The Man Who Built New York's Famous Queens Night Market | John Wang — searchlore

The Man Who Built New York's Famous Queens Night Market | John Wang

Published Jan 29, 2026

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0:00

So, I figured I'd bite the bullet, become a corporate lawyer for a couple years, and then then figure out what I wanted to do.

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I always knew I was not going to be a lawyer.

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Why don't I just start New York's first night market?

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I fell asleep that night and I woke up like, well, that sounds like something I could do that would could impact New York City forever and ever.

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And so, that day I decided I would spend a year trying to do that.

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At the time, there was two competing night markets in Vancouver and then like a once a year night market in LA.

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And that was, as far as I could tell, that was all that existed in North America.

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And in like 11 years, somehow the Financial Times listed us as a top 10 market in the entire world.

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Welcome back to Infinite Loops. I'm Jim Oanosy.

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Today's guest is John Wang, the founder of Queen's Night Market, one of the most joyful civic hacks in New York City.

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John was a Yale trained lawyer who burned out, walked away from the clean, high status trend, and decided to build something weirdly ambitious.

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Please enjoy my conversation with John Wang.

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John Wang, founder of the Queens Night Market. Welcome.

1:03

I I am so taken by your story and I and I want to start at the beginning because you made a huge career decision, right?

1:12

You were Yale trained lawyer, you know, on the fast track and then you were kind of like this is not working for me. Welcome. >> Thank you. I'm happy to be here. Thanks for inviting me.

1:23

So, you want me to go tell you >> I want your superhero origin story. >> Origin story. Wow.

1:28

Uh, born and raised in Texas. Um, wanted to leave.

1:30

I was not a very particularly good high school student.

1:35

So, I wanted to but which meant I couldn't go to the local good local schools.

1:39

UT Austin was sort of where everyone tends to go, but you have to be in your pretty high inner class.

1:42

And I actually was just a kind of a terrible high school student. Never went to class.

1:46

Decided I would go to the best school college that would take me as far away as possible from Texas.

1:50

So I went uh to the University of Michigan, spent four years there. Graduated >> Ann Arbor. >> Ann Arbor. Yeah. >> Yep. Beautiful college town. >> Yeah. Not bad.

1:58

I mean, if you like college towns.

2:02

Um uh triple majored there and then finished up in four years. Moved back to Texas.

2:09

Uh played poker and pool for a little while and then got into law school. Went to Yale Law School.

2:14

Then I was working for the dean of the business school.

2:18

So joined the joint degree, did the MBA as well and then left um with a bunch of student debt uh was the sort of the big question or the big sort of looming cloud over me.

2:27

Uh and I figured I would um so I graduated during the recession and figured tried to figure out what the best way to pay off the student loans was because it was either investment bank or law firm.

2:36

When I was graduating, the stories were, you know, people investment bankers jumping out of the building because they only got, you know, $100,000 in bonuses.

2:45

And so it's like, well, and then law firms at the time weren't able, I don't know if it's still true, but it was bad PR for them to fire anyone.

2:52

So they just had to hold on to their entire staff.

2:54

So I figured I'd bite the bullet, become a corporate lawyer for a couple years, and then then figure out what I wanted to do once I hit up a student loan.

3:01

>> Let me stop you because I have a couple of questions.

3:03

Something that I've noticed, I have no empirical data for, so this is a vibe, right?

3:07

But so many people who do really interesting, innovative, creative things were not great in high school.

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So what what about your case?

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Like you're just bored by it.

3:21

>> I maybe I am not a good student.

3:21

Like I >> sorry says the guy who's got a JD and an MBA from Yale. >> Right.

3:30

No, but uh and I mean there's a lot of background to that, right?

3:32

So I mean I'm probably a very good tech test taker.

3:35

The reason I was not a good student in high school is because I didn't never go to class and there were like lots of attendance requirements and that kind of thing.

3:40

I think if you gave me a test, I'd probably do pretty well.

3:43

I, you know, I can't tell you whether it was boredom or just not liking school, but also like when I went to college, despite having, you know, having three majors, I also never went to class. >> We share that. Good. Well, good.

3:52

Uh, and I actually went out of my way to figure out how to escape the attendance requirements. >> Me, too.

4:00

And so much so that I would prop it I became a thing that I would go into a class and propose to professor.

4:04

I would say I know you have attendance requirement.

4:07

I'll make a deal with you.

4:09

I'll take all your tests.

4:09

If I get an A, you wave the attendance requirement.

4:11

If I get anything less than A, you can do whatever you want with the attendance requirement.

4:16

And surprisingly, a lot of them said, "Okay, that's a weird proposition, but sure, go ahead."

4:19

And that's how I ended up.

4:22

>> And And what was it that made you not want to go to class?

4:24

I don't know for to this day like if you tried to stick me in the classroom I'd probably freak out and I get very jittery.

4:30

I get you know it's not claustrophobia.

4:32

I I don't know maybe it's some sort of like deep anti you know anti- athoritarianism.

4:38

I don't I don't know what it is.

4:40

Like it is like >> I knew that I was going to love you because like the I don't I I try to avoid all of the insane crazy political debates but what I will always go with is I am fiercely anti- athoritarian.

4:56

Yeah, I there's this funny story and um I was in a seminar at law school uh and I had it was only like one day a month or something so you had to go um and I had a friend who was beside me and I remember you could use your laptops and I was like googling you know Nintendo games that you could play and you know I started playing and that's this old

5:16

Nintendo game but it's got started to get really into it and there's only like six people in the class or something like that and so I'm sitting next to my friend and I'm just you know It's three-hour seminar, but at some point I'm just so involved in my game and I'm like clacking loudly and my friend just starts poking me and like, "John, John, John, stop." And I look up, the entire

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And I look up, the entire class has stopped and everyone's staring at me because I'm just like jamming on these buttons and everyone like apparently it been like quiet for like 3 minutes.

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Everyone's just staring at me wondering what I'm doing.

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And how can someone take notes so so vehemently taking notes?

5:46

But it was actually just playing like a like a fighting game.

5:48

I think it was like Oh my god. I was so embarrassed.

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My friend was embarrassed.

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And like I think they took a coffee break after like after that >> when you took the corporate legal job that was you were looking at that as a gig.

6:01

You you you weren't going to make that your career. >> For sure. No.

6:04

Like I counted down the days until I could pay off my loans and then figure out I I'm sort of doomed to not be satisfied, I think.

6:13

So, um so it like you know I I'm not sure there's a dream job out there for me other than you know pure retirement.

6:20

uh uh whatever that means.

6:23

But yeah, it was definitely counting down the days.

6:25

And I don't mean that like, you know, I'm not a miserable person, but um you know, I knew you know, it was it was temporary.

6:34

>> And then what was the inspiration for the night market? >> A couple of things.

6:38

So just why a night market was definitely childhood summers in Taiwan that, you know, each city has a bajillion night markets. They're all super fun.

6:45

And I remember every summer when I would go, all I wanted to do every single night was force my family to take me because they're super fun and these fun games, the food and all this stuff.

6:53

My lawyer days and shortly thereafter, I was still traveling a bit.

6:57

Um, you know, I found myself always wanting to either go to the local markets or the local night markets.

7:01

Like anywhere I went, that's like all I really care to do.

7:05

And uh, my wife is probably displeased that like I'm not a museum person. I'm not a sightseer.

7:10

Like all I really want to do is go check out what the people are doing, like the locals.

7:14

When I finished the law firm, I dabbled in a couple projects.

7:17

Uh they all depended on someone else's specialized skills.

7:21

So one was like an app, depended on a developer.

7:23

One I was going to move to Milan to start a Texas barbecue with my friend.

7:27

He got cold feet and then I was going to start a weather consultancy company with a superstar meteorologist who I grew up with.

7:35

Um, and they all got cold feet or disappeared and uh, you know, that I'd spent a year spinning my wheels and then decided um, I was going to move to New Orleans. I love New Orleans. I've always loved it.

7:46

Uh, and then when I was about to move, I gave myself two weeks to think of something to do in New York City.

7:52

Convinced my friend, my Italian friend to start uh, he's a old school Italian, loves talking, loves Italy, uh, his English is better than most Americans.

8:01

Um, so I was trying to convince him to do the world's biggest Italian like import export expo.

8:05

Like he gets to talk, he gets to smoo, he gets to do all the stuff that he loves to do.

8:09

And he thought it was a very good idea, but then just got cold feet again or just thought, you know, I think he used the word chicken So, so anyways, I fell asleep that night and I woke up like, well, that sounds like something I could do.

8:22

Not necessarily an expo, but you know, why don't I just start New York's first night market?

8:25

I was like, well, that could change.

8:27

I mean, that would could impact New York City forever and ever.

8:30

And so that day I decided I would spend a year trying to do that.

8:33

But at the time there was two competing night markets in Vancouver and then like a once a year night market in LA.

8:39

And that was as far as I could tell that was all that existed in North America.

8:42

And all but the thing with those three they were all 95 99% Asian focused which makes a lot of sense if you look at sort of the storied night markets around the world t they tend to be Asian.

8:52

Uh, but I thought if this is my reason for staying in New York City, like I have to make it New York in and out.

8:58

Like everything about it has to speak New York except the price gap, right?

