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David Gelb directed Jiro Dreams of Sushi and the show Chef's Table, and that's what this conversation's all about.
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It's about the art of making documentaries, telling stories, bringing people to life.
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Like he says that whenever you're writing a scene, thinking one up, a character should come into a scene wanting one thing and then leave with something else.
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And then also, you got to remember that David's spent about as much time with the world's top chefs as anybody on planet Earth.
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So I had to ask, what are the lessons that you've learned from them?
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And how those lessons seeped into your work?
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Tell me about character and how you've chosen to focus on character and bring individual people to life.
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Well, I think that the process of getting to make Jiro Dreams of Sushi was where I learned the lesson about how it's it's character. It's character first.
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And I think that's true of all good storytelling and and and and good movies or shows is it's about a character.
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I started thinking that I was going to make a movie about a subject, about sushi, but then I realized like no, I'm actually making a movie about people.
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>> And we did there going to be three or four people that you were going to do. >> Originally, yeah.
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Originally, it was going to be different sushi shops and it's going to be a lot about the information about how different chefs make sushi and the different styles of sushi, and I I realized as I was going through the process of making little shorts, like little test shorts, that it was the characters that were the most interesting part of it.
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And so through the character that's where the the information about sushi that people remember comes out of it.
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So it isn't like I'm not going to go step by step and explain how to make the egg sushi, but I will show you how it took them to do 200 times to do it before he got the approval of the master and the how he wept when he finally got it right, and then that is much more kind of memorable and powerful than explaining what it is.
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So then when you see that egg sushi land on the uh on the on the bar at the end you're like, wow, like I there's emotion, character emotion infused in that thing.
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But the heart of it is the origin story.
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As you know, I I love um comic books and I grew up reading comic books.
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And you know, every And I you know, I did the Stan Lee documentary and you know, it's all about the origin story.
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That's where the audience gets hooked, and that's what informs what is this superhero about and why is uh why it why are they doing what they do.
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And um if you go to uh Spider-Man, you know, it's this famous quote, like with great power must come great responsibility, right?
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And so, you know, he's a teenager.
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You know, actually Spider-Man was the first It was the first superhero that was like a teenager.
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Um you know, Batman's like this, you know, billionaire.
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You got um uh Superman, you know, alien who's a reporter.
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Um but Spider-Man's kind of this nerd who just wants to be cool.
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You know, he's getting bullied and everything.
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He gets these powers and he's like, oh wow, like what am I going to use them for? He starts wrestling.
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That's where he That's where I put the costume comes from.
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It's like a lucha libre style uh costume.
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And um he's like doing it for himself, you know?
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And the origin story of Spider-Man is that he lets this bad guy, you know, this there's like a burglar somebody robs something.
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I can't remember exactly what it is, but that he he Spider-Man doesn't stop him.
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He's like, oh, that's someone else's job.
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And then that guy ends up, you know, killing his uncle, and he realizes that, you know, the power doesn't mean anything unless you're using it with purpose and with responsibility.
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And so, in the case of Jiro, in the case of any of our characters on Chef's Table, in the case of Stanley themselves, I think that the origin story is the key to understanding that character's motivation.
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And then when you care about that and you understand that, then we the the other mannerisms, what they do and the craft and all these other things start to matter a lot more.
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And when you think about that story and the character and what you're trying to build, how much of that is planned, I got a sense of what this is going to be, and then how much of it sort of emerges later on?
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So, another example is in the Chef's Table episode about Grant Achatz in Chicago. Here you got a chef. What do chefs do? They taste things.
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Chef loses sense of taste. Da na na nan. >> Yeah.
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>> Like how much of that is, all right, we got our game plan here, >> Mhm.
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versus whoa, this thing happened.
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Of course we're going to make that the central through line of the story. >> Right.
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So, yes, that was it in in season 2, episode 1, I believe is Grant.
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Um that was like really beautifully done episode.
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It was directed by Brian McGinn.
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Um and I I his approach on I mean, first off, the hook is so clear.
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Chef loses his sense of taste.
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What does he do about it?
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There's also enough written about him that the team is able to research uh an outline that kind of tells his life story as we know it.
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But then in the process of Chef's Table and, you know, all of the directors on the show, whether it's myself or Brian or Clay Jeter, you know, we do very long interviews.
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Um and there are other directors, too.
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All Everybody has their own style. >> With the subjects. Yeah, yeah.
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The long interviews with the subject, and we let the we kind of go through the story as they've told it before, as they like to tell it.
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And then we ask very probing and personal questions that might reframe the way that they tell the story.
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And then there are discoveries.
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We come in prepared with what we think it's about, but there's always room to learn more, and that kind of like exploration is uh is key.
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And that's also why a lot of the chefs say that it's kind of like therapy being on the show, because we're asking them more questions for longer.
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You know, other food shows come in, you know, for an hour or so, or they have historically come in, you know, they shoot a little bit and then they kind of move on.
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In our case, you know, we're there for 2 weeks.
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We're building like a real relationship and rapport.
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We're asking these long questions.
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We're doing these long interviews multiple times.
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And they just things just start to kind of open up and they start to kind of make these connections that would not be unlike, I think, being in therapy. Yeah. Yeah.
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So as you think about your style, which with Jiro, you see what emerges, and then you see how that ends up in Chef's Table, and all this to say, what are the mantras that you find yourself repeating?
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Like this is my style, these are the core things that I'm always trying to focus on. >> Yes.
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The chords I'm always trying to hit. Yeah.
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So, as you guys said, it's origin story.
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It's um why do they do what they It's not just about how they do it, it's why they do it.
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And discovering that, that's kind of like the mystery of the episode in a lot of ways.
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And so, we're trying to kind of peel back the onion and reveal the layers of what is the reason that the person does this.
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What are the moments that they like did it the wrong way and what did they learn to discover the real reason, the real the best reason for why they do what they do.
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Um and so that's it's this character first, origin story, why do they do what they do kind of thing.
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Um and then the other tenets of the show are like these long kind of uh very personal interviews.
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All of our directors, um we give a lot of ourselves in the interview.
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And so, you know, if we want them to tell us about the hardest moments in our lives, sometimes we have to relate to those things and talk about ourselves a little bit, and it becomes this kind of conversation where what you give, you that that's the energy that you get back. Um so that's also key.
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Um and then also, you know, our style of shooting, it's going back to Jiro Dreams of Sushi, it's always been about elevating our craft as best as we can, and that then reflects their craft.
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>> Yeah, I mean, you could totally see that with Jiro.
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Like, you know, you're in this guy's presence.
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This guy is a master of the craft.
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This was what, probably your first big documentary, right? Yeah.
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And now you got to rise up to that, huh?
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Yeah, they're bringing their A-game, you know, he they're they're in pursuit of perfection or excellence.
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We want to bring in the best that we can bear.
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And and and so, we're bringing in all the tools of cinema to try to like tell that story as best as we can.
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>> So what does that mean, the tools of cinema?
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>> The tools of cinema being um the uh cinematography, the um the environment and feeling of the shoot itself, um and the comfort that we can let the sh- the chef be themselves in that way.
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Um and it's also in the music.
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You know, so so Jiro became kind of like the template for what we were trying to do with Chef's Table, which then it you know, kind of evolved into its own style.
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But on Jiro, it was like we want to bring in at the time it was the red camera, the red one camera, which was like the breakthrough digital cinema camera.
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Um we wanted to have uh music that is reflective of his brilliance in a way.
