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I see multiple journalists on the horizon founder. You're watching TVPN.
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Today is Monday, March 23rd, 2026.
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We are live from the TVPN Ultradome, the temple of technology, the fortress of finance, the capital of capital.
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You use corporate cards, bill pay, accounting, and a whole lot more all in one place.
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I think you got the whole >> barnyard this morning. >> Very barnyard themed.
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Uh let me pull up the linear lineup.
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Linear, of course, is the system for modern software development.
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70% of enterprise workspaces are using agents if they're on. >> Very fun day today. We got Martin Skrey. >> Yep.
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>> Coming on with Max over at Superpower to peptides.
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Two very different stances >> on these compounds and we will see how it goes. >> Bring the popcorn.
5:22
>> Is there a peptide that helps with uh debating? >> I'm sure there is.
5:26
Is there like a DBT1 DBT157 that you can take and then you become a max can make one >> before? >> We'll see.
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Then we have Mitchell Green, Lead Edge Capital coming on 12:30.
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Shane from Air, we're going into a a lightning round and then David Center is coming on at 1:15 hanging out in person.
5:48
>> Can't forget >> we're gonna ask what the meaning of life is and Matt from Doctronic.
5:52
Yeah, >> it's a very fun day.
5:54
Anyway, uh over the weekend, you you watched this live, right?
5:59
Elon Musk, the CEO of Tesla, the CEO of SpaceX, uh got some folks together, gave a big keynote presentation about his vision for the future.
6:09
>> Basically something that looked like an Ultradome.
6:11
>> It did look like an Ultradome.
6:11
And so you you watched this, right? >> I did watch it.
6:16
>> I watched I watched a little bit of it.
6:17
And um overall >> and if you were taking a shot every time Elon said epic, >> you were >> hammered by >> not in any in any state to drive after about 3 minutes.
6:29
>> Yeah, he's got so much going on at this point.
6:31
I mean, he's doing sports cars, cyber trucks, you know, Model 3, Model Y, just consumer cars, >> YXL, >> space, internet, space data centers, space launch capacity, pointtooint.
6:44
He's going to take us from one on a rocket from New York to Tokyo in an hour, 30 minutes.
6:52
Uh, Neurolink, brain chips, tunnels.
6:55
Uh, these Elon projects have just gotten bigger and bigger and bigger.
6:58
Of course, he owns X and Twitter.
7:00
uh XAI training foundation models trying to make a consumer app where you chat with it as well as you know solve math and physics.
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So the big >> and I yeah >> this was super rough.
7:14
>> It was I I listened to it and it was a rough delivery like he seemed like he seemed a little like just like okay I got another thing to present.
7:21
Uh and so the cadence wasn't quite there and he wasn't able to get the crowd going.
7:27
There was a lot of like waiting a little bit for the audience to like realize that >> disclaimer, never bet against Elon.
7:32
I'm not dumb enough to bet against Elon.
7:37
>> Yes, >> I'm not dumb enough to try to short any of his company.
7:41
>> Uh and uh I'm not you know you by now you should have learned not to doubt >> Yeah.
7:49
>> what his organizations can do. >> Yeah.
7:52
And even though this tariff concept, you know, there's a lot of reasons that you would want to bet against it. Yep.
7:58
>> There's a lot of uh I don't I don't know that many people that are genuinely sold on on the space data centers in the near term.
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It's still >> It is not clocking for me. Sure, John.
8:12
It's not clocking that he's standing on business.
8:15
>> It's not >> He's standing on business and you're It's not to me that he's standing on space data centers.
8:21
And so so this entire pitch, you know, notable seemingly the first time he's put the the Tesla XAI SpaceX logos together the whole >> uh no uh the tunnel project Hyperloop was a blog post that he wrote and it appeared both on the Tesla blog and the SpaceX blog at the same time.
8:42
And everyone was like, who's going to be involved in this?
8:45
And it turned out it was like a couple people from both sides.
8:48
It became its own company.
8:51
>> I'm not saying it's the first time.
8:53
>> No, no, but it does feel like Elon Megaore gearing gearing up for the Elon Megaore. >> Yep. >> And and yeah.
8:58
So, so just overall >> Yeah.
9:03
>> The pitch is he's basically saying like, "Okay, we're going to do Terra Fab.
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>> It's this really hard project."
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And the evidence for why you should believe that it's going to work well is he's like we've done a lot of hard things in the past. >> Yeah.
9:21
>> And then talks a little bit about space data centers.
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And then >> he talks about needing something in the order of a thousand times more compute. >> Yeah.
9:32
Then >> he says to reach a pedawatt we'll build an electromagnetic mass driver on the moon with robots like Optimus and humans.
9:41
>> No but before the mass driver. >> Yeah.
9:43
>> He's talking about how >> oh we're chip constrained which is true.
9:47
>> Elon >> he gets it >> chip chip constrained by a 1000x. >> Sure.
9:52
>> And so we have to do this. >> Yeah.
9:54
We have to build capacity.
9:54
He doesn't he doesn't lay out like a super compelling case of what all the chips will be used for, right?
10:01
Is it are they going to be is SpaceX going to be a neocloud?
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Is it just for their own internal products like you know self-driving humanoids?
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>> Yeah, >> it it you know again again my criticism is not of any individual company as much as the presentation I just came away.
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He he kept saying like, "If we can do this, it's going to be epic." >> Yeah. Yeah.
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>> And it and and >> there wasn't a really strong justification.
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There wasn't a strong justification other than it's going to be epic.
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>> And then he just closes out with this render of >> Yeah.
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>> the Mass Driver, which is again, it's tight. >> Yeah.
10:40
But I didn't I didn't what was the takeaway on like what we're even going to use the mass driver for other than to get to a Cardesev 3 civilization which again all this stuff just feels so so so >> so far in the future >> far out.
