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My world is artisan [music] cheese. Right. Right.
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If there was an artisan cheese Illuminati, I have a seat at that table.
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It is an international table.
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If there is an artisan cheese mafia, I'm one of the families.
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If in artisan cheese it was Game of Thrones, I'm the Starks. [laughter] Okay. Well, hello everyone.
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It's Jim Oanessy with yet another Infinite Loops.
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I've [music] been looking forward to today's guest for a long time because he has fed me literally some of the best cheese [music] I've ever had in my life, Adam Muskowitz. >> Did I do that right? >> You did.
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You You sounded it out and said it perfectly.
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[laughter] Thank you, by the way.
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>> Tell us about the course.
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Tell us about what led you into your absolute love of cheese and it is infectious.
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>> Part of me thinks it was pre-ordained.
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I I actually like lived in a place called Cheesequake.
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My nickname in camp was mouse. It is a family business.
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I never thought I'd go into the family business.
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Frankly, I thought going into the family business would mean I failed in the real world.
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And then at the age of 32, I realized my career as a rapper was a failure.
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So, I guess I guess I did fail in the real world. Um, >> all right. Time out.
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>> Sorry, we're all over the place.
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>> Give us just a couple of rap lines. Do it.
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>> All depression needs room for regression.
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Marinate in me sessional wrestle intention.
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Comprehension incites apprehension.
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So reflection can direct reflected direction.
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Trying times tw dangerous minds in the past they cannot unwind.
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>> Actually pretty good lyrics man. >> Thanks bro.
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I love po I do love poetry. I love art.
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Um I and I've turned my career of art into a career of artisan. Mhm.
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>> Um because you can't have artisan without art.
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And uh I tripped and fell backwards into the cheese business.
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I uh I worked on the internet.
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I worked at Yahoo and people thought it was a chocolate drink.
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So I made and lost a quick fortune with that internet bubble 1.
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0, but found my creative voice there and then kicked around in the internet for a bit.
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Did some startups, what have you, and then at the age of 30 decided to be a rapper.
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Um had a really cool transcendental experience at Burning Man where I realized that like being an artist was my path.
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Um, at 32, I realized I was not the next Eminem.
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I had burned through all my money.
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Um, and and my grandfather, who was the man, first man to import cheese in the US, uh, passed away.
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So, I thought it would be a cool honor to kind of go and learn about cheese in honor of my grandfather.
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So, I got a job at the Essex Food Market.
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Um, and and she saved my life.
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Didn't change my life, it saved my life. >> How? >> I was ruerless.
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I'm now in recovery, but I'm I'm a recovering drug addict and alcoholic.
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I was really just kind of like partying downtown Manhattan vibe, like really burnt out by the internet and just burnt out by corporate America and burnt burnt out by bureaucracy and politics.
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I just really was just like lost.
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And she's gave me passion and purpose.
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It became a north star for me as a saleserson.
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Uh to be able to see the lights come on in somebody in real time and like and help people like find a flavor that they didn't know they like.
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It just it was just really an enlightening experience. And that was in 2007.
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And uh my father was actually selling his business.
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So that wasn't even on the table.
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So it was a really pure pursuit.
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And then the deal my dad was trying to close fell through.
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And he offered me the opportunity to buy his business. Um and I did. >> And so that was 2007.
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And then I launched a sister company in France in 2008.
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I launched an import company in 2009.
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I launched my event business in 2010. All the cheese related. Um I'm a big believer.
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a guy, a guy named Jerry Sherosfki taught me not to chase butterflies.
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And so all my businesses are in concentric circles.
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So it's a cheese warehouse, it's a cheese import company, uh it's a cheese event company.
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And then recently um in conjunction with you, I launched a cheese media company.
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Um so a cheese course is is basically uh I origin the original idea was like Charlie Rose with cheese.
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Uh but he got cancelled and millennials don't know who he is.
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So then I was like Larry King with cheese and then the millennials didn't know who he is.
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So then I said hot ones with cheese and everybody knew what I was talking about.
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[laughter] Um but then it got weird cuz I got to explain to people that no I'm not going to burn my guests face off like it's this show is not a progressive torture to really cool famous people.
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Um it's a show where we ruminate on what we love while we eat what stinks in a good way.
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And so the idea was a deep interview, a meaningful interview, uh, while serving cheese in a way nobody's ever seen before.
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>> So what is it about cheese?
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Because like I'm a yapper and I tell a lot of people about your show and it no matter what kind of personality they have, whatever, the minute I tell them that I'm making a show about cheese, like their face changes.
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They're like, "Wow, what?
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You know how to find out? How can I watch it? Where is it? I don't [ __ ] know. No, not true.
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Let's start with like what do we say when we're taking a photograph? >> Cheese. >> Right.
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So, like you and you just said it and smiled and I had tingles down my neck.
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I I don't think we say cheese because of like the the ergonomics of my mouth smile with that word.
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I'm sure there are better words out there.
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I'm convinced it's related to our lyic system. Hm.
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>> And so our lyic system is where our memories and motivation are stored, but it's also where our sense of smell lives.
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And so I think cheese is one of our first food memories.
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I think milk is in fact our first food memory, right?
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Our first food memory is suckling from our mother's tit, right?
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So the happiest place on the planet.
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Who wouldn't want like I just want I [laughter] mean I just could we just take a moment and go back there, >> you know?
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And then if you think about the original meal plan of a child, it's grilled cheese, it's noodles with cheese, it's macaroni and cheese, it's pizza, shout out to my kids, chicken fingers and French fries, but a lot of it is cheese.
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And so I just think that cheese is part of our it's part of our diet DNA as a specific human.
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And then I I would go past it and say it's part of our original diet DNA.
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It's like um epigenic in terms of like since 8,000 years ago, we've been eating cheese. >> Yeah.
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>> And in fact, cheese is a main food sustenance that allowed uh humans to tip into civilization, right?
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It comes from the fertile crescent.
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So, I just it's just a it's just it's just a happy food.
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It's also unlike many foods, it's welcome at breakfast, lunch, dinner, and snack, right?
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So, you could put it in your eggs.
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You could have it on a sandwich.
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>> I I actually had never thought about that. It is.
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It's one of the few foods that is ubiquitous.
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You can eat it anytime, anywhere. >> Yeah.
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I don't I mean this is all theoretical.
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I am not a scientist by any stretch of the imagination.
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Um I've just too noticed that people really like it's like this everybody just gets so tickled.
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Like I like it's at a point now where people know I'm coming before I get there.
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>> And it's not because I have like really stinky cheese in my pocket.
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It's like people talk about what I do for a living.
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I show up at a party and they're like, "Oh, you're the cheese guy, right? I've got questions."
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[laughter] >> I am in Europe a lot and uh they seem to really look down their nose.
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Your average European, now you're going to correct me, right?
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So, I'm not dealing with the cheese people.
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Maybe they're not the same.
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>> Oh, no, no, no, they are.
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But like if I mention cheese, American cheese in Europe, >> I mean literally disgusted by it. >> Disgust. >> Yeah.
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No, I I mean this might come as a surprise to you, but there's a lot of ignorant people on the planet.
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>> It does not surprise me. >> No, it does.
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And then cheese especially is especially in Europe pretty snobby. >> Very. >> It's a very snobby.
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It's like very much in the wine vibe.
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I mean, when we were making your show, I compared it to the one where we went and won the entire wine competition, right?
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And they were so [ __ ] snoody and they're like, "Oh, an American would never even place, you know, and we won."
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>> The irony behind what you just said is that the movie that we're also making together, a similar thing has happened.
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Um, >> which I just love. >> I me too.
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I mean, I cried and will cry again. I mean, yeah.
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I think a lot of it just comes down to a lack of people asking the right questions and being and forgetting how big America is. >> Yes.
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>> Because like yes, there's 350 million people in America.
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Obesity is a real issue and there's a lot of cheese in bags, >> right?
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But within that framework, there [snorts] is like the 1% of artisan cheese makers.
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We brought some today that are world world class and award-winning.
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And so why that is, I don't know. I'll be honest. I don't [ __ ] care. I'm short.
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I have been bullied my whole life.
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I thrive in that environment.
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Like, look down upon me and watch me roar.
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U because it's just frankly not true.
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They don't think there's raw milk cheese in America. >> Really? >> Yeah.
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that the Europeans are shocked when they're like, "You have raw milk cheese in America." Yeah, dude. Of course.
