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61% of people feel expected to just get over stress. Yeah.
Search this video
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It's like just power through the moment.
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CEO of Calm author of Recharge David Coe Good stress could lead to resilience.
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You're never really going to have a stress-free work environment.
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Not everything has to be 24/7 365 because at some point you've caused a lot of bad stress.
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That's a real kind of indicator for you to say I need to really kind of take a hard stop and figure out how I recharge.
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The number one health and wellness podcast Jay Shetty Jay Shetty The one, the only Jay Shetty Hey everyone, welcome back to On Purpose, the number one place you come to become happier, healthier, and more healed.
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Thank you so much for tuning in today.
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Today, I'm so excited because I talked to a really good friend, someone that I respect so highly and admire so deeply, and I've had the fortune of knowing for the last couple of years.
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I'm talking about David Coe, the CEO of Calm, the leading app for meditation and mindfulness, and a new author of his book Recharge, that offers tips for the best mental wellness practices in today's digital world.
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The book has interviews with rappers, rebels, and innovators as he travels talking about stress, burnout, and feeling drained.
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If any of you are feeling stressed right now, this episode's for you.
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If you're feeling drained from work right now, this episode's for you.
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And if you need to recharge, this book and episode is for you.
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Please welcome to On Purpose, the CEO of Calm, David Coe.
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David, it's great to have you here.
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Thank you, Jay, for having me here today. I'm so excited.
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Uh I'm so excited because I really feel like ever since we met, I felt like we hit it off. Right away. Yeah.
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Oh yeah, right away, right away.
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And I've been fortunate enough to have you interview me so many times.
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So, I'm glad I get to repay the favor this time round.
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And I wanted to ask you just just to just to get our blood boiling just to start with some fun.
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I wanted to ask you David, what's something that you're not calm about?
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I think there's a lot of things that I'm not calm about throughout my day.
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I will tell you right now I am in the throws of my my oldest daughter applying to colleges.
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Even though I try to appear very calm in front of her and cool and collective, you know.
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And you don't want to be like a helicopter type of parent.
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There are times where I'm just like, you know, I want to get in there and say something, but I realize almost like the best thing for her is for her to go through it.
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And I have to kind of take a backseat.
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And so, it's it's kind of going from where you take the wheel to like you're in the passenger seat and then you're in the backseat kind of peering every once in a while.
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But I can't help myself from like, I don't know when she first learned to drive by like saying, oh, I'm I'm I'm stepping on the brake here and there, right?
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But uh that's one thing right now that is probably a little stressful. Yeah, I know. I can imagine.
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I read a study that said we process around 72 gigabytes of information per day. Yeah.
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Which the research likened to reading Tolkien's The Hobbit every single day.
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That's nearly 96,000 words. Right. Right.
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And you think about that and you go, no wonder we're overwhelmed.
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No wonder we're burned out.
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No wonder we're stressed.
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And you have this really brilliant analogy comparing the brain and our mind to a battery. That's right.
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Walk us through this because I really like this in your book, Recharge, the way you break it down and explain it.
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You know, the recharge came from a good friend of mine.
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And we were talking about mental health and I just asked her.
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I said, you know, how's it going with your kids?
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And she goes, you know, I was talking to my kids and I just said, how's your battery?
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And I was like, wait, what?
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And she goes, well, I said, how's your battery? I said, why?
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And she said, well, if I ask them how they're doing, I get the plain fine.
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And cuz they're kids, they're just like, I'm fine.
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But if I ask them like, how's your battery?
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They're like, well, it's at like 50%.
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Or it's Or so you may need a snack cuz they're little. Or it's at 75%.
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She She's like, oh, you're okay.
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Or sometimes they're at 25% and they just need something, you know, to decompress.
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While we were talking about it, a light bulb just went out.
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And that light bulb that went on was about like, she took something that at times can be charged and she took something and really simplified in a way that I think we would all understand, regardless of age.
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And I asked her, I was like, can I run with that?
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And she was like, yeah, sure, whatever, right?
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And we still laugh about it, Brenda, and I cuz she's like, wow, you actually took it.
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And I was like, yeah, I used it as a theme. I talk about it.
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I go to clients, I'll go out and it just kind of resonates with people cuz it's simple and it doesn't kind of draw out any emotions.
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It just says like, hey, how's your battery? How are you feeling?
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And I think that sometimes that gets lost because we all all we try to make it bigger sometimes than it is.
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And it's really nice when you can kind of just simplify it and just ask you, how you How's your battery? How are you doing?
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I I love the question, how's your battery even more than how you doing, like you said, because I think sometimes we I think you also mentioned that we can scale everything up to a 10. That's right.
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So, everything can feel like it's a 10, it's the worst.
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Or everything can feel like, oh, it's just plain old fine. That's right.
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And then you don't have much to play with.
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Whereas when you get a number, walk us through the different breakdowns as you do in the book. Yeah.
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Because I think when you look at zero to 100, we're very good at feeling zero and maybe 100, right?
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Like if it's your kids' wedding, chances are you'll be at 100.
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If it's like your kids' birthday, like you're at 100.
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Like there's these joyful, blissful moments in life that people experience and we go, "Yeah, that was a 100 moment."
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And then we all know what a zero moment feels like.
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You lost a loved one who sadly passed away.
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You got, you know, you lost your job.
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Like there's these very zero moments.
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Walk us through how you break down the zero to 100.
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I I try to do it really simply.
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You know, I I have found and I'll and I'll talk about my own kids at times.
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When I ask them that question, how their battery is, I notice that they check, like most people, they check their phones quite often.
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And at some point it just becomes like a reflex.
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And they don't even know they're checking it.
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But when they do look at it and the power's down or it goes yellow or it goes red, they they get a little panicked.
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They're like, "Oh my god, I got to charge it."
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Imagine my surprise when we're in like airports and they're like going up to people, "Do you Can I use a little of your charge?" Right?
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And I think we've all been there where we don't have a charger and you're like, "I need something.
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Can somebody help me out?"
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Most times people are really kind and they'll just, you know, kind of help you, especially if you're a kid.
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I thought about then putting it into zones and I put it into four zones.
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And I just said, "You know, if you're at 75 to 100, you're probably fine."
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And meaning that, you know, you're you're in a zone where you're just moving along.
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If you're at 50 to 75, you're probably in a place where you might need to start to think about how you may want to recharge.
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If you're in that 25 to 50, it's time to start figuring out take a break.
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You may need to take a walk.
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You may need to put down the phone.
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You may need to stop the litany of Zoom calls that you're on right now, right?
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And if you find yourself 0 to 25, that's a real kind of indicator for you to say, "Hey, something's probably not right and I need to really kind of take a hard stop and figure out how I recharge."
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And recharge can happen in number of different ways.
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And so, I'm I've I've often talked about when I've gotten into that zone, I just kind of almost go for a walk.
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Uh I sometimes go outside.
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I come I take some deep breaths. I do a number of things.
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Sometimes I may need to work out.
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A workout really helps me to recharge on a personal front.
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And everyone's a little bit different and they'll go to different techniques.
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And so, in the book, I list a lot of things in the book that you may do.
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You may do one, two, three, four, or all of them.
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And And they're just really techniques for you to figure out what works for you. Mhm. Yeah, no.
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I And I really like that breakdown because I think we're all better when we're measuring things with numbers. That's right. specificity there. Yeah. Yeah.
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And I'm one of those people I think I think the way your phone is charged says so much about you as a person.
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So, my phone is always charged. Yeah.
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I'm very rarely below 30% or 40% on my phone.
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And I think I try and monitor my personal health in a similar way. Right.
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As soon as I feel myself going below 50%, I know it's time for an early night.
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I know it's time to cancel weekend plans.
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I canceled a dinner this evening for that exact reason. Mhm.
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I got back from work yesterday.
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I left I started work yesterday at like 8:30 a. m.
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And I got back from a shoot at 9:30 p. m. Mhm.
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And I knew I had a dinner tonight and I just said, "I'm so sorry. I can't make it." you.
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Because I knew I had a busy day today. I was interviewing you.
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I was interviewing another guest.
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And I was like, "I want to be really present for that.
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It's really critical stuff.
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And then I need to recharge, using your word.
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I need to recharge this evening.
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And I'm always shifting things to recharge.
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And I love that idea because I think we hear the word rest and then sometimes we we feel guilty.
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We shouldn't but we feel guilty like I don't have time to rest. Yeah.
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But when you think of it about recharging, you're reframing it and going oh, I do need to recharge because otherwise how am I going to give my best tomorrow?
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100% 100% and you know, it's funny you and me are the same on batteries.
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I keep my battery pretty charged as well.
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I have an electric car too.
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I marvel at people who can take that electric car battery down to 5%. I can't do it. That stresses me out.
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I'm stressed out when they tell me these stories.
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Oh, I took the battery down to 5%. I'm like seriously?
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How I mean and they're like oh, it's fine. Yeah.
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You know, and for some people it works, right?
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For me that doesn't work.
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I'm plugging in that battery every night and I'm going to make sure I charge that battery up.
