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[Music] Let me [Music] [Music] >> You're watching TVPN.

5:00

Today is Thursday, October 23rd, 2025.

5:02

We are live from the TBPN Ultra Dome, >> the temple of technology, the fortress of finance, the capital of capital.

5:12

>> Uh did you see this uh graphic in the Wall Street Journal, the business and finance section talking about the circularity of AI deals and I thought it was just a beautiful image that reflected nature.

5:27

It looks like a conch shell. Looks like a conch.

5:30

>> It looks like a conch, maxi, >> right? It looks fantastic.

5:32

Uh I was I was laughing to myself about uh uh Sacha Nadella just being like, "Yeah, I was into circular deals with OpenAI like six years ago, actually."

5:42

Uh so Larry Ellison, uh you're not Yeah, you're not as cool.

5:48

Like like don't take a victory lap.

5:50

I was doing crazy complicated deals with OpenAI back in 2019.

5:53

Um, but uh, you know, we've talked enough about OpenAI in this show.

5:59

It's quickly turning into the OpenAI show.

6:01

We have someone from OpenAI coming on the show later today actually to talk about the browser. I am excited for that.

6:05

Uh, but we got to go a different direction.

6:08

We got to talk about some other stuff.

6:09

And so I want to talk about how we name companies, how we build brands in Silicon Valley.

6:16

And I want Jordy to take the lead on breaking down his thesis for the uninspired company of Silicon Valley.

6:26

But first, I want to tell you about ramp. com. Time is money. Save both. Easy.

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6:32

Jordy Hayes, you have the floor, sir. Thank you.

6:34

Uh, this is an idea uh or or an essay I've been thinking about for a while.

6:39

Finally got around to writing it and uh yeah, generally uh I felt like the timing was right.

6:45

the browser company's acquisition closed this week. Yep.

6:49

>> Six years ago, they started the company.

6:51

So, I'll just read through uh what I wrote and then we can chat about it.

6:53

So, six years ago, the browser company of New York was born.

6:57

This week, its acquisition by Atlassian closed.

7:02

Regardless of how you feel about the product or the ultimate acquisition price, it's undeniable that Josh Hirs and the team brought an incredibly fresh perspective to what a startup brand could look and feel like.

7:12

>> Six years is kind of crazy.

7:12

I I I I feel like I found out about the browser company like two years ago, maybe three years ago. Uh what a grind.

7:20

Congratulations to the team over there. >> Overnight success. >> Seriously.

7:24

>> Um the name, the brand design, etc.

7:24

were all incredibly thoughtful, but they weren't new.

7:28

Roughly 150 years ago, it was standard practice to name a company like they did.

7:32

The Credential Insurance Company of America, founded in 18 >> Standard Practice sounds like a good name for a company.

7:37

That sounds like a real name. Yeah.

7:39

>> Standard Oil Company of New York, founded in 1911. That was a spinout.

7:41

Uh, the Edison Electric Illuminating Company of New York, founded in 1880.

7:47

And there was a bunch of others over history.

7:49

Uh, again, this was just like the way that you named a company.

7:53

You weren't trying to think of back then.

7:54

You weren't trying to think of like a cute. com.

7:59

>> No, >> it was why don't we just name it what it is?

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And so what I like >> name it what it is or name it who we are.

8:03

Goldman Sachs, Morgan Stanley.

8:03

So, what was what was amazing about this naming convention, this isn't in the essay, is just like how explicitly clear it is what the company does.

8:11

The Edison Electric Illuminating Company of New York. >> Yep.

8:16

>> I can imagine what they do. It's good marketing. >> Pretty pretty simple.

8:19

>> So, the browser company of New York was a perfect name for a specific reason.

8:22

juxtapos juxtaposing a 150-year-old naming convention with a modern tool such as the web browser was an incredible way to stand out and signal to the world exactly what their mission was and that they would be bringing inspired thinking to the category.

8:33

The browser company's name, brand, and marketing materials were so effective that they catalyzed a wave of companies to adopt the same naming convention.

8:42

Between the browser company's emergence and their eventual exit, I'd estimate that somewhere between 50 to 100 companies adopted this type of legacy naming convention. So >> Mhm.

8:51

>> Mhm. uh naming a web browser company the browser company of New York signaled this sort of original thinking and the problem is that the second third fourth fifth sixth you know etc company to use this sort of convention uh basically does the exact opposite right it signals

9:07

like okay I saw somebody do something cool in my in my industry I'm going to do I'm going to do the cool thing >> the genericization the making that that whole pattern generic like I I I was not tapped in clearly I did not know that The browser company in New York was 6 years old. I found out about it a couple

9:22

I found out about it a couple of years ago.

9:24

And there are people that probably found out about it after they found out about five copycats.

9:29

And so in their mind, they're just like, "Oh, the browser company in New York, that's one of those copycats that like >> quickly it quickly became an anti- signal." >> Totally. Totally. I completely agree.

9:41

>> So personally, I'm not automatically bearish on the companies that are that are kind of like, you know, a little too inspired on this front. Yeah.

9:46

But I think a lot of the people are make are kind of missing what made it great, right?

9:51

And so uh at least one of these companies uh the interaction company of California uh managed to break through the noise and deliver a truly novel consumer AI product experience.

9:59

But ironically they did this under the pokey. com branding.

10:06

>> So Poke came out, they had an incredible launch, very cool, you know, sort of novel consumer AI experience.

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And so my my point here is uh they should probably just abandon that original name and just run with Poke because it's super memorable.

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And and I think >> this is what Instagram did.

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Instagram was bourbon originally. >> Yep.

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>> And then once Instagram hit, they were like, "We have a new brand. We have a cool thing."

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And then of course everyone copied Instagram.

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Interestingly, Instacart copied Instagram's name and it worked. >> Yep.

10:37

So yeah, not always a total anti- signal even if it's uh >> Yeah. >> Yeah.

10:42

So in defense of copycat branding, naming startups really hard.

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Every founder's gone through this.

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There's only so many domain names.

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There's so only so many uh English words that mean something and there's just so many companies being created.

10:54

It's it's quite challenging.

10:56

challenging. uh another defense uh and and kind of like a misinterpretation you know people misinterpret this quote uh that's attributed to Picasso which is good artists steal great uh great artists uh good artists copy great artists steal and so >> Picasso said that originally I know that

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there's a book >> there's there's a variety of people that have like you know said it throughout history stolen you know uh re remitely copied it word from word for his direct rival like another painter >> um so yes t taken literally if somebody just says, "Okay, they're going to see like, okay, this is good. I'm going to

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I'm going to do the good thing >> that someone else is doing."

11:33

>> But a better interpretation of it, and my interpretation of it is that you're you're better off like stealing from the past, but like recombining uh inspiration from a variety of sources to create your own unique style and approach, right?

11:46

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com one live stream 30 plus destinations. Continue, Jordy. Sorry.

11:57

>> Um, so yes, the browser company hit so hard because it was this crazy juxiposition and I don't think anyone had done it before.

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So it got this amazing response, right?

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It felt like fresh and new.

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Um, but after they executed against it so perfectly and so loudly, right, you can debate like, you know, was the product truly a hit?

12:14

You know, that that's up for debate.

12:17

But the brand was >> the brand punched through it.

12:21

>> The brand uh went through.

12:21

So, >> uh, if you just go after if you just sort of like clone to me, it signals that you're in a rush, >> which I think is fair.

12:30

A lot of companies are in a rush.

12:31

You don't value naming, which is concerning.

12:33

I think names matter a lot.

12:35

didn't want to spend the time to find a great domain, which is like fine.

12:38

Again, a lot of founders like don't have a a broker like uh our buddy Rob. It's nagged.

12:44

>> Um >> but uh it also could signal you aren't seeking out inspiration from outside of the tech bubble, which I think is concerning. The world's a big place.

12:51

You should go go outside of of our little bubble.

12:55

And then you didn't seek out influencer advice from people that that understand the value of naming, know how to acquire great domains, because you can go to founders that have been in the game for 10 years, and they will have a domain guy.

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They'll give you like the playbook.

13:08

They might even have a domain name lying around. That's great.

13:10

Or you could talk to a VC and they're like, "Oh, this portfolio company, >> yeah, >> was using this name 10 years ago.

13:15

You should pick it up and use it."

13:17

So, >> you might even have a billboard for you. I've been on adqu. com.

13:20

Out of home advertising made easy and measurable.

13:24

say goodbye to the headaches of home advertising.

13:27

>> Couldn't have said it better myself. Um, yeah.

13:29

And so, so in the in this case like browsers were all modern, right?

13:33

You had Netscape, Edge, Chrome. Yep.

13:36

>> Uh, and so it was juxtaposed, but it was also counterposition, right?

13:39

Um, and of course this this the browser company naming saga, it's not isolated incident.

13:46

I I brought I brought it back to linear linear launch in 2019.

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uh the product design, the website was so good that people were just like uh I'll take one please, one linear brand, please.

13:55

One one linear dashboard, please.

13:58

I even I even talked to a founder uh that that uh like earlier this year and he was like, "Yeah, we're our our design our website and product is going to look exactly like linear."

14:09

I was like, >> that admittedly >> I was like insane, >> dude.

14:13

There's so many I mean it's great but like you know there's probably something better if you just really thought hard and like spent the time to think through like what what could this be?

14:23

Um and so >> uh so anyways I think like copying great design signals that you don't value design in my view. >> Yep.

14:33

>> And so uh what this comes down to is that I believe the tech industry needs to learn how to copy or steal from outside the industry.

14:38

Even today, every AI company wants to be the apple of AI.

14:44

I think you see this in some of the campaigns that that they're doing, which are good campaigns, but sometimes they feel like, okay, you guys went to an ad agency and said, give me one '90s Apple ad, please.

14:55

Give me, you know, give me one 80s Apple ad, please.

14:57

Um, and so I said, it's counterintuitive, but I bet the Apple of AI will probably not build an iconic generational brand by trying to emulate Apple advertisements from the 80s and '90s.

15:08

They'll do it by being themselves or said differently, stealing from the past a variety of sources and a variety of categories to create their own unique style and approach.

15:14

It's perfectly respectable and even fair to take inspiration from obvious sources and industries.

15:20

We at TVPN have been vocal about being inspired by ESPN, Sports Center, Complex, and others.

15:23

But the key is that we took that inspiration and applied it to an area tech that none of those groups had ever played in. Right?

15:31

So we weren't >> we weren't copying Sports Center to build a sports podcast, right?

15:34

Um, so I said if you're starting a company today, I urge you to take inspiration from the outside world and other industries and avoid the trap of becoming an uninspired company.

15:44

So, >> uh, happy to get this out there.

15:46

And, uh, again, I love I truly love, uh, I feel lucky to love the the hunt for a great domain. >> For sure. Yeah.

15:56

I'm I'm I'm thinking about the different like when when when you say uh you know every AI company wants to be the apple of AI that feels like OpenAI and Anthropic's most recent campaigns to me.

16:08

>> Well yeah and even OpenAI's opening campaign >> right >> that that didn't feel that didn't feel Apple to me.

16:15

I don't know like all the pixelated like the dots and stuff that felt a little Apple.

16:19

I don't know that didn't that didn't really that didn't really like like spring out to me like like that.

16:26

Um, but I was I I was just thinking back on like uh like you know like the Deep Mind documentary uh on the Lisa Doll match, the Alph Go series that culminates in Move 37.

16:42

That was part of the brand building.

16:42

And it's odd because typically I think they paid for it themselves like like typically paying for someone to make a documentary about you as opposed to just like waiting for someone to make the documentary about you.

16:57

Uh it looks like it gets a lot of criticism as like oh this is just marketing.

17:02

But at least in that particular documentary, I think a lot of people have watched it and I think it was very effective marketing and I think it actually built Deep Mind's brand as in that moment.

17:12

And I and I feel like if you could turn back the clock, OpenAI would have really benefited from having a paying for a documentary uh on the Dota match that they did or you know some of the other initiatives that they were working on during the Open AI gym, the original reinforcement learning stuff that they were doing.

17:32

Um because the the Alph Go documentary, you've seen it, right, Tyler? >> Yeah. Yeah. Many times. >> Many times.

17:41

>> Well, probably like two or three times. >> Two or three times. Yeah.

17:43

And so like that that's how you >> He didn't just watch. He studied. >> Yeah.

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You sat your ass down and listened.

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Isn't that how you >> Did you Did you smoke a Did you smoke a heater while you watched >> smoke?

17:56

But but uh I I feel like that was like the introduction to Demis and it really like takes you through because it opens with him talking about video games, talking about artificial intelligence and like it felt like it built him up as a character in many ways like more than just him going on podcast.

18:12

>> Yeah, that's probably true.

18:12

It was also my it was my introduction to the game of Go and I've since become a a big Go player. >> You play Go a lot. >> Yeah. Uh a fair amount.

18:19

I mean, none of my friends like no one knows how to play Go, so I always have to teach them. >> Yeah.

18:24

But I've gotten a lot of my friends into Go. >> That's >> But I Yeah.

18:27

I mean, it was definitely the first time like Demis was really like I think a lot of people watch that who are outside of tech. >> Yeah. Yeah. No, that makes sense.

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18:42

Um Dark Cash Patel has dropped an essay uh with a friend of his, and Tyler, you had some analysis on this.

18:51

Did you get a chance to read through his thoughts on the a AGI build out with Romeo Dean? >> Yeah.

18:58

Um so so basically the main point of the article is is um they're trying to address this question that or address this thing that that Sam Alman said which is that um >> they want at some point they want to be doing uh basically a gigawatt in infrastructure per week. >> Yeah.

19:14

>> New uh you know infra.

19:17

>> So it's like okay how do you get there?

19:18

What are the bottlenecks?

19:18

Like how does this actually work out? >> Yep.

19:21

Um so so there's a couple things he points out.

19:24

Um the first thing is there's this idea of like the the fab capex um kind of overhang.

19:32

>> Um so if you compare like Nvidia revenue to the the capex of fabs, you'll see that like the revenue kind of like dwarfs this.

19:40

So, um there's there's like actual specific numbers, but it's something like uh this past year of Nvidia revenue um is is more than the past like three years of TSMC's entire capex. >> Yes.

19:53

And and if you go up the stack, if you're looking at uh like ASML or applied materials, like all of those that are kind of just like a bit kind of lower level than than TSMC, um you see that Nvidia revenue basically accounts for like the past 25 years of R&D and capex of those companies. >> Yeah.

20:10

So basically the point is that um if Nvidia like really wanted to they could uh basically fund like all these new fabs without like you know they they just like uh increase the margins for these companies by by a ton but they could just like spend and just have these fabs like grow massively. >> Yeah.

20:26

So this I mean this doesn't feel like an answer to the question that most people are are asking which is about like the circularity of deals, the buildout of the actual data centers.

20:35

Um I haven't heard a lot of people like nervous about the nature of the fab buildout.

20:43

No one's saying like, "Oh, TSMC is over their skis."

20:45

Like it's it's it's Oracle that people are worried about, right?

20:51

And so, um, the fact that, uh, TSMC is not over building because the, you know, 6 billion in capex turns into 200 billion in revenue, that's feels like, wow, like congrats to TSMC, like they're in a safe place.

21:06

They can basically go to the market, go to OpenAI and all the hyperscalers and say like, "Oh, you guys want to put up a trillion dollars in in spend or revenue? Like, we got you.

21:17

You're not going to put us out of business if if you don't deliver." Which is great for them.

21:21

It just feels like TSMC is in a really strong position. >> Yes. Yeah, that's true.

21:25

But I think Doresh is saying like >> they're underbuilding if we want to be on these like timelines, right? Oh.

21:30

So like like if we want to be doing a gigawatt per week, like how do we actually get there?

21:37

So the needs producing way more.

21:39

>> So >> yeah, this is good because it's basically like what is the shape of the overbuild?

21:43

What is the shape of the buildout?

21:44

And where you don't want to wind up is just like some sort of like fat overbuing like data centers and you're building like these massive data centers, but then you haven't built any nuclear power plants.

21:54

Uh, and then you also haven't built any fabs.

21:56

And so you have like a bunch of data centers with nothing to put in them and nothing to power like >> Yeah.

22:03

And the fabs are really important because chips are something like 60 70% of the actual like capex cost of a data center.

22:09

Like they're just they're so much like compared to power or anything else.

22:14

>> I mean I I wonder I wonder how much they're how much they're rate limiting on the actual buildout.

22:17

Um like it seems like it seems like that that at least some of the narrative has been uh there's there's a much longer lead time for energy infrastructure than there is for TSMC line time scale up fabs but also I haven't actually seen anyone break down like this what it takes to 10x production at TSMC because I don't know where their capacity is are they are they close to max capacity?

22:49

Is TSMC running 24/7 already and they haven't and they don't have any other facilities?

22:56

I I think probably but what do is saying is that like their capex generally is just very small sure >> compared to like what it could be compared to obviously Nvidia is like way higher but like if Nvidia you know makes some deals here like there could be a massive increase in capex then he says well maybe that won't happen with TSMC but maybe uh you know with the Intel deals like this is kind of what is is being is being done. >> Yeah. Yeah. Wow. Interesting.

23:22

Uh so he says further up the supply chain a single year of Nvidia's revenue almost matched the past 25 years of total R&D and capex from the five largest semiconductor equipment companies combined.

23:36

So you take ASML, Applied Materials, Tokyo Electron, SKH Highix, Micron, uh, TSMC.

23:42

You add all of those together, it only takes like a year or two to actually pay for that just with what Nvidia is actually producing because of because of the margins um, and the actual ROI on the capex.

23:54

Um, the reason we're emphasizing this point is that if you were to naively speculate about what would be the first upstream component to constrain long-term AI capex growth, you wouldn't talk about copper wires or transformers.

24:07

You'd start with the most complicated things that humans have ever made, which are the fabs that make semiconductors.

24:12

So, every time you see someone saying, oh, the, you know, worry about the transformers, uh, and the energy infrastructure, it it is potentially more bottlenecked by the fabs.

24:22

Uh we were stunned to learn that the cost of these the cost to build these fabs pales in comparison to how much people are already willing to pay for AI hardware.

24:33

Uh Nvidia could literally subsidize entire new fab if they wanted to.

24:35

That's interesting that we're not seeing those types of like deals.

24:38

Like I like it says we don't think they will actually directly do this or will they wink wink Intel deal.

24:46

uh but shows how much of a fab capex overhang there is.

24:53

>> For the last two decades, data center construction basically co-opted the power infrastructure left over from USD-industrialization.

24:59

That's where you get like, you know, the the the the Memphis site was like a former washing machine factory or something like that.

25:05

And they had a lot of power because they need a bunch of machines to move all the different washing machine parts in there to build the washing machines.

25:11

Um, but of course that actual business has moved overseas and so Elon was able to go in and say, "Give me that power."

25:17

Uh, Google's first operated data center was across a former aluminum plant.

25:22

Hyperscalers are used to repurposing the power equipment from old steel mills and automotive factories.

25:28

This is honestly a compelling ode to capitalism.

25:30

Let's hear it for compelling ods to capitalism.

25:32

As soon as one sector became more relevant, America was quickly and efficiently able to co-op the previous one's carcass.

25:40

But we are now in a different regime.

25:42

Not only are hyperscalers building new data centers at a much bigger scale than before, they are building them from scratch and competing for the same inputs with each other.

25:52

Not least of all, not least of which is skilled labor.

25:56

>> Ryan says they should rebrand as the semiconductor company of Taiwan.

26:02

>> To their credit, >> still the Taiwan semiconductor manufacturing company. But yeah, flip it.

26:08

flip it for the modern era and just copy the browser company. >> Yeah.

26:12

Um uh well, if you're uh looking to invest in one of these companies, go to public. com.

26:18

Investing for those that take it seriously.

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Multiasset investing trusted by millions.

26:22

Um maybe you're deploying $2 trillion in AI capex a year.

26:27

Someone else needs to producing produ be producing two trillion worth of all other data center components, not just the chips.

26:33

the people upstream of the data centers, the companies producing everything from copper wire to turbines to transformers to switch gear.

26:39

We need to build more factories.

26:39

The problem is that those factories have to be advertised over many a many decade lifespan.

26:46

And at usual margins, those factories are only worth building if this AI AI demand lasts for 10 to 30 years.

26:52

Um there's an interesting so he goes into some of the uh uh the gas turbine manufacturing stuff um and ARR projections.

27:01

The really interesting takeaway is the final chart on AGI timelines.

27:06

Uh the distribution where is this electricity? Here we go.

27:09

So uh not only does China generate more than twice the electricity than U than the US, but that generation has been growing more than 10 times faster than in the United States.

27:21

The reason this is significant is that the power buildout can now be directed to new data center sites.

27:26

China state grid could collaborate with Alibaba, Tencent and BU to build capacity where it is most helpful for their AI buildout and avoid the zero sum race in the United States between different hyperscalers to take over capacity that already exists.

27:39

Um >> the China will basically run the experiment of we have worse chips but we have like an incredible amount of energy so efficiency doesn't really matter. >> Yep.

27:51

And so the uh basically his like he sums all this up in this chart which is the probability density like the probability of the US hitting uh hitting AGI over time and the probability of China hitting AGI over time.

28:05

And the conclusion is basically like if AGI is coming soon America's good because we have a head start in the race and but we're running slower.

28:14

China has a slow start but they're running faster.

28:17

And so if AGI comes in 2035, China has a higher probability of it emerging there.

28:24

I guess the question is like how bad is it to be a year behind?

28:29

How bad is it to be, you know, just just 6 months behind in in if AGI emerges?

28:34

If you believe in like the fast takeoff of like once it's there, you know, it's like the immediate win condition, um >> you better be advocating for some American electricity.

28:44

Um, but >> yeah, there was a there was a reference to Tyler Cowan's post from 2023, do not underestimate the elasticity of supply.

28:53

This was in the context of energy.

28:53

So Tyler's post said uh he said, "When I first read about the discovery of a vast new deposit of lithium in a volcanic crater along the Nevada, Oregon border, I can't say that I was surprised, not because I know anything about geology, but because as an economist, I'm a strong believer in the concept of elasticity of supply."

29:11

Now about elasticity of supply in which economists tend to have more faith than do most people.

29:18

Time and again over the centuries economists have have observed that resource shortages are often remedied by discovery, innovation, and conservation.

29:25

All induced by market prices.

29:27

To put it simply, if a resource is scarce, there's an upward pressure on its price.

29:31

New supplies will usually be found.

29:33

So um you can, you know, reference this with the kind of people's energy concerns around uh AI.

29:38

The big question is like where's the energy going to come from through all these new data centers >> um and uh planned capex but uh Tyler Cowan's willing to bet that uh we will discover new sources of energy will figure out how to make more gas turbines.

29:55

There was some reporting.

29:55

I think there's already like an immense amount of pressure on uh >> the Colossus uh data center development in terms of I saw Wired was posting a video.

30:08

I sent it to you yesterday like somebody using this like thermal camera or some type of camera to view how much um uh uh gas was being like let off.

30:15

And it was just like clearly they're just have have all these gas turbines firing.

30:23

That was the there was some good stuff in in in that video, but that was the dumbest part because it was like Elon has been publicly saying like this is the biggest data center with the most energy.