9:02

Uh, and the price gap, which in 2015, 2016 was $5.

9:05

So any food you could buy.

9:08

In 2017, we moved it to six and it's been there since.

9:10

So that was kind of an FU to New York, right?

9:14

Like I wasn't having a paycheck.

9:16

Uh, I couldn't believe how expensive New York was without a paycheck.

9:17

And I was still like on the privilege side, right?

9:21

like I had had a good paycheck and um it probably had like a resume that if I really needed to I could probably go find a job but even still like New York was just unbelievably unaffordable.

9:28

So the the two premises that the night market the Queens market was founded upon was one represent as many New Yorkers through a sort of gross proxy but like country of origin as possible and two to impose a price gap to make it like necessarily or matter of fact the cheapest and most affordable place in New York City. >> Yeah.

9:50

I want to follow up on two things.

9:51

I You mentioned all of these other ideas you were going to do with somebody, but they got cold feet, right?

9:56

Like that's something that we notice a lot through our venture arm where we sort of specialize on preede.

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In other words, hey, you'd make a good founder uh to seed.

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And and yet the what what's really required is agency, right?

10:15

you you've got to actually roll up your sleeves and go do it.

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When I was listening to you, I was like, "Wow, that seems like a lot of people to opt out because of cold feet."

10:28

>> Obviously, you don't have cold feet.

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And what do you think like what do you think is was the separation?

10:34

>> I have the personality that like I always knew I was not going to be a lawyer uh at least for a long time.

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And you know, I have to take a little bit step back.

10:41

I I meet a lot of, you know, since the night market started, we've launched about 500 businesses in New York City, >> which is astounding.

10:48

I I think it's just like you should be incredibly deeply congratulated for that. >> Yeah.

10:54

But, you know, they're not all success stories, right?

10:56

There's a lot of people that are packed up and so like it's a big number, but you know, now Pigeon Hold is the kind of guy that knows how to spur entrepreneurship like very micro businesses, right?

11:04

Like we're not talking venture stuff.

11:06

Um, but I always tell people like one, you should never start a small business. Terrible idea. Like idiotic idea.

11:12

Uh, the percentages are terrible.

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Um, Yale law school has this new, I don't know, fairly new initiative called like the Chay Fellowship program.

11:21

Uh, where they try to incentivize, well, they try to tell Yale law students that you don't have to be a lawyer, you can go private and you know there are all sorts of different avenues and the world opens up when you go to Yale law school.

11:32

So they come every year to the night market now and I host them and sort of they ask me for my candidate advice.

11:36

I've usually had a few beers and I'm started saying this sort of off the cuff but I started to believe it more and more that normally I would say a person should not start a small business from the you know just the odds and like the the tax on your life and like how it up and can upend your life.

11:51

upend your life. Uh but I told the you know law students like you guys should take risks right you have what I had the benefit of was sort of a resume higher ability even if you know should hit the fan and you know the reason I was sort of like I thought the night market would

12:10

try it for a year and then I crash and burn I'd go do something else I might go like begging someone to hire me but like the truth is you know with that on my resume I probably could get hired so I told you know the Yale law students that they had the benefit of like a plan B, right? which most families don't like

12:23

right? which most families don't like most families that like you know start a dry cleaner or whatever it is like a bodega don't have a plan B and like if that fails their livelihoods are severely you know impacted the law students like you know once they get there they're in the sort of rarified air where they they have a lot of

12:40

options and I told them look you guys outside of being a lawyer if you want outside being a clerk if you want or going to private equity whatever you can all make lots of money but if you actually want you have the privilege of taking huge risks and not having it ultimately like permanently affect your sort of your livelihood, right? Like you

12:56

Like you can get just go do something else.

12:57

And so anyways, I don't know where where I got that to that tangent, but like that's how I I feel about like I think most people should not start small businesses.

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I think it's a losing proposition, but there are certain people in the world who, you know, can do it without so much of a risk.

13:11

>> So let's walk through two vendors, and you don't have to name them obviously.

13:15

>> Um they come to you, they're like they get that advice, right?

13:18

Hey, small businesses are are rough, but they persist, right?

13:25

>> What kind of guidance do you give them?

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And then walk me through one that did really well and then one that that didn't.

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>> If you can persist through so many nos and so many people telling you not to do it, like there's something to be said about that.

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Your odds of making it are probably, you know, incrementally higher than someone who just sort of, you know, didn't have to go through that gauntlet of nos.

13:43

of nos. So the night market is exceptional and like I don't mean like exceptional from value proposition just means it's like unique in that I've structured it in a way that even if you lost everything you invested uh in setting up your business and coming to

14:00

the night market it's you know maximum a grand two grand right >> um and so like there's no magic I think behind spurring like really micro businesses like just make it affordable to lose right like and then we've also like were popular enough I think at

14:14

least in terms of like visitorship that it's very unlikely you won't at least break even right so I always try to sort of level set like what I'm telling people not to start a business is like you can try the night market whatever like it cost you you know probably 500

14:29

bucks to 1,000 bucks to get in you lose that I don't I hope that doesn't affect your your livelihood but to like take on a lease is a completely different matter in New York City right so um so there's that like we are sort of artificial test beds incubator or whatever. What makes

14:42

What makes it, you know, success stories?

14:44

You know, I also think it's funny talking to, you know, successful investor because like, you know, I assume a lot of very perceptuous, but a lot of what like makes a successful investor in hindsight or in the records in history is like the number of zeros you've created, right?

15:02

Like or you have amass versus ours.

15:02

Like or you have amass versus ours. you know what makes for I'll give you one example like my one of my favorite vendors uh partly because she doesn't complain very much at all actually uh been with us from like day two I think

15:15

way back to 2015 her success for being at the night market is spending time with her sister and her kids and her husband and like previously her mother her parents under the the tent they don't do anything with food six days a week but on Saturday their success is

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just being able to spend family time together for like the eight hours of the night market plus the you know whatever time prep time before or breakdown uh and that is a motivation to be there beyond me like sort of that is the sort of things I

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like to harp on about like the queens or not harp on but things I like to sort of promote with the queens night market because that doesn't exist at any other event because at no other event in New York City food focused event do you have

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the luxury to do that like you if you're not making your money if you're not selling you're like losing your shirt right like uh but the night market is one such that like it has this aura of vendors come because for all sorts of reasons some of them so like that's one

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success story and I mean that very like sentimentally like that is just a success story you know we have another vendor who has now I don't know 12 shops in like new the northeast and like he's his desire is to take over the world and

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he seems to be like on his path to do so he's got business chops and he's good at marketing and all that stuff and he's gone on to do what he intended to do the difference there is like complete motivation inspir like aspirations what are your ambitions and uh So it's hard

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for me to categorize and bucket like create buckets out of these vendors because we've created a quasi artificial like planned economy kind of thing where you know success is not how much your sales are but whatever you want it to be. Um and we've created enough leeway

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Um and we've created enough leeway in terms of cushion and the price and the investment that you know it can be that that makes sense.

16:55

That's like super lovely.

16:57

>> So let's take our viewers and listeners let's walk into the night market. um at 400,000 square ft. >> It's pretty close.

17:06

Like when we flex our gates, it's pretty close to 300. It's definitely 300,000.

17:10

Sometimes close to 400,000 square feet. >> Okay.

17:13

So, let's walk let's walk through.

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You're going to be my tour guide. >> Sure.

17:17

So, you can enter the if we're being literal, you can enter through the north gate or the south gate.

17:21

Uh the north gate is mostly for people coming off the subways or parking lot.

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The parking fills up very quickly.

17:27

Uh, and the south gate is for most people sort of either cutting across the park, uh, Flushing Meadows or just coming up there locally.

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Uh, they're both pretty busy.

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Uh, and as soon as you walk in, you're immediately sort of immersed in a wave or sort of a sea of blue tents and orange tents. About 75 blue tents.

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Uh, each tent, each blue tent is a food tent and about 35 orange tents and each orange tent is a art merchandise.

17:54

And it takes, you know, that's overund5 110 vendors on any given night.

17:59

Uh it takes a while to sort of if you haven't been, it takes a while to orient yourself and, you know, to realize that there are like three alleyways, you know, pathways full of vendors.

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And so most people, you know, I've often heard they walk in and like it's not so big.

18:14

And then they realize that there's another turn and then there's another turn and there's another turn.

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They're like, oh my god, that's overwhelming.

18:19

On you'll see sort of smoke coming and mostly the skewer vendors have smoke like coming up the wazu.

18:24

They have charcoal which makes for a great picture but their neighbors are not particularly happy.

18:27

Um and you know you'll see you curate as I said a rough proxy for diversity if you can still use that word but by sort of country.

18:39

Um and we have a quota generally of no more than two representatives from a country in any given night.

18:45

And >> you mean you have like a hundred countries?

18:48

>> We've represented since we started we've represented like 103 countries through their food.

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And you know, we can talk about the curation a bit later if you want, but essentially it's the one parameter outside of the country quota is that you had to grow up, you have to sell what you grew up eating, >> which I think is really fascinating.

19:03

Um, but let's talk about it now.

19:06

Like let's talk about the curation now.

19:08

If you can only have two vendors from a particular country, right?