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Others will let it go pretty low.
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Everyone's a little bit different that works for them. Yeah.
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Uh I've asked some of my friends who charge it go really low and they're like well, if I charge it too much I get stressed. Like Oh, okay. Can work the other way. Interesting. Yeah.
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So it's got to kind of work for you and how you want to recharge and different techniques that you want to do.
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You're never really going to have a stress-free work environment.
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Anxiety, depression and then starts to leads to physical ailments cuz we know there's a linkage.
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Good stress could lead to resilience. It could lead to growth.
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It actually could lead to a stronger culture.
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I was wondering if someone's at a zero, when you ask them how's your battery? Yeah.
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And if someone says I'm I'm at five and I'm talking about emotionally, mentally not not their car or their phone.
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What would you say to them?
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How how would how would you communicate with them some of these tools when you're at zero?
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I've learned to like take the space to give them space so we can actually have a proper conversation.
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If you find someone at a really low percentage and I may ask that person like how are you doing? How How you feeling?
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And they and most of the time you just want a I'm good.
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Because then you just want to keep going. Mhm.
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And I find that often in the business world as well.
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Not just in the personal world, but in the business world.
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We don't want a response or sometimes we don't have the time to be like if that person who you're asking the question to says, "I'm not doing so hot."
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And I'm not doing so well. Then what do you do?
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So I'm very intentional when I ask some of these questions to individuals so that I give I'm ready for that response if it's I'm not doing well, like a five percent.
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So I kind of want to frame it there because I think I think sometimes you rush through these conversations.
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And then when they do tell you they're a five or a 10, I think the best things that I have found is you have to be present for them. You have to listen.
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You do such a brilliant job at that, Jay, cuz even in this type of environment, we know as we have this one-to-one conversation, if I was telling you I was a five or a zero, you'd be all in on this.
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And you would hear me out, and then you would start to tell me, "Okay, let's let's talk about what's causing that."
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And I've had at times where family members have come to me and said, "Hey, I'm not I'm at a five."
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And we start to break it down.
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And I said, "Let me Let me put it in another way for you." Think about your phone.
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And we do checks on our phone.
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And there's things on your phone that drain your battery more than other applications.
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And they're like, "Yeah, it's like when you go and Apple shows you what's draining or taking up all your memory."
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And what happens when you start to delete some of those things?
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Or what happens when you start to recognize what's causing it?
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They're like, "Oh, my battery is much more efficient." And I'm like, "Yeah."
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So it's how what's causing that in your in your personal life right now. Yeah.
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And we try to create like, you know, analogies of different things.
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And so it doesn't become a space where all we're doing is talking about all the negativity.
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We're trying to draw parallels to different things in everyday life.
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And so that it doesn't become such a charged conversation, right?
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And that's kind of that recharge concept as well, where we're like, let's talk let's talk about your mental health.
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Because sometimes some people don't want to talk about their mental health. Mhm.
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But when we bring up the battery conversation or how to recharge, it's just a different framing.
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And again, this is something I think you just do brilliantly to bring everyone in.
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And I I try to do the same thing there as well.
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Yeah, I was going to ask you that actually because I've always felt that with you you've always been present different touchpoints, whether we're at dinners, events, where even when we've traveled and seen each other when we're in New York for a dinner for time earlier this year.
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You're you're always present too, and I wonder how do you do that as a busy CEO?
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Because I think you're so right that when we answer ask the question, "How are you doing?"
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we are subconsciously hoping someone just says, "I'm good."
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We are all We almost ask the question and expect the response even before we have a response. You're so right.
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Like that really resonated with me.
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And the truth is sometimes life is fast for most of us, right?
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Our schedules are back-to-back-to-back.
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We are running from dropping your kid to school running from what running to work, picking up the laundry, doing the laundry, what whatever, right?
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There's so much going on.
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How do you actually create space for these conversations?
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And that's part of of being a lot more present and intentional.
14:49
As leaders, and I'd be curious now for you as CEO as well.
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We're expected to have all the answers.
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We're expected to make many different types of decisions.
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We're expected to play roles in HR, but also company strategy.
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And you know, when you take a step back, you can't make every decision.
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And then there's always things that don't that are the unexpected. Take your car analogy.
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So when you had your car and you were at 30%, you were probably with someone, but in the back of your mind you're going, "How am I going to get home?
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Where am I going to charge?"
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And you could do this probably better than most, but but you still want to be present for that individual that you're with or your friends that you're with in those conversations.
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And what I find is like sometimes we as leaders have to make the space.
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Sometimes we as leaders have to show something that you do absolutely brilliantly is to show a vulnerable side to them and talk about our own stories.
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I find that many CEOs today aren't vulnerable.
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I for one was not very good at being vulnerable.
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When I wrote the book though, I was just taken back at how many people who I met for the first time were so open and honest and vulnerable with myself.
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And it got me thinking, "Well, if they can do it, why can't I do it?" Right?
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And if I start to show some of that vulnerability at work, if I start to give a little bit of space and more time for that conversation, would that then make it just more open for others and more safe for others to have the conversation?
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Because if I if I'm not having that conversation and saying, "Here's my own journey," then they may feel that it's not okay for them to open up as well. Right?
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I'd just be curious like you're a CEO, right?
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You're I mean, you've got all these different businesses.
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How do you do that with your own employees?
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Yeah, I think it's uh for me it comes to the balance.
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So, vulnerability is a great point and and I really appreciate that because I do agree that if you create space to share what you're going through with your teams, they then have the permission to do the same.
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And I think I was mentioning when we did a panel at Comco a month ago or so, I was talking about a client of mine that I was coaching who's the CEO of a very large corporation and we'd gone through a transformation.
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They were saying to me, "Jay, I'm you know, I'm feeling good."
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And I was like, "Great, well, you should tell your team about your journey."
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And they were like, "How can I tell them?" Right.
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And I said, "What do you mean?"
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And they said, "Well, if I tell them, they're going to think I'm weak."
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And I was like, "No, I promise you, they're going to think you're strong." Mhm.
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And I think we're still redefining and reframing strength in the world today.
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I think there are some of us who still see bravado and arrogance and chauvinism as being strong. Mhm.
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And I think that's shifting, but it's shifting very slowly. That's right.
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And so, it is a cultural expectation as well, a societal expectation of strength being this kind of facade.
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But I think a lot of us are now realizing, well, no, strength is being able to show both sides and open up and be vulnerable.
18:01
I think the other thing that really comes to mind when I'm thinking about being CEO is I think stress can make people work harder. Mhm.
18:13
But it's the right amount of stress that makes someone work better. So true. Right?
18:17
There's a spectrum of stress.
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And so, if I just if I just keep checking in with someone and go, "Have you done it yet? Are you done yet?
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Why are we not there yet?
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Why did the numbers not triple this?"
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If I do that, they're going to feel stressed.
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And they may work harder, but that doesn't mean they work better. That's right.
18:31
And so, to me, the right amount of stress, and I want to ask you this as well, talk to me about the difference between good stress and bad stress. Yeah.
18:39
And and how you've been able to harness the right amount when you've got it right.
18:43
In the book, actually, I interviewed Dr. Aditi Nerurkar. And you met her? Yeah, she's wonderful. Fantastic, right?
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And we got into this whole conversation of good stress, bad stress.
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You stress, good stress versus bad stress, distress.
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And you know, we talked about how good stress could lead to resilience. It could lead to growth.
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It actually could lead to a stronger culture.
19:10
You're never really going to have a stress-free work environment. Agree.
19:14
You know, we're always going to have stress at work.
19:15
We're all going to have deadlines.
19:17
We're all going to have things we're going to want to hit, but but not everything has to be just like you said, 24/7 365 because at some point it's going to stack so much that you as a leader are realizing you're probably not being very efficient.
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Your employees are probably not working super efficiently, not working well together, and they're probably you've caused a lot of bad stress to stress in their life.
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That's leading to things like anxiety, depression, and then start to leads to physical ailments cuz we know there's a linkage between, you know, your mental health and your physical health.
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And so that becomes a very vicious cycle, especially in the workplace, and that leads to a lot of unproductivity.
19:57
What I found with the two is you really have to find that right balance and understand there will be just talk about it. There's a push.
20:07
We're all going to make a push.
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We did it recently as a company at Calm where we around the elections.
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And we treated the elections like our Super Bowl moment cuz we knew and we saw the data that people's stress was rising every day as that day, November 5th, got closer and closer.
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We saw it in the App Store. We saw it in comments. We saw it on social.
20:29
So we really came together as a company to do different types of things around that.
20:34
Take a breath, a 30 seconds or 15 seconds of silence.
20:37
Um we we showed animals from the San Diego Zoo on Instagram, and we got so many people commenting that day that said, "Hey, thank you for the silence.
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Thank you for my 15 seconds in this world where so many things are happening."
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Now, people were dialing in from work cuz they were stressed at work.
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Stress doesn't just mean it's at home.
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It was like people were like during the elections coming in from work.
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And so we wanted to give give a little bit so they had a release so they could be more productive.
