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Something like 70% of the world uses second-hand clothing.
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Dozens of countries it's the main item that they buy but you know when people are living on a few dollars a day, it's the different benefits of our industry.
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Again, no one [music] really know notices or or sees much is the environmental benefit.
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All the water and greenhouse gases [music] it takes to create new garments.
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Uh the charitable benefit provides affordable clothing to to folks that otherwise really would have no option.
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You travel and you walk in you know where people live and you see just how ubiquitous second-hand really is.
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>> [music] >> Hi everyone.
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I'm Nick Tewell of O'Shaughnessy Ventures and I will be guest hosting Infinite Loops today.
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Jim is out currently being uploaded to computer.
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Today we're talking about the hidden industry of donated clothing.
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>> [music] >> Joining me today are experts in the field Eric Steuben, Marissa Adler, and Brian London.
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Please enjoy the conversation. All right.
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So I'd love to I'd love for you guys to tell me exactly how this second-hand global economy works.
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And for a lot of people that don't know about it, maybe the best way to go about it is to walk me through what happens after you drop off a bag of donated clothing to a Goodwill or Salvation Army.
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So in addition to my day job and my industry position, another role I have is um a baseball coach for Little League.
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And so I bring that up because you know, last week I was looking in our bag and I realized there was a bunch of t-shirts in there.
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I had some extra uniforms and also t-shirts and like a a fleece in there, too.
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And no one no one claimed them.
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And that's a moment there's a lot of moments like this where it comes up in daily life where it starts to seem like clothing really is almost starting to be seen as disposable.
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Almost like a Kleenex or something.
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And then another moment I think about it is like we were at the beach for uh what was it?
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Whatever holiday, Easter.
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And you see these silly shirts, you know, like you got crazy shirts and it's almost just like any message you have just becomes a t-shirt.
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It's almost like it really is just just like printing t-shirts.
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So, I bring that up because you were talking before about like hidden economies.
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And like you see everyday shirts and you know, all the way here I was looking as I walked and I started walking that to go up there.
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But I you know, driving down or up, whatever I was doing.
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First of all, all the clothing stores and then I started to look at each person wearing clothes and started to think like I started looking at them thinking like, how long they wear that shirt? Where is it going to go?
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Just cuz I knew we were coming here.
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Um It's It really is a fascinating story because you see them all the time.
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Everyone you look at is wearing something.
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But the story before and after is a fascinating story that really never gets told.
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So, I mean a little bit more like I think public starting to look at it a little more.
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But um Yeah, I bring that up because so I guess we're going to get into that story.
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So, when you look at the shirt, what happens before and I'm not an expert on this side, but that book Travels of a T-Shirt, shout out Pietra Rivoli, great book.
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Tracks like the globalized production of a t-shirt, right?
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So, you got cotton grown in Texas, it goes to another country where it gets spun and then made into the cloth and then dyed and all this.
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So, there's all of that that goes into it.
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A huge amount of resources that go into it.
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And the volume of it So, that whole machine has just grown enormously and Versed has all kind of interesting statistics and as she can say, she really frighteningly paints that picture well, but it's a staggering amount and the story of what happens after someone's done with it.
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So, people don't really think too much about it, right?
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People tend to give it to Goodwill or um, you know, another local charity and then they think it's just kind of they most people think that store sells it to people in need, which is a fair >> I always thought.
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>> Yeah, fair assumption.
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But long ago, even before this recent influx of huge volumes of fashion, um they got way more than they could ever serve the public with and monetizing it through thrift stores and then downstream, which we'll talk about, became, you know, the best method to monetize all their programs, their job, um training programs, and a host of other charities.
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So, anyway, so to get back to the question, because they can only use a certain amount, and I'm not sure what the current numbers are, but traditionally we would say maybe a quarter of it, 20% might sell to folks here domestically, then the rest goes down a path that I think is equally, probably more interesting than the journey that it took to become a shirt.
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So, at that point it'll get consolidated into bales of used clothing, so we call it salvage, mixed rags, or different names for it.
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And it'll um end up getting sorted somewhere, and we can get into the history of that as much as you want, but it used to get sorted here in the United States, and as the cost of doing That's why I say sorting and Eric Eric will give, you
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know, much more detailed picture of that, but uh essentially the job then is all this stuff has, over the years, the same entrepreneurial spirit that created that huge fashion boom, which became fast fashion problem, also has, over the years, created much of the solution. And so that
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And so that solution involves finding um a home for all those pieces.
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And so we get all the numbers, but between being reusable here or somewhere else around the world, being repurposed, being recycled, and increasingly we're looking at this world of what else how can you really turn that into new material?
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So, it goes all over the world.
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Um some of it goes all over the world and then comes back to the US.
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Some of it goes across the world to get sorted most efficiently, and then um to another home, and then sometimes it crosses borders again, and then it'll get repurposed.
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So, there's infinite stories, infinite loops that these items go through.
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It happens every day in the the volumes really are staggering.
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So, I mean, what are we talking about in terms of volume?
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>> Um just coming from the United States any range of time is good, but you think about this in tonnage, right?
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>> I think the stat that I've heard is about 2.
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8 billion pounds annually.
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That was the last EPA stat that I recall. Is that about right?
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>> Yeah, when you I think of this in terms of tonnage because of the scale.
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I there's sort of a little bit of a difference when you're in the industry, you think in terms of pounds cuz that's how things are traded often, but when you're looking at this from a systems view, looking at it from the tons perspective is more meaningful to a you know, a waste management profes- professional.
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But 17 million tons were generated as waste um back in 2018, and we don't really have more official numbers um as of then, but it's it's a lot.
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>> What's the EPA stat that they've always quoted? The Is it 3. 8 or 2. 8 billion?
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I can't I'm having a hard time recalling that.
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I don't know if there's We can If we can look in the background, but there's a stat that's that at the EPA is always talking about, and they use typically use the number. I think they say that 3.
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8 billion pounds of textile waste are donated, recycled that's captured by large charities like Goodwill, um blue chip charities, private sector collectors that go through the reverse supply chain including US recyclers of textile >> So, for for for people listening, the reverse supply chain, talk about what what is that?
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What do you mean by that?
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And is that the recycling that happens with these donated textiles?
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>> Yeah, I mean, you know, just picking up on Brian's example.
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So, somebody gives away a sweatshirt that, you know, it might be because they didn't you know, wasn't quite the right fit, or it could be that they used to wash the car and the dog with it, um and it's reached it's real end of life.
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So, they go uh and donate that to a charity.
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Charity will look at that and decide whether it ends up in their thrift environment or not.
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And then that often, if it doesn't end up in the thrift environment, it will make its way to a US or an international textile recycler, like Brian said.
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They'd bail that material, um and then it's sold on a spot market basis to recyclers around the world that then sort that material for highest use values.
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And that's traditionally, you know, how our industry has functioned for uh decades.
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You know, sorting material for highest use values, extracting everything from at the top end reusable quality clothing down to wiping rags and recycled fibers, um that uh are are used in many household products like carpet batting and insulation for the hood of your automobile.