30:35

>> It was framed as a bombshell. >> Yeah, it was framed.

30:37

>> We pointed a camera at it and it's big. It's big.

30:40

It's the big It's bigger than everything else.

30:42

It's like >> framed as a Gotcha.

30:43

But Elon was saying >> Elon is extremely proud of how much energy this thing uses.

30:48

He actually posts the exact energy figures constantly.

30:52

But I did think that uh we have Sager and Jetty from Breaking Points joining the show tomorrow.

30:55

And I think that he lays out a really good case for like what public sentiment is like.

31:03

And you can see in that video there's a politician from Memphis who is like whoa whoa whoa.

31:08

Like if you guys are going to come here and build a massive data center in Memphis like you have to make sure that the water stays clean, that we don't wind up with really polluted skies.

31:17

We don't want to be Beijing.

31:19

We don't want to be, you know, some industrial capacity like we some industrial hub like we've lived through that.

31:26

We've seen like, you know, Detroit was at one point dirty.

31:28

The industry sort of left, but like we we want like a more modern futuristic eco-friendly.

31:33

Uh it's not to be like a total decelerating like tree hugger.

31:39

It's just like let's not give each other cancer people.

31:41

Like there's probably a way around this.

31:43

And so I think uh the the actual discussion is going to get super super heated and I think Sager's correct and we'll unpack this with him more tomorrow.

31:52

Um the discussion will get extremely heated and it will turn into these extreme ends of like you want us you don't want to cure cancer with AI and like you want to kill everyone with you know this uh you know this insane pollution that's coming out of whatever natural gas turbine.

32:12

surprised we haven't seen somebody like protesting on top of a data center yet.

32:17

Yeah, >> you think somebody would have scaled one and >> I also >> people used to do this with with trees, right?

32:22

They would just climb to the top of a tree going to get cut down.

32:26

>> This happened at Anthropic, right?

32:26

But for doom reasons, not for not for environmental reasons.

32:30

And so there's like a very clear alliance that should form, right? >> Happened briefly.

32:36

He got he was hunger striking. He got hungry.

32:37

He was there for a couple days.

32:40

But I mean, no one debates that there are tons of AI doomers that like are actively protesting the lab in one way or another.

32:49

Like I would put Eleaser Udicowski's new book, If We Build It, If they If anyone Builds It, We All Die. That's what it's called. Yeah.

32:56

>> Um I would put that in like the the AI protest cannon.

32:59

Uh, and it would be interesting to see if there's like a team of rivals that emerges with Eleazer and then the just the folks on the ground who are like, "Look, I actually think that AI is slop.

33:12

I don't think it's going to be super intelligent or kill me.

33:15

I just find that my electricity prices went up and I don't like that."

33:21

So, we're on the same team.

33:21

Like strange bed fellows basically where they believe different things but they arrive at the same conclusion so they team up. >> Same cause.

33:27

Um, anyway, if you want to go visit Memphis, book a wander.

33:30

Book a wander with inspiring views, hotel grade amenities, dreamy beds, top tier cleaning, 24/7 concier service.

33:36

You really should, if you're a true technologist, go on a trip to see a data center in person.

33:43

>> They I don't know if they have anything in Memphis, but they have Pigeon Forge, Tennessee. >> Oh, okay.

33:49

>> It's the Wander Smoky Woods and they have Wander Smoky Peaks.

33:53

>> Truly, that's probably like an amazing wand forest.

33:55

It's probably an amazing wonder.

33:58

>> And you can probably see smoke rising from Colossus. >> Colossus.

34:05

>> It would be It would be incredibly >> It would be incredibly >> like wild if Colossus just started burning so much like dirty coal that it was just like this black like smoke rising.

34:19

>> I think uh they won't go that far. >> Yeah. Yeah.

34:21

Just what about just a good oldfashioned woodfired data center?

34:28

Tyler, can we figure out what it would take to have it have you over there?

34:30

I want you to have a little uh we'll build you a chimney in the Ultradome and we'll build you a hearth and you can you can stoke the fire with uh wood and cedar logs and then I want you to capture the heat, turn it into steam, turn the flywheel to generate the electricity to run a fine tune of GPoss.

34:58

Work through exactly how how that would work. Is that possible?

35:00

How much how much how many logs would you need?

35:05

>> A woodfired data center.

35:07

>> A woodfired data center which just like the the you know how good a warm it it's almost fall here. We're cozy maxing.

35:15

We're already in uh brown and green.

35:15

Uh as far as I'm concerned, the holidays are here and nothing would get me more would it would really bring the Christmas spirit forward to have a woodfired data center. >> Yeah.

35:28

Generating tokens the oldfashioned way. >> Exactly.

35:30

just hanging out at the hearth generating some tokens.

35:33

Can you imagine late nights with the fellas just tossing wood in the >> hearth just I'm pretty sure that's like how a steam engine works like I'm pretty I mean there's I guess it was coal not wood but uh if you're on like the the Titanic you you're down in the boiler room and you need to boil water to turn the screen the to spin the turbine.

35:56

Uh you're taking coal and shoveling it into the fire to make heat, to make boil water, and there's no reason we why we can't be doing it here. There's no reason.

36:08

>> Uh we got to we got to go to the chat all of the environmental >> regulations.

36:12

Adam Hoop says, "Wife is going into labor.

36:14

I'm between Jordy and John for my son's name.

36:16

If Jordy or John can't decide, I'm letting Sam Alen spin up a model and name him himself."

36:21

How about How about data center? >> No. data center hoops. >> What about Adam? What about Adam? Adam Adam Jr. >> Adam Junior.

36:32

>> I think Adam's a great name. Adam Jr. We'll call him Junior.

36:33

Or uh have we talked about this?

36:37

>> In all seriousness, Adam, congratulations. Congratulations. Incredible news. And log off. >> Log off. We'll still be here.

36:43

You can catch the recording, but we're we're excited for you and your family.

36:46

I did I did actually talk to someone new uh who uh had a baby and and uh the uh the the new mom and the husband threw on TBNN when they were like in recovery because like oftentimes you're hanging out and you need something to watch and they were like yeah let's let's watch it. >> Why not?

37:06

>> It's going to blow your mind when I tell you who it is too because it's a very funny very funny couple.

37:10

Uh anyway uh yes naming the kid AGI would be funny. Aggie for short.

37:16

Uh that would be that'd be great.

37:19

But >> Tyler is also a strong name for baby boy. >> Yes. Um how about uh 2. 6 million.

37:27

Isn't that somebody in the chat? Yeah. 2. 6M.

37:28

Uh anyway, there was a there was the timeline was in turmoil a little bit yesterday near Cyan and Rune going back and forth.

37:37

Before we dig into that, let me tell you about Adio.

37:38

Adio is the AI native CRM that builds, scales, and grows your company to the next level. Um stick to this CRM.

37:43

maybe stay away from the short form video consumption.

37:45

It would be this would be the argument from uh from Near.

37:50

Uh basically people were going back and forth with Rune.

37:53

Where does Rune stand on Sora?

37:54

Where does Rune stand on slop?

37:56

And so short form video deleted his post.

38:00

>> He did he did >> so I don't know what it said.

38:02

>> He he he committed sepu effectively.

38:02

Uh it's a it's a hor hari on the timeline that we experience.

38:08

uh deleting your post uh is uh it is it is >> sign of honor.

38:16

>> It's a techn Yes, it's a technology brother ritual effectively.

38:18

Uh but uh we we have we have some we have some traces we have some we have some fossils that we can unfa what he said >> so we can get into this comment from near >> he was saying he was saying there's there's sort of a moral panic about uh about short form video.

38:41

I was kind of saying that with him too.

38:44

And I think there was like there was a big like like this all started with like the meta vibes thing where everyone was like this is brain rot.

38:52

This is going to one-shot everyone. Get ready to die.

38:55

This is the worst thing ever.

38:57

And my like I was like yeah it is kind of sloppy.

38:59

yeah it is kind of sloppy. I it is sort of infinite jesty but like there is like the possibility that this is just not popular that like it is possible that like the slop trough just doesn't taste good and people just actually want to do

39:14

something else like like chess >> it was so obvious it was so obvious on day one that that it the the product was kind of cool but it was it may as well have been a play a playlist a video of like cool AI videos >> like people people refuse to believe

39:29

that there is at least a probability that in 50 years people are still watching humans create content like I don't know that there is a probability of that it is possible I think most I think many many people in like traditional media just in not agi pill crazy world would be like yeah

39:47

>> the more people the more people live online the cooler it will be to see a dude like wing suiting because it's like totally >> okay we're we're you know you know 99% of people watching this are just inside on a screen Yeah. >> And this dude is flying, you know, 20 ft

40:00

>> And this dude is flying, you know, 20 ft away from a mountain like >> and so and so is there is there a possibility that that the Meta Vibes app becomes so addictive you can't turn it off and it destroys your life like like maybe I've read the sci-fi I I I would put a probability on it.

40:16

I would say it's a couple percent that that happens that it is bad.

40:19

But there's also just the possibility that people just are like I'm not into it, right?

40:22

Um but people weren't people weren't even no one was saying like hey this might just not work.

40:29

Everyone was like, "Met vibes will kill everyone."

40:31

And and that was kind of the mood on the timeline.

40:32

So So Rune was reacting to that saying uh that uh there's a moral panic about short form video.

40:38

It's not actually that bad.

40:40

Uh he's going back and forth.

40:40

Some people were pressing him on like like don't you think this is bad for kids?

40:44

He was like, "I don't I don't actually know that it's that bad because I watched a couple hours of TV a day as a kid."

40:48

And is short form is watching short form for three hours a day fundamentally different than watching TV for three hours a day?

40:58

Because everyone will say, "Oh, the the real trade-off is like reading James Joyce versus Tik Tok."

41:03

And it's like that was not what was going on in the '90s. >> Yeah.

41:08

And what what does television do, right?

41:09

They're like they they're using hooks, right? Totally.

41:11

An episode of a television show starts and it starts off maybe dramatic and it pulls you in and then right before an ad, >> all of a sudden it'll slam to an ad for fall.

41:21

The world's best generative image, audio, and video models all in one place.

41:24

Develop and fine-tune models with serverless GPUs and on demand clusters. Yes.

41:27

So, we don't have a way to quantify brain rot, right?

41:29

Like, is Barney with ads on it on Nickelodeon?

41:32

I'm I'm getting a lot of things wrong. I don't actually. >> Is that more brainy?

41:38

>> We do have a way twins. >> Yes. Oh, AB test.

41:40

>> We can AB test that one. One. >> I refuse actually. >> Yeah.

41:45

I mean, this this you could I mean it would you would effectively be potentially sacrificing a son for humanity. >> Yes.

41:53

But imagine one son gets 5 hours a day on the iPad from a young age in the Sora app in the Metav Vibes app >> just scrolling.

42:03

>> The other is is gets you know a personalized tutoring from uh you know >> I mean we also have Tyler >> let me volunteer may maybe we can see uh how much Sora have you watched? >> None. I never go on Sora.

42:22

You're you're you're you're purely like if I if I tell if I order you if I if I as your boss I give you the task of generate a video for me then you will do it.

42:32

But you you you truly have not consumed like any.

42:36

>> No not the first day or two. >> What about you Nick?

42:38

Have you consumed any AI video Sora or Meta Vibes?

42:44

>> Not since >> because you were really into it on day one right? >> I was super into it.

42:47

It takes too long to load and then it generates and then says you have violated policies and >> yeah can we hear him at all on the stream? Sorry I can hear him.

42:58

Uh anyway the the what about production team hands up if you've watched more than 10 minutes of AI video in the past week? >> Zero. >> Zero >> Philistines. Uh well um yeah.

43:14

So I mean it will get better. I don't know.

43:18

But anyway, this all concluded with uh Near Cyan and Rune going back and forth.

43:22

Run said, "I like the way Sora looks. I like the content." That was his final.

43:26

He wasn't saying, "I'm not I'm not doing some 3D chess coping on like it's not that bad for you."

43:32

He was just saying like, "I like it.

43:33

I think it's just good content every once in a while. It's fine."

43:35

And so Near says, "Do you actually believe this?

43:39

Like do you realize the product is the API, not the app as containment isn't possible?"

43:45

Um, and that short form video consumption is on the order of several hours per day for US adolescents.

43:50

I didn't comment on the launch, but I'm sure I'm not >> Yeah, this this is what I This is what I was saying like on launch day, which was like if you really wanted to give Sora the chance to become a consumption platform, you wouldn't have made Sora 2 available via API for anybody to generate.

44:13

you would have like at least tried to contain it as much as possible, right?

44:18

people still could have like screen recorded and posted it elsewhere, but it was just very obvious immediately that it that it was like an incredibly innovative like AI creative tool and like probably not going to work as a like new standalone consumption app because >> there's the there's a lot of pe that the TAM for people that will be entertained by AI video is like the entire world in the fullness of time. >> Yep.

44:44

Anybody that's logging onto the internet will probably at least laugh a few times a year from an AI video, right?

44:50

Or they're certainly going to see them.

44:52

But the TAM of people that today only want to watch AI video >> Y >> is like basically zero. >> Yeah.

45:01

I'm trying to imagine the bullcase for the API.

45:04

Like if I'm if I'm a OpenAI customer as a business and I'm and I'm using GPT5 or you know some cash stuff and I'm using some reasoning tokens over here and I'm like a big API buyer and then they come out with Sora and I'm like ah I really would like to use that in my business like I have an actual business use case.

45:29

I'm trying to think of what that would be like I don't I don't really know >> the the business use cases.

45:33

I mean, think about how many platforms are trying to help people generate ads for social ads. Yeah. Right.

45:39

Uh generate, you know, content for various videos they're making. >> Yeah.

45:44

So, if you're like Kenan at Icon, uh, and you're an AI generative ad company or now like an agency and the API is not available for this new tool, you're going to be like bummed out, right? >> Yeah.

45:58

And so it just it just feels like I I mean I agree with all the rationalization about like it's better for the long term strategically to you know create to actually bootstrap a real network, keep everything in the network.

46:10

Um but at the same time it just feels like the OpenAI ethos is just like do everything all the time all at once and that's just like their their their core thesis.

46:19

Um anyway, um >> uh interrupting our timeline, Palmer Lucky has hit the timeline and says, "It says something about society that the most controversial thing I have said in recent history is that I wish I would have married my wife sooner.

46:33

Not that Wales might have have better oral history than humans.

46:37

Not that America should start should restart nuclear testing marrying young."

46:41

So, uh, obviously his comments on TVPN, uh, earlier this week, uh, uh, became somewhat of a current thing on the timeline, uh, and of course people were, you know, taking, uh, taking, you know, one part of his statement completely out of context and and and sort of ignoring the the fullness of of uh, his point, but um, >> but it's certainly certainly been interesting to see the response. It's been very split.

47:11

Yeah, it was it was a true like wedge issue both inside and outside of like the core tech community.

47:17

Like I saw um I saw people who like literally write for like similar outlets on opposite sides of the issue, but I don't think of them as like left or right or pro tech or anti-tech.

47:29

Like there were pro tech people who liked the take or and hated the take.

47:34

And there were anti-tech people that liked the take and and hated the take.

47:37

It was like all over the place.

47:38

It was very very hard to map.

47:38

Uh it was fun watching the conversation get started and I it it it it surprised me.

47:47

>> It started with him calling me a turbbory.

47:49

Hilarious for saying that >> I was just laughing about it. >> I know.

47:52

We were we were laughing we were laughing about that and then and then uh he he he took it even further.

47:57

But >> yeah, I mean it was it was framed in in like let's let's see how far we can push this envelope way.

48:04

But you can clearly understand what the core message is which >> he even said easy for me to say I met my wife when we were teenagers. >> Yes. Yes. Yes.

48:15

>> Now and and and the broader conversation of how having children in your 30s at any point is exhausting.

48:23

Now basically the younger you are potentially the the the >> in some ways it will be easier. >> Yeah. Yeah.

48:30

I was I was trying to think back to like, okay, would I like like let's say that I uh I actually did have kids at, you know, 20 or something like that.

48:41

Um, so I know some people that had kids at 20, like guys that I grew up with in high school.

48:47

Um, and they're they're like, you know, becoming a dad experience is like framed kind of like, oh, it was like an accident or like a, you know, surprise.

48:58

Um, and they all turned out like fine.

49:01

Like it all it didn't it didn't detract at all.

49:02

Um, it just like kind of kind of just turned into like a funny bit of lore about them.

49:09

And it's like, oh yeah, they have like a kid that's like much older than like the rest of their cohort.

49:12

So they are in some ways like, you know, like they don't have a huge support group because all of their other friends have kids later, but in terms of like the mechanics of like what their life is like, it's not that much different.

49:25

Um, and I feel like no matter what when you analyze kids, just the fact that you love them is so it's such a wrench in the system of like, let's analyze this rationally because you wind up just saying, well, like, yeah, they're exhausting.

49:43

They're exhausting at 35.

49:45

They're they'd probably be extremely exhausting at 20.

49:47

Yeah, you'd have more energy, but you'd have less experience. And also, you love them. And so, it's amazing.

49:54

And it would be amazing then, it would be amazing now. >> Yeah.

49:57

My my take has always been the time always comes from somewhere. >> Yeah.

50:00

>> So if you have kids in your early 20s. >> Yeah.

50:04

>> Then by the time >> get ready to knock club. >> Yeah. That that's true. Yeah.

50:09

>> But but uh you know it's going to take up a lot of your time.

50:11

Maybe it'll be massively distracting from your career, right?

50:14

I I think about this all the time. Yep.

50:16

time. Yep. uh you know early you know after after my son was born it was like okay there's now I ended up just completely sacrificing my social life right I there was work time and there was family time and there was like very little in between sometime there there was work time that was a little bit social >> but what is the social life for most people for most >> it's it's their work

50:37

>> no no no it's like a mating ritual >> that's true >> like a lot of the reason why >> people are going out >> people are have a social life is because they're trying to meet someone peacock what the >> they're trying to meet that person and so we've just kind of extended our lives which is incredible and then injected an extra 10 years of like let's find the person and delay the process. Uh

50:59

person and delay the process. Uh >> yeah, and in my view, if if somebody that has kids in their early 20s, well, by the time they're 28 and actually have hopefully like a skill set, their kids are in school and and maybe their kids are a little bit older and they're able

51:14

to potentially they're they're not hitting 30 and then having to go through this crazy experience of having kids and then it's still going to be a distraction from their career, but even then they maybe have >> more responsibility, higher opportunity cost, you know, it's all these different factors. So

51:28

factors. So >> I think other also people were very triggered by the uh the the fact that he specifically said like you know he could if he had said like 19 it would have been different than 16 because 16 is like underage right I I think that people were probably latching on to that that it's like very young or do you

51:44

think it was mostly just like like >> he said it in a provocative way >> yes but uh I I actually don't know about the the history of like you know like when humans had kids like I feel like there was a time in like the castle ages, like the medieval ages when like uh people were having kids at 16. Like Like that's true, right?

52:04

He wasn't like factually incorrect about that. >> Yeah, I'm sure.

52:07

I mean, you should look you should look back through the Kugan family tax, you know, and go back go back a few hundred years.

52:13

And >> open it up and and >> I actually did go back and on my on my Swedish side, there's this there's this like 400year chain where the family just kept using like the same naming convention.

52:28

So they would say like Olafson, son of Olaf, and then it would be like Jacobson Olafson.

52:34

Jacob Olafson, Olaf, Jacobson, Jacob Olafson, Olaf, Jacobson, Jacob Olafson.

52:40

It would just go back and forth because they just kept naming themselves like >> No, my my dad was the fourth in a row of the exact same name. >> Exact same name. Yeah.

52:50

>> I would have been the fifth and my mom was like, "Nah."

52:51

Well, uh, if you have a if you have another son who you give the same name as the the dad, you can use the nickname Trip for Trip.

53:00

Oh, no, no, it would be Skip because you skip the generation.

53:06

>> Is that origin of Skip?

53:08

>> Yes, that's where Skip comes from.

53:08

Uh, and so if you have the same name as your father, you can be called Junior. Uh, everyone knows this.

53:16

Uh, if you have the same name as your father and your grandfather, people can call you Trip because you're the triple.

53:23

And if you have the same name as your grandfather but a different name than your father, you can use the name Skip, which is very fun.

53:33

>> Skip Hayes might be coming up. >> It's a good name. >> Might be coming up.

53:36

>> You might have to do it.

53:36

Um, in other news, there was some news or fake news this morning that the Trump administration is in talks to take equity stakes in quantum computing firms. >> Yeah.

53:49

>> Uh, companies including Ionic, Regetti Computing, and D-Wave Quantum are discussing the government becoming a shareholder as part of agreements to get funding earmarked for promising technology companies according to people familiar with the matter.

54:02

>> And this is and this is so important because like the free market just can't solve this.

54:05

It's not like there's a whole bunch of like multi- trillion dollar companies that are h yeah venture capital >> hyperscalers that are heavily invested here.

54:12

Venture capital firms that are happy to fund promising.

54:16

>> It's not like Google like last week that people were pretty excited about.

54:19

It's not like Microsoft's working.

54:21

>> No, I think the admin did this specifically to torture Scrow because >> this this feels very personal, right?

54:28

>> this this feels very personal, right? So Skrey has very loudly and proudly been shorting uh you know Regetti and and Ionic and and all these companies because uh you know I think the general sense is that uh you know there's a

54:42

spectrum from like science experiments to scams right and people tend to kind of sit somewhere there in terms of their opinion on quantum >> uh Josh Wolf had some uh choice words earlier let me pull it up he said this is beyond stupid, absolute waste of taxpayer money. Quantum is utterly

55:00

Quantum is utterly irrelevant, fraudulent BS.

55:03

Um, so strong words there, but um, do you know the rigetti law?

55:11

>> But before that, Skrey had these these companies had been >> selling off pretty aggressively >> and of course like you get an announcement like this.

55:20

Let's let's look at Regetti and see how they've been doing.

55:23

So, >> oh, Reggav in the chat.

55:25

This is a this is a very interesting take.

55:27

My conspiracy is this was a planted story by someone in the admin to help with exit liquidity in expiring call options.

55:35

>> I think that's that's potentially what >> there's something something odd going on here because >> because there would just be so much blowback from generally smart people about this that are taxpayers that are Americans that are going to say I don't want to be a shareholder in Regetti. >> Yeah.

55:54

And so more and and there was push back and concern about the Intel deal, but at least there was broad consensus that we don't want in we want intel.

56:02

>> Maybe this is a hot take, but like I actually disagree with Josh Wolf that quantum is utterly irrelevant, fraudulent BS.

56:08

I don't think it's fraudulent.

56:10

I I mean I I'm kind of I'm kind of in line with the with the Skrey take that it's it's just like it has a very narrow use case for very specific algorithms that and we don't really know the business application.

56:24

It's not like LLMs where we're just going to be stuffing quantum computing all over the place.

56:31

It's like there might be something that we use it for but we're not exactly sure.

56:35

And so it is very much a science project, but I personally don't believe that that like I won't say all of the quantum computers, but I I I don't believe that they are all fraudulent.

56:47

Like I think a lot of them are saying, "Look, you the shareholder are investing in a science project.

56:51

I'm going to test some things.