19:14

How do you adjudicate that?

19:16

How do you decide who those two vendors are going to be? >> It's tricky.

19:19

Um, it's trickier for some countries than others.

19:22

There's priority for people who have been there before and if I have a hundred applicants from Colombia.

19:28

Uh, it's just some sort of like is one grandfathered in because they've been there so long, you know, like there's a soft spot for people who came in 2015 because they took a huge risk on whatever the hell I was doing.

19:40

So, like anyone from 2015 kind of has a little bit of a easier path getting in.

19:46

Uh, and outside of that, it's like story slash, you know, what has New York not seen before?

19:51

So, the entire one of the entire point, one of the points of the Queens Night Market is can you tell stories?

19:57

Can you perpetuate traditions that are close to being lost?

19:59

that are close to being lost? And so some of that means, you know, if there's a dish that I've never heard of or, you know, most of New York has never heard of, uh, that either means it's not super popular in New York yet or anymore or like it's just such a small percentage of people that are practicing it or, you

20:18

know, perpetuating that tradition that like I would love to get it out there in the world and, you know, like maybe by in so doing there's, you know, an article written about it for one time and maybe someone thinks five minutes about it and you know like you know all these traditions are going to be something very different in you know 20 years time. So trying to preserve these

20:36

So trying to preserve these little nuggets of stories or traditions for just you know however temporal however temporally I can sort of do so.

20:45

So that's so that's just like it's just a weird mix of like my how I'm feeling that day and you know whatever it is and like and then there's the other side which is you know three years ago I think uh we got a application from someone from Papa New Guinea.

21:00

I was like I don't even know what to eat.

21:03

Don't even know what food they source but like you're in.

21:04

Like if you can make it work you're in because like she was they she was from there and like I was like that would be amazing.

21:11

We probably the only food festival in the US that has that like that that representation.

21:16

Turns out like we went through this whole thing.

21:18

I was like you know give me what do you normally eat?

21:21

What do you want to sell?

21:21

What are you passionate about?

21:22

passionate about? And then like you know after she was accepted she realized you couldn't source the ingredients right >> and so like sad story like but like so if you come like if you're coming one from a country again the story the narrative has to match up right like one thing the whole point of this you have

21:39

to sell what you grew up eating is just to avoid someone going to culinary school and figuring out something trendy or making up a new dish and sort of selling it and not for any reason like there are plenty of markets in New York City and across the US that do exactly that cater to exactly that kind of like Instagrammability and profitability. Um,

21:53

Um, that was never the point uh of the night market anyways.

21:58

>> So, they get in, right?

21:58

What are the most common problems that they come to you with?

22:03

Am I going to be right if I guess the $6 cap on the food?

22:08

>> Um, it's a it's a pretty mixed bag of what people encounter.

22:13

Um, some of it's marketing, you know.

22:15

So, I'll give you a story.

22:17

Um, we have I I don't know if we have a target demographic, but like the people that come to the night market that aren't just locals that like actually travel from like the other burrows or like the tourists are probably drawn because they'll pro they're looking for food that's they can't find elsewhere, whatnot.

22:31

I mean, outside of just the affordability part because I think that's important. I'm not delusional.

22:37

I think like that's the main reason we are like popular in the first place.

22:40

Uh but for the people who sort of make that extra track because you could go to the bodega across the street and presumably get a $6 sandwich or something like that.

22:46

But so for the people that make the track uh that's not convenient for I think they're there to eat you know try foods and like experience cultures and bridge across different horizons and uh cultures.

22:55

So we had for instance we had this one vendor who went through the business seminars uh and she served African food.

23:04

I can't remember the details.

23:07

Maybe it was West African or maybe it was Central African.

23:11

Just something that we hadn't had before. I was very excited.

23:11

I was like, you know, the the narrative matched and like super cool.

23:15

But she also had a restaurant in the Bronx and like lower Bronx and her restaurant in the Bronx, if you went to the if you saw her restaurant and hopefully there's enough restaurants I think like this in the Bronx that I'm not singling anyone out.

23:29

Um, but like essentially the awning at her restaurant says, you know, burgers, pizza, pasta, wings, Spanish food, whatever. Like the hodgepodge.

23:37

I could there's probably some markets where that makes sense is, you know, make a one-stop shop for anyone that comes.

23:42

But we had curated her because she had this amazing sort of African story that we hadn't seen before.

23:47

And but she came with the same signage that she her restaurant did, which was like and she was only selling the African food because that's all we curated.

23:53

But like the sign was just the hodgepodge of like stuff that like people are coming to the night market specifically to avoid, right?

24:00

Um and so that was just sort of like a lesson in you know marketing and uh you know and another time we had a vendor who I don't know if it's health code appropriate but you know she was doing okay.

24:10

Uh but then one day she decided to you know hang those roasted ducks that you see all in Chinatown and like from that day on for like the next 10 years she's just had a constant line like non-stop.

24:20

Uh, and that was also just a sort of marketing thing.

24:22

Um, so that's one is sort of just how do you present who who are the people coming?

24:29

But there are also days of the night market where it doesn't matter who you are, what you brought, you're going to have a line because there's just so many stalls that 20,000 people can go to, right?

24:38

Um, which is those are my favorite nights because the ones who are struggling or don't have the marketing chops or whatever, don't have the sophistication of they can still do well, right?

24:46

Like I remember last year uh towards the end we brought on a Kazak vendor and like it was literally a piece of paper that they held up and had like their son hold up with like handdrawn menu and like it was so busy though that they sold out.

25:01

Like normally you' be like oh my god they look like can't trust their food, can't trust their menu, can't trust anything about like it's so sketchy looking but like it was so busy and people were so hungry for food that like they sold out like that.

25:12

Um and they slightly improved over the year like over the next three weeks because it was towards the end of the season but like um there are some nights that like you can't fail right except for if you operationally fail right so there are some people that like their first night they see how busy it is they've come as visitors and you know

25:28

I'm very upfront I tell them exactly the stats like that that I know is like you know the average vendor sells 550 portions a night right huge variability but like that's where it is and like I'll tell you there are probably vendors that sell 100 a And there are some vendors that sell a thousand a night on average. But like that's where this and

25:43

But like that's where this and you know this is one of the things we're talking about the mindset of entrepreneurs.

25:49

There are entrepreneurs that start and like, well, if the average is 550, I'm definitely selling 2,000, right?

25:55

And so they're like, they just pack so much that like, you know, you there's not humanly possible to get through 2,000.

26:01

Like you can't even take 2001s in that amount of time or whatever it is, right?

26:04

Like um so that's like one thing like the mindset of like those are the you know, if I was investing, those are the like the the business people I would not invest in as entrepreneurs.

26:14

But there's also the other ones that like you know the benefit of having such a low vendor fee and in order to break even assuming you're hiring just you and your family or your son or whatever, right?

26:23

Like you need to sell 50 or 100 and so there are a lot of also like on the other end of the spectrum people like just easing their way in bring uh 200 portions and they're sell out in the first hour and they just have to sit there and wait.

26:35

Uh but then they get to explore and see what other people are doing.

26:38

But like you know just sort of here's the mean, here's the median and here's the variability. do what you want.

26:43

Uh but you know, I get, you know, I try to give them some common sense things about like, you know, imagine it takes your cash, you know, like your son 30 seconds to just make the change.

26:54

How does that affect, you know, whatever, like how does this affect your operational efficiency?

26:58

And imagine it actually takes you two minutes to fry XYZ versus like, you know, just try to talk people out of this like 2,000, you know, servings kind of like thing.

27:06

You know, I try to give a top 10 list of, you know, random advice to vendors at these seminars, like please like at least smile and make eye contact with people that walk past you, right?

27:18

Like you never like and there's so much, you know, like as a visitor like you have to make a guilty guilty feeling decision not to look at someone's stuff when they're like looking at you and making smiling at you.

27:30

U but it's amazing how many of these like small businesses just don't do that.

27:35

don't do that. they're looking down at their phone and like I get it like the conversion rate is small and like all that stuff but like if you're actually going to do it going to like going to do it make the effort for those whole eight hours and like you can be tired and your eyes can be like glaze over but like for

27:49

the majority of time try to like you know impress upon like and like that's something that like small things like that sort of I harp on but >> that has always fascinated me uh just some basics right when I was in Hong song, for example, there were these big groups led by a woman, almost always a woman >> of little kids. >> And I I'm a very naturally inquisitive

28:13

>> And I I'm a very naturally inquisitive person and I will talk to any stranger.

28:18

And so I walked right up and said, "What's going on?"

28:21

And she was really blunt and she was like, "All mainland Chinese."

28:27

And I went, "Okay, but" and she goes, "They send them here to learn manners." And I'm like, really?

28:34

And and so we kind of got into it.

28:37

And one of the things that she brought up first and foremost was when she gets them, they never look at her. They they dismiss her.

28:48

They they don't shake her hand.

28:51

Like these are just like really basic things to connect with another human being.

28:55

And if you're going to try to be an entrepreneur and you're not doing that, I remember one guy I used to work with.

29:02

Um, and he he was very analytical, right?

29:05

Which he was really good at.

