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Hello boys and girls, ladies and germs. I'm Kevin Rose.
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Welcome to new episode of the Tim Ferriss Show, but this episode is a random show episode. Kevin, nice to see you.
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Dude, good to see you, brother. Been too long.
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It has been a little while and as as I'm sitting here, you know, I'm holding this $80 mic in a probably what is a stand that cost 15 cents to manufacture and we were laughing a little bit before recording because you mentioned that you had a family plan with some piece of software instead of the business plan because it saves you like $3 a month. Right. And I do this a lot.
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Yeah, I was wondering like where are you unreasonably cheap or sensitive?
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Yeah, I still have a bunch of stupid completely outdated behaviors around saving like I mean literally a dollar here, a dollar there, $20 here, $20 there and I was like and the reason I'm holding this mic is because my cable is too short to have power and this mic in this confined space at the same time.
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So after 600 episodes, maybe it's time for me to invest in a better rig.
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Yeah, I mean you have you have budget for that, I would imagine.
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I do have Of all of the things that I should put a little little coin into, that would be one.
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Is there anything that you're you're stupidly frugal about?
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Oh, dude, there's a ton of things.
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Like this is the weird thing is is I think it it it comes down from like being raised with not a lot of cash and then having a little bit more disposable income as you get older.
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And when when you think about like one of the things I did is I signed up for the the Spotify couples plan which is like cuz there's there's like a a five pack or something in the family plan, but there's a there's a special couples plan where you it's just two people.
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And so I did that because it saves me like $3 a month, but the other thing though that sucks is like then you can't tie any other accounts to any of the other devices.
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So like for example, I have you know, my my Sonos is my account and my wife's account is in her Tesla and then in my Tesla is my account.
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And so like I'll be driving around and like it'll get switched off because somebody turns on the Sonos or something like that and it's all because I don't want to spend an extra $4 so I can have those extra couple of accounts.
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So I just want to point out for people who missed it.
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Two individual Teslas, but at least you're saving those $3 a month. Right, exactly.
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Yeah, saving that three bucks. Old habits die hard.
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Old habits die hard, man.
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I mean We don't have the expensive Teslas.
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We have we have the the inexpensive ones. It's okay. You're allowed.
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I would also say, you know, I grew up where we would eat we had a lot of TV dinners growing up, right?
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I mean we did not we did not have a lot of money and I became very sensitive to wasting food.
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wasting food. So I would say if I look back at the food poisoning or anything bordering on food poisoning that I've had in the last two years, I'd say at least 50% of it is self-inflicted and it's from saving not
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wanting to throw away food and then like forgetting about some like you know, some equivalent of like chicken tenders or something that I got on takeout and then I eat it like four days past the expiration date and then I'm floored for two or three days. So So stupid. So stupid.
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I used to love Dinty Moore Beef Stew.
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We did a lot of tuna helper at my house, which was odd cuz the hamburger helper was way better than that damn tuna helper. That sounds terrible.
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Never even heard of tuna helper.
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There was tuna helper back in the day.
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I hope they discontinued it cuz it was absolutely horrible.
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But for some reason my dad was like, oh, tuna's better for him than hamburger or something.
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So it was it was always when dad was cooking.
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Like when my mom was when my mom was cooking, it was like a good meal.
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When dad when dad had to like step into the kitchen, like out came the tuna helper or Dinty Moore Beef Stew or you know, whatever that was in the cans. Oh, what a mess. All right.
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So we'll segue from outdated behaviors.
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We could we could do a whole episode on those.
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Where would you like to start?
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I could kick it off if you want with a bunch of books because I've been doing a lot of reading.
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So let's let's start with books and there's there's a little something for everybody here because I have been reading a lot and in some cases it's more of a show and tell than reading.
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So I'll I'll show you the cover of one that I think you'll particularly like.
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This is a book called Visions of Japan and the subtitle is Kawase, that's k a w a s e, Hasui, h a s u i Kawase Hasui's masterpieces.
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So I'll just show the cover here.
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And it's a it's a beautiful collection of woodblock prints and some people will recognize for instance at least one piece of art by Hokusai who has the very famous piece of these almost fractal like waves coming over from left to right, these oarsmen in boats that are coming into these huge waves and a lot of people would recognize this particular image.
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Kawase's style is very different.
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Specializes mostly in landscape, trees and uses snow to tremendous effect.
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and uses snow to tremendous effect. So the assistants he had ultimately in his workshop were helping with the development of the woodblocks had to develop new techniques to accommodate the complexity of the snow and I was
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introduced to this particular artist through Maria Popova who created BrainPickr, BrainPickings, which is now called the Marginalia which doesn't exactly roll off the tongue, but so it goes, which is a is a newsletter and a site that has millions and millions of subscribers now. She's
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She's been on the podcast a few times.
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Started as a casual email to I want to say six friends at a time and has grown into this behemoth.
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She's an incredible writer and prolific prolific writer and she had a post on Kawase Hasui.
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So that's number one and it's it's almost all visual as you can see here.
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It has crazy beautiful pieces from every era, every chapter of his life and every possible season and condition in Japan.
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So this brought back a lot of wonderful memories.
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So as a coffee table book, something that's easy to dip in and out of that you don't have to read start to finish, that's one.
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I also recently finished a book called A Moral Man or Amoral Man depending on how you read it and I I know that is deliberate.
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So it's one word, a m o r a l m a n which was recommended to me by Mark Plotkin, Dr.
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Mark Plotkin who's an is an ethno botanist and expert primarily in Central and South American medicinal plants, but has a fantastic podcast where he goes into one plant or or a or a set set of plants per episode.
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These aren't like psychedelic.
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These are like full medicinal like They're both.
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So there's some psychedelics.
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He he knows those very very well.
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But he'll he'll do an entire episode on tobacco, then an entire episode on cannabis, then an entire episode which will include hemp and the history of of hemp in the United States.
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He'll do an entire episode on coca, an entire episode on wine for instance and it goes back and covers the entire history from sort of day one of human history as we have it recorded. Fascinating show. Really fun. Really really fun.
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I want to hear that tobacco one.
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I I wish tobacco was better for you.
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And I and I say that because I don't I've never smoked at all. Yeah.
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But I have had a tobacco infused cocktail one time.
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Oh my god, dude, those are amazing. It's strong. It's strong.
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I was at this restaurant in San Francisco and they had taken tobacco leaves and they infused it in this bourbon.
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And they're not supposed to do this.
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It's like totally illegal.
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It was just like some kind of illegal stuff. Yeah.
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And so I ordered I'm like, that sounds interesting like tobacco infused and they're they're like, no no no, like it's real tobacco leaves. Are you cool with that?
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And I'm like, well, I'm not smoking it, I guess.
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But I then I later read, you know, obviously any form of like getting tobacco in you is bad for you.
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And so I drank it and one cocktail and I stand up and I felt like my feet were sinking into the ground. I almost fell over.
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I was buzzed like super high. I was like, oh my god.
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If you never do nicotine and then you hit that nicotine, it's real.
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It can knock you on your ass. And Yeah. just safety note.
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So there's an entire book.
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It's very academic and dense, so I don't recommend it necessarily, but there's an entire book and I'm going to come back to Amoral Man.
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But there's a book called something like Tobacco Use in South American Shamanism and it's an older book.
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I want to say it was published in the 70s or 80s.
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The author has a name along the lines of like Johan or Johann Wilbert, I want to say.
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I've read this entire book and tobacco use is is highly prevalent across most of the Amazon.
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It's consumed in different ways.
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This is true in North America as well. And if you look at ways.
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What do you mean by consumed in different ways?
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Like what are the different Like there's oral means there's smoking, but there are many different ways of smoking.
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There are snuffs, so you could you have insufflation, so inhaling tobacco in one form or another often combined with other things.
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You have blowing tobacco either smoke or ground tobacco into the anus. That's one.
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You have You're just being serious?
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I'm being totally serious.
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You have uh drinking of tobacco juice, which is is the one I I wanted to mention as in addition to several others very dangerous.
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So a number of people have died in the last few years in South America as Let's just call it psychedelic tourists who have ingested tobacco juice.
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I mean you can end up with tachycardia and then heart attacks and all sorts of issues. It's very dangerous.
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You can die of nicotine poisoning.
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So you need to be extremely cautious about it.
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Have you tried any of these? I have stayed away.
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I've I have experienced sort of insufflation.
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A lot of people now it's trendy.
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I think it's actually uh too trendy in the sense that it can do quite a bit of damage if you're overusing it, but people listening may recognize a word called rapé or hapé.