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>> So, if you look at it from a kind of a very simplistic perspective, the average consumer will drop off their their unwanted clothing or textile items to, you know, a thrift store or into a clothing bin.
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That material, some of it gets sold domestically back to consumers here through thrift markets.
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Uh the rest of it gets bailed.
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It gets exported to some There are some concentrated hubs across the world where there's a lot of sorting and grading that happens.
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And then it gets sent into reuse, um reclaim wiping cloth, and fiber recycling.
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I think those are the main things now. >> main main buckets. >> Yeah. Okay.
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So, about, you know, the the the stats are about 45% of all the post-consumer textiles that are collected are funneled into a reuse channel.
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Glo- like you know, at you know, just looking at this top-down holistically, where where wherever in the world that reuse happens, 30% goes into reclaimed wiping cloth, which is basically you take a T-shirt, you you cut it up, you take out all the metal parts, and you resell it into an industry that uses it for cleaning or or wiping.
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>> What are What are some of the typical industries?
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>> Automotive, you have, you know, petroleum industry, the agricultural industry, um in the hospitality industry.
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There's there It's It's actually one of the secret, you know, underpinnings of the used textile trade in my opinion cuz people just don't realize that that industry even exists.
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And it And it There's a lot of benefits that offsets the need for new wiping cloth material, new production, or like paper products, and things like that.
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>> I think reclaimed wipers are roughly about half of all wiping rags sold.
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And uh there's a little fun fact, but there's actually uh more than a half a dozen different grades of wiping rags.
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So, depending on absorbencies and thing absorbency rates and things of that nature, if it has to pick up a heavy viscous oil material, or it's to you know, you're cleaning up paint, there's different preferences for different industries.
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>> Yeah, it's highly technical. They're tools.
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>> It's a whole like um sector of industry.
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So, yeah, I don't know if we've done an intro, but so, I have my private company with Adam Shapiro, but I I also currently serve as president of SMART, that's Secondary Materials and Recycled Textiles Association.
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Eric was a past president, and was on the board with me.
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>> And so, this is the This is the trade association.
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>> Yes, we represent kind of the whole spectrum of folks that handle this material one way or another.
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If you're collecting it, sorting it, exporting it, importing it, repurposing it.
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Yeah, so the wiper division is a whole chapter of our industry that I'm not an expert in.
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We'll we'll move the material.
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Uh Eric will, you know, has been sorting that material for a long time.
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But yeah, it's a whole world of its own, and interfaces with a lot of big industries, too, which I'm sure they probably don't know the whole background of it either.
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But you know, just be clear cuz we we amongst us use different terminology.
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I'm thinking like when we say post-consumer textile, that's like a fancy word.
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It just means a shirt once I give it. >> Old clothes. Consumer. Old clothes. >> Um yeah, old clothes.
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So, and that terminology can we have different words for what we mean there, but so be a post-consumer textile, so >> And it also includes anything that we wear.
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I like to describe it as anything we wear, meaning footwear, handbags, belts, accessories.
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It really covers the full gamut of every everything we wear. >> Yeah.
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>> Yeah, there's there's post-indus- when you're thinking in terms of how waste management professionals classify waste, there's post-industrial, which is like off the factory, it's like cutting scraps or things like that.
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Pre-consumer, so like all the things that the brands overproduce or don't end up selling um through in their retail stores.
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All that's considered pre-consumer, which is a subsegment of post-industrial.
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And then the vast majority of the waste comes from post-consumer.
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That's everything that's been sold, worn, used, and no longer wanted by the consumer. >> Yeah.
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But so we're looking at these billions of pounds of post-consumer textiles.
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When we say reuse, it's useful I think just to kind of conceptualize what that really means.
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And I mean the stats I've seen, something like 70% of the world uses second-hand clothing.
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So I mean that probably includes US consumers that buy from thrift, but dozens of countries it's the main item that they buy, you know, when people are living on a few dollars a day, it's really the only affordable option.
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So that's something in the the profile that in in the book, you know, the different benefits of our industry again, that no one really no- notices or or sees much is the environmental benefit, which we can get into that, but you know, all the water and greenhouse gas that takes to create new garments.
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Uh the charitable benefit, right?
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So I don't even know how many billions of dollars go to Goodwill, Salvation Army, powering huge amounts of workforce training and other services like that.
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>> And even the for-profit sector often has a charitable aspect to it. >> Sure, yeah.
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>> Just wanted to mention that.
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>> get back to that in a second because the collection part is is a huge question, too.
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But yeah, the third the third big benefit is that it provides the affordable clothing to to folks that otherwise really would have no option.
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So you see that every time and and we can get into this, too, about the you know, some of the um barriers to trade a lot of times, but you'll see every time they try to impose a ban or restriction on used clothing in these countries, the people get up in arms because it's such a highly desired product.
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And sometimes there's different forces at play, but it's all around the world.
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It's it's a highly desired item.
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>> looked at it in the following way in that demand always told the overwhelming story.
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I mean, demand for these second-hand products is global and like you alluded to Brian, you know, 2/3 I believe of Africa lives on less than uh $2 a day.
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So, you could really see especially when you travel there and not not for safari, but when you really you know, when you travel and you walk in you know, where people live and you see just how ubiquitous second-hand really is.
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It really gives you a distinct impression and you see the demand and it's not only Africa.
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I mean, it's across the Americas.
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It's throughout the world and and it's also interesting to point out that today in the United States, right?
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This is the the moment for second-hand really since COVID, but thrift and vintage almost have never been hotter.
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So, it you know, I feel like there's a lot of uh yeah, demand is just is global and as well as in the United States today.
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I mean, it's really uh you know, all-time fever pitch for for second-hand clothing.
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>> a funny thing too in that between COVID and all the different changes, societal changes, second-hand has really maintained its physical presence, right?
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It's like a lot of a lot of businesses will get pushed out by like an Amazon where you can easily order something and there are efforts um online, you know, to to have thrift online.
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We have ThreadUp and such companies like Poshmark, Mercari, thank you.
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They're all working at to make it more online, but it really is largely still an in-person experience.
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So, a lot of the in-person shopping is thrift because it's there's something unique about those items.
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So, there's something nice about that whole process.
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So, yeah, for that reason and probably a lot of other reasons of you know, authenticity and getting unique items in a world where you know, fast fashion blows through like uniform or also like >> and vintage, has there been a change so it's as hot as ever, but has there also been a change in where it's happening?
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You know, I think it's like when you think of like high-end vintage, you think of like, you know, metropolitan areas like New York or Paris or London or LA, and I know Japan has a big Americana vintage market, but like is this happening in other places as it continues to be like a steadfast thing that consumers want or or or grow?
15:43
>> My sense is is that there is, you know, a large global demand for American vintage.
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I mean, Americana global American fashion is, you know, a a big part of global fashion today, and it continues to be a lot of demand throughout the world for American vintage.
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Vintage the term vintage has changed a lot over the last decade.
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Vintage typically sometimes means, you know, >> does vintage mean?
