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I come from Olympic weightlifting, athletics.
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I focus always on progress, and that's what the athletes are about.
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When you think about physical therapists, chiropractors, we call them recoverers.
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So, helping us to recover.
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Return the person to where the person was before.
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With Jerzy, that's not the case for cerebral palsy people, because they are already there, and they cannot return anywhere.
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So, they have to progress the same way as athletes.
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>> Jerzy, nice to see you, as always. >> pleasure. >> Yeah, all right.
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I'm going to tell >> Good to be here.
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>> Yeah, I always love spending time with you, and I have wanted to have this conversation for, doing the math, more than 10 years, because you told me of this transformation that we're going to be discussing in detail a long time ago.
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And it blew my mind to the extent that, you may not remember this, I wanted to try to figure out a way to hire a long-form journalist to write an entire long-form magazine piece on this, and it turned out that a much better format is film.
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And certainly in this conversation we'll talk about it, but not to bury the lead.
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For people who don't have any context, Jerzy and I have known each other quite a long time, and Jerzy's appeared on the podcast before, alongside Naval Ravikant, who also has worked with Jerzy, and Jerzy's a four-time world weightlifting champion, co-founder of UCLA's weightlifting team, co-creator with his wife, Aniela, the lovely Aniela, of the Happy Body Program.
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There's a lot more to his story.
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We get into it in depth in the first conversation.
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This time around, we're going to talk about a very, very specific transformation that people might not associate with weightlifting when they envision lifting weights in the gym and that is just how far-reaching coaching transformation can be.
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And I'm going to read a definition first of cerebral palsy, CP.
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This is from the AI answer on Google, but you'll see some version of this in most places.
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So, cerebral palsy is a group of permanent disorders affecting movement, posture, and muscle tone caused by abnormal brain development or damage to the developing brain, usually before birth, sometimes it's during birth.
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It is the most common motor disability in children resulting in non-progressive limitations.
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I'm just highlighting a few words here.
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Permanent, non-progressive limitations, meaning the brain injury does not change over time on muscle coordination and balance.
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All right, now I'm going to compare that with a lead into the doc which I'm making available for free on YouTube, which is called Prisoner No More.
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We'll have more to say about that.
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It is quite short, easy to watch, about 30 minutes to my memory. Here's the description.
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What happens when a doctor's prognosis becomes a life sentence and one person refuses to serve it?
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it? Prisoner No More follows Tajin Park, and I recognize that is not probably the perfect pronunciation for Korean, but Tajin Park, a young man diagnosed with cerebral palsy, who dismantled every physical limitation medical science
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predicted for him through elite athletic training under Olympic strength coach Jerzy Gregorek and an uncompromising commitment to identity transformation, Tajin's story redefines what the human body and mind are capable of. And that's directed by Jeff Wolf and we
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And that's directed by Jeff Wolf and we will come back to that as well.
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But let's hop into an actual conversation here and begin with Jerzy, if you wouldn't mind, just some before and afters, right?
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And then we'll go into the entire chronology of it and everything else.
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But maybe we could just touch on a few like bench press, what he could do before to gym, and what he could do after.
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Math, language, where would you like to start?
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>> Uh, let's start from bench press, I guess. >> Okay.
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>> So, the first day I loaded the bar 15 lbs, and he couldn't lift.
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He couldn't take it off the rack.
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>> Right, he couldn't unrack it. >> Just only 15 lbs. >> Mhm.
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>> So, I have this wooden bar, Olympic wooden bar, that I used to coach children. >> Mhm. >> 4-year-olds, 5. >> Mhm.
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>> I remember my uh daughter was doing snatches when she was 3 years old. It's 3 lbs. >> Mhm.
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>> But I put the 3 lbs on, and he lifted it. >> Mhm. >> 3 lbs. And I thought, "Okay.
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He could lift three, so let's see if he can lift eight."
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So, I added 5 lbs, and he did. >> Mhm. >> I was surprised. It surprised me. >> Mhm. >> The difference.
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And then I loaded another five on, and it was 13, and he did. Came back to 15 lbs.
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He barely lift that, but he did. >> Mhm.
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>> So, that gave me the insight right away that he is going to progress fast.
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So, I asked for his father to come to the gym, and I told him, "You have to be here, and you have to watch every session with him.
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I guess something is going to happen here."
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I already got that feelings that something good is going to happen.
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>> So, so I I want to spoil the story.
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We're going to get into micro progressions and certainly the importance of the bench press which you identified really early on.
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What did he get to as his sort of maximum working weight in the bench press? >> He got to 170. >> At what body weight? >> I think around 140.
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So he passed his body weight.
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He became stronger than his father and his father couldn't believe.
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But as the father was watching it for years and he said at one point he said I'm really getting what's the micro progression is. It's amazing thing.
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So that was really something.
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>> So another layer to this story that makes it all the more amazing and inspirational and mind-boggling is that Tejan also is autistic, if I'm correct, right?
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So while you're helping him to build confidence and competence physically, you were also working on a lot of other things and I'm sure we'll get into many of them, but could you just tell us a bit more about his conversational ability before and after?
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>> But the father told me that he was the conversation only with Tejan was time to go to bed or time to eat.
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And there were some probably more because he could count to 1 to 10.
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And but he wouldn't know what is 3 minus 2.
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What I noticed that he needs to work on the math because I asked him to to do five squats and he did six or four, sometimes five.
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So I said Tejan I wanted five.
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And said that was five and it was six, right? So he was missing. Mhm.
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that gave me the idea that he needs to work on his math. >> Mhm.
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>> So, I started asking him simple questions. What is 3 + 2?
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3 + 5 and up to 10, he was okay. >> Mhm.
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>> But after 10, didn't know what is the 5 + 7. >> Mhm.
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>> The subtraction didn't know at all.
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So, that was the beginning of the math.
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When he came to English and any conversation, he couldn't have any conversation.
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So, the father after about probably a year, he said we had a first conversation.
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>> After a year of training?
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>> Yes, we actually talk about something. So, that was amazing. Yeah.
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>> How long did you train with Tijan? >> Almost 5 years. >> Okay.
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So, at the end of 5 years with math, where was he?
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>> Well, he's in community college. He passed 57 units. >> Mhm.
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>> So, he is waiting for another three units to finish 60 and go to San Jose State.
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So, you can you can imagine what his math is and English, he writes essays and >> So, let that sink in, people.