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Some people say it with the hapé like the Brazilian pronunciation because they don't want it to sound like rapey.
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Uh rapé, but it is a pulverized tobacco often mixed with other things that people will blow into their own nostrils.
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So there's a V-shaped joined pair of tubing and you stick one end in your mouth and you've already compressed some version of tobacco into the other side and then you blow it into your nostril and with other things, what is it typically mixed with?
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It really depends on It's like a It's like a cocktail.
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It depends on who you're purchasing it from, which tribe I A lot of these are of dubious origin in the sense that many psychedelic or psychedelic compounds are spun a yarn of this incredible history of indigenous use, whereas for instance toad, so sometimes referred to as Bufo the the molecule in question is 5-MeO-DMT, 5-methoxy-DMT.
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There's this entire story now uh versions of a story spun about indigenous use and there seems to be no compelling evidence that there's actual indigenous use of the uh Bufo alvarius toad.
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Goes by a number of other Latin names, but the Sonoran Desert toad.
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There seems to be no compelling evidence that this specific toad was used as a source of 5-MeO by any indigenous group.
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And in fact, it was Ken Nelson an amateur biochemist who was a genius in many respects who ultimately through trial and error developed smoked uh venom from Bufo alvarius as one means of of consuming 5-MeO-DMT.
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Now 5-MeO-DMT is found in other things.
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It's found in other plant species, many plant species in different types of tree nuts, for instance, something called yopo.
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There are many different sources, but the I guess the point I want to make, which is a long answer to your question, is that a lot of these tobacco cocktails that that are being sold to blow up your own nostril or nostrils I don't think have any basis in indigenous use.
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But sometimes it's mixed with things that are not psychotropic.
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I advise generally against this.
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I mean there are potential uses, blah blah blah, but I know people who, just as you can with cigarettes, become addicted to rapé, but because they're in Venice and you know, doing like a ayahuasca retreat and everyone's talking about how highly evolved they are by blowing it up their nostril instead of smoking it suddenly it's socially reinforced.
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And then you have you have people who are going through like an entire canister of this stuff every week because they're addicted to nicotine.
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Well, and it's it's still they've still proven that this is like bad for the heart and like causes cancer.
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Like this different delivery mechanism doesn't get around that in any way, right?
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Yeah, I mean you can you can definitely do plenty of damage. I I don't know.
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There may in fact be medical applications.
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I I I'm not well enough versed in sort of contemporary medical applications of nicotine.
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I I know that there there are almost certainly potential medical applications which would be administered in some way that is not smoking, right?
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Because like lung cancer lung cancer will kill you. Let's be clear. Yeah.
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I I know that there was a I had read something around a study that was done on the nicotine patches and it was more around heart health and there was being some potential negative effects around that, but I know a lot of the biohacker community, at least a few people that I bumped into they like the nicotine patches.
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They'll they'll slap it on and it's it's a nice little booster, you know, you take it with your coffee in the morning and it's like you you did a rail or something.
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Like it's Oh, it it'll light you up and it will also put you on the ground.
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I mean I've I've experienced rapé a number of times.
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It's It's not my It's not my like go-to Tuesday wake me up or anything, but and I remember doing it with someone who at the time with someone who who was using it probably I don't know, 10 to 15 times a week, somewhere somewhere in that range, like twice a day.
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And he had a really high tolerance and he packed my tube with and he's also like mid-200s probably in body weight, so he packed this tube and I blew it up my nostril and I immediately broke out into like a cold sweat, room is spinning and I needed to lay on my back for like 45 minutes. It was awful.
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It was absolutely terrible.
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So don't take it lightly.
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This is a detour we took off of Mark Plotkin.
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Check out his podcast Plant of the Gods.
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He also wrote a book called either The or A Shaman's Apprentice, which is very very good about his adventures in places like Suriname. Really knows his stuff.
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He was a protégé of an incredible uh sort of father of ethnobotany in the United States called Richard Evans Schultes, who was at Harvard.
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I've had Mark on the on the podcast before, fascinating guy.
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Also runs a nonprofit called the Amazon Conservation Team, which does really interesting work in helping indigenous communities in particular not only to secure their land as protected, but also to monitor it using you know, Raspberry Pi and technology and so on because you can't If you can't enforce the boundaries and prevent poachers and illegal logging and so on, there's not really much value to a place being protected.
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Yeah, if it makes any sense. Yeah.
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But Mark recommended this book A Moral Man by a guy named Derek DelGaudio.
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So Derek DelGaudio, d e l g a u d i o, I recognized because there is a one-man show that he did on Hulu or it was available on Hulu.
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It was performed in New York City with uh storytelling sleight of hand kind of stage mentalism, although a lot of it was just like brute force incredible memorization called In and Of Itself.
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So if anyone hasn't seen Derek DelGaudio's show In and Of Itself, Kevin, you would love this. Awesome. It's so good.
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So Derek DelGaudio In and Of Itself, I recognized the one-man show and A Moral Man goes into his entire life story of growing up with a single mom and then learning about magic, ultimately becoming a card mechanic in illegal games, like high-stakes card games.
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And the whole story is is really good.
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I was very impressed with the writing.
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So that's that's one and then the last one I'll mention is a novel.
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It's called Ka, just k a by John Crowley and it is a long book.
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It's I would guess I read it on Kindle, but probably 4 to 500 pages about a single crow who basically I don't think I'll give away too much here by saying it's reincarnated over and over and over again and develops the ability to communicate with humans. And it's a cool book.
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I will warn you in advance that it takes literally a hundred pages probably to get warmed up to the point where you're like, oh, this is actually now interesting.
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So there's a lot of setup involved, so be warned.
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But John Crowley is is interesting to me because he wrote a book another book that takes about a hundred pages to get warmed up with called Little, Big, Little {comma} Big.
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And that is one of the best novels I've ever read in my life.
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It It leaves you in a altered state for at least left me and I know several other people in an altered state for a few weeks after you read this book. Wow.
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Which Which one was that called? I'm taking notes here. What are you saying? It's so good. Little, Big. Little, Big.
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And I think the an alternate subtitle or a a sometimes included subtitle is like the fairies parliament or something like that.
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But the pro tip with little big, it's so good.
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It it is I just I'm telling people in advance it's like some heavy lifting in the beginning because you have to establish a bunch of context.
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Once you get to the talking fish, you'll know that you're about to turn a corner into the really wild fascinating stuff.
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But there is a family tree in the beginning of the paperback edition which was given to me as gift by my brother and I put it down.
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I tried to read it and put it down like three times and I'm just like why did my brother give this to me?
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Like it's not that interesting in the beginning.
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And then when it finally turns the corner you're like, oh my god, this is one of the best books I've ever read. And Wow. So you're back in.
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You you gave up reading new books for a while.
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Well, I gave up this is like a technical point that that I think is worth underscoring.
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I gave up and I still am giving up reading new books meaning books that are published in this year. But I am reading books.
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So I'm reading books, but John Crowley's book Little Big as well as Ka these were published many years ago.
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And the reason I made that decision and policy is because I get deluged with like dozens of books a week that I don't request.
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They get sent to me and then People want you to plug them. I get the same thing.
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You get them in the mail and you're just like, yeah.
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And sometimes they're friends, right?
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And a very often they're friends.
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I mean that's like I've done 600 episodes.
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So it's like of those 600 people, how many of them write continuously and have books coming out? A lot, right?
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So I can't accommodate all of them.
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Even if I if I can have one of them on the podcast, if all I did was read one out of every 10 books sent to me, I would never have time to do anything else.
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So there's this blog post I wrote oh quite a while back called I think it's like the one finding the one decision that removes a thousand decisions, something like that.
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If people search it they can find it. If they go to tim.
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blog/newbooks they'll see it because we I send that now to people so it doesn't feel like a personalized decline.
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rolling 12 months people.
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Don't send them books all in December and expect it to happen.
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Well, I actually put I put something at the beginning of it which was like this has been extended indefinitely.
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So basically if you're about to send me a book that is like sent in any new year, like forget about it, right?
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So it's going to be a tough sell.
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But those are some of the books that I've I've been enjoying and I will probably go into I think John Crowley has a a collection like a three-part series that is Egypt or AE Egypt spelled with an AE.
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So I may dig into that next.
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But his I I think the book that kind of mesmerized the most people that I'm aware of is the the little big.
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And I I left something out.
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So in the beginning there's a there's a family tree.
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Do yourself a huge favor and take a photograph of that or shit's going to get really confusing.