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Parmesan reo's raw milk cheese, man.
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We have raw griier's leerier. Aop is raw milk cheese.
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We have raw We even make raw milk cheese here in America.
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We have some for you today. >> So, yeah.
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I mean, [ __ ] idiots, I guess, is the simple answer to your question. Like, why [ __ ] idiots?
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Um, but also great because I love breaking stereotypes.
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>> That's kind of my notion.
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It's it's just one big stereotype, right?
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It's like, oh, Wisconsin, the cheese heads, you know, your Velvita.
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They always mention I've never I can't remember the last can of Velvita I had in my kitchen, right?
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And yet that that's every European, they go right there or craft, you know, the the the cheese slices, >> which is like fine.
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I mean, I don't mind being underdogs.
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I also think that it is changing. Yeah.
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>> That like the reality is is that an American cheese won at the World Cheese Awards within the last four years.
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Uh American cheese artist artisan here's the thing.
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Let's take a big step back.
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My world is artisan cheese. Right. Right.
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If there was an artisan cheese Illuminati, I have a seat at that table.
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It is an international table.
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If there is an artisan cheese mafia, I'm one of the families.
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Um, I'm not the ruling f like if there was if if in artisan cheese it was Game of Thrones, I'm I'm the Starks. Okay.
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[laughter] Um, I've watched our industry grow up here in America because the reality is is 20 years ago you could maybe on one hand highlight the best cheese shops in America, right?
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There was Murray shoes in New York.
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in New York. There was de Bruno's in Philadelphia or there was Zingermanman's in like it was like very and now every city has independent shops specialty food chains right like the whole foods movement uh webg like there's like
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there's there's there's gourmet artisan cheese it's prolific now here in the United States which then brings up the movement then there's the artisan cheese makers that realize that's a viable option that comes up even within this like Wisconsin. Some of my favorite
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Some of my favorite cheese makers, one of the cheeses we're going to present to you today is from Wisconsin, but it is limited batch.
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It's, you know, Farmstead.
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It's going to blow your mind.
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The reality is you're not going to know where you're not, you would, if I told you it was from Switzerland, you would believe me. >> Do you do that?
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Do you do you when you're in Europe, do you mix and match?
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Do you bring cheeses from Switzerland and France and and then slip in the Americans and and >> No.
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[laughter] Um, no I don't. That would be funny. I should do that.
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I I don't The the What's more interesting to me now is how just like I described America, there's great shops in France, in England, like known. >> Mhm.
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>> And they've been importing now our cheeses. >> Okay.
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So, so some of my best friends here in America, whether it's Jasper Hill, um or uh Uplands, Andy Hatch, um I actually am able to buy their cheese in Europe, which is actually like mind-blowing and gratifying.
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And I also just want to highlight often the same snoodiness doesn't translate or it's not.
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So, English cheddar, like I love English cheddar, but the way my mind thinks of English cheddar is like Montgomery's cheddar, Quick's cheddar, is of mall, licature poacher, West Comb, right?
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These like really special chedders.
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And every time I hear somebody with an English accent, I'm like, "Oh my god, YOU'RE ENGLISH. GREAT.
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WHAT WHAT'S YOUR FAVORITE KIND OF CHEDDAR?"
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And 10 out of 10 times they go, "Uh, mature."
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And I'm like, [laughter] "What? Wait, what?
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What about Montgomery's?"
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And they're like, "What's that?"
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And so I think the good news for us is that the audience of artisan cheese is is expanding.
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We'll continue to expand and I think over time uh really good cheese Europe's going to like Europe is already in the process of knowing about it because we just we just took the world championship title for a cheesemonger which was first time ever done.
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Um and we're having really good showings at the World Cheese Awards.
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Did I did I answer that question? >> Yeah, you did. >> Okay, good.
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Let's let's talk about a cheese course. Okay.
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Let's talk about what you're doing there.
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I think it's a format that is really interesting and works really well and the fact that you have such a variety of guests, but let our viewers and listeners in on the secret.
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>> Yeah, the the secret is finding people that are really passionate about what they do and and are excited to share about it.
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The thread is cheese, right?
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So, like it's the format.
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The format is a riff on what we all know and love, meaning it's an interview show.
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It's just it's a lot of people think it's a podcast, which I I want to say doesn't offend me, but it does a little bit.
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Um, only because there's a lot of work that's gone into it, but I digress.
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Part of my inspiration is late night TV.
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And so what I mean by that is that the food that's being prepared for me and my guest is done so by my my cheese mongers Tommy and Alex.
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And we actually have them in a camera shot.
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And so we riff back to them so that they're kind of like my Paul Schaefer.
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>> I also really want cheese to not go the way of wine.
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I don't want cheese to be snobby.
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I know it is expensive, but I choose to call it valuable. >> All right. Cheese is not expensive. It's valuable.
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the flavor per bite in a good piece of cheese rifle uh rivals any other basic cheese you might find at a store.
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Um too much cheese you buy at a supermarket tastes creamy, which blows my [ __ ] mind because cream is a goddamn texture.
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It's not a flavor, right?
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>> And so for us at a cheese course, what we're trying to do is we're we are trying to educate the audience and the guest about cheese in a fun creative way.
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I I'm trying to show an audience that cheese is not just something that you melt on some bread, that it actually can be center of the plate.
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It can be the the main protein.
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Um, which I think blows people's mind because like it's like, whoa, what do you mean?
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Like it's just you eat like I eat cheese with a cracker.
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And I'm like, yeah, dude, I eat cheese like an apple, right?
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But we could also make it Michelinike.
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>> Um, but most important, I just love talking to interesting people. >> Same with me. Obviously. >> Yeah.
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I mean, why did you start your podcast?
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>> Uh because a young guy at my previous firm would not let me rest until I actually did it.
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If you want to know the honest to God truth.
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>> And what's the experience been like for you?
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>> It's been fantastic because uh like you, I I'm just uh I could talk to people like you forever.
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I love talking to interesting people and I love learning uh about a variety of things.
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And so I have kind of the perfect environment to do that this podcast.
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Do you ever see the movie um My Dinner with Andre?
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>> Uh no, >> Wallace Shawn, you know, he was the inconceivable guy.
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>> Oh yeah, I love that guy. Yeah.
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So he made this movie in like I think 81 82 >> and I was absolutely fascinated by this movie because literally what it is is his dinner with Andre. >> Okay.
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And and the entire movie is he's he's he's really like he scores very high on neuroticism and and so the movie opens with him walking to the dinner and his internal monologue, right?
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And and he's just filled with self-doubt.
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He's filled with all of these things.
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And Andre is this kind of larger than-l life character who's lived everywhere in the world and whatnot. And also a playwright.
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Wallace Sean's character as a playwright >> and but the dinner is riveting.
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What they talk about is literally some of the most interesting stuff I've ever watched.
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And and like I when when I first saw the movie, I was just like >> this this is amazing.
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And so, you know, I guess I was in the minority.
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It didn't do all that well, right?
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Because essentially it's a fly on the wall of two very smart guys talking to each other.
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I mean, sadly, niche content is usually the best content, but >> Exactly. Exactly.
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And so when the the Jamie Catherwood was was the kid who wouldn't let me off the hook and I said, "All right, here's your assignment.
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Rent the movie, My Dinner with Andre." >> Okay.
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>> And understand that that is the only kind of podcast I will do. >> Okay.
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>> And so he watched it and he came.
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He's like, "That's very limiting."
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[laughter] >> Well, do you think you're talking or interviewing?
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I'm having a conversation.
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I have a lot of new authors who come on and to promote their book and like I've had several of them say to me, "Did did we even mention the book?" [laughter] >> Oh, wow. Okay. I love it.
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I really want to get the world to awaken their senses.
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Like my I my life's work is fostering meaningful connections. >> Cheese is my tool.
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Uh, I help people think more deeply and breathe more deeply uh through cheese.
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And the show for me is about highlighting the importance of passion.
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>> That that cheese saved my life.
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And so now I'm I'm dedicated to cheese.
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And when we first were making the show, the idea was like I'll bring on cheese people and it'll be like cheese on cheese on cheese.
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And then I realized that that doesn't hit the mark because I want to make impact. >> Yeah.
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>> Uh I really want to make impact.
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I think I I just I think I was listening to actually the podcast of the founders guy where he interviewed the Spotify guy. I don't know. I could be wrong. >> David Se.