21:07
So, there's a lot of things around stuff that I look at for good stress and bad stress and recognize there's always going to be a push-pull, but that's the part where you can't do it alone.
21:18
You got to have a good team, you got to talk about it. You do this so well.
21:22
And make sure that becomes part of your fabric, your culture, your DNA.
21:27
And I think it's shifting. Mhm. But it's slow. Yeah.
21:30
I think the conversation around mental health in everyday life it's the most approachable it's ever been. Right?
21:38
I talk about things with my own kids today around mental health.
21:42
When I was a child coming, uh you know, I'd be curious like for you like immigrant family, we didn't talk about our mental health in my household. Right?
21:49
We talked more about powering through things, and I can talk about that later, but we didn't really talk about it. My kids talk about it.
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They may overuse it at times, not use it the right way. It's okay.
22:00
They're having the conversation, their friends are having the conversation. I think that's great.
22:06
But when you go to the workplace, it kind of stops.
22:10
You know, and I go to so many places, and I'm like, "Do you talk about your mental health at work?" And they're like, "No."
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And I'm like, "Well, let's change that dialogue.
22:17
Let's make it as approachable as it is in everyday life.
22:20
And how do we start to do that?
22:22
Let's give you the tools, and we'll start at the top." Yeah, you're so right. You're so right.
22:26
What you're painting a picture of for me is that I look at the good stress being when we all know what challenge we're up against. Mhm.
22:35
We know what the goal is, and everyone feels supported.
22:37
And I think what often happens is people don't know what the goal is because you're not helping them do that.
22:44
They only see the challenge, and they don't feel supported. That's right.
22:48
So, now they don't know where they're going, and they feel if they fall flat on their face, they've nothing to catch them. That's right.
22:55
As a leader, the goal is to provide the goal and the support, and then the person can focus on the challenge.
23:02
Yeah, and be transparent. In that journey.
23:04
You know, I am I speak to many CEOs in the valley and and over the world and you know, a lot of times I'll ask them, how do you prioritize things with your employees? How transparent are you?
23:13
And I'll tell you many of them are not that transparent.
23:17
Or they'll be like, these are the most important things.
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And then they'll add five more. And then five more. All right?
23:23
And I'll be like, oh, okay. What did you take away?
23:28
And they're like, what are you talking about?
23:29
I mean, what did you take away?
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And they're like, nothing.
23:34
And I'm like, well, how do you think that's affecting your employees?
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And they're like, I never really thought about that.
23:41
So, I've just compounded and stacked the problem as a leader.
23:48
And you didn't take anything away and it and and and it cascades down like a megaphone.
23:54
Think about what that employee is going through and walk in their shoes for a minute.
23:59
You know, we at the top have the luxury of of having more control over our schedules.
24:06
But that person may not have as much control over their schedule.
24:07
They're just ticking through things.
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And if you just keep adding and not taking certain things away and saying, this is important, this isn't important, here's how I think about it, here's how I'm being transparent, you're adding more stress to your company.
24:21
You know, leaders struggle with how to be vulnerable.
24:24
Is it going to be used against me?
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Is someone going to write about it and say I'm too weak?
24:27
Is the board going to think I'm weak as a leader?
24:31
That's ultimately also a fail of corporate stewardship because they have to also look after your mental health. At Calm, I I love this.
24:39
When I first got introduced to Calm and started taking calls with the teams and I took my role of Chief Purpose Officer, I got integrated into the culture, I loved the little things and the focus on the little things at meetings at Calm, whether they're on Zoom, in person.
24:58
I want to hear about these smaller things that are happening on a daily basis, because I think often companies think they need to put out a thing that says, "We're focusing on company mental health."
25:08
And they're doing these big things, but Calm internally, Yeah.
25:13
let alone the work they do with other companies and workplaces, but Calm internally had some really nice Yeah.
25:19
cultural things that I noticed from the outside in as I was being integrated.
25:24
Walk us through some of those daily things that you think create the rituals and practices that help people.
25:27
It was interesting for me, my first day at Calm, I walk in and there Michael and Alex, who you know well, founders, right? love them.
25:37
And they love you and they talk about you all the time and how you all first met.
25:41
And they introduced me to the company, warm welcome, so inviting.
25:47
And they started the meet the whole all hands off with a meditation.
25:52
And I wasn't really used to that.
25:55
You know, and I was I was kind of sitting there, uh, and I kind of noticed everyone and normally we listen to someone like yourself, we'll turn you on or turn one of our other kind of narrators on, they do great.
26:06
And everyone just kind of sat there in the moment.
26:08
And whether it was sometimes it's, you know, really quick, 30 seconds, sometimes it's 5, 6 minutes, something 3 minutes.
26:15
And they listened and it was and I kind of was peeking at times, looking, I'm like, is everyone kind of closing their eyes, you know, around here, you know, looking there.
26:23
And they were just in the moment.
26:25
It was a moment for me that showed me how much they cared.
26:30
And I was like, wow, this company cares. This isn't forced.
26:32
You don't have to be here, you don't have to do this.
26:34
And they were there and they were present and they were in the moment.
26:40
So, that's like some of the That was one of the ways I knew this company was going to be different.
26:44
And then I watched as the company did things around gratitude, where we end every all hands with gratitude.
26:52
We read things that have come into us.
26:54
And it's a reminder of the impact we're having.
26:58
And I think that's why sometimes I'm so stressed.
27:01
Because I feel this weight of responsibility where every second of every day someone is using the product.
27:09
And I just feel like if we're not answering them, we're not helping them in the moment, someone's not getting something that they need. Mhm. And I feel that stress.
27:19
And I feel the the res- it's really responsibility. Yeah.
27:21
And I talk about that with the employees.
27:25
And I think it's really important to talk about that.
27:26
So, we do the gratitude piece at the end.
27:28
We have Zoom free days, you know, where where I talk to employees about, "Hey, if you're in a moment where you find yourself in five Zooms, take a beat.
27:41
You don't need to do that.
27:41
And if there's meetings that don't make sense, just like you did tonight, which was great, just say no. It's okay.
27:46
You know, we'll figure it out." And I do that, too.
27:51
And I try to be a lot more purposeful now because it helps me then be more present in the meetings that I need to be in. Yeah. Right?
27:57
And rather than saying, it's not the quantity of meetings that I'm in, it's those quality of meeting moments that I'm in.
28:05
And I think people sometimes like misinterpret like quantity for productivity versus like value.
28:13
And I'm much more like, "Okay, I'm going to do I'm going to focus on quality, and it may mean less, and that doesn't have to sacrifice my impact."
28:21
I was going to ask you, how does it impact productivity?
28:25
And I do think that we've convinced ourselves that if I'm doing more, if there's more on my schedule, if I'm jumping around, we've created our definition of value to be around busyness. Right. Yes.
28:40
And we all feel we're more important, valuable, and it's subconscious again.
28:45
You just think, "Oh, yeah, if I've got a lot to do, then I must be doing something." Yeah.
28:49
How do we start to shift that conversation?
28:50
What have you learned about that?
28:52
I know you interviewed some amazing people as well, as you were saying inside the book.
28:55
What did you learn about how we can reframe what we believe makes us valuable? Yeah, yeah.
29:00
So, I had um so, two people in particular.
29:03
So, John Sculley, for example, the former CEO of Apple.
29:08
He talked about how in the book he was chief listening officer.
29:12
And I was like, "Really?" And he's like, "Yeah."
29:15
Like, "Steve asked that we make our own business cards, and I wrote chief listening officer.
29:22
And I sat there, and I was like, "Wow, that's That was great. You listen.
29:26
And so, cuz so often, you know, you just start talking."
29:32
And he's like, "No, I became a lot more purposeful if I just listen first, said probably less, but that impact was greater, cuz I heard what was happening.
29:42
And I thought that was great." Yeah.
29:44
I had Jack Rowe, who's former CEO of Edna in the book.
29:47
He came over, and he said, "Sometimes you have to put yourself into neutral."
29:54
And he's like, "And you have to give yourself space, cuz you can't run at 100 miles an hour.
29:58
And if you don't give yourself a little bit of a break, no matter what position you're in, you're going to find yourself uh upside down, and you're not going to figure out how to turn back up." Mhm.
30:08
And I I appreciated those conversations with them, because they're a little bit more old school in their approach.
30:18
They they think we're a little bit more in the middle now.
30:20
And then there's a younger generation, right, that's coming up who thinks about things completely different.
30:24
It's been such a privilege to be able to kind of talk to so many different people Mhm.
30:28
who are in that in that continuum, to kind of hear how they're managing it, right? Mhm.
30:34
Even like how you think about things today, and how you manage all that, right?
30:37
It's just must be a lot coming at you today from many different angles, when they're like, "Jay, what do you do?" Right? Yeah.
30:43
And and I think for me, it's it is the old cliché, but it's so true.
30:47
Like, you are only as good as your team.
30:51
And I do think being a leader means taking care of your team. That's right.
30:56
In one sense, I feel like that's all a leader actually has to do is be the coach, therapist, support system, or provide and bring those things in for the team.