10:55
>> But he did he did he did um >> he did drop the line turning science fiction into science science fact. >> Science fact. No way.
11:04
>> Which is I think >> it's a Josh Wolf line.
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Uh, it's funny because I was the first one to ever say it, but it's a good line. >> Yeah.
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I think of it as a as a wolfism. >> I do too.
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>> And it's funny because Josh Wolf was like the hardest critic of Elon. >> Oh, that's right. Yeah.
11:19
>> And he was >> That's right.
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>> Like he basically had to stop at some point. >> Yeah, of course.
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>> Um, but uh but yeah, he kept saying these lines that he was like expecting like kind of laughter.
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>> Yeah, it it was really hard.
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I mean, doing like like the actual delivery of a speech on stage.
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I mean, Jensen just went through this with a keynote at GTC where he didn't have a teleprompter and he was able to deliver moments and get the crowd going and the crowd size at GTC is really big.
11:48
And so, even if you just have a couple hardcore fans that really get you and have listened to every Jensen uh keynote, they know, yeah, they start clapping and then everyone starts clapping cuz it's in fact and then pretty soon everyone's clapping. This is how it works. Um, so yeah. Yeah.
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I mean, the comedic timing, the delivery timing of like when to clap, when to be whoa, you know, that was a little tough.
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I don't know actually know who was in the audience.
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It might have just been employees.
12:13
Um, it has a certain aesthetic to it.
12:14
Uh, but interestingly about the terapab, this is something I was advocating for back in 2022.
12:20
So when the Biden chips act happened, there was this question about like what's going to happen with Intel?
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Intel should be at the like the center of the chips act because the whole pitch for the chips act was that America is not on the leading edge of semiconductor fabric fabrication and so we need to sort of pull our weight with our intellectual property laws to stop Taiwan from exporting them.
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Remember Taiwan isn't its own country.
12:45
They should in theory be able to sell their products anywhere.
12:49
products anywhere. uh like what what say do we have over you know if if Japan wants to sell PlayStations to China or anywhere why do we have authority over them well it comes down to the intellectual property there's a lot of patents that have been licensed to ASML
13:05
to TSMC and so we do have the ability to pull levers and strings to sort of limit those especially if they're packaged by Nvidia an American company we have export rules but it's it's a stretch but the whole thesis was America's going to lose to China unless we do And so Intel was a very logical one. Uh and I
13:21
Uh and I remember there was like 60 billion or something up for grabs around the chips act.
13:29
At the same time Elon was marshalling around 60 billion for to buy out Twitter something like that 40 something billion.
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And then uh Intel's market cap what they're $220 billion company now.
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I think that they were lower back in 2022.
13:44
They were maybe 150 billion.
13:48
And so it would have been a stretch, but between the chips act money, the all the private equity dollars that came in, all the venture capital dollars that came in to buy Twitter, there was a world where Elon just bought Twitter.
14:00
And there was also that that that rumor that he was maybe meeting with global foundaries.
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There were a number of different like, oh, like what is Elon really great at?
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He's great at engineering efficiency.
14:08
What is what does Intel need?
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It needs engineering efficiency.
14:13
uh there was a world where you know they they teamed up and and Intel uh you know like really delivered on building new facilities uh much quicker but >> yeah so so I I I think it makes total sense for Elon to make chips. >> Yep.
14:30
>> I think uh I think it will make sense over time for XAI to >> start offering cloud services to other companies. >> Yeah.
14:40
uh >> having is valuable, >> but but still it this seems like a kind of uh >> just kind of a blatant sci-fi pump going into the IPO.
14:53
>> Maybe I will take the other side of that.
14:54
But first, let me tell you about CrowdStrike. Your business is AI.
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Raise capital at the New York Stock Exchange. Hopefully, we'll see.
15:06
We have uh BNY was the first Bank of New York was the first company to go public on the New York Stock Exchange.
15:14
>> Have them joining later today.
15:14
So the uh the other side of this is that is that >> it is good to have a long-term vision even if it is decades away.
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And that's what mass driver on the moon is.
15:27
It's not going to be realized this quarter.
15:31
It's not going to be realized this year.
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Probably not even this decade.
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Elon, interestingly, didn't really put a date on it. Like he's Yeah.
15:38
Did Did he say something specific?
15:42
>> He said, "I hope to see it in my lifetime." >> Yeah.
15:44
In his >> which is like I mean he's 54. He's got a while, right? >> Yeah.
15:48
If he's a radical life extension guy, he could be like 300 years from now. Who knows?
15:52
now. Who knows? Uh that's a very vague timeline where whereas in the past with pointto-point with roadster with cyber truck with space data centers all the other Elon pitches have been very focused on uh we think we can do this in five years we think we can do this in
16:08
two years we think and and he always gets criticized for being Elon math too aggressive but then history's shown that you know he he overpromises underdelivers but he typically does deliver eventually and and if the technology is completely new no one else was going to build it and he's the first one to build it. Like it's fine because
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Like it's fine because Starlink works.
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It was the first LEO constellation for satellite internet had turned into a huge business.
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Wound up being a great technology.
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And so uh even if even if it was late, I don't even remember the the Starlink predictions.
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But uh I if even if that was late, it's fine.
16:42
It was still good business.
16:42
Uh now the mass drivers a lot crazier.
16:43
I was uh going back and forth with Tyler about this trying to get him to uh nail down a prediction.
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We started with 100 years.
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Do you think it's possible to put a mass driver on the moon in the in the next 100 years? >> Yeah.
16:59
But well, >> and you said yes. No. So So it's possible. >> Yes.
17:02
There's all sorts of like qualifications, right?
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I think the thing it was like 300 metric tons. >> Okay.
17:07
We will go through we will go through my my conditions.
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We will also go through my timeline and then we will get everyone's predictions for how long this will actually take.