29:05

Um, but I noticed when we would go and we were trying to raise money for a company, when we would go to meet prospective investors, if he was there ahead of me, he was always in the corner looking at his phone.

29:24

And I'm like, dude, come over and talk to these people.

29:27

I is m may is there a story where you get somebody who started out like that but then kind of grew to being a good entrepreneur.

29:41

>> A lot of them I mean like it's the learning curve there is incredibly steep.

29:45

Um, and the one thing, one of the things I talked about earlier, maybe I maybe that was with Nick.

29:50

Um, the camaraderie between the vendors is a sort of remarkable thing that I never would have predicted.

29:57

Maybe you could sort of work backwards and say, well, you know, everyone at these other markets and again, most of this was not planned, right?

30:03

And so most of it's just sort of retrospect conjecture about how something create happens.

30:08

>> Um, but at these other events, >> they're all like frenemies or like competing, right?

30:13

like it's just, you know, they want to be the person that makes the most money at the night market.

30:18

Like I I was just telling your colleague Nick that like they have like intergenerational cross-cultural dinner parties all the time. Like they're friends.

30:28

Um and like if you know we had a Persian lady who uh is on and off vendor, she usually comes by herself.

30:37

her vendor, her neighbors, whoever they end up being that week, often help her break down and load up her car, which is like just remarkable weird stuff.

30:42

Um, so if you are uh, you know, not not the greatest entrepreneur when you first get there, at least for the night market, like again, there's so many concepts of the night market, just would never be sustainable outside of the night market.

30:58

at for those eight hours on a Saturday, my guess is your those neighbor vendors are helping you along.

31:03

Like, oh, like, you know, here's tips of the trade.

31:06

Here's how I would do it.

31:06

Lighting, they always talk about lighting and how to engage, how to set up your stall.

31:09

So, you can like you can get by.

31:11

Um, and you know, my guess is if I'm not the one telling you, they're like them, which I try not to do.

31:17

Like once they start, like I try not to like interfere with what they do, but it's not that's not true with all the other the colleague vendors are very quick to sort of give them tip tips on like branding and setup and optimization.

31:28

So I don't know if we've like, you know, we had a lady who came out of business school, she would load her car and she used it for like operations training because she wanted to potentially break into the food industry.

31:41

She came out of a very stellar business school.

31:43

Just rent loaded up her car with as much as she could fit.

31:45

Like she, you know, very good planning.

31:47

She sort of knew the equipment, knew how much she could make, sold out every night.

31:51

And then she, you know, she used it as the first year.

31:53

I think she only came one year, but used it as a training ground.

31:56

And then launched a restaurant to like huge fanfare.

31:58

Like it became it was like the number one on a list for maybe like three or four years ago. Did great.

32:04

But then I from what I know, she got married and moved to Paris.

32:05

But for for that for that year, she like I mean she didn't know what she was doing.

32:09

I think the first time she ever sold a thing herself was at the night market, loaded up her cars to the brim, figured it out and then sort of parlayed that into a restaurant and you know, so that's you can use it for the night market is used for all sorts of reasons, but that's like probably one where they're, you know, they really used it and sort of took the skill set and sort of expanded on it.

32:30

and and how many people uh over the years um because you've also been you've got great call outs as best food in New York.

32:39

I've read a lot of the stuff written about it like >> are a lot of people using it as a training ground to go on to launch other things like a restaurant or in the case of the people selling merchandise a boutique. >> Sure. I mean I I don't know.

32:56

I mean, I tried to keep track, but the I anecdotally, I'd say the last official survey, which means like me digging into my brain to figure out and remember who came through, like maybe 30 or 40 restaurants came out and maybe like 10 or 20 retail shops came out of it.

33:17

>> So, okay, let's continue on our tour.

33:20

We're in We see that the they're colorcoded.

33:23

The people selling food are one color, merchandise another.

33:25

What sorts of merchandise would you find there? >> That used It's funny.

33:31

So, there hasn't been that much evolution in the night market for better or worse, but the curation of the the retail stuff and the merchandise has, you know, when I first started the night market, I really chased after this sort of cultural representation kind of thing.

33:46

And so, both through the food, so that part hasn't changed, but also through the art, I tried to get, you know, culturally representative, diverse art.

33:56

So that meant like African art and you know Ecuadorian art and you know Chinese art and all this sort of stuff.

34:01

On it completely aside I also tried to do that with entertainment.

34:04

You know we had all these sort of unique uh musicians and instruments that you'd never seen before.

34:10

And anyways on the food it caught on.

34:12

It made sense and became sort of sustainable in terms of at least the crowds and like you know as long as the vendors are selling enough like that's all that matters in terms of like the economics of it.

34:21

economics of it. it didn't really work at the retail side because one maybe the price point uh and two maybe no one's coming to buy African art like or how do you even get it home that kind of stuff so uh we sort of shifted more towards at least either the New York part is still the same so it's like locally designed

34:40

locally made or locally curated uh so we still avoid mass-production socks and that kind of stuff uh but it's become a little bit more what will people actually buy so you'll see a lot of you know there a couple tents and we still try to maintain I try to maintain a pretty considerate mix of stuff. So if

34:56

So if there's someone selling like anime stuff I won't have more than one out of the 35 or out more than two out of 35 crochet stuff and um paintings and stuff like that.

35:07

So like you'll see some toys, you'll see fair amount of art, ceramics, crochet, whatever like some novelty stuff. Um so yeah whatever.

35:16

But it like still insists that it's not just mass produc mass production stuff >> and and same rule apply for the vendors selling merchandise.

35:26

Let's say you're from Iceland.

35:30

Is the things that you're selling of Icelandic origin something they grew up with? >> Yeah.

35:36

Um less so like some like we still like to the extent that there are some things like that.

35:40

uh you know we have a a Japanese vendor who's been with us for a long long time was like you know very traditional Japanesey stuff and like you know nice chopsticks and that kind of stuff and but we also have like really young kids selling you know anime toys and plushies and stuff like that.

35:57

So yeah, we try to keep it mostly sort of culturally appropriate and representative, but also mostly just focused on that it's like locally the the the business owner is either locally designing it, locally producing it or locally curating it.

36:12

So it's a little bit led away from like sort of the cultural representation, but that's just that was an pure economic thing, right?

36:20

We could curate it with all the sort of, you know, esoteric art stuff, but the vendors just weren't.

36:28

>> And it it seems to me that you've allowed a lot of emergence, right?

36:30

It doesn't sound like other than your cap on pricing, you know, the you can't have any more than two representatives from a particular country.

36:40

Are there any other rules that you have enforce wave? >> Yeah.

36:48

Uh, not I mean not so much.

36:52

Um, you know, there are in the weeds stuff and for better or worse, you know, like no one no vendor is allowed to leave before we close, even if they sell out in the first hour.

37:00

Uh, they're not allowed to break down.

37:02

They uh they they can stay they can go explore the market.

37:06

They can go they can sit in their tent and just smile at people and tell people what they could have had.

37:10

Um when we first created the performer like when we were curating performances we have like three or four live performances a night uh I was very much about the sort of cultural stuff and like lots of dance troops and lots of you know esoteric very specific unique musical instruments and sometimes they would like fall on deaf ears or like it was hard to amp them up.

37:30

They were historically acoustic without you and so like there are a lot of times we curate these really cool things that no one had ever seen but no one cared or you couldn't hear it you know.

37:39

So we've definitely, you know, we still try to uh sprinkle those in as much as possible, try to do better in sort of amping them up and giving them a platform, but we've also just created a lot more like just local bands that people like, right? Energetic.

37:52

So on those two fronts, I would say, you know, I followed uh a little bit more what is appealing and engaging versus, you know, with a you heavy hand.

38:04

>> And and how are the entertainers doing the performances?

38:06

How are they compensated?

38:08

So for the first three, four years they weren't. They did it at pro bono.

38:12

Um and then I slowly and then honestly like you know my wife probably thinks I'm the worst human being ever because she's an artist.

38:19

Like she's probably like you know you underpay these people which is probably true. It's very true.

38:23

It is true but like you I just didn't have a budget.

38:25

Like this thing was run on a sho string for it still kind of is.

38:27

Uh so the first three or four years they just did a pro bono for the huge audience that they got and then you know these then I got a grant that I a small grant arts grant that I started divvying up and then when I either lost the patients or didn't have capacity to keep upping reupping or reapplying for the grants I just sort of made a small budget for it out of it.

38:48

made a small budget for it out of it. So we pay them you know uh disproportionate to their talent check in the other way but uh you know >> but uh can they also be like buskers and have an open >> they can't no they they also accept tips so some of them make very very good

39:05

money in tips like the super you know the same ones that would do really well on subway station do really well there in terms of tips like we still give we still give them cut them a small check on aarian but like some of them do really well >> and and you mentioned that the the uh enterprise itself is a bit still shoestringy. Yeah. So what what is your Yeah.

39:22

So what what is your business model?

39:27

>> So hopefully there's not too many business people listening to your podcast because it's terrible.

39:30

It's like the worst idea ever to be honest.

39:32

Again, like this is this is so much about my motivation doing it and like the idea that at least 11 years ago I thought I could fall back on something, right?

39:42

Like I thought uh even if I even if some of the partners in my law firm didn't like me, enough of them did that I could probably go back and like maybe even do relationship stuff, whatever.

