stress is the difference between the things on your to-do list and your capacity to handle that to-do list anxiety is fretfully projecting and fearing that bad things are going to happen both things are probably at the worst Point they've ever been since we
started keeping those records former ABC news anchor author of 10% happier Mr Dan Harris people who live the longest have strong relationship dose yourself with some discomfort go to that party accept the invitation the number one Health and Wellness podcast J shett J shett the one the only J
shett at this point in time it feels like we've talked about this topic for a long time but it still feels like we have a slightly unhealthy relationship with it and somewhat a subconscious relationship with it and I'm talking about stress and it seems that year upon year people's stress
increases people's VAR y of causes of stress increase even after the pandemic we saw a different type of stress that we experienced I wanted to get your thesis on how you feel about the state of stress at the moment it's not good um I I recently learned this is embarrassing
that I recently learned this the difference the specific difference between Stress and Anxiety hopefully I don't mangle this but it's something like stress is the difference between the things on your to-do list and your capacity to handle that to-do list the difference between your the demands on
you and your ability to meet those demands and anxiety is a little bit more um fretfully projecting forward into the future and fearing that bad things are going to happen and so I think actually both things are probably at the worst Point they've ever been uh since we
started keeping those records so from what I can tell uh anxiety depression suicide addiction and loneliness are according to the numbers I've seen at unprecedented levels now I don't we haven't been keeping these statistics for that long so I suspect when we were like on the edge of World War II things
were worse but in the modern era things have not been worse from what we can tell and um I think a huge contributor to that is uh the pandemic that we just live through I sometimes describe it as a global unregulated experiment into what would happen when you deny people
uh social connection and put people in a state of deep uncertainty about the future and and add into that political polarization the noxious impacts of uh social media which we were just talking about war climate change and you have a very tough situation for individual
Minds which one's been the one that you feel you've heard about the most from the people that follow your podcast that have read your books like what's the stress that you think is weighing them down the most I'm projecting a little bit here and guessing but I I sometimes
think there's a difference between what people perceive to be the source of their stress or anxiety and what actually is driving it so we might fasten on to things that are real for sure I mean like work stress economic so there can be stress about the state of your job and then economic stress about
the larger state of the economy there's increasing stress around uh inequality and bigotry uh increasing awareness of it so the question is are those the proximate causes for your stress or could it be could there be Subterranean contributors that you might not be aware of so I
think today's media environment particularly social media and I'm not antisocial media we just talked about the fact that I recently went on it but I think there are aspects of social media we need to be aware of and and um too much comparing yourself to other people is as talked about the source
it's a really good source of unhappiness and stress I think also if you're spending too much time staring at a screen two things can happen one you can get a distorted view of the state of the world because the algorithms feed off of conflict and anger and outrage um they
feed our anxiety um and then the other thing is the more you're staring at the screen the less time you're spending connecting to actual human beings so I think this is the deepest contributor we are and this is to State the obvious social animals you hear this in every
Ted Talk I think I said it in my own Ted talk so I'm like deeply unoriginal here we are social animals were designed to interact with other human beings and yet everything about Modern Life militates against this basic obvious fact everything drives us into our own information silos into curating our own
resumés and working on our own little homes and all that can be beautiful but when you overlook what we need that is going to create Stress and Anxiety and you might think it is observable things out in the world and it probably is those things too but I just wonder for
many people whether it's this deeper contributor that they're not looking at yeah I'm so glad You' just made some two really good distinctions there I love the way you were sharing the research around the difference between anxiety and stress and go going back to that for
a second that example you gave of having your to-do list and feeling like you don't have the capacity it sounds like what you're sharing is that there's a capacity Challenge and then also a control Challenge and when you're naming all those things external to us there's
a feeling of I can't control any of those things all of those things are uncertain and therefore I'm dealing with constant states of change and that in effect creates a sense of stress and to some degree if I'm forward projecting then anxiety as well when I think about all of that and I love what you just
said about actually getting to the root of it because I think you're spot on that we often discover a new symptom and there will always be a new thing we'll discover every day that causes or triggers stress because there'll be a new change a new uncertainty and a new thing we can't
control but at the core of it you've highlighted this need for connection and this need for belonging and this need for human touch both physical and mental and emotional that we seem to be feeling further and further away from I was talking about this with my best friend today who I speak to probably
like three or four times a week and it's the person I probably speak to the most in the entire world and he was my best man at my wedding he introduced me to spirituality so we have a long history of 18 years of a friendship so he knows me very well and we still talk three to
four times a week he lives in London I live in LA and we still find a time to to connect and that's mainly because he always makes time and he's very kind and I of think about it in that I don't know how I would navigate life without that friendship because of having someone who
understands me deeply someone who allows me to be seen someone who allows me to be flawed and imperfect yet allows me to process all of that is so profoundly needed but it required certain deposits that had to happen 18 years ago in order to get there do you find human
connection is easier with people you've known for a long time or have you found it to be building new relationships and new friendships what what have been the pros and cons or the the ways you've navigated both of those one of the things that I really try to do in my work is move away
from abstractions or cliches or big ideas and get really practical about how you can actually act on these things because it's easy to scroll on Instagram or read a book or hear a TED talk and you hear these inspirational Notions like we're built for connection we need
belonging and you need to invest in relationships and uh and then what do you do about coulde more and so I I think about that a lot and I think you just gave us an example you made a deep friendship 18 years ago but it's not enough to just have a connection with somebody you need to invest in it over
and over and over again that's true for any level of deep relationship it's true I would imagine with your wife it's I mean you you've written a whole book about this so I'm not talking to you like you don't know what you're talking about but I I just think you're giving a
great concrete example of one little thing you can do which is figure out who you like and then make an investment in that person and hopefully a few other people consistently over time because the rewards are huge and this isn't just like a nice to have I know you're
familiar with this research but the the study that comes up for me all the time is this study that was done that's still on going at Harvard University it's overseen now by Robert waldinger and the idea is uh that they've been following several generations of people who live
in the Boston area uh to see what contributes to a long life longevity health happiness and that what comes screaming out of 80 90 years of data is that the people who live the longest have strong relationships and what's the mechanism for that stress is what kills us you started this whole