56:54

I'm going to run experiments. It might work. It might not."

56:58

And you're like, "I'm 100% down for that risk." Yes. Like take the risk.

57:02

That's what I'm signing up for. Everyone's happy. Everyone's happy.

57:04

even if it goes to zero and u fraud at all.

57:09

>> Google's efforts which are probably the most advanced in the world. >> Yeah.

57:13

>> Sundar is not out there like saying hey you know really Alphabet should be a 10 trillion dollar company because of our quantum efforts like it's a project that they believe has real potential.

57:23

So they're investing >> many billions of dollars into it but it's but it's still even internally like structured as a science project.

57:31

And so yeah, Aquis Glo Global says leave Quantum to the Googles and the Microsofts fund with free cash flow.

57:36

I I think that's one good option, but to be clear, like it's also great if VCs want to take a crack at that and say, "Hey, there's there's this really weird idea in quantum that Google and Microsoft are not going to even take a swing at because it's so bizarre.

57:53

Everyone thinks it's a failure or or, you know, not going to work, such a long shot.

57:57

And so we are going to do it outside of the system."

58:01

it the analogy here would be a quantum startup on that raised like a billion dollars.

58:04

I don't remember I don't remember their name.

58:07

>> Yeah, it does not seem like it's a bare market like capital as a constraint making progress there.

58:11

And so um yeah, hopefully this story uh it's it's it's a sad uh >> sad situation where we have to say say hopefully this story was planted by someone in the admin whose calls were expiring. >> It happens sometimes.

58:27

Well, uh, you know who's not planting stories? Graphite.

58:30

dev because they're reviewing your code in the age of AI.

58:35

Graphite helps teams on GitHub ship higher quality software faster.

58:38

Um, HubSlope Capital says, "I am without speech."

58:42

I like I like that as a funny just like line that you can quote tweet things with. I am without speech.

58:48

>> Brother Buco Capital says, "Can't believe my tax dollars are going to be invested in rioton computing." >> Yeah.

58:54

And the crazy thing is like uh this is uh Jaguar Analytics is this is the kind of stuff that used to happen to repeatedly during.

59:00

com bust and uh and it shows uh like the red like all the different companies that are um >> Joby Archer there.

59:09

Uh and it's not Rietoni, it's Regetti, >> founded by Chad Regetti. And this is the lore. Do you know the lore?

59:18

>> Chad Regetti is married to Susan Fowler.

59:21

Susan Fowler is the uber whistleblower. >> Whoa. bombshell.

59:26

Crazy crazy dinner table talk at that point.

59:30

It's like one's building an a quantum computer.

59:33

The other one is blowing the whistle, writing books at about Uber, working with Mike Isaac on that probably.

59:39

I guess they knew each other.

59:41

Although they did go book for book.

59:42

That's the funny That's the other funny lore is that she wrote the blog post that went viral, right?

59:46

Mike Isaac at the New York Times was doing the He's at the New York Times now.

59:49

I don't know if he was there.

59:50

I think he was there then.

59:52

Uh Mike Mike Isaac was doing like the beat reporting on the playbyplay of all the chaos inside Uber as Travis was getting ousted.

59:58

Uh and then they both came to market with books and they went headtohead and I I don't know who sold more copies but uh it's just a funny thing of like you know when you blow the whistle you got to get that book deal you got to do you got to turn it into a a a 50 episode Apple TV original series.

1:00:16

That's the You got to turn it into, you know what you got to turn it into?

1:00:19

You got to turn it into a one piece anime. Thousand episodes.

1:00:23

None of this like, oh, Theronos was a crazy story.

1:00:25

Let's turn it into an eight episode series.

1:00:30

No, I want a thousand animated episodes of the story of Elizabeth Holmes as she goes on adventures and and and then just continues forever. That would be good.

1:00:39

Um, >> uh, speaking of Elizabeth Holmes, yes, uh, she's probably pretty excited about seeing CZ, uh, >> pardoned. The pardons are flowing.

1:00:50

>> Chong Pong Jiao, >> yes.

1:00:53

>> Uh, Canadian businessman and former CEO of Binance, >> uh, pardoned by the Trump administration.

1:00:58

So, >> uh, you know, I'm sure she's thinking, >> I'm up next. I'm up next.

1:01:04

We'll see if it Although there is a rumor she might be getting out earlier, not because of like anything special necessarily, but just the way the like when you Google it, it's calculated one way basically like the the the autocomplete is just like when did she go to jail plus the maximum sentence and it adds up.

1:01:26

But like >> there's like a best behavior.

1:01:28

It's it's it's like best behavior plus time served while you were under investigation and stuff.

1:01:35

And so you can count old times because it's like you were in prison while you were, you know, going through the court case. So we count that.

1:01:41

And so, uh, I think that if things go well, she could be out in the next like three to four years maybe.

1:01:50

Um, but yeah, uh, pardon certainly seems interesting.

1:01:54

Um, and I think that's probably why we're seeing some posting.

1:02:00

>> Seems you're not you're not you're not recommending the admin pardon.

1:02:06

>> I haven't seen anything that that would lead me to recommend a pardon.

1:02:09

Um, at the same time, I haven't I haven't seen a ton of like I think I I like I'm not exactly sure who got who got the most burned.

1:02:20

like there were definitely people that got like bad test results and that's and that's obviously like seriously harmful but um most of the VCs who who invested like the investors were accredited they took a flyer on a dropout from Stanford like I don't know uh I I I think it's kind of like a you know buyer beware situation with a company like >> Yeah.

1:02:40

But they put devices that didn't work into into use around the country. >> Yeah.

1:02:46

>> Which and so like I don't like the investors took the risk. Yep.

1:02:50

>> They knew the risk that they were taking.

1:02:53

>> Y >> but the nature of fraud was they lied about that. >> Yeah.

1:02:57

And could negatively impact >> It's just so crazy that you were >> Bobby Cosmic. I am not a weeb.

1:03:03

I merely studied the antichrist lectures and so I have never seen an episode of One Piece.

1:03:11

I have watched one piece of anime which is Akira just the movie.

1:03:13

Uh Dee Doss was highlighting some sections from code's AI report.

1:03:21

>> Before you dive into this, let me tell you about profound.

1:03:22

Get your brand mentioned in chatbt.

1:03:25

Reach millions of consumers who are using AI to discover new products and brands.

1:03:28

Uh yes, fascinating set of charts. Shall we pull them up?

1:03:33

>> Uh DD says, "Why we are not in an AI bubble in four charts?"

1:03:37

You gota you got to summarize these and I'll hit the gong.

1:03:41

For every for every positive bull signal out there, >> break it down for me. >> Uh here's why.

1:03:46

Multiples are nowhere near do level. >> We got room to run.

1:03:55

>> And we got we got we got camera.

1:03:55

We got face tracking on the camera. This is a new feature.

1:03:59

Shout out to the production. >> Good news.

1:04:02

>> Capex is growing but funded by cash flow.

1:04:08

Give me something else from the London.

1:04:09

>> Largest techco valuations lower than 1999.

1:04:15

We're still in business, baby.

1:04:15

Where's >> concentration in the market isn't necessarily negative.

1:04:24

>> What about the US government is going to bail out everything from quantum?

1:04:28

>> That's also quite exciting.

1:04:28

Uh Brian Halligan uh over at HubSpot who's coming on the show soon says, "In my honest opinion, private markets are in a bubble are in bubble territory while public markets still seem rational."

1:04:38

I think uh I think that's a good take.

1:04:40

I think a lot of what's holding us back from from, you know, even more craziness is just the overall state of the economy, right?

1:04:50

You have trade wars, tariffs, you have a uh weak labor market, you have an unpredictable admin, you have war in the Middle East, war in in Europe, uh and you have a higher rate environment than we've been used to, right?

1:05:03

And so imagine if we didn't have if we didn't have uh those factors, I think it could be a lot crazier, right?

1:05:11

But there's a lot of there's a lot of real reasons for people to be kind of >> Yeah.

1:05:16

I also wonder if uh >> not not entirely risk on.

1:05:20

>> I wonder how much how much different the like AI is.

1:05:24

There are some new companies, right?

1:05:27

OpenAI, Anthropic, there's a bunch of startups and private markets, but AI is a is like a growth story for the Mag 7, but the Mag Seven are so huge that it's just hard to like you can't like turn it into a meme stock, you know?

1:05:42

And I'm wondering if you go back to.

1:05:44

com like the biggest companies at the time.

1:05:46

Do you know the biggest companies during the do boom?

1:05:50

>> Was it the >> was the oil companies?

1:05:51

The oil companies were the biggest companies by market cap?

1:05:55

>> Oh by Exon Mobile, not by like you know growth.

1:05:58

>> No, no, no, not by growth at all.

1:05:58

So what I'm saying is like is like you have this like you know like you have this cruise ship that's like the anchor of the economy and it's like the big companies and at that time it wasn't big tech it was big oil and big oil was like something that would be really hard to push and the.

1:06:14

com narrative like didn't push it at all but now we have the the the big tech folks who are also like a big cruise ship and but they're so big that like it's hard for them to just like oh yeah like the Mag 7 triple this month.

1:06:30

Like that would be a really really crazy move.

1:06:32

It would take trillions of dollars of investment to actually drive that in the market. So I don't know. Um bunch of bull cases.

1:06:40

Tyler, >> I I think Okay.

1:06:40

So So I um I calculated how many >> how how big of a hearth I would need to tune. >> Yes.

1:06:47

Um, so okay, so if I'm using GPT OSS 120 billion parameters and then I have like eight 8100s, >> um, you can probably get a a decent fine tune within like an hour.

1:07:00

>> So that's going to be something around like 8 8.

1:07:01

5 uh kilowatt >> kilowatt hours.

1:07:06

>> Um, and then if you're if you're looking at dry uh wooden logs about 2 kilograms each, yep, >> you probably need uh something like four to five logs. >> Okay.

1:07:15

to to to for that energy.

1:07:18

>> Wait, five logs of and that's all you need to do this fine tune. >> It's just one hour.

1:07:21

Yeah, I I was actually surprised. >> That's insane.

1:07:23

I was expecting you to say I'm going to need a massive thing. >> It's just one hour.

1:07:27

I mean, it's not that crazy. >> That's crazy.

1:07:30

>> But >> you could really fine-tune GPOSS in 1 hour.

1:07:33

>> I mean, the model's pretty small. >> Okay.

1:07:35

>> How would you would you need like a server rack or could you actually like build a computer could house eight H100s? Is that possible?

1:07:43

or do you need like a proper server rack?

1:07:46

>> Uh yeah, I mean eight is pretty big.

1:07:46

You I don't think you can just fit that in like a normal PC setup. >> Yeah.

1:07:51

>> Um but even then it's still not that big.

1:07:53

Like a lot of people have that at their house.

1:07:55

>> There's definitely the trappings of an of a banger YouTube video here.

1:07:56

You know, like those primitive like videos where like I built a thing from scratch.

1:08:02

I built a toaster with no modern technology.

1:08:04

Have you ever seen those videos or anything? They're great.

1:08:06

Uh and and I I would imagine I fine-tuned an AI model using logs.

1:08:10

It would be a ripper for sure.

1:08:13

Um, anyway, >> in other news, uh, Charles Gaspirino says, "Scoop, >> scoop alert.

1:08:21

People inside Paramount Sky Dance say David Ellison, advised by his father, uh, Larry Ellison, are reluctant to pay more than $25 a share for Warner Brothers as the buyout drama continues.

1:08:33

His last offer, the third rejection from David Zazzlov, was $23. 50 to be exact.

1:08:40

company still weighing a public aka hostile offer for Warner Brothers which they will argue cannot be sold to other players who are interested including Comcast because of regulatory roadblocks. Uh full story coming.

1:08:50

So uh Warner Brothers is currently sitting at uh believe $21 a share. Yeah, $21. 34.

1:09:00

So David Zazlov is uh holding out.

1:09:05

Did you know Andrew Ross Horin got a genuine scoop about this deal while being on TV for three hours a day and promoting the book 1929 and being on one of the most aggressive book tours I've seen recently. Is that the goat noise? >> Yeah, that's my goat.

1:09:22

>> I didn't real I never put it together that that was Okay, I get it now.

1:09:24

Wow, that took me way too long. >> That's crazy.

1:09:28

>> I just thought it was like you like farm animals. >> No.

1:09:31

>> Okay, >> that's it's the goat.

1:09:31

Yeah, that's why I play I played it for Jeff yesterday when he joined the show. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, that makes sense.

1:09:36

I I like I like the goat noise.

1:09:38

We're building out the full farm farm analogy. We need the farm map. >> Yeah.

1:09:43

We're working on getting live animals, of course.

1:09:44

So, we'll go to the goat dam.

1:09:48

>> The goat will make >> truthfully like I I don't I don't feel like I have a good understanding of of of what uh uh David Ellison is building.

1:09:57

like I I'm I'm newer to coverage of the media conglomerates because I focus more on the mag seven, more on the tech companies, more on the AI stuff.

1:10:04

Uh it's a fascinating >> I think I think he's running the experiment of like just you know basically going to the world and saying one one media industry please.

1:10:16

>> Basically it feels like he's trying to build some sort of new conglomerate.

1:10:18

Um I don't I don't know how the synergies pencil out.

1:10:24

I don't know how everything works.

1:10:25

We got to get Barry Weiss on the show about her first couple weeks over at CBS.

1:10:30

>> Um, we also have to tell you about Turbopuffer serverless vector and full text search build from first principles on object storage.

1:10:36

Fast, 10x cheaper, and extremely scalable.

1:10:40

>> Uh, Philip Johnston is on a tear.

1:10:40

He says, "I'm super excited to announce StarCloud's partnership with Crusoe, builder of OpenAI's massive Stargate data center to enable enabling the first public cloud in space next year.

1:10:51

This is the first step in a partnership that will see StarCloud providing energy for much larger Cruso data centers over the coming years.

1:10:59

Um there was also a post from Delion.

1:11:03

He was firing shots at uh at Nvidia because they announced AI ship building partnership with Seronic.

1:11:10

He said Nvidia has announced AI data centers in space and an AI ship building partnership in the last two days.

1:11:16

Words and physics just don't mean anything anymore.

1:11:20

Dear God, this has to be the top please. When will it end?

1:11:25

>> He said that in the post.

1:11:27

>> I kind of assumed he was like, you know, top pled, but that was that was a wild place to go.

1:11:32

Yeah, we were kind of uh we were kind of dunking on this yesterday. Um I don't know.

1:11:37

It it it seems like there's a lot of pieces that have come together for this something to be for this to be real.

1:11:44

Yeah, I you know Delian from my understanding will always do a deal that he's extremely excited about, but it's notable that he was very active earlier this year and he's sort of hasn't announced a new investment in the last uh little bit.

1:11:57

So >> yeah, I mean I think um some of this is fodder for the public markets, marketing campaigns, just general outlines of you know remaining futuristic like there is a world where if you're Nvidia and you're looking at Andre Carpathy saying like hey the current thing is going to be slow uh you're like well then let's what are we going to do in the next decade while we're waiting around for ASI maybe we put some data centers in space.

1:12:27

Maybe we build some ships.

1:12:29

Maybe we do a bunch of stuff. More more SAS.

1:12:30

That's what I want to see. Take some real shots.

1:12:34

>> Mac Rumors is reporting that there's virtually no demand for the iPhone Air.

1:12:40

And uh I thought it was notable.

1:12:40

I have a friend who used to work at Apple.

1:12:42

Uh he uh bought the iPhone Air, used it for I think like 24 48 hours and returned it.

1:12:50

He just said it was >> not the the um the thinness of the phone was not worth the >> uh the battery uh tradeoffs.

1:12:56

And he also said that um the phone is so actively trying to conserve energy that it renders things like poorly slowly.

1:13:06

>> That's annoying because I feel like there's a little bit of skill issue with regard to the battery where it's just like just get a car that has a battery charger in it.

1:13:13

I think there's something >> put one at your desk like figure out how to actually um charge it regularly.

1:13:17

Like everyone has some point in their day where they can plug in and like if you just maybe if you just are wild man and have no routine whatsoever, but you're also addicted to sore and Tik Tok, you're going to have a bad time.

1:13:32

But I feel like if you have any sort of like Yeah.

1:13:35

around noon, I'm at my desk and so I just put it down on the charging pad like regularly like you're going to be fine. Yeah. >> Uh but I don't know. Yeah.

1:13:42

There there's also something about phones where I think the the iPhone Air is a bit cheaper, right? >> Sure.

1:13:49

>> Um but something about a phone is is it is so valuable to your life that if you ask somebody >> like if you were selling an iPhone like an iPhone from today to somebody in 2000, >> like how much would somebody pay for that? Would they have paid?

1:14:03

Would would like a high-powered executive pay like a $100,000 a year to have the modern and the iPhone from 2025 and 2000?

1:14:10

Like I think it's I think it's that valuable in terms of what it does for your life.

1:14:15

And so I don't I don't think a lot of people are are making uh at least like the average iPhone customer is saying if I can get slightly more performance out of my phone for an extra couple hundred a month, it's probably a good exchange.

1:14:29

>> I'm just surprised there aren't more people that are, you know, like Tyler were like a couple of iPhones before.

1:14:35

What were you actually on? 13 or something?

1:14:37

>> I was on No, I was on the 11.

1:14:39

>> So I was like six generations behind. Is that six years?

1:14:41

You hadn't gotten a phone in six years?

1:14:44

>> Yeah, I think that sounds right.

1:14:46

>> Have you Was this your first phone ever?

1:14:49

>> No, I was like I was probably like freshman in high school. >> Yeah. >> Okay. Okay.

1:14:53

It's sort of adding up to me, but that's like What was your first phone? >> Um Yeah. Hand me down.

1:15:01

But it was probably like iPhone 4. >> iPhone 4. >> Started on an iPhone. >> Wow. >> Well, no.

1:15:07

I think the first silver spoon alert. >> No, no, no.

1:15:09

Wait, so you don't remember where you were when Steve Jobs introduced the iPhone?

1:15:14

>> I w I was I even born? Yeah.

1:15:14

Yeah, I was like two, right? >> Yeah. >> Brutal.

1:15:19

Uh Tyler, are you excited that The Sopranos creator David Chase is developing a new limited series about Project MK Ultra for HBO? >> Do you know MK Ultra?

1:15:30

>> Do you know where you were when Murray Ultra happened?

1:15:33

>> It's like from the 70s.

1:15:33

Oh, you're giving him the tinfoil hat.

1:15:35

This is the first This is the first tinfoil hat.

1:15:37

Oh, the tracking cam is phenomenal. Uh, >> put it on, Tyler. There you go.

1:15:43

>> Why did Why is he wearing the tin? >> You're safe.

1:15:45

You're safe now from MK Ultra, right?

1:15:47

Isn't that Isn't that uh Wouldn't Wouldn't somebody No.

1:15:50

>> I thought MK Ultra was like the LSD. >> It's LSD.

1:15:52

>> Oh, I thought it was I thought it was remote.

1:15:54

I thought this was the remote mind control one. >> No, no, no, no, no.

1:15:58

Exposed for not being >> fake skitso.

1:16:00

Fake skitso doesn't know his conspiracy theories. Uh, no. Ridiculous.

1:16:05

Um uh anyway, KOTU has a bunch of other stuff.

1:16:09

We should uh go deeper into their uh public markets update.

1:16:13

We should just have someone from KOTU on again uh because we have a couple a couple folks on it.

1:16:16

So, uh they said they studied study they set they sat down and hundreds >> and read uh and they studied 10 books.

1:16:26

They went back 400 years, read 10 books and 30 bubbles. >> Why stop?

1:16:30

>> Give it up for reading 10 books.

1:16:32

>> And their conclusion was that it's not a bubble, right?

1:16:34

I think I I think they think it's like 1996, which is awesome. I'm I'm rooting for 96. Let's go.

1:16:39

I also am rooting for the bubble already popped.

1:16:44

It popped last Friday and now we're reinflating.

1:16:46

Um anyway, we we have we have Jacob from Microsoft AI in the TVPN Ultradom. Welcome to the show. Sorry. >> Wow.

1:16:58

Finally, somebody that >> Oh, we got a short guy in the in the studio. How tall are you? >> 67. >> 67. >> I'm 6'8. 67.

1:17:07

Are you getting the 67 thing?

1:17:10

Do you have kids or anything?

1:17:10

You know, this whole thing, the 67 thing. >> Come on. >> Yeah.

1:17:14

>> Got to be in youth culture.

1:17:16

>> I I don't know >> at all. I I found out about it.

1:17:17

I I literally found out about it when the Wall Street Journal published an article.

1:17:23

>> Oh >> And it was like here's the here's the latest trend that's causing problems for teachers and I read it.

1:17:29

>> What What are you guys even talking about? >> You don't know this? Okay.

1:17:31

So dude, so there's this meme where in middle schools if the number six comes next to seven, six, seven, yeah, it started from this meme.

1:17:41

All the kids will go crazy and go six, seven, and then they do this because and and if you trace it back, it goes like seven layers deep into like this.

1:17:51

There was a kid at a basketball game who was saying 67, which was a reference to a basketball player's height >> and then one awful rap song that nobody had listened to before Doot Doot. Yep. >> Dude, dude.

1:18:02

>> And that's a reference to 67th Street in Chicago, uh, which is like a popular area to sing about, basically. >> I'm impressed.

1:18:09

That's all from the article. >> Yeah, loosely.

1:18:12

>> Yeah, Wall Street Journal knows their stuff. Knows their stuff.

1:18:13

Anyway, the Wall Street Journal didn't have uh your backstory, so you have to give it to us directly. Yeah. >> Introduce yourself. >> Absolutely. Uh, yeah, Jacob Andreo.

1:18:21

Uh, I lead product uh and growth over at MAI.

1:18:25

Uh, mostly focus on co-pilot.

1:18:25

Uh before that I was at Snap for like nine years.

1:18:30

Uh 2015 2023 doing the same thing basically.

1:18:34

Uh and then in the middle venture for like a year and a half.

1:18:36

Uh still doing a lot of Greylock. Was that Greylock? That was here in LA. >> Uh no SF in the city.

1:18:41

But I've been based in LA from 2014ish.

1:18:44

Uh and now just spent a lot of time in Redmond and Mountain View.

1:18:48

Uh my my two favorite places on planet Earth. >> It's great. >> Exactly.

1:18:52

Uh co-pilot is not nearly sharp enough.

1:18:58

Like you're gonna need to narrow that down.

1:18:59

That's like a million putting co-pilot and everything.

1:19:03

>> Uh it's a multi- trillion dollar company.

1:19:05

Like uh what are you focused on vertically, horizontally?

1:19:08

How is the organization structured?

1:19:10

Like what are you actually doing on a day-to-day basis?

1:19:14

>> Yeah, I mean it's a super super cool moment for Microsoft right now.

1:19:15

We have uh a bunch of folks that have come together, a bunch of people that have been there.

1:19:19

I run in people all the time.

1:19:21

Microsoft been there for 35 years. It's crazy.

1:19:23

I've never seen anyone do this.

1:19:25

Am I allowed to swear on this show?

1:19:26

>> We don't, but you can. We don't have any sense.

1:19:29

>> But feel free to if you feel like that's if you're fired up.

