0:00
Toby, there was something that happened recently and we had already scheduled uh to have this conversation and I saw it and I was like, man, I I'm dying to know what Toby thinks of this and it was when Amazon recently blocked Muse.
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0:11
I would love to know your reaction to that when you saw that. >> Yeah.
0:16
Um I found out after posting that uh we are embracing Muse.
0:19
So that was kind of a fun experience.
0:21
Um uh so like uh that looked like pretty cheeky because there's like I think people sort of draw to a contrast of um Shopify and Amazon taking basically polar opposite positions to um uh you know the incredible agentic um uh capabilities are coming out of you know like big companies Muses specifically I think is is such a remarkable product.
0:43
Um, it's funny because people's reaction was very surprised that Shopify and Amazon found themselves on different sides, but like to me this like I mean that's been the last 20 years, right?
0:54
Like it's it's it's um there's a difference of philosophy I think in commerce and I think um neither of them is necessarily a philosophical like like a like a like a like a right position.
1:04
It's just like these are two different approaches that just I I think Shopify and um Amazon have always represented.
1:10
have always represented. It's like um um one is the digitization of a department store which is like um you know bringing forward the merchandiser the like um you know the everything store you go to one place you get everything and um uh its strength is through inventory and depth of inventory but not um uh through distinction um usually or at least um not through storytelling and sort of the
1:36
more um uh boutique style independence uh you know people engaging in entrepreneurship um philosophy that's like been represented by Shopify and so it's it's it I think it's like it's like it seems to me like another implementation of of of a longstanding um you know collaborative for project of like of the internet to figure out which side it's on or how people would like to consume the products. When I saw it, my
2:00
When I saw it, my reaction was, "Wow, that makes total sense to me because Amazon has not only are they an aggregator in the Ben Thompson kind of traditional sense of it, but they have a massive ads business to protect. Shopify doesn't."
2:12
Um, we'll get more into this, but your business model might be one of the most aligned with this rise of the anotic web that everyone's experience experiencing right now.
2:22
Um, do you think that's the reason that some of these large platforms have already kind of started to instinctually throw up their walls to these agents is ads to protect or is it more than that? >> I don't know.
2:34
I I I I mean the ads business I I I'm not that deep into it because to your point we don't have one.
2:40
Um um we fairly intentionally built the business in such a way that um uh up and down the stack we are on the same side of the table as our customers.
2:49
Um and um this is specifically the reason why we haven't built a marketplace.
2:54
Um um uh in in in the traditional sense because uh the marketplace is a three-sided uh situation.
3:01
You have of course the corporate entity with its own interests but you have uh buyers and sellers and you need to make a sort of uh choice between them.
3:09
Um the correct choice in that moment is will always be the buyers because those are ones you optimize and you just like easy observable data too. So it's easier.
3:19
We specifically like just we look out for merchants.
3:22
We would like make it easy to for entrepreneurship.
3:25
We um um you know this is sort of our obsession um like like in this place and so you know with the emergence of a gentic world um I I I think it's even too early to tell if this is truly playing into our um um sort of worldview better than the aggregators.
3:42
I think what's the I think the aggregators have a little bit more um concrete uh need to stay in control.
3:49
Um and um you know some of the things that the agents do are kind of scary, right?
3:53
Like they're just like there's a lot of impersonation going on.
3:54
Of course there you know browser use is sort of it's cheeky, let's call it like this.
3:58
Uh it's it it it doesn't work well but it makes everything possible and I think that's more important right now. Right.
4:08
So, and so I understand why um um the agents go this direction and for us it's like well it's we would like the check out to work really well like we are building lots and lots of APIs and systems to make the check out work well but we are totally like if it's the person purchasing or like an agent on their behalf that's fine by us.
4:27
So it's we we try to support it all. >> Yeah.
4:31
You've also announced partnerships with Instinct with Grockbot recently.
4:33
Is there a philosophy of like which agents you want Shopify to work with versus not or are you basically saying look any any of these things like this is the next wave and it makes sense for us to partner with all of it.
4:46
partner with all of it. So um like the situ like Shopify is very well known for its online stores but really um is being used um just for for so in so many other situations right like it's um obviously most people probably purchased things on
5:01
Shopify through maybe an Instagram ad or something like this that's a very common sort of we call it the LAU of small businesses you know and so um Shopify is fundamentally just allows you to sell and it's not like the Walmart store is your home base it's the easiest thing to see. Um, it's the thing that merchants
5:18
Um, it's the thing that merchants control.
5:20
It's that they design, where they represent themselves, where they do their storytelling.
5:24
Um, but like, uh, people sell through, uh, any of the social channels, people sell through point of sale, people sell on crafts fairs.
5:33
Um, and, uh, people sell we like like the more places um, people um, sell their products, um, I think the more valuable Shopify becomes.
5:41
So it's it's very natural for us to like make sure that um um you know we get the products that like like I I think Shopify is presiding over the most interesting product logo on planet earth.
5:52
Um because most of new businesses building you know making you know the best fashion designers all the way to the newest electronics they they they have a Shopify store.
6:04
They start on Shopify often.
6:05
Um and um so we want to bring that kind of look to like everywhere.
6:11
So, it's very natural for us.
6:12
>> This interview is presented by Hyper Agent.
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6:58
I'm curious how agents are already in your all's view changing how people are shopping.
7:05
Are there early trends you've noticed?
7:07
>> Yeah, so uh it's it's really I mean it's definitely increasing.
7:10
It's of obviously we enter the this year with a fairly low base.
7:15
Um so um the percentages are absurd but like they also don't mean much.
7:20
What's really interesting is the sort of changes like the types of purchasing that's that's happening.
7:26
fairly often it's the sort of project based purchases like um help me get everything I need for setting up my home gym is like the kind of um um action that we see um they the planning we can't see this but I imagine this conversation might even start with a
7:41
picture of a room or a floor plan like an entire consider like phase of like figuring out what should be in there what you would like you what you like to do so deeply considered um fairly high um um order value purchases happen with increasing in frequency through agents. the the things that I'm I personally
8:00
the the things that I'm I personally think are um really really fantastic are the like where the where the agents like I mean I guess the research is one part but like things such as um I would like to do a project let's say I have a a 3D
8:17
printer or whatever like would like a project with my kids on a weekend buy me everything I need that will be in the end time and like this is like it's such an actionable really delightful experience to say Hey, I would we we we're going to build a whatever it is. Um something with a
8:32
Um something with a little bit of electronics in it or maybe needing some magnets and some filament and it figures this all out and just like places for order and places from the local stores make sure everything is in place.
8:43
So I think this is the kind of thing we see more and more.
8:45
Um but honestly this is super quickly evolving and there's entire forums now dedicated for people like just like posting um you know I think the muse case uh word is a fun one that that the muse team has started using um for just finding delightful uh experiences that the people are doing with like with agents.
9:07
>> It sounds like a longtail is forming that maybe didn't exist before based on the examples you just gave. Yeah.
9:11
And again, this is it keeps getting more and more um I mean I just enjoy how futuristic today feels like you know in a in this way like just like >> I I just marvel at this like um you know I I grew up reading lots of sci-fi and like the world was always like I just enjoy seeing the sort of um imagination by the authors about you know like how do they describe the future?
9:37
It's a really really daunting task if you think about it.
9:40
You know, extrapolating from the 60s to the 2020s or whatever, figuring out what the world is like would be like.
9:47
And so um and and some some did it extremely well and some uh you know sort of got the details quite wrong, but like um plausible.
9:54
You look at today and you just like when when you actually hear what like especially the really uh sort of agentically pilled people do, it's like it's it's I I don't know.
10:06
I I have endless um uh like interest in hearing these like uh crazy stories.
10:11
stories. Like I um like to stay on the Muse example like it's quite easy to put Muse on what's called your like your tail net which means that it can like access devices in your house which again you have to be comfortable with this
10:24
>> but for that weekend project of 3D printing something you can also just connect it directly to your printer and like it can reorder the filament when it's empty and like it's starting to like take more active roles in um in this and this already works in some instances. Um, I think we we are
10:39
Um, I think we we are currently in a phase where the agents are largely helping people do things that they are already doing better.
10:46
And I think what usually follows afterwards is a phase that we discover completely new things that weren't possible before.