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>> And so it was fascinating.
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I learned there this idea of like making an impact when you're choosing work.
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Are you choosing work for happiness or for impact? >> Right?
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>> And I and I realized that happiness is such a weird construct, very elusive, often not even real, but impact is so deep and meaningful. >> Yeah.
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>> And what what's happening for me is I can make if I make an impact, then I could be happy.
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And so the show for me now is really about trying to highlight and illustrate from all walks of life individuals that are doing things that you wouldn't normally expect, right?
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like Catr Kratic of Savvoir magazine uh a woman who worked there to make it continue decided to buy it like that's such kutzbah and then her first move was to bring it back to print like that's so counterintuitive but to me makes perfect sense um >> you know Arthur Kesler uh writer and thinker he had this idea that the best ideas come out of putting two very different people or fields together. Yes. >> And I agree.
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I I just think it's like one of the ways we've set up our team.
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I I you know, everyone talks about diversity, diversity, diversity, and they miss entirely. Yes.
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Diversity is very important, but a specific kind of diversity is important in my opinion.
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And that is cognitive diversity, >> interest diversity, the way people like you could have two super passionate people, >> which is great, but if they're interested about the same thing, like yeah, they'll huddle in a corner and like yap with each other, but if you get two passionate people and this guy's really interested in AI and this guy's really interested in cheese, those are the conversations I want to listen to. >> Yes.
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Because like I am so exhausted by echo chambers and in fact believe that we are all given gifts.
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The god of my understanding, not a Judeo-Christian sky daddy, the god of my understanding, which is the force from Star Wars. But I I digress.
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Um all gives us all gifts.
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And I think my my role as I walk this planet is to figure out what that gift is or those gifts are. Yeah.
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And then just look to perfect it.
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The understanding I'll never be perfect but perfected.
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So So I think I think to your point like >> good work becomes great work when people identify their gifts, focus on their gifts, surround themselves with people that believe the same thing but do different things. Yes.
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And that's how greatness happens. Totally agree. Totally agree.
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Uh the one of the biggest problems I saw when I was still in asset management is you know the archetype >> and like for the most part uh when you put all those people together it's just a really shitty experience >> because like what you need is you need you throw in an artist throw in somebody who thinks completely differently.
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They don't think in numbers, they think in words.
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Or it's like I love poetry for example.
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And like I memorized a hundred poems when I was a kid just because I know. >> Do you remember? Do you remember any? >> Oh, for sure. I mean, which come on.
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What do you What do you want?
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Uh >> um what I whatever like your favorite?
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>> Uh a damsel with a doulamer in a vision.
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Once I saw she was an abyssian maid, and on her dual simmer she played singing of Mount Abora.
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Could I revive within me her symphony, her song, to such a deep delight would win me with music loud and long.
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I would build that sunny dome those caves of ice.
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And all who heard should see them there, and all should cry, "Beware, beware his flashing eyes, his floating hair.
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Weave a circle around him thrice, and close your eyes in holy dread.
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For he on honeydew hath fed and drunk the milk of paradise.
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>> Yo, that's that's like that's kind of like shell servicing and Dr.
24:13
Seuss went back to medieval times.
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I [ __ ] [laughter] love that. >> That's cool.
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[snorts] Who wrote Cool Ridge? >> Nice.
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>> When he was absolutely whacked out on opium, >> he was in opium.
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And the the the full poem is called Kublon. >> Okay.
24:29
And uh it's it's it's about this mythical uh leader.
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But that last stanza I just [ __ ] think rocks is so good because because he's like and he wrote that what 150 200 years ago.
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>> So what was he saying?
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Basically, he was saying that like he has that urge, that creative urge to to build that that incredible cave filled with ice and just endless ceilings and everything, but that anyone at that time at least, anyone who would even entertain that kind of idea was batshit crazy. >> Yeah.
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And it's like William Blake is another one, right?
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He was also a great artist.
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And if you look at William Blank uh etchings today like you it will [ __ ] blow your mind because he's got like the the the stairway to heaven, right? And guess what it is? It's a double helix.
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>> And and then you know he wrote, of course, Tiger Tiger Burning Bright in the forest of the night.
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What immortal hand or I dare frame thy fearful symmetry?
25:42
And like literally I kind of think about that market that way that way, right?
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The market is a fearful symmetry. >> Yep.
25:50
>> That ultimately gets things sorted out, but people are like really afraid.
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So in in in my instance, I did it just because I loved it.
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I love TSL is probably my favorite poet.
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>> Um and love song of J Alfred Poofrock.
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Uh, let us go then, you and I, as the evening is spread out against the sky.
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I won't do the whole thing because it's [ __ ] half an hour long.
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But what it is is >> Do you write any poetry? >> Huh?
26:16
>> Do you write any poetry? >> No. >> Why? You say indignantly. Why?
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>> Well, because I would suck.
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I I just that you were talking a moment ago about gifts, right? >> Yeah.
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>> So, mine is not for writing poetry.
26:29
[laughter] It's for writing other things and maybe reciting it.
26:30
But um I think poetry is like really interesting because we were talking earlier uh about uh information theory Claude Shannon right and and he had this great line which really cuts through to the chase of what information is right and it's he explained it this this way he was like okay so read a political speech I can guarantee you there is zero information in in that speech. >> Y >> read a poem.
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It's cha block full of information.
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>> And so his entire thesis is that information is what is new and attracts your attention.
27:15
And essentially when when I got done with the whole poetry thing, I just found it coming in handy so many times, right? Yeah.
27:24
Because like literally it's like oh yeah you know Shakespeare said that or cool rich or you know and then the other fun thing like Andrew Marll wrote this poem which I also memorized to his co koi mistress right and all of it when you translate it it is like our it is not safe for work.
27:46
>> Okay [laughter] >> and things like you know uh had we but world enough in time this coinous lady were no crime.
27:52
But then he starts going into like don't shun me because you know your quaint honor you know what quaint was Elizabethan for >> vagina.
28:04
[laughter] >> So like when you start looking up the actual words you're like god this >> I was an x-rated writer.
28:13
>> I just love the fact that like now that anytime's ever been like oh my god that's so quaint they're like no that's [ __ ] Um, [laughter] so I I love poetry because I love the jazz of it.
28:25
I love I love I love the beat of it.
28:28
I love I love the break like English was my worst lang like my worst like I was really good at math and science and really bad at English because the the the rules in English were just something they just felt too rigid and it doesn't feel appropriate.
28:42
feel appropriate. like it makes sense for like geometry was my favorite math because I like that you could actually get to the theorem the proof in in a variety of different ways but I also love algebra >> excuse me um I also hearing you riff about like passion purpose and how you
28:59
bring people together and made me think of Willy Wonka >> h I love Willy Wonka >> I love Willy Wonka well just because like problem solving solving problems that like and this idea of like you know you'll you'll figure out how to shrink drink a chocolate bar by by learning how to take a gigantic one into a little one. Like I just Yeah. I I find And so a Like I just Yeah.
29:17
I I find And so a cheese course to me is like a very sneaky way to get people to eat more cheese, >> but more importantly, it's a the because cheese is such a hook.
29:32
It's really a sneaky way to expand people's perception of passion and purpose. >> Yeah, I agree.
29:39
Having watched them all, I love the fact that uh we were talking about uh an artist that we collect, Barry Xball. >> Yeah.
29:48
>> And you were saying a lot of people were like, "Yeah, that was a Okay, I loved that. I loved that episode." >> I same.
29:56
And I What's cool about the internet is it's evergreen.
29:58
I think Barry's episode is really informative, but it's really off topic. >> Yeah. >> Right.
30:06
[laughter] It's really off topic.
30:09
like we get into like Duchamp and I don't think a lot of like people were expecting to learn like that's not how this the the the series was set up.
30:15
Uh it also makes me feel like there's I wasn't sure if it was going to be eight episodes or it could be a 100 episodes and it's an episode like Barry that makes me realize it could be 100 episodes >> definitely.
30:30
>> And that people will find they'll find the long form off the short form.
30:32
That's the other interesting thing that I really one of one of the reasons I wanted to make the show is I want to prove that long- form content quality production can be made at a fraction of the price >> and have an audience online.
30:47
It feels like right now a lot of what's online is like made on your phone really like overlit and I wanted to like remind people that like color saturation matters um and like thoughtful editing matters.