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So, you know, we're using um you know, some of the like great classical standards.
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Um you know, his his sushi is compared to uh a concerto at one point.
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So, we like played this beautiful Mozart concerto to kind of like give that feeling.
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Um Philip Glass music, you know, and Philip Glass is great because of Jiro's mantra is to with each day he's trying to improve just a little bit and elevate um or it's two steps forward and one step back.
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If you listen to the music of Philip Glass, there's kind of a refrain that repeats and repeats and then escalates and then it goes into a new key and it repeats and escalates and uh I don't want to butcher uh the interpretation of Philip Glass's music and but he really is a genius and so we're like, okay, let's bring that kind of music.
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And then um the composers was we've done a lot of original music on Chef's Table um kind of bring that philosophy as best as they can, too.
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How do you go about describing the music that you want?
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I I'm I'm very fortunate in that I have this team, you know, that we've worked together for a long time.
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So, some of the um directors, the cinematographers, um I've known them for a long time and our editors I've known for a long time, some of them.
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Um in the case of Jiro Dreams of Sushi, like that was my high school roommate, Brandon Driscoll LeFrancier was the editor of it and like we love this kind of feeling of like the Philip Glass music and stuff.
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And so, in the edit, we're putting in temp music that feels right.
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And so, if we're aligned in taste, and actually if you if you're watching the Oscars, you know, what or actually I don't think it was at the Oscars, but it was a video of Ryan Coogler giving advice to young filmmakers.
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And it's about like kind of like forming a squad of people that are kind of at a similar level, that have similar taste, and then you guys can kind of reference the same sort of language.
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Like these are the movies that you kind of share the thing.
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And you don't have to like all the same stuff. And that's kind of cool.
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The differences of taste is actually where you can kind of stretch and grow in different directions. But we audition music. It's auditioning.
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You know, we we we try a track, we see how it feels, um and then you kind of feel that energy.
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The first thing I do when I take on a new project is I just start building a playlist. Oh, really?
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>> Then I share that playlist with the editor.
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And then from there, you know, some of those pieces might become temp.
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The editor then also might be inspired by other pieces that are kind of in that sonic kind of landscape and then bring some things that I hadn't heard before that can be really cool and exciting.
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And uh that's how we kind of create like a vibe or like a feeling for what the new thing is going to be.
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Tell me about this mantra of passion, not perfection. Mhm.
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Well, as Jiro aptly puts it and I it is that, you know, perfection is unattainable.
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It's something that you can chase, but the closer you think that you get, the further away you realize you are.
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And that's about approaching something with sort of a humility that there is room to grow.
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Anybody who says that their work is perfect, I I don't know.
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I don't know how you grow from there.
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So, that you know, that's not really the artistic approach, I don't think.
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I think the great great artists are always seeking uh a higher level.
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Ira Glass actually says it really really well cuz he's like, you know, you have Taste Gap. Exactly, the taste gap.
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You have this level of taste and you have to do the reps to build your skills so you can reach that level of taste.
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And uh a lot of people quit because it's like it's so painful to work hard on something and it doesn't reach your level of taste.
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But you have to be okay with that and then just do the next thing and the next thing and the next thing and keep trying.
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How do you go about sort of increasing the scope of your palate, leveling up your taste?
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Like is that a conscious thing that you feel like is part of your craft? >> It it has to be.
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I mean, I know what I like and you know, I love there are a lot of movies and documentaries that I absolutely love and I fanboy out over and I you know, my like for example, when I was making Jiro Dreams of Sushi, I was kind of chasing Fog of War, which has an incredible original Philip Glass score.
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In fact, we even licensed a piece from that in in in Jiro from from Fog of War.
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Um So, there are movies that I love.
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Like I was obsessed with The Hours.
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I've been obsessed with these different films and I was like, I want to bring some of those feelings and my misinterpretation of them or that they just becomes original when you're chasing the thing and but you're making it about something else.
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And then, you know, Jiro was it was the first movie of buying that people had really seen, but I had done like a lot of small shorts and various things and and like to try to get to that kind of level where I was able to get close to the taste gap.
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And then therapy helps, too.
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Therapy helps because it's like if you start to get really down on yourself, um cuz it's disappoint you there's disap- creative process is full of disappointment.
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For me, the most disappointing part So, here's here's how it kind of works in terms of like the ups and downs and I think a lot of filmmakers >> Like the emotional arc.
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Yeah, the emotional arc of making is like you're shooting the thing, you have your dailies and you're like, wow, these shots are awesome. Like this is so awesome. It's great.
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You make your little trailer and it's like, this is so [ __ ] cool.
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Then you make your assembly where you have the full length thing laid out and it is terrible.
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>> worst thing you've ever seen.
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>> seen it and you're like, I hate myself. Like I am so bad.
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Um There's no music, there's no color correction.
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>> it doesn't it just does not work and it's not what you thought it was going to be.
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And then that's where the process of editing and you just have to just like go to see your therapist if you're able to have one and just be like, you're okay, you're not a failure.
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Like the it's not where you want it to be now, but that's not because you're bad.
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You just have to just keep on working at it and then it kind of it's not going to be what you first set out for it to be.
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It's going to be somewhere in a new place.
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It's going to be somewhere in the middle.
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And then you have to finish the project and then move on to another project.
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The pitfall is getting stuck on one project forever.
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And cuz it's never good enough, you just have to accept it and move on.
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You know, you just said that it'll be something else.
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The way that I think about that is when you start a creative project, it's like you us, David.
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We are the sort of masters of the vision, right?
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So, this is David's vision.
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And so, you go and you go and you go.
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And I think that there's a moment where like the table turns and all of a sudden the vision is like the essence of the thing that you're creating and now all of a sudden you have to start listening to that.
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And now you are surrendered.
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You're a passenger on the train and now the thing that you're making is actually driving it and you need to learn how to listen to it. Yeah.
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And it's this crazy tables have turned moment that happens in so many creative projects I've worked on.
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And I think that that's the healthy, correct approach because if you keep on trying to force your original template, especially in documentary, if it's about a real person or a real thing, and the story is not turning out to be what you thought it was, you have to have the humility to be able to then follow that.
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We always say lean into the truth.
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You know, it's it's it's >> What's an example of that?
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>> Example of leaning to the truth is like, okay, let's say I had that story a story about, you know, what what I what I thought that the origin story, what I thought that the story was really about.
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And then you discover that, wait a minute, it's not really exactly that.
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If you're going to then kind of edit the dialogue and just try to >> shoehorn it.
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>> to fabricate it into what you needed it or what you wanted it to be, then that the authenticity of the project kind of goes away and and the audience can see through it and it's not satisfying for them.
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So, you know, if things are not what you thought it was, you just go into what it actually is.
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You discover what it is and then you make the movie about that.
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And uh how do you think about what you're getting in shots when you first do the shot versus like creating space later on for going back and getting more B-roll after maybe you've done a first edit?
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The the great saying from the cinematographer Cesar Charlone that is part of one of our mantras is it's quantity first, actually. Huh. You have to shoot a lot.
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And don't just do the same takes over and over of the same thing.
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Shoot a great variety of things.
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And then you'll have more choices in the edit and then you start to really see what's working and then you'll know where the holes are.
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You'll be like, oh, I kind of wish I had a shot of this.
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You kind of then find a list of things, you kind of discover the style that's working and then you go back out and you do that.
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Jiro was shot in two different stages.
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Shot the whole thing or or what I thought was going to be the whole thing in a month.
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Went through the despair of the assembly.