17:16
for how long this will actually take. So first there was this interesting moment last year when um everyone sort of like came around to the same AGI predictions or the same super intelligent predictions saying 8 10 years George Hotz daresh Carpathy Sam Alman there
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were a number of people that were all saying in various words like Sam said a few thousand days had this probability dist distribution that said 2032 and so everyone was sort of in the in the 7 to 10 year range and it just this interesting moment in the AI industry at least where everyone had a clear
17:53
definition of like what super intelligence would be uh and then simultaneously everyone was like yeah it's not this year it's it's more like 10 and so uh it was a cool set of discussions and I enjoyed that moment from last year sort of around November last year fall um but there's way like we are so far away from consensus around
18:14
mass driver timelines I thought it'd be interesting to start developing a thought process around what is a mass driver, what does success look like and what are reasonable timelines here even though I agree with everyone with what you're thinking which is that it's really far away uh because it is. So
18:29
So first we have to define what an what a mass driver actually is.
18:34
Uh in simple terms it's an electromagnetic launch system fixed on the lunar surface that converts energy.
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So you put down some solar panels, you take energy, that's the electromagnetic.
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So you're not putting up fuel and then because that's extra cost you once you're there you can just repeatedly get sunlight turn that into energy.
18:54
Uh and you it's fixed to the lunar surface and it's going to successfully accelerate a payload to lunar escape velocity which is 1ifth of Earth's escape velocity.
19:06
You got to be going 5,000 m an hour to escape the moon's gravity well.
19:10
You have to be going 25,000 m hour to escape Earth's.
19:16
So from an efficiency, an energy efficiency standpoint, it's much better to leave from the moon than to leave from Earth.
19:21
So then the payload needs to go somewhere useful, like you make this thing.
19:26
Uh in this in this video, he's talking about making satellites on the moon.
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Uh that's even farther away, but those have to go somewhere.
19:34
So you can't just launch them into deep space.
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I mean, unless you that's where you're going.
19:39
Usually you would go to a lunar orbit or an earth orbit or some point in between the moon and earth.
19:44
Uh and there are more uh intermediate steps.
19:47
You don't need to go straight to satellite with a chip on it from the moon to wherever it's going.
19:55
Uh you can start just by launching rocks, which sounds crazy, or water or hydrogen.
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Uh if there's ice on the moon, you can split that into hydrogen that can be used as fuel with electricity.
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Uh electrolysis is the is the technique for that.
20:10
Uh even just moon rocks can be used as radiation shielding.
20:17
>> Gabe says, "What is this mass driver you speak of?
20:19
SpaceX is getting in the supplements game."
20:21
>> That's a great name for >> They should make a They've done the Tesla tequila. >> Exactly.
20:25
They should make a a mass gainer that they release now and say, "Hey, >> you'll get if you buy this, you'll get priority access to the mass driver on the moon." >> I like this. I like this a lot.
20:36
I would definitely be a a daily driver of the mass driver.
20:39
Uh and so, yeah, there's this question of like you you set up this thing that's going to take forever, be really expensive.
20:45
What are you actually pushing into space?
20:47
Uh you probably start with basic materials.
20:48
So rock, literally rocks, uh, metal, oxygen, water, a lot of useful space asteroids that we get into our as atmosphere is just an advanced civilization somewhere else.
21:00
Just her mass driving >> mass driving.
21:03
>> I saw I saw >> Yeah, we're we're downrange, guys. Relax.
21:06
I I saw a hilarious take that the first UFO that will arrive on Earth will just be a car guy from another galaxy who like got into building a crazy, you know, supercar effectively taking it out.
21:21
>> And somebody's like, "You can't get to Earth in that thing. That's too modded. That's too crazy.
21:24
You're never Yeah, you're gonna break down. There's no way."
21:27
And he's like, "I'll show.
21:28
>> You're gonna be too old by I'll show you.
21:30
I I've modded this thing."
21:30
Um so uh a lot of useful space infrastructure needs heavy shielding.
21:35
Uh that means water regalith other dense materials are good for shielding humans and sensitive equipment to radiation.
21:42
There's been a lot of fear around the radiation around uh affecting uh different instruments or humans in space.
21:49
So you wrap them in moon dust or uh water and then that reflects the or diffuses the radiation.
21:57
Uh you can also potentially get propellant from the moon.
21:58
If you can extract water from uh from ice from the moon, especially near the poles, that water can support people because you can drink it.
22:05
Um or you can split it into hydrogen and oxygen for rocket propellant.
22:09
So here are the four conditions I think need to be met in order to say yes, we have a working mass driver on the moon.
22:17
This is how I'd formulate this bet with Tyler Cosgrove over there.
22:23
One, you need a permanently installed electromagnetic launcher and it has to be on the lunar surface. This should be obvious.
22:29
Two, it has to launch at least 300 metric tons over a 12 month period.
22:35
This means it's driving significant mass, not just test payloads.
22:37
Uh, let's aim for 95% mission success and at least 200 launches per year.
22:43
Failures are going to happen, but we want to get this reliable and at commercial scale.
22:48
And that means that it can't be breaking down all the time.
22:51
Lastly, the mass launched from the moon has to actually be put to use.
22:56
You can't just have this demo unit that's just blasting rocks into the sun.
22:59
It's got to go to something useful.
23:02
And that could just be water that's going somewhere else or or you know, rocks that are going somewhere else.
23:08
But it needs to be like we're catching them somewhere.
23:10
There's a reason that it's going there.
23:13
>> How do you adjust the direction?
23:17
I think at the last second if you have the trajectory right, it's like how much do you go up, how how much do you go over, how much do you go left and >> and then of course once whatever is launched is floating in space and you can use propulsion to kind of move around.
23:32
But >> yeah, so I mean with that it seems like it's a pretty like it's a pretty basic satellite that doesn't have any propulsion on it, but you could potentially put some, you know, like even just a gas canister.