31:05
And you almost become a coach. Right.
31:08
And yes, you'll be strategic.
31:08
Yes, you'll be a visionary.
31:09
But a lot of it is just loving people and supporting people, I find at least.
31:16
I find like that's what most of my time is taken up 100%.
31:20
doing because everyone has their emotions.
31:22
And as long as you have smart people that you're working with, then those people are the people that investing in them as humans Yeah.
31:30
is allowing them to do what you trust them to do. That's right.
31:32
But the thing that's holding them back is usually something emotional or mental. Mhm.
31:37
It's rarely professional that people have challenges and I find it's something they're going through in their personal life.
31:42
It's a mental block that they have. Yeah.
31:45
And if that doesn't get healed and accessed in the workplace, that's going to be the spanner in the works.
31:50
Like, that's going to be the thing that bottlenecks the process, creates inefficiency, creates a lack of trust. That's right.
31:59
That's the kind of stuff that gets in the way. Yeah.
32:01
And and a lot of times, too, when you talk to people, they have no idea what's happening outside the workplace. Mhm.
32:06
You know, but so much that happens outside the workplace affects the workplace.
32:12
It's really important for companies, too, to have mental health support tools for employees.
32:16
So, when they need things, people to talk to, you know, applications, whether they're Calm or others, therapy, if they need it.
32:24
If they just make those available and known, that's another step in the process. Yeah.
32:27
So, that's why I always tell people it's not just one thing.
32:30
It's kind of like a number of things you have to put together because people may take bits and pieces of each to make it their own.
32:36
But it kind of shows them when they need it, it's there. Yeah.
32:38
And a lot of times people will go look for things on their own.
32:42
You know, they'll search and they'll see if you got tools and what companies.
32:46
And I do find that you sometimes will lose good people because you're not supporting them in their journey. Yeah.
32:52
And so the more you could be there for them and they know that they become some of your most loyal, most productive, most culture-bearing, you know, carrying the flag employees. Yeah.
33:05
And you didn't have to tell them to do it.
33:06
They just kind of did it on their own. Absolutely.
33:09
And I feel like those often are the best ones.
33:12
And I and we have a lot of those uh and I'm very and I just feel very privileged that we have so many folks like that that that they just care deeply and it's personal for them.
33:21
I am my previous company I had started was a caregiving company.
33:27
And one thing I had noticed in that company was that so many people that were caring for others were suffering. Mhm. Right?
33:33
They and then they had to go to work.
33:37
And people had no idea that they were doing like five jobs.
33:41
Caregiver, they were worrying about their finances, they were trying to figure out how they help people, and then they had to go to work and and they had a litany of things they had to go do.
33:49
And most people have no idea all these things are going on in other people's lives, right?
33:52
Cuz sometimes we just don't ask the question and cuz we're so busy ourselves.
33:55
Or sometimes we don't want to ask the question cuz we're so busy ourselves we can't take anything else on.
34:02
But I just feel that if we are just more aware and we create space for employees and we listen to what they have to say. Flexible work schedules.
34:09
What are they asking for?
34:11
That's why I constantly poll our employees as well. What do you value? And they'll tell us.
34:19
And then if we have stuff that they don't want we put it away.
34:22
I sometimes like, "Oh, all my employees want this gym membership." And then nobody uses it.
34:29
And and they're like what I Just ask. Yeah.
34:31
And I'm like, now I just ask.
34:33
Let's have our team go out and and say, "Here are the top 10 things. What do you want?" Yeah.
34:37
And then we'll take away a couple things that they don't use, you know, and we'll try to ask that almost every year. Totally.
34:44
I I I can couldn't agree more. We I love gift giving.
34:46
It's one of my love languages, and you were so kind to bring me a gift today, which is very thoughtful, and very useful, and and both of which I will use.
34:56
And the reason I'm saying that is I love giving gifts, too.
35:01
And so, you know, over the years, when it comes around the holidays, I love getting gifts from my team.
35:07
And for a long time, I'd always be guessing, like what everyone wanted.
35:12
And you assume that something's cool or trending or whatever it may be, and then you start to realize what you just said, people didn't really want that. Yeah.
35:20
And then at one point, we were like, "Okay, well, then we won't give gifts.
35:22
We'll just, you know, thank people."
35:22
and whatever else it was.
35:23
But then we were like, "No, but people like people like it. Everyone enjoys it." And so it's so funny.
35:29
We've started polling over the last few years, like, what kind of gift would everyone like?
35:32
And the number one answer this year was infrared masks.
35:35
Like, so what you call it? Photobiomodulation.
35:37
That was the number one request.
35:37
Yeah, the the red light the red light. Yeah.
35:41
So, that was the number one request. We're like, "Oh, easy.
35:42
Now we know what everyone wants.
35:43
So, we're going to get that because it's easier, rather than us guessing."
35:49
And and I agree that I do think people inside of organizations today want mental health tools.
35:53
They want meditation practices.
35:55
They want mindfulness opportunities and tools and apps and everything else.
36:00
I do believe there is a big demand for that.
36:02
And I think it's only growing because people are feeling that if you don't have that, you can't have that conversation in the workplace.
36:12
I think this is the part that I want companies and leaders to understand.
36:16
If you're not providing tools to support people with their mental health, they don't have a vehicle to talk about it at work. That's right.
36:26
it's available to everyone and they see it come out in the newsletter and the team's available and everyone knows about it, they can say, "Oh, yeah, did you see we're using Calm now?"
36:34
And you know, I've been doing this one and which one have you been doing?
36:37
And now it allows for connection and conversation and community as opposed to without it, someone may just never talk about the fact that they've been struggling to sleep for 7 days. 100%. Right? 100%.
36:48
And And I And I find that too amongst the younger generation.
36:52
They just expect these things. Yeah.
36:54
You know, and they're asking for them.
36:55
And they'll give up other things along the way. Yeah.
36:57
And so and they're very vocal around it. Mhm.
36:59
And we've seen it now in all industries.
37:04
You know, we've seen it happen in banking where people feel like, "Hey, you're not listening."
37:08
And it it takes a moment where they have to go to the press almost, right?
37:11
It shouldn't have to ever get there. Yeah.
37:15
If they were listening to those kids and listening to your employees, then you've got a continuous feedback loop. Yeah.
37:22
More companies, the baseline will be you have to have these services going forward.
37:27
And And I think over time then that will open up a dialogue.
37:32
And I also think with CEOs today, I'll tell you cuz it starts so much at the top, if you start to have some of these conversations and say, "Here's how I think about it.
37:39
Here's how you're being vulnerable."
37:41
That too opens up a different conversation. Mhm.
37:44
And then it that can just kind of percolate within the company.
37:48
And And then I think the whole thing starts to move faster. Mhm. Right?
37:51
And then we can start to get more of into a conversation of like, "Okay, now how do we get you the right care at the right time, when you need it, however you need it?"
38:01
Cuz so much of the conversation we're having right now is pretty basic in my mind.
38:06
And we just need to get farther along in the conversation.
38:08
Yeah, I think a lot of people will question listening to us going, "Well, how does mindfulness or meditation actually help burnout?
38:17
Or how does it help stress?"
38:20
So that's one thing and I mean there's tons of signs on that, but I think there's still So, I want I want you to answer that.
38:25
And the second thing is, well, how does this affect my productivity? Right?
38:29
Like, how does it actually get people to do the work that I need them to do? Sure.
38:36
And And isn't this just a a distraction or slows them down?
38:38
Because I know a lot of organizations just feel like this sounds good in theory, but how does it help?
38:45
So, if we could talk about how mindfulness and meditation, specifically the programs that exist on Calm, how do they make sense for stress and burnout?
38:52
Then, how do they make sense for productivity and performance?
38:56
Yeah, I mean, I think I have both of those.
38:57
I'll start with the second one first cuz it it it comes up a lot. Mhm.
39:00
And what I often tell people is when I'll just use Calm as an example, more than half the people that use Calm today come to us for sleep.
39:08
And they're having moments where they just can't fall asleep.
39:12
Most of that comes, as we know, because they're sleeping next to their their devices.
39:16
The devices are constantly beeping.
39:18
They don't shut them off.
39:20
I talk about like it's hard, but, you know, I keep my phone outside my bedroom. Not everyone does that.
39:25
When I travel, I don't do that.
39:29
And sometimes it leads to, you know, not a a good sleep.
39:35
And we know when you have a number of those days that start to compound, it could lead to irritability.
39:39
It could lead to not being as productive the next day when you go to work cuz you're just tired. Right?
39:47
You couple that at times with potentially bad eating habits or some people drinking habits or other types of habits that aren't And that doesn't create And it creates kind of like what I call negative behavior.
39:59
I had that when I was younger cuz I didn't understand some of these tools.
40:05
And I just wish I had some of these tools when I was younger cuz I didn't I didn't do those things that created positive behavior change. Mhm.
40:11
Um when I was in banking, for example, I And when I got stressed, I turned to smoking.