31:02
Uh but what's interesting is the data is showing that they're not really tuning in on the long form.
31:06
It's really the short form that everybody's clicking on, which which is great, right?
31:11
Because it turns out that the whole internet uh economy now is like it's an ad for an ad for an ad for an ad, right?
31:18
That I got to chop it up in little pieces to spoon feed it to you.
31:24
So maybe at one point you'll decide to sit down and watch the full episode. Yeah.
31:27
Or maybe you'll just I'll just be part of your doom scroll.
31:29
Either way, if if we're getting people to to see that what seems crazy isn't crazy, right, Barry, the Barry episode, here's a guy that's actually convinced the greatest museums in the world.
31:44
He's convinced them to let him and his team come in and scan the greatest works of art in the world. >> I know.
31:55
>> To then make riffs off of it. >> Yeah. >> Not copies. >> No, I know. I know how it works.
32:01
>> Like holy like who like talk about like the the fine line between crazy and genius. Yeah. >> Right.
32:07
Like >> but you know what that's back to your passion, right?
32:10
It's absolutely what the as I watched them all. That's what I saw.
32:17
saw. I saw you talking with other really passionate people >> and those conversations to me at least are always interesting >> because like you know you're talking about Duchamp right oh isn't that the guy who turned the toilet into a piece of art right like well yeah but there's
32:38
so much more to why did that happen why you know what was the whole thing going on >> you've conversated with a lot of fascinating people what' you Because the Barry episode, I I came into that episode with a preconceived notion that the the guy who made the banana on the wall. Yeah. Yeah.
32:56
>> Like that wasn't art and that was really stupid and trivial. Yeah.
33:00
>> And by the time I finished editing that episode, I realized that that artist is an actual genius who has done the most prolific types of of installations.
33:07
And that was just a statement. >> Yeah.
33:12
And it actually is like so [ __ ] punk rock what he did that like >> CBGB all the way. >> All the way. Like oh my >> Banksy. Yeah.
33:21
I mean better than like it's >> I I would fight you on that one.
33:24
I think Bangsy is a >> No, Banksy is my favorite.
33:27
I I was going to say better than Bangsy because like it's so subtle.
33:32
Like Banksy like Banksy selling a piece of art at auction and then destroying it in front of everybody.
33:39
Like there to me there's nothing cooler. >> Yeah.
33:43
>> But the fact that that the guy with the banana literally bought the banana went in and then taped it to a wall and was like done >> is like >> I went in I went in with a pre I went in being like that's not art.
33:55
And I came out of that episode being like yeah that is totally >> you know that that is a really interesting observation because >> it happens time and time and time again and it's not just art it's everything.
34:10
So people naturally react with hostility to things that they haven't been able to tune into yet, right?
34:16
Like we didn't know about the microscopic world until we invented a microscope.
34:22
>> Y >> and and so all of a sudden >> looking through it, we're like, "Holy [ __ ] there's a whole another world in there."
34:30
But you've got to have that to get tuned in.
34:33
>> I think the same is true with art, right?
34:36
like the impressionists the this the dominant school in Paris was academic art right which sucked and anyway they were the ones who derisively named the impressionists that was that was meant as an insult they're like basically oh you know it's like my child granddaughter can make impressions with her finger paint this is what they are doing >> oh [ __ ] And so, but see the thing is same thing happened in literature.
35:08
James Joyce came on the scene and everyone was like, "What the [ __ ] is going on with this guy?"
35:16
>> Like, "What the fuck?"
35:16
And it was because they'd never read anything like that.
35:21
And so now, of course, you've got Blooms Day every year in Ireland and it's celebrated, but it took people time to understand the new form.
35:30
to understand the new form. I also appreciate time in the in the extended life of an artist because yes I think I think what's new people get afraid of it right I mean look at it in technology I remember when the microwave came out it was like don't stand three feet three feet you know and
35:51
and >> can I get the lead apron >> and then and then this week I drove in a whammo self-driving car and like the first 3 minutes I was LIKE OH MY GOD I BETTER CALL MY LIFE AND uh by the end of the day on my third ride I'm like this is the greatest car ride I've ever had in my life. I feel so safe. Um but I I feel so safe.
36:08
Um but I also think time in a different frame is also important because my issue with the with the banana was like versus when talking to Barry Xall who could spend 10,000 hours on a piece of art.
36:18
I'm like that like time matters but what he helped me see is that time matters in the life of an artist not the life of the piece of art. >> Right. Exactly.
36:28
And and that is a revelation.
36:32
>> And let's bring it back to cheese.
36:32
I I mean, because that is an art form as well, >> I think. So, well, you know what?
36:38
Let's Let me show you it actually.
36:40
Do we Can we eat some cheese? >> Sure. Let's >> All right.
36:43
Are we ready for some cheese?
36:45
>> Can we eat some cheese? >> Sure. Let's eat some cheese.
36:47
>> What's interesting about cheese for me is that so much of cheese is happening at the microscopic level. >> Yeah.
36:53
>> But the microscope is not that we've been making cheese since 6,000 BC. Right.
36:57
[laughter] >> So if you think about cheese >> from 2,000 years ago, >> presentation, too. It's beautiful.
37:05
>> What do we got on the sh side for you?
37:07
So the bottom is cucumber, fresh cucumber. We have lour.
37:09
So that is from Altalanga over in Italy.
37:11
So three milks, cow goat, and sheep. Soft ripen cheese.
37:17
On top we have smoked salmon um from um Alaska.
37:20
Little capers, little dill. Chalot. >> Oh my god.
37:24
You're going you're going Jewish bagel.
37:26
Yeah, he's got a Jewish bagel for us. >> A Jewish bagel. Cheers. >> Cheers. >> So, is this art? >> I think so. Look at it.
37:35
>> I mean, it looks >> And now wait, more importantly. >> Oh my god. >> Oh my god. >> So, what is art? >> Incredible. >> It's incredible. What is art? >> You tell me. You're the guest.
37:54
I think art is helping people change their perception. >> I agree.
38:00
>> I thought for a long time that art, if an artist is on top of a mountain making paintings and then he burns the place down and nobody sees the paintings, for a long time I thought that wasn't art.
38:10
I thought that was just an exercise of an individual.
38:13
And I've come to realize that that is actually wrong.
38:15
That that artist is his first audience >> and that he changed over time by the art that he created.
38:26
But great art winds up finding a large audience and then the audience as you just described with James Joyce all of a sudden goes from like WHAT WHAT IS HAPPENING HERE BECAUSE IT'S LIKE SO UNCOMFORTABLE.
38:37
>> It's so uncomfortable and then you become comfortable and that to me is what art is and and and art happens.
38:40
I think I think all human beings are artists. >> I agree.
38:45
>> I think I think life is the stage.
38:45
I think I think life is the or the canvas if I may.
38:51
Um, and so, uh, cheese for so long wasn't was even bigger than art.
38:58
Cheese was like, think about it as it relates to like before there was like organized religion that like they would drink this milk >> and it would make the babies grow, >> right?
39:12
>> And then all of a sudden they figured out that if they made they took this milk would magically turn into cheese because they didn't have a microscope.
39:21
They didn't know what was happening.
39:22
They just knew that like >> do do you know the origin story of how did how did they first discover >> I mean >> the milk turns into cheese?
39:31
>> There's a few different anidotes.
39:31
One is that the shepherd uh the goat shepherd >> uh used the stomach of a calf as a canteen.
39:41
If you think about the cantens. >> Yeah.
39:44
>> And >> and drank milk >> and it was a hot day and he was traveling long distance and there the enzymes in the actual canteen is where the rena comes from.
39:56
The hot the jostle that all combined uh basically coagulated the milk. >> Yeah.
40:03
>> And the first cheese was like cottage cheese.
40:06
>> But he's out there in the desert.
40:06
He's got to he's still got he's got to eat. So he's like [ __ ] it.
40:09
I'll [laughter] eat this [ __ ] and it was [ __ ] good.
40:12
That's that's one antidote.
40:12
Uh I I think I mean I I I think the original way of perceiving it is like it was the lactic or the acid set.
40:19
You take milk, it sits overnight and it begins to curdle.
40:21
But then what are you going to do?
40:24
And like you know you're like I'll try a little like and I think they realized and then I think over time andor teroir like just the the the actions associated uh determined what would happen meaning cutting it fine like just experimentation, right?