23:41
Yeah, I was more I was more asking cuz it's it's just like okay, do we need do we need a do we need every possible angle of mass driver?
23:49
How many mass drivers do we need?
23:50
Because I'm assuming we don't want to send every single thing that we want to send into space the exact same direction.
23:57
>> Okay, we're going to sell that one later. That's a 2065 issue.
23:58
Uh we'll get there quickly.
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24:18
So once all four of those conditions are met, it will be hard to argue that we're in some sort of demo phase or publicity stunt.
24:26
We know we love a publicity stunt.
24:28
Uh but this needs to be actually commercial.
24:31
I'm looking for Model 3 level success, not Tesla semile level success.
24:36
Uh I want to see this actually working. Reviews, economics.
24:39
I want other other other companies being like, "Yes, I benefit.
24:44
I'm I'm a buyer of mass from the driver."
24:47
So, how long will this take?
24:51
>> My like you should put the goalposts on the mass driver.
24:54
The way that you you keep moving them is >> I'm moving the goalpost on this.
24:58
I feel like I'm just trying to dial.
25:01
>> Oh, it needs to be economically viable.
25:04
>> I mean, what what what Elon showed was extremely economically vi viable.
25:06
If you're just up on the moon and the moon's just producing satellites with chips that are fabbed and they just go into space, like that's extremely economically valuable as long as you can get the cost down. >> Yeah.
25:20
>> And build it in some reasonable amount of time.
25:22
And it's going to take a long time.
25:23
So, how long will it take?
25:25
>> I put the over under at like 15 to 20 years, which is about as aggressive as I could get.
25:29
I think Tyler's going to take the other side of this.
25:32
>> Well, I'm going to take the over.
25:33
>> You're going to take over 20.
25:34
>> 15 years is I think kind of crazy.
25:34
158 years is a blink of an eye. It really is.
25:39
>> Well, personally, you know, I think I have a bit more hgi pill than you, Tyler. Okay. So, >> okay.
25:45
Well, let's go through the six steps.
25:46
>> Just say just say just say you lost faith. >> The six steps. Six steps. Okay.
25:49
So, first off, we got to get to the moon.
25:51
We can't really get to the moon right now.
25:57
We're we're like we're pretty close with like really small payloads.
25:59
We need reliable heavy lunar launch capacity and that's going to take some time.
26:05
So, Starship needs to be refueling in orbit, landing on the moon with and without crews because you're probably going to need some humans up there, some robots.
26:13
Uh, and we need to start routine cargo flights to the moon.
26:15
So, this is straight up like three to five years away, like minimum.
26:18
Then you need to build the power infrastructure.
26:21
So, mass driving hogs electricity.
26:23
Uh, you needed to deploy a 100 kilowatt solar array.
26:29
then build out energy storage systems so you can burst power during launches and ultimately scale to multi- megawatt continuous power generation plant.
26:35
So that's another couple years because once you're actually going up and back, you have to put down a bunch of solar panels, store it in batteries, and then the batteries need to be able to deliver a lot of power all of a sudden.
26:44
Now, this is what the Tesla does, right?
26:45
You can charge your Tesla Model S Plaid off of solar panels.
26:50
It'll take, you know, a couple days and then when you're ready to go 0 to 60 in two seconds, like it can deliver that energy very, very quickly.
26:58
And that's what you need for a an electromagnetic mass driver because it's a it's a rail gun basically.
27:02
So >> yeah, and to SpaceX team's credit, this stuff can a lot of this stuff can be done in parallel, right?
27:10
By the time like I would I would hope that five years from now, >> Optimus is is quite good, functional, valuable. Yeah.
27:19
>> At that point in time, maybe we can get to the moon and back.
27:21
And I've I've talked to SpaceX folks who have been working on uh on putting solar panels out on Mars.
27:28
The problem with Mars is they're farther away from the sun.
27:30
So, they have to put out a lot of solar panels.
27:32
Um and that's why maybe they're thinking nuclear on on Mars, but it's it's not like they they've never thought about how do you deploy solar once you get to another celestial body.
27:41
They've been thinking about this for at least over a decade that I know of.
27:44
So, uh robotic construction capacity, you got to get autonomous construction.
27:49
rovers at least up and running to lay the electromagnetic track.
27:53
You have to you have to solve for all the insane forces during high acceleration, deal with thermal expansion.
27:59
So you're basically you're basically laying train tracks that have electromagnetic coils in them.
28:06
So they're way more particular than just like railroad tracks.
28:08
But then those coils, all that infrastructure has to deal with being -280° F during the night and then positive 260 Fahrenheit during the day, I think.
28:20
So like massive massive temperature fluctuations and that means everything expands, contracts.
28:27
If you have metal there, it gets it gets brittle during the night, it gets warmer during the day.
28:32
Uh that's maybe three years of work, maybe a lot more, who knows?
28:34
Uh then you actually have to build the mass driver on earth like you because you don't have the infrastructure to build anything up there yet.
28:43
So you have to build most of it on earth.
28:44
Uh you need to ship hundreds of tons of superconduction coils to the moon.
28:48
These the physics behind all this stuff actually comes from a Navy scientist back in the 1970s.
28:55
And so we know that >> isn't isn't his pitch we're just going to just drop a bunch of robots on the moon and they're going to just like mine and and refine rare earths and then build out the manufacturing facility with those rare earths and like just kind of become a self-replicating civilization fully autonomous civilization.
29:14
Like I thought the whole pitch was that we didn't have to send >> I think we definitely have to send like close to finished goods.
29:21
I would be very I would be very surprised if you can go and just scoop up some lunar regalith and be like, "Okay, step one, make a wrench. Make a hammer.
29:30
Okay, now I have a hammer and a wrench.
29:33
Now let's make some some rebar. Let's make some cement."
29:37
Uh, all of that is is very you would you would just logically you would pull it forward by delivering some of that pre-made because it's just it's just one extra space SpaceX launch to get up there and then have, you know, uh, a CNC machine or something.