40:18
And I was just a kid and I was like smoking in the stairwell of Solomon Brothers.
40:24
I shouldn't have been smoking in the stairwell. That's number one.
40:27
I talked about this with our employees saying, "Hey, I didn't have apps like Calm or tools to help me in the moment. I wish I did.
40:35
I probably would have turned to other things and understood that's positive behavior that I could turn to, not negative behavior." Mhm.
40:43
And if I have enough of that, then it starts to kind of change the pendulum.
40:46
Because I then ended up on a very slippery slope.
40:48
You know, you're smoking, you start to drink a little bit more, then I'm eating more at odd hours, and then I try to go to sleep.
40:55
And you just know if you're trying to eat Chinese food at 11:30 and you want to go to bed at 12:00 or 12:30, you're not going to sleep well cuz there's just a lot of stuff just sitting there, right? Keeping you awake.
41:05
And so for me, it's been this continuous kind of learning.
41:10
And we talk about some of these things and you know, I think in the work before it's it's a little no different.
41:15
I mean, cuz people got to shuttle the kids off to school in the morning and you're going to make breakfast, you got to do all these things.
41:21
So you you kind of need good sleep at night.
41:24
And it starts, I think, a lot there.
41:27
And then during the day, we need breaks.
41:31
People think and it's in the book that you that our brain has endless capacity. It's just not true.
41:37
We don't have endless capacity.
41:39
You know, our brain, like everything else, needs to recharge.
41:45
And if you can find ways to recharge, whether it's listening to you every day, uh congratulations on over 600 episodes.
41:54
We were talking about 50 million streams as our chief purpose officer, which I so grateful for because there are times where those 7 minutes for me where I listen to you, whether it's in the car driving my kids Uh, school, takes 10 minutes, uh some days it takes 30 with traffic.
42:15
There There moments that I just cherish or when I'm driving back alone.
42:19
And it's it just helps me then as I start to recenter myself to be more productive during the day.
42:24
Or during the day, I take a short break and I know how to recharge now, whether it's going outside, walking or others, and it makes me so much more productive.
42:32
Because what I find is if I work in a manner and I find myself falling below 50%, 25% of my battery and I just keep trying to power through, my work gets It's not very good. Yeah.
42:45
It's embarrassingly bad, I would say, at times.
42:50
And no amount of AI is going to make it better. Yeah. You know? It's just not. Yeah.
42:56
And so, I then have to kind of take a step back and be like, "Okay, you're trending in the wrong direction. Take a break."
43:05
And I talk about this at a company and with many other companies that are out there today.
43:09
And I know so many employees I talk to resonate around this. Yeah. Right?
43:12
Cuz they just feel it's an endless hamster wheel. For sure. For sure.
43:15
Yeah, I was As you were speaking, I was thinking about how if you have a still mind, you actually make quicker, better decisions.
43:26
And if you have a stressed mind, you actually make slower, worse decisions. Yeah.
43:32
And we think, "Oh, well, if I take time out to be still, I'll lose time."
43:37
But actually, if you take time out to be still, you'll gain Yeah.
43:40
because you make better decisions, they'll be more long-term, they won't be rushed and haphazard, and they'll actually be You'll be a better communicator.
43:48
I know for a fact that if I'm stressed, I don't communicate as clearly. Yeah.
43:53
I can I can be a bit more like rushed and, you know, kind of like let's hurry this up and short Whereas if I'm rested and I'm still, then actually I'm able to formulate ideas, I can be more tolerant, I can be more patient, which are all the skills you need.
44:09
And so, taking out 7 minutes a day doesn't make you slower, it actually makes you faster and better.
44:15
And And something I pulled from your book, these these stats were really fascinating for me to read.
44:21
So, 61% of people feel expected to just get over stress. Yeah.
44:29
That's unbelievable that 61% of people feel like they're expected to just get over stress. Yeah. It's just Why is that?
44:40
When I was younger and I didn't understand this uh when I was 14 years old and I think it was much younger.
44:47
I wrote about it in the book that it was 14.
44:48
I actually think it happened when I was younger.
44:50
I just didn't I just don't recollect those times. Mhm.
44:55
When I got really stressed or nervous and most of the time they're around like tests or speaking stuff or in front of the class I just started to get a tightness in my chest.
45:05
I would I would get shortness of breath at times.
45:07
I would sweat in my hands.
45:10
And I didn't really understand what was happening.
45:11
And I talked to my mom, you know, and like a very traditional Korean mother, she'd be like, "Just power through it."
45:18
And I'm like, "Okay, I'm just going to power through it, right?"
45:21
But she didn't know either what was happening.
45:23
And I don't blame her around that.
45:24
She just didn't understand in the moment.
45:26
You know, the reality is when you think about your mental health it's not about you do, you know, and it's not about powering through the moment.
45:35
It's For me, it's about powering up.
45:38
You know, and it's And that's where the battery analogy keeps coming back in. Yeah.
45:42
And And I didn't understand some of that.
45:44
And then you cup And then I didn't have the vocabulary.
45:48
It wasn't really until I started getting into health care that I started to understand, "Oh, wow, this is what you were going through.
45:53
You've been able to kind of manage it and through some unhealthy behaviors at times.
45:58
And now you are doing it through healthy behaviors.
46:02
But the vocabulary has changed, right?
46:04
And you have a better command of that vocabulary.
46:06
So, you know how to talk about it now, where I didn't know how to talk about it then. Yeah.
46:08
And so, I do think so much of the the population today is about powering through it.
46:13
And I do think a lot of the population and I would say more in countries like Korea or Asia, even though mental health is the most approachable it's ever been, like in the States, it's not really approachable there. Mhm.
46:31
You know, and and that does make me sad at times when I go back home.
46:33
My parents moved back to Korea, they live there.
46:35
I want to talk about these things with them and it's just not it's not easy for them to talk about, right?
46:41
I don't know how it was for you.
46:43
Did you talk about this when you were a kid with your so interesting what you were saying about your experiences of stress growing up.
46:49
Mine were the same and they didn't know what it was either.
46:50
So, I would It's the same things.
46:52
Exams, anything high performance related.
46:54
I'd feel like my chest got tighter, my heart felt like it wasn't beating the same.
47:00
I'd get, you know, sweaty palms.
47:03
And I remember going to the doctors and they'd wire me up with these monitors, like old school monitors with like these big things.
47:09
I'd have to wear it for 24 hours and I'd go back and they'd be like, "Oh, he's fine."
47:16
And I'd be like, "But Mom, I'm not fine.
47:17
Like there's something I'm feeling."
47:17
And there was no word for it.
47:18
So, I I can very much relate.
47:20
And again, my mom didn't know what it was either.
47:23
And she was trying her best to help.
47:25
But we couldn't figure it out.
47:25
And so, I got on with it and and I always have.
47:30
And then I was thankful enough to learn mindfulness and meditation many years later that have been my core practices.
47:37
And now, it's not that I don't get nervous before I'm going on stage or a podcast.
47:41
I still do, but I know what to do.
47:44
And so, I have my breath work.
47:44
I know what I have to lock into.
47:46
It's not that I don't experience those emotions anymore.
47:50
But I agree, even in a South Asian family, like I don't think that vulnerability was normal from parents.
47:58
It wasn't common for uncles and aunts to be that way.
48:00
And so it created a culture of always putting your best foot forward, always somewhat being performative. That's right.
48:09
And I think I never subscribed to that.
48:12
So I started very early on rebelling and just Good for you. being myself.
48:16
And I wish I'd done that.
48:18
Yeah, and I was just I'm just I started breaking the rules early on that.
48:20
And I'm grateful that I did, but now I realize it wasn't that I was breaking the rules.
48:25
I was just expressing my discomfort with having to put up a face or a mask on when everything wasn't okay. Yeah.
48:36
And and I think that's hard for people to do today where I read another stat that said 33% of people feel too overwhelmed by daily stress to think ahead. Yeah.
48:47
Like when you think about that, it's like, gosh, like, you know, that's what people are under. Mhm.
48:54
What are some of the get that, right? that. You just forget it.
48:56
I mean, you think about those numbers, that's whether it's 2/3 or 1/3 of all people feeling this way.
49:05
And you start to realize, well, that's heavy, you know?
49:06
And if you were in a room and three out of 10 or six out of 10 are feeling a certain way, you start to realize there's more That's just why with corporations, I think it's so important that they can take leadership positions. Mhm.
49:19
Again, I always go back to the top on some of these things because if we're not comfortable being vulnerable.
49:26
And if we're not comfortable making sure their HR teams have the tools to talk about this with employees, that we don't support some of these initiatives.
49:36
We're kind of in a place where we're saying, "Oh, we don't believe some of those stats."
49:39
But the stats are there and growing. Mhm. Right?
49:41
And And yes, there's you know, there's life things that are happening, but technology is moving so fast on the other side. Mhm. Right?
49:50
I mean, we are definitely in an era right now where kids have grown up with their smartphones.
49:54
They act differently than uh you know, when I grew up or when you grew up. It's just different.
50:01
We and they grew up with this technology.