conversation with idea of stress stress is what kills us most of the time and the best way to reduce stress is to have positive relationships waldinger has this great expression never worry alone and that's what you're doing three times a week with your buddy and there are
obviously things you can talk to your wife about of course but the whole and again again you know all of this but you can't you can't your wife can't be the Alpha and Omega they your wife can't be everything to you uh and again there's data to support this contention too that
the strongest marriages are romantic relationships uh in those relationships the the participants have other relationships that support it you know that that you're getting certain needs filled through your best friend um and yeah so I just go back to what you said that that seems to be a direction that
people can move in when they're trying to think about how to operationalize this stuff in their own life yeah no and I'm glad that you brought it to this and and I genuinely couldn't agree with you more and that's that's why I've always wanted to talk to you is is this idea of
well how do we actually do that because these big ideas and big Concepts often as you said give you that short-term inspiration but then it doesn't translate into any discipline or habit or creation of a routin or Rhythm that's allows us to repeat it and make it real and so let's let's kind of Zone
in on that for some of the points you made one of the things you talked about of course is social media and the truth is that all of us are in some way shape or form addicted to this it's designed to make us addicted it's not that we we're addicted because we have some flaw
or some weakness or because we're not you know because we're alone I think a lot of us share this I've found myself Doom scrolling I found myself wasting hours and hours on social media feeling like I didn't achieve anything or or gain anything from it so no one's immune
to this I don't think there's a select few people who beaten it I think it's it's consumed all of us what have been the Practical steps that you maybe have put in place for yourself people that you know in your life that you think have actually helped people develop a
healthy relationship because I think it's also not just like saying well just don't be on your phone which is often again one of these big ideas that's portrayed which is like well just turn it off or you know don't be on it and we know that that's not sustainable either
like we're both carrying our phones today yes first of all you said this thing about how you have struggled with social media I just want to add that I have too I mean I just started as we've discussed and I can't tell you how many times I've gotten sucked into either scrolling and looking at things that I
mean you know I'm I'm I could be like talking to my child during that time or and this is even more embarrassing you know compulsively checking back to see how a specific video is performing and and so yeah I'm I I don't come to this conversation with any superiority I also think U and I will
get to some things that have been useful for me but I also want to say that I'm not against social media I think there are beautiful aspects to it I think there also very difficult aspects and we can talk about that if you want but it is popular not only for the negative
aspects for it and I think it's you know you can get some degree of pleasure through social media for sure and I think it's true just for any dopamine hit in our life you can get addicted to anything that is the source of fleeting pleasure from food to cocaine to uh uh
alcohol to gambling to shopping and there's healthy use healthy uh involvement in all of these activities and then unhealthy and it really just depends on the circumstances of your own brain your own life uh and it's a thing everybody has to work on for themselves as it as it pertains to like practical
things that have worked for me with technology addiction one is just being pretty disciplined about putting it away at a you know usually at the end of the day I try to put it away and have a proper evening with my family don't always succeed at that but I notice when
I do it I feel better and that leads to the second piece of advice which is as you know I'm a big advocate of meditation as are you and I think the self-awareness that can be generated through contemplative exercises like meditation can help wake you up to the fact that you will feel better if you
don't get sucked into your phone for you know prolonged periods of time and uh that can the brain is always looking for pleasure and if you can show the brain that there's what my friend Jud Brewer calls a bigger better offer which that it which is that it will feel better to
connect to your family most of the time because sometimes our families are annoying but it will feel better to connect to other people to uh read a book to take a walk in nature than it will to uh uh you know um attach your arm to the IV drip of fomo that uh that social media can be um and so I I I
think meditation is a great way to do that um the final thing is see if you can ask yourself this question and I get this from a woman named Katherine price who wrote a book that I recommend called how to break up with your phone and she encourages people to ask themselves to
try to get in the habit of asking themselves a very simple question when they're when they find their zombie arm reaching for the phone what do you need right now like what what need are you trying to fulfill when you pick up that phone for me it's often because I'm
bored or I'm in an uncomfortable situation or I'm tired and I don't have the wherewithal to do something or I'm lonely or I'm hungry and actually if you run that program you run that algorithm internally for yourself you know you're you're only going to remember this 10%
of the time but if you can remember to do it some percentage of the time and ask yourself what what is it that I'm actually going for here you might realize actually the phone is not what I need right now and for me I found that really helpful doesn't work all the time but it helps I sometimes joke that if
anybody said to me the types of that I say to myself I would be punching that person in the face so what can we do about it what I've learned is that you can get into the habit of talking to yourself the way you would talk to a friend and there are some hacks that
make this easier one of them is to actually what need are you trying to fulfill when you pick up that phone for me it's often because I'm bored or I'm in an uncomfortable situation or I'm tired and I don't have the wherewithal to do something or I'm lonely or I'm hungry ask yourself what
what is it that I'm actually going for here you might realize actually the phone is not what I need right now the way that that worked for me was having to remind myself after I made the right decision so what I mean by that is if I'm going to reach for my phone right
now and I have the cour enough to not reach for it but I end up spending time with my family as the bigger better offer now after I've spent time with my family and I've enjoyed it this time they're not annoying then after I do that I need to deeply code that into my memory like I
need to make a deal out of it like I need to tell my friend about it I need to journal about it I need to record it I need to take a picture whatever it is because what I found is that the Mind needs to be reminded again when I reach for the phone that the bigger better
offer will win but that memory doesn't get stored deep enough for us to be able to ReDiscover it when we most need it yes and so that's definitely helped and I loved what you said a couple of seconds ago about being able to switch it off I I I fail at this all the time but I've at least set the rules and I
think that's what we have to do with this because it's it is hard but a few years ago I set no technology times in no technology zones in my home so I almost envisioned a no phone sign in the bedroom and at the dining table and at one point I used to Envision like lasers
around the room and it's like if I walked past it with my phone then you know i' whatever Flor is yeah like Mission Impossible like just to give that feeling and and yes of course have I walked through a laser with my phone of course I have but but I like the idea of knowing that look there are certain
rooms in my home where technology is not the space so actually if I want to use my phone I have to leave that room to use it and and like you're saying about leaving your phone in a in another room or whatever it may be I I think is really powerful one thing you brought up
which I actually think is that the Crux of so much of this and you mentioned the word you've been embarrassed sometimes in your social media usage and I find that to actually be one of the deepest roots of the challenges we have with change and habit or even with meditation like I think as you know