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So take a take a photograph even if it's on Kindle like take your phone out and take photograph of the family tree cuz you're going to want to refer back to it. Fantastic book.
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So that is some of my Awesome.
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information diet at the moment.
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I've got one book to mention. Yeah, go for it.
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Peter Teal, mutual friend obviously been on your show a bunch.
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He turned me on and he actually had an episode of the his podcast the Peter Teal Drive where he interviewed Terry Real which is um this fantastic therapist mainly focused on actually male therapy and issues around that males run into.
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And he I got invited to join a men's group with Terry actually.
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Yeah, I'd never done one of these.
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I don't know if you've done men's groups I've never done men's groups It's really interesting.
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I hadn't either and I was invited to join one of these men's groups and essentially it is picture eight people over Zoom. Terry's there as well.
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So you have your therapist in the room and I'd never done any type of group therapy thing before.
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I'd done individual therapy and couples therapy but never group.
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And it was he kicks it off by saying, okay, we're going to go around the room and we're going to spend everyone gets 10 minutes that to just tell me what's on your mind, what's going on.
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And there's none of this [ __ ] like, well, I took my kids out and all that. It's like, no, no, no.
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What is it hitting you at a deep level that you are struggling with?
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And he calls you on your [ __ ] Like if it's such generic answers cuz everybody has their [ __ ] right?
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Like their thing that they're they're struggling with like my spouse did this or you know, like there could be a any slew of different things that you're running into, you know, like right now for me it's my mom's dealing with cancer, right?
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So I like that was the thing that I went into.
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And you spend those first 10 15 minutes and it's really eye-opening and and they put you in a group of like peers that that when you look around the room you're like you're kind of in a similar stage in life.
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And you you have these really deep conversations and one person can be, you know, got caught cheating on their wife or whatever it may be.
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And you realize instantly like, oh my god, like so many people actually struggle with the same things that I struggle with every single day in my head which is nice. It's refreshing.
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And then the people that are having the most pain for that particular session, he does this a couple times a month.
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It's a two-hour-long session.
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They he'll go deep with those people.
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So say, okay, you're the two people today we're going to go deep with.
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And then you just watch as he dissects and just ninjas around and gets them often times to tears by the end of it.
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And really really goes in deep into some of these issues that these men are bringing up.
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And I had never really thought about doing that and it was a really beautiful thing and you're very supportive.
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Like you all you never like they always say, does anyone want to comment on what this person just said?
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And it's never about judging them or saying, well, I think you're doing this wrong.
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It's more like, this is how this landed on me.
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Is that a rule that was established up front? It is a rule.
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There's a handful of rules.
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Yeah, what are the rules?
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So you you comment on how it landed on you and how it you see it through your lens, but this is only applicable to you.
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You can say general supportive things like like I thought you were really courageous for saying that.
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Thank you for sharing it with me, things like that.
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You can always pass at any time.
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So if anything makes you uncomfortable, you can always pass.
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There is 100% like what happens in this room stays in this room.
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We're talking about some very kind of crazy topics here that maybe some people haven't disclosed it to their even closest friends or partners, right?
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There's all kinds of issues that I heard came up where I was just like I I can't believe we're talking about this, but it's it's nice.
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It's nice to know that other men are struggling with the stuff.
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And so that was fantastic and I've been doing that for a few months now.
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And it's led me to just I don't know.
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There was some great insights in there that I just came away with.
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But then it led me actually to Terry's books as well because you know, these are quite expensive kind of groups cuz Terry's a pretty sought-after type of individual therapist.
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And so he has this book that he turned us on to called Fierce Intimacy. That's one of his books? Yes.
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Uh Fierce Intimacy and it's it's great.
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He reads his own audiobooks so it's on Audible.
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And it's how to communicate with love and respect even when you argue.
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And this has been just a game-changer for me when it comes to how I can relate, how I can prevent self-sabotaging habits.
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You know, just how to deal with your partner in a way that is constructive and moving forward and not judging and being able to know when to let information in and take it in and digest it and let it hit your stuff like internally and when to know that the
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other person is just venting and is actually coming more from them and it's okay to put a wall up sometimes and block that information because it's where they're coming from and it shouldn't land and hit you in the wrong way. And it it's it's such a beautiful
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And it it's it's such a beautiful simple framework that I absolutely love it.
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And the other thing I love about him is he's kind of a pioneer in this space.
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He's not a therapist that that that that just sits there and listens to both sides and be like, it sounds like what you're saying is this. He takes sides.
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And therapy he's like he's like, no, that's [ __ ] wrong.
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Like you're doing this like she's right here or you know, like the and so you hear a lot of that happening in this conversation and I I'm like, finally, you know, like I like a therapist takes sides cuz sometimes I know I know I'm right sometimes, you know.
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So I just found this guy to be really refreshing and I and and and probably people that are some people are laughing cuz they know this is a really popular person.
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I first I hadn't heard of him was six months ago, but he's a very famous therapist.
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But anyway, highly recommend Fierce Intimacy.
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Darian and I both listened to it.
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My wife and I both listened to it and it's already improved the way that we communicate with each other, the way we have conversations, the way we let information flow in and and actually land on us. Mhm.
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So I'd put it in there in terms of books to recommend. How long is that book?
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I did it on Audible so I think it was like seven hours or something like that.
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it's probably like 250 pages, something like that.
29:19
Yeah, somewhere around there. Yeah. Pretty easy.
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Do you think you have found it helpful because you are also in the group or is it do you think it's effective as a standalone, the book?
29:30
Absolutely cuz Darian listened to it not being in the group obviously and she found it effective as a standalone as well.
29:35
And I the reason I like it is it it it doesn't dance around this like we always have to be head over heels in love.
29:44
It's like every single day that you wake up, it's one person might be up, one person might be down, and it's always about finding your way back to that middle safe like comfort zone.
29:54
And relationships are nothing but you have these moments of beautiful things and bliss happening, but largely it's about the other the other points, right?
30:04
And like how you get back to those states.
30:08
Yeah, and returning back to that state of health, right?
30:10
And in understanding and how to how to both know that you're on the same team and and have the same goals in mind and working with a framework that that supports that. So, Yeah.
30:21
I I don't know, I really loved it.
30:23
And and I'm not a I I I've really struggled.
30:25
I listened to a couple other relationship books because, you know, I'm always trying to improve.
30:28
I've been married 9 years now, and and Durena and I are really good place now, but you know me, Tim, we've had these conversations like a one-on-one.
30:35
There's bumps with all these relationships, right?
30:38
And it's like you know, Durena and I did couples therapy for a bit, especially when you introduce kids into the equation.
30:44
My god, that changes everything.
30:47
And so, it's it's like this is this is the first time I read a book where I was like, this this is speaking to me and working.
30:53
So, wanted to throw it out there. That's great. That's a big deal.
30:57
You know, I I have considered men's groups a number of times.
31:01
I think I probably have on one hand like an unfair judgmental I've seen this before.
31:10
So, it's not totally unfair.
31:10
Like some men's groups like, all right, we're going to go in the woods and like you know, wear furs and bang on drums and like yell and scream.
31:16
And I'm like, uh not sure that's the the medicine I need right now.
31:21
And then, you know, I've had some misgivings at different points, but the the kind of meta-commentary that I would I would make, and this has been a conversation and it's a conversations I've had actually with quite a few women because I've just observed that like women I think are in general, again, I'm painting with a broad brush, but better at kind of social cohesion and gathering and that type of communal intimacy.
31:59
And there there are very few places, you know, outside of like a sports team or the bar or fill in the blank option C, where men have those communal experiences.
32:14
But if you look back at our just history, right?
32:20
If we look back hundreds of years, thousands of years, that wasn't an inbuilt feature of different communities.
32:28
And I think that that society at large ends up in a very precarious uh volatile situation when men, especially younger men, don't have that, right?
32:44
It's like, okay, if you have somebody who is feeling alienated, who is pumped full of hormones, like let's just say like kind of 16 to like 22, right?
32:57
With no sense of social belonging and a lot of kind of physiologically driven or at least informed aggression, like that is a significant societal problem. Right. Yes.
33:12
And so, I've I've I've thought about that a lot.
33:15
I mean, I've I've Go ahead.
33:18
The other thing I too I'll add on top of that is, you know, traditionally when you think about men getting together and shooting the [ __ ] you know, it's it is that bar setting, is that sports game, it whatever it may be, and it's very high level, right?
