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your dating out profile is sort of like your billboard you are telling a story about who you are am I ready to date who should I date should I keep dating this person should we move in together should we get married each of these is a
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pivotal point in your life the thing that we think makes us unlovable is often what makes somebody feel comfortable around us but if we truly feel like we're unlovable we never open up and give somebody the chance to see that for themselves the sooner you learn
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how to date the sooner you can stop dating it's not about gathering information it's about having an experience with them imagine that you spend 50 years with someone the day that you meet is 0.55% of your total time with them you have to shoot your shot you have to
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approach people in public you have to take a risk [Music] I want to start at the beginning which would be a first date great you've reframed this from I want to find my soulmate to do I want to spend more time with this person walk me through that a
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lot of people on a first date put so much pressure on themselves they're really thinking about could I spend the rest of my life with this person I'm really busy would I want to see them again I'm going to treat this like a job interview where I asked them what's your
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fiveyear plan and what did you study in college and really interview in this person for the role of spouse and then of course people don't feel any spark or any excitement and so I like to take the pressure off of a first date and say
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this is really an opportunity to have an experience with somebody else to have some fun and then if you have a good time you can see them again and you don't have to overthink it and think is this person who I want to spend the rest
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of my life with so I've been guilty of this in terms of the spark you know you walk away from first date and you're like yeah they're a nice person maybe they're boring or you didn't feel that instant romantic connection and what do you think about the spark I mean we all
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look for the spark yeah so the spark is very exciting who doesn't want to have that feeling of fireworks and instant chemistry with someone but through the work I've done I've actually come to see the spark as a bit of my Nemesis because
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I have coaching clients who say to me Logan I went out with this guy he was great we had a good time oh I'm not going to see him again like what are you talking about and they say I just didn't feel the spark and so in our culture people have come to expect that if you
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don't have that instant feeling then it must not be your person and instead I teach my coaching clients about the three myths of the spark so the first myth is that if you don't have the spark then it can't grow and that's absolutely
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not true so we know from research that only 11% of people feel love at first sight and that means many people are getting to know someone over time maybe they live in the same apartment building they work in the same place and that attraction and appreciation grows over
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time so the spark can definitely grow the second myth is that if you feel the spark it's definitely a good thing and actually sometimes certain people give us the spark because we actually don't know how they feel about us so sort of
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that hot cold feeling makes us Wonder does he like me does he not like me and through that we end up feeling what we think of as butterflies or chemistry but it's actually anxiety and it's actually alarm bells in our head going off do they like me do they not like me am I
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accepted and so sometimes it's actually a sign of either the person giving you a hot cold feeling or it can be somebody who's a narcissist I've also found that let's say I go to an event and I talk to some of my girlfriends later and I'll say oh I really like that guy we really
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hit it off and then they're like wait I really hit it off with that guy and we realized we all had what felt like unique connection to this person but they were actually just really Sparky and I imagine you meet a lot of people through doing this that are really
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Sparky and so certain people just give off that spark and it's not about your Dynamic with them it's about who they are and then the third myth is that if you have a spark the relationship is viable we also know that that's not true
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just because you met the right way doesn't mean that it's the right relationship and so you can have a very Sparky beginning but it can fizzle out quickly and you shouldn't stay in the relationship because you had a really good we met story and so my antidote to
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the spark is going after the Slow Burn and the Slow Burn is somebody who you like them more and more as you get to know them they may not be instantly the most charismatic person that you've ever met but they're really a quality person
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and they really grow on you and not because you're settling but because you're looking for love in a different package than you originally thought you're not just looking for the life of the party person that's immediately as charismatic and so I feel like I'm
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married to a slowburn I met my husband in college we met again at Google a number of years later and now we've been together for almost 10 years and so he's somebody where I really feel like as I got to know him more and more I liked him more and more and so I really
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encourage people to go after the slowburn but wait a second because what ends up happening in this is like you out on a date and you're like maybe maybe not and back in you know 1950 you'd have that maybe maybe it was good enough to go out again and then you'd
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see the person again but now you go home and you you pick up your app and you open hinge you open whatever app you're using and you had a average but maybe slightly above average date that could be a slow burn and now you got 16 new
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messages from all these people who are more exciting and how do you do a Slow Burn in that case when all of these people oh like look at this person they're hot oh they want to text me and they want to see me and you know this guy or girl that I just went out with is
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like oh they set something up next week but that's the Slow Burn how do you date in this environment yes so when I wrote my book I have a chapter called make the second date the default and this was influenced by one of my mentors Dan
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arielli and the idea here was that if you go on a first date and you think about it as I'm going to be a Val ating you the whole time and you're going to either win a second date or not it puts you in this evaluative mindset instead I want people to be in this experiential
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mindset where they're asking themselves how the moment feels for them if they're connecting with the person and so in the book I say assume that every first date you go on you'll go on a second date and that will help you identify the slow
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burns more and to really take the pressure off the first date well since the book has come out I feel like that advice is not that realistic people are busy people sometimes feel like I had no connection with that person I'm not going to go on a second day with them so
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I have changed my advice since the book came out and instead of thinking about it as make the second date the default my go-to advice here is really to do the postdate 8 so the postdate 8 is a series of questions that I came up with for a
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client who was having a hard time deciding if she wanted to see someone again and also somebody who was having a hard time spotting the slowburn so when you finish the date you look at this you can have a screenshot on your phone or you know memorize the questions and they
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ask you things like how did I feel in my body during the day did I feel stiff did I feel relaxed did this person make me laugh did this person make me feel heard did I feel curious about the person and probably the most important one what
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side of me did they bring out because whatever side of you you are with that person is who you'll be for a big majority of your life if you end up with that person and so the post8 8 is a great way to see if it was really a dud and you were 0% interested forget it
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don't go on the second date but if there was maybe not the most Charisma that you've ever encountered or there's been people that you've been more attracted to in the past it's fine to acknowledge that but to think there was a seed of
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something that was planted that I'd like to give another chance to and so the post 88 is a great way to see when there's potential and to spot those slowburn people talk to me a little bit more about what side they brought out in you I've never thought of it that way
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but looking back through some of my dates through this lens I'm like oh I was Defensive I was uh confrontational I was yeah go through that a little bit more yeah I'm glad that you're double clicking into that because it's really
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something that I think about in a lot of areas of my life so when I was just making this career shift into the work that I do now I met with a lot of different people to learn from them and I'm not going to say her name but there was one person in particular that
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whenever I met with her I would just come home and sort of collapse into the couch and want to watch TV for the next few hours I was like what's going on with me and I was like there's something about the way that she communicates that makes me feel really small and anxious
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and like I don't know what I'm doing and not good enough there was just something about the words that she used or the question that she was asking and so that's a platonic situation or you know it's about career but in that moment I understood I
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don't really enjoy being around this person because she brings out a side of me that's insecure then I think about my friend Michaela who's one of my favorite people in the world when I'm around her she laughs a lot she makes me feel
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hilarious we want to stay up all night talking because she makes me feel creative and generative and so I really will do whatever I can to be in the same room as her because she brings out a side of myself that I love and so when people are dating especially as they get
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older their checklist of what they think they need get longer and longer so that checklist might look like must be financially independent must own their own home Must Be This Tall must want exactly this lifestyle and so when they go into that date they are really
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looking at those things which are often who that person is on paper and then they ignore how they feel around that person because sure you need some basic biographical data to decide if you want to go out with someone or not but once you're on that that date it's really
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about paying attention to who am I around them I love that and and that applies to all areas of your life is it your job in that moment to dissect why you're having that response or is it to just I just don't want to be around this person and that's okay I mean my cheeky
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answer would be it's my job as your dating coach to tell you that but no I think that in life it really is great to dig into things like that so it might be I'm just remembering this story where like early on when I shifted into doing
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the dating and relationship stuff I met up with this guy and I thought it was like a peer-to-peer conversation and when I got there he kind of leaned back and said so what can I do for you and it was like that one statement kind of created a power Dynamic which was like I
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have power and I can help you and I remember it really threw me off and so when I went home and I didn't feel good and I reflected on it I was like oh like maybe our expectations weren't the same going in in to it or the person who did
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the intro didn't set us up for success and so I made changes so that in the future when I had an intro like that I was clear with the person introducing us you know what our goals were things like that or I find that if I'm really tired
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and I push myself to go to an event I may not have a good time there because I don't have energy to give and so I think for everyone being more in touch with who you are how you show up in different situations what personality traits trigger you to feel more anxious or
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insecure all of that is data that just helps you be a happier person and so something that I really promote people do is date like a scientist which is this idea of have hypotheses so a hypothesis could be I need to date somebody with a graduate degree but then
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test that hypothesis maybe what you actually care about is intellectual curiosity and somebody who listens to the knowledge project not somebody who has a master's degree or PhD and so really having a hypothesis testing it and then being willing to be willing to
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be proven right or wrong I think if we all live like a scientist and date like a scientist we learn so much about ourselves we push ourselves and we actually wind up in a much happier place than if we just follow all the assumptions in our head I want to double
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click on the date like a scientist thing a little bit and maybe I'll bring an anonymous friend into this who runs a business very successful very ambitious very wealthy in theory he checks all these boxes that women would want but in
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reality I mean his saying is they don't want what comes with that is that what do you mean by dating like a scientist in the checklist and maybe I'm Loosely working around this yes so I would say a majority of my clients at this point are sort of more
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powerful male CEOs and I feel like it is interesting to just hear you know women are excited about what they have access to but then they may not understand that this person Works 18 hours a day or that maybe this person has a chip on their shoulder because when they weren't
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successful they felt like they didn't get a lot of attention and so I feel like the unique problems of that situation are something that I've dealt with so just breaking down date like a scientist when I work with people in my coaching in my courses people walk in
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with assumptions of what they need so it might be I need to date somebody who six feet are taller because I'm a taller woman and that's what makes me feel feminine so then I might say to them hey in the United States only 14% of men are
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6 feet or taller so now you are eliminating 86% of the male population you've been actively dating for 12 years this has not worked out for you so far why don't you change your filter on the dating apps be willing to date somebody who's shorter and see maybe what you