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Then found where the real holes were, the things that were missing, the types of shots that were working, that were not working, and then I was able to kind of build the second half of of the movie.
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That's really the key is uh is to shoot a lot and give yourself lots of choices in the edit.
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You know, you know, when you look at directors who do things in one-ers and that, you know, where they shoot the one shot throughout the entire thing, it's a gamble.
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It's a big risk because the pacing of the moment that you have on set when you're shooting a thing in the field or whatever, the timing in your mind when you're filming the thing is completely different from how it plays actually when you're in Right. the editing room.
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From doing all these episodes, how have you refined your sense of what makes for a good introduction?
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How to pull somebody into a piece?
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You know, I think that one thing that is nice is you're not on YouTube.
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So, like, you don't have to do it in 10 seconds, but you definitely have to do it in 10 minutes, right? >> Yeah.
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So, you know, we're not on YouTube, but we are on Netflix.
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And the the competition on Netflix, the easiness It isn't like There was a store, it was called Blockbuster, and you go in and you rent your movie. >> Video, guy.
20:09
Hollywood Video, you rent your movie, and you're going to watch that movie no matter what, right?
20:13
Cuz that's what you have. Yeah.
20:15
Um We rented the same four movies every time.
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>> Yeah, well, you got four, so then you have four choices, but if something is boring, you're going to switch to the other thing.
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In the case of Netflix, it is so easy that if you're bored for 1 second, you're going to switch it.
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And I mean, on YouTube, that's even I'm sure that the attention span you're trying to grab is is is is even shorter term.
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And grabbing the attention, the great example of this is in the James Bond films. Okay.
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So, you know, you're going to have a complex plot, a weaving of deception and who the reveal of who the real bad guy is, and you know, the mystery of it all.
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But in every Bond movie, it's the cold open.
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They drop you into the action immediately. >> Yeah, immediately.
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It's like some crazy action scene, and you're just like gripped.
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You're gripped by the character, you're gripped by the action that's happening.
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And, you know, somewhere in that action, there might be something that's thematic because James We'll call I can call him James. >> Yeah, James. James Our dear friend.
21:09
>> The double-0 seven will um will he'll usually like achieve whatever his goal is, but at some kind of cost, there's some kind of thematic thing that happens.
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And then We're talking about the good ones. Dude, I don't know.
21:19
I haven't seen every single Bond movie, but then it takes you into this opening credit sequence and stuff.
21:23
And that's actually how I came up with the format of an opening hook, then the opening credits, and then we kind of start the episode in earnest.
21:34
Um and that's something that we did on on Jiro.
21:35
When Jiro when we first open on Jiro, you kind of see this uh peaceful shots of the fountain, and he's writing his name on a piece of paper.
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So, it's not exactly Bond action, but he's posing a philosophical question of what is deliciousness? Like, what does it mean?
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You know, he dreams of sushi.
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Like, we're kind of giving you a hook into the character about about a theme that like, oh, I want to know more about this guy.
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And so, for each of the Chef's Table episodes, we try to open like with a hook.
22:06
The Massimo Bottura episode, um we immediately open with the earthquake that destroys all the Parmesan and all the Parmigiano-Reggiano wheels in like Modena.
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And then his uh journey to try to create a recipe that will inspire people to buy as much Parmigiano-Reggiano as possible so they could like, you know, try to make money off of the broken wheels and then move on. And uh it's a hook.
22:28
It doesn't even necessarily have to fit into the overall episode, but it gives you something to grab on to with that character.
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And usually we we allow for like a minute or 2 minutes on that um thing, and then it hits you with the with the opening credits.
22:44
>> When it's over the top and it just doesn't work, it's I don't know, cheesy or trying too hard, what do you think is going on there?
22:52
It means we're not leaning into the truth.
22:53
It means that we're trying to force it into a thing.
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We're trying to force something into it.
22:57
Ultimately, the thing that I think hooks an audience is interest in the character.
23:05
I'm going to especially our show, which is about Every episode is about a specific character, right?
23:08
I mean, if you look at also like Stanley, it's about a guy, you know, it's like In the Stanley documentary, I I just go the idea of Spider-Man.
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Like, where does the idea of Spider-Man come from?
23:19
Immediately like hook them with that, and then we kind of then build the story.
23:23
Um Well, few of the things you're saying, where does the idea of Spider-Man come from? Like, I hear that. Super simple. Instantly intriguing. Yeah.
23:30
And also just reaches a lot of people, right?
23:34
It's not like this scene from like this obscure person.
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Like, this is Spider-Man.
23:39
Everyone knows Spider-Man.
23:40
Yeah, cuz you can't be like, I you know, Stanley's very much an oral history cuz he's done so many interviews.
23:44
We kind of piece together He died before He died before we made the film.
23:48
So, but he left a trove of his oral history.
23:50
I mean, he has done so many interviews over the years.
23:55
Um that we can make a hit we can use editorial to have him tell his own story.
24:02
But if you go start with like, yeah, I was born in a you know, in in in apartment on the Upper West Side and da da da.
24:08
No, you have to just grab the audience, give them immediately the reason for why they're watching this thing.
24:13
And that's what I need as a you know, person who likes to watch things and and I I want to be hooked immediately.
24:19
I need a reason that I'm going to continue watching this thing.
24:23
And then, we talk about beginnings.
24:23
What matters for endings as you think about tying the knot, dotting the Ts, crossing the Is.
24:29
>> Well, I think it's just like, what does it all mean?
24:30
I mean, why why did I watch all of this?
24:33
Or what is the conclusion? What is the conclusion?
24:37
I mean, landing the ending is the most important thing, and I would strongly recommend that you figure that out early in the process, as early in the process as you can in the editorial process.
24:47
Cuz that way you know where you're going.
24:50
Um in the case of Jiro Dreams of Sushi, I knew that we had a story here about a you know, the greatest sushi chef ever.
24:58
His son now is working in the restaurant.
25:00
That was actually a discovery that we made in the first phase of shooting.
25:02
It was like, oh, wait, actually there's a great story here about living in your dad's shadow a little bit.
25:07
How are we going to fill those shoes?
25:09
And that's something that's very personal to me, you know, in and in my family over generations, you know, and and I'm I'm lucky for this.
25:15
But, you know, my grandfather was the managing editor of the New York Times.
25:19
Then my dad, you know, he wanted My grandfather would say uh you can do anything in the world you want, just be the best at it.
25:27
Which is, you know, stressful.
25:31
Um So, my So, my dad uh you know, he then became the over, you know, years of working in classical music and managing classical musicians, and then he was he became the general manager of the Metropolitan Opera.
25:44
And now, you know, here I am, another generation, and like, where am I going to find my place in, you know, in this family or whatever.
25:54
That parallels directly with Yoshikazu, Jiro's son, being like, how do I fill those shoes?
26:00
Then we discover that wait a minute, we found somewhere in there that Yoshikazu was the one that served the Michelin stars.
26:06
So, we have proof that that kind of transfer happened, that Yoshikazu is worthy of of of the mantle.
26:11
And so, then we kind of build that kind of as the ending.
26:16
But the real lesson I mean, I think it's like the lesson.
26:20
The lesson in Jiro Dreams of Sushi is just keep going, and the journey is the destination, you know?
26:27
It's the the the the effort itself is what makes it worth it more so than Michelin stars or whatever.
26:35
It's about just living a life where you do, and you chase an unattainable dream, and that in itself is like a beautiful life.
26:44
And how deliberate are you about lessons?