29:50
I don't know whatever you put up there like you're not going to go with nothing.
29:54
So, uh you're looking at another 5 years here at least.
29:58
You'll need dozens of dedicated cargo flights just to get the several hundred ton system up there.
30:02
Uh then you need to assemble the track sections with humans or more likely robotic crews.
30:07
Integrate the supply, the power supply and cooling systems, test everything rigorously.
30:12
Integration hell can take years but should overlap with some of the other milestones.
30:16
Lastly, you need to shift into operational launches.
30:20
Your first payload needs to achieve escape velocity and at no point can a catastrophic fa failure result in permanent damage to the mass driver or the energy infrastructure.
30:28
And obviously we've seen um you know test failures at SpaceX where things blow up and it can hurt other support infrastructure and that can delay things.
30:36
And so you >> do you know how long the mass driver is roughly?
30:41
>> I think like one kilometer is about enough but I'm not I'm not 100% sure on where that is.
30:46
But that's a long way to go.
30:48
go. if the California government thinking about one one kilometer of track >> that's 50 years right there uh so you know just testing all that not damaging things any unforeseen setbacks that's another five years with lots of uh variability uh the good news is that
31:04
once you build it once you built it like the benefits are really good like you don't have an atmosphere there's no drag no weather no air resistance uh and of course gravity is a lot less so you still need to plan for where the mass goes after it's driven, you got to catch it kind of. Uh, and that's a whole
31:19
Uh, and that's a whole another problem.
31:21
But and and when you add all these projects up, you start easily getting into the decades.
31:25
But >> and what and and the render just kind of played, everyone clapped and then the the the presentation was over.
31:34
>> But the idea is to put more space data centers >> on these. >> Yeah.
31:40
I mean, if you think about this in like the most grand project you can imagine, which is like the Dyson sphere, basically solar panels directly around the sun, all the way around the sun to capture all of its energy.
31:50
Uh, you're going to need to send a lot of solar panels to the sun.
31:54
Making those on the moon is lower cost potentially than making them on Earth.
32:00
That's the That's the theory.
32:02
But then in the meantime, Elon's clearly thinking about making at least part of the satellite up there.
32:09
And then I mean, you could you could ship up the chips and just make the the housing up there if that's the most if that's the heaviest part.
32:17
You could make the more economically precise, valuable piece up here, drop off a bunch of chips, drop them into the actual, you know, housing that's been made, and then launch those into orbit.
32:27
There's a whole bunch of other >> Yeah.
32:29
So then you're sending chips from here to the moon and then they're being sent back, right?
32:32
>> No, they're not being sent back.
32:32
They're sent they're being sent into various orbits. >> Okay.
32:37
So these are not the >> Yeah.
32:38
And then and then again my concern and again I'm not a mass driver expert.
32:43
I'm just kind of thinking through this is like what if the like you got like one shot basically.
32:48
>> Well, I mean the moon's the moon's uh like movements are pretty predictable and it's not like the moon's just up there going crazy, right?
32:54
Like the moon is like rotating out.
32:57
>> It's like extremely predictable. It's pretty extreme.
32:58
It's perfectly predictable.
33:00
>> You predict it hundreds of years. >> Yeah.
33:01
And so, and so if you have it lined up so that every day at least it lines up to be the perfect angle like then you just launch right then. >> I know.
33:10
But you're saying we're launching them back into like just into Earth's orbit. >> Earth orbit. Yeah.
33:16
>> Toward where the SpaceX. >> Yeah. Yeah.
33:19
You are kind of round tripping.
33:20
But but it it's the equivalent of like of like dropping a ball versus throwing it up like like you're dropping stuff seems clear that that the it's going to require >> like the vast majority of the components for these satellites being made >> Yeah. >> entirely on the moon.
33:37
Otherwise, it could very well not make sense. >> Yeah. Yeah. No, totally.
33:42
like like there is no benefit to bringing a fully complete uh Starlink satellite up there and then driving it from the moon down to low Earth orbit. That makes no sense.
33:54
The only thing that makes sense is if you're able to get something like the vast majority of the mass, ideally 100% of the mass from what's already on the moon because that's already been driven up there.
34:04
It's already at low gravity.
34:06
Like the energy is stored effectively.
34:08
I'm seeing a tourism angle when the mass driver is pointed back at the Earth to like be in a little like bob bob sled type thing, a little pod to be launched at the Earth >> and then you kind of break through the atmosphere and then you parachute.
34:22
>> Yeah, >> that could be good for like gender reveal birthday parties, you know, >> potentially. >> Yes.
34:30
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34:36
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34:39
Unlock seamless real-time experiences and new value. >> Okay. Predictions.
34:44
Tyler, you're going over 20 years.
34:47
>> You're going over 20 years. >> Under 70 years. >> Yeah.
34:50
It's just so hard because like right now I don't it's it's hard to see like a real economic incentive to do this.
34:56
Like because even even space data centers, >> it's like still pretty hard to like figure out how like like why that like really makes sense. >> Yeah.
35:03
Uh but then like for this to work you need maybe space data centers but you also need them to somehow be built on the moon for them to make sense right. >> Yeah.
35:12
>> So I I think uh yeah maybe I'll like median is like something like 70 years. >> 70 years. Okay.
35:17
Median 70 >> uh give me 50. 50 years. >> 50 years. Okay. 50 years.
35:23
Getting more techno optimist over here.
35:25
Jordy, if I'm at 20 and Tyler's at 50, where are you?
35:33
And while you think about it, let me tell everyone about Apploving.
35:36
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35:39
Get access to over 1 billion daily active users and grow your business today. >> Okay, >> you got it.
35:45
>> My concern is that an Elon like Elon is >> I didn't specify Elon. >> Okay.
35:54
>> Could be anybody, but I'm just saying there's there's a lot of there's >> I'm just saying mass driver on the moon.