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actually care about is somebody who's confident where your height doesn't feel like a factor maybe you'll end up with somebody a lot shorter than you and this is what happened to a man and woman that I know because it's not about how tall
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the guy is it's about how they make you feel and so her dating like a scientist moment would be changing her filters on the app dating some men who are shorter seeing if she can feel attracted to them and attractive with them and then
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understanding it wasn't height that was the deal breaker it was confidence or how attracted she was to them and how attractive they made her that six feet thing is like such a killer I'm like 5'11 in three4 it's like what do you do do you say six feet or do you do 5'11 in
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which case every woman has this like six feet the height thing is really interesting so I would say over the last few years the posts of mine that have gone the most viral are reals where I've posted about this stat because in the
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comments you have a lot of women saying well guys lie about their height anyway and then guys say things like yeah you should change the hype filter and then women say well you filter based on weight and so anyway it's just really interesting to see how much this bothers
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people and I wish that I could kind of shout from the rooftops to everyone and say imagine that you were in a bar and you were sitting next to somebody and you're both sitting on stools and you have a 45-minute conversation that is
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incredible it's deep it's Soulful it's mind-blowing and at the end of the day the guys stands up and he's 57 are you telling me that you're not giving him your number now no of course you're going to give him your number because you just saw who this person was and
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what an incredible connection you had and in that moment you're not thinking height first you're thinking connection first and I really want people to change their framework and to understand yes the filters exist but you are filtering
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out so many great potential connections why not date like a scientist see if these things that you think are deal breakers are really deal breakers when most of the time they're not and move them to the pet peeves or nice to have column it strikes me as the difference
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between how we used to date how we date now so we used to date in the way that like a guy would call on you you might not know him well you might have friends you might have met through your parents or something but you don't know much
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about him and then you spend time with him so your first impressions but now we're filtering before you even get to that point we're filtering based on a dating profile we're filtering based on pictures we're filtering based on politics we're filtering based on all of
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these things I want to come back to the spark thing is there a difference between the spark and lust I've thought about this a lot because you know when you write a book you're writing it alone maybe a few people read it your editor reads it and then when it's out into the
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world you really get to see what takes off with people and so I would say a few things have taken off and one of them is this concept of [ __ ] the spark and so people have really strong reactions when I say that because they feel like oh
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Logan's telling me I shouldn't be attracted to the person or it doesn't matter Logan's telling me to settle wait I said [ __ ] the spark and then I met someone I wasn't interested in and I dated them for six months and it didn't work out and so I really want to talk
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about what the spark is the spark is a huge emphasis on instant chemistry and instant connection versus allowing it to grow over time I would say that lust is about attraction and a lot of times you know I want to have sex with this person I
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hope this person wants to have sex with me and I think being sexually attracted to someone is of course something that you should look for in a relationship but it's slightly different from the spark which is this overall feeling of like when I meet someone I want to be
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around them more and more and the big message I'm trying to get across here is that that feeling of chemistry can grow over time what should a first date look like to maximize information gathering or connection I guess yeah you know I
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will even push on that question and say I don't think it's about information gathering imagine that you spend 50 years with someone the day that you meet is 0.55% of your total time with them and so it's not about gathering information it's about having an experience with
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them so one thing that I've done through my research is look at people who are consistently getting asked on second or third dates look at people who people really are drawn to and when I talk to these people it's not what you might think they're the tallest people
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they're the hottest people it's often that they're very fun they meet up with you on a date and they tell you a funny story or they have a silly interaction with the bartender or they tell you about what happened at work that day and the funny situation that they gone into
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there's something about them that's very vibrant and Lively and when people are around them they feel like they are also having an experience they're not just exchanging information and so I think if we think that a first date is really
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about I need to leave and know your biography that's not really fun for either person if it instead shifts to what I was talking about our first date is about seeing how does it feel to be around the person what side of me do they bring out those dates end up being
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so much more successful because even if they don't lead to a relationship they lead to you knowing how would it feel to be with this person like that a lot what are the indicators that I should be looking for on a date that would lead to
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emotional connection so one thing that I've looked at a lot is this idea of what matters more and less than we think for long-term relationship success so a lot of the things that people think matter more than they do include things like looks and money so of course looks
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matters we just talked about lust you want to feel attracted to the person but I wouldn't give anyone the advice of try to date or marry the hottest person that you've ever met or the person maybe who you've had the hottest sex with in your
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life because like many things in life our brains adapt to them over time and so if you think about some of the most beautiful celebrities in the world there are often people kind of known to humanity who have cheated on them and so
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it's like if even these people that are considered the most attractive by cultural standards are being cheated on there's this idea that people adapt over time to somebody's looks and even if someone's really attractive we get used to that over time the same thing is true
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with money I know this amount of money has changed over the last few years but you know they used to say happiness doesn't change over $75,000 now I think they've raised it but it's this idea that whatever amount of money you have
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you get used to a few more things that matter less than people think they do so people think we need to have all the same Hobbies if I love wine I want someone who loves wine too and you don't actually have to share the same Hobbies you just need to support the other
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person's hobbies and have them support yours so that you can continue investing in that Hobby and you don't have to have the same personality sometimes people will say I have a big personality I love to go out I want to find a woman who
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does the same thing and I'm like no way two of you in a room two of you at a dinner party two of you in a relationship that's way too much I want you to find somebody who grounds you and it's often about being complimentary versus being the same so that was really
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the category of matters less than we think it does for the things that matter more than people think they do so the first one is loyalty really is this somebody who will stick by you of course that's a hard thing to find out on a first date but one proxy for that that I
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found is asking people about old friendships people who have friendships from different phases of their life do they hang on to people or when they move do they let those go or are they social climbing and always trying to trade up
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so does this person keep friends from different phases of their lives another one is emotional stability and that's also hard to figure out on a first date but how does this person deal with adversity how does this person deal with frustration are they somebody who can
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sort of pause and think before they react another one is the ability to make hard decisions together so early in dating you're maybe not making a lot of hard decisions together but pay attention to how you talk about things like if one person wants to meet up near
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their house the other person wants to meet up near their house are you debating it are you compromising it are they listening to your needs there's so many ways to really perceive who someone is if you're actually looking for these
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things and then the one that I've been talking about which is what side of you they bring out and really thinking about the dynamic itself and that understanding that a relationship is not about two instruments on their own but it's about the music that you're making
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together and really paying attention to almost this third object of the dynamic between the two of you as opposed to just who that person is on their own I had a friend who made this comment will we just adjust to right what we have and
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then we kind of like we are human so we we yearn for something different than what we have yeah my husband is very scientific and he's worked in a lot of different labs and when we first started dating early on he said some quote to me or he he was telling me about some study
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which is like there's a male rat in a cage and they put in a female rat and at first they have sex but over time the male rat gets sick of having sex with that female rat but then if you keep replacing the rat with new female rats
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that male rat will have sex with those female rats until it literally passes out from exhaustion and so it's just this idea of yes a lot of what is sexually exciting to people is novelty and so instead of being disappointed or frustrated by that in a monogamous
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long-term relationship you can just think about the fact that I acknowledge that that will happen and so I'm not going to spend all of my you know partner choosing coins just on looks because that's not a good long-term strategy do you think we've sort of
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broken dating in a way where I I mean I've been on dates with people we all know people who are I wish people would come up to me and ask me out I wish I didn't have to use a dating app and my defense of you know thinking immediately in this is like Society has taught guys
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not to approach women anymore what's your reaction to that this is something that I'm thinking about a lot specifically with Jen Z and Jen Alpha so I was recently speaking to somebody she's a 16-year-old entrepreneur and she's trying to deliver help for teen
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daters and she said by far the number one thing that she gets questions about is how to deal with rejection and so I am genuinely concerned that because of different societal factors because because of people who maybe lost out on
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some social skills during the pandemic because of people who live a lot of their lives online there is not that rejection resilience that many of us need in life so if you want your dream job you need to go out there get a lot of nose and go after it you don't just
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sit at home waiting for a LinkedIn recruiter to message you about your dream doob that that doesn't happen you have to make it happen and the same thing is true with dating is that you have to shoot your shot you have to approach people in public you have to
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take a risk and so I'm encountering a lot of people who are very afraid of rejection and are not taking those risks and I think that it's leading to fewer relationships I'm a make it happen kind of person in work and in life I also know that that can come off as
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aggressive or assertive H how do you deal with that that's interesting so what's a scenario that you feel like could come across the wrong way well I'll make it happen is like you have a great first date or something and then you're instantly like on to the next
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date you know you're like I want to see you again how about tomorrow and then the other person I don't know like I feel like we're just in a society now where you know you're supposed to wait till tomorrow almost and I hate personally waiting I'm sure there's
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other people out there like me too where it's like no you're in charge you have agency and you can make the world happen I love this question because I think it speaks to a really real phenomenon where people are exper experiencing excitement
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about somebody but they feel like they need to hold it back to seem cool and so I love to talk to people about attachment theory has that come up on your podcast before no let's go into it okay so attachment theory is something
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in the world of relationship science that's truly backed by the research it's something that first came about around 60 years ago with someone named John bulby and this research was originally done with children to see their attachments to their primary caregiver
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but now we have an entire field of adult attachment specifically around relationships and so there are people who are anxiously attached what happens for them is their story of love is that I'm going to chase you I have to convince you to like me you might pull
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away and we're going to have this Chase Dynamic and that I'm constantly worried that you're not going to be interested in me and you're going to disappear so how those people show up in relationships and I know because I really was one of these daters is if you
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don't hear back from somebody you start spiring they met somebody else they don't like me anymore you send a bunch of text to try to reconnect with them and you're often just in this danger zone where you're not being the person that you want to be because you're