39:51

Like you know, it's funny you mentioned your some of your your horses staying in the corner when they arrive before you.

39:56

Like I am totally that guy unless there's something I need to have done, right?

40:01

So like in a vacuum, if I'm not looking to fund raise or I'm not looking to smoo, like I'm the guy in the corner like pretending to look at his phone.

40:07

I'm not even looking at my phone.

40:08

I'm like pretending to look at my phone just so I don't make eye contact with anyone.

40:10

But if it's in a room like I I have to talk to these people and like there's a you know I I have an agenda then I'm out and smoozing and so anyways the motivation for this idea like I literally thought it I'd spend a year doing it. It would crash and burn.

40:25

I the question I started off with is why is there no night market in New York City and I thought after a year I would have answered that question and then I'd move to New Orleans.

40:32

So when I came out with the stupid idea I was like okay here's what I will do and here's how I force my own hand.

40:38

So a lot of this is creating a structure where I cannot deviate from it. Right?

40:42

So I created a structure I went out publicly.

40:45

I was like look this idea I have what I will do one is I will never profit from vendor fees which means as a sort of practical matter I'll figure out whatever my operating costs are and divide essentially divide that by the number of vendors for as long as this thing has legs like that's what that will always be the case.

40:59

Stupid idea right no room for profit period like from the day one.

41:03

Um, and I thought, you know, okay, well, if I'm so lucky and I like to my like this catches fire, like maybe I'll get some sponsors, maybe I'll like run a bar, whatever it is.

41:12

But like to start it in order to sort of create this structure where nothing costs more than $5.

41:19

The only way I can convince any vendor to do it because there was no, you know, there was no case study, right?

41:24

It was just like I had to convince vendors like it was worth it to sell things for $5 when they could go to any other event and sell it for 10 or 15.

41:30

15. Um so I was like look from day one I will never veer from the I'll never make a dollar from your vendor fees burned so much cash right like that idea because like I wasn't at capacity the first few years and like you know under like overestimating all sorts of things like a terrible entrepreneur does and so that was that was the first thing that was

41:49

like a terrible mistake terrible idea um and like so much so but it got tons of buzz right like there's one thing that like is super lucky with the night market has had a honeymoon with the media for 11 years now like we put something out and like I was talk I I was using this case uh someone asked me yeah we don't have

42:07

to talk about on the show but like you know I'm in constant like fundraising mode actually not constant like over the last two years I've been in fundraising mode trying to hit up foundations and philanthropists and someone asked me yesterday like you know what's your strategy for going after philanthropists

42:20

like haven't no success yet but like like what how do you get these meetings that you have and I was like you know what I don't know I usually cold email any email address I can find and what often happens in these meetings I get is that the person who receives it has been to the night market and they're like, I love the night market. It's the

42:36

It's the cool thing ever.

42:37

Let me see if I can get some people to look at it.

42:39

And that's the same thing that happens in city hall or like you know any company like the difference between the people who have been and haven't been is really just like oh my god let me do what I can.

42:47

So the same the reason I brought that up is with reporters like every reporter has been trying so hard to get the night market like headlines or like good reviews or whatever they do because they like this is how they choose to spend their Saturday nights.

43:03

Uh, and I in year two or year one, I remember talking to a reporter and it was the exact same time as Anthony Bourdain um was trying to create his Bourdain Hall and a a reporter told me like two press releases hit her desk that morning, one from Anthony Bourdain and mine.

43:20

And she was like, I wanted to write about yours, but then my editor made me write about the other one.

43:26

So I like convinced the editor that I could write about both.

43:29

I think in year three, we finally got to like enough capacity with vendors and so it broke even and then like they got the okay to start a bar and then you know it was kind of sort of humming along like the entire time like it wasn't until year nine that I had a employee hummed along till the pandemic.

43:48

Uh and then that's when sort of I feel like at least anecdotally it may not actually be true in retrospect and if you ran the data but that's when like inflation started to like really test the $6 limit that we had.

44:00

So then I started freaking out about the $6 price cap.

44:02

I was like, I do, you know, at some point the economics are such that selling something for $6 is a losing proposition.

44:08

And so out of the pandemic, uh, not to name drop, just to name drop or sort of give props, but like, you know, someone approached me and said, uh, would you like a big bank sponsor?

44:16

I was like, of course, like of course I would.

44:19

So, Citizens Bank came in, they were just broke into New York City, uh, and they were looking for things to sort of support and their outside, someone from their outside marketing agency was like, you should do the night market.

44:29

Like, it's the coolest thing ever.

44:29

So, that was three years ago.

44:30

And my deal with them is basically I want you guys to pay down half of the vendor fee.

44:38

I mean I tried to get them to pay the entire thing like but you know they agreed to pay down half the vendor fee.

44:42

So that you know took you know the base vendor fee from maybe like 200 bucks down to 100 bucks which I could justify was like back of the envelope like almost accounted for the inflation for you know like the the cost inflation both between labor and uh food cost.

44:57

And so that happened for two years.

44:59

We were like happy as a clam. But it's a tricky thing.

45:01

Um, you know, I'm not the night market won't go away if I'm not able to raise a fund, right?

45:06

But it the the economics for the vendors is such that like the price gap does have to be adjusted, which I am just have a personal obsession with keeping as long as humanly possible the $6 price gap and as long as I can make it worthwhile for the vendors, I will do everything in my power to keep it there.

45:22

So anyway, terrible business model at the end of the day. Terrible business model.

45:25

Um, so much so that I didn't have like a regular employee until two two years ago. >> Wow.

45:32

Um, of course the Costco uh hot dog >> is very very famous >> because they lose tons of money on it, but that certainty that you're going to be able to go to Costco, eat, and the apparently the hot dogs are pretty good.

45:51

Um and and so I I could see why even though it might seem irrational, I can see why 80% would vote no, keep it. >> Yeah.

46:02

>> Because that's the draw, right?

46:02

People know that they can go and get great food at a reasonable price. Um Yeah.

46:07

at a reasonable price. Um Yeah. And obviously if inflation and everything else then then you're a bit So for me it's not it's so much about the whole genesis of a lot of the and this is part probably a part I didn't speak too much about um after being a lawyer I was traveling around a bit trying to figure out what I wanted to do with my

46:27

life and I'm always amazed outside of like maybe Japan and you know Western Europe like going to these markets what a dollar a US dollar will do for you at a market right like I remember two of the best things I've ever eaten in my life cost a dollar like one was a ceviche in Peru and one was like two tacos in Mexico, like deep in Mexico for a dollar. Like unreal, like unfair to be

46:47

Like unreal, like unfair to be honest. Like completely unfair.

46:50

Um, so the genesis of $5 price gap when I was no longer employed in New York City was like a dollar is like inane.

46:56

But like what if you could take a $5 bill, anyone in New York City could take a $5 bill and get something that anything they wanted at any stall, period.

47:06

So last year I had uh no names but I was talking to this billionaire philanthropist and some people had like lined up a direct meeting with this person. I was super excited.

47:17

I was like oh my god this is this it? Is this it?

47:18

Um and so we sat down and this person said everyone told me I need to meet you. What what are you doing? What do I have to offer?

47:25

Um and I was like here's the night market blah blah blah and here's a $6 price cap. And she said stop. That's your problem.

47:33

It should be $10 price cap. I was like, "No, no, no. It's the exact opposite.

47:38

Like, I I'm trying to" And she's like, "No, no, no.

47:39

Who in New York City cannot afford $10."

47:42

And I was like, "Ask the like 7 million New Yorkers for which that's like seriously like it was it was a terrible thing."

47:51

And so, um, our surrounding neighborhood is not affluent, right?

47:53

Like, and so like for a family of four, you know, I may be saving them 20 bucks a night out, which is not not something to bat an eye at.

48:03

you know, it falls a lot on deaf ears like because people like don't get it because most of the people I'm trying to fund raise from the the difference between the dollar doesn't make it right.

48:12

It doesn't doesn't register.

48:12

It can't possibly it's like a penny to them. Uh which no longer is.

48:15

So like the the night market doesn't go bust if I don't raise the money.

48:19

Uh you know at some point yes in the next few years the price gap will go up no matter what unless there's deflation which seems not likely.

48:27

Um, so it's just a matter of like so when I'm pitching people, uh, it's this weird like pitching the same people for whom that dollar doesn't matter is tricky.

48:36

But also like you know it's hard to pitch a single like the one thing that people in Queens tell me and like all institutions like you've put Queens on the map in a way that no one else like Queens has the Mets in the US in the US Open and that's pretty much it.

48:50

And you know, you were talking about some of the accolades which to me are pretty bond like crazy in 10 years.

48:54

You know, like last year Lonely Planet and the Financial Times listed us as a top 10 market in the entire world. >> Yeah.

49:03

>> Which, you know, you're competing with markets with hundreds if not thousands of years of history.

49:07

And in like 11 years, somehow we've sort of broken into this like crazy list.

49:11

And so like we're getting New York City accolades.

49:13

Again, this is not I'm not like trying to pat myself on the back, but like trying to get into like how do you sell this thing to someone like we've gotten New York City accolades where into lists that, you know, only, you know, Paris and Marrakesh and, you know, Hong Kong have been on this list for all of a sudden, you know, Queen, not only New York City, Queens has this sort of thing. So, I don't know.