1:19:33

>> If that's what you want the Microsoft Comm's team to really like take away from this is that you went wild on a show and they maybe shouldn't have green lit it, then yeah, we'll we'll push push the envelope.

1:19:44

Um, no, look, we got together an amazing group of people.

1:19:46

Uh, a ton of people that have already been there forever.

1:19:48

Uh and we're just trying to transform a bunch of the different things that say co-pilot across the company.

1:19:53

So we got a group of folks, they're super talented, working a lot on GitHub co-pilot on the VS Code stuff, uh you know, whether that's competing with cursor, all the other folks kind of in that >> agentic IDE kind of world.

1:20:02

Uh and then me and my team, we spent a lot of time on like the consumer copilot app.

1:20:06

So the thing that's in your pocket, the thing you uh can pull out of your pocket, use voice mode, uh talk back and forth with web retrieval.

1:20:14

And then we introduced a bunch of really cool stuff uh just in the last week.

1:20:17

And is is is consumer copilot is that powered by open AAI models? Are you model agnostic?

1:20:21

Are you training your own models?

1:20:23

Like how are you how are you describing because with some of the foundation labs they have to put a ton of their marketing behind like their model and we were having this discussion about like at some point consumers are going to stop caring about the model.

1:20:37

So how are you thinking about it? >> Yeah 100%. Yeah.

1:20:38

So uh Microsoft AI when we're chipping co-pilot we're just building the best possible product. Uh that's it.

1:20:44

And we're super product focused, super customer obsessed.

1:20:45

And at the end of the day, like whatever's going to give people the best thing in their pocket, like that's the job.

1:20:49

And so for a long time, that was open models.

1:20:53

And thanks to, you know, the amazing partnership that we have with them, we can put all their models directly into the product.

1:20:57

Uh 4 powered the mainline response for us for a really, really long time until GPD5 came out more recently.

1:21:03

GPT5 now is honestly, it's an amazing set of models.

1:21:05

Uh and it's been really, really popular inside the product.

1:21:09

But there are parts of the product where we're already serving other models as well.

1:21:12

So we introduced a couple new modes this week.

1:21:14

One of them is not powered by an OpenAI model.

1:21:15

A few of our own firstparty models just started to drop.

1:21:19

So I think six weeks ago was the first time we privately started running LM arenas on MAI fully endto-end trained models. >> Okay, cool.

1:21:27

Before that, yeah, before that we had no ability really to build our own foundation models from scratch.

1:21:33

And in the last 6 weeks across both language and text uh and image, we've been in either the top five or the top 10 with our own first party models.

1:21:39

And that's like a first for us.

1:21:41

And so it's been super cool.

1:21:43

>> So does that reflect of you that essentially like the foundation model layer is commoditizing?

1:21:46

It's high capex, but it is something that's maybe viable to get near the frontier.

1:21:53

>> Yeah, I think that a piece of it is a little bit that perceived intelligence, you know, when you try these different systems today, even when they're backed by different models, it is a little bit tough to tell, oh, this is way smarter than that.

1:22:04

Like things are kind of getting a little bit closer together.

1:22:07

>> We saw that with uh GPT 4. 5. >> Yeah, totally.

1:22:09

And then we went to five.

1:22:11

A lot of people, even though it was a smarter model, were complaining about like the tone and the personality.

1:22:14

And so we're >> spiky intelligence era.

1:22:18

>> We're no longer in a race where just like smarter is just better every single time.

1:22:20

And so to really start to build an amazing product, it's not good enough to just have a set of models that are marching up intelligence, you have to actually build what people want in the product.

1:22:29

Uh and so an ability to go kind of end to end and be able to actually look at the way people are using the product, have that feedback into like model training, especially post training, and then have that then it allow you to iterate the product.

1:22:39

it creates this like model product user loop that is kind of the main way that you'll probably push the envelope in terms of meeting the user needs.

1:22:46

So that's what we've really been focused on.

1:22:48

>> And when when you think about the user the user of the app, uh are you thinking more business user, proumer, consumer? Yeah, all of the above.

1:22:57

Like there's there's everyone from like like the Xbox Call of Duty kid is a Microsoft customer to like the Fortune 100 company CEO is there's a very different archetypes.

1:23:11

>> Yeah, we long term we have to serve that whole spectrum to start. Uh it's the consumer. Yeah.

1:23:16

Uh and it's the person that is looking for this thing.

1:23:17

You know, they're asking us for advice on health.

1:23:20

They're trying to learn new things with co-pilot.

1:23:22

They're asking for a lot of help making big decisions.

1:23:25

>> Those are the places where we're really playing the most.

1:23:27

And now you can't ship a product from Microsoft without being awesome at productivity.

1:23:30

Uh and so in the last few months, >> huge push in productivity, making way easier to upload like tons of files, reason over them, create documents based on the source material you've uploaded.

1:23:40

And this is just like ripped like the the as soon as we put this in the hands of users completely.

1:23:44

You know, we we kind of expected, okay, if we improve answer quality, generally this is always going to be good.

1:23:49

Improving file upload and improving the number of of files that people could upload. Yeah.

1:23:54

>> Users just were drawn to it so quickly.

1:23:56

So, so I mean it's it feels like the real wheelhouse like you're just going to knock it out of the park with the customers if they're running their life on 365 like they have a they have a Microsoft email they have you know one drive going they like they set up their life in that way maybe because they use it at work maybe it's also hybrid work

1:24:14

home but that's going to be a really great experience for them >> yeah so the product today doesn't actually need to be rooted in M365 at all you can just download it you can just use it and it's actually amazing for that use case longterm the system that is the highest context on you is going to be the best in both sides. It's

1:24:27

It's going to be the one that knows when your meetings are so it can schedule that dinner that you've wanted to.

1:24:32

And so we actually think that the long view here is that these things ultimately have to come together.

1:24:37

But for the next 6 to9 months, we're going to ser focus on nailing the enterprise use case in M365 inside of all the work apps you already do all your work in.

1:24:44

And then at the same time on the other end of the spectrum for consumers, nail the co-pilot app that you just download from the app store and you just love and you use.

1:24:51

How how should startups think about your guys's ambitions?

1:24:55

your guys's ambitions? because I think that uh Sam had a quote it was probably a few years ago at this point maybe a couple years ago which was like don't build a company that's that's assuming models not getting better >> and I've seen so many companies this

1:25:10

year we've had some of them on the show we've talked about them that are basically >> they may as well have said like we're building a different Microsoft Copilot for XYZ or we're building >> we're building Microsoft Excel and Microsoft Copilot for Excel >> as a new company. And it's cool like

1:25:27

And it's cool like these are big categories, right?

1:25:29

They're extremely valuable products.

1:25:31

It's it's worth new teams like trying to take a crack at some of this like timeless software.

1:25:39

>> But I'm curious, you're I'm sure you see some of them and you're like, wait, you know that like we do that already.

1:25:44

>> Yeah, that's on our road map >> and we we have like you know hundreds of millions of people >> as opposed to like Bloomberg has an Excel plugin and they've had one for a long time.

1:25:53

that hasn't been on Excel's road map because it's a separate thing.

1:25:57

But yeah, how are you talking to start?

1:25:58

>> Yeah, look, I think if you get really specialized like the Bloomberg example, like we're never going to change all of Excel to go compete with like a specific vertical of a way people use Excel.

1:26:05

We can't change like the core platform that much.

1:26:09

But if you're trying to build something, and I won't use the Excel example because it's too close to home, I think for people that are working on this problem, but if you built like a plugin for Word that does something that's like pretty horizontal, like it uses Word for you. >> Yep.

1:26:23

we know like this is certainly something we spend a lot of time has >> had templates for years and and if you think about you know prompt to template like that's a very obvious next step.

1:26:32

Uh do you feel like there's a there's a responsibility for the Microsoft brand to send clear messaging to startups so that you don't steamroll them?

1:26:44

I always wonder about that.

1:26:46

Like it feels like Sam was kind of saying like, you know, I'm former YC, you know, head.

1:26:49

I want startups to like me, build on my platform, etc.

1:26:54

And I don't want someone to accidentally get crushed >> by the steamroller. >> Yeah. Yeah.

1:27:01

I think that when you're training foundation models at the scale that they are and have kind of been doing it for as long as they have, I think that the world >> is still adjusting to how quickly things are changing.

1:27:12

And so I think the degree that the like model builders can signpost and be like hey like this is going to change a lot really quickly.

1:27:18

Uh I do think that this is probably just the right thing to do for the ecosystem.

1:27:23

Now >> that being said for us we're just focused on building an amazing product. >> Yeah.

1:27:28

And the other thing is some startups are overtly saying I'm going to kill if they're coming for you.

1:27:33

It's not like you like gloves coming out.

1:27:37

>> Maybe don't do that because we're doing that.

1:27:38

It's like no they're trying to eat your lunch.

1:27:40

It's totally fair to just keep expanding your product in ways that you know are valuable for the majority of users.

1:27:46

>> But the aentic stuff happening in Excel as a specific example is really cool.

1:27:51

And so it's one of those areas where it's like >> totally >> look focus you can win a lot of things by being focused.

1:27:55

So who knows maybe the people doing that are still going to have an amazing product and build a great business >> but Excel is going to get pretty agent.

1:28:02

>> Do you have anything to show us today? >> 100%.

1:28:04

>> Let's take a lot of cool stuff. >> Yeah. Yeah. Show us some stuff.

1:28:05

Well, so just quickly the stuff >> your camera here so we can see your phone screen if you want to pull it off. >> Yeah.

1:28:11

So the stuff that we talked about uh gosh just a little bit this morning.

1:28:15

Um we have a huge release of AI browser.

1:28:18

Uh and so I think we heard a lot about AI browsers this week.

1:28:20

Uh and the biggest difference is Edge has you know hundreds of millions of people using it and now every single one of them with a flip of a switch now has an agentic uh browser in the form of co-pilot mode. >> Sure.

1:28:32

>> I've using it to reorder stuff on Amazon uh kickoff stuff for me. It's been awesome.

1:28:35

Uh we also uh >> get get into uh yeah get get into maybe a little bit more there just just while we're talking about it.

1:28:43

But this is like you can chat with the pages that you're on and more content.

1:28:48

>> So sidebar is totally there uh and you can reason over multi-tab context and you can talk about the different stuff that you're doing.

1:28:53

The the thing beyond like actions like we've seen a bunch of people talk about whether it was like comet or the Atlas stuff from earlier this week.

1:28:59

um you know actions are just going to get better and better as the models improve and you know cop mode and edge is you know state-of-the-art with respect to the actions that you can do.

1:29:06

Uh the one of the really cool differences is once you enable it it'll actually start to pick up like patterns and habits of your browsing and it'll actually create these journeys uh and do things proactively for you and you can jump back in where you left off.

1:29:18

And so if you're like planning a trip and doing flights in a few tabs and doing hotels and other tabs and trying to figure out stuff to go do, Edge will actually see what's going on with that and the next time you come into the browser, it'll actually have taken the next step in planning that trip for you.

1:29:30

And with a single tap, you just jump straight back into Flow where it's actually done the next thing.

1:29:35

And so for me, when I'm like interviewing candidates and just doing a bunch of research and tabs is perfect for this.

1:29:40

>> How how do you uh there was some conversation concern about prompt injection.

1:29:44

Is that like how do you think about like solving that problem?

1:29:46

It felt like it was people were saying like, "Hey, this is a big risk like slow down."

1:29:52

But it felt like something that was somewhat solvable like pretty quickly.

1:29:56

>> I I think that's right.

1:29:56

And I think that you have to look at this whole class of products right now as it sounds a little maybe too over the top, but kind of like a security preview.

1:30:03

Like we we know there's a whole bunch of risks with allowing the browser and these models to take actions like this.

1:30:08

You really have to supervise it.

1:30:10

We have a ton of checks and balances.

1:30:11

It'll ask you a ton of steps along the way to make sure everything's still on the rails.

1:30:14

Uh, but we're learning alongside everybody else and this area is going to evolve really, really fast.

1:30:19

So, we're >> ready to just keep playing whack-a-ole as these issues come up. >> Yeah. Are there any surprises?

1:30:23

Do you have anything that that might be teed up for us?

1:30:28

I we love hitting the gong around here.

1:30:30

>> So, so we did we are now the first ever AI app to also drop groups. >> Okay.

1:30:35

Are you on the most aggressive version of liquid glass by the way?

1:30:38

>> I am like liquided out. >> I am.

1:30:41

It's it's all glass all the way. >> Okay. It looks good.

1:30:43

H2O Max >> and with Pro Max you actually get the battery life so it can power liquid glass. >> Okay, cool. There we go. >> Yeah. Yeah, exactly.

1:30:49

Um, so groups is phenomenal.

1:30:51

It's now the first place where if you're having a chat with co-pilot, you just add someone to the group.

1:30:54

Use it for my wife when she's asked me questions.

1:30:56

I have no idea the answer is all the time.

1:30:57

I can just put her in the chat and she can just take the rest from me.

1:30:59

Uh, but creating a group and other people >> you're not bringing it to teams.

1:31:04

It's like yeah sharing this and then and then we're both on.

1:31:08

>> So when I'm in when I'm in the thread >> I just hit share invite with a link.

1:31:11

I can drop it in iMessage or whatever and then she's just in the chat and they don't even install the app.

1:31:17

>> They can just use it right from mobile Safari which is super cool.

1:31:18

And so this is the first time across all these apps that you can finally do this which >> how it seems like it's such a great and somewhat obvious feature.

1:31:26

I'm somewhat I'm somewhat surprised that it hasn't.

1:31:29

>> I was shocked when I when I joined Mai.

1:31:32

I was like no one has built anything social in any of these products.

1:31:33

I worked on my eye at Snapchat before I left and so like no one had really done social since then.

1:31:39

I was like I'll do it again. I'm like, "That's fine. We'll run it back." >> Okay. Okay.

1:31:44

>> And then and then one of the really cool things that we did, I was >> Yes.

1:31:48

>> Cop knows all about you guys, by the way. >> Oh, really?

1:31:51

>> Well, we do put out 15 hours of content every day. Okay.

1:31:55

>> We introduced Mo, uh, who's this new person that you can talk to, this new character, uh, really cute face.

1:31:59

It's not going to sex with you.

1:32:01

So, it's completely different than the other AI appearance.

1:32:06

>> It's not It's explicitly nonexplicit.

1:32:08

That's not what it's going to be.

1:32:08

This is a counter positioning.

1:32:09

We love counter >> position.

1:32:11

Bring the dog for that's not what's going to happen.

1:32:17

>> Please bring the dog >> is is not traditional market and traditional values.

1:32:25

>> And so with traditional values at our core, uh as soon as we showed uh Mo to Satia, his favorite thing actually was like poking it, which I couldn't find a better way to describe that on air without it sounding a little bit weird.

1:32:37

Again, it's it's it's going to be strictly platonic. It's safe for work.

1:32:40

It's totally safe for work >> because this is from the company that brought you Microsoft Excel >> and and we and of course of course >> and I would trust that brand.

1:32:46

>> And so as as you poke Mo. >> Yes. >> And >> Okay.

1:32:51

>> How many times do you have to >> You really got to hammer it. >> Hammer. Clippy. Clippy is back. >> Let's go.

1:33:02

>> We We have been We have been asking for this.

1:33:05

>> Is this breaking news? Is this a scoop for us?

1:33:07

>> This is >> This is the first time this has been on air. >> The train now. Clippy is back. This is reborn. >> Yes. Incredible.

1:33:17

>> So, Clippy walked so Mo could run.

1:33:20

>> And so, we got to pay homage to our roots.

1:33:21

And so, Sache when he saw this demanded >> Yes. >> that Clippy front.

1:33:24

I think I I think people people have people forget >> we've been we've been begging for this.

1:33:32

>> We've been begging for this.

1:33:32

Obviously, Clippy had like a bad bad rep and people were like, "It didn't do what it was promised."

1:33:38

But I feel like all of the nuance of like where it wasn't perfect has completely melted away and it's just lore. It's just great lore.

1:33:47

>> Your parents hated it so that kids loved it and it was cool to love it.

1:33:48

So, everybody else got on board >> and so it's so ready to bring it back.

1:33:53

So, >> well, I just Yeah.

1:33:53

So many good so many good memories of being in the computer lab at school and just looking down and knowing that Clippy was there. He was riding with me.

1:34:00

How how are we what what does it take to update the name of the app in the iOS app store to just clippy?

1:34:08

>> You got right now it's an Easter egg, >> but we're working here together.

1:34:16

>> Actually, there's like a team of 25 people that really worked hard on Mo and they're not CMOS.

1:34:23

This is not, you know, >> bring that clippy but uh that is very exciting.

1:34:26

Thank you so much for coming by.

1:34:28

No, thanks for having me guys and uh breaking it down.

1:34:29

Uh what a what a fascinating time in the industry.

1:34:32

What a fascinating place to be.

1:34:34

It must be thrilling to be in your seat.

1:34:37

>> It's an absolute treat.

1:34:37

There's five places in the world you can try to build frontier Frontier AI for a billion people.

1:34:42

And this team and this setup, it's unbelievable.

1:34:43

So it's a really >> no as a as a as a as a true product guy like going somewhere where you have that scale, resources, etc.

1:34:49

Um, and it's actually, you know, it's good that we have just this flood of flood of talent into into early stage companies and the labs and all that stuff, but uh, it's actually incredibly important that talented people go and work at, you know, these companies that already power, you know, use cases for billions of people, millions and millions of companies.

1:35:10

So, I'm I'm glad you're going to do it 100%. >> Yeah.

1:35:13

Anyway, so you guys fantastic. >> Uh, congratulations.

1:35:18

Our next guest is uh Drew Hston from Dropbox hopping on at 100 p. m.

1:35:21

Uh we have 30 minutes to take you through more of the news.

1:35:26

But first, let me tell you about Numerhq. com.

1:35:30

Let Numemeral worry about sales tax and VAT compliance. >> I use it myself.

1:35:33

It's the official tax partner of Lucy, the nicotine company who Palmer also got in trouble with uh talking about nicotine.

1:35:42

Uh, but that is a much lower that's a much less, you know, controversial topic.

1:35:47

I think everyone has hashed out the nicotine story so many times.

1:35:53

>> I hope everyone knows.

1:35:54

>> I can't believe I >> The Economist published it back. Wait, what?

1:35:57

>> I can't I just can't believe Clippy's back.

1:36:00

>> You're still rocked by this. >> I'm rocked.

1:36:01

This is shaking my worldview. >> I love it.

1:36:05

>> Uh, no, but this is uh this is super fun.

1:36:07

the uh the the the nic uh the nicotine thing is funny because uh everyone was getting mad about Palmer for basically, you know, in his own way teeing up the argument of like are there benefits to nicotine?

1:36:19

And like this is a topic that has been discussed by Gw back in 2014 2015.

1:36:25

Then uh we started Lucy, we were talking about it a little bit.

1:36:33

Andrew Humemerman did a big deep dive on nicotine, kind of laid out some of the complexities and uh he actually revisited that.

1:36:39

It's in the stack uh today.

1:36:41

Do you have his post pulled up?

1:36:42

What did he wind up actually saying fully? I'll pull it up here. >> Pull that up.

1:36:46

But the re uh the really interesting one is from the Economist, who I regard as a pretty conservative organization.

1:36:54

They're not really doing hot takes over there.

1:36:56

um September 12th, 2025 published an article called uh what nicotine does to your brain.

1:37:02

Their conclusion, the drug is hugely addictive, but it does boost mental performance.

1:37:08

And so that's the formulation that that I think that I think Palmer was like grappling with, which is there's mental performance, it's highly addictive.

1:37:16

How do you balance those in a world where you remove the carcinogens and you don't wind up with uh actually smoking cigarettes?

1:37:23

Uh but >> he was talking about that it's an appetite suppressant. Exactly.

1:37:26

There seems there's obviously benefits and not being overweight. Yep.

1:37:31

>> Uh there's trade-offs with everything. >> Yeah.

1:37:33

Um but uh any anyway uh what was Hubberman's final?

1:37:37

Let's trust the experts on this one. What was final?

1:37:40

Huberman's final >> said with Palmer Ly's comments about nicotine on TVPN, your reminder that yes, nicotine increases focus also is very habit forming. Duh. Is not carcinogen. I know.

1:37:50

I know that it's habit forming.

1:37:51

I've quit nicotine, you know, five or five or six times.

1:37:56

>> I I I typically quit it like every night before I go to bed. >> Yeah.

1:37:59

And then pick it back up.

1:38:03

>> Uh is not carcinogenic unless smoked, vaped, dipped, or snuffed and is an is an unusual stimulant because it simultaneously focuses and relax you.

1:38:12

Also raises blood pressure.

1:38:12

So, >> uh again, uh do your own research.

1:38:15

Also, 21 plus, don't get in the game unless you're >> 21 plus, Tyler. >> I've never What?

1:38:25

Why are you looking at me?

1:38:28

>> Well, uh, >> they they went to the wrong >> They went to the wrong camera.

1:38:32

>> Uh, the little jump scare.

1:38:34

>> Travis Kelce is teaming up with an activist group to invest in and revive Six Flags.

1:38:39

Um, uh, there was another >> How much? >> Oh, I don't know. We have no idea. left.

1:38:48

Um, Mike Isaac says, "Genuinely appreciate how Pop Crave left out the investor part of activist investor group because all the people in the replies think that there's going to be like a BLM takeover of the roller coaster park."

1:39:00

Someone else was saying like, "Did Travis Kelce like get three wishes when when he was like 11 to I want to be a football player?

1:39:08

I want to date the biggest pop star in the world. I want to take over."

1:39:13

>> Uh, it's a it's a $200 million deal.

1:39:13

He bought 9% of the theme park operator.

1:39:19

Uh, and we love to see bigname celebrities crossing over to the private equity world.

1:39:24

>> Wow, they have the ticker wet.

1:39:26

>> Do you know their ticker? >> Fun. >> So good.

1:39:29

>> That's a great ticker.

1:39:30

>> And little fun fact, turns out according to Chad GBT, you cannot reserve and barter stock tickers.

1:39:38

I think we need to do a PSA about this.

1:39:40

We heard some rumor that people were trying to in the way that you buy a domain maybe you squat on it.

1:39:48

Let's say that you think that uh you know after ai. com after chat.

1:39:50

com after after quantum computing.

1:39:54

com there's going to be a wave in time travel.

1:39:56

So you go out and buy timetravel.

1:39:58

com and you wait and then somebody comes and buys it from you and you make a nice return on your investment.

1:40:03

That's totally cool in the com world.

1:40:05

that doesn't work with reserving New York Stock Exchange tickers.

1:40:10

Like you can't trade them that way, at least according to CHBT.

1:40:13

Um, and >> so speaking of just funny stock tickers, uh, I we we do not believe in >> I can see why I can see why Travis Kelce was was interested in this.

1:40:24

Six Flags trades at at at less than 1x revenue. >> Whoa.

1:40:30

>> Um, so uh, >> hugely deep value here.

1:40:35

Are are are you bullish on uh first, do you like theme parks? >> No. >> Never never been.

1:40:46

>> I used to go to Legoland a lot growing up. I enjoyed Legoland. >> Yeah.