10:54
And I think and like I think you're starting to see the glimmers of that and like that's going to that's usually when technology gets the most fun when people are finding sort of a digitally native um new possibilities.
11:04
the sci-fi point you brought up. You're right.
11:06
Sci-fi is often very preient and it also motivates a lot of the builders in tech uh to build what they build.
11:13
Um I was curious and I know you read a lot.
11:15
Is there anything from sci-fi um that you've read that you're seeing now take shape that you're like, "Wow, how in the world did they predict that?"
11:24
Yeah, I I I recently reread Cryptonomicon from Neil Stevenson and um uh which I I I loved reading when I was like early 20s and my god like my my son just read it and we were talking about so I picked it up again and I was like like literally everything in the book just happened you know like it's all sounded pretty fantastical but like um you know just I he had an absolute read even of cryptocurrencies and sort of fractional ownership and so on.
11:51
It's like how how did he pull that off? Right.
11:55
And so um you know it just I that's more near future.
11:59
I I think um when it uh goes further out I think it's more like the overall picture.
12:04
It's like it's like no one got it right.
12:06
But like if you put all the pieces together, so you sort of like what I what I really really like doing frankly is like go through the books that I enjoyed and also just check when they were like written because at this point in my life I know enough about history so that I realize um that a lot of the sci-fi books um actually tell you more about the time they were written in than the time they were written about. >> Oh, interesting.
12:29
>> Oh, interesting. because you know just like fundamentally like you can even look at the Spider-Man comics it's like during the nuclear age it was an atomic spider right like it's like just like it's like it's always like um these are things are representations by the time they come from the question like the the
12:45
this the sad thing is I um that there was probably a >> 50 maybe 20 year period where I don't think um people wrote a lot of sci-fi that was like like it was very much um when it was sci-fi it was Hunger Games um it was very dystopian Um, and outside of maybe maybe the Andy Weir books or so, I think there was like maybe a little optimistic um, sci-fi. Um, and I
13:06
Um, and I think that's actually contributed to sort of a tech mopiness in in in the industry.
13:14
>> Was this around the era of a watchman and stuff too or >> it's it's exactly it's just like these kind of it just I I think I mean you could also take a sort of commercial lens to this.
13:23
It just turned out that uh writing dystopian uh um sci-fi or like near future um scenarios um ended up becoming bestsellers and that was never true for the sci-fi books.
13:34
It was always it was always niche.
13:36
So it it wasn't people just wrote the book they had in them I think instead of writing them for an audience.
13:42
an audience. So who whatever caused this trend it certainly was that like techn the technology industry turned quite pessimistic and um what's so lovely about I think now is like there's just like like there's just more optimism
13:58
around again and I think that's that's just really really good because technology is just progress um it's a sort of core ingredient in progress and um like for the first time in in in our lives we have software that um we train rather than write. And we then basically
14:13
And we then basically have to interview it for its capabilities afterwards.
14:17
And it just seems like even even that's like sounds like straight out of sci-fi, doesn't it?
14:23
And so I feel like I always want to look around just to say, "My god, I can't believe like I have like this infinitely patient um aentic um sidekicks around that like it just helped me kind of do cool all day like and then do the stuff I have to do easier and make my my my life a couple% better."
14:40
And so it's it's it's it's quite fantastical.
14:43
It's a wonderful time to be in tech.
14:45
Do you think that optimism is just because of the feeling of invention and invention is a thing that naturally gives humans optimism?
14:55
>> Yeah, I believe that's exactly it.
14:55
I think it's you hit the nail on the head there.
14:58
It's I think humans need a frontier of sorts.
15:01
Um because it I think we work best when there's opportunity because obviously a game theoretically if there's no if there's no frontier or no perceived not not enough perceived growth around us we fundamentally the correct strategy ends up becoming competing for what's already exists.
15:18
And it sounds like a small thing, but um the difference in um what it feels like to be in an um in an environment of um uh where where zero sum um thinking predominates or or uh positive sum thinking where their opportunity is about and like people are going for new markets, new ideas.
15:39
Um it's it doesn't it's it's it's about the biggest difference you can possibly imagine.
15:45
These are two separate sites on the points on a very very very long spectrum.
15:48
It's the thing that I think is so uh intoxicating joining a startup that's winning because there's so obvious growth around you.
15:57
It's it's it's it's so the optimism comes easily like no no one feels the need to be pessimistic.
16:04
Of course, pessim pessimism is always what is the default of everyone because it sounds sophisticated.
16:09
You sound smart being pessimist.
16:10
Um optimism sounds naive.
16:10
Um um therefore it's um the domain of usually only very high status people.
16:16
um or um uh the crazy people um or finding a niche a very small group of people where everyone agrees that it's okay to be optimistic which is usually comes these days in the form of a company or or startup.
16:31
or startup. Um >> and so um but once pessimist like once the physics returns to this uh the the re reversion to the means that uh it's sophisticated to be pessimistic um and um that usually means you don't take advantage of as many opportunities which then leads to um lack of growth and lack
16:51
of appreciation of opportunity which then very quickly leads to uh zero sum thinking and competition and I think somewhere in the story is also sort of a fate of um what happens with um uh often with companies uh that they go through the maturity cycle with industries I think this is precisely the thing I
17:10
described earlier that happened to tech what's again like I I I just like I'm so fortunate um um and we are also fortunate I think to have opened a completely new frontier not just one that is like oh there's like you know new new little item to explore for 15 minutes and we afterwards we are like
17:29
we're good we going back to what we It's like it's like magical territory in which uh we teach sand to think and um um uh afterwards we have to reinvent everything and like it's like it's just such a wonderful opportunity to just like make like the best version of um you know all bets are off path dependence is out of a window. We can
17:48
We can reinvent everything.
17:50
Uh we can fix everything and our computers now fulfill wishes. It's like unbelievable.
17:54
The way you said that is so interesting to me.
18:00
Zero sum thinking and the contrast to me when I heard you say that it's like why is zero sum thinking such a a negative thing and I feel like there's a futility in it.
18:09
There's a futility in having a zero sum view of the world because there's only so much to fight over. >> Yeah.
18:16
>> And and what you're describing is like abundance. >> Yeah.
18:19
>> Which I I'm wondering if you agree with that. >> No, 100%.
18:22
>> No, 100%. is like I mean again zero sum thinking means that you have to compete for every piece of resource and that means for every time you win someone else loses and that is a mindset that's common right like and and and it leads to I mean if if a world would be like
18:36
this it would be a pretty pretty bad place like it's like um we do not want this we are also lucky because it's um serious some thinking is a choice if you understand economics reasonably well or at least you understand how value is created in the world. You realize that
18:52
You realize that there's we aren't probably even at the first basis points of value um that's been converted into economic value from the potentiality around us, right?
19:01
Like we I mean this is what AI tells us ourselves.
19:04
Like the AI industry is already has added like probably trillions to uh of of of new um objective value into onto planet Earth like um and so all that value was hiding in floatingpoint maf.
19:19
So the difference like we we've had floatingoint math for a very very long time.
19:24
We we knew about matrix multiplications for a very very long time.
19:28
Uh yet I don't think we realized that um at the limit we could extract trillions and trillions of dollars of growth from just doing uh floatingoint math and matrix multiplications much faster and uh in a particular way. Right?
19:42
So I think this is way you have to think of everything including resources.
19:46
Like before we knew what to do with uranium, we had no idea what like the entire value of nuclear energy was uh locked behind this piece of knowledge.
19:56
The second we figured out how to break um the atom, suddenly there was an infinite amount of energy and then we chose not to use it for some reason.
20:02
And so we um like this is the way the world truly works.
20:05
It's like we we are gifted with utterly unfin infinite um potential value.
20:10
Every product that could exist is out there.
20:15
many many many and most of those shouldn't exist for very good reasons that someone might or might not discover.
20:20
Um but many products need to exist and I mean this is what we see in like in millions of businesses are formed on Shopify to um create the thing that someone feels like needs to exist in the world and that is not like it is it would be so impossible for me to be um uh thinking in uh uh zero sum because I I see this every day.
20:42
You know, again, you know, someone quit their accounting job to um create an uh like a completely amazing business that that now hundreds of thousands of people appreciate the products of and that was a choice at a lunch break at some point, right?
20:56
And again, if that lunch break would have gone slightly different um uh you know, then um that value would just not exist.