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>> Yeah, vintage I mean, I think in the past, well, when I first started in this industry in the '90s, it meant '40s and '50s and sometimes even '60s as a decade in terms of what you were looking for, but obviously as time advances, you
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know, that change is now '90s is popular and and different, you know, fashions, styles, and what the vintage crowd is looking for, whether it's, you know, flare leg, skinny leg jeans, that changes, of course, annually. So,
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So, >> As you're shorting the stuff, you you you kind of have to be up on this.
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>> Yeah, I mean, for the companies that sell it and deal in those markets, they have to be very aware of what they're selling and and uh what they're collecting or they're not going to find it, but yeah, the the world is always looking for American vintage, and there seems to be continual demand for this, although that changes what, you know, >> What constitutes it? Yeah.
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What are the What is this staying on this little line?
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Like, what are the taste preferences for second-hand clothing that's being sold in vintage and thrift shops maybe in the United States versus what Latin America or Africans prefer or Eastern European countries prefer if the second-hand donations make it that way.
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Are there taste preferences across geographies?
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>> I mean, my sense is there's a difference in the post-consumer or what, you know, the old clothes that you'll find in Europe are slightly different from that found in the United States.
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It has a little bit to do, you know, with the styling of of each market.
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I've heard people in our industry say that the market for t-shirts or what we call the industry jargon is polo, the market for polos or t-shirts is a bit different from Europe compared to the United States.
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Northern Europe, the the climate's a bit cooler, so there's more heavies or heavyweight winter fall type clothing sold in those markets.
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So, you get a little bit more of that in the post-consumer textile waste.
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Of course, if you're shopping for vintage clothing and you happen to live in the north of Europe, you're you might look for warmer clothes.
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You're looking for sweaters, things of that nature.
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So, it really has a lot to do with the markets that these shoppers are are in, but yeah, there's definitely differences between the major markets that supply second-hand clothing cuz fashion's slightly different all over the world.
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>> That's why sorting gets really complicated sometimes, but it's also why, you know, there's a home for almost everything that is in a bale, basically.
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But, there's cultural preferences and different end markets.
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There's climatic, you know, differences.
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There's trends that the industry always has to be on top of for when they're sorting and grading.
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I think all of those things come into play, and so, you know, how a bale gets sorted and who it's sent to is is highly, highly tailored.
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>> Yeah, so Eric and Ken could go through all the different items, but you know, largely it's a story of American soft power influence throughout the world.
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So, in a lot of country, I mean, I think in most markets, a lot of times they'll, because of our, you know, because of Hollywood, our sports stars.
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Just like a lot of people here, they'll be looking to have a LeBron James jersey or Jalen Brunson Go Knicks, you know, jersey because the American culture is is kind of what they're buying also, right?
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And at the time of this taping >> The Knicks are in game two. >> Okay.
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>> [laughter] >> Yeah, good luck tonight.
19:30
And so, yeah, it's I guess traditionally over the deck and, you know, as America's role in the world changes or doesn't change, I mean, that's been sort of a constant because obviously we've a major force around the world.
19:42
Definitely culturally still and I think that plays a lot into it, but each country and each region has their own what whether it's religious, cultural weather, you know, climate issues.
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They'll have that their specific items that they want and so Eric has, you know, and he can tell more about his company unless you already gave the intro, but you know, they were the have been the longest running sorter here in North America.
20:02
So, they rely expertise in terms of when you get all this stuff from anywhere.
20:06
So, and our company, you know, we we're have been a supplier of his for a long time.
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We'll send him items from anywhere from from Virginia or Connecticut or, you know, wherever and then whatever it is, he'll figure out how to get the most value out of it.
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So, his team there will will identify because to make this work with the margins that are so small in our industry, it's really it's a it's a penny business really make it to huge volume as we talked about.
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But, you know, if you're not really on top of it and not finding each item it's correct home, you're not going to last.
20:37
So, that's that's really the trick and the art of it and it takes a lot of expertise and and I don't know, maybe Eric you could speak more about >> visualize the sorting process. Who's doing it? Where are they doing it?
20:50
>> So, our the sorting process is probably, you know, the best way to explain it is it's not that different than most recycling businesses.
20:55
It's high volume, thin margin as a business and we as a textile recycler are a little bit different than most conventional recycling cuz in conventional recycling, they might make eight or nine different differential, you know, differentiating products.
21:12
For example, in if you're collecting metals, there's probably, you know, roughly half a dozen to a dozen different metals. Same with paper.
21:18
But in the textile recycling business, we make 300 SKUs or 300 different products.
21:26
So, we used to like to say that this is not just a MRF, material recycling facility, but a super MRF facility, cuz we were making 300 of these different products.
21:36
And yeah, you know, we outlined earlier the different percentages of second-hand clothing that we might sell to developing countries, wiping and fiber.
21:44
So, within each of those categories, we're making hundreds of products for export or for consumption.
21:51
And we're not physically changing the form of those garments, but we're wholesaling it to those that do.
21:58
For example, we'll wholesale it to wiper company that might specialize in cutting wipers.
22:02
And whether that company previously, a lot of those companies were in the US today, they're more often overseas.
22:10
Same in the fiber industry, as well.
22:13
>> You You receive these by the truckload or by container?
22:15
And And how fast can you sort a container?
22:18
>> Everything is about scale in our world.
22:21
We Our company was recycling about a trailer load a day up until uh up until 2019.
22:28
And prior to that, closer to two trailers a day.
22:31
So, yeah, I mean, everything's got We were a mid-size player in this industry.
22:36
There are companies globally that do many, many times that volume.
22:41
And uh you know, and and really scale is the key there. >> How many people?
22:47
>> You know, in uh the States, we were 45 people.
22:50
And internationally, uh labor is a very key component.
22:53
Labor is drives the whole industry.
22:56
It's very labor intensive.
22:57
And it's um you know, there's usually a stat that one employee can handle about a ton um or half a ton rather post consumer textiles a day or that about half a ton can be sorted per employee per day and that's a generally a pretty good metric when you can judge the efficiency of a recycling.
23:16
>> It is a fascinating thing to see like a trained sorting employee they're making like I don't know dozens of decisions a minute you know that's our way to make it work and it is an interesting maybe we can talk a little bit more about the technology piece but it's interesting because of all these industries like you look around at any industry between now and 50 years ago and most are totally different.
23:36
Ours a lot of it still because it's the human touch I don't quite even really understand why it can't hasn't been more mechanized.
23:43
it can't hasn't been more mechanized. I mean there's different equipment that can move goods in different ways and you know with all talk about like how does AI affect this or AI affect that to date as far as I know from everything I see most of the sorting of this stuff whether it's here or in Karachi or Dubai or Honduras it's all kind of the same process and I bring up Marissa because so she's been an invaluable addition to
24:08
smart so she came on our board I don't know five or six years ago not from this traditional background so Eric and my families have been in this you know for many decades and Marissa I guess you'll go through her history and background but comes from a different perspective and came to this through a different path and she really has her um thumb on the pulse of like all the a lot of new stuff in the industry
24:31
that's looking at whether it's well maybe you can talk more about it anyway it's that's why she's been a really important addition to smart because there's this whole new world which we can talk more about at length if we want
24:42
but um it looks at the technology side in different areas and so that's kind of the question is like what role does that play does it can does it add on and enhance our existing infrastructure that works quite well for what it does
24:57
but for the new challenges of today, this is not what you want to talk about a little bit about your background and the >> Yeah, cuz like when when I hear there are identical systems across different geographies around the world and it's been being done the same way for a very long time and there's a and there's volume involved, I think well, there's probably room to to have so many types of improvements. Just like you people often say AI, but
25:19
Just like you people often say AI, but computer vision specifically, it feels like it can be a boon for this type of work and not necessarily replace someone or sorter, but maybe you said one sorter does about half a ton or a half a trailer at >> Half a ton. >> Half a ton.