1:40:50

>> Uh but I kind of grew out of theme parks at a young age and I haven't been to one.

1:40:55

And >> I never had a fear of heights.

1:40:56

I never I never decade I never was like I don't like them.

1:41:00

Uh, but I also was never like I got to go a ton.

1:41:04

Uh, kids sort of change that because kids really like them.

1:41:09

It's fun to go with the kids.

1:41:11

Uh, but Six Flags is a different target audience.

1:41:18

It's not as there's not as much lore around every ride.

1:41:22

Um, but are you bullish on theme parks generally in a world where Bill Peebles is updating us on Sora and and it seems like the march of generative AI is unrelenting.

1:41:38

Are we should you go long slop and then also, you know, steel on the on the roller coaster track?

1:41:49

>> I think I'm somewhat takeless here.

1:41:49

>> I think I'm somewhat takeless here. I I don't you know uh when Chesy was on a couple days ago his point of view was that as as slop increases people will I mean these are my words not his but you know digital life becomes more intense

1:42:06

people will want to touch grass more they'll want to go on trips things like that but in some ways I feel like the theme park is like real world slop right it feels like it I imagine going to Six Flags for me would for 4 hours would feel like I would come away feeling like use I was using Sora for 4 hours, right? Yes. Yes. >> Like not exactly.

1:42:24

It's not like really counterposition.

1:42:29

>> It's not exactly the Metropolitan.

1:42:30

>> It feels like the physical, you know, because I I just I don't like to pay to be in crowds.

1:42:35

>> It's physical brain rot.

1:42:36

>> Yeah, >> it's brain rot IRL.

1:42:38

>> But maybe Travis Kelce wants to >> turn it around. >> Turn it around.

1:42:42

>> Tear down the tear down roller coasters.

1:42:44

Put in Put in a >> Maybe he wants to increase the risk, right?

1:42:47

players go out there, they're going headtohead, right?

1:42:50

It's a high-risisk environment, a lot of injuries.

1:42:53

Maybe he says, "Hey, Six Flags injury rate right now."

1:42:55

This is this is the Nathan Fielder strategy.

1:43:00

The the the uh sort of accident rate is so low on the roller coasters that people don't get the same rush as if they thought that there was maybe like >> half a percent chance that that each that a ride would end in disaster, right?

1:43:13

And so then that would, you know, really bring you into the physical world and really make you feel human to be taking on that level of risk, right? Yeah. >> So, who knows?

1:43:21

>> Well, good luck to him.

1:43:21

Uh the the Sora update, we already talked about Sora a little bit, but uh new new uh you can register cameos of specific things so your dog can become a cameo and then you can create.

1:43:36

>> Finally, thank you for listening to your users, Bill Peeble. Finally. Finally.

1:43:43

>> I mean, I like I You're for sure gonna do this.

1:43:47

I like I think it's going to be hilarious to put my dog on a skateboard at the X Games.

1:43:52

Like, if you don't think that's fun, like you're just like humorless and like you're you're you're like a a slop scold. You're a scold.

1:44:00

>> I think it's I think it's >> Let me enjoy my dog at the >> I've been joking a little bit.

1:44:03

I I like to horse around, >> but I think it's smart because they had so much push back from using IP >> and it's got to be it's got to be like and people will be excited to generate images of their dogs at the X games.

1:44:18

>> And I'm going to and I'm going to take my dog and I'm going to scan a kickflip and he's going to do a kick flip and I'm going to send that to the family group chat which is the my new social network.

1:44:27

My like there is social media and then there is social networking.

1:44:30

I think this is a great take by Chesy and so my social network exists on iMessage and so I will send the video.

1:44:38

>> I still very much feel like like acts as a social network.

1:44:42

>> I feel like it's a professional network. It's my LinkedIn. >> Okay.

1:44:44

Professional network but my social life is almost entirely overlapped with my professional life.

1:44:50

>> If if I'm if I'm trying to figure out what I'm going to be doing in my social life on this weekend, axe has nothing to do with it.

1:44:58

that is that is orchestrated purely in IM >> but it's the way that I catch up with the majority of my friends. >> Yes. Yes.

1:45:05

I agree >> in terms of like keeping a pulse on what they're doing in the world.

1:45:10

>> It is more social media than like pure algo media. Yeah.

1:45:13

>> So there is something there.

1:45:13

But anyway >> speaking >> yeah it's going to be fun to play >> media. >> What else? >> Not really.

1:45:19

But uh ramp data is now available in the Bloomberg terminal. This is cool.

1:45:23

can track AI adoption rate, business size right in your terminal.

1:45:29

>> The best news, >> very differentiated and real-time data source. Cool.

1:45:34

Uh very cool move from AR and the ramp team. >> It's very good. >> Uh this is crazy.

1:45:39

The unit >> before we read this, let me tell you about Vanta automate compliance, manage risk, proof trust continuously.

1:45:44

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1:45:46

Uh, the Uni Tree G1 crawl policy has been deployed to hardware.

1:45:54

Plenty of room for improvement, but it's a start.

1:45:55

Let's pull up this video.

1:45:56

This is a This is a humanoid that can turn into >> Oh, wait. This is a humanoid. >> Oh, this is crazy.

1:46:08

>> I mean, I feel like I I I don't want to be too too negative here, but I feel like the film the filmmakers are really not stepping up.

1:46:17

Like I feel like the creative tools right now both with like AI stuff but also like you could buy one of those or rent it and you could shoot a horror film right now practically like you wouldn't be you wouldn't be like generating the AI make a humanoid robot horror lowbudget horror film right now >> or or action movie or anything like that just feels like a character that you could immediately put into a and tell a whole story around. What do you think?

1:46:49

>> Or a character on this show. >> Yeah, that's true.

1:46:50

I think we might have to do it. We might have to.

1:46:54

>> I mean, there's something uh beautifully dark about a humanoid that's walking and then it suddenly turns into this in >> Yeah. >> thing. >> That is very spooky.

1:47:04

Are we going to get one of these? Okay.

1:47:08

If we get one of these, we also have to get a couple Desert Eagles because if it starts acting up, we have to be able to take it out, right?

1:47:18

Like we have to have we have to have, you know, it's like if we were going to actually do the the the the hearth, I would also say, "Hey guys, let's get a fire extinguisher," right?

1:47:29

And so because like what happens if you're training and you the log rolls out? >> Yeah.

1:47:35

And then the AI becomes sentient and then tries to kill us, right?

1:47:36

That's why we need the fire extinguisher.

1:47:40

>> Well, that's what No, no, we just need the fire extinguisher because it's good safety policy if you're using uh a warm hearth to fine-tune GPT OSS on an a rack of eight H100s because if you're going to be burning a log inside, uh you should have, you know, proper equipment.

1:47:58

And I think if we get this humanoid, you got to be ready to take this thing out.

1:48:02

You have to be ready to take this thing out.

1:48:03

Jordy, what do you think?

1:48:07

How are you taking this thing out if it rises up?

1:48:08

If we get one of these, I want to be prepared on day one.

1:48:10

I'm >> I think you strap I think you strap charges to it. >> Okay.

1:48:17

>> And so and it has just a vested anytime >> that that a vest that that we have.

1:48:23

We release it at any moment. It explodes. >> Basically a kevlar.

1:48:26

It has a kevlar suit over it.

1:48:28

Explosives on the inside.

1:48:30

>> Oh, so it explodes inward. >> Explodes inward. >> Yes.

1:48:34

I feel like strapping a suicide vest on is the is the that's the last thing I would do.

1:48:38

>> I think that might be worse.

1:48:39

>> Charging is charging at you and running away with the >> Oh, no. No.

1:48:42

If it if it one wrong move, we're all going down.

1:48:47

>> We're all going with it. >> Oh, this is uh wild.

1:48:49

Anyway, um let me tell you about figma. com.

1:48:52

Think bigger, build faster.

1:48:54

Figma helps design and development teams build great products together. Uh what is this?

1:48:57

Is this literally This is literally chat GPT.

1:49:02

Should we play this Family Guy clip or is this a Sora video?

1:49:03

I I'm not familiar with this.

1:49:05

Did you put this in here? >> No. >> Okay, let's move on.

1:49:07

Uh Fared has a chart that looks so insane.

1:49:10

Uh it's chat GPT's customer retention.

1:49:13

What do you think about this?

1:49:15

How do you square this with the earlier data that we saw that uh showed that hey there might be some slowing adoption?

1:49:24

>> This looks like you think this looks like >> this can be this is unrelated to growth. >> Yes.

1:49:30

This is just when somebody tries chat GPT are how how many months later are they still using it?

1:49:36

>> I mean it's directly related to growth because if you have really great retention you can just add 5% of new people that try all stick around forever as opposed to when you have a leaky bucket you're like we need to be doing Super Bowl ads every day cuz like people are only going to come in and they're going to leave after a week. >> Sure. Sure. Sure.

1:49:51

>> Sure. Sure. Sure. But but but generally just looking at like you know these new cohorts what like and and I think that uh this chart is not nearly as impactful if you haven't worked on like a consumer mobile app right because this is like

1:50:08

beyond bestin-class >> but I think this is what you would expect right people try chat GPT they love it they stick around it becomes a part of their life it becomes like you know a a kind of muscle memory quick quickly It's become a, you know, let's ask chat type of thing. So,

1:50:23

So, >> look at the difference of the 10-month line for the the the most recent 10 months ago they joined versus two years ago they joined from a 45% or 10-month retention to 70% retention.

1:50:38

Like that is just an incredible.

1:50:42

They're pushing up those lines.

1:50:44

It's not just that the lines plateau at 50%.

1:50:46

So for every person that gives it a try, there's a 50% chance that they just never leave, right?

1:50:53

Uh and then also it's smiling.

1:50:53

So you get people to come back.

1:50:55

That's that's a great sign.

1:50:57

But also they're pushing up the retention curve so much so quickly.

1:51:02

Um and yeah, I mean this is just uh yeah, product product getting better.

1:51:07

But congratulations to the team over there. That is fantastic news.

1:51:09

Um, >> Shane Copeland, >> if you're wait hold on if you're trying to run one of these analyses on your company, you probably need to use Julius AI, the AI data analyst that works for you.

1:51:21

Join millions who use Julius to connect their data, ask questions, and get insights in seconds. >> Billions very soon.

1:51:27

Shane Copelan was locked in at uh, is this >> I don't know what sport this is, but I can see on the jersey it's Cleveland. >> Cleveland.

1:51:41

some sort of cross town rival stadium. Very cool.

1:51:44

Courtside, love to see it. >> Yeah.

1:51:48

>> Uh he's he's locked in on the phone. That's very fun. Uh dialing in.

1:51:50

Uh and everyone's saying, "Oh, he's trading. He's he's front." >> Okay.

1:51:56

So, I'm I'm worried about uh getting one shot by a AI again.

1:51:59

But Melissa Chen has a post here.

1:52:02

She says, "Actual shot, not AI, of a French detective working the case of the French crown jewels that were stolen from the Louv in a brazen daylight robbery.

1:52:13

Somehow he looks like he's smoking, even without a cigarette in his hand.

1:52:15

But surely everything you know about life is screaming at you.

1:52:19

This case is officially screwed.

1:52:21

To solve it, we need an unshaven, overweight, washed out detective who's in the middle of a divorce.

1:52:27

A functioning alcoholic who the rest of the department hates.

1:52:29

Never going to crack it with a detective who wears an actual fedora unironically.

1:52:37

>> I mean, >> is this true?

1:52:39

>> This guy really >> There are so many weird things about this photo. >> Okay. Okay. Okay. Yep.

1:52:44

I knew this was too good to be too good to be true.

1:52:47

The the community note says this is this is a photo is real taken outside the lou after the jewel theft, but the man in the the door is a passer by, not a detective on the case. >> There you go.

1:52:59

>> Didn't stop it from getting 42,000.

1:53:01

>> Look, look at the look at the woman in the back all the way on the right.

1:53:03

Her face is like perfectly lit.

1:53:06

Like this is a remarkable photograph just from a like a dynamic range perspective. Uh this is >> Yeah.

1:53:13

to so so my uh putting on the tin foil hat.

1:53:16

I think this guy with the fedora is probably one of the thiefs that dressed up in an costume and is coming back to the crime scene like this, >> you know, cuz obviously the thief wouldn't come back to the crime scene.

1:53:28

So he's kind of, >> you know, trying to take him take himself out of the pool of suspects.

1:53:33

Even if you take off the tin foil hat and just go with like the the narrative that's here on the timeline, it is hilarious to be like, "Yeah, I'm going to dress up like this and then go be a passer by at a Jewel of Fever."

1:53:42

Like >> he's like, "I'm going to go get a fit off." >> Yeah. He's like, "I got to go.

1:53:46

I I I got to go see what's up at the L. >> Got to be there.

1:53:49

I have to be photographed." >> Yeah, for sure. For sure.

1:53:51

Uh Drip, he's he's a dripped out Frenchman. For sure. >> Dripped out.

1:53:59

>> Let me tell you about Privy.

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1:54:02

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1:54:06

Um, uh, do you want to do this uncapped clip? Look at the lighting.

1:54:12

Jack Alman, your team is on a tear. This is beautiful. Good job. I love this.

1:54:15

Uh, I haven't seen the clip, but let's react. What is it?

1:54:20

>> Learned at CIA is uh, star quality is real.

1:54:25

>> Um, most people don't have it, some do. >> What is it?

1:54:28

Um, you just know it when you see it in a room.

1:54:32

>> Um, Tom Cruz is, you know, maybe my favorite actor growing up.

1:54:36

I've seen Top Gun a zillion times. I loved Maverick.

1:54:38

I had the opportunity to meet him one day in a very kind of random setting.

1:54:42

I was delivering a package to him and, you know, he shook my hand and looked me in the eye and we talked for three minutes.

1:54:49

And, you know, for three minutes, I I thought, "Wow, this no one cares more about me in the world right now than Tom Cruz does, right?

1:54:56

The way he just commands a room and his presence.

1:54:57

M >> but also when Colin Frell, >> you heard it here first. Command the room. No excuses.

1:55:04

>> Never been in a movie before and you spent 30 minutes in a room with him and um he just had so much magnetism about him.

1:55:11

The way he composed himself and talked to you and looked at you and just his general kind of persona.

1:55:15

Um so I do think that to me um I do look for that in founders.

1:55:22

Um, it's it's the combination of a mind at work and an opportunity that they're addressing, right?

1:55:30

Um, I remember when I first met Evan from uh, SNAP, he, you know, basically was making the argument that look at the look at the um, generation of young people coming up with the Iraq war essentially having been, you might say, a hoax, right?

1:55:50

The WMDs were never there.

1:55:52

Rolling into the financial crisis.

1:55:54

Oh, you told us we had the best economic system and then it almost collapsed, right?

1:55:58

Uh and then co right the the he built Snap as a platform as a reflection of those trends, right? So what was it?

1:56:08

Well, everything disappears, right?

1:56:10

No one kind of stores your data.

1:56:12

You can't trust institutions to look out for you.

1:56:15

I think it ended up being incredibly precient of where we are today as a world, right?

1:56:19

where the institutional breakdown that we've seen.

1:56:22

So, um I think that that magnetism about uh a person in a room and an idea and a market that they're going after. >> Be goatated. No excuses. That's my takeway.

1:56:39

>> That's That's the right takeaway. >> Be be goated.

1:56:42

>> Uh John, by the way, we can we can lightly hear you snacking on those pistachios. So, just a heads up. [Music] I am snacking.

1:56:54

>> Please, no, no snacking ASMR on this show.

1:56:57

People can find that house elsewhere.

1:56:59

Uh we have some breaking news.

1:57:02

Uh we you've heard about, you know, uh funds that directly buy, you know, equity in in companies.

1:57:09

Uh you've heard about secondaries funds that that buy stakes in in other funds.

1:57:15

And we've got something new.

1:57:18

We got some breaking news.

1:57:20

We've now got tertiary funds.

1:57:27

>> Uh >> quatinary funds.

1:57:27

Next, >> uh Leila says, "I can't believe it's come to this, but here's a visual representation of this ridiculous structure.

1:57:35

Bottom is actual portfolio companies purchased by PE funds one and two with respective LPS.

1:57:40

A secondary fund comes along, buys LP interest in funds one and two from some LPS.

1:57:44

This secondary fund raises money from other LPs.

1:57:49

But now we have a tertiaries fund.

1:57:51

This fund will buy secondary interest in secondaries funds by raising money from other LPS.

1:57:56

Does anyone even remember how many layers back the actual value is created? PS.

1:58:00

Not to be confused with C uh continuation vehicles.

1:58:03

Uh stay tuned for that visual.

1:58:06

So, uh, >> yeah, this is starting to look like the, uh, collateralized debt obligations, credit default swaps, uh, from the mortgage crisis.

1:58:16

It It's like very similar.

1:58:18

Like, you remember in the Big Short there's like the, you know, you have your stack of champagne glasses.

1:58:23

You pour the champagne in one glass and then it like flows down.

1:58:25

Did you you didn't, did you?

1:58:28

>> No, I have seen that one. One of the five. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

1:58:30

It's very very similar where like um at every at every trunch you like recolateralize and and reagregate and ideally like distribute the risk but if there's correlation then there can be uh problems.

1:58:42

Um, I don't really know how big this stuff is and certainly not like publicly traded yet, but wow.

1:58:49

To be a tertiary >> asset managers doing asset management stuff.

1:58:55

>> Should be a tertiary GP. That's a that's a life. H. >> Yeah.

1:59:00

A lot of big short memes going around.

1:59:03

>> Yeah, we should have one on.

1:59:03

Uh, there's probably a bull case for it that's actually like pretty pretty sound.

1:59:06

It actually makes makes sense.

1:59:09

>> Yeah, I can see it making sense in some circumstances.

1:59:11

circumstances. I think the concern is like you're just no one can get liquidity so you're just kind of like passing the buck passing the buck you know GPS are harvesting fees at each level but there's no actual uh like returns flowing like from the underlying

1:59:28

like sort of value right so >> yeah yeah I believe it >> what else >> YASA owned by Mercedes recently smashed their own record for motor weight size and horsepower this production intent motor weighs 28 lb and produces 1,000 horsepower. Uh Kyle Cords in the

1:59:45

Uh Kyle Cords in the comments says, "I do not understand the point of this.

1:59:51

There are already five EV brands with amply good enough motors.

1:59:54

The motor power density is nowhere near the limiting factor on EV profitability or adoption.

1:59:58

If they can make an adequate motor cheaper, that would be much more valuable innovation, though still not the limiting factor.

2:00:06

>> Yeah, I have no idea what their intention is for this motor.

2:00:07

Could be they want to uh just use it in Formula One, right? >> I see. Why not? It looks sick.

2:00:16

Yeah, this is uh >> I mean, they'll put in something put one on every wheel.

2:00:21

Why not 4,000 horsepower?

2:00:24

>> Like there there seems to be no no limit.

2:00:26

Like the appetite for horsepower is is sort of endless. >> Yeah.

2:00:30

And somebody here says, "Wouldn't this also be useful for drones, copters, planes?"

2:00:33

And the the original poster says absolutely yes.

2:00:36

So, >> and also the G63 lander, the G63 6x6, like these things, >> version, >> imagine if you put one of these at each, you know, the G Wagon has gone electric.

2:00:51

What will they do with the 6x6?

2:00:51

The six- wheeled G Wagon says, "What are your intentions with my motor?"

2:00:59

>> Um, but uh you know, imagine one of those at each at each wheel of the 6x6.

2:01:06

you get 6,000 horsepower in a thing the size of a tank, that'd be fantastic.

2:01:12

>> Uh, more interesting news, uh, self-driving taxi company Whimo is now doing 876,000 rides per month in California, 6x increase over the past year and a 69x increase since August of 2023.

2:01:28

>> Do you think they wind up working with Uber longterm or not?

2:01:31

Ben Thompson was talking about like he has been writing a lot about the Uber Whimo the self-driving taxi stuff.

2:01:35

Whimo the self-driving taxi stuff. um mostly because he thinks like he needs more data like because even at Uber and Whimo like they don't necessarily know what the consumer behavior will be like will the consumers stay with Uber and they'll order an and they'll order a Whimo when one's available um but then

2:01:55

when they'll want one app that can get them anywhere and so if you say well I need you to drive me into the snow to go to Big Bear today like you want to do all that in one app or will people say I I use the Whimo app for most things and then when I want to go into the snow and use a human driver for some specific route then I'm happy to open up the the the Uber app. >> Yeah, we should get Dara on

2:02:16

>> Yeah, we should get Dara on >> because there's because there's they're they're actually sort of AB testing this because some markets are just Whimo app, some of them are Whimo in Uber and it's very clear that they're running like an experiment. >> Yeah. >> Yeah.

2:02:27

Uh anyway, >> yeah, we'll see. Yeah.

2:02:29

It'll be I mean right now Whimo is quite a bit more expensive on a per trip basis than Uber and so it's possible the ride share market you know used to be bifurcated a little bit between Uber and Lyft.

2:02:39

Lyft was always you know I remember when I was in college I was using Lyft more because it was like slightly cheaper. >> Yeah.

2:02:47

>> Uh and it's possible that Whimo ends up becoming like more of a luxury good and people just have the Whimo app and and and more price sensitive consumers are just sticking with Uber. So, we'll see. >> Yeah.

2:02:59

Uh, before our next guest joins, let me tell you about Finn.

2:03:02

ai, the number one AI agent.

2:03:03

If you want your AI to handle customer support, go to finn. ai.

2:03:10

Um, our next guest is Drew Hust from Dropbox. >> Welcome to the show. Drew, how are you doing? >> What's happening? >> How's it going, guys? >> Great to see you.

2:03:18

Uh, >> we've been excited for this one.

2:03:21

>> Yeah, very, very excited.

2:03:21

Um, where should we start?

2:03:24

Are are you are you a Whimo fan? Are you an Uber fan?

2:03:26

We were debating like where does the consumer experience go?

2:03:29

I mean I I I know you're probably in the position where you might not have to choose, but uh it it's an interesting question in my mind of like will people want the the you know the super app for that can get them the robot taxi or the human uh long term or if uh folks just wind up moving over to Whimo entirely?

2:03:51

>> Yeah, I mean I think it's going to be interesting to see how fast it diffuses.

2:03:55

I mean I think there's still like that um or that that like quality problem and they're getting that like third nine, fourth nine, fifth nine. Yeah.

2:04:03

>> I mean that's really what's and Carpathy talked about that on why agents are going to be further away than people think.

2:04:09

And so but I mean I think it's I mean SF it's like pretty well established.

2:04:15

So I think that's probably a sign of what's to come. >> Yeah.

2:04:17

Uh, did the did the Carpathy uh did the Carpathy uh podcast like update you on Dropbox's strategy at all or was it something that you were already hearing like rumbles of and you were like, "Okay, now I have like permission to fully write that to long-term memory or how were you processing it?"

2:04:37

You know, because I think they were like there it there was nothing there that was like completely, oh, no one has ever given this take before.

2:04:44

It was more like no one has ever said it in this context with this authority.

2:04:50

>> It was it was uh it was somebody whose opinion holds a lot of weight that isn't like waiting didn't feel like he's waiting out for the next like big tender offer, >> you know. No, totally.