you you've been teaching meditation for years as of I and when I first started meditating and and even now uh when I when my attention is not as present as it can be or I'm not as focused or I'm distracted which still happens today after all these years of meditating it's
so easy to feel embarrassed or ashamed or guilty and we can often start to develop an inner critic that can say some of the most hurtful things like I'll often say to myself like come on man you've been meditating for 18 years now how are you still distracted or you know you've been you know by now you
should have been an expert because you're surrounded by so many experts or what's wrong with you like oh what how can you teach meditation if you can't meditate deeply like you know whatever it may be and it's so easy to get into that space and one thing that I came
across recently for myself was recognizing that you can't hate yourself into change like you can't guilt yourself into growth you can't make yourself feel so guilty that you'll suddenly achieve your goal there almost needs to be Grace there needs to be kindness there needs to be a safe space
for you to have imperfections so I wanted to ask you like what have you done with that emotion of feeling embarrassed because I actually think meditation is powerful for helping us overcome embarrassment but I'd love to approach that with you well I've had the same thoughts of you know I I don't know
if you've experienced this but you know once you step out into the world as like something approaching a um self-help person as soon as you're an you tell yourself a story about how like you're a total fraud like the first day you screw up you know you you you're
like all right well I got to close this whole business um I can relate to that yeah I I'm I'm sure I mean I I I and I think it goes to something really important which is personal growth Spiritual Development whatever you want to call it is hard and messy and
Perfection is not an offer and I think just knowing that and even hearing Jay shett talk about making mistakes and getting his uh shins cut off by a laser as he walks into the bedroom with his phone is useful because people need to know it's not a straight unbroken uh upward trajectory that's
that's not what this is that's not what this is about there's a great um tweet or I guess we call them X's now or whatever whatever a great X there was a great X the other day from a a a Zen roshi rhi Joan Halifax she's this incredible human being and she posted a picture that was basically a bunch of
squiggly lines just going nowhere and then she the caption was the path that's the thing we are this is messy we are messy animals and and that's okay and and I what I think is important to know is that growth is possible but it is impossible without making a bunch of
mistakes and if you can get that into your head you're you're better off so how do you get that into your head there's a bunch of uh research that I've become increasingly interested in about the possibility of reprogramming your inner dialogue um we most of us have really
nasty inner uh weather you know I sometimes joke that if anybody said to me the types of that I say to myself I would be punching that person in the face and yet I talk to myself in a quite a scathing venomous way and I I know this is not unusual so what can we do about it well you can
get into the Habit you can develop and again this is a data an evidence-backed assertion I'm not make just making this up nor is it an original observation but what I've learned is that you can get into the habit of talking to yourself the way you would talk to a friend and
there are some little hacks that make this easier one of them is to actually refer to yourself by your name so Jay I know uh you just got distracted and met meditation but dude as you know getting distracted is a part of meditation if if it was possible to clear your mind um
then um we'd have lots of people walking around with no thoughts but that that isn't possible what is possible is to focus your mind for a few Nan seconds at a time and then start again and again and again and we are very good at taking advice from or at giving advice to other
people but not taking our own advice and so this technique which is called distant selft talk where you use your own name to create some distance can allow you Jay or me Dan to give ourselves the advice that we're so willing to give other people and then actually to hear it and does that make
sense something You' ever absolutely no that resonates that resonates so deeply and I actually feel that makes complete sense because even the negative of that is true and so I was reading just a couple of weeks ago maybe around how the two ways we talk to oursel negatively
are either I am so we say things like I am lazy or I'm so I'm not good enough or I'm the worst or you know I'm the least intelligent out of all my friends or whatever is right I am statements and the other one they were saying which was even worse was we have a voice in our
head that sounds like an authority figure that says you're the worst or and it you aren't good enough or you're behind or whatever it may be and that almost sounds like there's an external Authority whether it could have been a teacher a parent a family member who may have said that to us and now it's
internalized as a negative Authority in our minds and so what you're actually saying is the positive Authority also works that if someone says your name Jay or Dan and then coaches you and guides you through that would you say that that's a skill that you have harnessed
and nourished through meditation or do you see that as separate to meditation I think it's absolutely complimentary you know as you know in meditation you are one of the benefits is that you're more self-aware you're you're more aware of all these wild thoughts cening through
your head and so it's easier to wake up now I mean I get lost in you know homicidal fantasies and you know unspeakable fantasy other kinds of fantasies that's just the mind but I'm more likely now to have some self-awareness I mean another word for that is mindfulness to be able to see
what's happening between my ears behind my eyes without necessarily being caught up in it and so the sooner I can wake up to the fact that I'm in the middle of a a Jag of self-judgment then I can bring in these other tools oh yeah you know what I need to do right now is have a a talk between
the sane part of myself and the insane part of myself and as you said before the the the inner critic comes to the ball masquerading is wisdom but it's not wisdom it's it's the it is your ancient fears mhm and it is the dysfunction of the larger culture so you might be telling yourself you need
to look better well that's not your voice that is as to invoke another amazing person um Sonia Renee what am I uh Sonia Renee Taylor I believe is her name I'm I'm embarrassing I'm forgetting her last name but she's a a great writer and she said something to the effect of
when I see self-criticism I realize it's not my voice it's the voice of the system and so you're you're telling yourself you don't look good well who's by whose standards it's the culture's standards and I have two modes that I'm least proud of one is um greedy and the other is um Angry Angry and as over time
I've learned to actually have some affection for these modes because it's just the organism trying to protect itself it's just my ancient fear-based patterns doing their best usually you know like their it's a five-year-old's version of doing their best to protect
this body but I don't need to listen to them in fact the radical disarmament is to actually make friends with them to kind of high-f five those demons instead of trying to slay them and for me that's been really useful and and just to get it back to your question combining these
I would say modern psychological tools with ancient contemplative tools has really been helpful absolutely yeah I love you just reminded me of making that point about the system that you quoted there reminds me of years years years and years ago I was when I was a student
in London and I remember walking through you know like a department store and there was a big advert that said get the natural look and then it was like all these things that products that can help you get the natural look and just that idea of purchasing a natural look is is
fascinating because as if you weren't born with one yeah exactly and and but it is that voice right saying okay well even to get a natural look and again you know I think there are pros and cons I mean you I'm a big fan of so many products so many services so many things
and so it's not to say it's all bad but there is a need in mindfulness to I think what you're saying is to differentiate and have the ability of discernment between is this voice me or is this something outside of me whether it's a system or a person or whatever it may be and I think that's the quality