36:00
This needs an Elonesque figure to accomplish.
36:05
>> And >> yeah, I'm I'm thinking more in that 50 50 year range. >> Over 50 or under 50. We gave Tyler Exactly.
36:15
>> I I changed I'm going 30. >> 30.
36:21
>> Well, I was just like, you know, AGI is like basically here.
36:23
There's no way it's going to take that long. >> There we go.
36:25
It's like everything will be so cheap.
36:27
No, I mean I was thinking five years. >> Five years.
36:32
>> I was thinking months.
36:32
Specifically 50,000 months.
36:37
>> I mean when you know opening codec 6 comes out. >> Yeah. >> Totally possible. One shot it. >> No no no.
36:43
Even even even in the software only singularity is just amount of time that takes to >> I have I have a pull to midcurve this one and just and just think okay this is just a big pump.
36:56
Yes, this is just a big pump going.
36:58
We need the semiconductor pump.
37:01
We need the space pump, the mass driver pump to get to the $2 trillion valuation.
37:05
We need a lot of pumps going on, right?
37:08
>> Uh space data centers, mass drivers, >> semis like it's the final pump basically.
37:15
>> That is the mid curve. >> That's the midurve. >> That's the mid curve. >> Okay. Okay. What's the left curve?
37:19
>> The left curve >> is Elon good.
37:20
Elon business AI accelerate. >> Yeah.
37:24
Elon good businessman years. Elon make thing.
37:27
Elon put a thing in space. >> Elon do hard thing. >> Elon do hard thing.
37:31
>> And then and then the the the right would be just like insane AI acceleration. What does Elon know? >> Yeah.
37:41
>> And >> who else is going to do it?
37:42
He has all the infrastructure.
37:44
He's cornered the launch market.
37:46
He's shown a big track record.
37:48
Uh yeah, >> the politics thing.
37:51
Yeah, >> it's hard to see how real it is. >> Yeah. >> Right.
37:58
>> I don't know >> because these data centers on land do generate a lot of local revenues. >> Yeah.
38:03
>> And there are going to be plenty of places that want them. >> Yeah.
38:07
>> But oh, so hard not to mid.
38:15
Well, while you think of your final estimate, knowing that I'm at 20, Tyler's at 30, and you are undecided, let me tell everyone about Gusto, the the unified platform for payroll benefits and HR built to evolve with modern small and mediumsiz businesses.
38:28
What's your final answer? >> 10 years. >> 10 years.
38:33
>> 10 years >> until we have >> Until we have Jordy, that's too aggressive. I never said 10.
38:40
Don't say his lifime 10 year 10 years to an MVP. >> No, no, no, no.
38:46
It needs to specifically be launching 300 metric tons, 95% mission success, 200 launches a year.
38:52
It needs to be pumping mass. It needs to be driving. Never. >> Never.
39:00
I think >> No, I think I I I I think I think pumping mass >> drive mass >> driving mass.
39:10
Ah, it's got to be I'm thinking I'm thinking 2100. >> Okay.
39:15
Based on just average life expectancy, he's got another 20 years.
39:20
54 average life expectancy is 75 76.
39:20
He has access to all sorts of stuff, you know, could go for 30, could go for 40.
39:29
Plus, like you forget that like like Apple introduced products after Steve Jobs passed away.
39:34
Like companies continue to exist.
39:36
company and and projects will be picked up.
39:39
There will be other competitors.
39:41
This isn't even a specifically an Elon thing.
39:43
This is a humanity thing.
39:47
>> I I think there actually is like a >> What about China? Like China could do it.
39:50
>> Maybe if if there's some e economic incentive found on Mars or like asteroid mining like it actually is does make sense to to do to to launch from the moon, right?
39:58
Because it's like so much easier.
39:59
Requires way less energy. >> Yeah. >> So 2100 >> 75 years. 75 years.
40:06
There is another there is another mass driver idea which is you you build this you take a shuttle to the moon and then if you want to go to Mars you are mass driven from the moon to Mars.
40:24
>> Ryan says Roadster has been 10 years since they sold out pre-orders.
40:25
This isn't going to happen.
40:27
The Roadster is happening.
40:30
>> Ryan, is it never going to happen?
40:30
Like you would say Roadster is not gonna have I mean Roadster could just get completely canceled but uh no one does it.
40:38
I'm not even saying Elon.
40:38
I'm saying humanity mass driver moon over under 2100 75 years.
40:45
You got 70 74 years seems possible. I don't know.
40:50
I >> Okay, which one do you >> What about What about So here's here's the here's the thing.
40:56
You have to make so many >> you have to come to terms with so many incredible technological leaps to get to the point where the mass driver >> Yeah. >> on the moon >> Yeah. >> is is mass driving. >> Yeah.
41:12
>> If assume we get all those leaps.
41:12
Can we not just mass drive from let's say the Earth? >> I don't think so.
41:18
I mean uh there's a company that's doing >> 25,000 miles hour.
41:21
There's a company that's doing spin.
41:25
>> Fastest plane has been is like that that NASA plane. It's like 7,000 mph. >> 7,000.
41:31
I thought it was like I thought it was like a couple thousand. I don't know. Fastest plane. >> Yeah.
41:37
Look up the fastest plane.
41:37
We'll tell you about the uh Mallip default uh which Andrew McCallip friend of the show over at Varta Space uh was in The Economist.
41:48
the cost of a one gigawatt data center in space.
41:51
He pegged it at 50 billion.
41:54
StarCloud is aiming for 16 billion.
41:58
StarCloud at 200 g uh $200 a kilogram is around 101 uh billion dollars per gigawatt.
42:07
>> Fast SpaceX is trying to do this for aircraft.
42:10
>> Fastest aircraft speed ever recorded is Mach 9.
42:12
6 six by an unmanned NASA X43 scramjet. Yeah.