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trying to have this reconnection moment you think somebody's going to pull it then there's people who are avoid and attached they sort of have the opposite experience their version of Love is I'm going to be smothered I'm going to lose
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my Independence and when they get too close to somebody they are the ones pulling away so they're the ones you know great sleep over on a Saturday night Sunday morning they wake up the person hasn't left and they're like damn should I call her an Uber oh my God
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that's me that's you yeah you have that feeling of like I need my space well I need my space and I don't want to get hurt there's like an element of vulnerability absolutely what you're talking about is complete true it's not that those people don't want to be in
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Intimate connection it's that the fear of being smothered or the fear of being hurt causes them to pull away I'm going to reject you before you reject me and so for the avoidant attached people who think that they're going to be smothered
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and then for the anxiously attached people who think they're going to be abandoned what ends up happening is they often date each other and they reinforce this idea so I think that love is a chase you think that love is being smothered so when I go after you you
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pull away that reinforces mine and that reinforces yours and anxious attached and avoidant people keep dating each other in this anxious avoidant Loop that leaves both people feeling pretty unhappy but there's a third type of securely attached people and these are
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people who have a healthy relationship with Independence and with intimacy I want to be close to you but I also respect and need my alone time and so often the way that people get out of the anxious avoidant Loop is they either
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become more secure themselves or they date someone who's secure and so that's what happened for me after you know 10 years of chasing after different people being rejected being disappointed thinking well if only I could prove my value you then this guy would like me
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instead when I dated somebody who was Secure it broke a lot of those patterns and we formed what I feel like is my first really healthy relationship what happens is 50% of the population is secure which sounds like a good thing but those people are so good at being
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relationships that they often get snatched up and you have the anxious avoidant people dating each other but in the example that you described it can actually be very secure for somebody to follow up after a date and say hey I really enjoyed getting to know you I'd
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love to see you again when are you free and in that moment somebody who's used to dating somebody who's avoidant might be like whoa they're coming on too strong or that's so obvious they're so obviously interested that's boring but a
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ton of the work that I do is training people to identify secure partners and to reestablish them in their heads not as boring but as secure and to know that those are the people to go after so sometimes that person who pulls away is exciting that Sparky feeling because you
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don't know they like you or not but instead really honoring the person who says I like you I'm interested when can I see you again and so the SL tweak that I would have to yours is not I like you can I see you tomorrow that does kind of
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feel a little bit intense but being clear about like hey that was a really great date I feel like we really connected I'd love to see you again and then like working together to come up with the next date and a lot of dating that people Miss is that it's about
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matching somebody's momentum and matching somebody's speed so it's a dance where I take a step forward and then you need to take a step forward if I take 10 steps forward you might feel overwhelmed and take a step back so just
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paying attention to are you always the one reaching out are you always the one making plans there needs to be momentum matching for the speed to feel right to both people so last year I realized something was getting in the way of myself what sparked this in our
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conversation was freedom and so I decid deed to do therapy for the first time as my adult life as a single person I I did marriage counseling as well uh before my divorce but it was so fascinating to me because one of the things that led to
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this was I wouldn't accept compliments from people oh the minute somebody started to say something positive my brain would turn off and I would instantly move to uh the groceries what's next in the conversation I'd stop listening yeah and what came out of this is that
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compliments in my body I had somehow Associated compliments with power over me because at some point they were taken away and so it was like I'll compliment you as long as you do what I want and then all of a sudden and so I would associate these things and so I
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developed this really strong aversion to people having power over me and so loss of freedom is a great example of like how that manifests itself in dating where it's like no like that's really hard in dating context because a default to this state of I want to continue to
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do the things that I'm doing and the way I'm continuing to do them and that makes it really hard to to find somebody and and build a life together and adapt to each other that's super interesting so for the compliments was it that you grew
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up in a home where there was a strong sense of external validation if you did the right thing and then you felt like you constantly had to please someone and the compliments were assigned that you were doing the right thing but then they
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could be taken away if you didn't do the right thing I don't quite know a lot of people remember a ton about their childhood yeah I don't I remember certain moments and like not a lot before grade eight to be honest with you and I was like I got into a ton of
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trouble as a kid was a bit of a misfit but the thing that I I learned at a very young age was just not to pay attention to them see because that could also be a positive thing where you have an internal locus of control that's not looking to other people like even my
34:00
daughter is one and she's started doing this toy maybe you remember it where it's like you know there's a stick and then you put the different round things on top of it and when she does it every time she puts one on she claps and she
34:12
doesn't even smile she just thinks that that's part of how the toy works you put it on and then you clap for yourself because when she does it we clap for her I was like she's a brand new human in the world and she's already learning
34:24
that she's doing things for external validation or it's the Clapping to me is really bothering me where I'm like we're not going to clap anymore we we we cannot reward her for every single thing because then she will be doing it for us and not for herself and so it's so
34:38
interesting that compliments shut you down well they used to I've done much better since then it's sort of being vulnerable like I never wanted to be vulnerable I would get to this point and this goes back to the attachment Styles is I needed to feel like somebody else
34:53
couldn't hurt me or take something away because I'm giving them power over me in a way power to hurt me but was I don't know I'm messed up if you're listening to this like okay we I'm just going to push this topic because I think it's so
35:05
interesting but on my first date with my husband he told me that when people tease him or troll him or it actually makes him feel very close to them because something inside of him was like oh I'm a piece of [ __ ] so if somebody like if somebody sort of like
35:21
calls that out it makes him feel known and like I don't know it's like you see me yeah so I don't know that that happens all the time but like it is something that I've seen with certain people who are maybe more powerful or dominant is that when somebody actually
35:35
calls them out on stuff it makes them feel like oh I can trust that person because they see my flaws and they know from the beginning what my flaws are I don't have to put up a front of seeming perfect all the time and then disappointing them like this is a whole
35:50
Rabbit Hole of like I don't want to let somebody in because if they knew the real me then they would reject me yeah totally if you saw all of me then you would I'm not lovable is effectively what you that is such a big part of the
36:03
work that I do is this idea of people come to me and they think I'm undatable I yeah do you feel that way generally yeah you feel undatable well I feel unlovable like I I do feel like let's use those words synonymously if if somebody saw all of me right and could
36:19
see my inner monologue and just had like full access to me then they wouldn't love me of course I think that's extremely common and it has different ways that it comes up so some people say to me you know I have a chronic illness I'm unlovable I have an STI I'm
36:37
unlovable I've never been in a relationship I'm unlovable I've been in too many relationships I'm unlovable and so many people have this inner narrative around how if somebody really really knew them they wouldn't love them and what's so hard for people to understand
36:51
is like it's often that vulnerability and that imperfection that connects people because I think about friends of mine or people I know who come across as perfect and I'm like you have such a glossy exterior that there's nothing for
37:04
me to grab on to actually need cracks in the wall to grasp onto and to have a connection with you and to feel like I can be my full imperfect self and so it's like the thing that we think makes us unlovable is often what makes somebody feel comfortable around us but
37:21
if we truly feel like we're unlovable we never open up and give somebody the chance to see that for themselves I want to come back to sort of uh dating just a little bit and profiles like how you end up on a first date one thing
37:35
that I think everybody does these days is they Google the other person and for whatever reason I mean people think this doesn't happen I don't know why like you can upload photos from dating websites and find out who the person is fairly
37:49
easily how does that work for you and against you it's so interesting so there's research on the brain that shows when our brain gets an incomplete picture of something we fill in the gaps in a way that makes it more positive so have you ever seen a black and white photo of
38:09
yourself and think huh I look pretty good in that I've never seen a photo of myself or I think I look pretty good okay well take a photo of yourself and make it black and white and you might be like huh photos looking pretty good there and the point is that by taking
38:22
out the color and actually some of the information our brain fills in the Gap and it actually often looks more Ive than it does the same thing happens on dating app profiles so if somebody says I love music our brains fill in the Gap
38:34
and think oh they love music you know I really like hip-hop I bet they like the same music that I do and with this incomplete picture we start building up this fantasy in our head and that's why people get into this really bad situation where they
38:48
start talking to somebody and they're almost pen paling and having all these text conversations and building up this fantasy and by the time they meet in person that person's great but they're not the fantasy you had in your head and so you reject them because they're
39:01
different from who you thought they were and that's why it's so important that people get to the date faster honestly meet on hinge and a few days later we've actually found that the sweet spot is after 3 days of chatting just say hey I
39:13
always walk my dog at 6 p.m can I give you a phone call or do you want a FaceTime for a few minutes tonight and instead of turning the digital courtship phase into this weeks long thing make it much shorter get on the phone get on FaceTime see if you have a connection
39:29
and then meet up in person as quickly as possible and so I actually think the point is to learn who the person is by talking to them directly versus either having your brain fill in the gaps or doing all this external research that
39:42
might be incorrect or outdated so two rabbit holes I want to go down here well actually one comment it's interesting that you said we fill in our own gaps Matthew dicks who's like the Olympic storytelling champion of the world effectively uh was on the podcast and
39:58
one of the things that you said that just triggered this is when he was describing he's like I describe but vaguely so everybody sees their own thing if I say kitchen floor I don't describe like green lenium tiles because the minute I say that people might have
40:14
a hard time picturing it but everybody knows what their kitchen FL so he used this example of I'm in the back of my school my back is up against the wall and he's like it doesn't matter what my school looks like because everybody has this own image of their school and I
40:29
don't know why but I connected those two things just to comment on that like I definitely want to listen to that episode was it an episode you recorded with him because I'd love to learn from that because you know a big part of my
40:38
job is communicating and it's so true that stories are really the filing system of our brain totally and I was thinking last night about the story of the boy who cried wolf and I was like it's so smart that we teach kids fables because if somebody had sat me down and
40:56
said if you a lot of false alarms when it's a real alarm no one's going to listen like I wouldn't remember it but the boy who cried wolf it's so memorable it's like that's why we have these oral storytelling traditions and even like
41:07
you know why the Bible is the greatest meme of all time people really remember these stories and so that is a good tip that I'm going to use which is you know you want to be speaking about visuals but maybe vague enough details that people can insert their own version of
41:21
the kitchen floor you listen to the episode I did with Becky Kennedy too she talks how she made up stories to teach her kids lessons that's really cool which it is so powerful it's such a because we remember stories we don't remember facts digit and that's actually
41:37
part of dating advice that I give people so you know I have people who come in who are amazing communicators really Charming they just kind of have a few things holding them back from connecting and we work on that I have other people
41:49
who come in who have never been on a date in their life from that starting point we really have to start up talking about like how do you have a good conversation and so one of the key ideas there you basically just said these words is share stories not facts and so
42:03
what's an example of that well a fact would be that you have a younger brother a story would be your younger brother lives across the country from you you haven't met your niece yet you feel sad about the lack of connection with that
42:17
person and one of your resolutions is to really get closer to your brother and so I think often times when people are less experienced with first aid conversations they share the facts about their lives and it's not memorable and it's boring and really think about the emotions and
42:33
the feelings and the stories behind those facts because that's what a good conversation is walk me through a little bit more about good conversations on our first date I I think a lot of people tend to just have this list of questions almost that
42:49
they're like doesn't quite feel like an interview uh but it kind of feels like an interview on the same token how do you get out of that okay let's think of example so I think a bad question would be what did you study in college I think
43:04
then you're just finding out about a fact about somebody about their major I think a good question would be something like oh you just told me that your job was a marketing manager for this tech company like how is that different from what you thought it would be or can you