that we need because it isn't necessarily saying I'm just going to shut everything off and nothing matters it's this idea of can I tell MH can I tell that when I'm listening to the voice in my head as to whether it's truly mine or whether it's being picked up or nurtured by some other external
Force another fascinating question is what is me close your eyes and look inside can you find some core nugget of j i me spend some time with that question that'll pop you out of uh uh ruminating about lots of other unhealthy things where is that question taken you
I think you I think I think you come more out of the Hindu tradition and I come a little bit more out of the Buddhist tradition um even though I don't look like it but um you know that's that's where I've spent the last 15 years of my life really doing a lot
of study um and one of the things they say in Tibetan Buddhism is that the not finding is the finding because there's nothing to find there I yes I mean on on the convent on the level of consensual convention reality I'm Dan and that camera's taking a picture of me and yes that is true but
on the deepest possible level if I look for some core nugget of Dan there's nothing to find and that not finding is the answer and if can you stay with that ambiguity there is something healing about that so how how do you take that out of the esoteric clouds into your actual life one little
linguistic trick you kind you kind of teed me up for this before cuz you you use the phrase I am like I am so and so what if you just and this is I want to give credit to the person who came up with this it's Joseph Goldstein who's a great meditation teacher but he often
advises his students of to say instead of I am fill in the blank there is fill in- the blank there is hunger right now there is anger in my mind right now there is sadness in my mind right now there's no you to find the adding of the youu on top of it is just adding um
insult to injury right you don't that's extra but the it's true that hunger or anger or sadness can be here right now but if you can take the I am out of it into the there is well then it's workable right you can do something with it you can let it pass you can observe it you can try to work with it um but if
you add in a whole story about how i j or IAM incurably fill in the blank well that that's much that's a much bigger problem nothing can happen until you identify the problem if I and dismissing something out of hand it's usually something I should listen to and if I'm
getting defensive it's because there's something I know I should hear that I'm unwilling to hear at that moment meditation is a great way to like pound this stuff into your neurons it's interesting though isn't it because it feels like we're all so obsessed with identity in our stories and almost what
you're proposing is this idea of recognizing that there's somewhat of a distance between us and our identity and story yet everything we've been discussing today whether it's social media whether it's the system whether it's the story your parents laid out for you all all of
that there's there's stories to be lived crafted told and almost we're all living our own stories in our own mind and so yeah how are you able to operate as Dan Harris the teacher the guide the you know podcaster Etc and then also have the the balance of this recognition that
actually there is and there I am well can I turn it around on like my last retreat was six to n months ago I've got one coming up so I'm like further and further away from sanity uh but you are much fresher like you've just come out of a retreat how do you balance that there's an understanding of the needs
and interests of the different vehicles in which I live so the body being one vehicle and the body has certain needs in order to operate and in order to function and then the mind has certain needs and awareness that it will easily be a support or as the gaita says the best
friend or the worst enemy so recognizing again as you said earlier the the befriending of the Mind requires an awareness and then at a deeper level looking at our emotions looking at our spiritual or Consciousness Connection and so to me it's the outlining and awareness of the
needs for that specific vehicle but not falling into the Trap of believing the vehicle is me and the balance comes from recognizing using there is is beautiful actually but recognizing that there are needs for each aspect that need to be taken care of but that one should not
accept each of them to be oneself and I think for me that comes in the form of having to remind myself of that which is beyond the physical self because it's easier to get connected and identify with the physical self than it is with the non-physical self because the non-physical self is
intangible it's unseen we're unaware of it we don't live in a society that reminds us of it I was thinking about this while I was actually at the monastery so the monastery doesn't have mirrors and that was something I've talked about before where you lose your
sense of your physical self like while I lived there I didn't really I forgot deeply what I look like and so if I was out on the streets when I was traveling I would always try and look at my reflection in a you know in a shop window whatever it may be and when I was
back this time as well I was having that realization that the number one thing I do in the morning when I wake up back at my home is I look in the mirror and so I'm already from the moment I wake up living in my physical self I'm now living believing that I am this body this is all there is and so that
automatically sets me up on the opposite end of what I'm trying to practice spiritually and so I found that the balance is kept by making that reminder that first thought of the day of recognizing whether it's in your language the you know that which is not or or that which is unseen and and in
the the Hindu tradition the accepting of us being pure Eternal full of knowledge and full of bliss as Consciousness identifying with that before I identify with anything else and that to me is what helps the balance is not falling into the easy identification
I don't know if any of that made any sense but well I it does I think well you're aware through your own practice that there's more than just the J you see in the mirror and yet you live in a busy world and you're actually like me you're you're kind of building a business around the
small version of yourself like the the physical corporeal version of yourself that presents here now smaller than the sort of vast infinite mysterious we don't know what that is somehow it lives in your mind and the way that you balance it I heard is just engage in the messy business of
trying to remember to the best of your ability yeah I can't I can't I don't need to remind myself that I'm Jay this physical version because I'm reminded of that every day but I have to remind myself of that which is beyond this because otherwise it's so easy to lose
touch with it because we are living with the bodily needs as the Prime Focus and I think that's why Retreats and experiences are so supportive where the bodily needs somewhat become a background priority and the needs of the Deeper Self Rise And the connection with that self is
more prominent and I find that starting my year off that way helps I was actually just I was talking to someone who was mentioning they came to one of your Retreats at Omega MH and they were saying what a beautiful experience that was they said it was there only Retreat
they've ever been on but they plan on coming on more and it was for that same reason of to be reminded and I think that's why we do anything right I think we most of what we do is to remind oursel of something that we care about and something that's meaningful to us like whether it's spending time with our
family or why we celebrate the holidays like so much of I think the most beautiful things in our world are reminding us of what truly matters and I think spiritually and meditation to me meditation is my daily practice of remind myself of what truly matters I mean I I think the biggest problem in my
experience the biggest problem in whatever again like I don't know what to call this personal growth Spiritual Development whatever it is the biggest challenge is forgetting because you hear a great podcast you see a great Instagram post you read a great book you
go to a great retreat but then everything about Modern Life pulls you back into the I'm going to get satisfaction from the next thing oh no no the next thing I'm going to keep scrolling I'm going to uh get that next sip of a latte I'm going to get the next promotion and again I'm not saying these
are bad things but they won't do it for you right there's a reason why you keep wanting more um because the way the Human animals designed is it natural selection didn't want us to be satisfied because then we stop you know having babies um and that wouldn't be good for