42:18
>> On November 16th, 2004.
42:21
>> It's nearly 7,000 miles per hour. >> Okay.
42:23
So, we got to 5x that or something to get to 4x that to get to escape velocity to escape the to just like do the thing from interstellar and just drive the plane into the into the atmosphere and just go to space. Maybe. Maybe.
42:38
Uh, do you think we will have mass driver on the moon first or mass driver on the moon first or >> Zit says the midcurve is definitely right. >> Okay. >> Total victory.
42:55
>> Mass driver on the moon first or Atlantis first? >> Atlantis.
42:59
full society >> of people living underwater in like some sort of glass dome >> where it's fully sustained.
43:07
You can go you can move there and be like, "Yeah, I got a buddy who moved to the new Atlantis and he I haven't seen him in three years because he's just been down there happy living life."
43:16
Which one do you think happens first?
43:21
>> I've been very bullish on on Atlantis data centers.
43:23
Yeah, >> Atlanta's data centers.
43:24
Atlantis data centers actually make a ton of sense, right?
43:28
Don't you get a ton of cooling for free?
43:29
Yeah, there's like all sorts of stuff that that >> you get no energy. >> No, the vents. >> The vents. >> Geothermal. >> Geothermal. Okay.
43:37
>> No one's talking about underwater data centers. >> No one's doing this.
43:39
James, call up James Cameron. He he'll be on this.
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43:53
Okay, so we have >> so hard to be Barrett on the technology business programming network. I'm sorry everyone. I'm sorry.
44:02
>> We got a del over here.
44:03
>> Yeah, we got a del over here.
44:04
>> True true del with a crazy IP doom over here.
44:07
>> No, I mean 2100 is is is pretty acceleration pill.
44:11
If you look at the fact that going to the moon is now a lost art that we're trying >> I've talked to a lot of people in tech that say uh the 2100 milestone is Dyson sphere.
44:20
And so like you probably get the mass driver before you get the Dyson sphere.
44:23
like full Dyson sphere >> full uh maybe over 50% coverage. >> Yeah.
44:30
20 2100 because like this is based on super intelligence. >> Yeah.
44:35
This is like you know singular every AI company is a is a Dyson sphere company >> at the end of the day essentially. Yeah.
44:41
>> And then and then the question of uh what what is it?
44:43
Carterv one is all the sunlight that falls on the earth.
44:45
Cardev 2 is all solar panels all the way around the entire sun.
44:52
So we get the sunlight that doesn't just hit Earth, it also hits the it also hits Mars, also hits the backside, you know, you get all of that power.
44:59
So much more power than uh than the uh than than just Cardartesev 1.
45:06
But then I think Cartardev 3 is every you you're harvesting energy from every sun in your sol in your not your solar system, but your galaxy or something like that like everything in the Milky Way.
45:18
It gets really crazy >> in the galaxy. in the galaxy.
45:21
And that's a lot of power. That's a lot of power.
45:25
By then, it's totally possible that like you won't be able to tell the difference between like AI generated imagery and like real imagery with that much power.
45:33
It's it's entirely possible that that it could be funny. >> Automated workflows.
45:38
>> The Yeah, >> it'll be able to do high school level >> Yeah. >> homework >> for sure. >> Reliably. >> For sure.
45:44
Well, we have a related prediction from Kelshi about uh Tesla.
45:49
Will the Tesla Optimus be released this year? It's sitting at a 25. 4% chance.
45:54
And it jumped a little bit just over the past week. It was down at 19%.
46:00
It's pumped to almost 30%.
46:00
Now it's down at 25 based on uh the mo the more recent uh announcements from Elon Musk.
46:08
>> Anyways, to end on some positivity, I am glad that Tesla and Elon Inc.
46:11
are going to be focused on chip manufacturing. Mhm.
46:18
>> I think we'll get some very uh I think we'll get some real progress there and uh it is good for >> America.
46:26
It's good for the world that they are choosing to work on this very hard problem. >> I agree with that.
46:30
I had a different positive conclusion as well which is that um >> I think it's fine to think in decades and share a vision that is decades away.
46:41
Um the last thing I want is for technologists to be devoid of long-term vision.
46:46
I really don't want there to be like an end of the tunnel.
46:48
Oh, we're just working towards super intelligence and then we can all become complacent.
46:55
I'd much rather get excited about projects many years away or decades away that only have a slight chance of working uh rather than the alternative which is just stagnation.
47:02
And so I'm cheering for the mass driver and there's that old phrase shoot for the moon if you miss you'll land among the stars.
47:11
And I couldn't agree more with that.
47:13
>> I think it's the other shoot for the stars you'll land on the moon, right? No, it's not that. You shoot for the moon.
47:17
If you miss, you'll land amongst the stars.
47:18
If you shoot for the stars, you're just going to randomly land anywhere.
47:22
The chance that you land on the moon.
47:23
>> The moon is closer than the stars. >> No, no, no, no, no.
47:25
You shoot for the moon, which is this narrow target.
47:27
And if you miss, you go off into the stars. >> Okay.
47:32
You're talking about directions.
47:33
I'm talking about like distance, right?
47:34
If you're shooting for stars, you don't get all the way there.
47:38
>> Once you're once you've reached escape velocity, if you miss the moon, you'll just keep going until you hit a star.
47:44
It might take you a long time, but you will land there.
47:48
>> I I think I'm right about that.
47:49
>> I don't think Look it up. Look it up.
47:51
So, uh, >> let's head over to >> Take us somewhere else, Jordy.
47:56
>> Let's head over to Suspended Cap. What do they say there?
47:59
Are they bullish on is Suspended Cap bullish on the presentation? >> Terafab.
48:05
Uh, Suspended Cap says, "Terafab is a blatant pump. It actually disgusts me.
48:08
There will never be leading edge chips from them.
48:10
There will never be data centers in space.