33:29
Like at that point, you're just like, ah, how things like, ah, you know, life's doing this, blah blah blah.
33:34
You don't have the permission really.
33:36
Like in in my group, I was like, my mom had her cancer return.
33:39
Like I'm going to miss her when she's gone because I'm her little boy.
33:45
And like I will miss the feeling of my head on her shoulder.
33:49
And like stuff that I'm just as like so deep and intimate to me because I love her so deeply. Yeah.
33:53
And it's like you don't get that over a beer necessarily to be able to go and to see other men around the table doing the same thing because we all at that point have set the ground rules, it's a safe space, and we can we can just really really let it out. And lots of tears come.
34:11
And one of the things Terry always says that's really interesting during it, people will start to cry, men will start to cry, and the tears will start to cry, and he goes, what do those tears say?
34:21
What do those What do those tears say right now?
34:23
And it's like it's like, give me more. Give me a more.
34:24
Open that door a little bit further than you're comfortable opening up.
34:28
Like you Yeah, I triggered something. Here come the tears. But unpack that further.
34:31
And then it just goes from there, and it's deeper and deeper layers. And it's release, man.
34:39
I mean, you know how this is.
34:40
Psychedelics help with this a lot.
34:40
You know, I the number when I did my high-dose mushroom experience and I was sobbing after, you know, cuz my father had passed away, it was like it gave me that permission to let that stuff go. Yeah.
34:51
And it's it's a very special thing when when you can do it because it's it's so healthy.
34:57
Yeah, I I'd love to actually ask you cuz you can probably correct or at least inform my initial impression.
35:06
So, I I listened to that episode on Peter's podcast.
35:08
Or I listened to the first half, so maybe I didn't give it enough time.
35:13
But I listened to the first half.
35:15
And other people I know have listened to that episode and immediately bought a bunch of books.
35:22
So, I may be peculiar in this way, but I listened to the first half, and there he's he seemed My impression was that Terry had a real axe to grind maybe on masculine strength, if this makes any sense, right?
35:39
So, he talked a lot about like toxic masculinity. Okay, fine.
35:43
Talked about sort of the counterparts to that, and it seems like he didn't grow up with, say, a kind of healthy interaction with exemplars of male strength, right?
35:55
Didn't seem to have the like the sports background.
35:56
Like he mentions his dad wanted him to be this like jocular athletic kid, and he wasn't that.
36:02
But I came away feeling that he had maybe very partial view of masculine strength.
36:12
And I think it's I do feel like it is a mistake, and it's also kind of conformist groupthink to automatically like excise male strength from like the topics that we can discuss as important.
36:24
I do think there's a place for that.
36:28
So, I'd be I'd just be curious to hear your thoughts because my impression in listening to the first half, I was like, oh, wow, this guy's like raw raw kind of feminine energy, the future is feminine.
36:38
That's fine, but to the if it's to the exclusion of trying to cultivate strength in men, even if that does look on some level traditional, even cross-culturally.
36:50
I mean, we see certain sort of typified behaviors.
36:51
Not saying they're all good.
36:53
Like all things in excess can become sort of the opposite of what we're aiming for.
36:59
How would you speak to that?
36:59
Because that was that turned me off, and it probably says more about me than about Terry.
37:07
You know, it's actually it's it's a funny you should mention that because when I listened to that episode, I immediately thought I don't want to go any further here.
37:16
It wasn't necessarily for me either, but I trust Peter, right?
37:21
And and I know that Peter I know that Peter's a very masculine dude. Yeah.
37:26
I mean, I watched videos of him shooting his bow out of his house like into the backyard from the center of his house.
37:32
I'm like, who shoots bows in their house into the backyard?
37:34
Like he's just he's crazy.
37:36
Like So, Peter is as masculine as they come, and I, you know, I I listened to that episode, and I thought I think we it was we unfairly got a very small slice of of what that he is Terry's all about.
37:48
And and when I listened to this book, I was like, oh, thank thank god in some sense.
37:54
Like I'm I'm so I'm glad it's it's much more it was a little one-sided there. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I agree. Got it.
37:58
All right, that's helpful.
38:00
I felt the same thing you did, dude.
38:02
I absolutely felt the same thing you did.
38:03
I was like, okay, is this like I I'm I'm not going to say what I was going to say, but yeah, I just I was worried.
38:08
Yeah, and you know, I I I I think also, you know, for those people who are interested, you can you can kind of look at Mark Andreessen's commentary on the the current thing, right?
38:16
He has a lot of thoughts on like the current thing in quotation marks, and I don't want to speak for for Mark, but the you know, the I I used to start every presentation I did with a quote from Mark Twain, and in this case, I do think it's actually verified.
38:34
I know it's like Mark Twain, Abraham Lincoln, and like, you know, Gandhi Gandhi and Groucho Marx get like 90% of all quotes on the internet, but uh or Mae West, but the the quote was, and I think I'm getting this right, you know, whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it's time to pause and reflect.
38:53
And just to identify like how much of what I'm actually not just saying, but believing are conclusions I've come to from like first principles, or actually following some kind of logical process, or from direct experience.
39:07
And how much of it is just conditioning.
39:10
How much of it is a subconscious or conscious fear response because I see people, you know, having gasoline poured on them and being lit on fire on the internet, metaphorically speaking, whenever they voice the opposite.
39:24
And I I I think it's very very important to pay attention to that.
39:30
Not just with respect to, you know, where we segue from with with Terry, but it's like whenever you're like whenever you're too in line with kind of what the majority are saying.
39:43
Like it might be true, but very often we're absorbing beliefs or perspectives or positions that we really aren't we haven't earned if that makes sense.
39:55
Like we haven't earned those positions.
39:57
I mean the same goes true for food.
39:58
Like you're like oh [ __ ] I'm eating McDonald's everyone else is eating McDonald's maybe this isn't the best thing for my He said so.
40:07
Yeah that's certainly one way to Yeah that would be that would be one example.
40:12
Uh so speaking of of of herd behavior um this I'll I'll I'll go the other direction.
40:18
Should I talk about my first ever NFT? Oh dude I'm so excited. You've you've jumped in.
40:25
Yeah I jumped in and you know I I I hesitated partially because as as you know since you're responsible for sort of pulling my attention.
40:36
Yeah I've been tracking this stuff for a while right?
40:38
And and thankfully you got me off my ass cuz you're like hey I'm going to be doing this thing. Don't tell anybody.
40:44
Now we can talk about it.
40:44
It's going to be called Grails and do you want to be part of it?
40:49
And do you want to explain just very briefly what Grails was Yeah.
40:55
what it is and then I can hop into it. Yeah absolutely.
40:58
And and for those that are listening that have no interest in NFTs or read the headlines out there rest assured that I can tell you that I too being so deep in NFTs believe that there's a lot of hype in the sector.
41:09
Like there's a lot of anyone armed with Photoshop right now can publish an NFT to the blockchain and that means that there's going to be a lot to kind of like sort through and sift through to find the gems.
41:21
And I but as an underlying fundamental technology it is a sound one.
41:26
And that there's proven scarcity there's durability of the asset meaning it doesn't degrade with time. You can transfer it.
41:33
I mean there's a there's a bunch of great things about it that it will be around forever. I have no doubt.
41:38
no doubt. Now that said you know there was a lot of hype going on into the world of NFTs here and there still is six or so months ago and I thought to myself like let's create an NFT project and call it Grails and the reason it was
41:54
called Grails it was Indiana Jones and you know the Holy Grail where he has to choose that cup you know that very very famous episode they're all choose wisely and if you choose the wrong one you like you turn into shriveled up and died right? So the thinking there was that so much
42:06
So the thinking there was that so much of attention at that time was on flipping NFTs.
42:11
Oh I'm going to grab this one I'm going to buy for five grand sell for a hundred you know.
42:16
Also I'm just going to interject for a second.
42:17
Also some people refer to what they might consider like the blue chip NFTs as grail NFTs.
42:21
There's also that use of the word. Yeah. Continue. That's right.
42:26
Yeah so the thinking there was okay let's let's put the emphasis back on the art and let allow people to look and consider each individual piece and then they have to make a decision.
42:38
So 20 artists 20 anonymous artists all up on the site as a member of my little group called the Proof Collective you got to choose one.
42:47
So you could go in there and just pick one that you wanted and then we would do the grand reveal.
42:53
And so afterwards we would reveal who the artists were 100% of the sale of the NFT and the royalties went directly to the artist so I did not profit at all.
43:03
And you were kind enough to say I'm going to be one of those artists that people have to guess if it's me or not. Yeah.