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It is so wild and you'll see this in the video, to not just converse about concrete objects, right?
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The mug in front of us or something to the left of us, the dog on the floor, but you had him memorize poetry so you could discuss things like emotional tone, metaphor, right?
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Getting into much more complicated terrain.
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And honestly, the more I learn about this and the more I revisit it because this is not the first time we've talked about this. >> Right.
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>> And I I just rewatched the documentary earlier today in which I did the voiceover for.
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And I got really emotional watching it to be honest.
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So, I want to talk about the how to because there's so many so many pieces to this.
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But maybe what we should talk about is why previous approaches hadn't worked, right?
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How are people with cerebral palsy generally treated? Right?
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By society, why do they have these deficiencies, right?
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The lazy explanation is well, they have these this brain damage or abnormal brain development and that's that, right? It's a sentence.
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>> And then Tijen had worked with physical therapists before meeting you.
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So, like why didn't he make progress?
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I mean, those are two different questions, but I'll let you start with maybe how you view the environment and society as implicated in the development for people with cerebral palsy.
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And this applies to many other places by the way.
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It's not limited to cerebral palsy.
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But for instance, we were talking about community college and Tijen when he decided to go back to school, which didn't start with college, of course.
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And there were a lot of pressures to put him into a special program. And you were like, no. No special program.
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Like he has to be around normal kids.
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So, I'm I'm leading into it a little bit, but would you like to say a bit more about that?
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>> I come from Olympic weightlifting, as you know. So, athletics.
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Uh focus always on progress and reaching records, breaking records.
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And that's what the athletes are about.
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But when you think about physical therapists, chiropractors, doctors, we call them really in weightlifting recoverers. >> Mhm.
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>> So, helping us to recover, acupuncture, massage, and all of this is when we do the training, we need recovery. >> Mhm.
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>> So, the recovery is that system that helps us to recover the body for the next day and do the next day something a little bit more than before. >> Mhm.
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>> And I create the progress.
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When physical therapist approach, let's say, uh somebody that is after surgery or has problems, the mission is to return the person to where the person was before. >> Mhm.
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>> And the same with doctors, make them healthy again. >> Mhm.
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>> But with Tajam, this is not the case because all cerebral palsy people, because they are already there. >> Mhm.
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>> And they cannot return anywhere. >> Right.
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>> So, they have to progress the same way as athletes. Forward. More.
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You know, either stronger, faster. What is 5 + 7? >> Mhm.
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>> Or write a line, memorize the poem.
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So, all of it and, you know, belief system that you took before that then triggers here too because he hated the son, the son. >> Mhm.
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>> And he hated police, and he hated mother.
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He had father, and and that came out during our process of coaching.
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So, that I had to address, too.
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So, all the philosophy was also the part of it.
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It was poetry, philosophy, there was math, and there was English.
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But, uh coming back to what you said about the whole community that works with cerebral palsy, I think that they the focus is not athletic focus.
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The focus is to comfort them.
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So, not really improve them. >> Mhm.
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>> Not to improve them so they are improving. >> Mhm.
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>> Just to comfort them so they have their safety life and they okay. >> Mhm.
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>> I guess that that's probably the difference here.
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>> And just to reiterate something for people who are listening, right?
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We're talking about in in some respects two things that will get intermingled as we talk, which does not mean that we're equating them, but you have on one hand sort of the mood affect and some of the communication challenges and other components of autism spectrum disorder.
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Then you have the motor challenges and much more, of course, related to cerebral palsy.
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So, we're talking we're talking about both.
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And let's revisit the prior physical therapist, right?
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Because I believe, based on some of the notes that you sent to me, that his approach was to put Tijan on a treadmill. Is that right?
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Or you just There was In other words, it was >> And he hated it.
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>> He threw him into a plan, but it wasn't a progression.
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I don't know if that's fair to say.
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I mean, maybe maybe there was minimal progression to it, but >> Yeah, maybe some progression of a treadmill, but a treadmill after a while creates exhaustion, >> Mhm.
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>> tiredness, and the brain actually becomes depleted >> Mhm.
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>> instead of getting the power, getting the strength, getting more energy.
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We're talking about a resting energy. >> Mhm.
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>> And when that resting energy can be improved, that resting energy can keep the person awake.
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He was very lethargic at the beginning.
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>> Yeah, he'd sleep in the car.
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He would sleep whenever he had a moment to sleep.
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>> never was awakening the car.
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And when he was in the room, he would usually sleep because he was not engaged with people. >> Mhm. >> So, he was sleeping.
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>> And so, the bench press seems like it was one of the kind of key components to increasing resting energy.
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>> Yes, bench press, uh squats. >> What type of squats? >> Back squats. >> Back squat.
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>> Back squat and then eventually the back squat was big challenge because he couldn't sit down. >> Mhm. >> He was very stiff.
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Because he was stiff, he would fall on daily basis.
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He was bruised all over the body. And he walk awkwardly. >> Mhm.
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>> Usually father hold his hand and when they were walking and he was just walking very very to the left, to the back, and then awkwardly.
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So, that created a challenge.
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So, the challenge for the squatting was that he was not able to squat down. He was able to bend. >> Right.
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Which is why his parents also took him to the bathroom >> was looking Yeah, he was looking for the box or the chair.
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You remember the boxes there. >> I do. Yeah.
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>> So, he was not able to set to sit on a 20-in box because he was bending forward and looking for the box.
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So, that was about, I guess, at the beginning about 20-in 23 in.
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When it came to 16 in, I noticed that he is nicely squatting down.
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And also was able to turn.
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At the beginning, he was not able to turn.
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So, when I noticed that, I told the dad, "He's ready to go to the restroom on his own and ready for the other things in the restroom."
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So, and that was the beginning of the first really independence >> Mhm. >> for Tejan.
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He was able to dress himself.
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The other thing was to tie the shoelaces. >> Mhm.
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>> So, at a certain point, I saw that he has this shoes and uh his shoelaces were untied.
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And the father run to tie his shoes, right? I said, "No, no, no. You can do that." And I said, "Okay."
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So, father sat uh outside of near our lunches in the house.
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And so, he bent and he tried to tie.
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And the father was looking, piercing, you know? I said, "Relax. Relax. He's going to be okay."
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And I created this atmosphere facilitated for Tejan, so he could relax. >> Mhm.