for the species so you you need to wake you need this is a urgent Mission you need to find as many ways as possible to wake back up and you just describe you know Med meditation is a great way to like pound this stuff into your neurons it's probably too aggressive of an
analogy but it gets it into your molecules in a way and another thing you also described earlier is having good friends you know if you can surround yourself with people who are also taking this thing seriously that is a great way to wake yourself back up and it also by
the way is a great way to get you out of your attachment to the sort of I don't know if this is the appropriate term to use the sort of smallest most superficial version of yourself the brand of Dan the brand of Jay well if you're FOC if you're talking to your best friend he's got a problem and
you're helping him with it another word for that would be generosity right if you're being generous in some way that's going to get you out of your head that is a form of Letting Go I like that yeah that that that really that that struck a cord there of like how again going back
to that being when when we're being a I guess in that case you said General there's an element of us not living in the system is is would you say that feels right why why is that why why do you think that breaks the system there's a little line that I have which is impolite but um the view is so much
better when you pull your head out of your ass and you know if you're being generous your head's out of your ass even if you have ulterior motives which I think we unfairly demonize like it's okay to give because you know you have some there's something in it for you by
the way there is something in it for you the brain is wired to to experience intense reward uh in the act of generosity that's cool but you're still more of your band with focused on the benefits of somebody else than there would be if you were like mindlessly scrolling or binging or eating or
whatever it is and it is just fundamentally getting your head out of your ass in whatever form you choose and it doesn't have to be given money it can be holding the door open for somebody like I I sometimes ask people to do this little mental very easy mental game of like pay
attention the next time you hold the door open for somebody what does that feel like feels good if you're paying attention that feeling is infinitely scalable in a way that the pleasure of Instagram or ice cream is not and I just you can ride that Insight not that I do
it perfectly uh if at all but you can if you're so inclined ride that Insight all the way to significantly greater levels of happiness yeah wow I love that I love that that's so interesting that after all these years you can still open a door for someone and and it still feels
great and it and you know whether whether the other person responds or not but the endless scrolling on social media is kind of yeah loses its taste very very quickly yeah it doesn't mean you should never do it I just it's just the endless part that you should lose yeah yeah absolutely I mean I I guess
that's one of the things I loved about in this book when I first came across it your book 10% happier uh which is you know a huge bestseller huge success led to the podcast also one of the things I loved was this whole idea about without losing your Edge and I really
appreciated that because I think it's what we've both been talking about here like I enjoy operating and building and creating like I do and I've always been I I feel like I'm at a point in my life where I've given myself permission to be all aspects of myself and up until this
stage in my life I was just collecting different parts of myself and so I felt like I collected I mean 0er to 10 probably didn't do anything but 10 to 20 I collected things 20 to 30 I collected things and now I'm in my 30s I feel like I'm connecting things and that
collection to connection has been primarily through the uncomfortable process of accepting and giving myself permission for the paradoxical and contradictory things that live in within me so as much as I love being fully present and mindful and deeply purifying myself I also really enjoy building and
creating and learning and being curious and outward and those two things coexist and I actually find that one feeds the other so I find that the further I go outwards the more I want to go inwards and the more I go inwards the more I want to go outwards in a positive sense
and and thaty continues and it's a cycle it's not a um and and I think both of us having studied Eastern Traditions the East is fully cyclical and not linear in in all of its practices so the growth Journey looks like this and and the Western growth Journey generally is is
portrayed as that even even though it may not be there's a way in which you can assume that sitting and meditating or even going to a can you believe this dude went to a monastery for 10 days a couple days ago like that's not going to help him with his Edge but actually it
does help you it does help you do you want to be less emotionally reactive do you want to be more focused do you want to have better relationships with your collaborators okay do you think going to a monastery is going to help or hurt with those things it's going to help
with all of those things and those are the things we need to be successful we've been sold through hustle culture this idea that you know thank God it's Monday I've got to rise and grind and all of that stuff but that that is in my experience a great way to burn out when in fact that the cycle that you just
talked about of uh Retreat to advance kind of you know you you take some you don't have to do it it doesn't even have to be a retreat it can be just 5 minutes of meditation every day that that is filling your tank in a way that allows you to engage in the world more effectively and so these these two
things are not in opposition in my experience and you're a walking example of that like you spent time being a monk and that has helped you build a business that helps other people that helps you do more inner work boom yeah no and of course and and I love what you said
there because yeah we've talked a bit about Retreats and I don't want everyone to think they need to disappear for a week or a year or whatever it may be all of this can be done in the microcosm of five minutes I want to Dan walk us through your daily meditation practice
and I'm sure you've done this a million times but I'd love for people to hear it because I'd love for people to hear how accessible some of these ideas are on a daily basis that we're talking about and of course in a way that they can start practicing it as well so what does your
daily practice look like I'm actually I'm I'm excited I'm we're you're interviewing me right now but in like two minutes we're going to turn this around and I'm going to interview you and I because we come from different Traditions so I actually come into my discussion with you with a lot
of curiosity about what your meditation is like but so from a Buddhist standpoint um it's for beginners really not complex and a lot of people worry that it's going to be you know esoteric or impossible but it it really isn't there's really three steps for beginning
mindfulness meditation and by the way I I do use I keep talking about Buddhism but this meditation that I'm talking about now is secular um there's no religious lingo or metaphysical claims it's just a it's a very simple secular kind of exercise for the brain and the first step is just to sit or lie down
comfortably close your eyes um and the second step is to bring your full attention to the feeling of your breath coming in and going out for some people um the breath is can make you a little anxious if you're focused on that and if that's you then you just pick something
else like the feeling of your body sitting or lying down so that's step number two first get into a comfortable position sitting or lying down second pick something to focus on like um your breath or the feeling of your body and then the third step is the most
important because as soon as you try to do this your mind is likely to go into Mutiny mode you're having all these random thoughts and urges and emotions and at this moment the voice in people's heads often swoops in and tells them this whole story about how they're failed meditators I mean you were
talking about this earlier but that voice is wrong the whole goal in meditation is just to notice that you've become distracted and to start again and again and again and the waking up from distraction is not proof of failure it's actually proof of success because the whole goal here is to get more familiar
with this inner conversation that we're all having this inner narrator that is chasing us out of bed in the morning and is yammering at us all day long you just want to get more familiar with this cacophony so that it doesn't own you as much so it's really that simple pick one