26:48
Like, when are lessons important in a documentary-style film, and when do you actually want to take your hand off the wheel and say, I don't know what the lessons are.
26:58
For example, I just watched uh Spirited Away. Watched it last night.
27:02
And, you know, I think maybe there's a lesson in there of like the little girl, she's just super optimistic about everything and just kind of constantly happy.
27:11
And then there's like the the the the No-Face spirit that comes in, and she's like, oh, yeah, just like come on in or whatever. But like, I don't know.
27:20
I think that one thing that's nice about that movie I don't know that that lesson's super clear.
27:26
So, when do you want a super clear lesson, and when don't you?
27:29
>> Okay, so I also love Spirited Away.
27:30
And it's a movie that I've thought a great deal about, actually.
27:34
Um because I love the Miyazaki movies, of course, but that one in particular is really really interesting.
27:41
And I'll challenge a couple of your assumptions on that, okay?
27:46
Chihiro is actually not In the beginning of the movie, she's pissed because they're moving.
27:50
And she's depressed, she's going to have to make new friends, new school.
27:53
And that's something that a lot of young people can identify with, okay?
27:57
So, she's anxious about that thing, right?
27:59
They go to um they find a shrine, and the parents are like all excited about it, but she's like, oh, she's anxious.
28:06
She's like, this is also new and weird.
28:08
And the parents are eating the food and stuff, remember?
28:10
So, then she is now thrust into Okay, she thought that she was going to have a tough time just like going to school.
28:17
Now, she is a cleaning lady at a spa for spirits and demons, okay?
28:24
She has to accept that she's not going to get what she wants here, and has to just do the hard work to to work through it.
28:31
And that's my interpretation.
28:33
I think other people will say other things about it.
28:34
But that's where, you know, a great filmmaker kind of can layer it in in this way where it leaves it up to the audience, but there are enough clues that we can kind of understand >> And what it is.
28:45
>> In that movie, I guess what I was trying to get at is there's all of these moments in the movie where other people are just terrified, and she's just like, oh, come in.
28:52
Like, even with No-Face, people are so scared of No-Face. >> Right.
28:56
And then she's like, come on the train and like, behave yourself, No-Face. >> That's right.
28:59
That's the special power of being the outsider, in a way.
29:01
She hasn't been like conformed to the power dynamics of that place.
29:05
So, in a way, like her outsiderness kind of becomes a special power.
29:13
And I think that that's true for like Alice in Alice in Wonderland, you know, which is sort of like I feel like this is kind of a new version of that in a lot of ways.
29:20
That's what we were talking about with the theme, and when don't you want to be too explicit?
29:25
Like even that, I think we could probably talk for another hour about it.
29:28
Because Miyazaki's not like, this is what the movie's about, right? >> Mhm.
29:33
So, in some ways, art is better when there's a sort of I want to use the word ambiguous theme that people can sort of chew on for themselves.
29:45
Kind of like a Zen koan, right?
29:46
Like it doesn't just have like a clear thing.
29:48
But then at other times, like with Jiro, it really is a story of persistence and it's a story of dedication and it's a story of craftsmanship that is uniquely Japanese, which is I think part of the reason why it resonated so much for me and other people in America were like, "I've never seen somebody work this hard on one thing in my entire life. Oh my goodness." But it's a clear theme.
30:07
It works, but it's very different. >> Yeah. Yeah.
30:10
And the other thing that's great about the Miyazaki movies is that the plot goal is very clear.
30:14
Like, "Hmm, she's stuck in this crazy place.
30:16
She needs to get her parents back and and get back to the real world, which she's not going to take for granted anymore because she's like, 'Whoa, this was really crazy.'"
30:23
And then now she's equipped to like the challenge of going to school like doesn't seem that scary.
30:29
Going to a new school doesn't seem that scary anymore.
30:30
Um the challenge in a lot of the Chef's Table episodes and particularly in Jiro is what It isn't like they're practicing for the sushi competition and like, you know, it's like the the World Series of Sushi and they have to train.
30:42
It's not like a sports movie like that or something like that.
30:45
It's like what is the goal?
30:47
And um we kind of have to lay that out kind of clearly that the goal is that you seek perfection even though you're never going to get there.
30:56
But how can a person have the patience to do that?
31:00
And uh you kind of just get to watch it happen and I think that that's one of the things like we aspire to that.
31:05
But there's also a whole thing about parenting where he's absent for the kids kind of growing up and there are great sacrifices in this life of craft.
31:13
And uh so some people see it as kind of a It's sad at times.
31:17
There was a part where Jiro says uh one time I was back on a Sunday and Takashi, the younger son, like woke up and he was like, "Mom, Mom, there's a strange man in the house." And it was him.
31:29
It was It was his own father.
31:29
He just didn't recognize him because he was gone at work all the time.
31:32
And he tells it like it's a funny story and it is funny, but it's like whoa, like that's sad.
31:39
And so that's kind of the nuance is the sacrifice of choosing that life.
31:44
And we realized that, you know, Jiro, he grew up and his dad was an alcoholic and died at a young age and he didn't know He doesn't know anything He doesn't know how to be a dad, you know?
31:54
And so um in the the overarching goal of like, "I want to make the best sushi ever and I want to be better and do better and do better and do better."
32:03
Um there are journeys and lessons along the way and they should just kind of come out naturally, I think.
32:10
Um the different acts of it of Each act, I think, has a lesson.
32:17
Um and at somewhere in the midpoint of the movie there might be a false victory.
32:21
It's where you think, and I think a lot of great films, and again, I don't look at documentary structure at any differently than I would look at like a feature feature film structure.
32:31
The midpoint it's there's something where you think that we've done it, but actually we've done it the wrong way or we've overseen the whole we've overlooked the whole point of the whole thing.
32:40
And then that is going to be what's going to propel us towards the end of the movie.
32:44
That pitfall, that false victory, is going to make the protagonist feel at rest for a moment while things swirl and build against them.
32:53
And then they have to get through that.
32:55
They have to discover the true meaning of the lesson of the movie. Oh, that's fantastic.
33:00
So tell me more about the false victory.
33:02
Where does that show up in in feature film? I mean, let's see.
33:07
Like what's a what's a good example of that?
33:08
In Titanic, it's like the unlikely, you know, it's like you're rooting for Leo and, you know, she's just not happy in this rich person's world and they're having fun under deck and everything is like going swimmingly, pun.
33:21
Uh No, everything's going great They're floating on life.
33:25
>> Yeah, because like they're not supposed to be in this world together and and and here they are um falling in love.
33:30
And then they they they they uh make love in the car and the hand on the thing and it's like draw me, you know, like you're like you're you're French girls and it's like, "Oh my god, this is like beautiful."
33:39
Meanwhile the iceberg is about to hit the boat.
33:42
So they're the audience and they are lulled into a sense of oh, it's working.
33:46
Like that's the false victory.
33:49
Like the victory is a personal victory for them, but ultimately things are about to get a hell of a lot worse.
33:55
In case Titanic, they really things kind of go downhill. Not spoiler alert.
34:01
But uh that's That's the kind of arc that that I think works in a lot of films.
34:06
Um Well, in Train Dreams, which we were talking about right before we started, there was I remember I was at the theater and there's a narrator.
34:12
And uh it's about 35 minutes into the film and the narrator says, "Little did he know that he would look back on these years as some of the best of his life."
34:25
Something like >> Yeah, that's like foreshadowing that like >> And I'm sitting in my seat and I'm just like, "No."