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>> And he could actually make it happen.
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It was about 20 minutes before he actually made it, but it was a torture for the father. >> Mhm.
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>> So, I started really seeing how the parents are with him.
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That I had to teach the father, the mother to be patient, to wait until he does something, not to do for him.
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So, that was also element that was needed to be fixed.
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>> It's also, and looking at it through very sympathetic lens, I can understand how all three of them have been struggling and working hard to do the best they can over How old was Tejan when you when you met him? >> 25. >> 25. >> They weigh in tons. >> So, 25 years, right?
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Of conditioning and habits.
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So, it takes time for everybody involved to change the habits. >> taking bomb. >> Yeah.
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>> They were so intense with him.
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And he was, I would say, so fast respond.
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And his also walk was that way.
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He tried to walk fast because he believed then walking fast he will be normal. Right?
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But I slowed down everything.
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I taught him how to walk and it was the torture for him, but you know, said, "Heel and toe and heel."
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After about 2 3 years, he started walking normally, heel and toe and I know I have a video I sent you a video of it.
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It was just amazing to watch that hand to walk with soft arms because the his arms were really up and and really contracted, yeah.
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And control, extremely controlled.
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And then everything started being more soft and relaxed and and he started walking like, you know, like a normal person what the father wanted.
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Came to one of my birthdays and it was just amazing to see him after about 4 years people were just you know puzzled and I was, you know, it was just like, "Is it the same person, really?
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What happened to Tadzhan?"
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It was just like amazing.
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>> So, I'd love to highlight a few of the ingredients that were critical for the recipe that led to that.
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Because friend of mine I'll name him cuz it's funny.
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He'll get a good laugh out of it.
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I remember I introduced my friend Mike to you and Mike has very is a multitude of issues with his hips. He has one titanium hip.
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And I remember I introduced the two you, he came over and you guys trained.
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He you laid out a program for him.
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And he was he was unable to squat properly to a to a certain depth, so you meet people where they are, right?
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Everybody can improve, but it's about knowing the starting point.
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You're famous for saying this.
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And so, you gave him a certain depth, and I remember he He did that for maybe a week, and then he was feeling good, so he decided to do it, you know, 5 in deeper or something like that.
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And he came back and met with you, and your response was, "You are wasting both of our time."
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Because the micro progressions are a key component to progressing without injury.
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And also, I know that you feel like the no pain, no gain approach to training is a myth, right?
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Or that belief undergirding training.
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So, I want to mention just a few other things, and they are of course, all in line with your most famous mantra of hard choices, easy life, easy choices, hard life.
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Hard doesn't necessarily mean painful, right?
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But it does mean hard or difficult.
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But I want to mention a few of them here, because it's so comprehensive.
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We'll come back to this, but the car spotting, right?
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So, Toj was so lethargic, as we already noted, that he was typically sleeping, but after 6 months or so, you asked his father if he noticed anything new, and he remarked that Toj had noticed a car on the way over.
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So, you started to give him assignments to remember the cars that he spotted, the color, the make, whether the driver was male or female.
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And you got an inkling of his potential for math because he started memorizing the license plates, which is just incredible. Then, negativity, right?
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This sort of negative affect.
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You already mentioned him hating the sun, hating the police, hating this, that, or the other thing.
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At certain points, hating the workout, which maybe we'll come back to, because the I I thought it was very clever how you responded to that with, "Well, once you're an adult, you can decide if you want to quit the training."
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And you had >> And that was a trick.
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>> you had Yeah, it was a trick and you had hurdles for hitting that. >> Yeah.
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>> You also gave him assignments though to come back to the negativity having dialogues and asking him questions to see the world more objectively.
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So, assignments having writing English and explain why the sun and the peace might be important for our existence. The use of celebrations.
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I might ask you about this, but having certain milestones for him where you would give him a certificate and then I think it was later on going to restaurants with his family and giving it to him in front of them, but also because his his life I suppose seemed so perhaps to him uneventful up to that point like nothing was happening.
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Maybe you could speak a little bit to that and then I'll jump into some of these others.
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>> Well, you know, his brain was virgin. >> Mhm.
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>> So, nothing was there. >> Yeah.
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>> So, he didn't have history. >> Mhm.
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>> So, he couldn't really talk about whatever he was doing.
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He was not doing anything.
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>> Right, there's no content.
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>> to create, you know, history in his mind.
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Create memory about something. >> Mhm.
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>> So, one of the things was to give him certificates for the breaking records.
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So, whenever he broke the record then we you know, printed diploma and I asked father to set up a dinner celebration.
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And every time a record was broken in the squad or bench press, we went for a dinner.
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During this dinner, we gave him diploma and some other people came and it was the celebration.
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And the gentleman started liking this was like a a star and and after about a year I saw him he started talking about this celebration. He talked about math.
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He talk about poems and so all of it start becoming his memory, his history. It was very important.
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And he also start liking breaking records.
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He got crazy on jumping on the box, but that came because you know, he wanted to be an adult.
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So >> Okay, so we're going to we're going to get to the >> I >> the adulthood that might come up immediately.
25:27
I also just want to give credit where credit is due to the parents and I don't know to what extent it was both parents or the father, but driving twice a week.
25:35
How how long was the commute each way?
25:40
>> So they were coming twice a week about 1 hour and a half driving one way.
25:43
So they had to have at least 4 hours >> Yeah. >> to come. Father was devoted. >> Yeah.
25:52
>> Very kind, devoted, and stoic. >> Mhm.
26:02
>> You know, he was there all the time.
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And you couldn't really see any irritation in him at all. Loved his son. >> Mhm. >> That was very clear.
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So he was coming every time when he couldn't come, his mother brought him in.
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But it was for them 4 hours >> That's right.
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>> And I was uh I discussed that with Tejan and I told Tejan how devoted was his father.
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Eventually when we started having conversation, philosophical conversation, appreciative conversation.
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So I try to pass on him the appreciation of his father.
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Enlarge the imagination about his father if the father was not committed to that for 5 years to bring his son twice a week and every time spend 4 hours and the money >> Mhm.
27:06
>> then I told to John, you wouldn't be who you are today.
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He helped you to become what you are.
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>> How did he respond to that?
27:18
>> Did John, you know, was interesting he was just sometimes look and you could see that he was thinking about something.
27:26
Sometimes he like it but the joy the most joy that I saw in him he was breaking the records and some VIDEOS ARE THERE.