thing to focus on usually the breath then in a few seconds in you'll start having random thoughts about like what kind of bird was Big Bird or you know where the J JBL run wild whatever all these random thoughts as soon as you wake up from those thoughts blow them a kiss and go back to the breath back to
the breath over and over and over again and that's like a bicep curl for your brain and that's what we see on the brain scans of people who meditate that the area of the brain associated with a attention or Focus changes in a positive way meanwhile the area of the brain
associated with stress shrinks and this is the an exercise that anybody can do I will say small asterisk if you have significant mental health challenges or trauma it might be good to do it under the supervision of a mental health professional but other than that it really is universally accessible doesn't
matter what your religious beliefs are or if like me you're an agnostic this is simple secular exercise for your brain yeah and I love what you said there is that we're really just trying to get a tune to that in a voice that is basically telling us what to do all day
and and pushing around in every direction I find that that voice is often led us to achieve incredible things that voice often leads us to achieve things and still feel unfulfilled that voice has almost become such a friend in so many ways and sometimes toxic friend it's almost a
toxic relationship we have with the voice inside of our head where we listen to it but we don't always like it but sometimes it helps us win and sometimes it you know sometimes it helps us get one up on someone and then other times it lets us down and it's it's doing all
of this it's almost like I think like a toxic relationship we're scared of letting go of that voice because it's almost like what do I replace it with I'm just going to be alone well couple things to say about that one is there are many voices you I mean the one of the theories of modern psychological
series theories is called the the modular model of mind that we have these modes I kind of think about it like you remember um magic eight balls yeah you shake one up yeah I still love that and and uh and the tiles compete for the top space that you that and then it'll send
you a message or whatever so we have a bunch of tiles in our head and they're all competing for that little for the steering wheel right and so I've got a jealous mode an angry mode a fearful mode a self-critical mode and I think often the self critical mode is the one
with a steering wheel but you have a wise mode a generous mode a compassionate mode and they're often just not getting uh that much air time and there are ways through meditation through therapy being in nature uh exercise that can bring the healthier tiles to the surface and so that's just
one thing to say um and then the other thing to say is that um yeah it's true that this self-criticism it's it's we're we're scared that if we let it go that we'll be on the couch eating ice cream until the end of time and that's just not what's going to happen uh back to
Tibetan Buddhism and I'm not an expert in it but they have this expression that my I have a couple of colleagues who are sitting on a couch over here who heard me say this a million times but I really love this this I there's the the Tibetan word for enlightenment as far as I
understand it roughly translates into a clearing away and a bringing forth you clear away the noise all of our all of our demons our unhelpful demons what can come out is what is already there in in all of us which is the good stuff you know I you might use the worded the loaded word love and I
think of love as like sort of an overarching term that encompasses things like generosity compassion kindness patience uh um ethics and that is in US of course it's in us because back to Evolution as a social species we needed all that stuff in in order to cooperate
and collaborate and become the apex predator on the planet and when you turn the volume down on the you know shittier aspects of our nature the good stuff will come out and it's it's it has an edge it has the edge that you want it it does want to create beautiful and
important things in the world it does want to take care of you too as well as it wants to take care of everybody it it does um it does want to stand up to Injustice it does want to be tough but not motivated by hatred instead by the good stuff which is like giving a caring um anyway that's that's all my
experience about this absolutely and and you're not I'm not perfect at it by any stretch I mean I've been I made a reference to the Liz and Tony who are sitting in the room with us like give them the mic they'll tell you you know 90% still a Absol no no no but but I love the idea of how
we're simply reconnecting with and Reawakening something we've forgotten so it's almost like we're associating with that angry mode that Envy mode that jealousy mode that ego mode every day yeah and so we've started to accept that it's our reality and normality whereas
you said we do also have a wise mode it's just that we haven't experienced it either outside of us or inside of us for so long that we' forgotten it's there but it is there it is accept and I think that is not only true based on the wisdom Traditions we've studied but it's
also empowering to recognize that this isn't something new you're having to figure out or develop it's an ability that almost exists within you already that has just been buried and covered over by all these other layers of identification and impurities exactly you've been so vulnerable a couple of
times to mentioned this thing inside of you as an anger mode you were saying earlier you have two modes and one of them was anger and I wanted if it's okay to kind of like kind of hone in on that because I think that's something we've actually never really discussed on the
podcast in in all the guests we've had and I think it's something that often is something people are scared of talking about it's a taboo topic because of the connotations that anger is associated with and I was wondering how has meditation and mindfulness what have they shown you or helped you understand
about anger because I think I think our mind often goes to well I want to stop being angry rather than I want to understand anger and I think this is so true for so many things in society we like I wish that would just stop and it's almost like well before it stops we
may need to get to know it a bit better and understand it and befriend it going back to the high five point you made earlier and so I thought let's start with anger for that sure I mean there's this great I know you know who he is but there's this great Vietnamese Zen tikn
Han and he has this um this expression about like holding your anger like a like a baby I don't love that because I'm such an anti- sentimentalist and I you know it I find it like somewhat annoying um even though I he's completely right um he's a genius or was
a genius he passed recently um there's something to that first of all the anger is trying to tell you something mhm um in my case it's like some infantile usually desire to protect myself um and um often it's um sometimes anger has been described as a secondary emotion so it's an emotion that's
covering up for another emotion and in my case it's usually fear so I'm a guy uh and uh we don't like to admit fear and often if I look closely if I hold the anger like a like a a crying child if I get over myself and do the thing that the wise person has mentioned that
we should probably do I actually see oh yeah yeah there I'm scared of something here and that's really helpful because then I can I can respond wisely to the thing that's making me angry SL scared rather than reacting blindly there's a difference between healthy anger and destructive anger again this is not my
insight this is the way in psychological circles they talk about healthy anger is that can get you off the couch to do something about a problem and I and it's it's clarifying it it can help healthy anger can help us see clearly where somebody's full of although there's
a reason why we talk about anger as seeing red because it can also be you know blind with blind rage um and so that's the destructive anger which um we're that's an anger fueled by hatred fueled by bias bigotry um and it can get us into to endless conflict and that's what you
want to avoid that's what I've failed to avoid for too many times in my own life and I still screw that up you know regularly um but it's nothing can happen until you identify the problem you talked about this earlier you know like one of the things that meditation does
for you is it helps you be aware of stuff so that you can work with it and so yeah this is one of my big things that I have to work with yeah thank you for sharing that no I I I really value that understanding of hey the difference in the two angers that you just mentioned there but