40:37
cutting the curds fine versus just ladling the curds, adding salt, not adding salt, adding a lot of salt.
40:44
How you press it like over time.
40:46
But, uh, I've got like I'm not the nerdy guy. I'm the passion guy. The nerdy guy is Alex.
40:51
[laughter] >> Alex, come here. Come in real quick. >> Come in. Come in real quick.
40:58
>> And and make sure our film crew gets some of the cheese, too. I prom I promise. I I did promise.
41:01
Uh, so real quick, you've got you've got he he likes to go the long way around the lake and we got to go straight to the boat house.
41:10
Alex, >> why don't we take it?
41:11
[laughter] >> One way ticket.
41:12
Straight to the boat house. >> How was she invented? You got 10 seconds.
41:16
>> The first cheese is yogurt.
41:16
Yogurt is just simply what you were talking about, coagulated milk over time.
41:21
So bacteria are acidifying the milk and make it into a solid.
41:25
And what's amazing about cheese, you can't go back.
41:27
You can't take that solid and turn it back into milk.
41:31
>> It's a one-way ticket.
41:31
So that's the initial the very first cheese is yogurt and just becomes different and different based on different cultures, religion, wars.
41:39
Like the entire industrial cheese complex of the US is World War I. >> Huh. >> Huh. >> Okay. >> Okay. Thank you. >> Well done, Alex. >> Well done, Alex. >> I don't know, Adam.
41:50
Maybe I should have him sitting there.
41:53
>> I I [laughter] I get that a lot, actually. Um I get that a lot. I employ him.
41:58
[laughter] Um, don't make me fire him, Jim. I'm kidding. I'm kidding. You're safe, Alex. >> For today. >> For today.
42:08
Um, and what's interesting with with with cheese is that like depending on where like, you know, French cheese dairy mates, the women were making the cheese from like from the goats. >> Yeah. >> Right.
42:20
And so that form is small because they were using their hands as forms.
42:24
Whereas like Pecarina Romano, the Romans were taking large a lot of Kurd, packing it into a big mold.
42:30
The mold being the like the thing that holds the Kurd and they needed to travel over long distances because they were conquering lands and such, but they needed sustenance and so they had that, >> right? >> Yep.
42:42
>> So, >> so is there anywhere in the world that you've discovered where they like just don't eat cheese?
42:51
>> Think about it in terms of dairy culture.
42:52
So there are definitely places that don't have dairy culture. Yeah.
42:54
But even that is changing.
42:56
Um and then when you think about cheese, let's think about it in a different lens.
43:01
Think about it as a fermentation.
43:03
And you can think about it in terms of a fermentation.
43:06
Then it becomes even more widespread. >> Right?
43:09
So a natural inclination would be like is there cheese in China?
43:11
And no, China is not really a dairy culture. It's a rice culture. Yeah.
43:18
>> Um but tofu, >> right?
43:21
So, fermentation, >> right? Right.
43:23
>> So, so tofu is kind of like cheese.
43:28
>> Um, oh man, the comments, the cheese people are going to like lose their [ __ ] mind on that one.
43:31
Um, but then like you, but Ireland, >> dairy culture, but not cheese butter. >> Right. Right. Absolutely true.
43:43
>> So, so you think about in terms of dairy culture, but then like, but then where's yak cheese from? >> Yak cheese. >> Mongolia. Mongolia. Right. >> Right.
43:51
So, Mongolians are making cheese out of from yak milk. >> Yeah.
43:55
>> You know, and then camel cheese.
43:57
>> Um, I have a dream one day of making well cheese. >> Okay.
44:04
>> It's going to taste real fishy.
44:04
I was going to say like sushi.
44:07
>> What is that going to taste like?
44:09
>> It's going to taste like fish.
44:10
>> Yeah, [laughter] exactly.
44:11
>> It's going to taste It's going to taste quaint. [laughter] >> Wow. Did I go there? that I was at.
44:20
>> You're lucky that this uh podcast is the anything goes right. >> Yeah, totally.
44:24
It's like >> you can swear as much as you want. >> Yeah.
44:28
Now we're in the dark the dark corners of the internet right now. [laughter] >> Yeah. The the quaintness. Very quaint.
44:38
>> No, I mean, but think about it. Very quaint.
44:39
Like [clears throat] No, no.
44:39
I mean, [laughter] >> no, there's this like cheese is from milk. So malian, right?
44:44
So like >> there was a movement. I wouldn't. I haven't. It's gross.
44:49
But there was like some chef that was making cheese out of his wife's milk, which is really >> Yeah, dude. Look at it. Google it.
44:55
It's [ __ ] like I don't know why you would do that. Like just drink it. But [laughter] so weird.
45:02
And then like people >> the baby might get a little pissed off about that though.
45:07
>> I mean, [laughter] dude, dude, the vegans >> Wait a minute.
45:10
NOW THE VE THE VEGANS are going to lose their mind. >> Yes, of course.
45:12
But like, dad, what the [ __ ] What [laughter] the [ __ ] And he's like, the dad's like, "I'm making this for later."
45:21
So, you know, and like I get a lot like I don't know, like my the least favorite question I get is like, "What's your favorite cheese?"
45:28
And I'm like, "Chicken cheese.
45:30
It's just a [ __ ] to find those teeth."
45:32
[laughter] And people are like, "Huh?"
45:33
And I'm like, "Oh my god, dude.
45:37
Those people usually misspell my name." And um so where are we?
45:43
You want to try another cheese? Yes, of course.
45:45
The first one was so incredibly delicious. >> That's right.
45:52
>> Um, this is a very interesting riff on griier. So, this is 1655 griier.
45:56
This is what probably the best expression of griier in the world.
46:00
Um, we have a panapuri shell.
46:02
So, an Indian uh little semolina shell.
46:06
Inside is coconut candy papaya and a little turmeric and garam masala. >> Wow. >> Okay. Wow. Absolutely.
46:13
Now again, we're back to art, right? Look at this. >> Is this art?
46:19
>> This This is definitely art.
46:20
>> That's what I'm saying. >> Cheers. >> Cheers. >> Good. >> All right. What do you taste? >> It's fantastic.
46:37
And I could definitely see having just this for your meal.
46:41
>> You taste the cheese in there. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> But also the curry. >> Oh, all of it. >> And there's fruit. >> Yeah. >> Papaya. >> Papaya. >> Papaya. >> That was amazing.
46:50
I mean, honestly, that was amazing.
46:54
>> So, >> is there a restaurant in Manhattan that does this? >> No.
47:00
>> I mean, that kind of blows my mind.
47:02
>> So, you would expect of all places Manhattan would have that restaurant.
47:07
>> I think there was there was one place and there still might be a place. I'm not really sure.
47:12
And even if they are, they're not doing it at the level that me and my team do.
47:16
>> Um, >> and >> because I mean, >> yeah, I mean, yeah, I there's um [gasps] >> a restaurant seems like a lot of work, >> but we we do private events. >> Okay. >> All right, Jim.
47:30
>> So, if you want to have us back for a private event, I'd be more than happy to come. >> Definitely.
47:34
>> Um, and I don't even have to come. We could just send Alex.
47:36
Um, [laughter] >> but >> I I view you, Adam, as an asset, though. So, Oh, yeah. [laughter] Nice.
47:45
I'm like, can't have can't have ass without an asset.
47:48
[laughter] So, I think what's interesting also because the way the way my brain works when serving cheese is like you want to tap, you want to uh uh check a lot of boxes, >> right?
48:03
So, like check a lot of boxes.
48:04
You got milk type, cow, sheep, goat, whale.
48:07
You got yak, camel, chicken.
48:07
No, cow, sheep, goat, buffalo.
48:15
>> Yeah, >> but really cow, sheep, goat.
48:15
And then you have um make type, right? Um or rind type.
48:22
So you have uh soft ripened.
48:22
The first cheese was soft ripened.
48:26
Three milks with uh candidum. >> Yeah. Uh geotrigum.
48:31
Geotrich them and candy eat them or just geotri them.
48:35
>> They usually hang out together. >> Yeah, they right. >> Sorry.
48:39
Cheese that looks like an old man wrinkly.
48:41
>> Yeah, >> that's that's what we were just talking about.
48:43
>> So like that first cheese ticked a lot of boxes.
48:45
We knocked out all the milks cow sheep goat and then we got soft ripen >> and then we got um the ry being uh gio and then the second cheese is griier.