34:29
But then it's another 10 minutes before before the big event happens.
34:35
And so you know that something is going to go wrong and you can feel it in your stomach when you're watching a movie.
34:42
>> I wonder if that was in the original script or if they were like, "We need something to just keep the audience cuz otherwise if also everything seems so nice and and happy, like where is the dramatic tension?"
34:54
In Titanic we know the boat is going to sink, you know?
34:59
Lord of the Rings is a great one.
34:59
The the the the false victory there, I mean, each one has its own arc, but like if you're just looking at the Fellowship of the Ring, the fellowship is formed.
35:08
And like we're out there like they all have their skills, they're able to fight the orcs or whatever, but ultimately the ring is going to divide them, you know?
35:18
And then things, you know, Boromir gets all ringed out and things really go badly.
35:22
Um or they're going to make it through the What is it?
35:27
Through the the Mines of Moria and they're they're they're they're It seems like they're going to be okay.
35:32
There's this beautiful moment where it's like, you know, young Frodo like you must do what you know, make the best of the time that we had that's given to us.
35:39
And it's like, "Oh wow, like we're feeling like pretty good there."
35:40
And then oops, like the helmet goes down and it's an insane chase and then we lose Gandalf, you know?
35:47
So we feel like we're safe and then things just go bad.
35:50
I mean, I a lot of screenwriters and the people in a lot I know a lot of writers listen to this podcast are going to hate this.
36:00
I I love the book um Save the Cat by Blake Snyder, which just lays it out in the most clear way and where it literally has I mean, he even has page numbers of when these things should happen.
36:14
So he's like overly prescriptive, but you can see he breaks down movies in a really um interesting way where you can see all of the kind of moments that the movie requires that then breaks us into the second act or propels us into the third act.
36:28
This moment, the dark night of the soul, is like so important and that's when, you know, the hero when all is lost.
36:34
You've we've had this false victory or this midpoint, things get a hell of a lot worse, and then we're down in the lowest part, all is lost, and then the hero um has to look within his or herself and figure out what is the lesson that they were supposed to have taken from that character that died before or whatever the thing is.
36:53
And then they're able to look at the situation in a in a new way and then that's what propels them into the third act and that final action that'll get us, you know, to the to the ending.
37:04
It's interesting that you mentioned two principles and one was like a fake victory and then another one was this sort of darkness and despair, but not all is lost.
37:16
There's still this glimmer of hope.
37:16
The last piece is the hope.
37:17
There's like They're almost perfect opposites. All is lost. Yeah, exactly.
37:21
But that's >> what makes, you know, a movie like fun to watch.
37:25
And you know, in the most simple way of putting it is like, you know, the character goes into a story, um they want something, but what they want is not actually what they need.
37:32
And the process of the film is them discovering that what they thought that they knew about themselves was actually wrong.
37:40
And that through the process of the movie they actually then get to learn about themselves and accept who they truly are.
37:46
And that's where the kernel of hope comes from.
37:47
And then with that self-acknowledgment and acceptance they can kind of make it up to the to the end.
37:52
We're talking about cinema here.
37:55
And what makes a documentary cinematic versus like a YouTube documentary?
38:03
Like break that down here.
38:06
>> It it it's it's information versus emotion. Hmm. Okay?
38:09
And that was a journey that I took when I first started making Jiro Dreams of Sushi.
38:13
I was like, "Okay, this is going to be all the information about sushi. It'll be so interesting.
38:16
It'll have the cool cinematography." >> You'll learn so much.
38:19
>> Yeah, you'll learn a lot.
38:19
But then I realized that that actually was not what I wanted to watch.
38:22
I wanted to watch a movie with a story.
38:25
And so what makes it it's it's that it it goes character and emotion is much more important than information.
38:33
In Chef's Table, you will not learn anything about how to cook anything, pretty much.
38:38
Um but you will learn about why they cook and that's because of the show and that's why the show has lasted is because it's about character journey. It's not about facts. Mhm.
38:47
People care about people.
38:50
>> People care about people and that's what hooks you and that's what makes you remember things.
38:53
I mean if it's just informational, then in fact, we remember information because of the emotional context of it. >> Right.
39:03
>> But I think that's what separates, you know, a a cinematic documentary from, you know, a something that is just just purely informative. Mhm.
39:11
And how much writing What kind of writing do you do in advance of an episode?
39:20
Yeah, writing on a doc happens throughout the entire process.
39:25
You know, first it's in the casting of the character, selection of the character, and then what you are able to read or surmise about the story.
39:31
What brought you to that character anyway? Do you know about it?
39:35
And that's kind of just literally written in the form of an outline that will guide the questions you ask during the interview because ultimately you know in the beginning we usually want them to kind of say the outline as we know it.
39:47
And then they'll add in, you know, additional things and stuff.
39:50
But that gives us like a biographical backbone that we can kind of build the movie around.
39:57
>> So say the outline is this is what the story >> Yeah, the outline is they were born here and then they did this and they did this and then they you know they loved grandma's cooking and then they you know got a job in a restaurant and it was really really hard and they almost quit but then they gave it one more try etc.
40:10
And then we kind of like we've chosen these chefs because we can kind of see that hero's journey arc, you know, that kind of conventional arc of a character who has some kind of talent discovers it, uses it the wrong way um dis- realizes learns a lesson there and then uses it the right way and then you know that may or may not work out exactly with the way they thought it was.
40:33
They then discover who they truly are and what they act what their actual purpose is.
40:39
Um And so like that's uh that's like the first stage of the writing.
40:43
Then when you're shooting it and you're actually conducting the interviews and you're filming the things you're discovering new things and you're writing it by deciding what it is that you're going to be filming.
40:51
A lot of the time we we know that we're going to be building this schedule.
40:54
We're going to be filming this interview here.
40:56
We're going to be filming them cooking here.
41:02
They're going to go on a trip to this farm here.
41:03
We'll go back to their hometown so they can kind of reflect on their life here.
41:07
But then as you're doing it you might discover there's another location.
41:11
And as prepared as you are you always want to leave room for that moment of kind of improvisation.
41:17
But then the real heavy lifting of the writing is in the edit.
41:20
And uh when you're editing it that's when you're actually choosing you're writing it by choosing which words are going to appear on screen.
41:28
And so it happens throughout the entire process but in doc the heaviest writing is at the end. Right.
41:34
Yeah, but thinking a lot about sort of doc editing of what if you it's like a thought experiment of we're only going to think of this in terms of visuals and then we're going to only think of this in terms of words and maybe if you only think of it in terms of one but not the other but not both at the same time you see different things and don't see other things.
41:55
Like Brian Eno the music producer he used to come into a studio and if people got stuck he'd take like blue painter's tape and put it right in the middle of the studio be like this side of the studio's off-limits. >> Oh.
42:11
Now you have to only make a song on this side of the studio. >> Oh, wow.
42:14
And so you're basically you're making all these constraints to unstuck yourself. >> That's interesting.
42:19
I mean that's one of the things that also works with doc is that you never have enough money and so the you have to work with what you have which is interesting cuz of like I I don't know how it going back to James Cameron like when he can literally create anything that he wants at any moment like there's too many choices.
42:36
Like that's like really intimidating I think.
42:38
We would have to shoulder that burden.
42:40
Yeah, that's that's really interesting.
42:42
How do you think about pacing?
42:45
I think make it not boring. Make it not boring.
42:47
>> to watch it with people.
42:47
It's so interesting when you even when you have your assembly and then you have your first cut and you think it's pretty good.