43:08
So there are 20 basically imagine you go to a website there are 20 thumbnails of different types of artwork.
43:18
Most if not all artists who are established did something that was sort of non-identifiable right?
43:28
They did something a lot of them did something completely different stylistically so that you wouldn't know it was them.
43:34
And then people were guessing right?
43:37
So there's a lot of speculation in various discords and so on about who might be the artist behind which piece.
43:46
And when you initially offered it to me and I'll I'll skip to the punchline real quick.
43:50
Like if people want to see this what the output was they can go to tim.
43:54
blog/nft and I'll just forward to a page on the OpenSea where you can see what this looks like.
43:59
But I bounced around a whole bunch of ideas and then I realized wait a second about a year ago a bit over a year ago I wrote a short story and I've never published fiction anywhere.
44:12
So I've never had a fiction blog post that I can remember.
44:16
I've never published any fiction in book form.
44:21
I've never had a magazine article that was fiction.
44:24
And I I I decided to take that which was about let's say 1400 words and the name of the piece is How to Start a War.
44:36
I'll come back to why it's called that because this was written keep in mind more than a year ago so it's nothing to do with the current conflict but How to Start a War it's 1400 or so words and decided to make that the background of this piece and then to layer images on top of it.
44:49
So ended up thinking on my own and then along with this designer Lisa Quine about how to create something that would actually make a nice say poster in a frame on a wall or a print.
45:03
And I wanted it I wanted to I needed some parameters.
45:05
I needed some constraints.
45:07
I was like okay let me not like blue sky this totally.
45:11
It has to look decent on a wall if someone puts this up on a wall. Mhm.
45:14
And the it's called How to Start a War because it is based on a real experience I had which I'll let people read the piece who want to read the piece.
45:25
So the only place you can find this first published fiction piece by me is as this NFT.
45:29
That's the only place you can find it.
45:32
And it's an easy read but I the way it starts is with someone handing me a business card and saying if you want to start a war call me.
45:42
And then it like the whole thing goes down a pretty deep rabbit hole and most of it is a composite but true to life which made it pretty easy to write. And that's it.
45:58
I mean that's how it started and it's been really a fun experience for me.
46:02
So thank you Kevin for getting me off my ass.
46:06
Um all the proceeds from this NFT go to my foundation so they'll end up funding uh scientific research and other initiatives related to primarily mental health possibly uh longevity and life extension or health span extension but predominantly mental health and uh I feel really good about it.
46:25
So it's been a it's been a fun little experiment and a chance to also kind of understand how some of the plumbing works. You know what I mean?
46:33
It's like if you want to Yeah.
46:34
like there's a point you can only read so many books about like playing soccer and then you got to get out there and actually kick a ball around right?
46:39
You're like you're not Yeah.
46:40
really have a feel for it until you start screwing around with the actual mechanics and plumbing and having to do things.
46:46
And you've had some good success man.
46:48
One sold for 15 ETH which is at the current prices is around 50k.
46:53
You know you've had a bunch of good secondary sales. Yeah.
46:55
People were pretty pumped.
46:57
Yeah and it was fun to also have the reveal right? Yeah.
47:01
So it So I think a lot of people minted and you know ultimately I I hope that there will be some durable value because it's not only my first NFT but it's my first published fiction piece.
47:12
So you kind of get a two for one. So we'll see.
47:16
Let me ask you a question.
47:18
And this is this is meant to be cut out if you don't like it.
47:22
No but a lot of people are actually adding utility to their NFTs meaning that like if you own this original Tim Ferriss piece something you do in the future like let's say you do another NFT drop you get some extra special rights or maybe they come to one of your live shows they get to do a meet and greet like have you had any thoughts around like maybe offering some perks to people that own and hold your NFT? Yeah I have.
47:47
I have thought about this.
47:47
You're not going to like my answer though.
47:48
And I don't want to do it. Yeah yeah.
47:52
Well this leads me to a question for you actually.
47:55
I decided I want to under promise and over deliver or at least not under deliver.
48:01
So as it stands right now Under promise and never deliver? Or just never promise.
48:07
Just never promise and never deliver.
48:09
Never promise and therefore you don't have to deliver.
48:12
I wanted it to have to the extent that it can.
48:15
Again I'm this is not investment advice.
48:17
All this stuff could go to zero who the [ __ ] knows.
48:20
But I wanted there to be intrinsic value as a first. Right?
48:26
And there is I think to the extent that there can be.
48:31
I did not want to make any additional promises and uh you know I asked you a while back and I'd love to talk about it on the show if you're open to it.
48:38
I have a friend I'm not going to mention the name but this friend has started different projects in Web3 NFTs and has made these promises that are kind of ongoing promises right?
48:56
And then the value of whatever he has created is tied to the ongoing delivery of more and more things.
49:03
And it's ended up being a huge stressor for him because he feels like A I have to do this forever.
49:12
B I can't figure out how to extricate myself.
49:14
B if I don't do that then when the music stops like the last people left holding these NFTs will just lose all their money. Right.
49:24
Uh so he has tremendous guilt also and stress around that.
49:26
So I I'd love to just hear how you think about this and maybe common mistakes that you see people make because it does seem like more and more promises are being made, right?
49:41
And so when you launch a project now, and again, this comes back to the Mark Twain thing, right?
49:45
Like whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it's time to pause and reflect.
49:49
So, I but I've talked to yet different friends who are like, "Hey man, if you launch a project now, like it's table stakes, you have to do this, this, this, this, this, this, private community, this, events, access, Q&As, da da da da."
50:03
And I'm like, "Well, hold on a second.
50:05
Like I'm not convinced everybody can or will deliver those things."
50:11
And if the table stakes just keep getting larger and larger and larger, like that is not ultimately scalable indefinitely, right?
50:18
Things are going to break.
50:19
People are going to lose money. Yeah.
50:22
How do you think about this kind of stuff?
50:25
What you're describing is what's becoming a pretty normal thing in the NFT world where it's it's called a utility NFT where it's not just about the artwork, you know, so many people have heard the name of Beeple or any other, you know, the bigger XCOPY, the bigger NFT artists.
50:37
And like that's pretty straightforward.
50:39
It's a JPEG, it looks great, you collect it, you hang it on your wall, done deal, you're never getting anything else, but it is a piece of art, right?
50:45
So, the utility NFT world is one where when you do buy the NFT, it comes with additional unlocks and those can be both online, offline, they could be things like with the Bored Apes when they had their token that they launched you so you got some ape token that came along with it.
51:02
They had some liquidity to it.
51:03
It could be all a slew of different things.
51:06
So, it is a slippery slope and it is something I would certainly buyer beware for sure unless they are taking it serious enough to build a real team around it and considering it a business.
51:18
Like what we do at Proof with the Proof Collective uh membership is it's very much a business for us.
51:24
Like it's a corporation, we have employees, we have payroll, we have all of that.
51:27
And it is a new type of of media company that we're building from the ground up.
51:31
So, I don't see it as something I could imagine when it's put on the shoulders of an individual.
51:36
Like if it was just you doing it at a Tim NFT where you have to manage a Discord and do meetups and all of that, like that sounds horrible, right? Yeah. Yeah.
51:46
But but it's And the other thing too is you do have to think about end of life for these particular utility NFTs.
51:53
So, I think the ones that you're right in that you can imagine a world where if you have a utility NFT and it ends at the three years, you know, what happens to the price at two years and six months?
52:04
Like what do people start bailing on it and who's the buyer and if there was any buyers at all, right?
52:08
Like it just plummets in value and people lose all this money.
52:12
So, our solution and what I came up with it with the Proof Collective and again, this is like with Tim's NFT, I'm not telling you to go buy this.
52:21
First of all, they're they're outrageous right now.
52:23
So, the thousand memberships, it's um the current price is $300,000 for a membership. That's amazing.
52:28
But we set a three-year limit on this actual on the benefits, right?
52:33
So, you get benefits We're four months into a three-year membership.
52:36
So, what happens at year two?
52:38
Like what it would to this insanely like, you know, crazy asset.
52:41
So, we figured out that there's two things that happen and for us, one, we're working with well, we will be working with a very well-known NFT artist to convert and swap out the artwork from a membership card into a real piece of art.
52:59
So, at a thousand, you can do that.
53:01
You can make them scarce and rare and you can make them actually individually collectible and we're going to have to pay this artist because the one that I'm thinking at that we're talking to, it's going to be a very expensive like million-dollar plus kind of check to to write to go and have this artist do something really unique.