49:34

So there's this, you know, there's so many angles and then there's just such the other thing you should people will notice when they come to the night market, I think, is that there's just like this calm joy that like radiates over the entire event.

49:46

And I I you know, I could speculate all sorts of reasons why that might be.

49:50

And I think affordability is probably a big one.

49:52

Um, but it's just like the biggest mass of New Yorkers happy, which is just a weird thing to like see in general, right?

50:03

Like New Yorkers are always koginly and like bitter and hustling or whatever, but like for eight hours a week like they are just in perfect harmony and they're specifically to sort of you know some like you know for some to learn from their neighbors and sort of eat food that they haven't had cross cultural some of them they just want to like find find a place to sit and drink and eat and find whatever but like you

50:24

know there's something I don't want to call moving but sort of like deeply satisi satisfying about like you know Saturdays in at the Queens market Um, and so much so, uh, what baffles me more than, you know, all these like accolades that we've sort of gotten is that probably once a week maybe, uh, on average, someone reaches out either social media or like finds my email address, which is easy to guess. It's

50:49

It's like John at whatever, and says like full stop, Queens Night Market is the best part about New York City.

50:54

Like to me that is just probably inaccurate but like just crazy that someone would say that right like there's the Met there's like Statue of Liberty.

51:03

There's so much amazing in New York City that anyone would bother to write me personally and say like you know you've created my favorite thing or like my family's favorite thing is just beyond me.

51:15

Um, so you know, I'm always, you know, trying to get myself out of running the Queens Knight market because it's taxing and terrible idea and all sorts of things, but like like it is like hard to walk away from something people think so care so deeply about.

51:31

Um, you know, that like the volunteering, right?

51:32

The idea that someone volunteers, you're not a museum, we're not like a, you know, a vet, a veterinarian, like but people are still asking to volunteer is super super weird to me.

51:42

as the doors open, right?

51:45

Like what what does the clientele look like?

51:49

>> I always say a cross-section of New York City, right?

51:51

Like and that's the one thing people I think notice and uh you know I think New York Magazine once said like it's the New Yorkest New Yorkiest of New York festivals, right?

52:00

Like it is uh we I mean it's been many years since we did a survey, but uh a very like impromptu survey.

52:07

It was back then it was 30% Asian, 30% Latin, 30% Caucasian, 10% black, >> which is, you know, almost the exact breakdown of New York City, right? And it was amazing.

52:20

Like I'm like, well, that's if if I had to sort of on paper create an event for New York City, like that's exactly a demographic I would have picked.

52:28

And so like that's that's how it happens.

52:30

how it happens. And you know like in terms of personal anecdotes uh or sort of class of anecdotes is there's often you know there's so many tiny neighborhoods in Queens and New York City for that matter um that often there these enclaves where grandparents will never step foot outside these enclaves

52:48

right and so what often I don't know how often I'm like probably overestimating by far but you know what happens is that these these grandkids take force their grandparents to come to the night market and they're like no no no don't want to go don't want to go there's nothing I can And the kids like, "No, no, no. I guarantee you you'll find

53:02

I guarantee you you'll find at least something that will remind you of home."

53:05

Whether it's like your neighboring country, neighboring country of origin or whatever it is, like you'll go and you'll find something and you'll be comfortable.

53:11

And then like once they have that, they're like, "Oh, this was a good version.

53:15

This was a terrible version, whatever."

53:16

And like the grandkids proceed to like push the envelope and sort of like, "Well, now that you try that, why don't you try this? Why don't you try that?"

53:21

Like get them outside of the comfort zone.

53:23

And like happens all the time, you know, overestimating, I'm sure, but happens a lot.

53:29

Uh, and that's like the great sort of the point the entire point of the night market.

53:34

It was like that kind of like exploration and sort of like and then you know the the grandparents are out get to like mingle with New Yorkers that they generally wouldn't see like ever. Um, >> yeah.

53:44

I mean my my own experience I haven't been yet.

53:46

I will be there for sure.

53:48

Um, but I've been to night markets in Marrakesh, in Cambodia, in Hong Kong, in Lao. Uh, they're really fun. >> They're fun.

53:58

And like I remember the first one I went to was actually in Marrakesh and I was like, "Wow, this is like just a really really good time."

54:09

>> I are there are there opportunities kind of back to sponsorship?

54:12

And by the way, like the billionaire who doesn't understand that >> the difference between $6 and $10, >> like that's up. >> Like come on.

54:20

I mean, yeah, it's a rarified bubble and I get that.

54:24

But you you would think that they could at least think and extrapolate theoretically that that for a lot of people that's a lot of money.

54:35

I mean honestly I think it's one of the big problems of New York right now is it's priced out like everybody except the rich and that is not a good thing to happen.

54:45

Um and and so that's why I'm enthusiastic about things like the night market, right?

54:51

Um, but like that you've put Queens and New York on the map with that.

54:58

That's also kind of extraordinary to me, right?

55:02

And and the other thing I love about it is if you had come in with some kind of this is the way it's going to be with some kind of topdown, you know, there's got to be this number of these people, this number, right?

55:18

like it would have not worked >> and because you let it evolve and the friendships all that kind of stuff.

55:25

I think one thing that people really do crave and one trend we're seeing is just connection with other human beings and like this is the perfect stage for that to happen.

55:38

Um what's the turnover in vendors like?

55:41

Do you do you get a lot of new people or get a lot of stalwarts who are always there?

55:48

We try I mean it depends on the year.

55:51

I think it it tracks in a weird I'm not clever enough to sort of nor do I have enough time to think about like how it tracks but like uh last year we actually had the least amount of turnover.

56:01

I was surprised like I aspire for like 50% or more turnover and you know I hopefully these guys have found the 50% that turn over that I hope turn over have found better things to do or like you know bigger profit margins elsewhere.

56:16

Um, but last year was a weird one.

56:19

And I I think it maybe economic uncertainty or like more than like 70% of our vendors reapply.

56:26

Um, which is was exceptional.

56:30

And so we had a really hard time trying to figure out how to like create turnover without being an saying like, you know, you're done.

56:35

Um, and so it really depends on the year.

56:38

Uh I mean there are some years where you know maybe there are a lot of food festivals and they all decided to go to a you know more profitable one I don't know and like the turnover is much more natural and like closer to where I would like it to be just to keep things fresh and um but last year was a weird tricky one.

56:56

So we had to like you know we do silly things like okay well for the ones on the fence well like can will you be willing to split dates with another returning vendor just so we could create an extra 10 for new ones and um so it really depends but somewhere you know if if I in a vacuum I'd love for there to be about 50% turnover or so >> and the the intent there being just giving additional opportunities to to new people.

57:24

Yeah, I you know I 10 years 15 years down the road it won't happen as a practical matter but like I would love to have a tent for every sort of country of origin represented in New York City.

57:35

York City. Like that's always been the ideal and that's why I mean again that's the only reason we sort of count country flags right otherwise like you know China has like 10 million cuisines and like you know so does every country has so many nuances so like it's such a terrible I mean you know terrible proxy

57:51

for how to count diversity or storytelling but it's the only one like I can otherwise you're caught in a sort of non-stop trying to figure out the number of regions you've represented so um you know creating spaces for these you know, vendors and countries whose stories haven't been told or at least featured in >> on the on the China question. Um, are

58:10

Um, are they serving American Chinese or are they serving real Chinese?

58:16

they serving real Chinese? the thing the this is the nuance u that I've the workaround right there's when I started the night I market even still there's persistent question there people like to uh call I think I wrote a piece on this for the University of Michigan alumni

58:34

maybe I think I think I did uh they often use a phrase or adjective authentic right um and a lot of people who describe New York with the best intent or describe the Queens night market with the best intentions always call it like authentic authentically New York or authentic vendors or whatever it is. And I'm always like I don't I would

58:49

And I'm always like I don't I would never choose to use the word authentic because to me it it means like it's only has a definition when you're talking about inauthentic, right?

58:59

And like inauthentic means some sort of like mental state where you're trying to dupe someone or you're trying to like pass something off as something else, >> which I'm not a judge of that.

59:08

I don't know who's could be a real judge of that.

59:11

Um and so what I the reason it got formulated as you have to cook something you grew up with like if you grew up with it it has a tradition right like whether it's only within your lifetime within your family or ideally or maybe in other word like in other ways it's like it might reflect a tra a tra tradition passed down from grandparents great-grandparents that kind of stuff.

59:34

I don't know and I don't care as long as you it is a tradition in your family and like you can extrapolate up or sort of work up the ladder as far as you can doesn't matter to me like but like if you grew up eating it at least has I can at least rest assure that it has some tradition in your family and the rest like you know if it happens to reflect you know a thousand years worth of traditions awesome if it doesn't so be it.

59:58

Um, and a case in point there, right?

1:00:00

You know, how it worked out in practical matters.

1:00:02

Um, yeah, this year we, uh, for better or worse, uh, featured a pizza bagel vendor, right?

1:00:09

Very American, obviously, Americana, but sure.

1:00:14

Like, I grew up eating pizza bagels, right?