42:54
Sit in a room with a couple people that you trust who are not you know going to you know be cruel but like just sitting even without any feedback when you just sit in a room and watch the thing with another person you start to feel that it totally is different and then the pace it like you start to you can feel when it's slow because for me I can I feel responsibility that I'm taking this person's time and if they're bored it like kills me.
43:22
And also I have a pretty short attention span.
43:24
I don't want to be bored when I'm watching it.
43:25
But I think the things can be as long and paced as it is interesting and that becomes like a real kind of feeling thing.
43:36
Um but you have to watch it with someone else.
43:39
Once you watch it with someone else you will learn so much.
43:40
It is pretty astonishing.
43:43
It's kind of like reading something out loud.
43:44
Your your brain just knows how to edit and I noticed the same thing if I'm watching something that I made with somebody else.
43:52
Just the presence of another person there.
43:56
I don't know if it's that you're really sensitive to when they're bored when they're excited or if it's just your brain behaves differently when you actually feel that there's somebody there.
44:05
But your sensitivity dial to pacing and boredom Yeah.
44:08
Just goes No, immediately you're like you know actually let me fast forward through this part and get to the good part you know or or if you're even if you're reading if you're reading something that you've written to somebody I imagine it's sort of like okay and then you actually start just kind of jumping ahead in your own text to like get to it.
44:23
Um you might feel that impulse and that's a great way to sense the pacing of the thing.
44:31
>> Wait, but take me to the other side.
44:32
Like what is an example of something where you're like no we're going to like pump the brakes.
44:35
We're going to be slow here cuz I think a lot of advice about pacing is faster's better faster's better.
44:42
But so much to go back to the question about cinema is like kind of a comf- a comfort with there's oxygen, there's space, be a little slower.
44:54
>> Yeah, and knowing where to put that.
44:54
My process is that the assembly is way too long and I am so pained by how bored I am or how nervous I am of the person being bored that then my second cut I cut out way too much and the whole thing goes way too fast.
45:11
And then I'm no where I'm able to then okay here's an area where there can be some space and I can breathe a little bit.
45:18
But I I first I overcorrect and then there's something in the middle that just starts to to kind of feel right.
45:25
But you know so much of this is is intuition and based on you know your own taste because we want to make something that we want to watch and to be in tune to be able to watch something that you've made as an audience that's a skill that requires time.
45:42
Um because also as the creator of the thing you have so much context that the audience does not have that might make you think that something is more interesting than it is or less interesting than it is.
45:57
Um which is why again it's so important to watch things with other people and to also you know test it out and get feedback from people that you trust but that who are not mean. Yeah.
46:10
Yeah, I had uh I had David Zucker on the show who made Airplane and Naked Gun. >> Of course.
46:16
And uh yeah total total legend.
46:20
And you know those movies are like boom boom boom boom joke joke joke joke.
46:23
It's every 15 to 30 seconds. Yeah.
46:26
And the thing that they pioneered to go back to the story is they got started basically doing live skits and stuff.
46:34
So they got really used to audience laughter and then once they made their first movie they were like why wouldn't we just show a bunch of people and then take note of when people are laughing.
46:44
So the reason that those movies are so funny is they got all their friends together and if there was 30 seconds without a joke they were like all right we need we just >> They know what jokes they cut because they they test >> what you're saying. That's amazing.
46:57
I just wanted to pause a moment and just say you know you've talked to so many [ __ ] geniuses and amazing I don't know first of all I got like what am I doing here? This is amazing.
47:07
So thank you for having me again.
47:08
Um I wonder especially for a comedy especially for a comedic director how painful that first assembly that or that first rough cut that you're showing people if people are not laughing like and you're trying to be funny like that must be real that must be really hard.
47:27
Um but that movie works because I think the pacing is exactly right and that they they they is an onslaught of jokes and of course you know they're very funny and so they make it really make it work and a lot of them are funny but like um yeah, testing comedy I imagine is is a painful process but that it really shows you you know what is working and and what isn't.
47:51
There's no other way, you know.
47:52
Talk to me about feedback because without getting into the specific examples like we made this pilot and then I've got a lot of feedback from other people and it's like we're not going to do that.
48:00
We're not going to do that. You know what I mean?
48:03
And but you know what people are very good at diagnosing when something's wrong but they're not always good at diagnosing what the solution is.
48:08
Well, that's exactly right and I think that that's you know and and it's and I've done a studio movie with where we did test screenings and stuff and you know there is an impulse amongst people who are being tested on the thing is that all of a sudden they are also directors and writers and they you know will prescribe to you what the answer is.
48:27
The the and what you don't want to do is you don't want to overcorrect.
48:34
Um you don't want to get insecure about something that they that somebody may not understand but you feel is right and then you are afraid like now I'm going to cut this thing.
48:40
I think that the the the important way to look at it is look at it like a doctor patient relationship, okay?
48:48
So the a patient goes into the doctor's office and says oh my back hurts like I think I need like 25 Vicodins and a da da da da da da da da and like they want to they they they they will be able to tell you what the problem is but they're not the ones who should be prescribing the solution. Right.
49:09
And so what that's very what I think is important but they will prescribe the solution.
49:11
They will tell you what they want especially when it comes to a feedback thing.
49:16
Um cuz this is their moment to shine and they're going to be like oh here is how you can fix your thing.
49:19
Like I'm the one who's going to give the note that's going to make it into the movie.
49:23
Um what you have to do is just separate what is what is the symptom that they are reacting to and then through your own taste you can choose to address that symptom. Right.
49:35
what you're not going to do is you're not going to prescribe them a bunch of opiates or whatever because that's what they think that they want, you know?
49:44
That's the real That's the difficult thing here.
49:46
Um how do we figure out what is the symptom of the thing?
49:50
And for me it's just like I The questions I ask are like what did the movie mean to you?
49:54
Like or what what was the story?
49:56
Or was there any part of it that you did not understand?
49:58
I want to know where I'm losing the audience.
50:03
>> What does the movie mean?
50:03
What does the movie mean? Yeah.
50:04
And was there any part that you didn't understand?
50:07
>> there parts that you didn't understand?
50:08
And I may even like lay out like as I'm talking through it like did you understand, you know, like the Did you understand the conflict?
50:17
Or did you understand this?
50:17
Or they'll tell me things about that that they may have a solution for or not, but I realize it's like, okay, well, if they're giving me a solution they they think we should change something, it's because they didn't necessarily understand this moment or there's a new way of approaching that.
50:29
But the solution has to come through the taste of the filmmaker.
50:33
Once if you start making a bunch of changes trying to make other people happy and people pleasing, then you've lost the thread and then the movie will stop meaning you have to Like if you're creating a thing, it has to you have to understand it yourself and you have to know why you're doing it.
50:50
And so listening is important, but doing has to be based on still going with your gut and your own intuition.
50:56
Um and this is where we can kind of close the gap between what you and the filmmaker know, the extra context that you know, and what the audience um where the audience is not enjoying something.
51:10
Uh so that's kind of like And it isn't always about like making sure the audience enjoys it, but it's like you want to make sure that they understand it.
51:16
And there are things that you'll know that the audience doesn't know that like will you'll be like, oh, they didn't get that thing because you know it's so cuz you wrote it, but maybe it wasn't clear that the character has this issue that is making them do this later or whatever.
51:34
Well, the word that was coming to mind for me was coherence. >> Sure.