53:17
But then when it expires and that swap happens at the last day, you're like, "Okay, I have value here cuz this is a real real art NFT, right?"
53:25
And then of course, at the very end, you do things like there's a season two, maybe they get a half discount off into the next season or whatever it may be.
53:34
So, there's there's ways to mitigate some of that.
53:37
There's no perfect solution, but I think that is the best that I've come up with to date is is really making it something that can stand on its own even when membership goes away Yeah. The benefits go away.
53:47
I think it's super smart.
53:49
I when you described that to me, it was the first time I had heard of that type of kind of time-bound conversion event. Super clever, right?
54:02
It's it it's it's very clever and it I think it highlights also how as you said, if you're going to participate in anything that has a value predicated on future deliverables and roadmaps, like make sure that you do the diligence to evaluate the team behind it. Yes. 100%.
54:23
Like really make sure you do that because holy speculation, Batman.
54:30
Like there's a lot of action in the space and you need to Yeah.
54:32
If you don't have a good way to assess teams or if you don't have an approach to that, then don't do it.
54:39
A lot of people talk about something called FUD and they don't like it.
54:43
It's this fear, uncertainty, and doubt.
54:44
And in the NFT world, they'll be like, "Don't spread FUD. Don't spread FUD."
54:48
But I I'm actually of the opposite end of the spectrum in that I believe FUD is actually a good thing.
54:52
Like we need to have fear, uncertainty, and doubt in each of these projects and properly evaluate them. Like Yeah.
54:59
there's there's there's multiple fears when it comes to NFTs raising money.
55:01
If there's a fear around the use of proceeds, what what are they going to do?
55:05
Are they going to disappear after they receive the money?
55:06
There's fears around execution risk.
55:08
Are they going to actually deliver on their promises?
55:12
There's market fears like crypto is very lumpy.
55:14
Does this drop in value by half?
55:16
Like you need to really evaluate these things and make sure there's a credible team behind them before you go into them. Yeah.
55:21
And also, like pointing out risks is not FUD. No.
55:27
So, so FUD just to just to just to use this in a in a context where I have exposure to it.
55:35
So, fear, uncertainty, and doubt usually when I've run into it in tech, right?
55:40
So, my first job out of college was selling storage area networks, fiber channel, in competition against Network Appliance and EMC and so on.
55:49
And the bigger companies would use fear, uncertainty, and doubt, but it wasn't always based on fact, right?
55:54
They would just if some if we were close to winning an account, they would say, "Well, hey, they're a startup.
56:02
Yes, they have funding, but how long do you think they're going to be around? You just don't know."
56:06
Like they might be around in five years, but they might be out of business.
56:09
What happens to your service contract?
56:10
Who manages the upkeep if you have issues with the firmware?
56:13
What's going to happen when you need to swap it out if they run out of funding, right?
56:18
So, that type of kind of intimidation through uncertainty is is kind of one type of FUD, but if if we are off a certain coastline in South Africa and there are seals in the water and it's full of great white sharks and I'm like, "Maybe you don't want to go in there because there are a lot of great white sharks."
56:41
If your response is, "Stop selling me FUD, man.
56:43
Everything's going to be okay."
56:47
then you might just have your arms bitten off. Right.
56:49
Like there's actually like a factual Yeah, and you're going to bleed out at that point. Yeah.
56:52
Oh, yeah, you're going to bleed out.
56:53
It's it's not a good not a good situation.
56:55
Very hard to swim with no arms.
56:58
So, so I will say that not to not to get all I'm surprised I'm so amped up.
57:04
I haven't had that much caffeine today.
57:05
I'm feeling feeling pretty good.
57:08
You need to be very cautious to quote Warren Buffett cuz you can't really lose quoting Warren Buffett, so why not?
57:14
Don't ask a barber if you need a haircut, right?
57:15
So, like if someone has a vested interest in something Right.
57:20
and they're telling you everything's going to be all right because their wallet is going to take a hit if it doesn't go up into the right, they are not an unbiased source of information, right?
57:32
And and you know, a lot of what's happening in the NFT world is to just to mention it real briefly.
57:35
Like there was this story I heard a long time ago.
57:36
It was actually an anecdote that this guy told. It's a pretty shady cat.
57:42
This guy who was involved in infomercials and I happen to be like sitting around a table and he was telling the story to someone else.
57:48
This was way back in like early 2000s and he was telling it like this this grand lesson that he was like bestowing upon his children and I was like, "Oh wow, this guy's really unethical."
57:59
And he told this long story about this guy who who caught this amazing tuna fish in a can and he sold it and then it sold for $10 and then it sold for $100 and then like sold for a thousand and then 10,000 and then like 100,000 and then one day somebody who owned this like $100,000 can of tuna fish opened it and it was totally rotten.
58:18
And so he reached out to the person who sold it to him and was like, "Hey, you sold me this tuna fish, it's totally rotten."
58:24
And the guy said, "That tuna fish isn't for eating.
58:26
That tuna fish is for selling." Yeah.
58:31
but I think there's a lot of that going on, right?
58:33
It's like it's like the greater fool theory of investing.
58:34
It's like, "All right, well, as long as I can find someone who does even less diligence than I did, it'll all work out." Yeah.
58:41
And yeah, you you you got to be careful.
58:45
Well, especially the the other thing too and and something I'm trying to figure out cuz I I am building in the space is there are a lot of projects that are coming out and they're serving very large audiences.
58:55
Like the reason why the Proof Collective stuff what we only did a thousand is because I don't think I could handle more than a thousand people with this type of stuff that we want to do on that side.
59:05
And you know, not to interrupt, but I will again cuz apparently that's my thing today.
59:09
And you have a company building experience, right?
59:15
But managing expectations and inbound and requests and complaints from 10,000 people, that is a lot to actually handle well. Yeah. Right.
59:25
Yeah. Right. And so that's kind of like we have another project that's coming out that is 10,000 people big, but the the way that we're we're doing it is is completely different than what's been done today because what basically what
59:38
happens is is when you promise 10,000 people the world and you have a budget of X and you divide up that budget and you send them you make do on your you're good on your promise and you send them something in the mail, they get like an engraved pin and like a hat, right? Like there's not
59:52
Like there's not a whole lot of budget to go around all these people.
59:55
So, the way that we we treat things is we actually in this next project we kind of do it almost like the airline miles way that you get different status based on your engagement with the community, how long you hold the NFT for so that we can put out different tiers based on how you actually have committed to the community.
1:00:18
We call it it's it's a long story, but it's the project is called Moonbirds and it's called nesting, but you actually lock up your asset and then and and you unlock additional benefits as time goes on.
1:00:27
So, it's it's a way to divide and conquer versus trying to promise these massive benefits to the entire world if that makes sense.
1:00:35
So, do the people who hold Moonbirds commit to I don't want to say it I mean it's not a vesting schedule like nesting period in advance.
1:00:46
Is that something they commit to?
1:00:48
How do or is it just however long they hold it and each day they can decide if they want to buy or sell?
1:00:52
Or I guess sell in this case.
1:00:54
Yeah, when they lock it up at the contract level it prevents it from being sold. I see.
1:00:58
Okay, so they do decide up front.
1:00:58
Yeah, but they can they can back out in 2 seconds at any time they want.
1:01:02
It just stops their continuous streak and and their their status level basically. Okay, got it. That's interesting.
1:01:08
Yeah, but then it allows me to carve it out cuz like if you think about like let's just say you did a NFT to 10,000 of your fans like you could say, "Okay, well, the people that have actually been with me for let's just say you did this years ago."
1:01:19
You could say the people that were with me for the last 3 years and have stuck with me and been a members for that long, I will do that private dinner with you cuz it's going to be 25 or something. You know what I mean?
1:01:28
It's like it allows you to like the segment things.
1:01:31
I have this private Facebook group for people who supported my subscription podcast kind of alternative business model years ago, right?
1:01:40
And that's still around and it's a much It's a much smaller group of people, right?
1:01:48
So, I could see possibly doing something along those lines.
1:01:52
I don't want to mention the name, but I think you will agree that the the potential name that I've been coming up with ideas for for like last 2 years for this NFT project is is pretty phenomenal.
1:02:04
I think you'll you'll agree.
1:02:06
You have a top five PFP name in your in in your repertoire there.
1:02:09
Like Tim has this idea for a big NFT drop that is is powerful.
1:02:17
It would be very hard for people not to write about it and I expect at least 70% of the internet would go, "Oh my. Oh my.