50:02
They're very comfortable with it.
50:04
The speed of it which is is coming.
50:06
And so and then there's the weight of what's happening just in life around them.
50:11
And so some of these things even at the company level which are interesting and you don't do this is like and I found this a little bit with myself.
50:17
I'll just tell you on a personal front front.
50:21
we're taught to play it very safe.
50:23
And I think that's an important thing, too.
50:25
I'll tell you a lot of people miss is that you know, you don't want to say the wrong thing.
50:29
So, you're not going to talk about your own vulnerability because that's not playing it down the fairway. Mhm.
50:34
You kind of want to be boring.
50:34
I'll be frank with you for a lot of leaders.
50:39
Not all leaders which we know.
50:39
There's a couple of them that are quite uh but for most leaders when you go out there they're media trained to be right down the fairway.
50:49
And what I love when I listen and watch your podcast it's so authentic. It's so real.
50:55
It's so safe for all the people that listen.
50:59
And then and it just shows, right?
50:59
With how many people are tuning in every day, right?
51:04
And listening to you and doing what I did.
51:06
It's like I'll listen to somebody and then I'll go back to that.
51:08
I'll be like, oh, I remember that.
51:08
I'm going to go back to that.
51:11
And it's just because we just play it safe in a lot of places today.
51:15
And you don't want to say the wrong thing. Yeah. And I think it's okay.
51:17
You know, like even if I was here with you today and maybe something and I didn't say the right thing today I'm in a space where I feel so safe with you right now.
51:27
I just want to be myself and not everything's going to be perfect. Absolutely. Right?
51:31
And and that's kind of part of life and I've started to accept that.
51:36
And I've become and a much more vulnerable with my own employees to be like, hey, this is okay.
51:42
And because of that in the last couple of years, we're stronger. Mhm.
51:44
We're stronger as a company.
51:48
We just had a board meeting and they're like, "Wow, this is great."
51:49
Everyone's like, "Yes, we're doing much better."
51:53
But I think because we're developing and and really building on the right culture, we're asking the right questions or and we want to lead by example. Yeah. Right?
52:00
What was something you shared with them that you feel was challenging, uncomfortable, that that led to that breakthrough?
52:08
Yeah, I um in the last one that you were at, I I did talk about my smoking as a kid. Mhm.
52:12
I talked about me being overweight as a child, dealing with that, that insecurity.
52:21
Um I've always had a struggle with food. I love french fries. I'm just going to Yeah.
52:28
I I guess I'm telling all I love ice cream.
52:32
And I think sometimes and I have a really, no matter what I try to do diet wise, I if you put some fries in front of me, I'm going to eat them.
52:44
Uh if I if you put some ice cream in front of me and someone my kids are having I'm I'm going to eat some of that, too.
52:48
And my kids are like, "Dad, I thought you're like full." I was like, "I was." All right.
52:53
So, I struggle with that.
52:53
I know when I'm a little bit stressed, I'm a little bit of a binge eater as well.
52:57
I try to obviously develop a lot of healthy habits also around how to be healthier.
53:04
And so, I do I do exercise a lot more.
53:08
But some of those things are hard just to get rid of.
53:09
You know, it's it's more like you're going to have to live with it and it's how you live with it.
53:13
That's like that comment about stress.
53:15
You're never going to have a stress-free workplace. Yeah.
53:20
But you got to figure out how you just have more healthy stress, right?
53:21
How you stress rather than distress. Yeah.
53:25
What's what's the most common thing you hear from leaders that they're struggling with in their organizations when it comes to stress and teams' mental health?
53:34
I I think a lot of leaders today struggle with as I spoke to you about vulnerability and how you gave the story about vulnerability.
53:44
That story plays over over and over again. Wow.
53:46
You know, leaders struggle with how to be vulnerable.
53:50
And I think it's I think it's generational on a personal level.
53:52
I think the new leaders that are going to rise, the ones in their 20s, are going to have no problem. All right?
53:59
Because when you look at social media today and a lot of the younger generation, they talk about their mental stress and they talk about their mental health and they're very open about it.
54:10
Now, again, they may overuse it or, you know, but at least they're having a conversation around it.
54:15
I think, you know, with other leaders today, when I talk to them, they're just like, "Hey, is it a sign of weakness like you brought up?
54:23
And is it going to be used against me? Yeah.
54:25
Is someone going to write about it and say I'm too weak?
54:27
Is the board going to think I'm weak as a leader?"
54:32
And I think that is the That's ultimately also a fail of corporate stewardship because they have to also look after your mental health, Mhm. you know?
54:42
And so, when I'm, you know, I'm fortunate to be on the board of Calm today, but if I wasn't CEO, I would be asking that CEO, "Hey, how are you doing? How are you holding up?
54:52
Let's not talk about the numbers today."
54:55
You know, I find it really effective when I meet with CEOs and they ask for some coaching, we don't talk about any numbers.
55:03
We don't talk about the metrics. We just talk about life.
55:07
And we'll eventually go to that later, but I think when we start with more of a trusting place where we can understand what's happening around you, then I can be much more thoughtful in the type of advice I give.
55:20
But this also means I have to create the space and the time to do it.
55:21
So, not everyone has that, right?
55:25
And that's where I think it's just really important to be really intentional, right?
55:27
Be really purposeful in these conversations.
55:29
Yeah, I think one of the reasons why we struggle to recharge is because when your phone's running out of battery, there's only one type of Well, we're also bad at this.
55:39
There's only meant to be one type of charger.
55:42
Now, I've seen people charge their phone with their Mac charger. Right, right, right.
55:46
You're destroying your phone. Right?
55:47
You'd see it being charged with the iPad charger.
55:50
Like, but the point is there's one charger. Yeah.
55:54
And I think when it comes to life, sleep is a charger, meditation and mindfulness 100%.
56:02
food is a charger, working out is a charger, and people you love, being around good relationships, are a charger.
56:12
And if everyone, while you're listening to this, if you could figure out the most common times you feel at 1%, 5%, 10%, 20%, and figure out what's the charge you need for that. Well said. Right?
56:24
Like, that's what I think we need to do.
56:25
Like, I'll give an example.
56:26
I I went to an event the other day, and I had to fly out of town and come back into town.
56:31
I got back at like 4:00 a. m. Oh.
56:34
And I worked out the next day, and I felt so weak because I hadn't slept well. And I hadn't eaten well.
56:41
And so, at that point, I'm glad I still worked out because I needed it, but I told told my trainer I had to get a bit of a easier workout because I didn't want to push myself when I felt weak.
56:51
But it's like it takes little adjustments of figuring out what charge you need right now.
56:56
Like, now, I've had a busy week, had a busy weekend.
56:58
This weekend, I know that recharge means I need no social plans.
57:02
Like, that's what's going to recharge me.
57:04
And so, I wish everyone could just write down while you're listening to this and while you're reading David's book, Recharge, you write down what are the most common experiences you feel when you feel drained, when you feel overwhelmed, when you feel burnt out, and what is your charger?
57:19
So that you don't have to think about it in the moment, cuz when you're trying to figure it out in the moment, that's when you get more overwhelmed.
57:25
Like, I know before I go on stage, I always practice breath work.
57:27
If I've had a couple of late nights, I know sleep is the only chance that's going to solve it. Yeah. Yeah. Right?
57:35
Speaking of that cuz you've talked about, you know, certain rituals.
57:36
Are there certain things that you do every day like religion every day that you just do?
57:43
Yeah, I I kind of do what I call like what I feel is like a good 80/20.
57:47
So like I know 5 days out of the 7 days a week I'm working out. Mhm.
57:52
5 days out of 7 I'm meditating before 9:00 a. m.
57:58
And then the other two would be meditating after 9:00 a. m.
57:59
And I like that balance that I have.
58:01
Uh gratitude is something I'm practicing every single day.
58:07
But yeah, it's such an important one I think.
58:09
We do something with my team that I love.
58:11
Every Friday we'll do a weekly win. Mhm.
58:13
And everyone's encouraged to share what they believe is their win.
58:18
And sometimes what's amazing about this activity is you feel it will always be like, "Oh, we had so-and-so on the podcast."
58:24
Or we won so-and-so award or and it isn't.
58:28
It's actually these little things that people are doing behind the scenes Yeah.
58:33
that are not like these grand wins externally. Yeah.
58:35
And they believe that that's been their success.
58:38
And I think it's a really great way to actually get to know each other because you get to see what people value as success. Yeah, 100%.
58:46
And you get to understand what people see as value in the work they do.
58:49
Whereas we just assume that of course if there's a big quarter then everyone should be excited and it's like, "Well, maybe not."
58:54
Because that's not what they equate as their personal success and contribution.
59:00
And so doing the weekly wins on Fridays one of my favorite things to do with my team. I love that. like 30 minutes to do.
59:05
And everyone just goes around my core team and just shares what was their weekly win. It's huge. love that.
59:11
I am I sometimes start my beginning of the week staff meetings with like, "How was your weekend?
59:15
Just tell us something that happened personal."