21:05
And so I I see this every day and it seems very very natural to me, but I feel the need to bring that up every once in a while because it seems um like most people don't have such a fortunate vantage point um to to to see it play out in front of them every day. >> Yeah.
21:19
I mean, if you think about Shopify's mission, you know, empowering entrepreneurship, I was going to ask this later, but hearing you talk about it now, I'm really curious what you make of this growing negative sentiment towards AI. I'm actually not sure.
21:32
We're here um in Toronto at your office.
21:34
here um in Toronto at your office. I'm actually not sure totally how the difference is in Canada versus the US if there is much of a difference where it maps, but I I'm trying to ask everyone, especially folks who are outside of the
21:46
US on the show, this question because it also differs based on, you know, where you are in the world, obviously your economic status, >> but be curious to hear based on everything you just said, the positive vision you're laying out, >> how you make uh of the moment we're in and how people feel. I am probably not
22:01
I am probably not the most representative person to talk to on this.
22:06
I I don't think >> but you're seeing all these new businesses and you know I imagine there's more businesses being started on Shopify now than ever. >> 100%.
22:14
Like think about it like it's um entrepreneurship is one of the probably jobs that is most benefiting from AI that imaginable right because um again you're trying as an entrepreneur you have to kind of do everything.
22:27
Um at the very least you have to understand every job because you have to hire someone and then judge if they are doing a good job for you.
22:33
It it's extremely hard and very very daunting and um once upon a time we had about 80 almost 80 people 80% of people on Shopify uh said yes to the to the question um if they have someone in their life who would answer an entrepreneurial question in 24 hours over email or text or something.
22:51
And um that didn't mean that like these people are abundant.
22:56
That means that it's survivorship bias.
22:58
It's the people who build the businesses are the people who can ask the questions to someone, right?
23:03
And so this is now democratized like AI is very good at answering every entrepreneur question often um better than some of the people who might have replied to my emails.
23:13
Um turns out there's a couple of core myths that western civilization is built on and one of them is a Prometheian myth myth.
23:20
It's like the Prometheian myth means uh Prometheus brought fire from Mount Olympus to the humans and and got the whole party going um and then of course was uh doomed to um torture forever uh for doing such a thing.
23:34
I think this myth is uh casting a more powerful spell over us than uh people generally admit.
23:42
We have a very strong uh sense that everything that's good also has negative um um consequences of equal proportion.
23:51
No doubt is like like AI is potentially the most powerful thing that ever will be invented by humans um or definitely in the top top top few ones.
23:58
So it's a lever and so obviously it can be used for really good and really bad.
24:04
It some of like on an individual level it will have enormous positive influence on some and negative on others.
24:12
So like all this sort of as a proviso like I I I just don't think this this usually plays out this way.
24:19
I think the positive effects are going to be so vastly higher than the negative effects and I get the like to to say nothing about the sort of pdoom scenarios which I I just like my pdoom is zero.
24:29
It's like again at the end of the day it's floating points.
24:32
floating points. um the conse there's going to be con consequences but like my god again I'm a technologist so I can say this like I think to me dystopia is always just 40 years ago >> like it's just like do you know how bad the Wi-Fi was 30 years ago and no Wi-Fi you know like just like you teleport me
24:49
30 years back and would seem horrible from today's perspective and I think this is just we're just going to keep this going I think things can get really really really great >> I think maybe where it's coming from is you're describing AI as leverage which I agree with and I agree with you on the PDM thing and it's it's math at the end of the day. But I think the reason a lot
25:05
But I think the reason a lot of people feel very strongly about this is some leaders are talking about AI if it's an entity that we can't control. >> Yeah.
25:15
>> That's a god essentially. >> Yeah.
25:18
>> Um you obviously seem to disagree with that. >> Yes.
25:20
>> Um is there anything that can happen to Cuz it feels like it may get worse before it gets better in terms of the sentiment and in the US we have midterms coming up and all these things and it's going to be this political lightning rod.
25:31
Um, and it's a it's a thing to which people can assign a lot of um pent up frustration they have with their lives and the economy and the government.
25:40
>> And I'm not sure it's going to get better before it gets worse.
25:44
>> Yeah, I think I think I mean I think people are right to pay attention uh to to to AI a lot.
25:48
Um, and it's it it would be extremely hard to sort out um what opinion to have about it given the sort of public discourse.
25:56
Again, I I'll just go back to pessimism sounds smart, optimism sounds naive.
26:02
Um and um there there's just like the incentives are such that it's um um a lot of people chose the pessimism route um um for for one reason or another.
26:13
And that's the predominant narrative you're going to get.
26:17
I think I I think this is not going to take too much because personal experience with AI is going to become just like much more common and and people will very very very like very much like the AI like again just again we've been making trying to make software that makes it easier to make entrepreneurship for like 22 years now.
26:36
uh and um what we hear from our customers is that they now feel that computers actually are as good as uh how we techies used to describe computers you know like when like I remember this as a teenager I tried to tell my parents it's like these things can do everything we network them together like it's revolutionize everything you just like
26:59
you just write this bit of thing and then it has this new capability and like to me that was very normal because that's what I could do and then turns out That was like a skill that ended up not being that well diffused because it kind of you had to frankly spend your entire teenage years into in a dark room quite cultivating your programming ability. >> The terminal is intimidating
27:16
>> The terminal is intimidating >> which was exactly not exactly what to me this seemed like why would I do anything else, right?
27:22
So this is like not not exactly um like I probably don't even know if I was anything else I could have been doing during this time.
27:27
So it's like um I suddenly didn't find out.
27:28
Um and so um uh I couldn't stay away.
27:32
and so um uh I couldn't stay away. it was too interesting and so uh not everyone's like me and that's thank god and so um uh it turned out this like using computers in this way I can describe and I always felt about them was a very very rarely diffused skill which then meant that people like me should go and build um as generic as possible software so that other people
27:55
can experience at least a semblance of this through like software like Shopify and others um um but now we have a completely again I keep going back this now you kind of have a person by your side and your computer fulfills wishes like it's like um um the future versions that people will experience of Shopify um or and and software like it um are going to be just like remarkable pieces of engineering. Well,
28:20
Well, that's not actually even the engineering.
28:24
It's like it's a remarkable um pieces of collaboration between uh synthetic intelligence and real intelligence trying to create something that's like like it just can completely give we we want to give people cruise control for their ambitions, right?
28:40
control for their ambitions, right? like we just want them to be successful doing their their thing and I think so many more people can do that in the future and I think that's like I don't know people will experience this but I think the stories will wash the uh pessimism away
28:55
>> there's some interesting stats in the US about how net new business creation is is skyrocketing um and I'm curious to hear if that maps to what you're seeing on Shopify are there more Shopify storefronts being open now than ever can you talk what's the curve >> absolutely Um it's it's it's it's it's going really really well. Um and uh
29:14
Um and uh earlier um too.
29:16
It's like um um it's um younger uh I think the new generation is extremely entrepreneurial.
29:22
It's really I mean there's a um combination of um uh AI use but also um their media as much as I think I think every generation parents sort of malignance the media consumptions of the next generation um uh you know with no break.
29:39
Um so um I I don't know how often Mr.
29:43
beast got banned in um in various households, but like I'm not so sure that was the right call because it's clearly entertainment, but it's very very uh entrepreneurial by itself.
29:54
Like like the kids grew up seeing money being used to build incredible, you know, games and stages and um competitions and like like the the the particular content is you can think about whatever you want but the meter content was like deeply entrepreneurial and very very clear and then >> well well you can see that in the creator too.
30:18
You can see their progression. Yes.
30:20
>> Them gathering more resources, becoming more established, building things.
30:22
more established, building things. Yeah, even just showing hey this is the kind of things that you can do when you get resources is like actually useful because like why are you like why strive why why why um you can make good money working 35 to 40 hours for someone else um you know why spend a 100 working for yourself right like it's um and so I
30:45
think um that and then also just like the clever use and like the clear sort of progression in in scale of this um felt probably to any um at least my my kids sort of confirm this just like felt like a journey they were on with Jimmy um and um that is an intoxicating experience and you want to be part of more such journeys of again journeys of
31:07
growth journeys of opportunity we see a lot more of business formation now um and I think this sort of goes to your previous point of um attitudes towards AI once again it's leading in the US significantly it's I think other uh parts of um western world are on an early incline on that sort of map slope of America but like it is just remarkable how America is a country of
31:35
early adoption and um >> so I think it's it's it's interesting to see even these sort of societal almost stereotypes um bear out in the data so >> um I think >> uh I spent some time in Europe recently and the AI attitude is it's not more negative It's it's it's a little bit it's definitely more cynical which um I think it's just Europe. I'm European so
31:56
I'm European so I can say that um and um definitely German but like which is also fair like things should you know it's fair for country to decide hey like stuff has to prove itself first.