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HE WAS SO joyous like when you see children sometimes. Very joyous.
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in that moment that nothing else happens. >> Yeah.
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>> And he was ecstatic, you know.
27:52
It was just so pleasurable to see.
27:58
>> Yeah, or like an athlete winning gold at the Olympics on the platform, you know. >> Yeah, exactly.
28:03
>> Let's talk as promised about responsibility and adulthood.
28:07
It was a crafty strategy on your part.
28:10
Could you could you speak to that?
28:14
>> Well, he didn't want to play piano first.
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>> Because he had been >> Some >> required to take piano lessons.
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>> Yeah, yeah, so father told him to play piano and I said he didn't like to come to the workout and training.
28:27
He didn't like the training.
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>> So, he didn't like the piano and he didn't like the training.
28:32
>> Yeah, and he said I want to stop the piano and and I said, well, you know you're not an adult so you cannot do it.
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You know, somebody needs to decide for you but when you become an adult you can stop the piano, You don't have to come here for the training. Mhm.
28:52
I said, "Well, you know, then what is the adult, right?"
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So, we started discussing.
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Yeah, so what do you think?
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And then he started discussing what is the really an adult.
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So, I said, "Well, you know, adult is independent."
29:06
What does it mean independent, right?
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So, working, making money, living somewhere separately, and so on and so But then, I said, "But there there's other thing that we can consider you an adult.
29:21
If you jump on an 18-in box, right?"
29:27
So, he was jumping at that time around 11, 12 box. >> Oh, 11, 12 in? >> Yeah. He will got so excited.
29:36
And he thought that he can conquer it, right? Very quickly.
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And he was on a mission with this box, I tell you.
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Now, he was like energy that was generated in him. >> Mhm.
29:49
>> Wow, this is the same energy like in me when I was wanted to go to Olympics, right?
29:53
It's like I would run to the forest, you know, 2:00 a. m.
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Whatever was needed to do, I would do.
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And I would do with lots of, you know, energy and and and this is commitment and So, he was committed. >> Mhm. >> He wanted to jump.
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But I knew that 6 in it will take 2 years.
30:14
His micro progression is that.
30:16
He was not going to do it easily.
30:18
But we were on and we are on and on.
30:24
And then, he came to I think about like 17 something inches. He was so excited.
30:30
And then, we ended up with some problems and had to heal his back because it's not so simple to just jump on an 18.
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This is a challenge He a huge challenge for me.
30:43
>> When people watch the documentary, and I would have mentioned this in the introduction, but I made a a short link.
30:52
Doesn't sound short, but easy to remember link that'll point you straight to it on YouTube. If you just go to tim. blog/hardchoices. If you go to tim.
31:00
blog/hardchoices, it'll take you straight to the doc.
31:02
But when you watch the doc, and you look at Dijan's before, right?
31:06
What is motion motor control walking looked like before, and imagine him jumping onto a 17-in box.
31:16
It is unimaginable when you look at the starting point. Really just incredible.
31:24
Now, I want to hear you explain another development that I think it's just so compelling, and that is related to math.
31:39
That's He starts memorizing license plate numbers.
31:43
You're also working with him on repetitions and building up some of that arithmetic muscle.
31:50
How did he go from that to doing math 5 to 6 hours a day, and having that fire lit with him?
31:59
>> Well, it was progressive.
31:59
But >> Right, it was progressive, but that's why I'm asking. How did he get there?
32:03
>> So, first I I started really working on the counting.
32:08
So, he had to count from until 20 or 30.
32:13
>> And I'm I'm so sorry to interrupt.
32:13
I just want to pause to just let people have that sink in for a second.
32:18
Math 5 to 6 hours a day, which again, we're going to talk about the journey.
32:21
Like most people on 20 cups of coffee a day could not do 5 to 6 hours of math a day.
32:28
>> I asked him about the counting.
32:31
First it was the counting.
32:31
That he couldn't count to 20.
32:32
So, I said, "Okay, let's count to 15. Can you count to 15?" So, we counted to 15.
32:39
When he got to 15, I said, "You go home and you start learning to count to 20."
32:45
So, he came back and I tested him. Did you count to 20? Yeah. So, okay, count. So, he counted.
32:54
So, then I add the addition, you know, how much is, you know, 5 + 7? He wouldn't know. So, homework.
33:01
Going homework, you learn how much is 5 by 6, 7, and 8, 9.
33:07
All the calculation up to 20 for the adding.
33:10
Then subtraction, division, multiplication.
33:15
All of that until, you know, the number 10 or 20.
33:21
Then counting to 30, 40, 50, 100.
33:21
And when we got there, I told that he needs a tutor.
33:31
We need a tutor, math tutor, and English tutor. He needs both.
33:37
And so, they hired people to help.
33:40
So, I was testing, of course, but he had these tutors.
33:43
So, I think that it was an amazing addition to work on his brain.
33:56
And I noticed the same story with others around policy people that have difficulties with math.
34:04
And some of the times that I saw that they had good English, but math looks like uh difficulties.
34:14
So, eventually, when he progressed with energy, with bench press, came to the certain point within a year that he could press about 100 lb.
34:27
And that gave him enough energy that he could go to his computer and spend hours on the computer to study his elementary school.
34:43
He started actually elementary school.
34:45
And you know, because he was not in elementary school, so he was 25 years old when he was sick.
34:50
So, he joined this program elementary school program and he started, you know, working through it on his own.
35:02
And after 2 years, he passed the whole elementary school.
35:08
Then he started high school.
35:10
Another 2 years and he passed.
35:14
Normal high school, I know like a normal the same program as other people do.
35:19
And father said Eugene is like on fire. He's like it's 2:00 a. m.
35:26
and he's still on his computer.
35:29
And he started like 8:00 p. m. and at 2:00 a. m.
35:31
he's on his computer and he doesn't want to stop.
35:38
It was something in him awaken and powerful.
35:46
And at the same time, he started noticing that who he was as a person.
35:53
That actually he was a person.
35:55
And he was cerebral palsy.
36:00
And that generated a lot of negativity in him, a lot of resentment to to his father and mother and then he started really talking that he hates his mother and then he hated everything at that time. Yeah. >> And more, yeah.
36:19
What did you notice in And just to flash forward, right?