43:22
see yourself doing that for a long time or like what changes would you want to make to it and that one might be a little interviewyoutube [Music] me it triggered this idea of like a tech job and a phone screen like that 15minute call with the Google recruiter
44:03
to see if you're crazy or not and I felt like it was going to create too much of a feeling of okay I saw who you were I'm not interested in you I'm out but during the pandemic that was the only way that people could really date for a while and
44:16
so there was this proliferation of video chats or phone dates and I actually felt like they were a great technique for people to just see can we hold a conversation are they who they say they are it makes people feel more safe before meeting up for the first time it
44:32
helps people who are really busy like Executives or single parents feel like is this somebody who I want to get a babysitter for in order to meet up with them and so now I actually think that it's a really helpful technique for a
44:44
lot of people and what do you cover on that call like say it's 15 minutes like you're just trying to get a feel for the person like the awkwardness or like what do you yeah you know I think that you could start the conversation and just start talking about your day so for
45:02
example I like to tell people about this concept of inmedia res which is a Latin term that means in the middle of things so a play might open up in the middle of a battle scene and then it sort of zooms out and later you find out who's in the
45:18
battle why are they in the battle what's going on but it really just captures your attention right away and so you could enter a date or a phone call and say hey I'm Logan this is where I live this is what I do and like I'm already asleep just talking about this but
45:33
instead if you walk in there and you say so my sister called me this weekend and she's having this issue at work and she told me this but I thought that she was handling it the wrong way what do you think about that it's like boom we're
45:46
friends we're having an experience I'm hearing how you think I'm hearing if you give good advice I'm learning about you I'm not trying to glean information from you and facts about your life I'm truly trying to get to know you as a person
46:00
and how you think and I feel like for me as someone who's been with my partner for 10 years who has a new baby so much of my life is how my partner thinks that influences my life that influences the decisions we make together it influences whether or not I trust him so I really
46:17
think just creating these conversational Dynamics where we're expressing ourselves we're responding to situations we're not just repeating the same tape in our head that we press play on in every boring first date that to me is so much more fun and provides so such
46:34
deeper information no I love that I I want to like also come back we're sort of in a rabbit hole here a little bit to attachment you know I feel like I've taken steps individually towards more secure and away from avoidant attachment what
46:50
are the things that we can do short of finding a partner who's safe and secure yeah uh that reinforce is the best in us and gives us patience and tolerance for the worst in us uh what are the things that people can do individually to put themselves in a better place and you
47:05
know you don't have to make that leap overnight but what are the steps that we can take to get to a better place right so people do tend to have one attachment style and it's a mixture of genetics and how they were raised but around 25% of
47:18
people are able to shift their attachment over time so if you are insecurely attached there is hope it's not just oh I need to find one of those securely attach people that's already in a relationship so for people who are anxiously attached it's really important to
47:33
understand triggers for you so a trigger for somebody who's anxiously attached might be I text the person I'm seeing all day but I just sent them a meme they usually respond to that right away they haven't responded in four hours okay so
47:46
a trigger was not hearing back from somebody what usually happens in that moment is you sort of go down into the danger zone and you start you know texting them a bunch of times hey what happened or you spiral in your head they don't like me anymore they met
48:03
somebody else when I said this thing two days ago they thought it was super weird and they're pulling back and then they sort of do these behaviors to try to reconnect with the person which can really turn the other person off and so
48:18
instead set yourself up for success by not getting to the danger zone in the first place so when you feel like oh no they didn't respond to my text what are other things you could do so you could text a friend and distract yourself with
48:31
the conversation with them you could even tell a friend oh this is what I'm feeling and you know make me feel better about it give me a pep talk you can give yourself a pep talk there's this concept called disconfirming evidence so basically explaining to yourself no they
48:46
just have a busy day they're at that conference they told me that they weren't going to be in touch why am I jumping to a conclusions let me just wait and see what happens and so there's different things that you can do to sort of catch yourself before you start doing
48:59
those protest Behavior things like sending them a million text or calling them and then turning your phone off for avoid and attach people it's the same thing the danger zone is when you feel really overcome by them and that you're
49:12
losing your Independence and you might notice strategies that happen for you so with anxiously attached people it's activating strategies and with avoiding attached people it's deactivating strategy so in your head you start thinking H they're not really that cute
49:25
I'm not interested in them or I can't believe she pronounced that word that way she must not be that smart so it's almost like you're giving yourself a reason why you don't like them to push away I wonder if you ever do that oh totally yeah and so instead what to do
49:37
in those moments is to really realize that you need space and just ask for it so for example if you have that Saturday night sleepover and Sunday you want your space you can just say I had so much fun last night I actually have a big project
49:50
at work tomorrow that I was going to spend the majority of today on let's make plans for seeing each other later this week so you are creating that space for yourself you're not assuming that they are a mind reader and they know that you don't want to spend the day
50:03
together but you're basically stopping the problem before it starts I want to come back you said texting what are the rules around texting and dating what do you think the rules are I don't know what are they do you think you're a good
50:15
texter no I don't think so what do you think you could work on in your texting with anybody or in dating if you're actively dating um just Comm communicating better I think I'm of an era where I don't pick up the phone okay and so like I I think I've answered like
50:34
five phone calls in the past like two years they're all from my mom we've had a phone call I know was that shocking you know unless it's scheduled like if it's unscheduled I just don't really answer the phone and I try to communicate over text but
50:50
sometimes you're Nuance doesn't come across I'm a visual person so like when I make a joke I usually like do something funny with my face but over text that can come off as like very dry or cold or cuz there's no emotion attached to it no Emoji sometimes it's
51:06
just like a dry almost sense of humor or uh very pointed are you a voice note guy sometimes I do feel like that helps with sense of humor yeah totally so it gets better but like what are the rules around like and by rules I mean like okay if you've sent two texts and you
51:21
haven't got a reply like are you you got to wait is it like there's three is it five is it six is it one for one at the start like what is the etiquette around this so one of my favorite projects I've done over the last five years was a big
51:35
jenz research project at hinge where I followed this group of international genz daters for around six months and one of the things that came out of it was this idea of digital body language the fact that we talk a lot about body language right I'm sure this is
51:51
something that you've thought about in your own life so if I'm sitting forward I am really interested in what you're saying if I'm leaning back I might feel defensive am I averting my eyes and that your brain is subconsciously interpreting that as whether I'm a
52:04
threat or whether I'm interested in you and so there's a ton of digital body language these unspoken cues as to my intentions and so the hard part about digital body language is we don't all interpret it the same way so through this research
52:20
there was a woman I remember who said if somebody says K instead of okay then then she thinks they're mad at them and she's like specifically I want them to say a y y y y which is like who would know that that's what she wants but a k seems rude to her oh it's just like sure
52:38
you say sure to somebody oh my God if my sister says got it I'm like having a mini panic attack cuz I'm like you don't got it you're mad at me you're just giving up on this conversation so I think we all have versions of that but
52:51
we did do research at hinge looking at to what are the most commonly agreed upon parts of digital body language so one of them is that actually the double text is okay so if I text you and you know we're early dating and I say hey I'd love to hear about that show you
53:06
were talking about how was it and then you don't respond I might feel like oh he's not interested I can never send another text but sending one more text that either like follows up on it or says like hey do you want to go out this week people don't mind that people are
53:19
busy and they understand that sometimes messages get mixed another one is one-word answers are seeing as very rude or Curt or the person's not interested so if our text messages look like a lot of blue and a little bit of gray there's
53:35
probably a problem there and so making sure that our messages seem pretty equal this is kind of going back to the idea of I take a step forward you take a step forward building the momentum together the other thing that comes up around text messages and it might
53:51
surprise people how often people talk to me about texting but a common thing that somebody might say is I hate texting I have a job where I keep my phone in my pocket I love deep work how can I tell somebody that I am interested in them I
54:05
just don't like texting or the opposite which is I really love spending time with this guy in person but he's terrible over text and so the way that I've thought about it is I think that you need to understand as a person the maximum amount of text that you're
54:21
willing to give and the minimum that you're willing to take and if the minimum you need is not within somebody's maximum you may not be a fit and it sounds so crazy because it's like you're really not going to date someone because of your texting Styles but look
54:36
that's how a lot of people talk for a lot of the day and like as parents as busy people it's like I'm texting with my husband more than I'm really talking to him every single day and so you need to have some overlap in your minimum and
54:51
their maximum and so you know kind of a long-winded way of saying I do think that texting styles are really important since that's such a big part of digital courtship and it's really good to express to somebody what your texting style is and to maybe give them a heads
55:06
up like in the past I found that sometimes people like can't read my tone over text just to let you know like I'm not the biggest texter but I will do my best to call you or just to make plans and don't read too much into my texting
55:19
okay let's come back to mind reading because you said that and I've always had the opinion I would say until told maybe the last year that if somebody knew me and liked me and wanted to be in my life that they would be able to read my mind and know exactly what I was
55:36
thinking yeah talk to me about how that gets in the way in relationships and how we can be more comfortable just telling our partner or perspective partner what we want it's so funny because one of my closest friends in the world is a professional Mentalist or a mind reader
55:51
and we lived together as roommates for a number of years and it's just I love the concept of mind reading people would say oh you live with David like what's it like is he always reading your mind and I would say if he was always reading my
56:05
mind he would unload the dishwasher a lot more often and so I just think it's so funny how there's this sense of well we're close and you know me so you must know what I want and that's something that I've personally worked on a lot in my life
56:20
so I've found that with a lot of my female friends they get frustrated that their husbands are Partners didn't give them what they wanted for their birthday of why didn't they know I wanted a surprise party and what I'd say to them is it's much more important to get what
56:33
you want than to have the person guess what you want and then not get it right and be disappointed so I feel like I try to be really explicit with my husband and say like hey like for Mother's Day like this is what would be a really
56:47
great day for me and like it's not like he always delivers on that but I'm kind of sharing what matters to me or I have friends one guy is an economist and they have a pretty complicated system but it's basically like when one of the people in the couple invites the other
57:02
person to an event at their work they'll basically say how much it matters to them on a scale of you know zero to 100 to basically say this invite I care about it 90 out of 100 please come or I care about it 10 out of 100 if you don't come it doesn't matter and so I just
57:18
think that if people get over this kind of romanticized idea of if you really knew me you'd know what I want into what I think is much more romantic which is I feel safe enough to tell you what I want and I hope that you'll be able to honor
57:31
it to the best of your ability I have a theory that the people who expect unconsciously other people to be able to read their mind they do that because they're very good at reading other people's mind but not actually reading
57:43
their mind they're just yeah they tend to be maybe more thoughtful or they pay attention to a lot more Nuance or details do you think that's true I haven't thought about that before but it resonates with me something that I'm working on with my business coach is I
57:59
make a lot of assumptions about what people want and then I get really nervous about saying something that I think will disappoint them and then I just avoid the conversation but the feedback that I'm getting from my coach and from these people that I'm dealing
58:12
with is you're actually getting wrong what I want and so by not having the conversation with me you're making decisions on my behalf and if you actually just told me what was going on we could come to a happy medium about it but because you think you know what I
58:27
want and then you want to avoid discomfort for me you're not even bringing it up and so I think for me the work that I'm doing there is to have uncomfortable conversations sooner instead of saying well I'm so good at knowing what everyone wants I must be
58:40
right and instead being more Curious and asking them what's going on it's kind of like a kind versus nice thing right like a kind person will tell you you have spinach on your teeth but a nice person won't oh I haven't heard of that but I
58:53
do like that and I absolutely resonate with that where I always want to be the person who's telling somebody that there's food in their teeth and rather than finding that It embarrasses people I find that especially like a first meeting that it
59:05
really makes them feel closer to me because it's like they feel comfortable enough to tell me the slightly embarrassing thing therefore I am safe with them yeah I like that a lot I want to come to priorities in terms of life and dating especially post I don't know
59:20
30 a lot of people are divorced maybe they have kids not in San Francisco I mean fewer and fewer people have kids I we ask I just feel like it's like you know in San Francisco 30 and single and dating is kind of the norm okay without
59:35
so but I mean you're at a point in your life where you have a lot of competing Partners like you could make an argument at the risk of offending people that having kids younger is better because you learn to be less selfish uh and that's better for society and all the
59:50
sudden in the world's not about you but if you go through your 20s you can also make an argument that you tend to be more focused focused on your career and you have priorities and dating has to fit into those priorities but it's not the number one thing anymore how do you