51:38
Of if you have your vision and then all of a sudden you're taking a little bit from here, here, here, here, here, here, here, all of a sudden it becomes like a fragmented piece of art. >> Right.
51:48
Have you heard this word uh Gesamtkunstwerk?
51:50
So it means total work of art.
51:52
So here's the definition: a comprehensive art form that synthesizes music, drama, spectacle, and dance into a single unified aesthetic experience.
52:02
Popularized by composer Richard Wagner to describe his operas, it also refers to architecture and design where all elements, structure, decoration, and furnishing are harmonized.
52:12
And you know, you see this a lot in architecture where if you have buildings where the architect was involved in everything, you can actually see different motifs show up all over the place.
52:25
For example, you go to the Guggenheim, what do you think of?
52:28
You think of a big round kind of rotunda type thing swirling going around and around.
52:33
That's Frank Lloyd Wright's obsession.
52:36
And where What do you see on the water fountains?
52:39
You see the exact same shape.
52:40
The little water fountain that you drink out of on the third floor when you're a little bit thirsty and need somewhere to park for 10 seconds is the same motif as the whole building at scale.
52:50
And I think that that's a lot of what leads to a work of art where like something about that really works is it's like it comes from the creator, but then the real subtle point that I think you're making here is the answer isn't I'm the creator. I know what's right.
53:05
I don't listen to anyone else.
53:06
It's this subtle thing of you have to listen other people and say, okay, this isn't working in this way, it isn't working in that way, but then how do you maintain that total work of art?
53:16
>> Right, where, you know, but you're still putting in the water fountain in a way that still fits within the art, you know?
53:22
Um there's that great scene in Amadeus when Mozart, you know, it's like one of his great, you know, pieces and then the the the the patron is like I guess it's like the duke or the count or whatever.
53:35
He's like, "N- too many notes." It's too many notes.
53:38
And uh you know, it's like he says, "It's [ __ ] Mozart."
53:41
Like I you know, but uh there's I This is actually a reason why some of the greatest filmmakers are known as very difficult.
53:48
Like if you like, you know, people like David Fincher or Cameron or um just like throughout history a lot of the great filmmakers are known as being very tough or sometimes being jerks, but it's because they are so persistent to their own form that they will not budge on things.
54:06
Um and if they're right and their intuition is spot on as these filmmakers often are, that's why the movies are able to be so good.
54:15
Especially when it comes to a big budget kind of movie, the pressure to make the adjustments and to change to please the audience because it you know, it's art, but it's a commercial product.
54:24
Like it has to make money.
54:25
Um the pressure is like is very high.
54:30
There's this great story and I I don't know I guess I'm obsessed with James Cameron right now.
54:34
This story where it's like the studio was like, "You You got too much of this flying.
54:39
They're all learning how to fly together. They're flying too much. You got to cut it. You got to cut it.
54:41
Each minute costs $10 million. You've got to cut this." And he's like, "No." And they're like, "Why?
54:48
It doesn't do anything to the story."
54:49
He's like, "Because I want to see it. I want to see it."
54:54
And he followed his intuition and then Avatar makes a billion It makes a billion dollars because his intuition is very is is what broad audiences want to see whether we can it can be explained or not.
55:04
So, sometimes you got to be tough on these things and if you really believe in the thing and if you're making something that's new and something that's different, you're going to get a lot of notes of people being like, well, it doesn't feel like what I've seen before, but maybe that's why it's good.
55:17
So there's a certain amount of courage that has to come into that.
55:19
You know, a lot of people including Jiro himself were like, "You're making the most boring movie of all time.
55:24
Like literally nothing is happening in this movie."
55:27
But I believe that I wanted to see that octopus get massaged for a long time. And uh we did it. I did it.
55:35
We did it, but there were other moments where I was like, you know what?
55:38
I And especially when watching with an audience I can feel like, okay, like I've done four different scenes about rice.
55:43
Like we got to pick one, you know? It's true. We have to pick one.
55:47
And uh being flexible and being able to change is an important part of just being like a functional human being, being able to process new information and then make adjustments.
55:58
Um but without losing yourself, like that's I think key to being a a a good person and and a functional artist.
56:04
And is your thinking about editing dialogue, what are the things that you would focus >> The most simple actionable thing is I say, what are the fewest words to get the idea across?
56:11
And that especially when you're if you've shot some really in-depth scenes or you have some really wicked dialogue that you love that you've written or whatever and you don't want to lose that stuff, that's where, you know, they say kill your babies.
56:26
You know, you have to be okay with losing some things in the service of clarity and and moving the story forward.
56:33
And each scene has to move has to move us forward.
56:36
We always want to be cutting to something and not away from it. >> What does that mean?
56:41
Cutting to something like it should never feel like we're like propelling over here and then we're like, now we're cutting to over here and then we'll have to rebuild a moment, you know, or or a rebuild a momentum.
56:51
I think that the feeling is and again, this is can be interpreted by anybody in their own way, but it's like when I'm how can I get out of the scene and then be cutting to something that advances us and pushes us forward.
57:06
Um and then when it comes to dialogue, it's like let's cut to the response.
57:11
Let's not cut back to a reaction.
57:13
Let's or cut to the reaction so that we're moving forward into the scene.
57:18
Um and then I I really do think it's about you what are the least amount of words that we can do to get through this.
57:25
And uh sometimes it's just also a great actor um can uh convey the intention of the scene without needing to say all of the words.
57:38
And then you'll find that you're able to cut things based on actually how it's shot. Yeah.
57:43
Or even just like if you're making good choices as a director and you can kind of feel like, oh wait, actually I know this scene was about this character trying to do something and then realizing that she needs to change her strategy.
57:54
As soon as that change happens, maybe you can then actually get out of the scene without having to explain it.
57:59
I love a scene without words. Yeah.
58:01
>> a scene without words.
58:01
There is uh Before Sunrise, there's this really cool scene when so they've just gotten off the train, they're trying to work out if they're going to have their first kiss, and they go to this record store.
58:10
And so they're in there, they sort of pick a record, then they go back in the listening booth.
58:14
And the whole scene, I want to say it's like 40 seconds, 50 seconds, and all it is is like body movements and facial interaction and then eye contact, no eye contact, >> No eye contact, no eye contact. >> That's amazing.
58:26
>> And so much is said, but nothing is spoken.
58:29
And it's just like yeah, flawless. That was great.
58:33
>> That's really really I mean, that's the hardest thing to do and it's the best.
58:36
Um I remember that was actually one of the best things in when at USC film school was that the uh the early like this first students' films were made but were not allowed to have dialogue.
58:44
You were forced to tell the story only through um the visuals or the characters' looks or interactions or whatever.
58:51
And uh to show without saying, I think that's like what that's the dream, right? Yeah.
58:59
Give me the pitch for reading books like Save the Cat and following these principles cuz like the obvious critique of them is, "I don't want to be formulaic in my storytelling.
59:07
I'm not going to do that.
59:09
I don't want to be like anybody else.
59:10
I'm going to total unique, you know, special snowflake, whatever."
59:13
But here you are, here many people are saying, "I've read these books.
59:17
These principles, they're true. They're consistent."
59:21
I think it's about knowing the conventions so then you can break them.
59:25
It's sort of like you want to know the rules before you do something crazy and and different.
59:30
And then you That way you know you know and that way you're actually by defying convention sometimes you can lead an audience's expectation one way and then kind of flip it back on them in a new way.
59:42
But I think that just like knowing the conventions works.
59:44
A lot of screenwriters don't like save the cat because they say it's like quite overly simplistic.