25:34
You know, what if they can now with the assistance of like some sort of computer vision, they can they can scale that to, you know, two tons or five tons.
25:42
>> And there are technologies that are in developmental stages to support with that.
25:47
There's There's different levels of of technology and and automated scanning.
25:52
One that's the furthest along is to identify fiber composition and the intent of that is to speed up the sorting of textiles into different bales.
26:03
Like is it 100% polyester? Is it 100% cotton? Is it a 50/50 blend?
26:07
And then those bales of And let me be clear, non-rewearable textiles cuz we always want to follow the waste hierarchy.
26:16
You know, my background is in in municipal solid waste management.
26:18
So, that's sort of the lens that I come to this area from.
26:24
You want to follow the waste hierarchy, do reduction, reuse, repurposing, and then recycling.
26:28
So, the technology use the most of developed for this along technology now is near infrared sensing that has been used in traditional material recovery facilities on plastics and paper and packaging for many years.
26:45
It's being honed for textiles.
26:45
So, you just sort polyester bale, cotton bale, and then those would theoretically go off to a recycler who would recycle each of those um fiber bales into whatever products they create.
26:58
And that hasn't really developed yet because we've gotten a bit of a chicken or egg situation here because those recyclers are very new chemical recycling technologies and they haven't really commercialized yet.
27:11
So, there's a bit of a mismatch on um supply and demand there in sort of the the collaborative market build.
27:18
And then on the sorting for reuse side, you have some of the new um computer vision and hyperspectral cameras that are being used paired with algorithms and and AI, you know, learning systems that can start to identify, you know, this is a shirt or this is um a, you know, a pair of pants or something.
27:40
And on top of that, say like, oh, there's a flaw here, there's a stain here, there's a rip here.
27:44
But, it still has to be paired with the mechanical movement of the item cuz you kind of need a 360° view and even more than that, maybe even like an inside out view of each garment one by one.
27:59
And so, at that point, you need a person anyway to do that until robotics are advanced enough where they can do that and we're nowhere near that.
28:08
So, even if the AI algorithms and the hyperspectral cameras are ready and they're being developed, you still need to pair it with the the mechanical functioning of a of a facility.
28:19
And so, I think that's the stage that we're at now.
28:24
There's a lot of pilots going on, there's a lot of development, there's a lot of investment in that area and I do think that's the future.
28:29
We're just not quite there yet.
28:32
>> It really is like a pivotal moment from our industry standpoint, like from an industry association because traditionally something unique about our industry is that we move an enormous amount of volume all over the world, all these numbers that we're talking about.
28:46
But, traditionally we've always been a group of small family businesses like Eric's family, my family, and it does hundreds of of others.
28:52
And what we found recently because of I guess because of increased attention for whatever reason, um now all of a sudden we have, you know, huge brands coming in and getting involved and they're throwing huge amounts of investment at things.
29:06
And then you have policy makers who can talk about, you know, the legislation they're passing in California, they're looking at New York and Washington state um legis essentially legislating how textiles are collected and handled post-consumer textiles.
29:21
So all of a sudden you have these small companies that as a force we do I mean as a group of companies as a trade association we do a pretty good job of I think punching above our weight in terms of advocating for our members and open trade for our product.
29:34
But all of a sudden there seems to be enormous players involved and a fear we have sometimes is number one, how do we incorporate that without destroying part of what's already working?
29:45
And how do we get our voice heard when you have these you know, a lot of times that I'll hear like a policy coming in some country somewhere or a big effort made by, you know, a huge investment in a certain recycling technology and it seems like they hadn't even really consulted this group of companies that's processing all this material.
30:04
So that's kind of a big question right now is like, how do we work all together cuz how does private sector work together to >> How do how do all the pieces come together?
30:18
How does private sector work with all the other stakeholders including uh charities, including innovative partners to really to grow the pie for everyone.
30:26
And just to put another, you know, underline Brian's point, my back of the envelope calculation there is about 10 billion pounds that the traditional reuse markets have handled globally for decades.
30:39
You know, 10 bi- where did we get that number?
30:41
If you look at the US, that number that I believe is correct.
30:45
If we went If we had the EPA website here, I think it says about 3. 8.
30:46
There's about a somewhat of an equal number in the EU, and then I pencil in Asia, including Japan, Australia, and then China has its own industry, and I haven't seen too many stats of what China's generating in terms of post-consumer textiles, but it's a it's a tremendous number that the industry has efficiently found a second life for for decades.
31:07
So, you know, I I I think there's a lot of innovation coming, and we've got to find new ways to do it, and they'll Innovation will always be there, and markets are willing and able, we as an industry will be there to support them.
31:20
But, yeah, this is the challenge that we face.
31:25
>> I think um the United States Building on what Eric said, the United States has the highest per capita textile waste generation rate in the world.
31:32
I think China is bigger on just a mass >> Absolutely volume side.
31:37
>> Absolutely amount, yes.
31:37
And what's important to recognize though is that we're still only recovering 15% in the United States of what gets generated as textile waste every year.
31:47
The 85% we're not collecting is going straight to landfill and incineration.
31:52
And so, there's a huge opportunity to recover those materials and find new homes for them, whether that's in reuse or or through repurposing or recycling.
32:03
And that's what a lot of the new policy that that Brian was talking about is getting at.
32:10
>> It's mostly sort of this uh it comes from the waste management perspective.
32:14
You know, extended producer responsibility, how do we get to zero waste, and how do we incentivize that the right way, and and the idea of extended producer responsibility is putting the financial onus back on the original producer.
32:30
Because then as the theory goes, they would design products to be better reused or better recycled at end of life or maybe they'll reduce how much they produce in the first place.
32:44
>> Yeah, um to to underline Marissa's point, one really interesting fact is it and this fact this stat is very universal.
32:51
I think you've heard this at when municipalities look at the percentage of when they analyze their waste streams and they look at the percentages of municipal solid waste, they almost universally find or have found that it's about 5% composed of old clothes or second-hand clothing.
33:09
That's why states like Massachusetts, I think, went into you know, they technically they put a ban of second-hand in their legislation and and you're not allowed to throw away clothing in the state of Massachusetts.
33:22
But yeah, I mean that's a great segue to EPR in California and why they've done this, right? >> Yeah.
33:29
>> Yeah, do you want to explain more about what happened in California and >> So, California was the first state in the United States to pass extended producer responsibility legislation for textiles governing the textile waste stream the way I just described.