1:00:05
think about priorities in dating so many of the people that I work with are very career oriented these maximizers who are trying to strategize their way through life and oftentimes they come to me when they have been prioritizing their career
1:00:18
for the last 12 years and then are like oh wait I'm not where I want to be relationship wise and that's why when I do get the opportunity to speak to younger people I really encourage them start prioritizing dating when you're younger you have a more flexible
1:00:33
lifestyle you have a bigger population of single people to choose from and you know in the last few years as there's been more and more layoffs I feel like a lot of people have had the reality check of this company that I dedicated 10 years of my life to and that I missed a
1:00:50
lot of dates because I had to travel for my job guess what we were not in a long-term relationship we were in a 10e long relationship and now I'm single and I don't want to be and so sometimes when I talk to people it's not just what you
1:01:04
want to add to your plate a day to week it's what are you willing to take away from your plate in order to make time for that and so work is such a compelling system right if I work harder I get promoted if I get promoted I make more money if I make more money I get to
1:01:22
have a nicer apartment and my mom gets to brag about me I get to update my in it's like it's the perfect gamified system to find selfworth through achievement and dating is a lot harder there's a lot of constant Rejection it costs time it costs money it might take
1:01:38
away from that gamified career and so I love to help people understand that the sooner you learn how to date the sooner you can stop dating and why not do that when you're younger and there's a larger pool of people to date is there an age difference that it
1:01:56
becomes too much uh you probably see everything at hinge from like the 60 year olds going for the 20 year olds to everything in between what's an appropriate age Gap that people should be looking for most of my research has been with jenz and Millennial daters who
1:02:14
are sort of dating for their first marriage or dating to have kids depending on the situation but then when I that covers up to maybe 50 right like I mean they're younger but partner the person that they're looking for might be
1:02:28
older potentially but what I was going to say is you know I did this Netflix show the later daters and that was where I worked with people 55 plus and so that was sort of my first exposure to that age group and it was really interesting
1:02:40
to see the different age differences and if people were dating somebody at the same life stage as them and so I think what came up a lot on the show and in the kind of coaching conversations that maybe didn't make it on to the show was that sometimes if you look younger you
1:02:56
might go on a date with somebody younger and that feels really good from an ego perspective but then you're just in a different life stage and so I think what really matters is do you have the same values do you like spending time the
1:03:08
same way you know if you're retired and you can travel and the other person is hustling and building their business then maybe you just aren't a good match because you're not going to be spending the majority of your time together and so I think instead of like you know one
1:03:21
of those funny calculations like I don't even remember it but it's something like half of your age minus seven like I don't believe in any rules like that I think people mature at different rates people have different life experiences but instead really tuning into am I
1:03:35
dating this person because they're younger and hotter and an ego boost or do I actually feel like this is somebody I want to partner with in life okay so we go on a first date we're not interested what do we say we say in a text probably and not
1:03:52
ghosting hey it was really great to meet you it was so fun to hear about your podcast and the cool people that you're interviewing this year I don't think we're romantic match but it was great meeting you I don't owe you feedback I don't need to get into a long
1:04:11
conversation about what you did right or wrong I'm acknowledging you that you're a person we had an experience together and I don't want to move forward and that's it you just leave it there yeah I think the most important thing kind of
1:04:22
going back to your word of kindness is to be kind but firm so if you write back and say I I really don't think I was my best self you know I was kind of jetlagged I want to see you again you know maybe that's not what feels right for me and so I can respond or not
1:04:37
respond but I feel like I did my duty by saying to you I met you we had an experience I'm not interested and what's so hard about ghosting and it truly has become more and more common over as Say the Last 5 Years that I've been tracking
1:04:51
it is that it leads people in this ambiguity totally oh maybe he likes me but he just is busy and he hasn't gotten back to me so I'm not going to get back to this person in case this person wants to see me and so in the research that I
1:05:04
did on this at hinge what we found is that 86% of people say when it comes to rejection I'd rather you tell me it hurts but I want to know so you have this problem where people want the facts they want the truth so that they can move on but then the other people don't
1:05:22
share the truth because they say oh I don't want to hurt their feelings but you're actually hurting them more by not being upfront from the beginning about how you feel do you block the person after you send this text I don't think that's necessary do
1:05:35
you block the person well I don't know we're going to come back to this maybe later actually let's dive into this now a lot of people text their exes yeah is that healthy in general the research shows that moving on from your ex is the best way to find a new relationship because
1:05:54
when we keep all of these doors open it actually prevents us from finding a new door to open and so if you have these five people from your past that you sleep with when you're in a certain city or you wonder oh maybe I should get back
1:06:06
together with her I'll keep her on the back burner what we call like orbiting it can actually prevent you from focusing and finding somebody new and I even find this is especially true with sex so if you are somebody who craves a lot of sex but you occasionally sleep
1:06:21
with your exes you almost don't have the motivation to find somebody new to be in a partnership with because you're getting some of those needs met by other people and what if you actually were dating in a different way where you're
1:06:33
like I'm going to focus all of my time energy really even life force on a new person because that's aligned with my goals versus just getting some of those needs met in the short term well let's double click on that again so if your needs are getting met outside of a
1:06:48
relationship then there's no incentive to be in a relationship is that what I you know living in the Bay Area there is such a big community of people who are polyamorous or in open relationships and I'm personally not in one of those but I see a lot of value in it I think that
1:07:04
with the divorce rate being at 40 to 50% over the last 40 years we've really seen that this one- siiz fits-all version of marriage doesn't work for most people so if you have a product and 50% of people are returning it then maybe you need to
1:07:19
rework that product so anyone who's rethinking the structure of marriage I am a fan of so relationship fluidity all those things I think are great and so in a polyamorous relationship you might have somebody where you have more of a sexual relationship with them somebody
1:07:35
where more of an intellectual connection with them there's so many different ways of doing it and so I wouldn't say that you need to get all of your needs met by one person and you should not get those needs met by other people because I
1:07:46
believe in these open relationship structures but what I'm saying here is when you're single and you have limited time and you really want to find someone ask yourself is this ongoing relationship with my ex something that's pushing me forward or pulling me
1:07:59
backwards and if the answer is that it's pulling you backwards then I would cut ties for the time being and really focus on the next person that you could have a relationship with interesting I have a friend who's a a GP and she's mentioned in the past that
1:08:15
one of the biggest reasons that people come into her office for anti- depressant is because they're in a open relationship really and they don't want their partner to know uh that it's causing them all this anxiety or all this and I don't know if
1:08:31
that's true or not I mean I'm personally not a fan of them okay uh but I you feel like your body language changed a little when I brought it up oh interesting on the body language but I'm all for people doing whatever they want to do you know
1:08:43
as long as everybody's a consenting adult like I'm I'm in favor of it you're not breaking your laws you're not hurting people and everybody's aware of the situation that's fine I do Wonder like what emotional toll it takes on people over time I'm very far from an
1:08:57
expert on polyamory but I'm just thinking about one of my friends who's very proudly polyamorous and kind of I can hear her in my head sort of being like that person may not be a good fit for an open relationship and why are they in one because in an ideal world
1:09:12
there's this concept of compersion have you heard of that it's a word that means I get pleasure when you get pleasure so like kind of the first polyamorous couple that I got to know about 10 years ago I remember the guy describing to me
1:09:26
oh tonight my wife has a date with her boyfriend and I'm really excited for her and like my anxious brain my gous brain was like I cannot relate to that on any level that is a nightmare that's instantly where my brain was right and I think I'm just way too jealous and
1:09:42
anxious and insecure of a person to really be a good fit for an open relationship because I think that the part of my brain that would be thinking about am I going to be rejected am I going to be abandoned would just be so so loud in my head that it would
1:09:57
overcome any pleasure that I might get from having my own relationships outside the marriage for other people they are truly not there that's not where the brands are I know people very intimately who feel like I'm so happy when my
1:10:12
partner gets this other need met or maybe it's like I'm really busy at work right now and I'm not feeling that sexual I'm so happy that my partner has this outlet and so that story about the GP I would say that doesn't resonate with the experience expences that I've
1:10:26
heard and it kind of goes back to why is that person in an open relationship in the first place is it because they think that that's the only way their partner should stay and probably instead of talking to the GP about it or maybe in
1:10:37
addition they should talk to their partners and say either this isn't working for me or we need to change the stipulations of this because it's currently causing me more pain than it is pleasure just thinking out loud I wonder if it would feed the side of me
1:10:53
that doesn't feel enough or does doesn't feel lovable and so it would just cause like this endless torment in my head that's what I think it would feel like for me but I find polyamory really endlessly fascinating because it's basically alerting me to a different
1:11:10
brain chemistry and it's sort of like in our society we've accepted extroverts and introverts so like I know that I could be in a terrible mood and then go to a party and then have the time of my life and it's like why was that party bringing me so much energy well I'm
1:11:23
extremely extroverted for my husband it's the opposite so why can't we all think there are people for whom compersion is possible and amazing for them it's okay that I'm not like that instead of this assumption that for everyone they would have the same
1:11:39
experience around it and the other term that you mentioned that I've never heard of before is orbiting what what does that mean okay so orbiting is a term that a reporter from mashal Anna I ofine came up with and it's about this idea of
1:11:54
keeping a bunch of people or several people in orbit around you sort of to increase your opportunities so you're sort of not committing to any of them but they're all there sort of on your bench as people that you could interact with and instead of keeping all of these
1:12:08
balls in the air sorry I'm like totally mixing metaphors here it's much better to commit to somebody see how the relationship goes than decide if you want to stay in the relationship or not and then move on versus feeling like
1:12:21
well the more possibilities I have the more freedom I have the more chances of success I have actually success comes from committing to something seeing if it works and then moving on if it doesn't there's so many parallels between that and business right where
1:12:37
you know a lot of people just tend to dabble in all of these different projects and they don't actually get things done versus people who commit to a project focus on it and make it a priority there's a great concept from Dan Gilbert of Harvard called
1:12:52
changeability so we often crave the ability to change our minds because it makes us feel more free so in this experiment that he ran on the Harvard campus he had a bunch of students take a photography workshop and one of the weekends that students took the workshop
1:13:09
they would get a call at the end of the weekend and say hey we're actually G to have an art show in London in a few weeks pick one of your pictures from this weekend of taking pictures and that's going to be sent to London and
1:13:21
they didn't have the opportunity to change their mind in a different scenario they would call the students and say pick one of the pieces to be sent to this art show in London and I'm going to call you in a few days and see if you want to change your mind most of
1:13:33
the time people didn't change their mind about the photos but when you asked people in which situation they were more satisfied the people who didn't have the chance to change their mind were actually more satisfied because they made a commitment and they immediately
1:13:48
rationalized it and they felt good about it when you can change your mind you start wondering well that picture's a little sharper but this one's original a little more original and maybe people in London will like this one more and so
1:13:59
you sort of start making this proon list in your head that actually works against you because you start doubting your original answer but this comes back to almost what we were talking about earlier in dating multiple people and having all these options available and
1:14:12
you're sort of like oh I'm making these choices all over again every day absolutely and that's something that Hing is thinking about so my favorite feature that's come out in a long time is this thing that came out last year called your turn limits and basically
1:14:26
the idea is that people were thinking I want to get as many matches as possible I really want to get this ego boost from attention and see how many people will like me and instead it's about connection over attention so now if you
1:14:38
have eight conversations where you owe somebody a response you cannot match with anyone else until you respond to one of those people so either you close out the conversation and show that you're not interested or you keep the conversation going with them and I was
1:14:52
with my cousin over Christmas and he was like ah Logan like this feature is so challenging like I'm just trying to meet some new people and I'm like dude look at your matches who are these women do you like them then ask them out on a date and I think that in general the
1:15:05
brain just has such a natural tendency to want options and choices when in reality limiting those options or going through things one at a time makes it much easier to make a choice and so I think in the age of dating apps having this your turn limits feature is
1:15:20
actually a really smart way to kind of nudge people towards making decisions in instead of endlessly trying to match and then once you've had a date with somebody what does the science say about whether you should should I be dating
1:15:34
three people at once for a first date or should I date one person and then be like oh I kind of like this person I'm going to like pause the app or like hide my profile or whatever it is I found that it does differ by person so there are people out there that are really
1:15:47
anxiously attached and when they meet someone their brain goes into I need to lock it down I don't want to date anymore so I just want to date them so how can I become exclusive with them and for those people sometimes having multiple people that they're seeing in
1:15:59