59:49
But my favorite thing about save the cat and for me just because I like having at least something a skeleton to follow I love how he breaks down some of the big movies into chunks so that you kind of understand why the sequence of events is kind of happening the way that it is and how what you set up the theme stated in the very beginning of the movie then begin to kind of pay off later on.
1:00:15
And so yeah, I think you got to learn the rules of the game before you break them. Right.
1:00:21
And then as you think about scenes do you is that how you process?
1:00:26
Like if if there's an episode do you think of it like I don't know it's going to be seven, eight scenes?
1:00:31
Like what is the role of a scene?
1:00:33
How do you create a good scene?
1:00:34
In Chef's Table because the show has existed for so long and we have many different people that have worked on episodes and stuff we still need to make sure that the show is still the show.
1:00:45
And so we call them buckets.
1:00:45
There is an cold open, then there is a opening credits and then they're sort of like a critic's analysis of like here is the chef, here's why we're watching the episode, here's what they do, here's how they do it.
1:01:00
Um so there are certain types of scenes.
1:01:02
There's then going to a farm or whatever and then there's going to their hometown like we talked about like there are various kind of types of scenes that we know work.
1:01:09
And then, you know, there's nuance in how we connect them.
1:01:15
And a scene is just it's a it's a moment.
1:01:17
Um there is moments that are happening in the present moment and that's what we're filming and then there are scenes that are described through their biographical interview which are moments in their in their lives.
1:01:29
And then we just kind of intersperse them and kind of weave them together um and then the visuals then come after whether it's archival photographs of them or whatever it is.
1:01:38
But you know, a scene is like a moment in time and there is something attempted that causes some kind of change or change in perspective.
1:01:50
Something in the scene is it a scene is where you lay out a moment and then something changes.
1:01:55
Something has to change in the scene.
1:01:57
There has to be something otherwise where are we going, you know?
1:02:01
That's where the turns and twists of a movie take place is like scene to scene. That's interesting.
1:02:07
Almost thinking of like if you were watching a movie, you're trying to you know, we're sitting side by side and you're trying to basically teach me how a good movie works, how a good story works and we're sitting here watching a movie.
1:02:20
Like what questions would you ask me at the end of the scene to basically say did you understand this?
1:02:24
So like what I'm hearing from you is what changed there?
1:02:28
Maybe what changed for the character?
1:02:29
>> What is a character coming into the scene with and then what are they leaving with?
1:02:32
It cannot be the same thing.
1:02:35
A character has to come into a scene with an expectation or a goal.
1:02:37
Ideally in every scene your character is trying to do something or to get something and then there is some kind of obstacle.
1:02:46
They're not getting what they want and then they have to make some kind of adjustment or they can just be hitting that wall and then we're like wow, what the audience is like well, what are they going to do?
1:02:58
And then then the next scene they're taking in that blockage and then they might be discovering some path, some new way of doing the thing to get through that.
1:03:07
But you have to it's all about what is the character bringing in, what is the character leaving with.
1:03:11
And that's actually one of the things that a lot of great actors are going to be asked.
1:03:15
These these are the questions that act actors are going to be asking directors especially when a movie is shot out of order.
1:03:19
But it's like what am I coming in with, what am I leaving with? It has to be different.
1:03:28
If you're to zoom out like at the scope of a movie itself and we're debriefing and you want me to help you want to help me understand Spirited Away, whatever it is.
1:03:37
Like what are some of the questions that a movie watcher who wants to write better movies should be thinking to themself?
1:03:45
What is the character coming in with and what What is the character coming in with, what are they leaving with?
1:03:50
The character is going to come in I mean this is like in you don't always get what you want but if you try sometimes you get what you need.
1:03:57
Like sure they that that's why that lyric has stuck with us.
1:04:00
It's like the character has a view of the world, exists in the setup of the of this world.
1:04:07
This they think that they know what they want and what they're striving for or you know, what they think they are supposed to be.
1:04:15
Um and they think that they know who they are and then something happens.
1:04:20
Something happens that turns that world upside down. Mhm.
1:04:22
Um and then at that point the character is on a journey to try to in this upside down world still struggling grasping to get back to that version of themselves that they thought that they knew and through the process of the film they will discover that the thing that they wanted actually was an illusion and that they need something that is completely different. I mean all the time.
1:04:46
>> Yeah, so that's like and that works for everything.
1:04:48
He says like such broad things but that's what makes it a story instead of just a description. Right. Yeah.
1:04:56
And then it applies just not only for and and in docs actually there's one more level because the audience thinks that they know what the thing is about and then it becomes about something else.
1:05:08
So the audience is actually a character that's going on a journey because they are learning things.
1:05:12
Um cuz information docs that are based on information like Planet Earth or various stuff like that.
1:05:16
Like they still have a story.
1:05:18
Like there is still is a nuance.
1:05:19
We want to surprise the audience.
1:05:21
The audience is coming in expecting to see this kind of thing and then they'll learn something different.
1:05:26
Great example is Exit Through the Gift Shop.
1:05:28
You know, where you think the movie is about Banksy but then it actually becomes about Mr. Brainwash.
1:05:34
You have to take the audience thinks that they're going to get one thing and then you're going to give them something else.
1:05:37
That is what they actually needed.
1:05:40
And what's funny about that is what they think they're going to get has to be immediately appealing cuz then they're signing up to say I want that. >> Right.
1:05:45
But then the other thing is sort of like wow.
1:05:47
That that's why this is worth watching because something is going to be revealed Mhm.
1:05:52
that gives it a feeling of satisfaction. >> Right.
1:05:59
So earlier you mentioned your grandpa's line and I'll sort of let you say.
1:06:01
But when I read that as I was prepping I was like wow, that is a very positive liberating thing.
1:06:07
But when you mentioned it earlier it seemed like it was sort of a constricting idea and I saw like a little jolt of fear or something of discomfort in that quote and I was like what's going on there? So let's go back to it. >> Sure.
1:06:19
Well, this is my journey of change in the way that I look at things, you know, kind of in the story of my life, right? So I'm I'm 42 now.
1:06:27
My grandpa um you know, kind of famously said to my dad and then that was repeated to me you know, that you can do anything in the world that you want. Just be the best at it. Yeah.
1:06:37
And it sounds like, you know, it's it sounds kind of like, you know, you means you can anything that you're passionate about, you know, it's like go for it.
1:06:47
But it's the idea of being the best at it is actually kind of a trap.
1:06:50
Now because what does that mean to be the best at anything?
1:06:58
Like the best in itself is like kind of a problem.
1:07:02
So that would mean that, you know, no matter what you do now you're looking at what everyone else is doing and like am I better or am I the best at that thing?
1:07:11
And ultimately it maybe it should be you can do anything in the world that you want just do your best at it or just like, you know, be yourself and achieve trying to go after that thing which makes a little bit more, you know, flexible.
1:07:24
But I think that there can be a real fear where your identity becomes predicated on am I the best or not at that thing.
1:07:36
And I think that it's a healthier approach is to just do the thing rather than worrying about if you're the best at it.
1:07:45
Because then no matter how far you go and how good you do it'll never be enough.
1:07:53
Because nobody is the best at anything cuz that's it's totally subjective, right?
1:07:57
And if you are you won't be the best in 20 years.
1:07:58
you're the best at something then I can guarantee you that you're not unless you're Roger Federer. He's just that cool. Good to meet you, man. Thank you so much, man. I appreciate it. Thank you.