1:00:16

Like has nothing to do with my whatever Asian heritage I have or nor much to do with my like being born in Texas or any of that stuff, but I did eat pizza bagels like up the wazoo. and so did this guy.

1:00:26

And so who am I to say like that is not important like culturally or you know tradition like it fits every like narrative sort of specific uh curatorial parameter that we have.

1:00:39

So I was like sure you can do it like we we didn't have like that many American we didn't have our we didn't hit our quot of American vendors and so they again they were a huge success.

1:00:48

Now, someone might look at it and be like, "Oh, that's totally like not up your curatorial alley, right?"

1:00:53

Like, but in terms of like the letter of the law, it was exactly the kind of thing we should be like I'd curate, right?

1:00:58

Like, you convinced me that you grew up eating it and period, right?

1:01:02

And so, you know, but it skirts a lot of tricky questions about authentic, inauthentic.

1:01:08

So, we So, the reason it came up you question is we've had a fair number of like Latin Chinese cuisine, right?

1:01:15

There's a lot of Chinese cuisine in South America and a lot of these families have grown up eating it and so like I you know I don't use the word fusion or inauthentic or you know whatever like if they grew up eating it passes muster to me.

1:01:27

So we end up with probably some versions of you know like if a kid grew up eating you know like certain kind of rolls a certain way like so be it right. >> Yeah.

1:01:39

um doesn't quite answer your question, but it's kind of like whatever anyone grew up eating and have has a passion for.

1:01:45

>> And and then how do you deal with what I have to suspect is a lot of health code, red tape, all of that. >> Yeah.

1:01:53

It's, you know, our landlord has a private operating agreement.

1:01:56

They were built for the World's Fair, you know, hall science.

1:01:59

Um so our direct contract is with this museum who gets to sort of oversee their own thing.

1:02:05

If we had to sign a contract with parks, there's so like the bureaucratic headache and the the costs balloon like it wouldn't exist.

1:02:15

So So also we are public land but like privately operated.

1:02:19

So we don't have to do like we don't have to seek the same permits that someone on the street does.

1:02:26

street does. uh because we're quasi private property and like um so we skirt that one and then in so doing like the health department has a whole set of codes for pop-ups which are you know for better or worse a little bit more lenient in terms of like how the kind of uh infrastructure you need and so we

1:02:48

luckily fall into sort of all these more convenient buckets or exceptions of rules and so like I mean we still enforce all the same permit like the required permits and the safety and all that stuff, but like it just so happens that they're a little bit less ownorous u because of all these circumstances. >> Yeah. I mean, uh right out here there's >> Yeah.

1:03:03

I mean, uh right out here there's the farmers market and again me being me, I would go and just drill these people with questions because I was trying to figure it out, right?

1:03:12

Like how are you there was the same guy for years and years and years and like I'm like how are you making money and because I'm fascinated by that, right?

1:03:24

And so like walk me through your day.

1:03:26

How when do you leave upstate New York to get here?

1:03:31

And it's like at insane times, >> but when when they walk me through the whole thing, I'm like, "Okay, you you actually are making money despite all of the particular things going on."

1:03:44

>> Very different for a farmers market though because I don't see that as much of a launching pad like you want to start a new restaurant, you want to do that.

1:03:52

Whereas your night market seems like the ideal environment if you want to test out uh you know a particular food or a particular style >> as you mentioned earlier like it's not going to break you.

1:04:06

>> Um and and so what do you see for like the next five years just banging along or >> I do not know.

1:04:15

Um, I generally don't plan more than a year in advance because I'm constantly thinking this will be the last year I do it.

1:04:22

Uh, never I've been wrong 10 years now in a row.

1:04:25

So, it's a little bit of the same.

1:04:27

Uh, someone asked me the yes, no, no, someone asked me two three days ago, uh, what would you change about the night market if you could go back in time?

1:04:36

And I didn't expect the question.

1:04:39

So, I said, you know, I I would have had someone else start it.

1:04:47

Um because I do think it should exist.

1:04:50

Like I think the concept it should like is good solid.

1:04:52

Again, the business model is admittedly the worst thing in the world.

1:04:56

Um but it's got you know so many New Yorkers have come to love it.

1:04:59

So many entrepreneurs have used like some of them have used it as a sort of important income supplement or exclusive income.

1:05:05

But like would I think 11 years I'd still be doing it.

1:05:08

Like I didn't think I'd be doing it more than one year.

1:05:10

Um, and you know, that's also why I've been, I think, so transparent about everything about the night market, right?

1:05:17

Like I remember year two, the the Wall Street Journal did a profile and they asked me all these questions about like financing and stuff and I was like, oh, here's how much money I lost.

1:05:25

Here's how much money I raised and like blah blah blah.

1:05:28

And the article came out and was like, "This is how much my money he lost.

1:05:31

This is how much money he raised."

1:05:32

And everyone's like, "Why the do you tell him that?"

1:05:33

I was like, "Was I not supposed to? Oh my god." Like I have no idea.

1:05:36

Like so apparently you're supposed to hide your finances from the Wall Street Journal, but like I was like, "Here it is."

1:05:39

Um, and so like I've, you know, been super transparent about like the curation.

1:05:44

There's no secret sauce of anything I've done.

1:05:45

And that was like it goes back to like did I I want I needed to do something where I didn't didn't depend on specialized skills, right?

1:05:52

Didn't depend on coding or sort of specialized knowledge or language skills.

1:05:55

Uh, so this is what I came up with and now I remember why I was talking about the honeymoon with um the media the last so two or three years after we launched or like maybe even sooner than that. Uh, we got tons of buzz. People loved it. uh the idea anyways.

1:06:10

And so for a time in my life, I was constantly fielding requests from different countries and different cities and different states asking me if I would come try to replicate what I was doing.

1:06:21

Um and like I I haven't counted for like eight or nine years, but like at some point it was like 12 or 15 countries like you know like France, Russia, Australia were like can you come?

1:06:32

And I was like no it's on Saturday I can't come.

1:06:34

Um, but like I was like, but I will tell you how to do it for better or worse.

1:06:40

Like if you can't find an idiotic guy who wants to like take on three jobs himself and like like that because that's how like that's the reason the $6 price gap is there, right?

1:06:49

Like is like presumably I'm doing a couple people's jobs and and have sort of internalized as many expenses as possible.

1:06:56

Um, but like look, I will sit down with anyone and tell them how I've done it and like be as candid as possible and like if So anyways, for a while, for a couple years, there were not only night markets popping up left and right because everyone thought that was what made it popular and then also all these events were trying to impose their own price gaps on their own vendors and like all of those price caps have like since disappeared, right?

1:07:22

Like it was a big thing for a couple years and everyone was like, "Oh, look at our price gap. Look at our price gap."

1:07:26

and they've all let go of it and then I mean the night markets thing still go strong.

1:07:28

I mean I think I would guesstimate that there's since the Queens night market been maybe a thousand night markets that have started.

1:07:37

Like some of them are just like fly by night, you know, city has whatever.

1:07:40

Um but my my wife my in-laws have a a little shack on the in France on the on the coast and uh the Atlantic coast called Normier like famous for sea salt.

1:07:55

Anyway, tiny tiny tiny like you know couple thousand people maybe and like they they have a night market now and like my my mother-in-law was like look what you did.

1:08:03

You started a like night market in this tiny little seaside like town that like for no reason.

1:08:08

Um, so anyways, like, uh, but so basically the point I think was like transparency.

1:08:15

Like I, you know, I've never turned down like a meeting to tell people how I did it and like I'm usually probably overly candid in terms of like how bad it is, but like there's no secret sauce and you just have to remain committed to XYZ.

1:08:25

So I think so this all goes back to like, you know, how do I envision five years from now?

1:08:29

And I honestly don't and can't.

1:08:31

honestly don't and can't. And uh you know people offered to buy it but I know that it would change so much about it and you know like one one of them was like a sort of sports marketing company and you know it would turn into like you know I don't know some sort of expensive corporate thing and so I know it's it's

1:08:48

tricky like you know I've been very I think transparent about my struggles with do I stay in do I get out and um I don't know the answer to that like I'm still always looking for like someone to say like I will take the race from you so much so like there was a three years ago So I offered to sell it to the park or actually I offered to give it to the parks department. So my if you go back

1:09:05

So my if you go back to 2014 when I sort of put out the first feelers and stuff about this.

1:09:10

It was envisioned under the Unisphere, right?

1:09:14

Like I still think that it's like an iconic spot would sort of bring so much together.

1:09:17

Uh it has a space for it.

1:09:17

Um but that is like bureaucrat central, right?

1:09:23

Like the most iconic space in Queens is dead center of the like Queens's flagship park. All sorts of issues.

1:09:29

But and like some of it was like corporate like commercializing issues like they were fearful that I was like commercializing the parks you know whatever.

1:09:38

So I was like look if that's really your your concern I will sell the entire project to you for a dollar.

1:09:42

I will teach you to run it for two years.

1:09:45

You actually get to internalize many more costs than I do because you already have the existing stamp.

1:09:49

Anyways it's like crickets like complete crickets.

1:09:53

But like, you know, I'm so like I just use as like the case of point that, you know, I'm not so beholden to it.