32:06
Um, that's that's that's that's all good.
32:08
But it's almost like it it doesn't effect like it's when when you talk with some people about AI, it's like, oh yeah, yeah. Um, I understand AI.
32:15
Um, I installed ChatgPD when it came out.
32:19
It's it hallucinates a lot.
32:22
And we like, yeah, okay, there's like five more layers to this now.
32:24
You like this is like it's like you're not completely in the meter there.
32:28
completely in the meter there. So it's like people reason on bad uh prior um and uh I think that's uh hopefully uh like changing now too because again but muse is not available in Europe right so this is this is also a problem in Canada we are a little bit luckier so we we
32:45
usually we usually still get the >> I was going to ask how is it in Canada compared to you said you you know you talked about US and then Europe what about Canada >> I think I think Canada is as so often um somewhere in between maybe slightly closer to United States and on respect than than Europe. Um I always called
32:59
Um I always called Canada as America for Europeans and it's like it feels like pretty apt.
33:04
Canada takes a lot of pride in having um massively contributed to AI.
33:09
like here in Toronto um um the like I think Alex Net got trained here in U of and of course Professor Hinton is here and um go here and >> and then then there's some uh some some some labs now too but like really sort of especially in the um during the nuclear winter of uh machine learning um here was a pocket where where people continue pursuing it and laid the foundations for for for what came afterwards.
33:38
And I think that's that that's that's a that's a that that helps a little bit here.
33:43
So anyway, I think it's it's not as uh unbridled as I see in Silicon Valley.
33:49
It's um um and but it's like very clear this is the future.
33:54
We need to use it to um you know make uh better companies, make better government uh services and uh you know bring productivity up.
34:04
These kind of conversations are being had here. Yeah.
34:07
We were saying before we started that um you go to California about once a month.
34:10
I'm curious given the energy you're describing there.
34:12
Does this moment ever make you want to move Shopify to California? >> Um no.
34:18
I I I'm very very happy to be um uh outside.
34:24
I think it's uh like I I I love Silicon Valley really.
34:27
Um, I I think a big skill of mine is like being an outsider and observing things a distance and allowing myself to uh not take the exact package and put it like into my neurons, but actually like do a little bit of an uh edit for sens for sensibilities.
34:46
Um, it's um Silicon Valley RAW is a is a >> not for the faint of heart. It's a lot. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
34:54
you have to the swings are um massive.
34:56
I I think of Silicon Valley as a pendulum that just goes like just rapidly and I believe there's always some green zone somewhere and I try to like just like like spend more time in that. Um so I don't know.
35:08
Um I think that's a um my my criticism of Silicon Valley is uh that companies are very very convergent.
35:17
Um like cultures are really not very different.
35:19
It's like try to find a company that truly escapes the the the OKR system and uh you know just like it's it's just at some point gravity is too much uh to escape some of these ideas and it means you can't really reinvent uh um things very well um then time get better.
35:38
Silicon Valley has the unique thing of so much business, new business formation and an ability to grow new businesses so quickly that sometimes someone manages to build like enough of a different culture to then have almost a pull for everyone else to to adjust to this.
35:56
So it is able to evolve slightly.
35:59
Um but like I think you I like I I I really enjoy company building.
36:02
I enjoy thinking about systems.
36:05
I enjoy the having the ability to make decisions that are just like go like are they different from the rest of the industry and like either from first principle figure out what's like why no one's doing it or discover something new and then tell others.
36:18
I think that's >> um it's not the most important um thing in the about every individual change we make but like I think in the aggregate it's like I I I think there needs to be diversity of companies like companies for different types of people.
36:33
Um I I think um it's bad when companies try to be everything to everyone and um so I I find that just much much easier to do from a distance.
36:43
Um >> we were talking also earlier about u you know you've been on the board of Meta for a while and I' I'd be curious to hear what it's like uh working with Mark and uh Mark's been on the show recently.
36:56
We were talking about Muse and I assume you got to try Muse early as did I.
36:58
uh and what it was like seeing that kind of take form inside the company and then obviously the world feels like it's changed now.
37:06
But yeah, maybe a little bit about like how Meta fits into what you just described about Silicon Valley.
37:13
>> Yeah, Meta is I I I think it's such a fascinating company.
37:16
Mark is uh clearly one of the best entrepreneurs who's ever um lived.
37:20
um he's um just a remarkable uh individual in the way he um like really orchestrates a company but is able to just change on like I mean I think I think everyone to have got a bit of a front row seat here then um you know I I was incredibly thankful for the gifts that meta made to the really all of us by open sourcing the llama models.
37:46
that really started the trend or like actually I who knows what would have exist if any open source would have existed without that um it created like a norm or like it's like if meta can do this others can do it too and um I think it's inspired more companies to to to to go for this and I think we are all um um that is I think I think without the open-source availability of AI models I I would modify my optimism slightly.
38:12
I would modify my optimism slightly. I think the I think my optimism is uh like it would still not be um it would still be sky-high but like maybe not as uh we own cruise control as uh as it is now um because I think um you need competition
38:30
um in in a space and I think um having so so this was a massive contribution I'm was incredibly thankful for uh for that um and it's a one of those decisions you know like if Mark wouldn't like a founder wouldn't have been present there would be No way meta would have done this. So that was great. But So that was great.
38:46
But then like there was a big setback with the llama 4 which is like this happens.
38:52
This happens at every lab.
38:52
It just happened very publicly with meta that there was a mistrain. It didn't work.
38:58
There was some uh ideas that didn't quite plan out.
39:00
That's you know just a null result essentially in science.
39:01
And so seeing what Mark did and how quickly he jumped into action to reassemble like an amazing team that's now training uh like just absolutely insane models and like really just like the quickness by which they came back is like and anyway so I'm fascinated with this.
39:18
Um I'm also really thankful from a personal perspective here just to be having this view because every time I come back I really feel like um thankful that Shopify is not 70,000 people like I I don't think I I'm I'm a leader who could deal with that.
39:35
I I think it's it's like you have to be mark quality entrepreneur to do this not to be quality entrepreneur.
39:41
So like it's it's a it's a there's always another level and it's nice to live at um that kind of scale vicariously rather than having to um figure out from first principles that I probably can't handle that.
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43:16
Rules and restrictions may apply.
43:16
Rules and restrictions may apply. you were saying uh which I agree with like if Mark hadn't been there that moment with uh what's happening now and him rebuilding things probably wouldn't have happened or even the original llama which I agree with that made me think are there things that and you've talked
43:31
a lot about how like the pandemic was very hard for Shopify obviously um are there things that you've reflected on over the last several years where you're like man if if I wasn't here and I didn't have um the setup that I have uh as the founder and CEO like Shopify would be in a really rough spot right now. Is there anything you look back on
43:48
Is there anything you look back on and like this is the call that I had to make and it was it was hard and I had to convince everyone but here we are.
43:56
>> You know, like I think companies that have their founder slot filled are just completely different beasts because they have an asset that's like impossible to replicate, right?
44:08
Like I just it's not actually as much about like I mean if if if you if you have Mark Zuckerberg in a founder slot then that's really really like like it's not just like you have founder slot filled you also have Mark so that's excellent but just having a founder is
44:21
actually incredible because there's just like an ability to um cut bureaucracy cut through red tape make decisions fast like one one example of this was like um then um as a technologist I want to have a really good read on the future right That's important. We make products that
44:37
We make products that take a while to create and so we have to have we have to build for a future as it will exist rather than one that does exist right now.
44:44
If we do this and we get it exactly right, we might actually change the sort of particulars about future.
44:52
Maybe not it would have happened anyway but we have might have an impact on it.
44:56
Um which is uh really really fun.
44:59
But once I built conviction of like here's here's something that needs to happen.
45:02
Um, I have tools that like a professional manager who would be hired just doesn't have.