the beginning is actually a way to sort of ease some of that and just makes it a little bit easier for them to be a bit more relaxed and have a bit more of an abundance mindset there are other people for whom seeing multiple people at the
1:16:12
same time in the beginning either feels immoral or uncomfortable or just too exhausting and so I would say for the person really explore what are the patterns that have held you back in the past what feels hard for you what makes makes you feel like you're dating
1:16:26
successfully and then do what's right for you while of course keeping in mind things like making it clear to someone if you're not exclusive or if you're not sexually exclusive how do you have that conversation on maybe your first date or
1:16:38
your second date uh do you just ask out right like hey are you dating other people like how do you bring that up I would say that in modern dating it's sort of assumed that you're not exclusive until you have the conversation exus and that pain can come
1:16:53
from somebody making an well oh we've been dating for 6 months we must be exclusive oh we've had sex we must be exclusive and there is a lot of heartbreak that happens when people don't have that explicit conversation so in life in relationships in dating I am
1:17:09
such a big fan of just checking in with the person because there's really this natural tendency kind of going back to mind reading of well if I really like you then we must think the same way and be on the same page and when you bring
1:17:22
it up you're afraid well what if I find out information that makes me sad then I'll be sad it's like no that information is power and you need the data to make an informed decision for yourself and if you find out information that's disappointing yes it hurts but
1:17:35
now you can decide if that's the right person for you or not what are women not getting from men and men not getting from women that's a question that I'm going to be researching more this year so stay tuned but it's really on my mind what's your
1:17:49
intuition I don't know if it's gender specific things where there's a lack of connection or just maybe cultural things going on where you know there's big differences in religious institution attendance or political Divergence but when I think about the issues in dating
1:18:09
I tend to focus Less on what ises this gender or that gender think and I tend to focus more on patterns of behavior or blind spots that people have and so of course there's going to be different advice that I give to a woman in her late 30s who wants to have biological
1:18:24
children versus a guy in his 20s like those conversations sound different and they have different timelines I think so much of the work that I do is really about helping people understand who they are understanding these patterns holding
1:18:36
them back and those are sort of universal things but I am interested in what's happening in dating right now and I am sort of at the beginning of a research project that will dig more into sort of what are certain groups not understanding about other groups what
1:18:51
makes somebody good at dating and maybe bad at being a partner and then the opposite what makes somebody bad at dating but like good at being a partner what do you think you are I think I'm terrible at dating but good at being a
1:19:06
partner what do you think makes you bad at dating I get bored I the opportunity cost of being on a first date is incredibly High okay so so going back to priorities like you think about my priorities it's sort of like the kids okay okay uh and then work and
1:19:27
those two things matter a lot to me and between those two things it doesn't leave a lot of time for anything else and the difference between running a business and working for somebody else often is I could be working and earning money like you at 6 PM right so if I'm
1:19:41
on a date or something with somebody then there's all these things and you start thinking about that and then you just get caught up in your day sometimes and you're extremely focused which is part of what makes people successful is
1:19:55
focus and then I think and I don't know if I'm right or wrong correct me on this if you come home to a person I value connection I value that time but it's really hard to make that time in your day versus it exists naturally because you're coming home
1:20:11
you're going to bed or you're cleaning the kitchen together or you're making dinner together or you're doing these things together which becomes a natural part of your day versus I'm not going to text you and I'm like with the kids and I'm making dinner and I'm not going to
1:20:24
and so by that time it's 9:00 p.m. and I don't know about everybody else but 9:00 p.m. I'm pretty much ready for bed you know maybe 10: I can I can go up till but how does that work and maybe this is the wrong way to think about it I don't
1:20:36
know it's very interesting that you said you're good at being in a relationship but sort of not as good as getting into one yeah and it sounds like once somebody has jumped through the Hoops necessary to kind of make it into the top priorities in your life you will
1:20:51
give them the time and attention but you find that hard to do in the early stages where maybe they haven't earned that spot yet totally so I mean that's a bit more extreme than I would it but I think you're you're generally on the right
1:21:04
track and so what are your long-term goals in dating and relationships I want to be in a relationship yeah you know I want to be happy uh and I want a life post my kid like right now one of the things that's top of mind for me or has been for a while is sort of the kids
1:21:23
they're 14 and 15 the path to them going to University is very clear and then what I have a great amazing group of friends uh I'm very close with my family I have a very full life but then what they move out and now I'm alone the reason why I asked you what
1:21:41
your long-term goals are are that if you're really clear on your goal I think it helps you prioritize your life differently so it's like for the next 5 years as you have kids at home it's very clear what your evenings look like Tot but what happens when you don't have any
1:22:00
kids at home do you then suddenly start dating and then do you feel behind do you feel like I'm a little rusty on my dating skills I don't know what kind of person I like I actually wanted to have more kids but now I feel like I've aged
1:22:11
out of that and so by getting super clear on your long-term goals for you for anyone else I feel like it helps you make those adjustments in your life and so if you told me I want to run a marathon but I don't have time to train
1:22:27
then I would say I don't really think you want to run a marathon totally or you're not going to run a marathon this year but if you said I really want to run a marathon and I'm willing to lose an hour of sleep every night or be slightly worse at my job or even have a
1:22:43
few fewer hours a week with my kids and I would say it sounds like this is something that you're willing to do and so instead of thinking this is something that'll happen in the future I think it does look like making sacrifice is too
1:22:55
strong a word but making adjustments now to how you spend your time so that you are getting close enough to somebody to even decide if you want to be in a relationship with them dating is a bit of a show though like you put on your best face right you might have had a bad
1:23:10
day at work you sit down and all of a sudden you just want to be in your sweatpants at home like watching trashy TV but you're you're doing something that you don't want to do and so like not not want to do but you're putting on a bit of a mask right you're hiding part
1:23:24
of your through dating and I feel like it might be better if people just saw all the different sides of you rather than this pretend little dance so what would that look like I don't know like you're you're the expert no but what why
1:23:38
I'm pushing you on that point is like your job right now is flying to different locations to have deep one-on-one conversations with somebody yeah isn't that a little bit of a show isn't it a little bit like a first date it's like I'm meeting a stranger I want
1:23:54
to have a connection with them I want to have an experience there's cameras here but I don't think we're thinking about the cameras I think we're thinking about the fact that we are getting to know each other exchanging information so and
1:24:06
that's why I prefer to do them in right me too so my assumption is that like you must enjoy this if you've built a life around it how can you reframe dating to be something where it's like I get to meet somebody have an experience with them go deep have thoughts I've never
1:24:20
had before because we're playing a conversational game of P pong and I'm having a good time whereas right now it sounds like the frame is dating is draining dating is time away from my kids dating is I can't be in my sweatpants as opposed to reframing it to
1:24:36
this is aligned with my goals and I can actually make it fun maybe the way to think about this is I feel broken in a lot of ways right and this is part of the reason I went to therapy last summer and spent a lot of time I did immersive
1:24:49
therapy which is kind of crazy I spent 10 hours a day with this woman who like flew to Ottawa cool and we walked we walked like 20 miles that this is like my dream for 5 days oh my God that's healthy that's by the end of the day she's like totally energized and I'm
1:25:05
like oh my God I'm ready for sleep okay this is a new modality that I need to pursue was amazing it was the best thing ever I didn't want to do this like every two weeks thing and I definitely didn't want to do therapy over Zoom so I hired this worldclass therapist Ottawa and
1:25:20
spent like four or five days with her incredible totally immersed and I figured you know from my point of view the worst thing is like she knocks on the door we don't get along I've already paid for the week you know it's sort of like just go home and I'll do
1:25:34
work or whatever uh but we really hit it off and and part of what came out of this is I don't know maybe I'm alone in this but I feel like when I get broken up with where a relationship doesn't work out I feel like I'm constantly
1:25:48
telling my friends oh it didn't work out and then there's a part of me on the inside that just feels like broken what's your reaction to that that you are so not alone rejection sucks having somebody spend time with you evaluate you and tell you that you're
1:26:06
not what they want is so painful and I think that if you apply for a job and you don't get it it's oh I wasn't right for the position and they had an internal candidate it's just one slice of your life there's something uniquely painful about rejection and dating
1:26:20
because it's like I've met you and I don't want you and so I'm just validating that I think many many many people find this whole process very painful especially people who have been dating 10 15 years and are just like my body my soul I can't go through this
1:26:35
anymore so I just have a lot of empathy for that but what is so interesting about the conversation that we're having is you sort of started with it's hard for me to make time for dating when I think what's actually going on is it's very painful for me to feel rejected so
1:26:52
I don't want to subject myself to that and so the time is an excuse for a much deeper thing that you're experiencing there's definitely an element of that I feel broken even when I break up with somebody do you know what I mean like I
1:27:05
I feel like maybe I pushed them away or did something to like cause the fracture and then you know eventually manned up and uh called off the relationship or something but then I walk away from that feeling like I'm like why did I do that
1:27:20
why so what's the story in your head I mean it comes back to vulnerability at a point right like I think you get to a point in any relationship where you have to make a decision and for me it's more binary maybe than other people and that decision is do I trust this person to
1:27:39
not hurt me and for whatever reason post divorce that's been really hard for me to get to that point and then trust somebody when I have got to that point and I do overcome it it hasn't worked out and so it's like oh gosh so you did
1:27:55
these 5 days of immersive therapy oh yeah what are you currently doing to kind of heal that inner wound which is I am broken because if your analysis is that until you feel less broken both when you break up with someone and when they break up with you I think you're
1:28:13
you're not going to be able to connect with someone walk me through how you made your decision about your husband because that was not a love at first sight that was a Slow Burn how do you decide between falling into a relationship with inertia and choosing
1:28:29
to be in a relationship thank you for indulging me and letting me talk about my husband who I love so much and I it's so cliche but like I just I feel like I love him way more now than I did you know in our first year our second year like our lives are just so much more and
1:28:45
mesed and so my husband and I met in college and we only know this because we became Facebook friends at the time so have this vague memory of like sitting next to him in the dining hall and we had a mutual friend and he wrote on my
1:28:59
Facebook wall which back in the day you know maybe he was flirting or maybe he wasn't and then we met again at Google and I saw him on a dating app and I looked at his photos I can just remember exactly where I was exactly what the photos look like and I swiped left I
1:29:17
said no because from his pictures he just looked like this unsmiling bro they were sort of all from this like one hiking trip and maybe one wedding he went to wasn't smiling at any of them and I was just like oh this guy's like wearing tank tops and a backwards hat
1:29:32
like not for me and I like that part of the story because I think it shows like how quickly we make judgments and how incorrect A lot of those judgments are so then some period of time later I held this lunch at Google which was people who had gone to our College
1:29:50
who worked at Google and you know in retrospect I think I was expanding my network I was doing it for the interns from our school but it was also a way of just like meeting more people and maybe meeting more potential partners and so I
1:30:02
sat next to my then husband at this lunch and I was talking about how I was trying to learn this statistical programming language of R and how it was very hard and he said oh I just dropped out of a math PhD program where I wrote R every day I will tutor you in it and
1:30:21
now that I know this person extremely well I feel like that was out of character for him he was totally like hitting on you like I think he must have been but that's not like what either of our versions of it are he didn't like
1:30:33
it's not how it felt it's not how it felt but it's so interesting it's like even using my language of what side of you does the person bring out I feel like in that moment I brought out a generous side of him that he maybe doesn't always access my husband is not
1:30:48
the person going through the world asking people if he can do them favors and I don't know if it even was romantic for him or a feeling of like I want to be around this person more or like I'm lonely I just dropped out of a PhD program I want to make new friends and
1:31:02
so over the next year we did have these R tutoring sessions and I remember them so well and I remember and of these like celebratory moments where I'd figure things out and he was a good tutor and it really put him in a good light right
1:31:15
like he's just so smart it was a chance for him to shine at the same time there was this guy that I had met at Burning Man who I was obsessed with and definitely pursuing and every textbook example of anxious attachment was coming true for me so it
1:31:32
was like he would pull away so I would chase him more he rejected me so I thought how can I prove to him that I'm worthy of his love this guy who I was obsessed with I had a mutual friend with him we were sort of in the same extended group of friends
1:31:47
and somebody who knew the guy that I was chasing you know was just witnessing how in pain I was and was like Hey like this isn't working out I think you should see a dating coach or this isn't working and so I started seeing this dating coach and it was so helpful
1:32:01
because a lot of what we did was kind of pull back the curtain and so I started to understand when she asked me the person who you're going to end up with how do you want them to make you feel and so a lot of that stuff was I want to
1:32:14
feel desired I want to feel smart I want to feel cared for and how does this guy from berning man make you feel well he makes me feel anxious makes me feel not good enough he makes me feel not attractive enough and it's like in continuing to pursue him I was
1:32:31
continuing to pursue those feelings that felt really bad she said well do you know any guys have you ever dated anyone who makes you feel this way that you want to feel and this guy from work popped up in my head I was like wow those tutoring sessions are really fun