1:09:58

Like I don't think like I'm happy for it to exist outside of me, right?

1:10:01

It's not my like I don't think I'm the only one that can run it.

1:10:04

I don't think I have any specialized skills or knowledge about it.

1:10:07

Like I would love to see it exist.

1:10:09

Uh and I would love to not be the one doing it dayto-day to be honest.

1:10:10

It it also does seem to me though as you mentioned the other places with the explosion of night markets the I think one of the reasons it's so incredibly successful is because of the breakdown of New York right like I've always thought of New York as a collection of you know neighborhoods really and you can be walking around and two blocks everything changes.

1:10:36

Um, and so the the that spirit of New York is somewhat unique um around the world.

1:10:44

Um, but the I think that's wild that you offered to sell it to them for a dollar and and just crickets. >> Yeah. I mean, yeah. >> But hang on.

1:10:56

Doesn't New York like realize all of the goodwill that you are building for Queens and the entire city, right? like that.

1:11:06

There should be a value to that.

1:11:11

>> They're just being politicians about it. >> Yeah.

1:11:13

I mean, it probably, you know, like they're only thinking, you know, in their administration, right?

1:11:17

Like, so it's tricky and, you know, I still think it's a good idea and if they ever wanted to approach that topic, I would totally do it.

1:11:23

I was like, look, I will spend two years teaching you how to do it.

1:11:24

And then, like, you could have the coolest thing like >> I I was trying to think of cool things parks have done, right?

1:11:31

And so, you know, just not a park connoisseur, but like, you know, in Hot Springs, Arkansas, the parks has like, you know, beer made from the Hot Springs water.

1:11:40

I think that's kind of a cool partnership and like it's cool.

1:11:43

And, uh, like there are a lot of thing and like, you know, >> hopefully no one does this without cutting me in, but like, you know, I had this idea.

1:11:52

>> Friend of mine wanted to start a a food company where they just use sort of foraged goods.

1:11:56

And I was like, you know, the parks department should get behind that and you could forge like all your stuff and like parks department can't use certain fertilizers and whatever.

1:12:03

You can almost call it organic.

1:12:03

And I was like like you know and they like also crickets.

1:12:07

I was like you know like that's when I used this case of point with hot springs.

1:12:11

I was like look they do it.

1:12:13

They have these cool partnerships like parks have these sort of cool partnerships that if you sort of weren't so riskaverse and heard it out like yeah what you could get to know it that's fine but like at least hear it out but none of that.

1:12:24

So, like if it if it comes to pass, right, that somebody either buys it or takes it over, still New Orleans. >> No.

1:12:35

So, I have, you know, I have a kid on the way in two to three weeks. Congratulations.

1:12:38

I think um and one of the things the one thing I will never live down is like I promised myself and my wife first first myself before I ever met wife that I would never raise a kid in New York City.

1:12:51

Uh, and then when I met her, like of course we'll never raise a kid in New York City.

1:12:55

Uh, and now like working on like kid 2 is coming up and we're still in New York City.

1:12:59

And one thing I didn't expect that has come out of the night market outside like the night like again didn't think it was going to last more than a year.

1:13:06

Um, is how all of a sudden it's like my professional life is very tied to New York City.

1:13:13

Like not just the night market, but like you know now I sit on the board of NYC tourism which is like the official marketing arm.

1:13:18

I sit on a couple other boards. I'll volunteer.

1:13:21

Don't make any money out of it.

1:13:22

Uh but all of a sudden like I don't get much of a say about where New York City goes, but like very involved in a way like you know that I never thought like I would be.

1:13:32

And now all of a sudden I care even more about New York than I did before. Right.

1:13:36

So now like like for 11 years, you know, I had a New York business, but all of a sudden like it's put me in a place that's forced me to care even more about it being on these like you having these different roles uh that directly impact New York City either like from a tourist perspective or hospitality perspective.

1:13:52

And so now I don't I don't know.

1:13:55

I I'd still I still dream about my kids soon to be plural uh playing in a street with no cars.

1:14:04

Like because that's that was my like formative years is like you know I always use I the last time you watch Wayne's World >> great movie.

1:14:12

>> So like there's a scene near the beginning where they're like yeah and one car stop and they stop for like two seconds and they come back.

1:14:17

That was my childhood like like not exactly like that.

1:14:22

>> And I I liked my childhood like I I thought it was good.

1:14:24

Skid my knee enough times broke enough bones like just the amount just the right amount.

1:14:28

And like New York, I was like, "Oh my god, the New Yorkers are weird and like they're like so eccentric and like don't have a street smart about them."

1:14:34

And so like I don't know.

1:14:36

Hopefully my opinion will change over the course of the my kids' childhoods, but uh so yeah, I I thought for sure I'd have long since left, but you know.

1:14:46

>> Well, New York gets into your blood, I think. Right. >> It does.

1:14:48

No, it's it's intoxicating in all sorts of ways. For sure.

1:14:50

all sorts of ways. For sure. like uh so now you know whereas I was convinced I would never raise a family in New York City now I'm like trying to figure out would I be okay spending six weeks away six months away I don't know like uh but

1:15:06

I love New York but I it does make me fear like again I've never feared for New York City in my life in terms of like a city or people or whatever but I am like you know the one thing about the night market I always say is like we've grown into our relevance every year that goes by, right? The affordability

1:15:21

The affordability becomes somehow keeps topping the charts in a weird way, but like I've actually never my nearly 20 years in New York now, like haven't ever felt it like I feel like it is now.

1:15:32

Like, and you you probably have a much better perspective on that, but um you it feels like you can see the divides like the sort of chasms opening up as you like walk through New York City on a daily basis in terms of like affordabilities, the halves and have nots.

1:15:45

Uh, and that's kind of frightening to me like outside of politics, outside of all that stuff.

1:15:50

Like it feels like there is a growing gap between those who can be here and those who can't.

1:15:56

And that is like all of a sudden scaring me in a way that like I'd never felt that before. >> Yeah, it sucks.

1:16:00

And uh, you know, it's so funny because you see uh what always happens, right?

1:16:07

So Manhattan becomes unaffordable and then all of a sudden Brooklyn becomes unaffordable and then Queens >> and one day Staten Island.

1:16:21

>> Yeah, Staten Island will will be the last standing.

1:16:27

>> Well, this has been absolutely fascinating, John.

1:16:29

Uh I look forward to coming.

1:16:32

I'm actually really excited about coming. So excited to have you.

1:16:35

Uh, I mentioned to you before we started to record, my wife is a street photographer of some note and when I told her about it, she's like, "How cool is that?"

1:16:44

And that both of us had not seen it.

1:16:47

I feel I'm a bit embarrassed.

1:16:51

>> It's like in terms of I'm never fearful for how many people come to Night Market because there's probably legit four or five million New Yorkers who still never heard of it, which is great.

1:17:02

like in terms of an audience like that's enough for another decade like in terms of novel.

1:17:08

>> Well, we we have a an odd last question for all of our guests and and it is this.

1:17:12

We we're going to wave a magic wand and we're going to make you the emperor of the world. You can't kill anyone.

1:17:20

You can't put anyone in a re-education camp.

1:17:22

But what you can do is we're gonna hand you a magical microphone and you could say two things into it that everybody on the planet whenever their next morning is is going to wake up and the two things that you said they're going to think were their ideas and they're going to go further.

1:17:40

They're going to say, "You know what?

1:17:43

Unlike all those other great ideas that I got in the shower when I first woke up, but I never acted on them.

1:17:47

I'm actually going to act on these two ideas starting today.

1:17:54

>> The first one I'd probably say is like be nice.

1:17:58

>> I'm like I don't know if it's because I'm kind of a Southerner at heart, but like etiquette and manners we talked about earlier is like super important to me and like I feel like it's a dying thing, especially in New York City.

1:18:09

And like I'm not sure New York City ever had it, but like it feels worse these days.

1:18:14

And I and I sort of I think I mean that in all sorts of ways.

1:18:16

Like I I I reluctantly have a car in New York City and like you know double parking is just like a terrible thing like everywhere.

1:18:23

Anyway, I I think one is be nice like in every aspect of the day like whether it's driving or door holding or saying thank you or you know whatever line cutting. I don't know. It's the second one. Huh.

1:18:34

Um maybe can that be both of mine?

1:18:41

Well, you know, theoretically we could take be kind and just have basic good manners, right?

1:18:46

Like you can get a very far in life.

1:18:51

I in fact, I went on a rant about people like not having manners.

1:18:57

Like good manners can get you into so many rooms and situations and it's just like they're really basic.

1:19:03

And you know, like the kids I was talking about in China, right?

1:19:09

They all the mainlanders who got really rich, right, send their kids there to learn manners >> because obviously they're seeing that uh it's probably going to get them a lot further.

1:19:20

So be kind, be nice and and and have good manners.

1:19:24

I'll give you a third one though.

1:19:25

If we put those two together, >> oh my god. Not now.

1:19:27

Now now can act for three now.

1:19:30

Um if everyone in the world including the policy makers woke up and thought like let's make sure everyone has healthcare like that I think that might be a good one right >> there you go because you are incepting the entire population that will include the regulator >> John thank you so much fascinating I love what you're doing >> thank you