1:02:25
How how how could how could he? How could he?"
1:02:26
I'd give you a 10% chance of being canceled with that one going out.
1:02:33
It's it's it's a a Tim after two glasses of wine NFT project.
1:02:37
like four or five glasses of wine.
1:02:37
It's Tim after four or five glasses of wine and I there is part of me that is like, "Do I want this to be the most dominant feature of my Wikipedia page?" I Maybe not. Maybe not. Right.
1:02:51
my current activities, I don't know. I don't know.
1:02:53
I do think it would be uh ultimately hilarious.
1:02:55
It would be largely absurdity focused.
1:03:01
So, we'll we'll see if that ever happens.
1:03:04
I don't know if it'll ever happen.
1:03:05
I want to see I'm actually super Why not though, man? It's like Yeah, why not?
1:03:09
You have nothing to Well, you do have a lot to lose.
1:03:13
If I cancel you it Well, I mean the you know, the nice part is I mean what what would I mean what would canceling look like for an NFT project that upsets some people?
1:03:22
Like what does that what does that really look like, right?
1:03:25
I guess you'd have Yeah, for you it's like lots of noise stop listening to your podcast or something.
1:03:29
Yeah, like I mean really.
1:03:31
Like if if you've been listening to the podcast long enough or or listening to these random shows long enough, right?
1:03:37
If if you're still listening, like we've had ample opportunity to talk about any number of things that might get to you know, cause somebody to get their knickers knickers in a twist.
1:03:47
Yeah, I mean you literally talked about anal tobacco Yeah, we already talked about anal administration of tobacco.
1:03:51
We've talked about you know, I took that like 30-day uh no What was it?
1:03:56
It was like no booze, no masturbating experiment with the audience and talked about like my you know, "Hey, before you before you go on this porn fast, here's some recommendations."
1:04:06
Like I mean like this isn't exactly family programming. So, Right.
1:04:11
I feel Well, it depends on your family, I guess. I don't know.
1:04:17
Oh god, I'm definitely putting tuna helper in the name of this episode.
1:04:18
Um Now, I know you I mean you're you have you have some pretty cool stuff coming up.
1:04:29
I'm very cool stuff coming up and you've been working so hard.
1:04:32
I mean I think it's just hilarious that like the less you need to work, the harder you seem to work. Have you observed this?
1:04:42
I mean honestly, it's funny.
1:04:43
Have you ever met Bill Harlan or no?
1:04:47
Uh Do you know do you know him at all?
1:04:49
Harlan Estate, the wines?
1:04:49
Are we talking about I know Will.
1:04:51
Yeah, that's why I was getting confused. met his dad, Bill. Yeah.
1:04:53
I may have met Bill at I can never pronounce this word.
1:04:58
It's too fancy for me coming from Long Island. Is it Promontory? Promontory, yeah. Promontory.
1:05:03
Jesus, I can never say that word. Yeah, the winery.
1:05:07
Yeah, I may have met Bill when we did a site visit ages ago.
1:05:13
I may have, but let's just assume not for the purposes of this conversation.
1:05:17
So, for people that don't know, Harlan Estate is one of the most premier culty wines in Napa Valley.
1:05:22
It's insanely sought after, multi-year waitlist just to get access to an allocation.
1:05:26
It's like the Moonbirds of wine basically.
1:05:27
Right, the Moonbirds like the NFT Yeah, the high-end wine exactly. Very very hard to get.
1:05:34
So, I've been very lucky to be on that board and it's given me exposure to just a world that I would normally never have any insight into and they have properties too as well like Meadowood and the restaurant Meadowood which is a three Michelin star restaurant.
1:05:47
So, they have a bunch of different things that I always learn about at these board meetings, learn from and hopefully help on the tech side a little bit in in helping them form their thinking around new ways to to embrace current tech.
1:06:00
So, one of the things that he said to me at a dinner just like a week ago we were at this dinner and and Bill's in his 80s now and we're talking about NFTs and how they're applicable to potentially to the wine world in some really interesting ways there which I believe will absolutely happen.
1:06:19
And he goes he goes he's and I'm paraphrasing, but he's like he's like, "Kevin, I get it."
1:06:24
He goes, "When you see these markets and and you see it before anyone else."
1:06:30
He goes, "You push in really hard and and you get the outsized rewards."
1:06:33
And for him, that was real estate in Napa Valley, you know, 30 years ago.
1:06:37
That was and he goes, "Then you sit around and you wait until you see the next one and it might be a decade or longer until you see this next big moment when it's time to push your chips in again."
1:06:53
And for me, I have been sitting around waiting since Web 2, 2004 and granted I was really active in Web 2 and there was mobile and there was a few other amazing things that happened. VR was stupid.
1:07:04
But then um You are really doubling down on the VR stupid thing, huh?
1:07:09
It'll it'll eventually get to the right size and and price that people will like it.
1:07:13
But but I think I I think that's I had a big fight with one of your your other guests, Adam Gazali.
1:07:17
He told me that VR was going to take off like 5 years ago and I we bet a bottle of Hibiki 30 when it was a lot less expensive and he still hasn't sent me the bottle Hibiki 30.
1:07:27
So, Oh, it's just going to keep getting more expensive anyway.
1:07:30
Oh yeah, it's getting more expensive.
1:07:31
It's like 5x the price since then.
1:07:33
So, Adam, cough it up, man.
1:07:36
So, long story short is is I Well, I'll give you a great example.
1:07:38
I was working on on the Moonbirds project till midnight last night and I woke up naturally and this is weird for me at 6:00 a. m.
1:07:45
, got out of bed and started working again.
1:07:48
Because there is this excitement, there's this blue ocean, there is so much that can be done in this space that it it's like Tim, it's like when you came to the NFT conference with me and we were sharing a a room and you were sleeping on the couch which was awesome. It was hilarious.
1:08:00
You wanted to get in the bed.
1:08:02
I would not let you in the bed. That's a true story. I was [ __ ] freezing.
1:08:04
It got to just just a side note.
1:08:06
So, it was so [ __ ] cold. This is in Marfa, Texas.
1:08:10
It got down to like 40° at night and I'm sleeping on the couch with a towel on top of me.
1:08:15
It doesn't even cover like the lower half of my legs.
1:08:19
Shivering dying and I'm like, "Kevin, are you sure there aren't any blankets?" He's like, "No, man. No extra blankets."
1:08:23
And then the last day, I'm like, "What's that huge drawer on the other side of the bed?" Pull it out.
1:08:29
Comforters galore everywhere. Yeah, exactly. So, sorry about that.
1:08:35
But um So, anyway, when we were there, you and I were both feeling it.
1:08:38
We're getting up early talking about NFTs and like and and it's not just about the hype cycle.
1:08:45
It's about this there's a new technology that is just taking shape and yes, it'll be many years before it's fully realized, but this is when you want to to start paying attention.
1:08:53
It's when there's the most risk, of course, but that's that's that early investors do embrace risk cuz that's where the most upside is, right?
1:09:01
So, that's what's exciting about it.
1:09:04
Yeah, I would also say, you know, just reinforce that.
1:09:06
I mean it you know, Marfa definitely had the feeling like, "Okay, we're on the beach in Northern California and this is kind of the first Burning Man."
1:09:13
I got they had that feeling or or South by Southwest like 2007.
1:09:19
Where interactive was just like the red-headed stepchild.
1:09:22
Sorry, trigger warning for red-headed stepchildren.
1:09:24
So, it's red-headed stepchild of Cancelled.
1:09:26
So, nobody cared, you know?
1:09:30
I It's like nobody cared about interactive and now it is just as not to make this like the Andreessen theme show, but like software eating the world, right?
1:09:38
Now Now, interactive is like the glue that holds everything together.
1:09:43
And I'm not saying that's going to be the case with NFTs necessarily, but you definitely had that and it's more for me of like a physiological feeling.
1:09:50
You're like, "Okay, we're in a really small group.
1:09:54
These There are a lot of very smart people here who have decided this is what they want to dedicate all their time to." Right?
1:10:00
So, if you agree with some investors who would take the position that like what the nerds do on the weekends now is what everybody will be doing in like 5 years or 10 years. Dixon said that, right? Dixon, maybe.
1:10:12
Yeah, and it's like, "Okay, I do think there's something to that." Right?
1:10:14
And there is just this There's like electric feeling which is is hard to put words to, but it is It's It's kind of a physiological response for me and I talked about this a little bit in the podcast with with Dixon and Naval, but that's definitely true for this.