36:23
I mean, he's his father's reported that he's living an independent existence, taking care of his own needs, planning his own days, orders Uber rides to get to his classes, manages his own paperwork.
36:33
So, that's the that's the after.
36:37
What did you notice in terms of and how did you cultivate this if you did?
36:42
I don't know if you did this deliberately or if it was a byproduct of everything else, but emotional range or facial expressions.
36:51
Did any of those Did any of that change over the course of the training?
36:56
>> Well, emotionally, he was blank, the same. So, for a long time.
37:03
>> You mean in whatever circumstances?
37:05
>> Yeah, but at certain point, he started being negative and expressing his negativity.
37:12
And then he he made these moves and I couldn't see where he was.
37:19
I was looking for where he was, but I I addressed negativity as something that needed to be fixed.
37:31
So, whenever he said that he hated something, I challenged it.
37:35
Challenged it in a way, why is it good? Right?
37:41
So, he was negative, but and then why police is good. Why the sun is good.
37:48
Why the father is good, why the mother is good.
37:50
So, expanding and expanding imagination for him to facilitate this so he could find in his mind actually acceptance that actually is a good thing.
38:04
It's a huge shift in his psych believing and and liking people, right? He never liked me.
38:13
He was just like I don't like you and he says, I don't like you. He just says that.
38:19
>> How long When he say that for? >> All the time. He has never liked me.
38:25
>> So, he'll celebrate and give you a high five here at training, but still >> I don't know even today if he likes me. Probably not.
38:37
You know, I I created a lot of hard choices for him, so he went out You know, eventually he will come to this point that he will maybe like what I done, maybe, but not really maybe. >> Oh, wow. That's kind of amazing. Uh well, you know what?
38:57
As as long as you don't care about the credit, you're doing good work in the world, I guess.
39:01
>> I was not, you know, there to >> Yeah. >> to shine, you know. >> Of course. Of course.
39:05
Could you talk about helping him or asking him to identify heroes a bit?
39:13
That also stuck out to me.
39:16
Could you provide a little bit of context to people on that piece?
39:20
>> So, he was already in elementary school.
39:23
And he was writing an essay about a hero.
39:29
>> That was an assignment. >> Yes. And he wrote it.
39:30
So, he was from school, not from you. Yeah, yeah, from school.
39:34
Because he already had that tutor, English tutor.
39:38
So, he was always proud when he did something.
39:40
He was bringing something and and reading me So, you know, he read it.
39:51
And so, he wrote about Genghis Khan. >> Mhm.
39:55
>> And I said, "Okay, so is Genghis Khan a hero?" Yeah.
40:01
Okay, so I said, "Well, why he is a hero?"
40:05
Uh he talked a little bit, and I said, "So, who is a hero?"
40:09
Well, that created a philosophical approach.
40:12
So, we ended up that the hero is really risking their own life for others, to save others.
40:21
But that's not Genghis Khan.
40:21
So, Genghis Khan was not that.
40:23
He was a conqueror, but he was not a hero.
40:27
And then, at the same time, I watched this movie about Admiral, actually Korean Admiral.
40:33
About 300 Japanese ships were coming to Korea to, you know, conquer them.
40:39
And he, with one ship and 12, and he stood up to them.
40:43
And actually, the 12 ships, you know, the people didn't want to fight, wanted to surrender. He said, "No."
40:51
And he fought, and he fought.
40:54
And these other 12 ships, you know, joined him eventually, and the whole armada, Japanese armada, turned back. >> Mhm.
41:02
>> And I said, "That is your hero." >> Mhm. Yeah.
41:05
>> And I said, "That is your hero from Korea, and you are going to rewrite this essay. But it's too late."
41:14
I said, "It's not too late.
41:14
You're going to go to your teacher.
41:18
You tell the teacher why Genghis Khan was not a hero, and you want to rewrite the essay." >> Okay. >> I said, "Okay. You go and do it." And he did.
41:31
And he rewrote the essay. The teacher agreed.
41:36
>> I can see why he might not like you. >> Yeah.
41:39
>> It's just >> It's Yeah. Yeah. >> fair.
41:41
>> It was It was very quick, you know.
41:41
You know, you you know, people >> Well, >> Well, I I was coaching him. It was He was jumping. He was lifting.
41:47
And at the same time, we did poetry, math, English, write all of it together. And it was >> Yeah. >> quick.
41:58
>> Hard teachers he didn't like you.
41:59
>> wasn't like me, I don't know. Yeah. There are many reasons.
42:02
But you know, uh one day he was he wanted to step on the 6-in box, I remember.
42:07
And he tries to step, and he would not.
42:13
>> And this is the one foot up >> Just slipping one foot and like on a stair, right?
42:17
It was like he he was and then like I couldn't make it.
42:23
So, I grabbed his shirt and pulled him. >> I've seen the video. >> In and out.
42:28
And after about two times, I left him, and he was jumping on this box like one of the others stepping one one one and so fast.
42:38
It's just amazing what the brain is. >> Yeah.
42:41
>> You get a little bit help, and suddenly the door opens up, and it's the progression is huge and fast. It's amazing.
42:50
I tell you what I was watching, what I learned during this process. Wow.
42:55
>> Yeah, I just even to this day, I know that modern science has come to a greater appreciation of brain plasticity and the malleability and adaptability.
43:05
And of course, just as the let's call it broadly speaking, this is a simplification, but the control center for the entire body, right?
43:10
The brain's job is to keep the body alive.
43:12
So, they're they're dance partners.
43:16
There is just so much room for improvement.
43:19
And I mean, a lot of the science that I've supported has been related to this, but it This was the first time I'd ever seen such an amazing transformation in someone with cerebral palsy that was so clearly and well documented also, right?
43:40
And I want to talk about next steps in a little bit to try to expand this into a study.
43:46
But, before we get there, can you speak to training logic?
43:55
So, I think that was after about 2 years of already training with him, but working on his thought process using poetry. Why did you do that?
44:04
He couldn't really read the lines of poetry and understand the feelings emotions behind.
44:13
So, then I started really doing the math and seeing whether he can think logically. >> Mhm. >> Right?
44:24
So, I tested him, you know, if A is B and B is C, so is A is also C and and playing these games.
44:38
And slowly he started not only being logical in I asked him about writing something about what is logic and give me the example.
44:49
And so, he was he would bring me was there logic or not? So, we tested that. And then added the math.