33:42
The producers have to pay usually a per unit fee into a centralized organization called a producer responsibility organization. >> Who's that owned by?
33:53
>> It's a usually stipulated as a non-profit and the whole purpose of that non-profit is to fiscally manage the recovery system and issue the contract and um usually the the board of directors is is is brands who are you know, producers of the textiles and apparel, the covered products.
34:13
And they're they have to answer to the state agency.
34:17
So, there's always a oversight agency.
34:19
In California, it's CalRecycle which is a part of the CalEPA organization.
34:26
And so, there's the once the law is passed, then CalRecycle will develop regulations which just um add additional clarity onto the law and maybe put in some performance standards on how the program needs to operate or what metrics it needs to hit.
34:43
Um but then other than that, the PRO is the one sort of looking at the system, figuring out how it's going to develop a program to comply with what's in statute or what's in the regs, and then a board of directors that kind of oversees that, and then they get the funding from the brands, and so the brands are paying either per piece or per kilogram.
35:00
It's different in different places.
35:01
Um so California was the first state in the US to pass that law, I think in the end very end of 2020 five four >> 2024 >> Yeah, that's what I remember.
35:15
>> Um and it's a very long time frame, so it actually won't be implemented fully like the the residents of California won't see the effects of this until about 2030, and producers won't pay into it cuz there's a lot of >> They're still doing designing the regulations around it, right?
35:28
>> regulatory development process is too is a couple of years, the program plan is a couple of years, um fee setting, all of that.
35:35
But this is a model that's been around for many years.
35:40
>> Where else in the world has this been around?
35:42
>> Europe has um the EU mandated their member states to all adopt EPR, um and they actually do have a disposal ban across all member states that um started January 1st of 2025.
35:54
And the way that the EU is instructing its member states to comply with that ban is by adopting EPR regulations, because the last thing you want to do is implement a ban without a plan, because then you have a lot of textiles that are no longer going to landfill but have no infrastructure or funding or system to support it.
36:15
So the point of EPR is to create that.
36:18
>> And Merissa, France had the longest-running program, right?
36:20
And I think the website that you mentioned or earlier was ecotlc.
36:25
fr, but I think it's it's taken on a new URL or if we fashion, yeah.
36:30
So that program was very innovative as Marissa pointed out because it you know, it was one of the first essentially tack on a fee for the recycling of every garment is my understanding of it. It's a few euro cents.
36:46
I think it's more than between I want to say up to my head between 5 and 10 euro cents per garment that's charged to the consumer the the PRO or that group the name of the group again was refashion.
37:02
>> Collects that money and distributes it to French or companies that recycle French post-consumer textile waste.
37:07
So California, Washington states that are looking at EPR have a model in which to look at and it's also interesting to me that all of the stakeholders, right?
37:16
A part of that model or part of the solution that you've got you know, because if you think about these are huge macro issues and how could one stakeholder tackle any or or just you know, all of it.
37:29
You really need all the stakeholders working together.
37:31
You know, in concert to help alleviate or move the needle on the issue of post-consumer textile waste.
37:39
>> So with all those years of that program has been like 10 years I guess France has been doing it or more I think. Yeah.
37:44
>> Have there been any definable outcomes from it?
37:47
>> The French EPR system is hasn't been modeled as a true EPR system in in the sense that traditional kind of purists of EPR think of EPR.
37:55
So it hasn't done a lot to change the upstream design and production of textiles.
38:01
A lot of factors that go behind that including how how much the fees are and incentive and you know, is this just a cost of doing business or you know, what are the penalties things like that.
38:11
But if you look at EPR across different product categories over I don't know.
38:20
The last 20 years in the United States, if it's well-designed EPR, it has a very clear beneficial impact on the recovery rates of those items and on the design of of the products going into the system because there's a very direct financial link right back to the producer.
38:37
It gets really complicated in terms of how you structure that mechanism and it gets really complicated because there's a ton of stakeholders with varying I mean, this is this is policy, right?
38:49
This is how policy is developed.
38:51
You're always going to you're never going to have the perfect bill.
38:54
You're never going to have the perfectly worded law, but it's really important to have well-designed policy and EPR is not a magic bullet, but it has an opportunity to really infuse some capital, infuse some funding and think holistically about a system.
39:11
>> And can you just differentiate the difference between EPR and maybe we can start talking about something else which is closed loop?
39:17
>> But just before we go to that, I mean, it's also interesting to note that Europe diverts about 2x the volume of post-consumer textile waste than we do, right?
39:25
They they divert significantly more per person than we do.
39:27
They diverted at a higher rate.
39:30
I think that's what most of the EU study shows.
39:33
There's less population and that but yet they divert a similar amount and it's more per per capita of textile.
39:39
So, their diversion rate's higher.
39:43
>> Yeah, which means they're capturing more.
39:44
>> They're capturing more.
39:45
>> So, less is being thrown out. A lot less.
39:46
>> [clears throat] >> Oh, god. I got it.
39:47
>> That goes to the old, you know, everyone knows I mean, Europe politically and from a cultural perspective has always been ahead of the curve in terms of recycling.
39:56
So, they they've done a much better job of keeping old clothes out of their landfills in general.
40:02
And the EPR was sort of building on that.
40:04
>> Yeah, but so you're asking about >> Yeah, is is is it is it makes sense to talk about closed loop now or I still I kind of want to going back to like the the thrift and the and the and the second hand use so highest use value concept.
40:18
Like what We can we can tie this into maybe before earlier in the conversation, but like any insights that you you guys have taken away from like the the habits of American consumerism, seeing all this stuff, seeing so much of it come over the transom for so many years and just be like and what are your thoughts on that?
40:38
Like but either either like what do you think about American consumers specifically?
40:43
I mean the trend is is I mean the the habit is huge.
40:46
Um but yeah, you kind of sigh.
40:49
I don't I don't know any >> Uh the past.
40:54
>> [laughter] >> No, I'm kidding.
40:56
>> Yeah, I I don't I don't know. I don't or maybe not.
40:58
Maybe you just you see these truckloads of clothes come through and you're like, yeah, just >> Well, it's a river, right?
41:04
Like that I mean like I've always heard Goodwill describe it that way. It's a river.
41:07
They cannot block the river.
41:09
Any blockage will just create overflows and chaos.
41:11
I want to say that, but I also want to say we're still only capturing 15%, so don't hear that and not you know, divert your textiles and meaning, you know, donate or or or recycle.
41:22
But we today are consuming massively more textiles per capita per time period than we ever have in the past.
41:35
I mean, if you look at the consumption graph, it's almost like an exponential graph.
41:38
And that's because of the advancements in, you know, just-in-time production and fast fashion and and, you know, drop shipping, which which basically means um like like door-to-door shipping and taking advantage of direct shipments uh from the manufacturer piece by piece straight to someone's doorstep.
42:00
Um and of course all the online um you know, e-commerce platforms that we all have access to.
42:09
Um and then because it's so readily available, they can make trends and the trends have just gotten more and more and more intense and quicker and quicker and quicker.
42:20
We used to have like seasonal trends, like four year, right?
42:23
And now it's like one a week.