59:19
You know, I also find sometimes we we get into all the details without getting to know one another. Yeah.
59:24
You know, and I find a lot a lot of times teams don't work well.
59:28
They can work better together when they're a little bit more personal with one another.
59:32
And it may it doesn't have to be deep.
59:34
It could just be like, "Hey, what what did you do?"
59:35
Some people will say, "I went on a hike.
59:36
I, you know, went to my kids game or, you know, I went I traveled somewhere or binge-watched a show."
59:42
And we're all like, "What show?
59:44
What's your favorite show?" or something.
59:45
And we just get to learn something a little bit more personal about the individual.
59:48
And then it's less about "Oh, did you hand in that PRD?" It's not that, right?
59:52
It's just it's more personal. Yeah.
59:56
And I think and by you just doing your wins every week, you know, how I just I love that. Yeah.
1:00:01
I I think about it is very simple.
1:00:04
I think about it like this.
1:00:05
Like, you're going to spend a third of your life at work. Yeah.
1:00:10
Learn to get along with your colleagues. Yeah.
1:00:12
Learn to build relationships with the people you spend 9 hours a day with.
1:00:18
You're going to spend a third of your life with these people.
1:00:19
You should actually really get to know them. Yeah.
1:00:24
You should be able to laugh with them.
1:00:25
It would be wonderful if you could open your heart with them.
1:00:27
When we kind of go, "Well, work's this thing over here and I save all of that for home."
1:00:31
you're basically saying that 30% of your life you'll never experience joy, you'll never experience connection.
1:00:39
And I don't think that's the world we want anymore.
1:00:43
I think we need a world where work can be meaningful and thoughtful and purposeful.
1:00:46
And again, going back to what you said, it's not that it'll ever be stress-free. That's right.
1:00:51
It's not that it's ever going to be perfect or this utopia or this beautiful place where everything's amazing.
1:00:55
But I think one of the things we don't realize is that a lack of productivity stems from a lack of trust. Yeah.
1:01:03
When you have trust and you have interpersonal connection, things move faster.
1:01:07
People are not gatekeeping, no one's trying to be a bottleneck, no one's looking out for how they can be top dog.
1:01:13
There's this feeling of we're all going to win together.
1:01:15
And I think if leaders can start to figure out what that culture is, then people will achieve so much more and they'll be happier.
1:01:24
I think, you know, one of my I would hate to be at the top of a hill with the team and three people like gave up along the way, two people told me they never want to come back.
1:01:34
Like It's an I I was I was going to ask you, you've had so much business success before Calm, you know, at Calm.
1:01:39
Like, walk us through how your views have changed of recharging and recharging your team.
1:01:46
It's It's It's actually interesting.
1:01:46
I used to be one of the youngest execs in the room and now I'm the oldest person in the room.
1:01:52
Uh I think when I was younger, I felt that I had to be in every decision process. Mhm.
1:02:01
And that's a little bit of like, oh, I'm productive cuz I got my hands in everything.
1:02:06
And it was probably the opposite.
1:02:06
I was probably causing more stress and less productivity on a person and I realized that later that it's it's not the number of meetings or decisions you're making.
1:02:19
It's not the quantity, it's the quality of those decisions and I keep going back, always the quality of decision-making.
1:02:23
What is a quality decision? Let's Let's define that.
1:02:27
Yeah, that's that's great. Yeah.
1:02:27
So, like, it's it's things that you feel that where you sit can move the for me, can move the business forward in the most meaningful manner.
1:02:34
So, sometimes it could be helping teams unlock a product decision.
1:02:40
Sometimes could be helping teams with things that partnerships that may move it forward.
1:02:44
Other times it may mean things around culture or HR.
1:02:49
But, it's really being intentional in terms of the types of decisions you're making and where you're spending your time.
1:02:54
It's not being in every decision with everybody because ultimately, they have to make decisions, too.
1:02:59
One thing we've been doing now that I feel that has really brought the company closer together is uh we did this retreat where it wasn't just the leadership team.
1:03:10
We brought many different people together and I said, you guys come up with the company strategy.
1:03:15
And they were like, and this woman and they were like, what?
1:03:21
And I'm like, they're like, don't you have it?
1:03:22
My younger self would have been like, here it is.
1:03:26
I was like, no, you do it.
1:03:29
And I'll tell you, it was so much better than what I was thinking.
1:03:32
And it just reminded me again, you hire all these smart people, you take all these time vetting them, doing reference checks, let them do their job. Give them a chance.
1:03:43
If it was a sports analogy to shoot the ball, give them a chance to play. You know?
1:03:48
Don't feel like you're keeping them on the bench the whole time and you have to do everything. And give them a shot.
1:03:55
And I I do that a lot more now.
1:03:58
I'm much more intentional with it now. It was great.
1:04:00
We rolled it out to the company at that offsite you were at.
1:04:04
People came away and said it was the most inspiring offsite.
1:04:06
And they were like, you know, that was great. I said, I didn't do it. They did it. It came from the team.
1:04:14
And I think it felt so much more meaningful to to them because it came from them. Mhm.
1:04:18
And it was so much more spot on.
1:04:20
And we and and really what it was around was we've talked about trying to make the world healthier and happier.
1:04:25
We've tried we've talked about as a company trying to be with you every step of the way in your mental journey.
1:04:32
And this was really around how to become how do we become the most impactful consumer mental health company in the world.
1:04:39
And when I sat back and said, that's what we want to become, and the team had kind of been the one synthesizing it, then everyone started mobilizing against it on their own.
1:04:52
And I and I and they had thought about things that I never even thought about.
1:04:56
Because I'm just too far sometimes away from the details.
1:05:00
And then now I I've seen us accelerate.
1:05:03
And I know that motion and muscle can be repeated. Mhm. Right?
1:05:06
And you can bring it to other companies regardless of size.
1:05:10
And I think sometimes as companies get larger, and I've had the fortune of starting my own company where it's like three of us and then it grows to 30 whatever 300 and then to thousands.
1:05:20
And then I've had the fortune of of joining companies later where it's thousands and it becomes hundreds of thousands.
1:05:26
Ultimately that culture is your bedrock.
1:05:29
You know, whether or not how many people you stack on top of it, what you start to set as your foundation will percolate amongst the entire company.
1:05:37
And if you don't do that the right way and if you're not thought, then you may not get the results that you're happy with, right?
1:05:43
And you may create more stressful environments that you just unintentionally didn't think about. Mhm.
1:05:48
And that's where I I really appreciate about when leaders come around, they talk about being more thoughtful in their decision-making process, being more vulnerable, being more open, really thinking about employees' mental health, but then not just talking about it, but then really acting upon it. Totally.
1:06:04
And if you can do that a little bit year after year, right?
1:06:07
You can really create a special special culture and I think they'll do special things. Absolutely.
1:06:14
David, it's been such a joy talking to you today.
1:06:15
I really enjoyed our dialogue around recharging and you know, I'm so grateful for the work you're doing at Calm because I remember being a analyst at Accenture and I was tasked were really good. I was I was okay.
1:06:30
I was tasked with teaching meditation in my spare time and mindfulness in my spare time at the company and I would travel around and I would do lunch time and after work sessions and I couldn't scale myself.
1:06:44
But now thanks to Calm, uh not only am I able to scale myself to more people, but we're able to introduce people to so many amazing hosts and narrators that we have on Calm.
1:06:54
And I think inside an organization you no longer need someone running around the organization physically trying to serve lots of people.
1:07:03
You actually have the ability for everyone to tune in.
1:07:07
And we we end every On Purpose episode with a final five.
1:07:10
These questions have to be answered in one word to one sentence maximum.
1:07:14
So, David Code, these are your final five.
1:07:16
The first question is, what is the best recharge advice you've ever heard in your life? To be more present. Mhm.
1:07:25
I I recognize at times that I've been there, but not really.
1:07:31
And so, you are you do so good at this where you're just so present.
1:07:34
Whether it's one person or hundreds or thousands, I've seen it.
1:07:38
I've been in your auditoriums where you've tried and everyone feels your presence. And so, presence. I like that answer.
1:07:46
Not the part about me, you're very kind, but the because I don't think we realize how draining it is when you're not present.
1:07:52
And you gave that great analogy earlier when you have lots of tabs and apps open. Yeah.
1:07:56
That's when we drain our battery. That's right.
1:07:59
And so, so many of us are draining our battery by thinking, "Oh, I'm here right now with David, but actually my mind's over there, I'll get more done."
1:08:05
And you're actually depleting your battery. So, it's a great answer.
1:08:09
Uh second question, what is the worst advice you've ever heard about recharging yourself?
1:08:17
Sorry, Mom, cuz she's going to be listening and watching.
1:08:20
Uh and my mom I love my mom, so I'm going to start with that.
1:08:22
And she's given me lots of great advice.
1:08:25
But this probably was the worst advice she gave me as a child, which was to power through.
1:08:30
And it's not about powering through, it's really about powering up. Mhm.
1:08:32
And she didn't know, you know, but you know, Mom, I think it was not about powering through.