44:55
But the most difficult for him was to read the line of poetry and know the metaphor.
45:06
Not really what really happened, but what was the meaning of the line. >> not just the words. >> Yeah. And every line.
45:11
So, when I asked him to remember and recite the poem, he would recite the poem.
45:16
And then we analyze the poem every line. Line after line. And what is the meaning?
45:23
What is the feeling of the line?
45:26
And that was an amazing possibility for him to learn the language and the feeling feelings behind the language, the emotions.
45:40
At the beginning, he didn't have any clue about the feelings.
45:44
What the actually written words express when it comes to feelings.
45:50
>> Yeah, when I think about your entire coaching experience with Tuganym, struck by how many different levers you were you were able to help him pull, right?
46:06
But one that sort of meta lesson that pops out to me, and I'd love for you to correct this if I'm not thinking about it the right way, is that he didn't respond to people in conversation, right?
46:19
Didn't have much of a response.
46:23
In part, and I'm projecting here, because he didn't have the belief that he could.
46:27
He had no history to support the belief that he could. Right?
46:30
And then with physical movement, similar, right?
46:35
And you gave the example, I mean, this is a very fast example, but of grabbing the shirt and kind of forcing him to do it, and then within a few repetitions, you let go, and he's doing it on his own.
46:45
And of course, there's the progression over time, but even with the poetry and how you gave him assignments to practice public speaking, without that, he wouldn't have had the confidence to then speak, say, within the more complicated context of school with classmates and things like that.
47:05
I have to imagine, right?
47:08
But you know, I sometimes have listeners or readers ask me, "What can I read to develop more confidence?"
47:14
And I'm like, "Well, you can try to read to develop more confidence, but really, like, you're not going to fool yourself.
47:19
You need to do things to develop the history of doing things so that you have confidence."
47:27
Does that resonate, or would you add or reframe that somehow?
47:31
>> You know, yeah, of course, you know, what what you say is a certain perspective, but I would like to tell you about my perspective.
47:39
>> Yeah, that's why I'm asking.
47:41
>> You know, I saw the mind, the brain as something that needs to find a way forward and find the way around those patches that were that. >> Mhm.
47:56
>> And I saw it everywhere.
47:56
I saw it in math when you cannot know what is 2 + 2, that is 4, and you struggle.
48:08
You know, for me the child struggles to find out what is 2 + 2.
48:11
Eventually the child knows.
48:14
And there are so there are certain connections already.
48:19
And then 2 + 3 and so on. Right?
48:19
So development of math I so crucial here, very important.
48:26
That when I am not there, he can practice actually the math.
48:32
And by practicing the math, we overcome this you know, many steps.
48:38
The steps of progression, the micro progression.
48:44
And also that challenge has this plasticity of the brain.
48:50
That that plasticity is not you know, like I thought, okay, I make him strong doesn't mean that something else is going to happen.
48:57
Or maybe I will not make him strong because the math is not developed.
49:04
So I saw the connection between the the squat, the bench, the numbers, the words, and the beliefs and philosophy.
49:15
I saw connections everywhere, and I created the challenges, the hard choices every time. Everywhere.
49:23
For me, you know, bench pressing going from 100 lb to 102 was not different than to know what is 15 + 17.
49:36
If I know what is 15 + 17 is an another thing that when it happens, something happened in the brain that was not there before.
49:50
And I started facilitating all this development of the brain that would be challenged, develop from different perspective.
50:02
And I think that eventually the research is to be done.
50:07
You know, I try to understand what I've done because I've never really work with person like that, right?
50:14
So, I try to understand, too, what happened there, how did it happen, and whether there there is possibility even to replicate this and help, you know, so many people.
50:28
Taj's progress is amazing, crazy, amazing, >> Mhm. >> magical.
50:36
And if that could be replicable, wow, we could help a lot of people.
50:42
>> talk about it because before we start recording, I was trying to get an idea of the rough number of cerebral palsy diagnoses in the US.
50:48
And you're based in Northern California, so I wanted to get an idea in California.
50:56
These are real back of the napkin rough internet responses, but it seems like, let's call it roughly 1 million diagnoses in the US, potentially, and then could be occurrences, not diagnoses, but somewhere between 100 and 120,000 in California alone.
51:13
So, this is a non-trivial condition.
51:16
It's very prevalent and if you could develop a method, right, through doing research, develop a method that you mentioned could be replicated, could be taught to physical therapists, then this could have tremendous impact on a wide scale.
51:36
And maybe we could talk about what some of your thoughts are.
51:44
And I'm going to create a web form for people who want to potentially indicate interest in certain facets of this.
51:53
But, what might what might the program look like?
51:55
How many How many patients would you have?
52:00
What would it look like in practice to do a research project to determine if you can formulate a method that would be replicable, or a template maybe with a little bit of tweaking here and there that physical therapists could use or others?
52:12
>> Meantime, I had some experience with others with our policy, EPO.
52:14
And my approach is one, I believe that everybody can improve.
52:25
So, it really doesn't matter for me if it's cerebral palsy or not. >> Mhm.
52:30
>> If it's chronic fatigue, it can happen. >> Mhm.
52:34
>> If it's fibromyalgia, the progress can happen.
52:36
So, with cerebral palsy, when we think about cerebral palsy, people they have different conditions, different beginnings.
52:46
The most important is to find where is the beginning? Where to start?
52:52
There's a one of the major thing because usually I think that we want too much. >> Mhm.
52:59
>> It's not going to happen.
52:59
So, we need to find this very tiny thing.
53:04
You remember Jewel in Hawaii?
53:04
You helped me to go and coach her. >> Mhm.
53:10
>> She was 18 at that time, and she couldn't control her head and arms and legs.
53:17
So, her mother would hold her, and I would try to find out where is the beginning with her. >> Mhm.
53:23
>> And she has hands like this, and and it was moving, and and I found out that I pointed to one place.
53:32
I took a ball very close to her, like about an inch from her arm and then and fingers, and asked her to touch it. >> Mhm.
53:43
>> And she struggled and struggled and we found a way where actually she could touch and then she was so happy >> Mhm. >> when she touched.
53:50
Oh, I have to send you these videos. >> Yeah, please.
53:54
>> You can cry, you know, when you can see things like this.
53:58
And her joy when she was doing So, also the mouth I found out that her mind was very good with stories.
54:07
She could talk about some things and she loved the stories to listen to stories.