42:26
And so people, especially with social media, they can't be seen wearing the same thing twice on their Tik Tok or Instagram or or anything.
42:34
And so there's definitely hyper consumption mindset of American consumers and the prices dropped because of fast fashion and a lot of other factors and so they're it's more accessible.
42:44
But people are keeping things like half as long, wearing things half as long.
42:48
And so it's just this way more volume, way more turnover, but way less quality.
42:53
And so it has a much lower value in, you know, to >> Yeah, we'll get more rags and material for fiber than we will usable clothing. But that was well said.
43:05
I think that fast fashion is a is a major contributor to mass market apparel and that's the the way the industry goes and as the industry drifts towards that and there's more consumption of this, of course, the quality of of America's second hand clothing generally goes down and it's hard harder to find durable, longer lasting garments in the post consumer textile waste stream.
43:28
But yeah, you can never turn it off. You can't turn it off.
43:32
It's going to consistently flow and that's why all the stakeholders are constantly trying to look at these issues together. >> Yeah. >> Yeah.
43:40
And one of the concerns is with textile EPR legislation and potential disposal bans that come with it.
43:45
You're going to start seeing the stream that people have been throwing away and there's more there's concern that some of that is reusable, high quality, cuz some people just don't ever donate.
43:57
But the concern is that we'll see even more of the lower quality items if we're forcing people to not throw things away and instead donate them.
44:07
And so, how is that going to affect the overall economics of the system and ability to like divert for reuse?
44:13
Um it might just kind of bring down the value of the average ton.
44:19
>> Now, that's a What's the theory? I'm sorry, Marissa.
44:21
Can you give it to me Give it to us again one more time that the idea is that they're going to wipe one more time. I'm sorry.
44:28
>> Because we're going to get all the dirty socks and old underwear and things that people shouldn't really But you know, maybe there's a recycling market for it.
44:38
>> We should start with that.
44:38
What's What's appropriate to donate and what's not appropriate to donate?
44:42
>> Well, >> [laughter] >> that's going to be a big question for you.
44:44
Yeah, that's that's of interest.
44:46
>> Remember don't What What was the campaign?
44:47
>> I always would say don't judge your clothes.
44:49
Someone, you know, a smart one said that in front of a a group we were educating, I think the Northeast Recycling Coalition, and you know, they they had the term don't don't judge your clothes, donate it all.
44:58
But I you know, building on that point, Marissa, I think that, you know, every statistic that I've seen is that there is a universe of post-consumer textile waste, and as you increase diversion, so do you increase all segments of I don't know that, you know, if today we are actually recycling 15% of all post-consumer, that that means the remainder of of post-consumer that's going into landfill is necessarily all material suited for landfill.
45:27
People still make the mistake of throwing out people The average American doesn't think of clothing as something that should be donated or recycled.
45:35
Often it's tossed into the landfill, and there's a lot of examples from pop culture, you know, I keep a running tab in my mind, but it's funny.
45:44
There's a lot of examples of that.
45:44
You can see it in movies, you'll see it in books and TV shows.
45:47
It It's out there, and not everyone thinks of clothing as something that you should donate or recycle.
45:54
>> And this is a tricky point, though, because different places have different rules about what you can donate, right?
46:01
Kind of like why it's so complicated to just standardize recycling, like your curbside recycling.
46:06
Every place you go has different rules.
46:08
It's kind of like the same thing with with your textiles and your clothing.
46:12
You know, Goodwill may have one set of rules.
46:14
And And also, mind you, not every Goodwill has the same set of rules cuz they're all, you know, independently operated.
46:19
But, you know, a consignment shop obviously has different rules than a donation bin.
46:24
And so, there some places, you you know, it's hard to put out the message just donate it because some places don't don't want the things that they can't resell.
46:37
Um and until you have solutions like closed-loop recycling and, you know, a higher market demand for some of the the the fiber recycling open open-loop recycling, it does create a little bit of a drain on the on the system because then, you know, folks like um Brian and Eric are and could be inundated with a lot of really low-value things.
47:01
Um I mean, I don't want to speak for you guys, but just thinking like sort of conceptually, what would happen if you turned on that spigot?
47:11
>> Yeah, well, that also brings up the question of just this great unknown and the role or maybe I should say the lack of data pretty much to date uh for most of our history of our of our industry, you know, every company's doing their thing, they're getting stuff in, and
47:28
there haven't really been great numbers number one on so, how much is coming in from where, how much is being generated like if you do if you actually dig into so, we quote this fifth only 15% of all clothing that's discarded enters our stream. And that's an EPA stat. And so, Adam And that's an EPA stat.
47:44
And so, Adam Mersky, I've talked about this before.
47:47
I still don't quite understand like you go and you're like, well, okay, how'd you figure that out?
47:51
What are the methods behind it?
47:54
And you it's kind of opaque.
47:54
Maybe we've done more research since we last spoke about it, but it's like we don't really know.
47:58
So, we don't know how much and we don't really know what's out there in this world.
48:02
So, like that that that calculation came from somewhere and even if it's half true, it's still an enormous amount, but we don't know that and there's a lot of things we just don't know that but we're starting to look at and Merch lives in this world a lot in terms of data cuz it's you can't really do much if you don't really know the volumes coming in, what they're made of, where it's >> it is or where it's going or it's going whoa.
48:23
What are the compositions in end markets?
48:25
>> So, we've started trying to do a little more data.
48:27
There's different um groups out there looking at some and we're we're starting to get into that world.
48:32
Um >> Is it easier to do that here domestically or overseas?
48:36
>> And there's data that's out there that the US government has measured.
48:38
I mean, they have the US TIC. I have that acronym.
48:42
United States trade I forgot what it >> What data on the US side? >> I TIC.
48:48
It it I I hope I have that right.
48:51
US TIC trade data and that measures the volume of uh containers that are being exported out of the United States.
48:57
I mean, I think that was one of the key uh you know, um variables that they used in in some of that you know, in some of the EPA's construction of that those data points.
49:11
>> I think it depends on which data you're looking for.
49:13
If you're looking at at understanding textile waste generation rates and uh the composition of the textile waste stream, then doing it in the United States makes sense.
49:24
If you're looking about at, you know, traceability and understanding uh what fraction goes where, that gets really hard really fast because you can you can like, you know, put an RFID tag on a bale that's getting exported.
49:38
Um but that bale will land at the at the first port um maybe in, you know, a Karachi export processing zone, for example, in in Pakistan, which is one of the world's hubs for sorting and grading.
49:52
And then that bale gets opened and torn apart.
49:54
That RFID tracker is no longer useful.
49:57
Each piece in that bale then gets sorted and graded and mixed with materials from, you know, the UK or other places in the EU or any other place they've imported from.
50:07
And and then it'll go off to the first importing market. Maybe it's Kenya, right?
50:16
And then the importer imports that bale, then it gets opened up, resorted, redistributed through through sort of a whole chain of market players all the way down to you know, a stall owner in a second-hand market and whatever, you know, >> Even in even in neighboring countries across borders.
50:36
>> And then if it doesn't sell there, then it might get re-baled, like aggregated and re-baled and then redistributed or even just directly exported to neighboring country.