1:08:39
Question number three, what's your three favorite ways to power up?
1:08:41
So, I have rituals like you.
1:08:46
And my rituals in the morning, uh when I wake up, I don't look at my phone right away.
1:08:52
I actually go downstairs, I start the coffee. I open the window.
1:08:56
And uh I walk outside and I take three breaths.
1:09:01
And it's been something I've been very intentional about doing.
1:09:02
If I'm traveling, I try to open the window, you know, wherever it may be, if you're in apartment or something.
1:09:09
That process starts to center me.
1:09:11
The second I I do is I do a lot of walking meetings.
1:09:15
And so, I'm a big fan of like trying to break things up that help me recharge.
1:09:19
So, people give me energy.
1:09:21
I would say going outside, breathing, people give me energy.
1:09:25
And then lastly, I think similar to yourself, I love to exercise as well, and I've become a lot better at keeping a steady schedule around it.
1:09:33
And even someone said this to me the other day, they said, "Do something every day." Right? And and I'm like, great.
1:09:39
I'm going to do something every day.
1:09:42
And I'm going to be really intentional about it and just keep at it.
1:09:44
Uh some days I'll go to the gym, some days I'll do something at home, it'll be really quick. Um but exercise as well. I love that.
1:09:52
Question number four, what are your three favorite ways to power down?
1:09:57
I turn everything off, meaning the following.
1:10:01
So, it won't be just putting my phone and turning it over, cuz I don't think sometimes that's enough.
1:10:06
I'll just be like, you know what? I'm kind of done.
1:10:08
I wanted to ask you earlier, cuz I'm curious, if you had a day and you didn't use your phone, social media, what does that day look like for you? Those are the best days.
1:10:21
Doesn't happen very often.
1:10:23
I've definitely tried really hard.
1:10:23
One thing I've really focused on is when me and my wife are together in the evening for dinner, and then if we're watching a show or something, is not bringing the phone to those two things.
1:10:31
Because I found myself a lot of the time like finishing off last emails, messaging while we're having dinner.
1:10:37
And then when you're watching a show, you're distracted.
1:10:39
And then you watch your your partner get distracted.
1:10:42
And then you're like mad at them for getting distracted.
1:10:46
But then when they put their phone down, you've got yours up and they're mad at you for getting distracted.
1:10:49
I was like, what are we doing here? Yeah.
1:10:50
And I was starting to notice just my attention span just dropping.
1:10:54
I've I've noticed that a lot in the last 12 months more than any time before and I've realized so much of it is because of just the speed of consumption.
1:11:04
So now it's not even that we're consuming a lot, we're consuming a lot at a really fast rate.
1:11:11
And so you're just making it easier for your mind to get two seconds of everything.
1:11:15
And so for me, I try make my weekends very phone-free because weekdays I am on my phone.
1:11:24
I've also found that even when I'm with my team, if I can have my laptop in the room but my laptop's not connected to messaging apps and then my phone's not in the room, I actually find I'm better with my team.
1:11:34
So I can still do email, I can still do work on my laptop but it's not wired up to WhatsApp, it's not wired up to text message. I don't need it.
1:11:40
And so I've been trying to leave my phone actually out of my hand when I'm not traveling.
1:11:47
If I'm going out for work or driving, of course I need my phone but if I'm in the office, I don't need my phone on me in meetings or in between meetings actually.
1:11:57
And all of this is stuff I'm still working on too because I find myself go through ups and downs with it.
1:12:03
There are times when I'm brilliant at it.
1:12:04
I also follow you, I don't keep my phone in my bedroom, don't look at it first thing in the morning.
1:12:09
But I also have days where I break that completely when I'm traveling and so I don't want to make anyone feel like I've got it down or perfect cuz I haven't.
1:12:17
And I think it's almost like peaks and troughs.
1:12:19
There's always a a good day and a bad week and a good week and a bad day. That's brilliant. That's brilliant.
1:12:27
Uh fifth and final question to David Coe, if you could create one law that everyone in the world had to follow, what would it be?
1:12:34
Kids have to go to gym five days and they know there's physical exercise and it's just kind of like it's just understood.
1:12:41
Why can't we take some of that time for children to also better understand their own mental health and to teach them about their mental health because we know so much of this starts early just like it started with myself at 14.
1:12:51
If I had that vocabulary at 14, I probably would have developed better kind of healthy behaviors at 14 and did that as I turned into a young adult.
1:13:01
So, I would love to take a little bit of time.
1:13:04
Doesn't have to be all the time.
1:13:05
Could be a carve outs, maybe once, twice, three times a week where we educate our children and check up on them on their mental health or their battery and ask them the question. I love that.
1:13:15
What a great little that would that would have a big impact on the world.
1:13:18
The book is called recharge.
1:13:21
Got interviews with everyone from Randall Park to Macklemore.
1:13:23
It's a brilliant book, so fascinating. I love it. I love the format. I love the format. The format's fantastic.
1:13:29
Like you sat down with experts, with rappers, with rebels, innovators, thought leaders and you put together this beautiful book called recharge.
1:13:38
David, I'm so grateful that you put it together.
1:13:40
I'm so grateful we connected.
1:13:42
Yeah, and I'm and thank you for taking the time having me here.
1:13:44
Thank you for talking about the book.
1:13:46
It's it's it's something I'm so proud of.
1:13:48
Uh I hope people people get some you know, really get something out of it.
1:13:53
We talked to a lot of different folks.
1:13:56
Like you said, uh like Randall who's you know, you know as well and many other folks there. Delilah.
1:14:03
And they just talked about so many amazing things.
1:14:04
And I um I was really touched by talking to each and every one of them.
1:14:09
I was honored to hear their stories.
1:14:12
And it just made me a better person.
1:14:12
It also has helped me in my mental health journey and I hope it helps some other people as well.
1:14:17
David, thank you so much.
1:14:19
Is there anything I didn't ask you that you really want to touch on?
1:14:21
Something that's on your heart or mind that's calling for you to share?
1:14:23
I'd love for you to share it.
1:14:24
You never asked me how my battery is. How's your battery?
1:14:30
I I would tell you my battery is at 100 over 100% cuz I got to spend time with you. And you're too kind. No, no.
1:14:35
And and I'll tell you conversations like this just recharge and energize me.
1:14:43
I I love the fact that we got to sit I I've loved the fact that I got to know you personally and professionally.
1:14:47
I'm so grateful for our friendship, your mentorship, your words of wisdom.
1:14:53
I know how many millions of people you affect every day.
1:14:54
I mean, over 50 million people on Calm, the entire employee base of Calm, uh really just uh I can't tell you the impact you've made both uh on us on a personal and professional front. So, thank you.
1:15:09
I want to ask you, how's your battery? Do you know what?
1:15:11
I and I'm not just saying this cuz you're here and I and I really do mean it.
1:15:14
You recharged my battery, too.
1:15:16
Like this conversation is I'd say before you came in today, I was probably at like a 60. Yeah.
1:15:21
I've had a lot of social events in the past couple of weeks.
1:15:25
Just we had Diwali, which is our Yes.
1:15:29
beautiful festival every year.
1:15:29
We had There was just so much going on and all good stuff.
1:15:32
All stuff I wanted to go to. Yeah.
1:15:35
But I'm very disciplined about my sleep all year round.
1:15:37
And at this time of year, I kind of let go a little bit because there are so many wonderful events that I get invited And so I've been feeling a bit And as soon as you came in, you took me from a 60 to a 95 easily.
1:15:52
And honestly, it's this conversation because it felt so real, so authentic, so genuine.
1:15:56
I felt like again, you were really present.
1:15:58
And I think that's what we don't realize.
1:16:00
When you're present with someone, you're charging them up Yeah.
1:16:03
while you're being charged.
1:16:03
And that's such a superpower that often we think, oh, if I'm charging someone else up, I'm losing energy. Mhm. But that's not true.
1:16:12
If you're charging someone else else up by being present, you're getting charged up and so are they.
1:16:18
And we've both felt that today.
1:16:20
And I and I genuinely felt that today.
1:16:22
And honestly, Calm has just been such a brilliant partner.
1:16:24
It's the team I love working with every day, whether it's the content team, the team that we work with in the studio, the team that I get to see once a year, the leadership.
1:16:35
Everyone walks the talk there and it's it's so impressive to me Thank you.
1:16:41
because I felt it from the moment I started doing zooms and meetings with everyone at Calm and it's it's remarkable what you're all doing and I I can't wait to be a part of the future.
1:16:50
So, congratulations and it's just the beginning.
1:16:52
I think we're just we're just getting started. So, I appreciate it. Thank you, Jay. David.
1:16:56
Thanks for having me on again. so much.
1:16:58
If this year you're trying to live longer, live happier, live healthier, go and check out my conversation with the world's biggest longevity doctor, Peter Attia, on how to slow down aging and why your emotional health is directly impacting your physical health.
1:17:15
Acknowledge that there is surprisingly little known about the relationship between nutrition and health and people are going to be shocked to hear that cuz I think most people think the exact opposite.