48:56
So now we pivoted to just cow.
48:59
>> Yeah, >> I love cow cheeses.
49:00
That's usually my favorite.
49:02
Um, Alpine style or Alpine, not even style, Alpine.
49:06
Um, and then yeah, so I'm like, what is he going to do next?
49:12
Because like we're we're ticking a couple of really good boxes.
49:15
Uh, >> as as we wait for the next uh serving, which I am really looking forward, she wants to eat more.
49:23
Let's talk about the movie a little bit.
49:25
You know, you were taking a pretty big risk, right?
49:27
because they could have gone and >> I bet a house actually.
49:31
Let's let's be real clear and simple. The cool story. Sorry.
49:36
I I >> I'm learning how to be a better interviewer, but I'm I'm interviewing. I'm being interviewed. I'm interrupting. >> That's okay. >> I'm sorry. I took it.
49:42
You were say you were saying, Jim, >> no, no, no.
49:44
Tell us about tell us about betting the house. >> Ask No.
49:47
Tell I want to finish you.
49:47
I want to allow I want to be a respectful guest and allow you to finish your question [laughter] before I talk too much. >> All right.
49:57
So, I was going to say, and you anticipated what I was going to say.
50:02
You literally bet a house >> on a highly unlikely outcome. >> Yes.
50:07
>> What was it that was like, you know what?
50:09
I really have to make this movie. >> I love my community.
50:14
>> I'm a part of the artisan cheese community. Cheese.
50:17
So, there's cheese makers and there's cheese mongers.
50:20
Cheese makers are the people who make the cheese.
50:21
Cheese mongers are the people who sell the cheese.
50:22
The cheesemonger community is my people.
50:26
They are a bunch of outcasts.
50:26
They're a bunch of second career people.
50:28
They're a bunch of passion purpose people.
50:32
Um, I have spent the last 15 years mentoring cheese mongers and and trying to get them to believe that they're more than just people who cut the cheese.
50:48
Because I love cheese and cheese needs a mouthpiece, a puppeteer.
50:53
uh an advocate and the cheese monger is that person.
50:57
And so I've been fostering this community of cheesemongers through an event called the cheesemonger invitational.
51:02
And what I've been seeing at this event year over year is that the what they were creating with cheese just kept to be mind-blowing.
51:08
So I'm sitting at like the forefront of a movement that nobody knows about and nobody's seeing, but I have a front row seat to this incredible dynamic group of people and this ridiculous thing they're doing with cheese. All right. Like that's Alex. How did I meet you? >> Cheese.
51:27
>> Cheesemonger Invitational. Right.
51:27
So hundreds of hundreds of almost now probably thousands of people have come through Cheesemonger Invitational.
51:34
So I have this firsthand look at Cheesemongers and what they're doing and it's a super cool community and I'm I love documentary films. So like SM great movie.
51:44
Uh Born in the Brothel sad but amazing movie.
51:46
Like all these different glimpses, right?
51:48
Great documentary film is like a glimpse into a place you never thought to even look perhaps, right? and cut two.
51:55
For the last 15 years, I've been having the the entertainment world approach me about we oh my god, ADAM, YOU'RE SO FUNNY AND I LOVE CHEESE.
52:03
LET'S MAKE A SHOW ABOUT YOU.
52:05
[laughter] And I'm like, all right, cool.
52:07
And then what happens is the the establishment, right, has been like, "Oh, wait a second.
52:13
You're too funny, less funny."
52:15
[laughter] And I'm like, "But I don't."
52:16
And then like, "Oh, and can you grow your hair like a boy band?" real. No. No. Come on. >> Swear to God.
52:24
AND UH CHEESE IS TOO NARROW.
52:27
YOU KNOW THE FLYOVER STATES, THEY DON'T LIKE CHEESE.
52:29
AND I'M LIKE, have you ever been to a flyover state?
52:32
Like [laughter] [ __ ] casserole, you idiot.
52:36
[ __ ] >> Hey, I grew up in a flyover state. >> No, I knew it.
52:39
HE'S GOT A GREAT CHEESE SHOP THERE. FRANCE 44. Shout out. >> That's right.
52:43
>> And so like I just kept hearing the gatekeepers telling me no, no, no.
52:44
Um, I the closest I got to my own show was uh a specific channel sent me to Montreal to eat cheeseburgers for three days cuz we were doing a show about comfort food.
52:59
Um, and then they told me I wasn't olive gardeny enough.
53:02
[laughter] Which, by the way, I was like I was like, you're damn [ __ ] right.
53:08
At what point, [ __ ] did I ever let you think I was like I like what?
53:12
I've never even eaten at.
53:15
So, so >> I've never been to one.
53:18
>> I've never been to one.
53:18
So, no disrespect to you Olive Garden.
53:19
Like, none [laughter] of your Actually, let's be honest.
53:22
None of your listeners go to Nobody listening to this podcast. >> They're like, "No."
53:27
[laughter] Some of them are like, "We have a garden where we grow olives." >> Grow olives.
53:32
[laughter] >> Is this what you were referring to, Jim? >> Not at all.
53:36
So, what happened was about five years ago, I was like, you know what?
53:41
I'm just going to I'm going to make [ __ ] So, I packaged up a TV show idea that's kind of like it was like uh Top Chef meets Iron Chef with a ton of cheese, >> but it [clears throat] was super I made it way more complicated than they need to be.
53:55
I started pitching it and I started hearing again like go I was getting into the rooms this time.
53:59
They were telling me the industry is dying.
54:04
Everybody, nobody's spending money.
54:04
It's it's A [ __ ] BLOOD BATH, MAN.
54:06
I don't even know if I'm going to have a job next week, right?
54:08
[laughter] At all of them.
54:10
And I was like, "Oh, okay.
54:10
That's really I'm like I keep going to Netflix and like there's a new show coming out, so [laughter] like who's [ __ ] making it then?"
54:17
And then while I was doing that, an amazing documentary uh filmmaker reached out to me over Instagram and was like, I want to make a documentary movie about cheese.
54:31
Uh and everybody I talked to says, I need to talk to you.
54:33
And I was like, all right, cool. Let's take a meeting.
54:35
and we took a meeting and brilliant filmmaker Sarah Joe Walinsky working for the New Yorker.
54:42
Love that magazine did a bunch of shorts that I really enjoyed and most important she loved cheese >> and she was nerdy and those were two really important things for me.
54:55
I didn't I didn't I wanted I wanted real charisma, not fake charisma.
55:00
>> Um passion charisma >> and and she she was told me a story about going to Murray's cheese and eating a cheese called Hollerhawker and it blowing her mind and Holler Hawker is a cheese that I introduced to the United States.
55:13
So I'm a big believer in the force showing me the way. Yeah. >> Right.
55:17
That like that was a that was a that was a a fortuitous moment of serendipity, an important one.
55:21
Um and so I was like, let's do it.
55:24
But we're going to do this together.
55:27
I'm going to be your partner.
55:28
I'm not going to just like like the industry is all about like talent hold agreements and shopping agreements.
55:34
We're going to lock you up but take your [ __ ] and GIVE YOU NOTHING. H you'll be famous.
55:38
And I'm like I don't even [ __ ] want to be famous.
55:41
You [ __ ] [ __ ] I just want to tell a good story.
55:44
So with her I was like we'll be partners.
55:46
And she was rightfully so very concerned about being partners because she didn't want to compromise the integrity of the content. >> Yeah.
55:54
So I said, "Here's the partnership.
55:55
Let me handle the business side.
55:57
You handle the creative."
55:57
I have zero creative decision.
56:01
>> Um, and we began our journey.
56:01
And our journey was we put up some money.
56:03
We did a couple of shoots.
56:05
She wanted to partner with uh uh a traditional production company.
56:09
So I was against that at first and I still am technically, but I was against that.
56:13
But and Spirit of Collaboration was like, "Okay, we had three amazing production companies interested."
56:18
We went with one production company and uh we began pitching and I just started having the same experience.
56:25
We're in the pitch rooms and they're like, "So, a cheese monger makes cheese?" And I'm like, "No, dude. That's cheese maker."
56:30
[laughter] >> It's cheese. It's in the name. It's cheese monger. Well, what's a monger?
56:39
>> Well, have you heard of fearmonger? Yeah. What do they do? They sell fear. Exactly.