50:44
It gets really hard to start tracking where everything's going. >> Yeah.
50:49
>> And so the data and the transparency piece is a really big underpinning of the new all the new legislation we're seeing even it's fueling I think a lot of conversations at the international trade level when you're looking at the UN and the Basel Convention on how do you track and manage, again, I'm going to use the loaded word textile waste, right?
51:11
We don't It's a commodity.
51:11
It We don't like to think of it as waste because what people affiliate waste with garbage, but understanding where all that data sits and who holds all that, it's a very decentralized system of who knows what.
51:26
And there's no mandatory or very little mandatory reporting.
51:29
There's really not anyone aggregating this on a systems level to be able to understand.
51:35
>> There is some data that's collected or aggregated from as you mentioned from a trade perspective and from the volume perspective that could be, you know, in orders of magnitude give us a sense, You know, at from a value standpoint, it might be different, but for more orders of magnitude, are there hundreds of millions or X how many X tons are being exported to various processing centers or from the United States?
51:59
That information could be you know, fairly accurate.
52:03
And then the other interesting point Marissa brings up is, well, when you look at you know, the term textile waste, you know, it it's hard as a someone that processed probably a billion pounds in their career of textiles, when you look at it, you know, the demand tells the story because it's finished product.
52:20
finished product. So, a lot of what's being called waste and there is someone prominent in our industry that just wrote a piece on this and says, you know, what's being called waste waste could be they could be terming it waste because of the nature that X percent
52:33
sold in a market and then X percent had to be wholesaled, but I can assure you that the industry I can't it wouldn't be able to sell and wholesale billions of pounds annually if it if this material wasn't graded in a suitable way that then resulted in markets demanding it. And and that's really I think tells
52:54
And and that's really I think tells volumes about, you know, the products that we ship as a as an industry because it has to be right.
53:01
It has to be graded to a certain extent for the quality.
53:06
People are often surprised that second-hand clothing is not tattered or torn in most countries that it's good usable clothing that has a second life.
53:15
A garment that may have been sold for anywhere from 40 to 80 dollars retail will find its way to a developing country and in that market be sold in in the market for maybe a dollar.
53:26
So, so you know, something affordable and it gives the consumer in that country a lot of dignity and choice in being able to shop for second-hand products or for products that are unique.
53:37
>> Yeah, and for us the economics really tell the tale largely cuz I I would to in a free market, um, but it's actually even more than that because we're overcoming enormous tariffs and taxes on, um, >> Yeah.
53:49
>> Yeah, I was going to go there.
53:49
Cuz you mentioned demand, but the demand that the countries with the demand don't necessarily get the, uh, second-hand use uh, donations, right?
53:58
So, what are the forces that are going against that?
54:02
>> So, yeah, I mean, traditionally there's been some elements of of protectionism, um, which probably come from a good place, but I think miss some of the economic realities that, again, in most of Africa where people are living less than $2 a day, I forget the statistics, but it's like, you know, a used item is maybe 95% cheaper than a new item that could be created in that market and, you know, let's say in Kenya.
54:25
In my mind, it's a bit misguided, um, policy and, you know, at our trade organization, we're always working to to open markets and, you know, lower trade barriers to our product, but um, it's it's desired everywhere and and so much so that even with, you know, for example, we're just working with, uh, in Costa Rica cuz the duty there is is about 50% effectively.
54:45
They have they tackle all these other taxes with it, but it's still, you know, even beyond free trade.
54:50
So, the economics of it really tell the tale.
54:55
But, um, when you're actually looking at definitions and textile waste and what does this mean that and you start having these different organizations and policy makers and governmental organizations looking at it that don't really live the day-to-day, they could from a very good-natured
55:11
place make decisions that if you miscalculated a little bit, you could stop an entire flow of goods, which, again, in one place are waste and another place are vibrant markets of people equally places everyone's looking for, you know, it's it's it's a huge it's a huge vibrant economy at these places. You go to, you
55:27
You go to, you know, like markets in Kenya and and you see like a like, um, enormous demand for the product.
55:33
So, how big are these markets? >> Oh, I mean, tens.
55:37
>> Like like like outdoor mall size markets?
55:39
>> Um >> Or bigger or smaller?
55:42
>> It dep- I mean, if you go to the Kantamanto Market in in Ghana, it's huge.
55:47
I mean, you can walk and walk and walk all day.
55:50
It's through all the different aisles of the stalls.
55:52
Um it that's probably one of the biggest that exists. >> All second hand? >> All second hand. All second hand.
55:59
>> tens of thousands of people there. Wow.
56:01
But then even downstream, there's the there's we we just did a trip to Costa Rica where, you know, along with some folks from Goodwill, we were tracking items that we sent there.
56:07
And the the second and third degrees away all have these fascinating stories.
56:12
It'll go to another trader, then it'll go to, you know, the in Costa Rica we profiled this one charity that defunds for young women or who are victims of of incest.
56:19
The whole charity is funded by items that she finds good deals with.
56:23
And so you follow all these items even second, third degree away from that.
56:27
There's economies that aren't that, you know, that are also hard to track.
56:32
>> A lot of ancillary a lot of ancillary business activity generated from second hand that some studies I think have tried to measure.
56:38
There was a UN study a long time ago that tried to measure the ancillary industries that were generated by second hand, second hand trade, everything from moving second hand products to tailoring them in these markets.
56:52
And then, you know, and and I think more and more you're seeing that there's some vertical in in the you know, in these countries that import the materials.
57:02
And you know, maybe they're you know, even cutting rags or they're trying to you know, corporate other aspects of second hand clothing.
57:09
But yeah, it's it's such a tremendous industry.
57:13
Rivoli's book says that it's one of the most competitive industries that she had ever studied.
57:19
You know, it was was the second hand industry just with the sheer volume of competition and and truly competitive industry.
57:26
I think at the end of the day you really you wonder is, you know, if you support free and open markets, you know, it's it's something that's you know, important and and second-hand clothing certainly fits in you know, it fits into that description.
57:41
Most of the times where we've you know, the industry has seen problems, a lot of the bans seem to be like Brian pointed out a lot of to do with protectionism and it's not that different here.
57:53
There's different industries that are affected by protectionist viewpoints here in the United States, but that's that's a seems to be a major factor across the world as second-hand competes with cheap manufactured apparel from other countries that are manufacturing.
58:09
>> Yeah, let's all circle back to um the question about closed loop.
58:11
So this this whole world and this has been a pretty new world for us.
58:17
Again, this is kind of more of the world that Marissa lives in day-to-day.
58:20
So we're talking before about closed loop and there's I mentioned there's an enormous amount of investments from brands, from you know, other investment companies and I was saying to myself like why why all of this money get into this closed loop?
58:30
So by closed loop we mean actually taking a shirt, not just reusing and extending its life or repurposing it, but the actual process of turning an old shirt into a new shirt, which is way more complicated than you think for a lot of reasons.
58:41
We could probably spend a whole hour talk or you know, whole semester talking about.