2:05:01

>> So, it was like it was felt like less conflicted than some of the other opinions that that get shared. >> Yeah. >> Totally. Yeah.

2:05:07

No, I'm very aligned with it.

2:05:08

it. I don't think there was to your point, I don't think it was like a lot of new um uh or you know, I agree with a lot of these themes that the industry's been thinking about for a while, but um yeah, sort of like a splash of sobriety on the space and and I think self-driving is a good

2:05:25

>> uh comp in some ways for like why this why AI or AGI or this like fast takeoff might you know not be as quick or on on the kind of timelines that people are thinking about because yeah, you know, Carpathy talks about this March of Nines like it's the same amount of work to go from like 90% reliability. That's like

2:05:39

That's like one unit of work.

2:05:41

Then to get to 99 is like the same amount of work. Then 99. 9.

2:05:47

I mean, we've certainly seen that in our um as we've worked with AI and as we just work on reliability in general.

2:05:51

I think that's that's very consistent.

2:05:53

And I think >> yeah, the self-driving car took the world or capture the world's imagination like 15 years ago.

2:05:59

And yet it's these like more intermediate forms of automation that are that come way before autonomy that create a lot of the commercial value um and get a lot more adoption.

2:06:10

So, for example, like there's like billions of users of Google Maps >> today.

2:06:14

Uh, but you know, maybe thousands of people are going to get in a Whimo today.

2:06:19

>> Um, and then same thing for like, you know, highway assist or what Tesla's done or some of these intermediate forms of self-driving that have maybe millions of users.

2:06:25

And so, we think about that a lot as we deploy AI.

2:06:27

And, you know, you don't want to be either too early or too late, both with tech in general, but also with automation, for sure. >> Yeah. Yeah.

2:06:34

Yeah, it feels like if you watched the Carpathy episode on Friday and you walked into the office on Monday and like ripped up your whole plan, like something's maybe going wrong with your leadership style.

2:06:44

Um, but but it is an interesting frame to think about it in the decade of agents framing.

2:06:47

And I'm wondering like you've been at this for >> two decades now, correct? Like roughly.

2:06:55

Uh, and uh, and so you're you're like fully equipped to think in decades because you have literally thought in decades multiple times, right?

2:07:01

And so I'm wondering how you're thinking about the next decade like in 10 years what if things play out kind of to the midcase and we get a lot of really powerful AI systems but they don't come next quarter how do you set your company up to actually capitalize fully over like a nice long decade of just solid execution. >> Yeah.

2:07:27

Um, well, I think when AI first came along, people's imaginations immediately went to like, you know, sci-fi movies and sort of the one omnicient omnipotent AI assistant.

2:07:35

Um, but for a while, yeah, I think like looking at I was surprised when I was, you know, 30 when self-driving first came out.

2:07:45

I was like, "Oh, yeah, maybe maybe millions of people will be off the road.

2:07:48

Maybe we'll never see another human behind the wheel uh when we go to work."

2:07:52

>> Um, and it just like took a lot longer.

2:07:55

And and then I've been working with like even when you're just designing like systems with engineering and and certainly as you start to apply machine intelligence, you see these dynamics where like the demos look super good um and sort of convince you that it's like right around the corner, but then when you actually scale these things up, it's a lot harder than it looks.

2:08:12

And so we saw that even before AI with like Dropbox to begin with like we could make a very good demo or a video like in the first couple months but then to roll it out at like mission critical uh and massive sc to roll out such a mission critical product at massive scale um you know you can't have a bad day and that just takes a lot more engineering and and we see that with our AI products today.

2:08:34

today. So I mean we're and along the you know we want to build the omnicient you know omnipotent AI agent too but when we actually look at you like look at customers and look on their screens the more basic problem that people have that AI can help with today is just that like

2:08:51

your screen's a mess like work is a mess you have like 100 tabs open um you know you're working across Google and Slack and your email and Dropbox and you know dozen other things and you know the question I started with is like how much is AI helping with that? >> Yeah. >> Yeah.

2:09:08

>> And the answer is like zero or negative. >> Yeah.

2:09:10

The the other thing is I'm sure reliability was like a core focus for Dropbox during the early days because if you're like a fi online file storage and then like 1% of the time like a file just like disappears into the ether.

2:09:24

It's not saved and then the the the user you know might have lost it forever and that's like going to stick in their brain forever.

2:09:30

And so like reliability at Dropbox means like 99.

2:09:33

9999999999999 forever, right?

2:09:38

And and it feels like the industry in you know spending a decade building SAS and building SAS that was pretty reliable and and having like a bunch of infrastructure that makes it easier to deliver reliability maybe forgot how like how important it is.

2:09:52

And if you have an AI agent that that does an amazing job 90% of the time and just totally botches botches it 10% of the time, it's not ready for production.

2:10:01

And so you can have these magical and I think in the context of like customer support is a big one is like is your agent ready for production if it if like 95% of the time it it it solves the consumer's problem, but 5% of the time it makes them like pissed off and they're just like talk to a human.

2:10:19

talk to a human, you know, and they're just running down that that that conversation.

2:10:24

But >> yeah, well, I mean, even if once you get up to a million users, even if you have a 95 or 99% success rate, that's still like thousands or 10 thousands tens of thousands of people having like a really terrible experience like every day.

2:10:36

And this was actually part of the motivation why I started Dropbox.

2:10:40

Like step one was not like create Dropbox.

2:10:42

Step one was like use all these other services >> and like have all these near misses or or things were like wait >> um what happened to my like tax return?

2:10:51

It was just here a second ago. Where did it go?

2:10:52

And going into the support forums of these other competit like well these other companies, these other products that claim to do this on paper.

2:10:58

Um but then you go in the support forums and it's like a battlefield medical tent.

2:11:04

Like people are like, "Oh my god, what happened to my wedding photos and where's this and where's and I was like, I like can't believe that, you know, these things are so brittle.

2:11:11

Um, I'm going to be putting my most important stuff in here even just as a customer of one like me.

2:11:16

Like I need something that I can trust."

2:11:19

Um, and and then that took a lot more like engineering rigor and discipline >> um than we'd seen in the space.

2:11:27

>> We've been getting into barnyard analogies around here.

2:11:28

I want to take you through one and uh I'd love your feedback.

2:11:33

So uh we we we think about a lot of the a lot of the dynamics between the various players in enterprise software and foundation models as uh potentially mimicking the experience of a fox and a hen house.

2:11:46

And uh and it might be the job of the CEO of the hen house not to let the fox in the hen house.

2:11:54

And I'm wondering if that resonates with you at all in terms of uh if I'm a foundation model company, I say, "Hey, I'd love to provide a bunch of great AI tooling to my customers, your customers, both.

2:12:04

Uh I will need all of your data forever.

2:12:07

Uh and I will need, you know, to significantly erode your mode or your customer retention.

2:12:14

Like is the job of the CEO right now to protect the hen house or go on the attack and be more fox-like?

2:12:21

like how help me walk through this from your perspective.

2:12:27

>> Well, I mean I think when it comes to using AI, it depends.

2:12:28

I mean the first is um and it depends what your business is doing and and how you're using it and so on.

2:12:35

I think um I mean certainly the CEO's responsibility to like strategically position their company and mitigate risk and things like that.

2:12:41

Um but certainly every CEO is thinking about how do I like usefully deploy AI?

2:12:49

Um, and so I think it helps to have um an understanding of the technology.

2:12:53

I think it it's important to like know who you're working with and what their incentives are.

2:12:58

To your point, you know, hen houses like um you know, I think a lot of people have apprehension about using some of these or about working with the a foundation model company >> whose whole business revolves around like taking data and sort of grinding it up into pellets for training the next one.

2:13:15

and you know you watch Sora videos or whatever and you're like that comes from somewhere.

2:13:20

>> Yeah, >> probably not. They're artists.

2:13:20

Um >> so um so I think and you know certainly in our business that trust and privacy um >> and not having incentive conflicts of like not advertising, not training foundation models is super important as you know all of our customers think about you know who should we partner with.

2:13:38

So is there a little bit of a tension there where um you you need to keep customer trust high and let them know that uh we're going to get you these AI features but in the Dropbox way that is actually fully integrated and we're not just going to take your customer record or your data and sell it off the back of the truck uh just to pull something forward.

2:14:05

And that actually layers into like the customer experience.

2:14:08

Like you might be a couple months behind on a certain thing, but it's going to wind up with a better experience over time. Is that accurate? >> Yeah.

2:14:16

And I think it it's all the above.

2:14:18

I think it has to it starts with just like your business and your incentives.

2:14:23

Like you have to design some of this in from the beginning.

2:14:25

Like >> you know we could probably be make more money or be more profitable if we did advertising for example, right?

2:14:30

And so and a lot of scaled, you know, the predominant scaled business model on the internet for certainly for consumers is is advertising.

2:14:39

And we're like, you know, we're just going to draw a hard line.

2:14:42

We're never we're just not going to do that.

2:14:43

Um because of this trust conflict, you know, this incentive conflict we would have and even if we're even if our intentions are good, it's like customers just have to wonder, right?

2:14:53

And so um >> and then that becomes a big advantage because then we've been like living up to that for the last 18 years and we have a track record of What what is the specific concern if if you were running effectively display ads?

2:15:05

Is it privacy of like I don't want you to use my data to target me with more ads? >> Yeah.

2:15:13

And really this is up to our customers, not us.

2:15:15

It doesn't really matter what we think.

2:15:16

It really matters what they think.

2:15:17

And I think yeah, everybody feels a little weird when it's like um the equivalent of like, you know, even just like the TV in your living room if it starts showing you like if it's like a smart TV that showing starts showing you ads you didn't ask for.

2:15:30

you know, it's like, whoa, there's an invasion of privacy here.

2:15:34

Um, and so you have to be super sensitive to the psychology um of your users.

2:15:38

But I think at a more fundamental level, >> yeah, the other thing is like non-targeted.

2:15:43

>> I'm imagining I'm imagining the worst possible scenario that you were 100% not doing where the the file storage company edits ads into my files.

2:15:49

So, I'm like, wait a minute, I saved my high school transcript and now on page six of this PDF, they edited in an ad.

2:15:57

Well, the the other thing is like non-targeted ads are really frustrating because I I remember in college I bought a Kindle and there was an option.

2:16:06

It was like, do you want the ad supported?

2:16:09

>> I went with the ad supported.

2:16:09

This is a very Amazon move is to be like, okay, for $100 you can get the ad support >> or for 120 you can buy it.

2:16:16

And I'm a college student. >> I got the bougie one. I got the no ads one.

2:16:21

I so but but then I was getting like the the ads that that were that when I had this that were popular were like the most it was like romantic novels and stuff like that like books that I wasn't reading and so my channel would be sitting there and it be like >> just absorb my entire life so you can target me with something cool for once. Yeah. >> Uh interesting.

2:16:39

And and the other thing is I think you have to focus like you have to really be selective about the problems you solve and like figure about okay how do we take what we do today and build on that in a way in a way that makes sense for like today's context.

2:16:50

So for us I mean we always took care of your files these are already like your most important information but as we all know like what used to be 100 files on our desktops now 100 tabs in our browser.

2:17:00

>> Um and then the big a lot of the pain points we have are like you know instead of one search box or at home I can Google anything from one place search all of human knowledge.

2:17:07

I go to work, I've got like 10 different search boxes.

2:17:11

My experience is totally fragmented.

2:17:11

Um, and that's what I was living personally.

2:17:15

That's what my company's living.

2:17:15

That's what all of us are living.

2:17:17

I mean, look under my Zoom window.

2:17:18

It's all, you know, we're all dealing with the same thing.

2:17:21

>> And so, we're like, all right, let's extend AI into that new world in like a valuable way.

2:17:25

Let's give people that one search box.

2:17:27

Let's and then another problem with AI is that our industry is training these is spending trillions of dollars to train these models that can do like quantum physics but don't know about you know can't find your Q2 board tech >> and so and the missing link there is like AI these models can only be as smart as the context that you provide them.

2:17:46

Um, and that's really the bottleneck and like no one's focusing on that and we so that's why that's how like we have this new product Dropbox Dash um which really aims to close that context gap and finally connect your AI to to everything at work.

2:18:00

Uh, and so on the surface it's a AI assistant. It's a search engine.

2:18:05

It connects it knows about you.

2:18:07

It knows about your work.

2:18:07

It knows about your company.

2:18:08

It connects to all of your work apps.

2:18:10

Um, and unlike with a consumer AI tool or you know where there's a lot of questions, it can answer a lot of questions but a lot of questions it can't answer.

2:18:19

So if you ask like when does our office lease expire or where's that slide from last year's product launch chatbt can't tell you cuz it's not connected to your stuff and you know and then copilot doesn't know about your slack and Gemini doesn't know about your Salesforce and so that's where Dash comes in to build this like universal context layer.

2:18:35

Um, and the front end is really around search and and an AI assistant because that's what people understand.

2:18:40

Um, but here's but we're like this is a natural evolution for us.

2:18:44

Dropbox has always been about organizing and sharing your information or like organizing sharing your most important information, connecting to every ecosystem, um, being trusted, having this track record of reliability and security.

2:18:55

Okay, how can we what what is the manifestation of AI in our world that actually makes sense and where is there a new problem that hasn't been solved?

2:19:02

solved? I I think that's just like the perfect strategy for you right now because I that we had this like search was great and then we wound up generating so much data that search I personally not a judgment on you particularly but across all of my

2:19:16

services uh whether it's iMessage Gmail we talk about it all the time uh it's not to hate on you this is a n this is a technologywide thing uh search got really slow and and not as accurate and it would there were so many cookies that it was picking up like it would just get confused. And then we got like GPT5 deep

2:19:33

And then we got like GPT5 deep research like the thing that can go work for 20 minutes to get you exactly what you need and it's like okay now we need to actually bring these two things together and get really performance something in the middle and then size them and you see this with the model router in the in the consumer product but to actually bring something like this in the in the business context makes so much so much sense.

2:19:53

So, uh, I love that the pitch is not is not ASI for your documents, you know, it's like, >> yeah, I mean, we're excited about that too eventually.

2:20:04

But, you know, if that's, you know, in self-driving, they have like level five full autonomy, like totally self-driving, human out of the loop, >> but a lot of the commercial value gets created at like the level one, level two, like, all right, let's give people a working search box.

2:20:15

Let's actually give them AI that actually knows about their work.

2:20:19

Um these are going to be the big businesses that get built along the way to that you know super intelligence. >> Yep.

2:20:25

Zooming out uh and and kind of going away from what's happening at the product level like what is the what is your updated kind of strategy around running the business and capital allocation.

2:20:36

I know you're the single largest shareholder at somewhere around 20%.

2:20:40

You've been buying back a bunch of shares but like what is your what is like the the strategy and kind of pitch on on that front?

2:20:50

Well, mainly investing for growth.

2:20:50

I mean, Dropbox has always been a pretty profitable business.

2:20:53

I mean, we took a lot of the consumer internet playbook in the beginning and built these like self-s serve viral and productled um motion that was able to scale to millions of or you know, hundreds of millions of people, millions of businesses.

2:21:07

We have half a million paying businesses on Dropbox, 2 and a half billion in revenue.

2:21:10

Um, but you know, the the new Yeah, there we go.

2:21:16

Yeah, we got to hit the actual half billion of revenue >> creating productled growth.

2:21:22

>> We get we get excited about big numbers. >> The godfather.

2:21:24

Are you the godfather of productled growth? Is that fair to say?

2:21:29

>> I don't think I'm allowed to call myself any >> Okay.

2:21:30

Well, I'm allowed to call I'm calling you the godfather of productled growth. >> No. No.

2:21:34

I mean, if if if you if anyone listening is not familiar with the Dropbox playbook, like please go study it.

2:21:41

It is a clinic uh for for value creation. It's a fantastic story. >> Yeah.

2:21:46

And you know, we're doing that again.

2:21:47

again. We're running a lot of the same playbook with Dash and I talked a little about search and >> um and AI the sort of AI chat piece but we're also just thinking very fundamentally about like all the things we kind of lost as we went from kind of the file and PC world into the browser and the cloud and and it's not just search or AI there's even just the concept of organizing things as you were talking about people like somehow we all

2:22:08

got convinced that searching for things um is like uh a substitute for organizing things and it's just not really true in that you know all along the way we had um fi files have folders songs have playlist but you think like

2:22:24

links have right there's no like container like a collection >> of um there's no way to like have a collection of mixed format stuff if you have like a Google doc and a 10 gig 4K video and an air table um there's no way to still organize so we're we have

2:22:39

something called stacks uh probably about to show up on this video >> um that does that but yeah I mean just looking at these very basic basic problems hidden in plain sight and you know you give people a search box that

2:22:51

works let people talk to all their stuff in natural language organize their stuff for them you know go beyond documents to organize your images and videos um and so in a lot of ways I where I'm putting our capital is just building the version

2:23:05

of Dropbox that I would want to have today which is and Dash is step one in that direction >> yeah and there's I mean we've covered a number of companies that have been going after enterprise search and it feels like you were and many of them have been able to achieve pretty wild valuations um in a short period of time, but of course you're not asleep at the wheel thinking I don't I don't want to I don't want to dominate that market too. So

2:23:28

So it's it's it's awesome.

2:23:32

>> Well, and I think that the big thing our customers really want or or where Dash fits in there versus Glean or some other companies is like you don't have to spend 6 months and 50 grand to get started.

2:23:42

Um, and so one of the things we're launching today is like a truly self-s served version of Dash where you can just download it, get your team up and running um, link your apps and just go.

2:23:52

Uh, and that's something I think that's really been missing because there's a lot of, you know, there's a bit of a knife fight in the enterprise um, around a lot of different things, but then we look at any most of our customers and in the SMB segment or lower midm market is a huge swath of the market has no options.

2:24:07

Um, and so we think it took a lot longer because it's like hard to make these things totally self-s serve.

2:24:13

Um, but that's what we've done with Dash and and again it's sort of like it's the version of Dropbox I would build for today's context. >> Fantastic.

2:24:22

Um, we won't keep you any longer.

2:24:24

Obviously, you're very busy.

2:24:24

We really appreciate your >> congrats to the whole team on the launch. Appreciate it. We're super proud of it.

2:24:31

>> And uh, next time come on in person, come hang out in the Ultradome >> and put on a growth clinic.

2:24:34

I'm sure a lot of people would benefit from uh learning some of the some of the story because uh >> from the Godfather himself.

2:24:42

>> Yeah, it's a fantastic one. The Godfather.

2:24:43

Uh thanks so much for coming on the show.

2:24:46

We'll talk >> have a great >> We'll talk to you soon.

2:24:51

>> Up next, we have Adam Fry from Open AI. That rhymes. I like that.

2:24:54

The product lead for Chatbt Atlas.

2:24:56

We're diving into the browser wars.

2:24:59

uh the the uh the new web browser from uh OpenAI uh had a phenomenal response.

2:25:06

I don't know if you saw how many folks saw the YouTube video.

2:25:10

I think it has over a million views now.

2:25:12

Um but we will talk to Adam Fry about it.

2:25:17

>> Welcome to the stream, Adam. How are you doing? >> Welcome. >> Doing very well. Nice to meet you.

2:25:21

>> Busy busy couple days for you.

2:25:24

>> Yeah, it's been a bit of a whirlwind.

2:25:24

I think just like you said, there's been such a big outpour of a reaction.

2:25:27

And we're so excited to see the reaction and so excited that people get to use JPT Atlas.

2:25:32

Now, >> this is not GPU constrained at all, right?

2:25:36

Like I mean obviously it's like a it it interfaces with your core pool of GPUs, but it's not like a new like an entirely new provision of GPUs, right? >> Yeah, that's right.

2:25:48

So, you know, it's it's available to everyone.

2:25:50

So, Chacht Atlas, you can go to the download link, you can download it.

2:25:54

It's available free plus pro everyone. Sure.

2:25:58

>> You know, the agent part of it, which I know you guys are savvy about and we've talked to our colleagues before, you know, that is more compute intensive.

2:26:04

And so if you use some of the more advanced features of chatpt atlas where you ask chatp to go do things >> that can be more GPU uh intensive for our paid users for sure.

2:26:14

>> Uh is there an incentive to set people I saw a screenshot but you never know what's real anymore.

2:26:20

Uh that that if you set atlas as your default you can increase your chatbt subscription limits.

2:26:26

Is there some sort of incentive?

2:26:28

We were just talking to Drew from uh Dropbox about, you know, productled growth, how you actually, you know, increase customer adoption.

2:26:35

Is there something going on there that you can tell us about? >> For sure.

2:26:39

So, you know, chatbt Atlas is, you know, it's a browser and that's sort of at the core of what you do every day.

2:26:44

It's sort of your operating system for your life, uh, whether it's personal or at work.

2:26:48

And so, you know, part of that is we wanted to really, we felt like the more people use it, you sort of discover these AI features.

2:26:55

I think you guys have talked about this a lot in your show, but you know this new generation of browsers, there's a lot to discover.

2:27:00

You have to learn how to use chatbt in your normal workflow.

2:27:06

And so we've really wanted to incentivize to people to really give it a shot.

2:27:09

And the best part of these new browsers is using chatbt everywhere you go across the web.

2:27:14

And so one of the things that we did to start this off was if you give it a shot for a week as a default browser, you can sort of extend your limits and really allow you to test out all those AI features. >> That's cool.

2:27:25

Uh what what was uh was it always obvious that Chat GBT would would build a standalone browser or was there somewhat of a debate internally?

2:27:35

I always felt like Chat GBT was a web browser, right?

2:27:39

It felt like it was browsing the web on my behalf and serving it up in an interface.

2:27:43

And so it feels like it feels like this is the second browser that you guys are doing, but you're going >> such a good point.

2:27:53

You know, there's that great stat of, you know, if you ask people off the street, you know, what browser do you use?

2:27:58

Most people actually don't even know what browser that they use because the concept doesn't always make sense.

2:28:04

Y >> and so, you know, it wasn't obvious, but what it really started from was a very specific user insight.

2:28:08

You know, we were seeing, you know, you guys probably felt this when you use chatt, but you're on chatb chatbt. com.

2:28:14

You're in a million tabs.

2:28:17

You're doing a whole bunch of other stuff. You're in your docs.

2:28:19

You're you're planning for your next show, and you're like copying and pasting back and forth between chatbt and all the things you're doing. Yeah.

2:28:27

>> And so we just sort of sat back and said, you know, if CH chatbt is going to be more and more helpful for you over time, and people are going to rely on it more and more for the work that they do, for their personal life, it has to be able to coexist where you're doing that work.

2:28:41

And that that's what the browser is, is you know, where you're doing your work.

2:28:45

And so we said, how can we actually bring CHBT into that when you invite it in to actually have the context of what you're working on?

2:28:51

And I think that that spark of an insight was really once you believe that we were like oh yeah building Chachi Atlas is is of course we've got to do that.

2:29:01

>> What uh how how are you guys thinking about what success looks like with the product over the next few months?