also yeah just just being able to recognize the fear that sits beneath it and I I can when I get agitated or irritated it's always because there's something I'm fearful of and often it's even the fear fear of messing up you know it's for me I'm I'm thinking of when I'm asked a question and I feel
like I don't have any enough time to solve it and then I'm like oh just you know whatever like that kind of agitation that irritation comes out and really it's a fear of I'm like I wish we had more time I would be able to solve this like I don't want to mess up I
don't want to give and and so and it's so interesting that what is actually well-intentioned of a desire to want to get things right turns out to be experienced as that and like you said and like you mentioned tick onet of being able to hold it as a baby or being able
to yeah it's almost like it's so interesting though what you said about the skep not the skepticism that you have but the you know you you were saying the overly sentimental version of holding a baby and I think often that is the perspective people have of these ideas right with mindfulness with
meditation that oh it's sentimental it's a bit fluffy it's a bit woo woo and we know there's science behind it now and those those days should be gone but they're not because there's still a skepticism and cynicism around the idea of like oh yeah my fear is like whatever
there's no fear right because that in and of itself is trying to protect us from or trying to protect us from our fear and so how have you seen in others and how have you in yourself been able to catch yourself double bluffing yourself or when you're almost you know you you're finding that way around doing
the actual work one of the biggest and most reliable sources of feedback for me is um defensiveness or dismissiveness if I am dismissing something out of hand it's usually something I should listen to and if I'm getting defensive it's because there's something I know I should hear
that I'm unwilling to hear at that moment and uh I almost never catch I almost never catch it in the moment like I almost never catch it in the moment but it's usually when I feel embarrassed the next day you know it's like it it's just I keep coming back to this no I'm
so pissed that this person said this thing it's like ah they're probably right um and so I actually got an email the other day from I won't say her name because she didn't give me permission but from a great meditation teacher who was talking to me about something and
she I didn't recall her getting defensive but she recalled herself getting defensive about something I was pushing her on something and she wrote me an email the next day she was like I woke up thinking about how I was defensive and that means that there's something I really need to listen to
there so I'm going to go in the direction you push me and that that's usually how I get past the Double Bluff yeah I think for me it comes out in if I'm judging someone so I find that if I'm judging someone that there's a sense of truth that that exists within me somewhere and so I need to explore
that that which I'm judging in someone else and I've been working on that one and that's the hardest one and it's the most embarrassing too because it's like you it feels good point at the other person they such a schmuck or whatever but like of course you're seeing it so
clearly and and you're you hate it so much because it's it's in you yeah and it's so funny because when you see it in them you're like how can they not be aware that they're like that and at the same time you're talking about yourself and you know you recognized you're not
you're not even aware when you're like that and I think that's where I notice where I'm where it's easy to Double Bluff myself and I have to be conscious of that goes along your lines too it's you're building a story to support your view without evidence and without
research and without looking at all of the facts and you know you've you've created a story that makes sense to you in order to fulfill your your desire whatever that may be and then you're not forced to actually look at yourself there's a great expression uh if it's hysterical
it's historical you know if like you're getting hysterical about something there's some it's some deep programming and yeah I hate admitting that yeah I think we're both we're both going back and forth admitting all of our admitting all of our flaws and challenges and and issues but but that's
what meditation does right just that this is actually what what's transpired without without intention or maybe with intention but actually this is the benefit of practicing mindfulness and meditation is a really healthy relationship with all of your imperfections I mean you
interview all sorts of people but you interview a lot of like great folks from the meditation world and and so do I and so in my experience the common denominator among all of the great like spiritual Masters right if that's a term that you're okay with the common denominator is they all have a sense of
humor because how can you look at at this mind without laugh after a while the word that my meditation teacher Joseph Goldstein uses most frequently is ridiculous yes yes because we're ridiculous we're ridiculous and it's just it's so healthy to see that and
laugh at it yeah definitely yeah I I teachers would obviously always talk about the monkey mind yes and although that's somewhat of a alien analogy to some degree at least when you've grown up in England or in the US because you're not seeing monkeys all the time but when I have gone to certain
spiritual sites in India that are you know infiltrated with monkeys it will only make you laugh like I've seen monkeys uh you know rip bags to steal fruit I've seen monkeys steal people's sunglasses and then trade it back for food I've seen I've seen monkeys uh steal credit cards like and and know how
to barter for what they want like I've seen seen monkeys put on sunglasses like all you need to do I mean me and my wife and a year and we went to the monkey Forest there and the monkeys are just hilarious and ridiculous is is the word and it's almost like when you start
seeing the habits of the Mind as a monkey it's so easy to laugh at it because you just realize how ridiculous it is and how how hilarious they are and how uncontrollable they are as opposed to looking at it as this thing like almost like a Rubik's Cube which we sometimes see it as and you get
frustrated trying to figure it out as first when you look at a monkey you go well a monkey is going to be a monkey so I'm not surprised when my mind is ridiculous I'm not expecting my mind to be this you know you never looking at a monkey expecting it to be sitting there
meditating on top of a rock you're expecting to see a monkey jump from Branch to branch and swing and you know whatever else it may be and all of a sudden when you can and you have to have had the real experience of that in order to even have that really sit I'm like if
I hadn't seen and then a couple of years ago I went to Rwanda and we treed with gorillas and we saw the little B baby gorillas who were just playful and silly and the sound of their laugh and and just what they were like and you just start to recognize you need to this is why what you just said earlier you you
mentioned it passively but observing nature is such a beautiful way of understanding ourselves and again going back to your earliest Point our disconnection from each other and nature means we're only seeing systems and machines and the way systems and machines work and now our expectation of
our mind to work the same way I I want to turn my mind off and I want to turn my mind on because we've seen the system of on and off on a light switch to a phone to a tablet for so many years now that we've lost the idea of wait a minute the sun sets and the sun rises
but it doesn't sun off and sun on and we've lost that concept of there is no instant on and off and there is no instant switch there is only nature doing its cycle and its phases and its rituals almost to pick up on the instant part of it you know it it kind of takes me back to the first question you asked
around stress and we talked about some of the contributors I think one of the contributors is that we live in a world that doesn't have enough friction that uh We've created a world for young people and to me you're a young person but um because I'm in my 50s and you're
in your 30s but I have a 9-year-old who's a much younger person and we you know there's a way that older people can blame younger people for for their their um oh this generation or kids today whatever but we this is a world we've created for them where there isn't a lot
of friction you can get everything you want on demand um and as a consequence people are intolerant of discomfort and that is creating a lot of anxiety because life is uncomfortable and there are going to be stressful and uh scary situations and your ability to thrive is