56:42
So, a cheesemonger sells cheese.
56:48
They're like like like a samo.
56:48
No, like a butcher, dude. Like a [ __ ] butcher.
56:53
[laughter] Anyway, so so all the pitches, we weren't closing.
56:58
And then so Cheesemonger Invitational is an event for all cheese mongers in the United States.
57:04
You just have to be employed as a cheesemonger.
57:05
Then the best of the best, I go through CMI Masters, which is a master level event, uh, modeled off of my dear friend Rul's, uh, world championship cheese contest called Mandel Demarage.
57:17
And so, uh, CMI Masters was coming up and we had to get the shot.
57:22
And so I'm like, we got to get the shot.
57:25
And the production company I was partnered with was like, well, we don't we don't spend money.
57:32
[laughter] And I'm like, but you're a production company.
57:34
And they're like, "No, I know. It's weird. We don't spend money." I'm like, "Oh, I get it. You're a gatekeeper. Got it. Okay, cool.
57:45
What if I spend the money?"
57:48
And they're like, "All right, but we're like not scrappy.
57:50
You know, we're Academy Award-winning production company."
57:54
I'm like, "All right, how much?"
57:55
They're like, "This much." I'm like, "Oh, wow. That is a lot of money.
57:58
[laughter] I'll bet on myself."
57:58
And I So, I put up the money.
58:00
At this point, I was about 40 grand in.
58:02
And it was during that shoot that the production company's team, the EP and her DP and all them were like, "OH MY GOD, DUDE."
58:09
LIKE, WE ALWAYS thought you were funny and interesting, but we really had no idea what your universe was like. We really didn't.
58:17
We were still figuring that out.
58:18
But holy [ __ ] you create like this.
58:20
This uni your universe is amazing.
58:23
[laughter] Let's just make the movie. And I'm like, really?
58:26
Well, they're like, "No, we're not going to make the movie.
58:27
what we're going to do was make a line budget and we're going to raise money and then we'll make the movie.
58:32
And they told me we couldn't make the movie for less than $1. 5 million.
58:35
And we went out to raise money and I wound up bringing money to the table that was ready to close. They didn't.
58:41
And so we parted ways and I and we at that point me and Sarah had to like come to come to Jesus and I was like let's just do it. Like let's do it. Let's do it. I believe in this. Let's do it. And she was like fine.
58:54
I believe in you and I believe in me. Let's do it.
58:57
So, I put up half the budget, right?
59:00
We we hired our own line producer.
59:02
We we set a budget of $600,000.
59:04
I put up half the money to get the project started.
59:06
Um, and then, uh, Le Griier AOP, like you've heard of Griier, like the organization behind the cheese, uh, gave me some money and then we found you.
59:16
Um, and you are, dude, you're [ __ ] amazing, dude.
59:21
I'm going to be really honest with you.
59:22
I was invited to your house to meet you.
59:24
I immediately fell in love with you.
59:25
You are just such a down to earth, amazing, smart, funny, interesting, real person. >> Thank you.
59:32
That flattery will get you everywhere.
59:35
[laughter] >> Well, honestly, I felt the same about you.
59:38
See, we think with along with you.
59:43
Like, it's all [ __ ] up.
59:43
It's all gatekeepers and and all of their power is in saying no and it because it makes them feel important and the like they're not doing anything for the art.
59:56
>> They're not doing in fact they're retarding the art. >> Yes.
1:00:00
>> And you know >> no innovation, no creativity, >> none of it. >> Yeah. Vanilla. Vanilla. Vanilla vanilla. Yeah. >> Yeah. No risk. >> Oh, I know.
1:00:05
Let's make another superhero movie, >> right? Or baking show. >> Baking show.
1:00:12
We need another baking need another one.
1:00:15
>> Let's do a show that's about baking, but we're going to trick you and say, is it cake or is it not cake [laughter] >> at at the same time that this is happening on that side of the house, right? >> No creativity. Copy, copy, copy, copy.
1:00:32
We have this explosion of truly create like you're the perfect example.
1:00:40
Truly creative work being done.
1:00:40
Y >> and I believe deeply there is an audience for that work.
1:00:45
I believe that there are there's a not small part of society that is like hell yeah I don't have to watch another [ __ ] baking show.
1:00:58
>> And not only that, but the the distribution is democratized and it's not even just thinking about in terms of America.
1:01:03
It's now thinking about in terms of the globe.
1:01:04
Um, and there's unequivocally, if there's one thing I learned when working at Yahoo back in the day is if one person's thinking about it, 100 people are thinking about it. Absolutely.
1:01:13
If 100 people thinking about it, a thousand people are thinking about it.
1:01:16
And and and good like good [ __ ] always finds a home. >> Totally.
1:01:23
You know, there's an author Howard Bloom who who used this great analogy which I use often and it fits with you, I think, or with what you're we're doing together.
1:01:33
And and that is if you if you take a bunch of salt and you put it into a big clear beaker, right?
1:01:43
You put a whole box of Morton table salt in there.
1:01:47
Then you boil it >> and let it cool. The salt disappears.
1:01:53
You can't see the salt anymore.
1:01:56
>> So as the beaker is sitting there, it looks like a beaker of water.
1:01:58
walk over to it with a single grain of salt and drop it in >> and [snorts] it all comes together.
1:02:12
>> And that's what we're doing >> there.
1:02:14
Like the gatekeepers, right?
1:02:17
They're looking, they're saying, "That looks like a beaker of water to me.
1:02:19
I I'm not going to try anything different with it."
1:02:23
Meanwhile, there's a huge audience there that they just can't be bothered to drop a single piece of salt in there to find out how big that audience is.
1:02:35
>> And just to be clear, if they want to make a deal with us, we'll make a deal with you.
1:02:40
You just [laughter] just you just got to pay us fair market value.
1:02:43
Um right, we're like we're going to do deals if they come to the table, but we're going to get you to the table after we prove the audience. Yeah. >> Right.
1:02:51
And that's the thing, right?
1:02:51
So, like that's where I think we're at in the in in the media economy is that like YouTube, Instagram, Tik Tok is like we'll I'll build we'll build the audience.
1:03:03
>> We'll prove the concept.
1:03:05
>> And so there's no risk takers on on the gatekeeping side, but there are toll booths >> and like I'll gladly I'll gladly make them pay the toll booth for us >> um >> to build the audience.
1:03:17
>> But you also asked a different question which was what's the movie about? Um, where was the risk?
1:03:23
Because the risk was the movie is about competitive cheesemongering. Yeah.
1:03:26
Following American cheese mongers going to France to compete in a world championship cheesemonger contest where we've never done well. >> Right. >> Right.
1:03:36
Never done well because it's European, it's French.
1:03:37
Bring it back to the beginning of the conversation.
1:03:39
Like they don't even know we have good cheese here.
1:03:42
Um, and and the cool thing I don't want to spoil the movie, right?
1:03:46
But let's just say that like also part of it was I went to the I went to the contest as a as a drug addict and alcoholic.
1:03:53
So it was an excuse to party. Never took it seriously. I just paved the way.
1:03:57
And then in recovery I decided to take it seriously and that's when we decided to make the movie.
1:04:02
Um so the question was how are we going to do with a real team helping the best cheese mongers become the greatest cheese mongers? >> Yeah.
1:04:11
>> Yeah. and and we performed really well um when we made the movie and then we went back and performed even better recently and the good news is the movie's not done and so it is done but there's still room for the credits and and we did the impossible
1:04:30
>> and watching the movie in you know the format I saw it in right we rented a theater right over here remember >> I do the movie's so much different now by the way but yes >> yeah no I know I've seen seen or been told about some of the changes, but that version like a I loved it. I loved
1:04:45
I loved watching it and I think that there's something else in our base human OS code.
1:04:54
People like kind of the competitions and you know uh you know it can be about driving an F1 car or it can be about like making the best cheese or presenting it the best way.
1:05:05
But the the comments is what I really loved.
1:05:09
Like I was just listening to everyone around me and they're like, "Yeah, I did not think like one guy said to the other one, "Well, you know, I know Jim and he said that we should come."
1:05:23
And I was like, "Okay, I'm I'm going to go."
1:05:24
And he's like, "That was really really good." Tell me.
1:05:29
[laughter] So, it's funny that you said that.
1:05:31
I am at a stage in my life where I'm just making things because I need to make them.