45:07
I can go and say send send a memo to the company about, hey, we are now requiring reflexive AI use for everything and I'm going to ask you every time you need something from me about how has your AI experiment failed.
45:20
>> I assume a committee did not review that. That's right. Before you sent that.
45:23
>> So, uh, that's very true.
45:23
Um, uh, and yeah, committees >> if they had, maybe that wouldn't have been sent. >> Yeah.
45:28
I yeah I'm I'm pretty down on committee so I just like I call it's it's um I I >> and it was controversial when you sent that there was a lot of headlines about that >> but not in Shopify which was fun.
45:37
Uh so like in Shopify actually started I think more people ended up paying attention to the memo after the press made a big deal out of it and said oh that's like >> my mom asked me about this.
45:50
It's like oh yeah so I could had this wonderful conversation.
45:54
There were all this AI usage we are doing.
45:55
I actually just thought this sounded exactly like what you say at town hall.
45:58
So like that was actually gratifying because um it it it was seen as controversial but really not inside of a firm.
46:05
That just means we we've managed to transition already pretty early.
46:11
Now we like a year and a half later or so.
46:13
It's just nuts what's happening.
46:16
So it's it's like really it's I wish people could have a good look in what it's like in the specifically highly AI built companies right now.
46:24
It is absolutely fantastical.
46:26
It's just like in a way that like I could not have predicted and I just like I go from review to review and I'm like just like as just like I'm a I'm a two technologist right like I love computers and I hire people who love computers and I don't think this is any problem like it's just this is perfectly this is what we should be doing.
46:44
I I just as someone who loves computers and loves the power that can be extracted from them and and is just delighted with when someone invents something, I just go from meeting to meeting and like I I'm like I I see the craziest thing I've seen in my life basically once a week.
47:00
It's just absolutely wonderful.
47:02
So you know I don't know is it is it possible to point a companies so directly into a direction um by uh if if if your if your mechanism of management and leadership is speeches or the creation of an annual plan that then you sort of build equity in that then everyone follows.
47:24
I've never had an annual plan.
47:26
Like it's just like it's like we like we we run a function over all the inputs to figure out what's the next step every day, right?
47:33
And it's like it's not just me doing it.
47:37
I I I I teach the function and I want everyone to run this and just do what they see as what here's the next best step.
47:44
And we try to get everyone to move into the same direction but as loosely coupled as possible.
47:51
And so I think this is how you get to high creativity to to innovation and for into a place where people build uh hopefully world-class products, right?
48:01
And so all this to say your your question is um whether situations where I was needed my my hope is not if you read um my uh letter that I wrote when public it's 11 12 years ago now. Yeah.
48:16
included a little letter from Toby um in which was a nice thing that the SEC allowed us to do.
48:22
Um they sort of just came around to a view that it's okay to include a section that is not uh every single claim substantiated.
48:28
It's like it's okay that it comes from something you know it's very very new.
48:31
So I I use the opportunity to write something and in it I I write a couple of things which are similar to what I'm just saying and um specifically it says I would like Shopify to be a company that sees the next uh like the the next century.
48:43
Um, and that's my vision.
48:45
I want a company that's like doesn't need me, but like while I'm here, I'm trying to also try to be the um biggest asset to the to to to the firm.
48:55
And I think I I I I hope I'm doing this reasonably well.
48:59
>> What was Shopify's market cap when you went public?
49:01
It was sub 10 billion, right?
49:03
>> It was um one and a half, I think. >> Was sub okay sub two.
49:05
So, I think you're doing okay.
49:07
The that memo though, I want to come back to that.
49:09
There were two things that people focused on.
49:11
It was the bring you know AI into the performance review aspect. Yeah.
49:18
>> This was in 2025 which I think is also why it was controversial is people didn't >> Exactly.
49:22
>> And then there was um you know basically you have to ask the AI question before you add headcount you know can I do this with AI instead.
49:29
Are those two things still um happening inside Shopify?
49:32
Are those still the rules?
49:36
>> Yeah I think they are happening entirely um uh organically.
49:38
Yeah, I think this is like I think this is like I I don't have to enforce these kind of things.
49:42
I mean the performance review I think we went through a few I'm actually don't know if it's in a current one.
49:48
There was like a question about like this is a peer rating kind of thing.
49:53
It's like how reflexively does so and so show up the like like a prototype from AI or something.
50:00
It was, you know, sometimes you play a little bit of tricks there.
50:04
Like it's like this was in a performance review questionnaire, but of course it didn't matter like what the answer was.
50:08
But like the funny thing is just the fact that it's in there means like like it's you know um sometimes you can uh just sort of give a company a reputation to live up to and it than it uh um you know it does.
50:21
And so um there's very big AI skeptics or like even people like there's many many open source projects that have now banned AI contributions, right?
50:31
Like which is I to me is like the source of endless entertainment that people somehow have um a morality um conversations about whether or not the code got uh hand chiseled by humans or somehow computed by math.
50:48
somehow computed by math. It's like it's cold like it is good accept it right like it seems pretty simple as a um position to take but like apparently that is uh you know what do I know anyway this is a situation we have it is like I I think I I said earlier like
51:04
there needs to be diversity in companies um diversity means you um uh like you have distinction like the diversity means the opposite of uh um books for everyone um books for everyone means no one minds it means a milk toasty kind of you know, average of everyone's favorite color is brown, right? So, which no one So, which no one likes.
51:23
Um, and so, um, what you want is um, a place that like has a very specific decisions of like who it's for and who it's not.
51:32
So, heightening the misalignment with the people you don't want is actually almost more important than having a good careers page, right?
51:40
So, I think that's also good.
51:40
Like it's like if someone is like an AI skeptic and is just kind of trying to lay low, they are never going to be like a top performer in a company where everyone around them is just using like a data center of agents to accomplish their tasks, right?
51:54
Like this is just not going to happen.
51:55
Um and so just like make it explicit because I think everyone deserves to work in a place where they uh have uh where they either are or have a really good shot at becoming one of the top performers.
52:06
Um and so once we know this is no longer a possibility space, we also want to make help you get back to industry to look for such a place for yourself. Right?
52:17
So >> there's this um consensus forming uh right now with these personal agents that the business model that will support all these is some kind of take rate business.
52:28
Mark has talked about it with me for Muse.
52:30
Noah's talked about it I think for Instinct and I hear it with founders all the time I'm meeting with of these there's it's a it's a absolute Cambrian explosion of Asian startups right now. Yes.
52:41
>> And they all seem to think they're going to get a slight cut of transactions that flow through their platform and that's going to be how these businesses get built. >> Yes.
52:49
>> As someone who is running um one of these take rate businesses at scale uh for many years now, do you think that's actually the model?
52:56
Because I'm trying to figure out, okay, where does this where does this take rate come from? >> Yeah.
53:01
>> Like will Shopify I think you you take roughly 3%.
53:04
Will Shopify give >> Well, most of that goes to the credit card companies, >> right? >> Right.
53:09
You have you have to share that margin.
53:11
Uh so it's not a lot to fight over uh or to give.
53:13
And so is there a world where Shopify shares some of its margin with these agents because it creates more GMV that flows through Shopify or do you increase your margin because Shopify is becoming more valuable in an agent world?
53:28
Like >> how do you think this is going to net out?
53:32
Because I'm like where's the money?
53:33
>> I'm actually really fatalistic about these kind of things.
53:34
Like I I I honestly just find that and I think this is the right position to take for for for the agent startups.
53:39
um you know assuming they can get the financing.
53:43
It's just like the these agents are tre of tremendous value.
53:47
Like it's like like once you have this set up um the money you would have to pay someone to um for them to uh agree that they can never use their muse again is like like increasing by the day, right?
54:00
Like it's like so on like bas of the reverse money test.
54:02
Um >> then maybe the model is just charge the user.
54:07
I think it just depends on how much uh value you can provide, how much um how many unique things can you do or like how much were you in the right place at the right time?
54:17
How much did you have with onboarding?
54:19
I think I think there's and and frankly what is that 2% of American households pay for AI right now? Yeah, it's very low.
54:25
It's like >> it's um we're so early here and um you know I I think there's this uh there's plenty documented.
54:33
Marcus uh since we talked about him has uh in many cases built enormously impressive um businesses by just saying hey we are going to start thinking about making money when we have like 100 million users or billion users or something.