2:29:05

product over the next few months? I think you have an immense amount of pressure obviously that the chat GBT retention data was flowing around the internet over the last over last and it's kind of hard to hard to fast follow that because if you set the bar you know

2:29:20

here but how how how are you thinking about it and how um >> uh and and then I kind of have a follow-up question around like you have >> hundreds of millions of happy active users that you can be porting over to Atlas over time but um maybe first like yeah what does success look like in the first uh weeks and months? >> Yeah, it's a great question. So the the

2:29:40

>> Yeah, it's a great question.

2:29:40

So the the start is we think of it as a multi-year journey, right?

2:29:43

People have been using browsers forever and you're probably your existing one you've been using for 10 20 years and so it's you know building a browser is sort of like we joke it's like uh you're moving around the furniture in someone's home.

2:29:55

You know you know exactly where this is, you know exactly where that is and so change is going to take time.

2:30:01

So we measure success over the long run.

2:30:02

We want to be as helpful to our users as possible.

2:30:04

But in the short term, you know, we're focused on retention.

2:30:08

You know, we're focused on for the people who are giving it a shot, which is a lot of people because people are really excited about this.

2:30:15

You know, are they sticking with it?

2:30:17

And, you know, are they loving it?

2:30:18

Are they sort of diving in deeper to using chat throughout, you know, as they browse the web to get advice on whatever they're working on as they go?

2:30:24

And if we see those signals, which we're starting to see, that's when we sort of, you know, pour on the fire and and and sort of grow it and grow it.

2:30:31

But so short-term retention, but we also understand this is this is a long-term game for browsers and you know we're investing heavily for a long time in it.

2:30:40

>> Are you thinking about a mobile version?

2:30:44

>> We are bringing experiences Atlas to mobile and to Windows and so the team is you know furiously working on it.

2:30:49

We want to bring it to as many people as we possibly can.

2:30:53

That's why we brought it to all of our free users, all of our paid, all of our pro right away globally. Yeah.

2:30:59

>> Um we think we've got a great browser.

2:31:01

We're really excited for people to keep using it. >> Very fun.

2:31:02

Yeah, it's going to be uh big shoes to fill since Sora rocketed straight to the top of the app store when you go when you go live on there.

2:31:10

I'm sure it'll be >> I think I think add Adam Adam can take it to the top again. >> I love it. >> I'm a believer.

2:31:15

>> Yeah, I I I I love the framing of it being like a longer a longer journey.

2:31:20

Like it just does seem like uh there's not going to be like the Sam Alman stealing GPUs moment for the browser where it just goes viral and everyone's like I got to check this out, right?

2:31:30

it's very hard to like accelerate something that's a productivity tool.

2:31:34

And so having that mindset um makes a ton of sense.

2:31:37

I'm wondering about new new patterns, new language, new archetypes of features that uh we might be talking about in a few years after this all rolls out.

2:31:50

if you see any glimpses of this.

2:31:51

glimpses of this. The thing that I'm thinking about is I was talking uh to someone on our team about Chrome extensions and I was thinking about what the extension looks like in the future and if there's some sort of like I've I've prompted an agent to do a certain

2:32:07

workflow so many times that then it kind of collapses it into some UI and it places it somewhere in the browser and it's like it's almost writing like the custom software like there's you see I'm kind of like painting a bunch of splatter on the canvas But there's something there. How do you think about

2:32:22

How do you think about like these new patterns?

2:32:24

How much will your thumb be on the scale or do you want the community to customize things?

2:32:31

Like where does the line draw and how are you thinking about that? >> Yeah.

2:32:34

So there's probably three three big things when I look forward a couple years that I'm really excited about.

2:32:37

So the first is, you know, part of this Atlas launch was the agent in your browser where where it can take action. It brings up a cursor. It does things for you.

2:32:46

>> I'm really excited for that as it gets better.

2:32:48

So, it's still early research preview, but it's starting to do tasks where we've seen it actually be helpful in a short amount of time.

2:32:53

And I'm really excited for proactivity around that.

2:32:56

Eventually, you can actually suggest, hey, I've already drafted five emails for you. What do you think?

2:33:03

>> You don't even have to task it.

2:33:03

And so, there's this sort of proactive world of the agents that I think is going to be really really interesting and valuable for folks.

2:33:10

>> The second is working with developers.

2:33:10

>> The second is working with developers. I think you know as it's more computerto computer interaction if you have an agent that you're delegating to to go you know write a document or go to a website those websites will evolve to work better with a software that is actually going and clicking around and

2:33:26

we just are sort of scratching the surface we're teaching these computers to click around the way that we have but I think eventually the internet and website will evolve to co-work with agents to make things more productive for everyone and then the third is you know I think eventually models will be really good to create their own sort of applications within the browser. And so

2:33:45

And so I think there's so many amazing places that this is going to go and this is just sort of the beginning of this journey.

2:33:54

And I think to Jord's point earlier, chatbt is already so retentive.

2:33:58

If you can bring chatbt into the browser like we have with Atlas today, it's already going to be so helpful to your life and then it's just going to get better from there.

2:34:07

>> Yeah, you guys need to figure out >> you share any numbers with us.

2:34:08

Well, you got to we got to I was going to say like >> the number of YouTube videos.

2:34:12

>> I think I think the uh you know the the most recent comp that we have to like a scaled consumer tech company launching an ambitious product in a super competitive market was was Meta launching Threads. >> Yeah.

2:34:27

And when there's this early excitement around a product, you can see, you know, massive amount of like downloads and then people were ready to call threads, you know, basically say like, okay, it's over.

2:34:37

Like good, nice, good effort basically.

2:34:39

And then Meta figured out kind of the right um flow to get people to, >> you know, cultivate like a unique community there, get people moving over there consistently.

2:34:49

And so I I would expect to see something similar out of Atlas.

2:34:55

And that I think a lot of downloads and excitement and usage early some people will churn but you have that massive base of users that you can continue to you know show them like if they do the right prompt in chat GBT it's like you know I can do this on your behalf over here if you like if if if you'd like.

2:35:12

So >> excited to see how this plays out.

2:35:16

>> Yeah and I think the key thing there is focus too and investment and you know I get to speak on behalf of the team that's working on this but they're over there working on it right now just making it better and better.

2:35:24

So if you stick with it and you look at the small signals, the small paper cuts that people are telling you about.

2:35:29

We just keep filling them, keep getting better, it's that's when your retention goes up.

2:35:34

That's when people really enjoy your product.

2:35:35

So you know, the launch is one thing.

2:35:36

We couldn't be more excited.

2:35:36

The reception to your question has been immense.

2:35:39

Lots of downloads, but uh not sharing any numbers today. Okay.

2:35:43

>> But uh you know, it's really about do people stick around and and we have to keep working on that to earn that from people. >> Yeah, totally. Makes no sense.

2:35:50

>> Well, we'll hit the gong once you're charting. >> Okay. Okay.

2:35:52

I I was ready to go to YouTube. Thank you so much.

2:35:55

I mean, >> thanks for breaking it down and congratulations on on the launch. >> Yeah, this is great.

2:36:01

>> Thank you guys for having me on. It's it's such a blast. Appreciate it. Awesome. >> Always a great time. We'll talk to you soon. >> Cheers.

2:36:06

>> Um, our next guest is Ian Rogers from Ledger.

2:36:08

He believes he's already in the reream waiting room. >> Ryan in the chat. I have to address it.

2:36:13

Well, Taylor says he laughs and says it's a good chromium rapper, sir.

2:36:17

>> I think uh I think big things have small beginnings.

2:36:20

>> Big Chromium rapper company of California.

2:36:22

Um, no, I think I I I think that they have the incredible advantage of being able to have, you know, a massive user base and get people over there, continue to iterate, and um, it just, >> you know what, you know what else is crazy?

2:36:35

I mean, the VS Code story like like the the browser wars look a lot a lot less crazy when you think about what happened to VS Code.

2:36:42

Open source code editor, you get Windurf, you get uh, Cursor, like people really did build serious businesses off of those.

2:36:49

Anyway, we can talk about that more later.

2:36:50

For now, we have Ian Rogers from Ledger in the Reream wedding room.

2:36:56

Let's bring him into the TV Ultra Jam.

2:36:57

How are you doing >> having him? Welcome. >> I'm good.

2:37:00

How are you guys at night here in Paris?

2:37:04

>> Oh, thank you so much.

2:37:05

>> You're looking uh looking quite sharp in that jacket, too. >> You look great.

2:37:09

>> You know, I was thinking I was like, "Wow, I well, I just came from we've had a big day today and there's a party happening at the Ledger offices, and I just came from that.

2:37:15

So, this is what I was wearing, and I'm like, wait, I'm in my living room.

2:37:18

Should I put my pajamas on?

2:37:19

what's what's appropriate here.

2:37:19

But, you know, you guys are always dressed sharp, so I thought, you know what?

2:37:23

I'll just keep the I'll just keep the jacket on.

2:37:25

Well, you know, even though it feels a little out of place in my living room, I got to be honest.

2:37:30

>> I did not think that this week we'd be talking to someone in Paris about security.

2:37:34

Tell us what Ledger does.

2:37:34

How are you going to say, are we going to store my valuables reliably?

2:37:42

>> Not focus on royal jewels, unfortunately.

2:37:44

Otherwise, we may not have.

2:37:45

>> By the way, by the way, I had I had coffee uh at at Ledger with a number two from the Louve last Tuesday morning was asking him like, you know, you know, what's it like to tell me about the job?

2:37:55

And God, it's, you know, pretty pretty mellow, long-term, we think long-term horizons, these sort of things.

2:38:01

>> Wow, that that job got got a lot more interesting. Uh it did. It did over the weekend. But anyway, uh yeah.

2:38:05

Uh how how do you introduce the company now?

2:38:07

Give us the general update.

2:38:11

So, Ledger's been around for um 11 years, which is a very long time in in the world of crypto, but really always doing the same thing.

2:38:17

Um, you know, it started with this this simple idea that we have these amazing devices, phones and computers, but they were meant to share information, not protect value, you know, fundamentally.

2:38:28

And if we're going to have digital value in our lives, and if especially if kind of the main invention of this new digital value, Bitcoin, etc.

2:38:36

, is permissionless money.

2:38:39

>> Well, then you have self- custody and if self- custody then security is paramount.

2:38:43

So let's let's you know use secure element chips to protect private keys.

2:38:49

Um and that you know that started with with really one purpose Bitcoin but you know then we've had much more cryptocurrency but actually the fact is you can use that same device to to secure anything.

2:39:00

So pass keys, identity, um you know we live increasingly digital lives and proof is increasingly important um and therefore security.

2:39:09

So the other interesting thing about the way it if you think about it the technology and where it comes from it's this smart card technology.

2:39:17

So it's the same chip that's in your credit card or your passport but where your credit card protects the secrets of the bank and your passport protects the secrets of the government right from you because you have it in your possession.

2:39:28

You're not supposed to hack it.

2:39:29

Um, this is using that same technology to um to protect the secrets of the user or of the consumer.

2:39:36

Um, which is pretty powerful.

2:39:38

Um, especially I mean I I was listening to to your interview about OpenAI going into a world of agentic AI.

2:39:45

>> We will need to prove our humanness.

2:39:45

It would be nice if we could own our own preferences and then, you know, federate them to the apps that we use.

2:39:52

And I'm not sure I want to shove my credit card into that agent.

2:39:55

I'd rather it asked me, you know, before it booked the flight, you know, like here's the info.

2:39:59

Do you would you like to verify this transaction on a secure screen? Yes, I would. Thank you.

2:40:04

You know, so it's um it's that.

2:40:06

And today we we announced a new a new product, but that's what we've been doing for a few years now. >> Yeah.

2:40:12

What's what's the different about the new product?

2:40:14

I feel like ledgers like it feels like something where it's like great idea solved.

2:40:19

Uh, and so I'm interested to know what's happening with like with the iteration cycle. >> Yeah.

2:40:27

So, we have this product that people are very familiar with, the Ledger Nano, which is it's just like the swivel, it folds out.

2:40:32

You you've you've seen it.

2:40:34

Um, which you know, and if if when it's kind of the Air Jordan of of crypto, like if somebody needs a physical representation of crypto, they they include a picture of the >> of the ledger in it.

2:40:43

But with with Tony Fidel, who is, you know, the the the founder of the the podf father.

2:40:47

He created the iPod and co-invented the iPhone and founded Nest.

2:40:54

>> Um, I mean, you guys will appreciate this.

2:40:55

When I started this job, I told Tony, I said, "Yeah, I'm going to run the consumer business for Ledger."

2:40:58

And he said, "There is no consumer business.

2:41:02

That business is business to geek.

2:41:02

You know, your job is to >> make a consumer business." Right?

2:41:05

And so, um, we we started making these secure touchscreen devices.

2:41:11

So he designed one that's beautiful.

2:41:13

It's called Ledger Stacks.

2:41:15

It's the world's first curved e- in display.

2:41:17

Um so where a Kindle screen is silicon on glass.

2:41:22

This is an organic substrate on plastic and you get this this like >> 5mm curve and you know it's Tony.

2:41:26

He he can envision the the circuit board and and the billboard at the same time.

2:41:32

Um, but that that screen first ever and first product to have an organic TFT took longer than we thought and the screen ended up costing more than we thought and then the product is in market for a higher price than we had hoped for.

2:41:48

So we we built a um that was that's that retails at 399 >> and then we built another one that's a a beautiful device called Ledger Flex steel case um really nice e- in screen but that clocked in at $2. 49 49.

2:42:00

And what we really wanted to do was to do this secure touchscreen but at the at the price of a Nano X which is which is you know one of our most popular models of all time.

2:42:13

So this is the one that we introduced today.

2:42:14

This is this is the Ledger.

2:42:17

>> This this is the uh Nano Gen 5.

2:42:17

Um and this is on sale today for 179.

2:42:22

Um so here you can see what the you know what the box looks like.

2:42:27

M >> um and that so that's what we that's what we did today.

2:42:31

what we did today. The other thing we did today is announced a bunch of features in the software because really I mean you know the point kind of to the point you were making earlier it's not about hardware it's about what can you do with it you know and and you know

2:42:44

this these these devices they started as one thing this long-term investment asset you know Bitcoin that was what it was for but now you it's all assets because it's you know tokeno tokenized you know rwas tokenized stocks um it's also So, you know, a a yieldbearing savings account with stable coins these days. And um it's a spending account as

2:43:05

And um it's a spending account as well because we have a a credit card that's a well, it's actually a a debit card, a crypto debit card that pays Bitcoin rewards. So, it's so much more.

2:43:15

You know, you can do we support 10,000 tokens, you know, 100% of the top 100 um tokens.

2:43:22

So, it's really u you know, it's a it's it's a financial tool in your in your in your pocket and a secure one, which is which your phone is not. talk a little bit more.

2:43:32

Uh yeah, I love I love how many different like really thinking about the full suite and just building these like purpose-built devices for different use cases.

2:43:39

devices for different use cases. talk about I guess more you mentioned earlier if you have agents operating in the world on your behalf specifically online like how how you guys are thinking and kind of even timeline there because I think uh this is top of mind for a lot of people that are realizing like okay

2:43:57

I'm going to have a browser that's not just like a window into the web and a way for me to enter into forms but it'll be acting on my behalf and if it's going to be like moving money or doing anything else or or submitting getting my information somewhere like I want to have more you know real control over that. So I guess wanted to kind of hear

2:44:14

So I guess wanted to kind of hear more about how you guys are thinking about that opportunity in the context of ledgers business. >> Yeah.

2:44:22

I mean I I guess the way I think about this I think about it all in context right what what was the internet really two computers could talk to each other we get this revolution of information. What is um blockchain?

2:44:30

Well blockchain is the ability to um to issue and trade really right.

2:44:38

and trade really right. So I can and I can I can we talk about scarcity but it's really about issuance and and trading you know the kind of what's the the core building block and then you know with with AI we have you know super intelligence and ultimately things that

2:44:52

we can delegate tasks to that will act on our behalf but if they're going to act on our behalf then they have to represent us out there right um and also when we're interacting with other people we need to know who it is we're interacting with um and you know so also I think those those things need to you know, machine readable. So,

2:45:09

So, interestingly, in both cases, you're talking about tokens, right?

2:45:14

We're talk we talk about eating tokens in the case of AI and we talk about issuing tokens um in the case of in the case of crypto, but what we're really talk what we mean when we say those things is we're talking about things that are machine readable and machine translatable.

2:45:25

Um, so I think that, you know, I think proof is actually a really important word to consider here.

2:45:32

Um, you know, how do you know this is me talking?

2:45:35

How do you know these are the words that are coming out of this microphone?

2:45:38

I think proof is going to become increasingly important.

2:45:42

We already have it and a lot of a lot of companies are like trying to take this challenge head on.

2:45:46

You know, Reddit uh is trying to to to know that someone's not a bot on the other side.

2:45:49

Um you know, dating sites, uh Match.

2:45:52

com has a big effort to try to know that someone's So, how exactly are you doing that?

2:45:56

And um you know, and who are you trusting?

2:46:01

So, I think trust brokers will become pretty important in the future.

2:46:03

Um, you know, like if I had I I could um if I said like, "Ah, yeah, here's a here's a a Warhol print."

2:46:10

And you'd be like, "Okay, well, maybe it is."

2:46:12

You know, but if Christiey's said it's a Warhol, you'd be like, "Yeah, it probably is.

2:46:16

They probably did the work."

2:46:17

And that that's the same thing that we have in our lives with things like driver's licenses.

2:46:20

You know, it's um it's difficult to get a driver's license.

2:46:24

It's easy to read one, you know, and I think we'll have we'll have a lot of those kinds of things where there's a trust broker.

2:46:29

that trust broker will issue a token that says, you know, not only am I a human, but I'm a unique human.

2:46:35

This this token matches, you know, matches a passport, one passport, not multiple passports.

2:46:39

And then, you know, and then a machine readable way in a machine readable way, you know, we'll be able to kind of do a handshake where it's like, oh yeah, that's a real person.

2:46:48

And you could use that in, you know, any context, Twitter, YouTube, um, or X, YouTube, etc. , right?

2:46:55

And so I I think that these kinds of you know this is this is like the super basic version.

2:46:59

You know the more the only slightly more complex version is that agent that they were talking about earlier in my browser.

2:47:05

You know it's going to go book me a flight to Miami.

2:47:10

>> Well how have I given it my Delta login?

2:47:12

Did I give it my credit card information?

2:47:14

Like you know right now we live in this world where kind of our identity is locked behind all of these login password combinations across thousands of websites.

2:47:26

>> Um there's no need for that.

2:47:26

That can all of that data could be owned by the individual just like we own you know our passport, our driver's license and and other things and then it's federated to those applications as needed.

2:47:39

>> It's really a much it's it's more scalable. It's more secure.

2:47:41

It's a It's a much better and and it's less trust, you know.

2:47:46

I think we're already, you know, I mean, I I haven't installed the OpenAI browser yet, and I'm like, "Wow, do I really They've already got so much." >> I have an idea. I have an idea. >> Bring it.

2:47:57

>> A a giant gong that you can store Bitcoin. >> What about that? >> What about that?

2:48:03

A massive gong >> that you keep in your vault in your basement and you can store Bitcoin on it.

2:48:10

>> You can smash it every time you want You could actually probably just sneak a little Ledger Nano up in the gong and that would work fine.

2:48:17

>> But I want I was holding back.

2:48:17

I was ready to tell you guys. I was ready to tell. >> Yeah. Give us some numbers. What you got?

2:48:23

>> I was going to say approximately 20% of all crypto is protected by Ledger devices.

2:48:26

I thought that was >> Yes.

2:48:29

>> I was like, what can I give you that's worthy of a gong? And uh >> that's insane. Fantastic.

2:48:35

>> You guys probably Yeah, you got two two hits.

2:48:37

Uh >> we're we're running over time.

2:48:39

Last last thing I wanted to ask, how what's the Parisian crypto scene like?

2:48:42

It sounds cool >> and you seem really cool, but uh but what what's what's it like on the ground? >> Thanks.

2:48:51

I have to say the ledger party tonight was crazy.

2:48:53

I barely from there because there were just people in the street, you know, going, "Can I get in?"

2:48:59

Um no, it's it really it's interesting here.

2:49:01

I moved here 10 years ago.

2:49:01

I moved here 10 years ago to work for LVMH and a lot I mean I really you know I moved to LA in '95 and it felt you know like it was a million miles away from Silicon Valley at that time. You know what I mean?

2:49:13

But then over time it it kind of grew into something that you know we we had a MySpace, we had a Snapchat, we had a you know like it LA kind of came into its own and I you feel the same thing here over 10 years you know like it's uh it's still France and France is not America when it comes to startups that's for sure.

2:49:31

Um, but they've they've really I mean it's it's uh there's so much going on here. It's really fun. Get over here. Let's do this.

2:49:37

We we you know we'll give you the we'll give you the proper tool. >> I refuse. I refuse.

2:49:40

I'm not I'm not leaving won't leave our borders.

2:49:44

But I I will I'll take you up on that. >> Okay. Come. Yeah. Come on over anytime.

2:49:50

>> Does John have a passport? >> He does. >> Unfortunately, yes. >> Yeah, he does.

2:49:54

But he >> Otherwise, I could say no to every international invitation.

2:49:57

>> You go, John, come over here.

2:49:57

We got we got seas and lakes and mountains.

2:49:59

He's like, "We got Season Lakes and Mountains over here." >> Yeah. >> Yeah.

2:50:04

>> Do they got the Indianapolis 500 over there?

2:50:07

>> Do they got the Kentucky Derby over there? >> No.

2:50:08

I am, by the way, I am I am from Indiana.

2:50:11

>> And uh and and and you can and this I'll give you a fun fact.

2:50:14

Kid Rock is on record saying the only reason I would go to France is to visit Ian. So maybe John, you come. >> Oh, that's lore. >> That's deep lore. >> That's deep lore. >> Amazing.

2:50:23

>> Ian, great to meet you.

2:50:23

Uh, congrats to the whole team on on the launch and uh, thank you for having us.

2:50:27

Securing 20% of all digital assets. >> Yes.

2:50:31

Thank you for your service.

2:50:33

>> Uh, we'll talk to you soon. Have a good day. >> All right. We'll see you again.

2:50:36

>> Our next guest, Molly from Knox, is already in the reream waiting room.

2:50:39

We're going to bring her in and ask her how she's going to let you interface with both iMessage and WhatsApp at the same time. Do I have that correct? >> Yes, you do.

2:50:51

>> So, this is like a total moonshot company.

2:50:52

This is harder than colonizing Mars.

2:50:55

This is trying to get Tim Cook and Mark Zuckerberg to play nice.

2:50:57

I I How are you possibly going to pull this off?

2:51:02

>> Yeah, message interoperability has been one of the problems that just people have talked about for a while.

2:51:05

I think um the way that we do it is we have this insight where if you layer onto people's computers and you don't distribute within the app store, we have more interesting things that you could do.

2:51:16

And so it's actually possible to do um exactly what we want to do here, which is connect iMessage and WhatsApp together. Yeah.

2:51:21

So, I imagine that like if I was super super hardcore, I could have like a Mac Mini that's running with literally iMessage and WhatsApp open and an agent that's clicking and screen scraping and uploading to a database and then surfacing that in an app.

2:51:36

And it's going to be very hard for WhatsApp and and iMessage to like shut me down if I'm doing that.

2:51:42

But that's a very proumer uh >> you need your own computer.