1:05:35
And so it's not about the result, it's about the process, it's about the journey.
1:05:40
It's like what it's all about.
1:05:43
>> At that same uh viewing, there was a a couple in front of me >> and and the woman was just like losing her mind >> and I was like convinced she was in the cheese business. Yeah.
1:05:53
Because it was like with each with each scene there was like a gasp or an awe or a laugh.
1:05:57
It was as if she knew the Yeah.
1:06:00
the the people in the movie.
1:06:03
And when the movie ended, I went around.
1:06:05
She's like, "Oh my" She's like, "Oh my god." Um, that was great.
1:06:09
I'm like, "Are you in the cheese business?"
1:06:11
She goes, "No, I didn't even know what a cheese munger was yesterday."
1:06:13
[laughter] And I was like, "Oh my god, we're totally on to something here."
1:06:19
And I think the movie is not just about cheese.
1:06:25
It's about in the same theme as everything we've been talking about today. Yeah.
1:06:29
which is being passionate. Yeah.
1:06:31
Having purpose, like not taking no for an answer, like believing in yourself.
1:06:37
>> That's the dirty little secret, right?
1:06:39
Because that's why she was gasping.
1:06:42
That's why because you saw that in the participants. You saw that in you.
1:06:45
You saw that in everyone that was in that movie.
1:06:51
>> And that's what people respond to, I think. Right.
1:06:54
>> More so now than ever. >> Yeah.
1:06:56
>> Actually, I think we need heroes.
1:06:56
And our heroes need to show up not as like white men with good hair and a cape.
1:07:00
I think heroes need to show up in a lot like we need more lassis. You know what I mean?
1:07:06
We need more we need some more like off color like furry weird heroes.
1:07:14
>> And and not even that.
1:07:14
We just need people who don't think that saying, "Oh, nothing's going to work.
1:07:20
The world's going to end."
1:07:22
Well, you know, we need some people and I'm not talking about being panglossy in here.
1:07:27
I'm talking about what does that word mean? >> Uh, so Dr.
1:07:31
Panglos came from Vololtater's Candid. Okay.
1:07:35
>> His attitude was that we live in the best of the best of all possible worlds. >> Okay.
1:07:41
>> And so >> that's not true. >> Of course not. [laughter] >> Okay. Good.
1:07:46
>> And and Voltater kind of made that point in the book Candid because Dr.
1:07:49
Panglos is like there's earthquakes and fires and people after them to kill them and Dr.
1:07:58
Pangalas is just going along saying no no no we live in the best of all possible worlds.
1:08:03
So that's the caricatur caricature type of optimism. Right?
1:08:07
I believe that what I am is a rational optimist. >> Yes.
1:08:16
>> Does does it mean that everything's going to work out? Absolutely not. >> No.
1:08:22
Does it mean that even if we make these great strides and great progress that we aren't going to still have a bunch of [ __ ] problems? Of course it doesn't.
1:08:32
But it means that we little humans putting our minds together can come up with miraculous things.
1:08:38
We can come up with better explanations, better conditions.
1:08:43
Does that mean we're going to have no problems? Of course not.
1:08:45
But they're going to be better problems. >> I want problems.
1:08:49
That's where the magic happens. >> Exactly. >> Yeah. Remain teachable.
1:08:53
>> Problems are portals to discovery. >> Yes.
1:08:56
>> And like everyone, oh no, we couldn't do that.
1:08:59
That would that would cause a problem. Good. >> Good. Good. >> Yes. Disrupt. >> Cause some problems.
1:09:05
>> Because if you don't, you're just Look, life is movement. Stasis is death.
1:09:08
As you're moving, you're taking risks.
1:09:13
[laughter] >> The platform that you're helping me rise up to is this idea of believe in yourself. bet on yourself.
1:09:19
Uh believe anything is possible and hard work and practice matters. >> Totally.
1:09:26
>> That's that's hard work and practice. Practice and hard work.
1:09:28
>> But but you know the thing is I think that what stops so many people is my friend Andy Duke has written several books about this.
1:09:35
She was the poker champion and she puts it this way.
1:09:36
What stops so many people dead in their tracks is what she calls resulting.
1:09:41
And by that she means like you and I play a hand of poker, right?
1:09:47
I lose >> and then I vow I'm never gonna play poker ever again cuz I lost.
1:09:52
I resulted from that one time.
1:09:57
>> That's looking at the world like it's a snapshot.
1:09:59
Y >> the world is a movie.
1:10:00
It is a neverending movie >> where the cast changes, where the topic of the movie changes, but it's a movie. It keeps moving on.
1:10:12
And like people in my old business, asset management, like we had this horrible quarter. Who the [ __ ] cares? Are you in this?
1:10:21
What's your time horizon?
1:10:23
I always say to people, my time horizon is infinite. >> Amen.
1:10:29
>> Is that where you come with the Is that where you came up with the name? >> Yeah, pretty much. Yeah.
1:10:31
Um and it wasn't even mine. I stole it.
1:10:33
It was our first big client.
1:10:38
>> And um he was You would have loved this guy. Talk about authentic.
1:10:40
So I had to fly all the way to New Mexico because he made a fortune selling his gold company to Barracks Gold.
1:10:50
>> And so like you know three planes, two cars and three mules later I find his place in the middle of nowhere.
1:10:59
>> And this guy is just amazing. His wife is amazing. His kids are amazing. And so I sit down.
1:11:05
He's like in his 70, this is a long time ago.
1:11:07
and he's like in his 70s and so what have I done?
1:11:09
You know, I'm the young guy.
1:11:11
I'm 30 whatever at this time.
1:11:13
I brought him these like really conservative portfolios and and and he's looking at me and every inch the rancher, you know, and he took me up in his plane to show me how he finds gold fields and explains the how the earth looks different. Talking about an artist. >> Yeah.
1:11:32
I mean, you got to see you got to see things a little differently. >> Exactly. Right.
1:11:35
Anyway, so he's like looking at all the material and he's like, "Why the [ __ ] did you bring these conservative things to me?"
1:11:42
And I went, "Well, I kind of thought, you know, you're in your 70s.
1:11:46
You don't want to take a lot of risks."
1:11:47
And he points to the table next to the couch we're sitting on.
1:11:52
And it's covered overflowing with pictures of his kids, his grandkids, and his greatg grandkids.
1:11:57
And he looks at me, gets this big smile on his face, and he points and he goes, "My time horizon is infinite."
1:12:07
>> And I'm like, "I love you."
1:12:10
>> And I've been using it ever since.
1:12:10
And it really changes the way you think.
1:12:14
[snorts] >> Also, in terms of like optimism and pessimism, I I you know, this idea of like the glass is half full or the glass is half empty. >> Yeah.
1:12:23
>> I'm just really stoked I have a glass.
1:12:26
I'm just really stoked to have a glass. >> Cheers to that.
1:12:27
I've got glasses >> and I I keep the glass clean cuz I don't know what's going to go in it. >> That's right. >> Um but I'm ready.
1:12:35
>> Well, Adam, this has been like incredible.
1:12:37
Even more even more incredible than I was anticipating.
1:12:41
>> I'm just super stoked that you're doing it with the video now. >> Yeah.
1:12:44
>> Like this is great cuz I'm a seeing person. >> Yeah.
1:12:46
Now, we always get to the fun last question in Infinite Loops. Okay.
1:12:50
And that is we're going to wave a wand.
1:12:54
We're gonna make you the absolute emperor of the world. Couple of rules. >> Okay.
1:12:59
>> You can't kill anybody. >> Okay.
1:13:01
>> You can't put anybody in a re-education camp. Okay.
1:13:04
>> Well, maybe if they [ __ ] with your last name, you could put them there for a day or two. >> Fair point.
1:13:09
>> But what you can do is we're going to hand you a magical microphone.
1:13:14
>> You can say two things into it.
1:13:14
It'll auto translate into everybody's dreams on the planet.
1:13:19
They're going to wake up whenever their next day is and they're going to say, "You know, I've just had two of the best ideas ever."
1:13:27
And unlike all those other times, I'm going to actually start acting on these ideas today.
1:13:34
What two things are you going to accept in the world?
1:13:40
>> Leaders lead, lead with love. >> I love them both. Adam, thank you so much.
1:13:46
This has been so much fun.
1:13:46
And I think we're gonna do really great together. >> We already are. This has been awesome. Thanks so much. >> All right. Cheers.