1:10:34
And I would also say like it is risky to What's the right What are the kids the cool kids saying?
1:10:43
Ape into whale into a position? Ape into, yeah.
1:10:45
Yeah, if you just take like half your net worth and you're not sure how you're going to make your mortgage payment and you push all those chips into something that's hugely speculative, that's risky, but I don't view that as intelligent risk taking, right?
1:11:04
That is That's just foolish.
1:11:07
And has tremendous downside potential, but if I do think you can begin to like place little bets and think about mitigating downside, right? Absolutely.
1:11:18
Because if right now we're in a phase where there are opportunities for like 5x, 10x, 100x investments.
1:11:26
I know a lot of people have become spoiled over COVID where they're like started trading on like Robinhood and this that and the other thing and they're like, "Oh, if it's less than 1,000% a year, like I'm not interested.
1:11:37
I'm going to look for the next best thing."
1:11:38
And it's I think that's going to burn a lot of people, but you can then start to think about like actually studying some of these older investors and and learning about portfolio construction, right?
1:11:50
And really taking a like risk intelligent approach to playing only with chips you can afford to lose.
1:12:01
And I think you get smarter that way. Oh, absolutely.
1:12:03
Because if you go into it and you're like "High risk, high reward, baby."
1:12:07
And you use that as a smoke screen to cover up your complete lack of due diligence, to cover up the fact that you have no understanding of the technology, to cover up the fact that you didn't do any homework on the team behind X, Y, and Z that you saw trending on Twitter because you think that you're going to make a fast buck.
1:12:25
You're just going to lose your money.
1:12:26
Sooner or later, you will lose your money.
1:12:29
But I'm also seeing people who are really taking this as an opportunity to basically like go to grad school, right?
1:12:38
They're like, "Okay, I'm going to play with just enough."
1:12:39
And to everybody, I mean, I don't know if you agree with this or not, but from my perspective, you know, like I waited whatever it was, a year and a half after we started talking about NFTs to launch my first NFT. Why?
1:12:50
Because I don't think you need to rush.
1:12:53
I do not think you need to rush. Like it is so early. It is still so early.
1:12:59
If anything, it's now is the time to dabble and just have the foundational knowledge so that when you're ready to have an informed decision and push in and do something, you aren't starting from from zero, right?
1:13:11
So, you know, I oftentimes tell people they're like, "How do I get started in NFTs?"
1:13:15
And I'm like, "Okay, it's easy.
1:13:16
You You have to learn how to use MetaMask and you have to learn how to send an one ETH to that wallet or $200 worth of ETH to that wallet.
1:13:25
Like, you know, you have to learn how to safeguard your secret phrase."
1:13:28
Like there's some foundational knowledge that's going to be essential for this world and and now's the time to start.
1:13:34
Even if you don't want to spend anything on NFTs, now's the time to get that base knowledge down.
1:13:37
So, when you're ready, you can you can pull the trigger.
1:13:43
Uh I was just laughing because I went to this conference recently.
1:13:45
You know, I'm thinking about you and just as cutting as you are with all these things and so neck deep in everything and you know, able to look around corners and I was at this conference cuz you have you know, I haven't been to conferences in forever.
1:13:59
Uh with the exception of the Marfa thing, but that wasn't really a conference, right?
1:14:01
That was just like was tiny little thing, yeah.
1:14:03
hanging out and having barbecue and just bullshitting and talking about the the potential amazing future that we have ahead of us with respect to these technologies.
1:14:11
But I went to like a conference conference.
1:14:14
And uh I was kind of going to these sessions and going to these dinners and everybody was asking me You'll appreciate this.
1:14:22
This is going to sound weird to a lot of people listening, but the everyone had like their new big project.
1:14:27
Like, "Yeah, my new big project."
1:14:29
And then so they'd be like, "So."
1:14:30
They'd like look at my name badge and they'd be like, "Oh, Tim Ferriss, podcast.
1:14:34
Okay, you have a podcast.
1:14:35
What's your podcast about?"
1:14:35
And I'd be like, "Uh it's an interview podcast."
1:14:38
And they'd be like looking over my shoulder for like another finance person to talk to and they'd be like, "All right, this guy This guy's boring."
1:14:41
And then they'd be like And And they'd be like, "So, what's what's your what's your what's your new big project?
1:14:46
What's what's your gigantic new project you're focused on?"
1:14:49
And the best thing I could come up with, in part because I didn't really want to talk to these people, but it's kind of true, I was like Uh I'm mostly trying to figure out how to talk to animals right now. "What? What?"
1:15:00
And then And then they'd like they'd be like, "Oh, that's uh that's that's fascinating."
1:15:06
And then they'd like walk off with their little order and like glass of champers to find somebody else to like give a TED Talk to.
1:15:11
But Yeah, I feel like I'm kind of going the opposite direction.
1:15:17
Like I've become super fascinated and I have been fascinated by like animal tracking specifically.
1:15:23
So, leave putting aside like the animal communication piece, that's a whole separate the can of worms, but like tracking one of the oldest human skills imaginable.
1:15:34
I mean, it's also an animal skill, of course, but it's like, "Okay, who are the best trackers in the world?
1:15:40
Like if you need to track a given animal." Oh, that's so much fun. What a fun hobby.
1:15:44
Yeah, so I've become I've been reading book after book after book and you as one would expect, there's a lot of horse [ __ ] and a boatload of charlatans who claim to be like, "Oh, I was trained by whatever, a such and such scout from such and such tribe."
1:16:01
And you're like, "Okay, there's no way for me to possibly verify that." You know what I mean?
1:16:06
So, I have you know, it could just be ghost stories this person is telling me.
1:16:10
But there are still folks who are exceptionally good.
1:16:13
So, that's that's something I'm leaning into.
1:16:15
So, if anybody has any thoughts on that where you can actually verify these people know what they do, hit me up on Twitter @tferriss, t f e r r i s s.
1:16:21
Anything else you'd like to mention, Kevin, before we cut out cuz I know we're coming up on time?
1:16:27
Yeah, I mean, I guess the only thing is I'm @kevinrose if you want to follow my adventures on Twitter mostly around all things crypto and NFTs.
1:16:34
Moonbirds is our new launch that's coming out.
1:16:36
It's you most likely just going to have to find it in the secondary market cuz it's been an insanely oversubscribed.
1:16:40
But it should be a really fun utility NFT that you should check out. Yeah.
1:16:45
And uh Always good to see you, brother.
1:16:48
Yeah, I'll be along for the Moonbird ride.
1:16:50
So, uh I'm excited about that.
1:16:52
I really appreciate that you're always willing to be like the first monkey shot into space.
1:16:58
At least between the two of us with stuff like this so then I get to I get to have front row seats to all the lessons.
1:17:03
Get to watch as my capsule comes back down and and what's going to happen? Do the shoots deploy? Does it burn up? Yeah. Yeah, it's awesome.
1:17:08
So, that So, thank you for that.
1:17:11
"Cool, you made it into space.
1:17:11
Okay, let's let's see what the capsule does."
1:17:14
Yeah, let's see how the return goes.
1:17:15
Yeah, how the return goes, exactly.
1:17:15
I'm so excited for you, man.
1:17:17
I'll just say real quickly in passing and I've said this to you before, but it's so fun for me to see uh like a playing field and a sport and a set of technologies that is so perfectly suited to like all of the circles that overlap to form the Venn diagram that is Kevin Rose.
1:17:34
Like Like you said, it's like it's been a long time since I've seen you this excited about something where this is all you're doing.
1:17:42
I mean, I mean, yeah, of course you have family and you're a good dad and you're a good good husband.
1:17:45
You're doing all of that.
1:17:46
You're not neglecting everything else, but like you are on fire right now and it's so fun to watch.
1:17:53
It just makes me It makes me happy to see you so excited about something. Thank you. I appreciate that.
1:17:57
I'm I'm It feels so I'm telling you this is the way it's always been for me and I'm sure you can relate is when you find something that you really personally love, like you really It getting up at 6:00 doesn't matter cuz it doesn't feel like you're working at all, you know? Yeah.
1:18:10
Yeah, you have you have bigger batteries. They last longer. Exactly. Good for you, man.
1:18:14
Well, it's good to see you, brother.
1:18:15
And thanks for taking the time to jam.
1:18:17
Yeah, let's hang in person soon. Let's do it.
1:18:19
And uh folks, we'll have links to various resources and so on in the show notes as usual, tim. blog/podcast.
1:18:28
And until next time, thank you for tuning in. Okay, bye. Take care.