54:15
But her mouth was not really different than the chance. >> The mouth?
54:19
>> Yeah, that was like she could only count from 1 to 10.
54:24
And then adding, you know, 2 + 5 she would and then we would start with that.
54:30
So, I see the mouth is major part of that method.
54:38
The physical is is of course the beginning.
54:44
The beginning is how strong they are and how flexible they are.
54:47
Flexibility is the main point here because the awkwardness comes from both.
54:55
One thing that the brain, the mind cannot control those places but those places also the the parts of the body became that way. >> Mhm.
55:03
>> So, that's why awkwardness is coming in.
55:06
So, the the physical and the physical improvement of the physical becomes challenging because they can, you know, injure themselves. They can be in pain.
55:21
And those two who will facilitate they will need to know how to start. >> Mhm.
55:27
>> How to use the micro progression, how to write everything down.
55:30
Like the gen knew all his numbers.
55:33
He knew how to measure the time of, you know, five or 10 jumps and he would write all the the jumps and brought to the gym what he did.
55:46
His homework was numbers, numbers, numbers, numbers.
55:49
Not only the numbers of counting, but also the numbers of measure. >> Mhm. >> Right?
55:54
>> So, just to hop in for a second, cuz I would love to help.
55:58
Of course, that's part of the reason we're doing this conversation is to help facilitate trying to create some type of template that can be applied to a lot of people with cerebral palsy.
56:12
So, the the short link, not to bury the lead, the short link will just be tim.
56:15
blog/cp and we'll have a web form for people who may want to help from an academic perspective, ideally in Northern California, somewhere within near driving distance, since you would want to be there, I I think the thought is maybe twice a week with these different folks, something like that.
56:33
>> Yeah, I see that about maybe five cerebral palsy people. >> Mhm.
56:39
>> And meeting them twice a week.
56:43
Let's say Tuesday and Friday. >> Mhm.
56:47
>> For 1 year and then add another five. >> Mhm. >> So, now it's 10. Another five. >> Mhm.
56:56
>> And do it for 5 years. >> 5 years in total. >> Yeah. Record everything. See how it works.
57:05
Bring therapists or others that could actually watch, observe, and learn. >> Mhm.
57:11
>> And I believe that is replicability is possible. We need to test it.
57:22
We need to explore whether how is it really possible.
57:24
What can we actually do >> Mhm.
57:29
>> when we have this, you know, 25 people It could be that it was because I was there, but I don't want to say it that it was because of me everything happened.
57:40
It could be that perfect storm happened because I remember I was a math teacher. I'm a poet. >> Mhm. >> I'm a weightlifter.
57:50
So, so all of it it happened that I was this one person facilitating that. >> Mhm.
57:56
>> But when we do research, we don't have to have one person.
57:58
We can have, you know, math people, English, and, you know, philosophers, and we can have trainers.
58:07
We can create a center, and in that center we can think about how we can progress. >> Mhm.
58:18
>> How we can improve and document everything in details the same way as I was doing.
58:26
Micro progression is an amazing power. >> Mhm.
58:32
What strikes me also that with the right people involved and with the right consistency, right?
58:37
And I mean, you might need a faculty member to agree to spearhead it, and then there would be fundraising, which, you know, is pretty straightforward to figure out, and then they would have post-docs or people underneath them who would help with recruitment, although I don't think that'll be a problem after this podcast.
58:56
Patient recruitment, and then making the trains run on time.
59:00
But I could see a path, as I'm sure you've thought about this much more than I have, but where you could end up with something like a core curriculum of principles, right?
59:09
That you're teaching, and maybe you're recording video modules to explain these things to practitioners, where it's like micro progressions, finding a place to start.
59:19
What are different ways to find a place to start?
59:22
And then perhaps there's certain things that won't apply to everyone.
59:24
So, for instance, we didn't talk about We don't have to spend a lot of time on it, but Tejan was kind of crumpled to the right side, right?
59:31
So, you had a ball hanging from the ceiling that you would have him reach up to touch to help correct that.
59:36
So, there might be core curriculum and principles and then sort of ancillary principles and techniques that can be applied on a case-by-case basis, but then you end up with this core curriculum that people can learn remotely or something like that.
59:52
I mean, it's it's really exciting to think about.
59:55
>> At this point, I see that we can assess these people from five perspectives, I think.
1:00:03
The physical perspective, you know, where they are physically, and where is the flexibility, where is the strength.
1:00:09
Math perspective, language perspective, philosophy perspective, beliefs perspective, where they are.
1:00:18
So, easily we can take the psychology and then psychologists and develop certain ways of assessing them.
1:00:28
Where are beliefs, right?
1:00:28
Uh in math is very clear, right?
1:00:32
In the language, you need probably English teachers and they will create very quickly curriculum to find out where is the level of that.
1:00:41
And then once we have the assess, okay, we have a physical problem that is 80% math is only 3% is not, you know, the person is really good in math in English as well.
1:01:01
But we can have also that math is not there at all, and walking is good.
1:01:06
So, there are all possibilities how we can assess from these five perspectives these people.
1:01:14
But But we need also explore and experience them. Right?
1:01:18
This you know, not only one person to join because it's just only one person.
1:01:24
Now, we need to see can we actually do a five?
1:01:29
Can we actually deliver what we delivered?
1:01:32
>> I mean, this is the scientific method, right?
1:01:35
And you've such a fantastic starting point, right?
1:01:37
It's an N of one, although you you've worked with more than one person with cerebral palsy at this point, but let me just give the URL out again.
1:01:46
So, for people who might be interested, if you are at Stanford or UCSF or San Jose State or someplace that might be able to help with this type of research.
1:01:55
If you are in a financial position and would like to support this type of research, go to tim. blog/cp.
1:02:04
Or if you have other resources you want to bring to bear on this in some way, tim.
1:02:07
blog/the letters cp standing for cerebral palsy. So, tim.
1:02:10
blog/cp and just fill out the web form.
1:02:12
I'm incredibly excited about this.
1:02:15
We covered a lot in our first conversation and we've covered a lot in this conversation.
1:02:21
Is there anything else that you'd like to mention or cover that we haven't gotten to already today? >> Uh another question.
1:02:32
Well, we covered a lot, but I think one of the most important, you know, thing is that uh people can get help.
1:02:41
And if we have the right approach, we can facilitate, create that.
