basically.
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>> You talked about it with longevity, right?
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You look at a band like Weezer like they're not at the afters afters, you know what I mean?
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They're they're warming up doing yoga and drinking green tea before they hit the stage. >> Yeah.
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Get the mind right first. >> Yeah. >> Yeah.
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Yeah, but it was it took a long time to even, you know, I was coming home with like back sores and back acne even. Sorry, TMI.
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But like, yeah, you just like you're not sure how is this happening on tour.
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Oh, it's because I'm eating Burger King every day. >> Yeah. Yeah.
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I'm sustaining through convenience and not actually through thoughtfulness.
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And like I think that this this does it is a lifelong decision if you're committed to it.
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You you you are a business owner when you become an artist.
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You're your own business.
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And you know, you don't get to rely on the on the sort of matrix of capitalism to feed you at a certain time of the day.
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It's like, man, if you don't do it yourself, you will fall apart.
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And it's hard because even there's a lyric in the album where it's like, I'm going to skip a meal and finish it and keep working.
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>> You know, you reflect on, you're a very honest writer.
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You reflect on that kind of thing of like, where is the balance here? >> Totally. Yeah.
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I do think um that's a if your favorite artist ever dips out, that's probably what they're working on is just >> mental and physical.
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How rewarding was it to finish this and and to think about what you want to do next?
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Because to some degree it must have been really nice to connect the dots to your point about where you started now with the ability to be able to make a fully formed beautiful acoustic record. >> Thank you.
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Yeah, it's been a dream to actually make a record like this and ever since I I released the Sand Hills EP, the response has been so positive and I just wanted to like elevate that sound somehow and make it less lowfi.
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But >> yeah, the next project, you know, I'm I'm always sort of on this pendulum between electronic and traditional traditional acoustic music or whatever.
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So yeah, it's always swinging.
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Um >> I am working on electronic music, >> but Mahal to me felt very much like it was sort of I don't know, man.
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I don't know if that was either in a strange way.
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>> No, I mean Mahal was basically what for part two. >> Yeah. Yeah.
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>> What for is like literally asking the question what for and Mahal is love. So >> yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
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>> Um those are sister albums. >> Yeah, man. I love that. um so much.
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I just love the way that you sort of uh the chemistry of the instrumentation on that record is just so special and it's like it's like ordered chaos that album. >> Thank you.
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That was the first record I got like multiple drummers and basists to sort of um re yeah reinterpret the parts and >> really find like a locking a band that locks together.
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They're actually the live band at the moment. So phenomenal.
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Uh how much of a gear nerd are you? Like how many guitars?
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>> He's staring at your mixer right now. What is that? Oh, is that the new SP? What?
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>> So, you're a real gear nerd.
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>> Yeah, I was like, I've never seen that before.
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>> Um, so I mean, do you have like a I mean, I don't want to get too granular about it, but in terms of the instruments that you use for each project or each do you search for something new to inspire the music as you're playing it, or do you do you have a regular guitar collection that you go to?
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What do you do >> occasionally?
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Yeah, I think a new tool or instrument in the mix is always a good start.
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>> Um, for Unear it was the guitar.
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Actually, I got this 1972 >> uh Gibson acoustic. >> It's so wide. It's so wide.
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I know you mix it that way, but it sounds >> It sounds like it takes up the room.
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You know how like not all acoustic guitars do that.
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>> It's got a lot of butt to it.
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It's Yeah, it's a huge dreadnot >> and uh I I nerded out and tried to figure out what guitar Elliot Smith had and I found the exact year model and I was like, "That's what I want to get." >> Whoa, that is gutery. That's insane.
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>> Yeah, that's the nerdiest thing I've ever done.
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I I think >> there is something that happens when you pick up an instrument though and it feels right.
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I fully have felt that when I've gone into into guitar shops or an instrument and picked it up and and held it and I'm like oh yeah, there's songs here.
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>> You know, Rivers let me play the acoustic guitar that was on the blue album and I was and I immediately started playing My Name is Jonas.
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I was like, >> "Is this the guitar from the album?" He was like, "Yeah."
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I was like, "Oh, I should put this down."
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>> Like, why'd you let me hold this?
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>> Do you Does he Does he play that acoustic guitar on stage when he's doing My Name is Jonas? Probably not. >> I think so.
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You might have been the last person to play My Name is Jonas on the My Name is Jonas guitar. >> Thanks, Rivers.
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>> It's kind of sacrilegious. I agree. I'm only kidding.
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That's amazing that you went to it, though.
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And when you started playing that riff, I'm super nerding out on this.
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When you started playing that riff on that guitar, was it kind of intuitive?
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>> Yeah, immediately you can hear the way it rings, like certain strings, certain open notes.
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And uh yeah, I I asked him, but yeah, it's it's really cool how that works with gear, like even a piano that belonged to somebody.
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I feel like there's the magic is still there.
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Like the the piano at Abby Road, for example, like >> I got to play that >> just in passing >> immediately.
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The Beatles, you hear every song that they used it on. It's so insane. man.
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What a beautiful life this is. >> It's cool. >> It's really cool.
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I mean, football was a thing, but you picked up the guitar, man, and it's it's sent you on an incredible life's journey. >> Yeah.
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I I really appreciate every every part of it.
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>> Do you Are you a reflective person? >> I'd say so. Yeah.
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I >> every day I kind of just take a step back, stare at the sky, >> get my my uh my stretching in or whatever.
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But yeah, I try to reflect daily. >> Amazing.
21:41
Dude, you already know how we feel.
21:44
We were so excited for you to come in um and and hang out and talk and to play for us is is an even bigger dream.
21:51
You have so many fans at the at Apple and Apple Music. But thanks. >> I'm right at the top.
21:55
It's so good to see you, bro.
21:57
>> Good to see you as well.
21:57
Good to see all and uh thanks for having me again.