54:48
I mean of course you need to you need to be able to stay um uh liquid throughout this uh period which is um you know another thing but like I'm just going to >> well this previous era of startups didn't have the compute costs that these ones do. That's that's very true.
55:03
Although, you know, and and frankly, the analogy is to do where everyone had to go to Larry Edison and give him a million dollars to just be able to receive a database.
55:10
So, like it's that didn't go so well.
55:12
Um um so it's um look, I I I the last time I was a startup founder was 22 years ago, right? Maybe 20 years ago.
55:21
>> Come on, you're still a startup founder.
55:22
>> So, like I mean, I feel like one, but like uh I I um um I'm sort of um almost in the video game version.
55:28
in the video game version. uh the the sort of um uh fantastical uh um version of a startup founder like I have a company that feels like a startup that is u I think as nimble as a startup um I think that's as fun as a startup it's in
55:43
fact um remembering startup days they often not so fun because like I you know back in those days I had to ask my father-in-law who we were living with uh for a check to meet meet payroll that wasn't so fun um so uh I I you know Shopify is doing very very well. So I
55:58
So I don't have to think about these things anymore and um so that's wonderful.
56:02
Um I don't know what it's like to actually has to go fundraising.
56:06
I'm certainly just as surprised at some of these fundraising rounds that that I'm hearing about as others.
56:12
Um and um I I I added a job as a venture capitalist about two months ago and it's unbelievable the valuations.
56:19
Um and and there's a sense of just throw the money in the pot and go go.
56:24
It kind of reminds me of like maybe Uber like just capital as a weapon.
56:28
But the capital this time it's all going to GPUs. >> Mhm.
56:32
>> And and >> it's going to be Jensen. >> Yeah.
56:34
It's all going to Jensen.
56:34
And that's why I ask about the take rate thing cuz like what is going to actually sustain all this? >> Yeah.
56:40
>> And I I don't Everyone seems to think their agents are going to be just taking 2% of transactions, but I'm like who gives that?
56:48
>> You're not going to get 2%.
56:48
Like I mean welcome to the world of uh basis points.
56:53
Um like people come in with like I I I I am in conversations sometimes where um uh people don't have all of their prior fully arrayed yet for for for some of these things.
57:04
Um but like it's again they the agents are providing a ton of value and I think people will also pay for it.
57:12
I mean I'm certainly a extremely like professionally at with Shopify and in uh privately um I um are very large consumers of AI tokens and um I'm very happy to pay money money money for them.
57:26
My situation again is a little bit of diff different here and these things are very expensive and I you know I have the resources to do this and um uh this will all get cheaper and um um uh you know we'll address different spending classes at the same or better level of
57:43
intelligence um um very quickly and so I think um I don't know I I honestly this is one of those areas where I I'm just honestly like unconcerned like there's going to be so much exchange of uh value here that um when there's significant exchange of value, there's there's opportunities to monetize. Um and maybe
58:01
Um and maybe it's going to go the way of like electricity metering um in the background or maybe it's going to be in a way of um the transaction flows um uh like maybe it's going to do all of those things.
58:14
Frankly, just optimizing people's lives.
58:16
There's like um people are spending money inefficiently um you know like a don't know like there's a lots of buildings of banks over there and they all are can afford a lot of these buildings because people are probably paying more in fees than they probably ought to.
58:33
So like and those are easily things that can be discovered um um by um uh anyone who has access to your email synthetic or not right like and so you know who knows where things are going.
58:44
I think there's uh the world is not as uh optimized as people think and a agents can help people save money and I think that's uh the kind of position that I think will always be of value to people >> with the tools you have with Sidekick and Canvas and the ability that Shopify now has to abstract away the complexity for the merchant.
59:03
Do you think Shopify eventually can command a higher percentage of all this because you're you're taking more and more off your users's plate? Do you think about that?
59:13
Yeah, I I would I would prefer a lower percentage and more, right?
59:15
Like I just like I I I care I don't care about percentages.
59:20
I don't care about um uh gross profit.
59:22
I care about gross profit dollar growth.
59:24
Um and that's a very very different um like I can get to gross profit dollar growth by making Shopify cheaper and uh just having like like like having a larger wave of entrepreneurship be uh um >> Explain why.
59:39
explain why that's the thing you you focus on.
59:42
>> Because that's the mission.
59:42
It's like it's it's like I I mean that that might sound not terribly uh uh uh like I'm performing my fidiciary duty here, but like I I just find that um again I think and again maybe this is also one of those founder things.
59:57
It's usually companies are like the companies that become quite big are started with a mission and often transition to more a custodianship over the point that has been reached uh when they are transitioning to um a professional manager afterwards um with some notable exceptions um at companies that reinvented themselves.
1:00:18
Um, Shopify wants just to wants to see their entrepreneurship to be a more common and easier attainable thing for for for more people like the diffusion of entrepreneurship um, deeper into the economy.
1:00:32
Um, like deep deeper as a as a as a plan more as a plan A rather than a plan B for your career.
1:00:37
Number one time stamp for business creation on Shopify is the local time zones lunch break. It really is. It's crazy.
1:00:45
It's like I love that stat because it mean it tells you how businesses are created.
1:00:50
Maybe after a bad meeting, maybe after hearing that someone's losing a job or maybe after a friend of you is leaving or maybe you know just uh maybe as some some form of dissatisfaction, you use your lunch break to sign up for Shopify because you're going to try the plan B that you've always been thinking about about for for your career and then you build something.
1:01:08
You probably learn something um uh in the process.
1:01:11
Maybe you catch lightning in a bottle and the thing that you wanted to build is something that other people deem of worthy, place orders and um you're gaining you you reach for independence finds purchase and you end up um building a business hopefully a large one in the future, but like it doesn't have to be larger.
1:01:28
It can be just exactly the thing that you wanted to to to to have.
1:01:31
And so that's what we love.
1:01:35
Um and um so we want to see that a lot and um more and more people are learning about Javan's paradox throughout the wonders of AI.
1:01:45
It's like um when things become cheaper they um uh people will consume more and they'll use them more.
1:01:50
Um I do I often wonder if um this is an impediment for Shopify.
1:01:55
I mean, Shopify is like really really affordable cuz like basically most most people who use it in their first month probably spend more time more money on uh Starbucks than on Shopify, you know, like so um but it's it's something I think a lot about a lot.
1:02:08
I just want I don't I want there to be basically no impediments um there.
1:02:10
be basically no impediments um there. So we're working with a lot of um in the AI world make it so that AIS can sign you up for Shopify you know much defer the point like like when you again when you use Shopify to gain value then we want
1:02:27
there should be like the beginnings of a um uh exchange of value um which then as you grow becomes fair I suppose but like yeah like Shopify has always been in built in such a way that um uh we have millions of businesses on on them and um they are maybe subsidizing is too big of a word. But like we certainly the reason
1:02:46
But like we certainly the reason why we can build such amazing software for new businesses is because we also have a lot of businesses that are grown to be billion dollar businesses and um um so we can amatize the all of our um uh engineers and uh tokens over you know the large pool of people and we spend a lot of time thinking about how to make the beginning easier even though that's like clearly not the source of most of the revenue.
1:03:14
So again, my company is very much tied to its mission.
1:03:16
Um um and it's pretty through and through and I think that's important.
1:03:22
>> I was going to ask what you think the risks are to Shopify in this agent role and it sounds like it's the impediments you could possibly have to people signing up.
1:03:30
>> Well, I mean like I mean no the risk is much more acute.
1:03:33
It's like um you know someone might build a better Shopify, right?
1:03:37
Like I always think a lot about this.
1:03:39
In fact, I spent beginning of every year trying to figure out how I would build a better Shopify and then spend the rest of the year trying to make it more like that.
1:03:45
So like this is my my entire loop here.
1:03:47
Um myself enforcing the loop so so to speak. Um I don't know.
1:03:52
I I like obviously I have the best vantage point probably a very privileged position here.
1:03:56
But like I I I've I've always found opportunities to go after Shopify.
1:04:00
Um um uh it's it's not it's not perfect.
1:04:05
We fall short of our own standards all the time because we are it's a huge piece of software.
1:04:08
It's a we we have a massive diversity of industries and customers and again this thing needs to work perfectly for someone in signing up in a lunch break while also supporting billion dollars businesses um um that that everyone's heard of.