1:32:47
and we've gotten closer and now we have lunch at work and sometimes I call him after my dates with other people but but why am I not dating him and so pretty quickly you know being a goal oriented person I was kind of like hey I don't have plans this Friday night like you
1:33:04
know dot dot dot you should ask me out and we quickly went on a first date and you know a number of dates and now we've been together for almost 10 years and I just feel like on paper there was some reasons why we wouldn't have worked so for example
1:33:22
like at the time I was very into Bernie man and he not only didn't go but he would say I don't really trust anyone who goes to Bernie man well guess what we went to Bernie man together multiple times it's like I felt like the deepest
1:33:34
parts of us that were connected so sort of same sense of humor which is a huge part of relationship Mutual intellectual respect really trusting each other deeply like those things were there from the beginning and have continued to grow and we still have parts of our lives
1:33:51
where we're not the same he's vegan and I'm not I like traveling a lot more than he does but we've built a life where the VIN diagram of the middle is super strong and we each also have the parts of our lives that are separate and we're
1:34:05
not trying to be 100% merged what was the transition from Friendship to dating was it seamless or was it awkward you know I think in my head it's so mythologized that like I don't know if I can give you a truly honest answer but I think it was kind of pouring gasoline
1:34:22
onto like the chemistry that we already had there was tension already yeah so it was like it was really exciting I mean it felt so exciting like especially you know we worked both worked at Google it's this big company with thousands of
1:34:34
people so I would go to his Cafe instead of my Cafe and like hope that I would see him or like you know I would what did we call it back in the day like Gchat him like on the shuttle like there was just so much excitement in the beginning around like wow like I have a
1:34:49
lot of chemistry with this person and we're going to take that friend chemistry and see if there's something romantic there and it was not smooth sailing all the way like there was definitely a moment a few years later where I kind of blew up my life where I
1:35:03
left this steady job that I had at Airbnb and I moved to New York for a few months to do this Ted program and just a lot of changes were happening and we definitely hit a moment of like we're either going to break up or get engaged
1:35:15
and we navigated that moment and you know clearly how did you navigate that moment that that that is like such a decision where there's the fork in the road absolutely you're in a relationship you have a lot of sunk cost in relationship how did you make that
1:35:30
decision I think people often assume that relationships are smooth sailing and that you just keep dating until you're married but as somebody who does these like breakup consultations and has really talked to a lot of people over the years that idea of breakup or get
1:35:45
engaged is pretty common because it's like we either keep going and it escalates to marriage soon or there's no marriage at the end of this in which case we should break up because we both want to find other people to marry and so I think just like normalizing that
1:35:59
that happens or that people put ultimatums or deadlines on things I actually think that's happening all the time for us it was a lot of conversations about things that we wanted long term so for example one of the conversations that we had was I said
1:36:14
like here are three values of mine I really like travel and I want to travel more with you I want you to get to know my friends better because my friends are so important to me and I want those people to really know you and vice versa
1:36:28
and I probably want to live in community at some point and I want to know if you would be open to that and now six or seven years after that conversation it's like we've done a ton of international travel together most of my closest friends are his closest friends and we
1:36:43
lived in this amazing communal environment for two and a half years during the pandemic and so my husband is super stubborn he's super independent it's not that he changed himself it's that he understood things that were important to me and he was able to give
1:36:58
them to me in a way that felt genuine and there's plenty of things that I've done over the years such as you know I'm not vegan but like there's not a lot of meat in our home and like I'm closer to that or we're currently raising our
1:37:09
daughter to be vegan and so I just feel like we just kept finding that our values were aligned and that we loved hanging out together and like I can't even emphasize enough this idea of mutual trust like it's almost annoying to think about it but it's like I think
1:37:26
my husband's right most of the time and I think he's right about really big issues and so I feel so lucky that I have this person as my decision maker partner where I can really say like I have this opportunity this is how far away it is do you think
1:37:43
I should do it and when we talk through it at the end of the conversation like I either agree with him or he's helped me come to the right decision for myself and when people have Partners where they don't really trust or admire or respect them like I
1:37:56
couldn't be in that relationship and so I think that as parents you're just constantly making decisions and that's why I feel even closer to him than ever before because I'm like we're really basically Partners in this big class project and it's been really fun that's
1:38:12
awesome do you agree with the time boxing the ultimatum I guess as you called it or sort of like these these points where you you artificially create this one point for people who are not younger and maybe dating again is do you meet the kids yeah so I think that the
1:38:30
ultimatum I mean that term is even loaded at this point because there's like this Netflix show about the ultimatum and I think when people hear that they probably have a negative Assumption of somebody being like if you don't propose by the end of the year
1:38:40
we're breaking up like that doesn't sound collaborative to me but I actually do think that decision points are very important in life and in relationships so there's this great research about you know people eating cookies so like in
1:38:54
one part of the experiment people just eat cookies in a sleeve and they just eat the whole sleeve of cookies until it's over and then they're like damn I just ate a lot of cookies in another part of the experiment in between every few cookies are these colored pieces of
1:39:08
wax paper and when you get to the piece of colored wax paper you think like do I want to keep going or not and it creates a decision point that makes you consciously decide do I go forward or not and so I think that relationships do offer these decision points
1:39:24
do we want to be exclusive do we want to move in together do we want to get married do we want to have kids and each of those is an opportunity to check in with the other person and so sometimes creating that by saying hey let's go away for a weekend and talk about our
1:39:39
future you're really shining a light on an important topic that impacts both of you and so maybe I'll take back the word ultimatum and instead say I want people to make conscious choices I want them to be deciding not sliding through relationship transitions how do you have
1:39:57
those hard conversations in a secure way where a lot of people might interpret them as like oh no the relationship's over they close up they get defensive how do you structure them in a way where both people stay open and they're trying
1:40:11
to solve the problem together it's like we have a problem or we have a decision point but we're both on the same side of the table how do we deal with this versus the perception that one person might have that oh God it's over I'm
1:40:23
going to start protecting myself and the minute they do that it becomes almost a self-fulfilling prophecy so there's definitely people who are more experts on this than I am like a lot of people love Marshall Rosenberg who wrote non-violent communication or even I
1:40:37
think some of the work by different negotiation experts is really helpful because you say how can we solve this together so I would really encourage people to seek out those resources but some of the things that I can say are really
1:40:54
approaching things from being a team so we as a team are thinking about our financial future and this is you know I don't know if you know RIT sethy but sort of some of rit's work where it's like what is our rich life let's sit down together and have a fun generative
1:41:09
conversation around our rich life and isn't that fun to think about what we could achieve together versus hey I save a lot more money than you do I don't want your debts to be mine it's like we're adversaries and so how can you come at it from a place of we get to do
1:41:23
this really exciting thing of design our lives together let's have a conversation about it versus this is a negotiation where one of us wins and the other loses there's no one siiz fits all but how do you the money is a great point right
1:41:37
like how do you have those conversations when maybe there's a huge income gap or do you have a joint account or do you have separate accounts and how does that work does having a large income gap correlate to problems in a relationship I truly do pull on remes work for a lot
1:41:53
of this stuff you know he has this great podcast where he interviews couples and money and he has a new book money for couples and I just did a newsletter with him where it was about how to have the first money conversation and some of the
1:42:07
key tips are things like it's the first conversation it's not the only conversation so maybe it's just where you open up and you talk about what does money mean to you what was your family's relationship with money when you think about money What feelings does it evoke
1:42:21
and so just having a conversation where more people are sharing versus having a conversation that needs to come to a specific outcome like well I make two times what you make so I should pay two times the rent it's like you don't have
1:42:34
to get into all the Tactical stuff right away I think approaching it as the first of one of many conversations is a really healthy idea because I just went to this event that R had and he said a lot of times people don't even know what
1:42:49
somebody else makes or how much money they have you know until something like having a kid or you know buying a house and it's like we should be having conversations about sex money spirituality children a lot earlier I like that politics has become very divisive in the
1:43:08
last I don't know 10 years let's say What's the difference between having different political views and a deal breaker it's been so interesting in the 10 years of doing this to see how this has changed so 10 years ago I did an event with Christian Rudder one of the
1:43:26
founders of OK Cupid and we talked about this question that they have on an Okay Cupid survey of you know do you care about politics and what he told me at the time was it was way less important if the person had the same political
1:43:39
views as you as if they cared about politics or not and now fast forward to this year I would say that's no longer the case that people really do care about political views because it's moved into the category of values and so people are really thinking about if we
1:43:56
share political views that's a proxy for do we share values and so for a lot of people it's as important or more important to them than something like religion and so at the end of the day it's about understanding what really matters to you in your life what really
1:44:10
matters to you in a partner and if politics are something that's at the top of that list I think that that's a legitimate deal breaker interesting I remember being on a date right before covid and politics came up and I was like oh I'm moderate and she instantly
1:44:24
replied oh you can't make up your mind oh that's interesting and I was like whoa that's not what I said I was like I'm just sort of like Center you know I'm not extreme I'm not extreme left I'm not extreme right I'm policy based I'm
1:44:37
not party based and it turned into this like really interesting discussion about politics but it was clear from her point of view that that was never going to work did that change how you presented your political views on future dates yeah I was more hesitant to sort
1:44:54
of bring them up because it could be such a contentious point but maybe you should bring them up earlier if you know it's going to be a source of contention but I always think like let's avoid some of the more nasty stuff at least in the
1:45:07
first like few dates and then get into uh more understanding the person and how they approach life versus what do you think of abortion what do you think of politics what do you think of XYZ and cuz then you're just you're almost looking for an argument right yeah you
1:45:23
know I think it depends on how important those things are to you so if somebody said I'm Muslim I really want to raise my kids to be Muslim talking about that on a first date feels completely Fair totally so if you feel the same way
1:45:36
about your political views then I'm totally fine with somebody talking about that on first date I don't think it's let's to beate the role taxes play in America and and it sounds like to you having political views in common isn't as important so I could see you
1:45:50
talking about it later but but it's also shocking like I a Jewish woman once on a date asked me if I would convert and I'm like it's a first date like wow I don't know I've never thought about this you know like yeah but then when you but
1:46:02
that's important to you but then what what what did you think what did you say exactly what I just said like I don't know I've never thought about that I understand from you bringing it up so early that it's like clearly important to you you know that's a really
1:46:14
interesting one because I could see it going a few ways so I could see it being where the guy not just you but in general is like that's way too forward that's way too intense the truth is that if I was in love with somebody I might consider it but being asked on the first
1:46:29
date makes me so turned off that I'm not interested that is a much better response than but I could see no no no but I could see another argument in which the person says like oh you know what actually being Catholic is just such a big part of my family that like I
1:46:43
just cannot ever see that and then the woman gets the information that she needs and so I think a lot of times it's about how you bring things up you don't want to paint somebody in a corner where they feel like there's a wrong answer
1:46:55
you want to sort of share and model and make them feel safe saying whatever is true to them and so for example she could have said something like you know I've been dating for a while and the older I get the more I realize my Jewish identity is really
1:47:10
important to me and I grew up celebrating the holidays I really want to celebrate the holidays with my kids how important is your religion to you then you get a chance to talk about your experience versus feeling like there's a right answer like what would you say to
1:47:26
that question on a date I like your response which is you know if I was in love with somebody I don't think it would really matter I haven't thought about it at this point because I haven't reached that point with somebody but I
1:47:38
it wouldn't be a I don't think it would be a deal breaker for me but I don't know like I haven't got to that point right I think that's a great answer because she can either say h that's wishy-washy I think that's probably a no that's not good enough or okay he's open
1:47:51
to it religion's not something where he has his own conflicting thing that he's attached to yeah and so in most of these situations I feel like we think so much about like the strategy and the response and the right thing it's like what if we
1:48:03
just prioritize communication skills that allow people to ask questions that are true for them and listen to someone's answer and have a conversation around it instead of like some AI resume reviewer that's basically saying well they didn't have the right
1:48:18
keyword so I'm not going to pass them on to the recruiter I like that approach is it a red flag if a guy's best friend is a girl or a girl's best friend is a guy I don't care about any of that stuff no I knew you were gonna say that but
1:48:32
like statistically has that no but I'm I'm just wondering like what does the science say behind that I haven't seen science behind that but just in my own relationship I feel like a lot of my closest friends are men and the fact that you know just two days ago I spent