1:02:45
And of course, they change, right? We didn't change them. >> Mhm.
1:02:53
>> So, we have to remember that we are facilitators.
1:02:55
We are not really coaches that, you know, created that powerful human being.
1:03:02
That actually powerful human being created themselves.
1:03:08
And we have to create a place where it's athletically aligned with our athleticism and not care only.
1:03:19
We know I say that as soon as we care or we exercise without mission or purpose or goals, then we can exercise for 10 years and never change. >> Mhm.
1:03:33
>> So, I saw these people thousands of these people. Right?
1:03:38
So, it doesn't apply only to cerebral palsy people cuz it applies to everyone else.
1:03:45
But, with cerebral palsy, it's very interesting because they have this situation in the mind in the brain that actually we could work with. >> Mhm.
1:03:57
>> These are the patches in the brain that we can create the peripheral nervous system that actually goes around. We can create that mind.
1:04:07
That plasticity of the mind we can create.
1:04:12
I think it is I have strong feeling that this is possible.
1:04:16
I always believed that it can be done.
1:04:22
I just created challenges, constant challenges with the child.
1:04:28
That could deliver the results to change the way I wanted. >> Mhm.
1:04:33
>> It has to be always the where are you going, right?
1:04:35
So, for me, he had to walk straight, he had to walk soft.
1:04:42
And for me, I would not sleep until I would get it.
1:04:45
So, we need devoted people.
1:04:47
We need people that are devoted to this to these people to help them.
1:04:53
Not just, you know, physical therapists that want us to take make money and go home. >> Mhm.
1:05:00
>> And this is a huge challenge.
1:05:00
These people extremely challenging and we need to also challenge them. >> Yeah.
1:05:08
>> And by the creating this challenge, we can create amazing thing actually. >> Yeah.
1:05:14
>> So, it is not something that somebody is has cancer and it will get worse. >> Mhm.
1:05:20
>> That's not the situation here.
1:05:20
This is a very unique situation with cerebral palsy people that we have the situation that somebody is and somebody doesn't change for worse. Somebody is like that.
1:05:33
Can change for worse too because life happens.
1:05:36
But because people are like that we have very clear slate to begin with. >> Mhm.
1:05:47
>> And we are not dealing with ill people. >> Mhm. >> Sick people.
1:05:50
We just dealing with people who mechanically something happened to their brain. >> Mhm.
1:05:57
>> And that can create for us a really great beginning. >> Mhm.
1:06:04
>> And it could be that with almost any cerebral palsy something like this return to I wouldn't say they cannot return because many of them they are just that way.
1:06:20
So, they cannot return anywhere, but they can improve and become like Dajan become Dajan that is going to college from the person that was only waiting for food and sleep and couldn't go to toilet and was lethargic all the time.
1:06:45
The life was like that for him and that life would be like that. Right?
1:06:49
If nothing happened what actually we did. He would be that person.
1:06:55
And the parent Here is the parents.
1:06:58
The parents I saw happy parents.
1:07:02
But after three, four years they actually they were like a ticking bomb.
1:07:08
You said about intensity between these three people. Right?
1:07:13
But about three, four years I saw them happy first time. Happy.
1:07:22
And that is enough to fight for. Right?
1:07:25
To give everything whatever you have.
1:07:27
To create the happiness in these three people who were worrying all the time.
1:07:37
What will happen if they die?
1:07:39
Or what will happen if something happened to them?
1:07:41
Now they don't have to worry anymore.
1:07:43
The genius is completely independent.
1:07:45
He is in college for Christ's sake. Just imagine that.
1:07:52
And a lot of that, I believe, 100% that can happen with everyone. >> Yeah.
1:08:01
You're the happy body micro progressions when your philosophy is and philosophy might scare people off.
1:08:05
Your principles can be applied to so many different things that you and Aniela have developed over the years.
1:08:12
Really want to make this research project happen.
1:08:14
So, folks, if you're interested in any way helping with that in whatever capacity, you go to tim. blog/cp.
1:08:23
And then also want to mention, just like the way that you and Aniela coach can be applied almost certainly to many different conditions, many different circumstances, all circumstances in some sense.
1:08:37
I want to give a shout-out to Jeff Wolf, the director of Prisoner No More.
1:08:41
I always ask everybody before I talk to them or do anything with them, what would make it truly a home run.
1:08:47
And he just mentioned the bigger opportunity is to position Prisoner No More not just as a stand-alone short, but as a proof of concept for a larger series.
1:08:58
The vision is a slate under the same umbrella.
1:09:00
So, you could have Prisoner No More for alcoholism, Prisoner No More for fill in the blank, right?
1:09:03
Which I think is also very exciting.
1:09:05
So, I really, really hope people You got to watch it.
1:09:10
You got to see what we're talking about visually.
1:09:11
It'll just A lot of you are going to cry.
1:09:14
I'm going to tell you in advance. But, it's good cry. So, check it out. tim.
1:09:20
blog/hardchoices in honor of >> Hard choices.
1:09:25
>> Hard choices, easy life. Easy choices, hard life. So, so it's tim. blog/hardchoices. Check it out.
1:09:30
You can find the Happy Body and more on Jerzy and Aniela's training at the happybody. com.
1:09:38
And I'll link to everything in the show notes as usual at tim. blog/podcast.
1:09:42
So, if you're like, that's a lot to remember, don't worry about it. Just go to tim.
1:09:45
blog/podcast and search Jerzy, not spelled like New Jersey, but spelled j e r z y.
1:09:53
And trust me, there's only one Jerzy on my website. It's Jerzy Gregorek.
1:09:58
Jerzy, thank you so much for the time.
1:10:00
It's always great to see you. >> Thank you, Tim.
1:10:03
>> And everybody who has tuned in, as always, I appreciate you.
1:10:09
Till next time, be just a bit kinder than is necessary to others and to yourself. But, not just comfort.
1:10:16
Don't just make yourself feel better.
1:10:18
Don't just eat that cheeseburger and watch reality TV on Netflix. Challenge yourself.
1:10:24
Wherever you happen to be, you can make progress.
1:10:25
You can make amazing progress.
1:10:28
You You just need to right starting point.
1:10:30
And for that reason, check out the happybody. com.
1:10:35
Listen to my first conversation with Jerzy on the podcast as well.
1:10:37
Until next time, thanks for tuning in. >> Thank you, Tim.