2:51:45

Um, how far are you from there to Yeah. the actual product?

2:51:52

>> What's interesting is the first version of the product was effectively a cloud server that we would ask people to log in.

2:51:59

So, give us their iCloud details. Sure.

2:52:01

>> Um, to log into, which you know, Trey has a funny story about this.

2:52:04

Um, but at a certain point, I think you realize that it's it's just not the most effective and the right way to do it.

2:52:12

It's not the the perfect answer.

2:52:12

And so because it feels inelegant, um there's a better way, which is what you described.

2:52:18

Um essentially, if you can insert mouse clicks and be indistinguishable from a human from the OS level, so Apple can't tell that you're a human versus you're automating your computer, it's over. It's like, okay, great.

2:52:28

That's where you want to be.

2:52:30

So, uh we've thought a lot about that question and yeah, certainly some of the features um sort of play with that aspect.

2:52:38

Uh I mean do you have to like message the proumer nature?

2:52:44

Do you think that there's a world where you can get big enough that then you exert enough leverage over the platforms that they have to play nice with you?

2:52:52

Like is that the long-term goal to be able to walk into Certino and Menllo Park and say like look like there are going to be millions of people that are upset if you shut off my API access so let's make this easier for everyone. >> Yeah.

2:53:06

I think we already see it moving in one direction with RCS.

2:53:08

Um it's probably going to continue moving that way. Yeah.

2:53:12

So that would be amazing.

2:53:12

Um on the proumer thing, I think it just comes down to regulation and rights and what you can lobby for.

2:53:18

So yeah, >> and there's >> how solid how important do you think iMessage is to Apple's like position because recently we've just come to this like weird realization that it's like my my it's my number one social network.

2:53:33

It's like how I plan my social life, my family life, my friends.

2:53:35

I'm sure you're the same way.

2:53:37

I have group chats with business friends.

2:53:38

Uh, and all the social platforms are like where I consume news and content and like people that are like friendly acquaintances, but mostly like my social network is iMessage.

2:53:48

And that feels like they're going to be able to charge whatever they want for me to keep that every year when they release a new iPhone.

2:53:56

So, do you do you buy that thesis as well that it's very important to Apple's position in the market?

2:54:00

I think it's hands down the most important factor as to why people are buying iPhones because no one wants to be the icky green bubble in the group chat where all of a sudden nothing works in the group chat and things are delayed and just disgustingly, you know, designed.

2:54:15

So, at a certain point, you don't want to be that guy.

2:54:18

So, you just herd mentality and sheep into buying an iPhone.

2:54:21

iPhone. But I think a larger point here is >> I think a larger point here is it's it's just like when you receive a blue bubble from someone there's already this preemptive >> okay another is wait so we're trying to

2:54:38

build out the ultimate analogy for tech because you have you have the trough the slop trough you have people who are goated uh but then you have people who are sheep and so like you you you just helped us create a new link in the chain and the the diagram. But anyway, sorry. But anyway, sorry.

2:54:55

>> Goats need sheep, you know. >> Yes.

2:54:59

What is a goat without a sheep to contrast with? >> Sorry.

2:55:02

Um, how's the actual product launch going?

2:55:05

The rollout, are you in beta?

2:55:07

Is it handholding customers on or general availability? >> It's really good. Yeah.

2:55:11

So, it's general availability.

2:55:13

Anyone can download it right now.

2:55:14

Um, at least on Mac and then if they want iOS, they can request access through me.

2:55:18

So um we have been getting a lot of people today just going on the onboarding experience is mind-blowing.

2:55:24

It just tells you your life uh recounted through you through you know all the conversations and and top people that you've met.

2:55:30

Um, and what's funny is I was texting Ben before this, um, trying to coordinate like logistics and >> I found out that my messages suddenly turned green and it was because I hit a quota limit because this morning I sent out I think 3,000 messages to people >> all in my one-on-one group chats like, "Hey guys, can you help me, you know, post about this and and help me support here?"

2:55:55

And yeah, so I guess I re realized what the ceiling is on on um >> on the rate limit.

2:55:59

Oh, that's always a good sign.

2:56:02

>> I'm wondering if I'm going to get limited on my my inbox.

2:56:04

I have 5,04 unread texts right now.

2:56:10

>> One of our friends uh one of our friends will manifest for uh Bloomberg for private markets and he kind of outlined it as uh iMessage plus signal and axe and Twitter as the main ones.

2:56:23

So, uh, have you thought about that and what what what are the, uh, what are the nuances of like how hostile each API is, basically is what I'm looking for, like a state of the state of affairs.

2:56:34

>> Yeah, I saw I think it was Will's tweet.

2:56:36

I saw it and I thought it was interesting on our road map.

2:56:38

We have Slack and Discord, uh, maybe email or a few other uh, messaging platforms.

2:56:44

But I think the the big thing is actually 80% of your messages come through.

2:56:50

It's not an equivalence, right?

2:56:51

like 2020 2020 it's like mostly people are on one thing and then they'll text this secondary platform for a specific group of people in a niche and then another maybe 5% of the time and so um I get the sense that it's it's mostly okay to just focus on iMessage and WhatsApp right now and then you can add integrations later or even have the community help you build these integrations.

2:57:12

Um but there are private APIs and I mean Telegram API it's easy and some other ways that you can Yeah. >> Yeah.

2:57:20

I I I I really do wonder about that because it feels like >> Yeah.

2:57:24

to me to me to me it feels like the more platforms you add obviously the more valuable it is because at two >> like I I probably get >> 80% of my texts on iMessage 10% or maybe 5% on WhatsApp 5% signal.

2:57:40

>> No, it's definitely a power law.

2:57:40

Like iMessage is the most important.

2:57:41

What I wouldn't even put WhatsApp I would put WhatsApp like fourth or fifth for me personally.

2:57:47

It would go iMessage, then probably XDMs, then maybe Instagram DMs, then WhatsApp, then I would even put Signal above WhatsApp.

2:57:55

But the point is is that like uh like a one app to rule them all, like if it's going to be a standard in my life, that's like the one unifying interface.

2:58:02

Like I want it to be across everything.

2:58:05

I think the the control plane, but I don't know, there's a lot of w with all these like unified personal assistance stuff.

2:58:12

There's a lot of uh you know, expressed preferences versus revealed preferences, like people might actually use it a different way than they say they want to use it.

2:58:20

Um, but I don't know, it's going to be a fun fun building process for you. So, I'm very excited.

2:58:26

>> Yeah, it's it'll be cool to see the longitudinal access come in too, right?

2:58:30

Because like our thread on X will be different from our thread on email will be different from our thread on iMessage.

2:58:34

If you can just solve that problem of context coming in from all these different places, um that would be huge for both people and companies.

2:58:40

So, it's going to be really exciting.

2:58:43

>> Have you learned anything from the previous attempts at this like the beepers of the world?

2:58:48

>> Um yeah, you definitely don't want to poke the bear and do the thing that feels not right and inelegant for too long.

2:58:54

Uh I think the first launch we had which was sort of a semi-private beta launch in February um we had a lot of people come on and uh tell us hey Apple's watching and you know maybe would have issues with iMessage.

2:59:07

Um, I think the main thing is just be nimble and agile and when APIs change that we know that have changed, we just automatically update right day of four hours later a new build is out.

2:59:18

And so nothing really breaks as long as you uh are on the system all the time. >> Keep shipping.

2:59:25

>> I mean, 4 hours in text message land is a long time for some people if they're like, I didn't get the message from my wife that I need to pick up the kids or something like that.

2:59:35

does seem like a tall order, but uh that's why they invented 996 or 002 as the Wall Street Journal put it more recently, which is basically >> I I think uh everyone everyone everyone has this problem.

2:59:50

It's very hard to create an elegant solution, but if you do it, it will be incredibly valuable. >> Yeah.

2:59:55

Well, uh good luck to you.

2:59:55

I don't know if we lost the video, but thank you so much for stopping by.

3:00:00

Uh we will talk to you soon and have a great rest of your day. >> Congratulations.

3:00:04

Sorry, that that was kind of a crazy ending, but we have Johnny Dwire from uh Muan Space, his second time on the show.

3:00:12

Um, and we had a great we actually played a clip from our previous interview yesterday.

3:00:16

Uh, and we're very excited to talk to him both about what's going on in his world, but uh I'll welcome him to the show now.

3:00:24

How are you doing, Johnny? >> Good to see you. >> Hey, guys.

3:00:27

Good to see you guys again. Welcome back. >> Thanks so much.

3:00:29

We enjoyed the we we we enjoyed the previous uh guest segment immensely.

3:00:35

We played a clip from that segment yesterday and we were trying to yeah we were trying to contextualize space data centers.

3:00:41

Um we're actually having the founder of the space data center company come back on the show uh to defend what's going on since a lot of people are skeptical.

3:00:50

Where do you sit on it now?

3:00:51

This all feels like I'm not ready to call it even a binary.

3:00:55

I I think we should be discussing timelines more than will it ever happen.

3:01:00

But how are you thinking about space data center?

3:01:04

>> Yeah, I mean I think it's it's it's a like many things it's a when not if.

3:01:06

Um you know is it a year from now? Is it 10 years from now? Is it 20 years from now? I don't know.

3:01:12

But I think if you think about generally the future of the planet and where we're going on it, more and more stuff is going to move to space and um so I think it's inevitable at some level that we will have large scale, you know, IT infrastructure in space.

3:01:26

I mean, you know, we're probably going to talk about our deal with Starlink in a minute, and that's an example of a place where I think we're starting to really see what I would call truly modern IT infrastructure starting to show up in space.

3:01:38

And and I think it's inevitable that data centers will go there as well.

3:01:42

A lot depends, I think, obviously, on the fundamentals of what is going to drive the need for future data center capacity, right?

3:01:48

And how some of those needs are met, uh, you know, on on on Earth and and then and how that would compare to deploying things in space.

3:01:55

I think if you ask anybody even, you know, what a terrestrial data center will look like in 5 years, they're probably not going to give you a real confident answer.

3:02:04

So, I think, you know, trying to predict exactly what that's going to look like in space is hard to do right now. >> Absolutely.

3:02:10

What uh yeah, what what more can you say about the this new partnership? >> Well, yeah.

3:02:17

I mean, I think, you know, one of the things we like to think we're uh we're doing at Yuon is really uh pulling a lot of the aerospace industry uh kicking and screaming out of the stone age.

3:02:25

Um, and you know, you think about a lot of the stuff that's circling the earth right now and and uh it's still connected with things that look like dialup modems, frankly.

3:02:32

I mean, I think we're we're kind of in an era where a lot of the space technologies a few generations behind what we take for granted on Earth.

3:02:39

Um, and this partnership with SpaceX is now going to give our satellites things that look a lot more like a a an always on fiber or broadband connection uh rather than a dial-up connection.

3:02:49

And so that's going to completely unlock you know a tremendous set of things that have been very difficult or impossible to do um in space historically much as you know Starlink has demonstrated with terrestrial use cases.

3:03:01

Um you know an example that I'm you know we're all very excited about at Nuon is uh we've been working on this global wildfire constellation for the last several years.

3:03:10

This will eventually be a 50 plus satellite constellation that will get 20-minute global uh revisit latency to detect and and track wildfires at the from the earliest stages of their life cycle all the way through uh to help you know decision makers on the ground make better decisions.

3:03:24

And a really critical piece of making that system work well is getting that data back to people that are making decisions at very low latency.

3:03:31

These satellites produce enormous amounts of data.

3:03:34

There's going to be 50 of them.

3:03:35

So having this kind of fiber connection in the sky is absolutely transformative in terms of being able to deliver um a capability that's crucially needed around the world and it has not been possible to date.

3:03:45

So I think it's a really good example of uh what this technology can unlock.

3:03:51

>> Is fiber a metaphor or are you physically putting fiber in the sky somehow?

3:03:55

I mean, people are putting data.

3:03:57

We have big glass spools and we're kind of unwinding them behind.

3:04:00

>> I mean, we're going to put data massive 1 gig data centers in space.

3:04:03

Like, I wouldn't be that doesn't sound that crazy.

3:04:06

>> Put a humanoid up there with a spool. >> Exactly.

3:04:09

So, so, so, so you're not you're not literally putting fiber in the sky.

3:04:13

Uh, it's more about connectivity between Starlink satellites or are you putting up your own satellites that are acting as kind of backall between the Starling satellites?

3:04:23

>> We're basically using Starlink as our back haul.

3:04:25

So you can think about them as sort of our network in the sky and then we'll be connecting with SpaceX lasers or laser terminals they call mini lasers into their network and using that network as kind of the back hall system.

3:04:36

So it's not literally unwinding glass fire this guy but actually the technology is very similar to fiber optic you know technology on on Earth and a lot of the same componentry is used.

3:04:46

We're just thinning the light over these kind of free space optical beams not over glass fibers.

3:04:51

>> And then and then who's your customer?

3:04:54

Is it someone who's who has a satellite or a constellation in space that needs to move internet data around while in space or is it more for speed up terrestrial uses in some way or or just include the Starlink network?

3:05:08

>> So, we're building satellites for customers.

3:05:10

So, our satellites, you know, sort of broad range of customers.

3:05:12

One, you know, one of the customers I I mentioned is this there's a global nonprofit that's funding the work on the fire mission.

3:05:19

So, ultimately we're we're building satellites for them.

3:05:20

their muon satellites that we deploy and operate.

3:05:24

Um, and this will now provide sort of a much faster, lower latency network layer for us to operate those satellites on.

3:05:30

Um, other examples of of customers we're working with, you know, we have a a customer called Hubble that's doing Bluetooth low energy tracking from space.

3:05:38

So, you can kind of think about like IoT uh device tracking from space.

3:05:42

Um, we have >> the company is called Hubble.

3:05:46

>> Yeah, it's called Hubble.

3:05:47

>> What a confusing name.

3:05:47

I I know that there was a contact lens company named Hubble and that kind of made sense because it's like a wildly different market, but if you're out there in space, >> so so I I can imagine the commercial use cases for that, right?

3:06:00

Uh if you if you have a lot of hardware out around the world and you want to track it in real time, >> uh is that uh does that have like defense applications as well?

3:06:11

Like what what are what are kind of like what's it what's the actual focus there? Yeah.

3:06:16

So I I don't want to speak for Hubble, you know, they would better for themselves than I will to our customer, but I I mean I think their primary focus is on sort of enterprise and commercial use cases.

3:06:27

So, you know, there's millions of asset tracking devices in the world today that are out tracking, you know, shipping containers and remote uh facility uh equipment, things like that.

3:06:37

And a lot of those are running on kind of these bespoke and frankly very old school satellite networks.

3:06:41

That's how they get the data back.

3:06:42

And I think Hubble's vision is that, you know, it it we should be doing the same thing we're doing with consumer devices, which is strapping a a 9- cent Bluetooth transponder on anything that's out in the world and then being able to track that thing from space.

3:06:55

And so, um, we think there's a lot, you know, I I think they believe there are many many commercial and enterprise applications of that.

3:07:02

There probably are also, you know, government applications of that.

3:07:04

I don't want to speak specifically to them, but um I think that's you know it's it's a it's a type all of these types of technologies especially with spacecraft in some way inherently dual use.

3:07:14

So there's always going to be use cases in both the commercial and the government sector.

3:07:18

>> Give us the fundraising update.

3:07:18

I feel like we missed you around series B potentially. Do you have news? What's up?

3:07:24

>> Uh we don't have news.

3:07:24

I mean we we we raised kind of a two-part series B last year and this year.

3:07:29

Uh it's a big round for us.

3:07:32

I think it totaled about $140 million.

3:07:33

Um, oh, we got the gone coming.

3:07:39

Uh, so yeah, we're doing we're doing well on the fundraising size. We're we're well funded.

3:07:42

We've got a lot of business coming in.

3:07:44

It's been very exciting days around the company.

3:07:45

So, uh, it's a pretty pretty uh, exciting um, path forward right now.

3:07:51

We're really just trying to scale the company up a lot. We have a big facility.

3:07:54

Uh, we're in we're in the Bay Area.

3:07:56

We signed a large facility earlier this year.

3:07:58

So, we'll be kind of 10xing our production capability, our hardware production capability in the South Bay uh before the end of the year and um and then building out a lot of uh other new technology pieces that we're really excited to talk about as uh as as we start to hit space with them. >> Fantastic.

3:08:16

Well, thank you so much for coming on the show.

3:08:19

>> Congratulations on the progress and uh yeah, thanks for breaking all that down for us.

3:08:22

Now, we know >> there's not literally fiber cables up in the sky.

3:08:27

>> That's why we asked the dumb question. figured it out. >> Thank you so much. We'll talk to you soon.

3:08:30

And up next, we have Mike Chevet from Traa.

3:08:33

Uh we have a video update from him.

3:08:35

Let's play that and welcome him to >> Come on over. How you >> doing? Good to see you.

3:08:42

>> Um can we play the little bit of the video that he shared?

3:08:45

Let's pull that up uh and get the update.

3:08:50

>> What's going on request qualifies thousands of workers for the best match?

3:08:56

This is uh is this your key hero marketing video right now?

3:09:00

>> Describe proper form for lifting >> a quick reel just to show all the products that we built. >> Sure.

3:09:06

>> Uh cuz in staffing there's so many different manual workflows and this video just basically breaks it down with how it all comes together.

3:09:15

>> How old is the company now? >> We're four years old. >> Four years old.

3:09:17

Are you still in New York?

3:09:19

>> We're still in New York. Manhattan. Yep. All 150 of us. >> 150 now. Wow. Okay.

3:09:22

So I I I toured the when did I come by and do an interview with you?

3:09:28

That was maybe years ago or so.

3:09:30

>> That was across the street.

3:09:30

We were across the street to across the street. >> Okay.

3:09:33

Um so yeah, take take us through the basics of like the the the problem, the market.

3:09:38

It's a highly fragmented market.

3:09:40

Um but what's the what's the high level like 140 characters that you describe Traa? >> Yeah.

3:09:45

So basically millions of workers across the country work in industrial staffing and then hundreds of billions of dollars get spent on staffing.

3:09:50

But if you break it apart, it's really just like a highly fragmented industry with like tons of manual opex and things like that.

3:10:00

So we basically replace the whole suite with tech and we provide double the fill rate, better quality workers and workers within a couple hours versus weeks. >> Yeah.

3:10:09

And uh like the staffing industry in general, I think of it as like highly lucrative but highly fragmented. Yep.

3:10:13

Is that is that just generally your experience?

3:10:18

Like I I I guess the I guess to just jump straight forward is like why build tech startup instead of private equity rollup like you're in a dress shirt you could go do a PE rollup right like like I don't know like it's not like you have to do it the Silicon Valley way.

3:10:32

Why are you doing it the Silicon Valley way?

3:10:34

>> Well basically because of the advancements in AI this never really was able to happen before but on the staffing end there's just so much manual work and tons of opex.

3:10:42

We basically just like from a >> top to bottom end to end just have completely redone it with tech. Sure.

3:10:49

>> Um, and that's why building it as a technology company has been so much better.

3:10:52

>> And so that's like when you say AI or tech, you mean like lead scoring, basically understanding who's right for what job, placing them, screening.

3:11:01

>> Well, it's it's like a ton of things.

3:11:01

So we do the vetting, we do we actually guide the worker to the shift.

3:11:04

There's fraud detection and like essentially follow-ups with the workers, and then as the workers perform shifts, we actually that feeds into our model.

3:11:11

And >> but it's not the AI doing the job. It's always No. Yeah.

3:11:15

You're you're you're you're sticking it out for the next decade. >> Yeah. Yeah.

3:11:19

On the back on the back end, the customer doesn't really see the AI on the back end.

3:11:22

We're doing all that work.

3:11:24

So, what the customer sees is just like >> an incredible group of people showing up for work every day and like helping them out.

3:11:30

>> Did you see the Uber news that uh Uber drivers are going to be able to do one-off AI tasks? >> I saw that. Yeah.

3:11:36

>> What is your take on that?

3:11:36

Do you have have any AI companies approached you where you're like just I don't know if I'm describing the company correctly, but uh I remember a couple case studies is like there's a big Taylor Swift concert in town and uh the organizer might go on Traa to pull in a bunch of folks really quickly or if it's uh the rush holiday season and then e-commerce warehouse.

3:11:57

I don't want to put you in a box, but like those are two examples, right? >> Yeah. Yeah.

3:12:00

basically like manufacturing, fulfillment, food processing, all those industries just have like crazy volatility in their work workforce needs.

3:12:08

So we help like smooth that out for them. >> Yeah. Yeah. Exactly.

3:12:10

Uh and so my question is have any AI companies uh like reached out to you and said like hey you have a big pool of labor we have a unique use case that we could like >> Yeah we actually have gotten a few inbounds companies who are just like hey we need these workers who do all these other things but right now we're laser focused on just industrial supply. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

3:12:28

>> Uh so focusing on that and we may expand out in the future.

3:12:32

>> Have any humanoid uh companies come to you and said like we'll give you robots like put them out into the field or are they not quite at the level where they actually would be willing to let them do unsupervised activity? >> Yeah.

3:12:44

So I I actually like see this how I talk to our customers about this all the time right now in like when it comes to humanoid robots.

3:12:50

They're not quite there yet, but we're going to be well positioned to essentially like lead that charge when the tech gets a lot better in about 5 years or so. >> Yeah.

3:12:57

because you're still going to have the the kind of variability in in in uh workforce needs, right?

3:13:02

Where you might need even even if you have a a hundred robots like in a facility and then suddenly it's rush season, you need to deploy like a hundred more on top of that.

3:13:12

It's like where do you where do you get that?

3:13:14

>> And then all these workers are going to essentially have to get connected to new earning opportunities.

3:13:17

So we'll be able to help them with that.

3:13:19

Yeah, that's a little bit of like I guess the narrative violation behind like AI taking every job or AI being useless is like I'm pretty sure Amazon is the largest robot operator but also one of if not the largest employer as well and so they're really doing the both robots and humans at scale thing >> within the facility.

3:13:39

It's a lot more dynamic and a lot of these companies they have to change things really quickly.

3:13:44

So just commit to a certain robotics workflow doesn't work today.

3:13:49

Um, which is actually why if you actually go back to Elon Musk's tweets in like five, six years ago, he actually said he's like, "We tried to make the Gigafactory all robotics and then we went back to humans because we couldn't necessarily like get there yet." >> Yeah.

3:14:00

And they had to do a hybrid hybrid.

3:14:01

Uh, talk a little bit about where the structure of the market is going in terms of staffing agencies broadly.

3:14:08

Um, >> I imagine that like a AI and technology generally are like an accelerant to growth, right?

3:14:17

you can just f tools in the mobile tool kit allow you to understand where people are going.

3:14:25

Um, how does that play out?

3:14:25

I mean, I imagine that competitors are going to try and catch up.

3:14:29

Um, are you planning to just out compete them?

3:14:33

Are you looking to eventually get into doing acquisitions?

3:14:37

Like, how do you think the long-term plan >> plays out?

3:14:41

>> So, I was in a staffing conference in Dallas and it was pretty crazy. >> Electric. why we do it.

3:14:47

>> Literally this year, everyone is like, "We are getting disrupted. AI is coming for us."

3:14:51