58:47
But so yeah, this whole um world of closed loop fiber-to-fiber technologies has become a big like being you go to whole whole huge conference of it that's I couldn't even put a price tag on the amount that's invested in it, but today it it you know, Eric had a good visual he did with the Venn diagram before about it's really moving very little in terms of the practical economy so far.
59:09
So there's this huge amount of potential that we see, but I'll try to think to myself too like what prompted all that?
59:17
Is it Is it Is it that we feel like we're not capturing stuff in that the the 85% we assume is all low-end unusable stuff that if it entered cuz it's it is true.
59:28
Let's assume 85% were low-end stuff and we all loaded it to our graders, we would have an issue, right?
59:36
>> think that that's ever been the case because we have increased and if you look at, you know, there is a model that's out there.
59:41
If you look at the EU versus the United States, the EU diverts 2x the amount of post-consumer that we do here in the states, but their post-consumer does not veer towards only unusable clothing or material that would only be destined for the fiber industry.
59:57
So, I think there's, you know, as you increase the pie, you get all segments of textiles.
1:00:01
All segments of textiles in increase, you know, with along with it.
1:00:07
>> I think the push towards this closed-loop recycling comes from a sustainable materials management perspective of our Earth's natural finite resources and at true end-of-life, like once reuse is no longer an option and everything will eventually get there, how do we keep those materials in circulation?
1:00:26
How do we maintain the value?
1:00:29
And how do we use those to displace, you know, the production of new materials?
1:00:34
And I think that's sort of the age of where we're at right now in the textile waste management industry is looking at how do you create those infinite loops and keep materials in circulation forever?
1:00:46
And the answer cannot be found in reuse, you know, eventually it'll reach end-of-life.
1:00:54
It can't be found in mechanical recycling because of the technological limitations of mechanical recycling and and the degradation of the the natural fibers and what those fibers can be used for.
1:01:05
So, new emerging recycling processes are what we're turning to, including things like solvolysis and depolymerization and some of the the categories of recycling that are deemed chemical recycling, which is a kind of a unfortunate umbrella term cuz it creates a lot of confusion over what they actually are and there's sort of a lot of stigma around oh chemicals chemicals hazardous hazardous bad.
1:01:29
But I think that's where >> Wait a minute.
1:01:34
>> this new age approach is coming from. >> Yeah. It's a worthwhile goal.
1:01:37
I mean it represents innovation and where the industry and all the stakeholders hopefully will come together to work in it.
1:01:44
I think that's some of what's happening in various states that are trying to introduce EPR legislation.
1:01:47
It almost feels like their legislation was written with a futurist world in mind and then when the real when the real world markets and innovation catches up to some of this right regulations, then I think it it can all potentially work in harmony.
1:02:03
But uh you know, it might be a little a little ways to to until we're there.
1:02:09
>> But when you look at the economics of it and you see kind of what you know, prices would be for a material here.
1:02:13
So like let's say you got a bunch of little white stuff you can't reuse, you can't repurpose.
1:02:18
You know, you can talk a little bit about what we see or hearing about the cost of what's you know, there's interesting technologies that can sort these into the specific fiber types that could in in theory and practice on some level turn them into feedstock, but the economics of it like from from your perspective someone handling the material how do you view that and like what what would make that fit into your world view?
1:02:43
>> and I I don't you know, I think most of the professionals inside the industry when they talk about it they we we all sort of scratch our head and we wonder about the economics and how they might come into play.
1:02:53
Um it's hard to see today, but you know, markets change and so does technology and what I you know, I've always said when markets are willing and able the industry will likely find a way to support uh them.
1:03:06
But you know, at the moment it it's it's tough to find that.
1:03:08
Yeah, even from you know, I've heard things by from close loop recyclers have said there's X percentage of 100% cotton waste or X percentage of poly waste and some of that material is hard to find and it certainly seems when you hear apparel talk about, you know, they need design to marry up with the you know, the overall strategic plan to recycle more waste and there's a little bit of a dichotomy there between design sometimes and and recycling.
1:03:35
So we need there's got to be a holistic move to make the you know, to make all of the the variables come together and get everything moving in the same direction.
1:03:45
>> Yeah, I've done some financially financial modeling on this new textile textile recycling system and everything has to be exactly perfect for the model not to break and even then it's it's kind of shaky.
1:04:00
>> Well, I knew there'd be way more to talk about than the time we had allotted.
1:04:03
Eric, Marissa, Brian, thank you.
1:04:03
As is the tradition on the Infinite Loops episodes, there's a final question and and so it's it's a bit of a curveball, but here we go.
1:04:14
If we were going to make you the king or queen of the world for the day and you can't kill anyone and you can't put anyone in a re-education camp, we're going to hand you a magical microphone and you're going to say two things into that into that microphone that will incept all 8 billion plus humans on on the earth.
1:04:37
And when we they wake up in the next morning, they're going to be like, "Oh, here's just something I thought of."
1:04:42
What would those two things be?
1:04:44
>> We talking about giving a message to everyone in the world?
1:04:47
>> Yeah, and when and when you incept them with these two ideas, they will actually go out and do it.
1:04:51
>> Right, so you're brainwashing >> I'm going to go first.
1:04:52
My mine is donate, recycle, don't throw away.
1:04:57
Does that count as that's three words?
1:04:59
Is that what is that what you're asking for? >> I'll allow it.
1:05:02
>> Are you were you looking for two thoughts or or two words? >> Uh two two ideas. >> Two ideas.
1:05:08
Uh donate, recycle, don't throw away and don't judge your clothing.
1:05:10
That would be my also don't donate dirty socks. You donate dirty socks.
1:05:14
We'll find a find a second life.
1:05:16
We'll find a home for them.
1:05:18
You can donate dirty socks.
1:05:20
>> It probably wouldn't even be related to textiles.
1:05:24
>> [laughter] >> It doesn't have to be related to textiles.
1:05:27
It can be love thy neighbor.
1:05:30
>> I think that's what it would be is you know, recognize the reality that you know, life is fleeting life is short and so just you know, approach every day like it could be your last and the second one I think would probably be something around like love thy neighbor treat others as you'd like to be treated.
1:05:52
How are you feeling about yours now?
1:05:55
>> [laughter] >> About the dirty socks? >> Exactly. >> That's great. That's great. >> Brian.
1:06:03
>> We we variety so this is good.
1:06:03
Tune in if they lose podcast. >> [laughter] >> Wow. Really?
1:06:11
>> I guess you know, kind of like what I was thinking about earlier with shirt with with shirts like whether this industry or anything take a look at things sometime and just kind of ask yourself.
1:06:20
You know, what's the story behind that?
1:06:22
How did I get to where it is? Where is it going to go?
1:06:25
Dig into kind of what's the story behind things cuz a lot of times there's something interesting and we tend to just kind of when when you see something I don't know if there's a term for it when you see something every day kind of just become like white noise but there's a lot of interesting stories around and I hope we're one of them but you guys decide maybe we'll see you chapter two a few months.
1:06:44
>> Actually yeah yeah yeah.
1:06:44
Think critically and act with intention [music] I think. >> There you go. >> Okay. I'll take that too. Thank you. >> Thank you. >> Thanks. >> Bye guys.