1:04:25
And um uh you know that's just like when product managers start this company they're like holy It's like this is a this is this is pretty metal.
1:04:36
This is what you what what what we're doing. That wasn't quite clear.
1:04:39
I sort of thought of Shopify as insert 10% of Shopify you know.
1:04:41
So um uh I'm proud of that in a way.
1:04:46
So again, but like that's also means uh we you know have disadvantages because we do have a lot of existing customer base and sometimes that makes it harder for us to to to evolve.
1:04:56
So >> we have to operate at a level that we are as quick as nimble ideally first to every new possible way of um uh creating significant value for kinds of people we want like to serve before two people in a garage plus a data center of agents can get to. And that's fun.
1:05:13
can get to. And that's fun. That's that's fun for you know like I don't know I when I started 2004 we had a similar situation lots of incumbent companies many of them you know back in the day it was tens of billions um not hundreds potentially but like um tens of billions of dollars existed and maybe
1:05:31
one or two hundred I don't know um we knew we had that number right like it's like it's like like a web was new it's like all client server software like it's just like I don't know very expensive you had to talk to a salesperson and probably go play golf with someone like to to buy a software and like a we know how to do this better. So, um I think that's the
1:05:51
So, um I think that's the attitude that almost everyone in AI is taking now is like um but the thing I want to change is like I don't love calling myself incumbent but clearly I am so I probably should.
1:06:02
Uh um but like this time around we're going to give everyone a run for money. >> How Yeah.
1:06:08
If you if you think maybe I am an incumbent and you have to challenge that constantly, does that mean you need to self-inflict pain to make sure that's not the case?
1:06:17
You have to be willing to I mean I think Apple's probably one of the most famous examples of this the way Steve talk about it.
1:06:23
>> Got a knife your own baby sometimes.
1:06:25
Like yes, it's it's terrible to have to do this, but yes, a sunk cost fallacy kills everyone.
1:06:29
And uh >> again, you what you have to do is you have to figure out what does the perfect version of Shopify look like?
1:06:34
If I start right now and had a magical wand that would build all software in a nancond.
1:06:40
Um, and then you have to change like you you have to look at probably got to get stiff drink and uh sit down and then run the diff between the thing that you just like magically created in your head and the thing that you have and if the gaps wherever the gaps are that's that's your >> I'm not trying to glaze you but it I honestly don't know if there would be anything different with Shopify right now.
1:07:01
you have probably one of the most >> just wait at the things you're launching.
1:07:05
You'll it'll become pretty obvious what what was wrong.
1:07:06
The trick is to be at the solution before other people realize there's there's opportunity.
1:07:14
>> But fundamentally, what you're doing and the way you ride with like entrepreneurship feels structurally enduring.
1:07:22
I would venture to say there's maybe 10 companies in the world that have a mission that can endure like that.
1:07:27
>> Well, and um uh we we are part of a massive inheritance here.
1:07:29
Like I mean people have traded forever like you find like kadaavas in the Alps which happened when I was a teenager like in like the the the you know the quads like the I think misadventure um died somewhere in Alps and had like clearly was a trader with products from like um I think 4,000 no I can't be right 2,000 kilometers uh radius on him.
1:07:54
That was 6,000 years ago.
1:07:57
We've always been traders. We've been traders. We've been merchant.
1:07:58
We've been entrepreneurs.
1:08:00
Um some of the earliest clay tablets are like these three people are are taking these products to that market and so and so is expecting this profit.
1:08:08
These are startups, right?
1:08:08
Like we are we are a species of entrepreneurs, right?
1:08:12
Like it's the most it is extremely um uh core to our existence and um people have traded and uh created products for each other 10,000 years ago.
1:08:22
People will do it in 10,000 years.
1:08:24
It's it's a it's a it's a great bet.
1:08:26
We don't address all of that.
1:08:28
um but like we addressing particular storied part of um you know merchant uh entrepreneurship here which we find is um deeply important to us.
1:08:36
So yeah like I think it's a nice trick to pick as your market the thing that we've been doing for 10,000 years like it's just like so uh worked worked out great for me.
1:08:48
Um coming back to the startups in the space, it sounds like your advice to the Asian startups is to not be too tied up in knots about margin and take rate points and to think more about capturing value and then the opportunities will present themselves. Is that a fair summary? >> Yeah.
1:09:06
And then be so uh important to people that uh you you're deserving of the value, right?
1:09:10
Like you like if you want to build a company that's like successful, you need to build a company that's too good to ignore.
1:09:15
Um, and if you want to have a fantastical career, you need to be uh gain the skills and aptitudes that make you too too good to ignore.
1:09:25
That's the best advice you can possibly have.
1:09:27
possibly have. um even in the sense that um be too good to ignore than competing for the limited resources that people have and um that um >> they will um I don't know stop having the uh extra cup at Starbucks once a month to then be able to afford you like
1:09:48
they should be able to you most people luckily at least when you're building a company in the west you're competing with uh people spending money on coffee right like that's what you're really competing with at least in consumers um in enterp to price everything's different. >> It's so funny. When I was pricing my >> It's so funny.
1:09:59
When I was pricing my newsletter a year ago, when I left my traditional media job, I was thinking about cups of coffee on a monthly basis.
1:10:06
>> You're totally you were already fully on. You're >> exactly right.
1:10:08
>> So, so um you know, just like people like their cup of coffee.
1:10:10
It's it's hard to get I mean we didn't manage here like >> it's like these, you know, these places always are, you know, very curated and everyone's setting it up nicely yet I have my just muck here like which, you know, I'm sure everyone behind the camera right now is upset with.
1:10:25
So, I'll update our stage presence, but like uh you know, it just tells you like cups of coffee are really important to people.
1:10:32
Um if you build something that's better than a cup of coffee, you you you you're going to probably endure.
1:10:39
>> And what is your advice or how should the companies that are wrestling with their aggregators, they have large advertising businesses to come full circle here and they're throwing their walls up to agents or they're figuring out how what do I open up, what do I not, how should they think about it?
1:10:51
The best way to do it is um to uh you know like your advertising system and uh your monthly fee um um those are um all solutions to that um uh you have created at some point in your company's history.
1:11:09
Um but the company exists because you're solving a problem and um if you you need to go back to problem solving mode.
1:11:14
If you do that very well, then you will get to a point where um you can implement whatever solutions are again like present themselves for for making money.
1:11:27
You seem to be somewhat pessimistic about advertising. I'm not actually.
1:11:29
I think it's I think it's very strong.
1:11:33
>> I'm not I'm just not I'm not sure how it's going to net out with agents.
1:11:36
>> Yeah, I think um it'll probably shift its shape slightly.
1:11:39
its shape slightly. Um uh but like um um like yes it will definitely evolve and maybe it's not even going to be called advertising but like the fundamental thing is like there needs to be a discovery and growth engine that's um probably run as a market that allows uh
1:11:57
um companies like the ones on Shopify to um >> uh connect with uh their future thousand true fans right like >> Asian impressions >> I think there's so many ways about doing it the problem like the problem people facing with agents and that's this is a
1:12:12
real thing to overcome is that it seems to be that the biggest growth of for agents is I mean it's also implied in the world that people like these things are agents on behalf of me and you right like and so >> advertising is challenging here because
1:12:26
um if it would turn out that your assistant is being paid to make to to choose products you know like if if if I don't know this real real world stuff happens they pocketing the I don't know the air miles or whatever you That's um that's a breach of trust, right? Like
1:12:40
Like and so this is very active conversation we also in and we love to help and we have these conversations about like how how can we make more socially acceptable ways of doing this, right?
1:12:51
Because we are clearly extremely interested in this connection.
1:12:54
Like we um one thing we always fe uh wonder uh and and hope will not happen is that um sort of the changes and the the the emergence of AI and so on is going to cause a lot of um uh head concentration like the all the business goes to the largest businesses which you know you like the world of department stores and um old school merchandising was very much so.
1:13:19
It's like you know you were the biggest uh um consumer package good company in your space.
1:13:26
You had the best shelf space.
1:13:29
Therefore you had all the sales and it's like all so the beautiful thing about the internet and why it's and and and why I also really really am so into uh Shopify is um because it helped with um breaking this and like it it meant much more interesting products could be created.