going to be directly correlated to your ability to handle this and if we don't get comfortable with discomfort we're going to suffer and there are ways to work with this one of them is um this thing that it's a psychological term opposite action you know when you oh I'll give you an example um I have
intense claustrophobia uh and when your uh colleague Jordan came to pick me up uh in the lobby of the hotel in which we're doing this interview and uh take me up the elevator I said I have to ride alone because I didn't want to have a panic attack in front of her wow um but I got
on the elevator I didn't want to I thought about walking 30 flights and I've done that before wow sorry I feel terrible now I wish we would have known that how you set this up dude what are you doing to me no I I I but the the the lesson here is that I need to get on
elevators regularly that's the way out of this it's opposite action I need to do the thing I'm scared of carefully I don't want to give myself a panic attack although there are some people who argue that that is a way through this but for me I just kind of gently expose myself
to the stuff I'm afraid of and so I actually look I relish the opportunity to get on an elevator or to take a subway ride I just have to do it in the right circumstances so I didn't inflict it upon Jordan I just took a different elevator and I actually think this is
one of the this is one of the ways out one of the ways out of the epidemic of Stress and Anxiety that we began this conversation with which is to in whatever way in your own life to just dose yourself carefully and gently with some discomfort to take the opposite action do the opposite of what you want
to do which maybe to you know hide from the discomfort go to that party accept the invitation uh ask that person out for a cup of coffee um press like on that Instagram post you know Little Steps like that will will equip you and arm you to move through a world that is
largely out of your control Dan thank you so much it's been uh such a joy talking to you to and I've really I've really enjoyed how you know this conversation turned into the benefits of meditation without listing the benefits of meditation but the uh but the acceptance of the benefits being a
deeper awareness of who we are what we need to improve and doing that with love with kindness with gentleness as opposed to hate pressure and stress that we often place on ourselves but we end every episode with a final fin five and these final five have to be answered in
one word to one sentence maximum each and so Dan these are your final five the first question is what is the best advice about mindfulness that you've ever heard or received just start again I like that yeah beautiful what is the second question is what is the worst advice about mindfulness or meditation
that you've ever heard or received clear your mind it's so bad it's so bad it's so bad uh and it was almost marketed like that for a long time yeah for a long long time yeah question number three how would you define your current purpose make awesome that helps
people do their lives better I love that uh question number four a thought that you'd like to repeat more often well I got a tattoo recently uh nice um it's an acronym FTB o a b uh it's way off brand for me in terms of like U it's cheesier than I like to be but um it stands it's
a Buddhist phrase for the benefit of all beings um and we talked about my anger habit but one of my other habits that I also mentioned that I I don't like is a kind of selfishness or greed and so I really try to remind myself as much as possible like no the I'm I'm answering
this in more than a word Sor no it's brilliant it's a great onet it's a great on please continue but I try to remind myself yeah this is for the benefit of all beings and the a the all I'm in included in that so it's not like I can't make a living or whatever but but
I having it right here next to my watch I I'm trying to put that thought in my head more frequently I love that that's a beautiful answer uh Fifth and final question which we asked every guest who's ever been on the show if you could create one law that everyone in the world had to follow what would it
be how long do most people pause cuz I'm thinking you people take forever and uh that's why you picked up the book you're like I'm going to read a chapter yeah we either we either allow we either allow people to edit it out or they can have their thinking time in the edit
whatever they prefer okay um what law and take your time it's a fun question so I prefer it when people think about it and I I don't think this is something that you can uh legislate um so I wouldn't want to force it but it would be like a a strong suggestion which is around
kindness which is that um maybe I'll use this phrase from the dollar Lama that I like better than kindness because kindness can sound very Bland wise selfishness that uh if you want to do selfishness correctly MH you will be thinking about the benefit of all beings to the best of
your ability because that is how you will get happier yeah um and if we lived Our Lives all of us with that as a North star which again I don't know if I could make it a law but I could make it a strongly held policy I think that would change a lot I think that would change
I'm not a utopian I don't believe that we can create a perfect world but I think that we can create a much better world if if we play to people's self-interest in a way that really is in their self-interest instead of the fleeting dopamine hits that we're selling people on now that actually your
abiding happiness is going to be found in um in kindness and I I wish there was a less cheesy way to say that that's a great answer I love it everyone more than more than a sentence sorry it's perfect it was perfect uh the 10th anniversary edition of Dan's book 10%
happier how I tame the voice of my head reduced stress without Losing My Edge and found self-help that actually works a true story is available right now of course with the 10th anniversary edition that's amazing congratulations that's really much grayer now than when the book came out and and of course
subscribe to Dan's podcast 10% happier as well uh Dan thank you so much for coming on to on purpose uh this was such a refreshing and really really beautiful organic conversation and I appreciate you going there with me because that's kind of the space I've been in on the
show recently of wanting to get lost with someone just to go into a flow it's so interesting to meet you because I mean this is a long way of saying thank you um it's just so interesting to meet you because I've seen you from afar for a million years and then just to like
walk into this hotel room you're like this dude who just shows up they hey how you doing like you're way more casual and down to earth than I might have expected and so it's really fun to like put an actual person to the name you that's very sweet I really appreciate that thank you so much and U maybe we're
doing a terrible terrible job at The Branding if that's not how I come across no it's it's my own paranoia it's my own parano so funny it's so I'm like I'm like God guys we got to get it together no I really appreciate that thank you so much that's usually when you when I I
you I meet a I've met a lot of well-known people in my job um as a journalist because I it was my job to interview them and uh it's rare that I like people more after meeting them based on their public Persona and so that's what I was trying to say thank you that's very kind that's very kind
it's that's I really appreciate that thank you I I I reive that deeply and I think it's really hard I've I've definitely struggled with this like we're just I can only be fully myself with someone I'm in person with it's impossible to I I find it impossible to
be your whole self on a 30 second video or a you know if someone listens to the podcast I feel they know me because they're hearing you know full conversations of an hour each week so or every day some people listen to like I feel if someone listens to the podcast they have a deep deep understanding of
me or if they've read the books but if someone's just seeing something on social media they have such a limited view and it's so hard uh to to portray yourself in that way or in your in your true self so so I appreciate that thank you so much thank you Dan thanks for
having it's been a real treat thank you so much thank you so much for listening to this conversation if you enjoyed it you'll love my chat with Adam Grant on why discomfort is the key to growth and the strategies for unlocking your hidden potential if you know you want to be
more and achieve more this year go check it out right now you set a goal today you achieve it in 6 months and then by the time it happens it's almost a relief there's no sense of meaning and purpose you sort of expected it and you would have been disappointed if it didn't happen