1:48:46
like a lot of the day with one of my close male friends and my husband was like oh I'm so glad that you're getting to see David like uh make sure you like ask me about this and that like I want the update and it's like it's so attractive to me that he's so confident
1:49:00
that you hang out together right sometimes this is a person but like I have plenty of male friends that he's not particularly close to and from the beginning I think he's just understood like Logan is a social creature with a lot of deep friendships and some of them
1:49:16
are men and there's this concept called other significant others which is this idea that it came from research from Eli fle and Ela Chong at Northwestern and you basically say to a couple you know who are the different people that you go
1:49:30
to in your lives for different things whether it's like talking about TV shows talking about baseball career advice and couples that have longer lists of the individual people they go to tend to have these happier more successful relationships because instead of putting
1:49:43
all the pressure on getting their needs met from one person they actually have this network that they lean on and so my husband and I really invest in this idea of other significant others to the point where our WhatsApp Channel with 30 of
1:49:56
our friends is called Osos and this is truly something that we in our community embody and so I think that when my husband knows I'm having brunch with Mike he's thinking oh Mike and Logan are just like these creative animals that literally have brunched with Post-it
1:50:11
notes and a notebook and like they're just going to jam out in a way that Logan and I don't and he feels like that makes Logan happy and makes our relationship stronger he doesn't feel threatened and I think that's hard a lot of people do feel threatened or they do
1:50:25
feel jealous but the more you can do in your own life to feel confident in yourself in your relationship people just are drawn to that sort of confidence and it's better for both Partners tell me more about this Oso WhatsApp group and like how it's used
1:50:41
and sure how it started I mentioned communal living so I have these friends named Kristen and Phil who are very Visionary people and they are people that are truly living their values and thinking like many steps ahead of most people so in their 20s or maybe it was
1:50:59
their early 30s when they were dating they lived in this communal house that they ran in San Francisco there was about like nine people in a house they would have dinner together and there was a lot of you know shared activities and
1:51:12
close relationships and none of none of this is sexual this is not like I I don't know sometimes people's heads jump to like orgies that's really not the vibe my mind did not okay good the vibe is really like people who come home from
1:51:22
work and like want to have an interesting dinner conversation with somebody else and like eat the like rice peel off that they made so then they said well you know we're getting to be in our mid-30s and people are going to start having kids soon well this house
1:51:34
is not going to work for kids so they bought a piece of property and they said we're going to turn this into the next phase where if people want to have kids they can have kids and in the beginning everyone's like this piece of land sucks
1:51:45
this is like close to the highway and close to Bart but like over the years everyone flocked there including my husband in me so during the pandemic when my husband was going through cancer treatment that's where we wanted to live we wanted to live with people with the
1:52:02
community of support with these other significant others and so we really had just this group of people who were either old friends or new friends to rely on and this place now has five kids it's soon going to have eight kids and people are just truly living in a pretty
1:52:19
radical way which is why do you have to have a concrete house with just you and your partner and your kid why do all your resources have to go towards making one dinner and doing all the dishes what if you only had to cook every 14 days
1:52:32
what if you could pull your resources and have a hot tub a cold plunge a sauna like that stuff is duable when people live in this alternative environment it's it's incredible because we tend to do that uh in Western world as we get older once we retire we go to tr yeah
1:52:49
and you know there's plenty of jokes there about like you know a millennial retirement Community or I think some call it like a rave for introverts they have a lot of funny names for it but the point is that this is a group of people who have decided life is better when
1:53:01
you're living with your friends they're not optimizing for the maximum square footage they're not maximizing for the toniest neighborhood they're really saying I feel happy when I see a friend in the middle of the day without social
1:53:15
coordination I feel happy when I have an interesting dinner conversation I love being able to host friends here and now having children there people just feel like oh well I never had to hire a babysitter because like I'll watch this parents kid or they'll watch my kids and
1:53:30
like I no longer live there I live like in a house like 10 minute walk away but I truly feel like the people who are there are way less stressed than the average parent that I know I think that that's true even if you're not living in
1:53:43
that Community I mean as a single parent it takes a village to raise your children and having that help and social support network easily accessible and I like how you mentioned uncoordinated kind of social events I remember I used to live in the neighborhood of a lot of
1:53:59
my close friends and then I moved yeah and I miss those impromptu uh sort of wines or walk by or stuff now it requires more coordination so there's a lot of research that shows that people are happier if they live within a five minute walk of their
1:54:12
friends so Phil one of the guys who started this community he's now built an entire company around this premise and the company is called live near friends and it's basically either how can you buy property with a friend or near a friend or even like rent something
1:54:25
nearby it's basically like instead of making your housing based on your commute or you know your favorite coffee shop like why are we not centering our relationships yeah I like that I think often it comes down to commute or cost
1:54:41
right we often trade off yeah money to live farther away from the city increasing our commute so that we can get a bigger house or I don't know what the variables are cuz I don't with that but so we're in a relationship what are the questions that we should be asking
1:54:58
oursel as we decide whether we want to commit to this person for the rest of our lives yeah this is really hard I mean the reason why I love that I have a background in Behavioral Science is that it's really about the science of decision-making and
1:55:14
so much of a relationship is am I ready to date who should I date should I keep dating this person should we move in together should we get married and so each of these is a pivotal point in your life and so the first thing I would say is just having a lot of honest
1:55:27
conversations so before my husband and I got married we did there's a great book called Eight dates by the Gans who are sort of the kings and queens of relationship science and really research backed and in the book there's a series
1:55:41
of dates that you should go on to get to know your partner and so there's conversations about money there's conversations around family there's conversations about hopes and dreams in the future and I did all of the dates with my husband sort of as this like
1:55:55
project where I was blogging about it but I'm really glad I had that container that forced me to do the dates because we got so much out of them that I think really did lead us to get engaged and kind of build a life together and so I think that the questions differ per
1:56:11
person but a lot of it just sitting down and think about like what does our life look in the future look like in the future like do you plan on working what are your values do you want to have kids what are things from your childhood that
1:56:22
you really want to repeat what are things about your childhood that you want to do the opposite of and I think sometimes when we're so in love with someone we just assume we're on the same page and so just kind of echoing our earlier sentiment that I think it's
1:56:34
about having these intentional conversations to decide is this somebody who I could really build a life with the other key thing is to understand that people often think am I making the right choice there's not really such thing as
1:56:50
the right choice I don't believe in Soul mates I think that you could have many great relationships with many great people and you get to decide is this the person that I want to do it with and so of course you can think about the lives
1:57:02
that you didn't live and all the other stories that you could have written but instead I think think about the fact that this is a story that I am excited to write your husband sounds like an awesome man he's great how do we end that relationship if we decide it's not
1:57:16
for us but we've been in the relationship so it's not after our first date but maybe we've been dating 3 months or months and we reached one of these points we've had these conversations now how do we respectfully break up okay we talked today about how
1:57:29
painful rejection is and so I think the first guiding principle for breaking up with someone really should be empathy and just understanding and really imagining how painful it is to be broken up with in most situations and so a few things to keep in mind so one of them is
1:57:45
there's this rule kind of in Corporate America that if you're going to lay somebody off or give them a bad performance review it shouldn't be the first time that they've gotten that feedback so I think it's much more fair to let somebody
1:57:57
know throughout the relationship if something isn't working I think it's so painful for people when somebody breaks up with them and says you know you love going to restaurants and City culture and I love camping and skiing but since we've been dating I haven't gotten to do
1:58:11
any of those things and then the person's like what you never brought that up once like of course we could have made time for that why were you keeping that from me and so I think just understanding that as things are happening and coming up share them with
1:58:23
your partner so that you can tackle them together maybe it comes to the same outcome of breaking up but don't kind of hide all of that until the moment that you break up with them another thing to keep in mind is I don't think it's the
1:58:34
opportunity to give somebody feedback I think that can be very painful for somebody so sometimes in a breakup scenario the person will be like tell me what I did wrong tell me when you fell out of love with me I don't find that that's helpful unless there's something
1:58:47
really specific like I constantly felt like you were breaking plans with me you know something that they can change but you were unreliable you were unreliable but a lot of times it's like you just weren't a match and whatever you say to
1:58:59
them is really going to stick in their mind and they're going to go over it a million times so I just sort of find that that's unhelpful there's also this idea do you know elandon his work so he has this concept of like the nice breakup person where
1:59:14
it's like I'll keep being in touch with you after the breakup because it makes me feel like I'm a nice person which makes me feel better but it's actually really about respecting your boundaries which is like it's probably better for you if we're not as in touch and so
1:59:26
really letting you define that or not trying to sort of assuage my own guilt by like being in touch with you all the time which actually makes things harder for you so I have a conversation guide in my book for how to have a breakup conversation which has a lot of things
1:59:44
about like preparing for it in advance so when are you going to have this conversation you know if somebody has a big presentation on Monday like don't do it Sunday night is this person able to get in touch with some friends or family
1:59:56
to support them afterwards so just really trying to soften the difficulty of the situation by setting them up to get support from other people sharing with them kind of how you're feeling but not giving feedback and then I think honestly not having sex with them and
2:00:11
giving them space to honor the fact that this is pet challenging and they need to move on I like that I'd be remiss if I didn't ask about dating profiles what are the tips that people uh the most common things that people get wrong yeah
2:00:24
so I've done a ton of research on this and I can tell you some of the main tips so your dating out profile is sort of like your billboard and if you were buying a billboard let's say on the 101 in San Francisco like you would of course think a lot about what you're
2:00:40
going to put on it and I think people should give the same amount of attention to their hinge profile so for example you are telling a story about who you are so let's say that you have a side of yourself that loves anime and there's a
2:00:53
side of yourself that's passionate about baseball if all of your pictures are from ComicCon I'm not going to see that so really I like to teach people this concept of your three big things what are three big things about yourself that you want to express in your profile and
2:01:08
then make sure that through your prompts and through your photos you're getting those things across another thing is having a mixture of humor and vulnerability you don't want to be all jokes and you don't want to be all super serious you want to show people
2:01:21
different sides of yourself you also don't want to fall into these dating app cliches so there's this one unhinge like I'm overly competitive about everything and people have seen that all the time so like at best they sort of just ignore
2:01:36
it and at worse they're like oh cliche like I'm not interested in that person there's actually a new feature that just came out on hinge called prompt feedback which uses AI to kind of give you personalized private feedback on your prompt responses so like if you give a
2:01:49
one-word answer or it's cliche it'll say like dig a little but deeper you know what are you overly competitive about so hopefully that's going to kind of raise all profiles other dos and don'ts you know don't have one of those we's Waldo
2:02:02
photos where we can't tell which one you are people don't like that um in general selfies perform worse if you have sunglasses or filters or you're wearing ski goggles it's really hard to tell what you look like so just like make it easy for the person to tell what you
2:02:16
look like have a photo of you know a clear head shot photo of your full body photo of you doing something that you love and then photo with friends and family but not so many that we can't tell which one is you but in general it's really about using it as an
2:02:33
opportunity to share who you are what you're looking for and what kind of person you want to meet should you smile smile's good should you have a pet if you have a pet sure but you know I think that when people you know what came to
2:02:47
mind there is like Tim Ferris did this thing I I think I remember this T and one was suful carrying aat on the cover I have seen over the years different research about people with cats people with dogs when I hear those things I'm just like do you have a
2:03:06
[ __ ] cat or dog like if it's really important to you put it in there but like don't dog bait somebody if you I just made that up but it's like if you have a friend with a cute dog like putting the dog in your picture it's like that's not representative of your
2:03:20
life it's like show us authentically what spending time with you would be like so if you once went on a hike but you actually spend every Saturday night playing board games take a picture at board game night don't show that one hiking photo and so I think the dog or
2:03:36
cat thing kind of fits into that overall advice of authentically show us who you are and if that involves your dog great but if not like don't take 8,000 pictures some of which have a stranger's dog in that I always end on the same
2:03:49
question which is what is success for you success for me is balance feeling like I'm not forsaking my health for the sake of career not feeling like I'm forsaking my husband for the sake of our daughter not feeling like I'm forsaking my family for the
2:04:09
sake of my friends and really just knowing my priorities and having that reflected in how I spend my time thank you so much this was an awesome conversation thanks for having me I really enjoyed it [Music] thanks for listening and learning with us for a complete list of episodes show
2:04:33
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