1:13:46
Not the one that works for everyone, but rather the one that thousand that that garner a thousand true fans.
1:13:51
Once you have a thousand true fans, you you created a product that people love and have or that some people have a capacity to really love, which means you have overcome the largest challenge in product creation, which is indifference.
1:14:04
Um, you can also create something that a lot of people hate.
1:14:06
Um, even that's better than indifference.
1:14:10
Um, or harder to monetize.
1:14:10
Usually you get both hopefully in proportions that you can deal with on social media.
1:14:15
you can deal with on social media. um more products people love is really the goal and um that necessitates that there's a fairly uh liquid market of like being able to bring a new product by a new company that might not be like
1:14:30
the most wellrecoognized company but bring it to an audience that then they can consider to do I want this um and uh you know so this is like um the the thing that has worked so beautifully by especially matters advertising engine which has been the greatest boon to
1:14:48
small businesses of all time I think um and um uh also um Google's although slightly less so but still they good to have both of them and I think this is why we've seen so much formation hopefully we will see much more of this um like in a in a in a funny way advertising
1:15:09
advertising is quite malignant and uh uh in in a lot of ways but it's actually really really beneficial and it also acts as a little bit of a proof of work in a way it's a business that can't put money behind their product hasn't made money. And in in a way, it's actually a
1:15:21
And in in a way, it's actually a fairly good filter that like buying from especially small businesses that can advertise because you're likely buying into something that's growing and that's uh that's that's needed.
1:15:32
And I think this is >> um so so creating continuity there is really really important.
1:15:38
>> Figuring out how that works for agents. >> Yeah.
1:15:39
>> Yeah. and an incredible business opportunity to figure out again launching new forms of advertising or matchmaking markets is all these um especially with the great primitives of blockchains we now have that are much
1:15:54
more mature and yeah so this there's so much opportunity and so I think this is the fun thing like we get to reinvent everything now >> you posted on X recently that you uh swapped your uh your wine seller out for a server rack my my my rack seller. >> Your rack seller. I was And I'm I >> Your rack seller.
1:16:10
I was And I'm I promise I'm not going to make a distillation joke.
1:16:14
Um but I do want to know uh what are you doing with that rack? >> Oh, well, okay.
1:16:21
So, look, um there are layers to this whole thing.
1:16:25
It's like there's a long again, Harley is my uh >> Did you throw one out, too?
1:16:31
>> Uh I I I didn't have enough to fill out the room that we already had.
1:16:33
So, like this is also wasn't technically it wasn't it wasn't very well used and it was sort of central. It's like glass. It's beautiful.
1:16:40
It's right next to a staircase.
1:16:41
I'm like always look at an empty room and I felt the need to like like I I I found at some point like maybe I should just like do this thing Harley does where he goes like to an estate sale or whatever and just buys a lot of wine at one go or whatever.
1:16:54
Like I was like this is so not you.
1:16:56
like and then I'm like I I I sometimes consult my inner 16-year-old when I'm sort of like stuck, you know, just I find that often more interesting than um sort of playing the regret minimization game because that just like usually makes you be fairly conservative.
1:17:11
So what would be awesome to do here?
1:17:13
And like you know I I have a lot of tech and so anyway um he just get got it like you know found someone who was excited about it and I was excited to do a couple days of cable management and a lot of procurement and and and just built something really really cool.
1:17:28
I think I think service again I I'm I love computers.
1:17:30
I it's like this is you will always hear this from me.
1:17:35
Um I think these things are um uh beautiful themselves and uh you can just put them in scenes.
1:17:40
So now I have a Rex seller um as Lulu Christian did and um it has like one of those uh GB300s from from Dell in it.
1:17:49
So it is actually like fully training models and uh my my my I uh being a public company CEO um is um it's a little bit harder for me to experience the uh some of the uh spoils of technology industry with agents and so on if I would have to go out to a lab to send you lots of things I can't send there.
1:18:12
So now I can it can all run local.
1:18:15
So I have my own version of um >> the Toby there. Exactly.
1:18:17
Something to claw that um uh has uh is is completely local and it's remarkable and runs all in my house and I think that's awesome.
1:18:28
>> So is the historical corpus of Shopify in that in that rack seller?
1:18:31
There's uh I you know I I just I'm lucky in that I've been pretty good uh um like I'm I'm sort of an atoms minimalist but I'm um uh uh digital archiving maximalist oddly which is clearly a contradiction but like um now this works really really well.
1:18:49
Um I I just I basically have everything I wrote and lots and lots of logs.
1:18:53
I know what I've done in my computer basically for the last like 15 years.
1:18:57
It's like it's just like I it's it's actually again I just given what I how I spent my last um 20 years or even longer um a lot about me is in the pre-trains.
1:19:08
So like um I think my experience using um agents is actually uh um pretty close to being ideal because they already like they already know about me.
1:19:19
Um like I've played this game actually when I set up this uh new machine that the claw was running on because it uh claw like asks you like okay well and let's introduce ourselves.
1:19:31
I'm so and so right now you can rename me. Who are you?
1:19:33
And it's like guess and and what's the what's the day in the life now with your claw?
1:19:40
life now with your claw? Are you getting I've heard you say before you would you get audio digests in the morning that you work out and listen to and then like are you getting like hourly updates from it like what's the >> it'll it'll run through like a script
1:19:52
driver just to finish that story after said I said a g uh gave it a guess of course the user was Toby on Unix and like it geoloccated to Toronto and it figured it out in like in like it's it's I have a screenshot of it it's actually I was like that's crazy. Um, so it
1:20:08
Um, so it set itself up perfectly like >> what are we going to work on together?
1:20:13
I I love commerce or something it said.
1:20:18
So, um, um, it was ready to go for a job.
1:20:21
Um, so um, you know, my my use case I I'm I I uh really really really am excited about uh the clause.
1:20:27
I think it's probably most compelling product I've ever encountered um, in my life.
1:20:33
Um, it's >> it does so much.
1:20:35
It does a lot of research.
1:20:36
It just it it writes briefing notes that then I either read or not.
1:20:39
Um um but like it's um yeah it runs a script that sort of makes a a collection of all sorts of things including uh my Fitbit data like um and um uh you know obviously has my calendar. It uh has a little app.
1:20:56
It knows my geoloccation.
1:20:58
Like it just like again it's it's it's logging.
1:21:00
every once in a while come up with a completely like um you know all the best ideas in the world are stupid ideas really or at least the best products usually start as a stupid idea.
1:21:10
Um and um like recently I realized um you know I did a lot of uh you know for for my for my hobby I do a lot of health style analysis but then um given that I have always data like I have a heart rate data for you know um for this and um I figured out who my uh most stressful meetings are with. Oh god.
1:21:31
>> It's like it's just a query. No.
1:21:31
It's like so >> Have you told those people? >> Oh yeah. Yeah. Totally.
1:21:34
It's like guess here's the funniest thing I just find out. Guess what?
1:21:38
And then they didn't find think it's nearly as funny.
1:21:41
>> That stresses them out.
1:21:43
>> So anyway, um so it's it just like um I don't know.
1:21:46
You can just like do funny things.
1:21:47
Um >> that is a terrifying thing to hear Toby tell. >> So I don't know.
1:21:51
I I I just think it's all funny.
1:21:53
And um um >> you can ask it how your heart rate was after this. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, exactly.
1:21:58
It's like, you know, who's who's like maybe I send a report card about my heart rate or to my to various podcasts. >> Oh my gosh.
1:22:07
>> Is it Do you feel like you can't live without it now?
1:22:09
>> I can live without it, but it was just like be like I I would be like remember the days when we had this amazing technology like it would would feel like one of the most significant regressions.
1:22:19
This is why I say like I think dystopia that people fear is always just like like 40 years ago like like if you actually would go back there um and realize all the stuff that's missing that you really really appreciate I think this would become more clear.
1:22:31
So which I like to point out when people are saying oh we're going towards a dystopian future.
1:22:36
It's like you know what like let's actually just like not uh like let's let's just like keep this train going because it's been pretty good for us.
1:22:43
Um I it it would it would really really suck to lose it.
1:22:45
Um and um I think you can adjust to anything but I there would be a lot of things I would sacrifice on the altar of uh thought experiments long before my claw.
1:22:59
>> Well Toby, those are my questions. Thank you. >> Been a pleasure. Thank you very much.
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