48:12
It's such a blatant effort to IPO SpaceX on the back of some pie in the sky BS and then merge with Tesla, do humongous rays and keep uh blah blah blah blah blah for five years.
48:22
Uh anyway, uh not specifically caps not a not a fan.
48:26
Del suspended caps of DEL.
48:29
Anyway, let me tell you about Railway.
48:32
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48:41
Um, should we go over to the mall king? Where should we go next? Jordy >> opening firm.
48:46
Okay, so uh >> there was an obituary in the Wall Street Journal for David Simon.
48:52
He was a mall king who was both feared and admired.
48:54
Uh he was had ruthless negotiation tactics, an obsession with details and a sheer force of will that turned his family's real estate business into the largest mall owner in the country.
49:07
He passed away on Sunday after a cancer diagnosis in 2024.
49:11
Uh he who was diagnosed with cancer in 2024. He was 64 years old.
49:18
During his more than three de his more than three decades as Simon Property Group's chief executive, the inveterate dealmaker gobbled up competitors and defied critics who said malls were obsolete.
49:28
Over a decadesl long buying spree, he cobbled together an empire that spanned 250 properties and 2,000 or 206 million square feet, giving Simon control of more retail space than anyone in the world.
49:41
His success helped propel the family to the wealthiest echelons with an estimated net worth of 11.
49:45
6 6 billion, ranking number 38 on Forbes magazine's list of the richest American families.
49:52
The Simon family through a charitable donation donates to many causes, including a $5 million gift to Columbia University.
49:57
At a time when malls were failing and retailers were filing for bankruptcy, Simon invested in his properties, beefed up their luxury offerings, and added non-shopping tenants such as high-end fitness centers, high-tech mini golf courses, and upscale residents.
50:11
I feel like that has been the secret to success with the modern mall.
50:16
Um, there's a lot of malls that have sort of mid-tier or low-end retailers where it is it is actually pretty comparable to shopping online.
50:25
You go in, there's no one that's really going to talk to you. The stuff's just there.
50:28
It might be on the floor. It's messy.
50:30
But then there are certain malls that have leaned into the higherend experience and they're, "Oh, would you like a drink?
50:35
Like, let let's talk about what you're thinking.
50:37
Let's, you know, show you all this stuff. Try this on."
50:41
and it's much more uh it's just in a completely different tier than e-commerce shopping.
50:45
And so I feel like those properties and those chains have done very well.
50:49
So uh along with partners he snapped up a retailers including Aerop Pastel, Nautica, Eddie Bower, J C Penney, Forever 21, Lucky Brand and Brooks Brothers.
50:57
The arrangement propped up the chains, prevented large vacancies in Simon Malls and turned out to be money makers for the company.
51:04
Effective Monday, Simon import uh board the Simon's board appointed Eli Simon, one of David Simon's five children as its CEO and president.
51:12
Uh the mall king was both feared and admired and could be both charming and terrifying.
51:16
Simon unleashed a tirade at coach executive Todd Khan during their first meeting in the decade of the 2000s after the handbag maker tried to reneg on deals to open stores in Simon Malls.
51:29
There was no shortage of profanity.
51:31
Khan said the two came to an agreement and became friends.
51:33
Nothing like a screaming match to kick off a lifelong friendship.
51:38
David's word was his bond.
51:40
You could have bang out meetings, but if you came to a resolution and you shook hands, it was golden.
51:45
That's a good way of doing business.
51:47
>> Well, RIP to the mall king.
51:50
>> And uh hopefully we'll get a chance to meet Eli at some point. >> Yes.
51:55
Um, OpenAI is offering private equity firms a guaranteed minimum return of 17.
52:01
5% as well as early access to models not yet in public release.
52:04
Uh, there was a lot of uh chatter on the timeline going back and forth like is this some sort of weird guarantee?
52:11
Is this not normal for private equity dealing?
52:16
Market participant had a good breakdown to take you through it.
52:19
So why don't you read through some of this?
52:21
But first I will tell everyone about MongoDB.
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52:26
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52:27
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52:31
>> Many are saying OpenAI's $10 billion private equity joint venture is giving a desperate feeling.
52:35
A lot of people are throwing up the red flag emoji saying vendor financing dressed up as venture capital guaranteed returns. It smell like a Ponzi.
52:42
A company burning 14 billion this year.
52:44
Buying distribution it can't earn organically. I'd push back.
52:48
TPG, Bang Capital, Advent, and Brookfield put up 4 billion.
52:50
They get preferred equity with a 17 and a half minimum return, board seats, and early access to OpenAI's newest model.
52:57
OpenAI gets instant distribution into hundreds of portfolio companies.
53:00
No traditional enterprise sales cycles, no selling company by company.
53:04
The part people are missing.
53:06
A huge number of software companies are privately held.
53:07
Toma Bravo alone owns 75 software companies generating 30 billion of annual revenue.
53:14
PE firms collectively did 1.
53:14
8 trillion in buyouts last year.
53:16
These companies are shifting to heavy token consumption. AWS knows this.
53:20
They run a dedicated PE sales function.
53:24
>> Talk about a dream job that Oh, I would kill for that. Yeah. >> Yeah.
53:28
If you love private equity, >> yes, >> hard to imagine anyway >> anything better.
53:32
Advisory programs, transformation consultants, the whole apparatus.
53:36
Azure and GCP do the same.
53:38
OpenAI is running the cloud distribution playbook.
53:40
Wholesale tokens to PE portfolios at scale.
53:41
The difference is exclusivity.
53:43
AW AWS doesn't ask PE firms to put up four billion to take board seats.
53:47
They give the advisory away.
53:49
OpenAI is asking for for capital commitment which buys preferential access dedicated forward deployed engineers and a financial incentive for the PE firm to actually push adoption across its portfolio.
53:59
A PE firm that invested 4 billion in this JB isn't running a parallel RFP with anthropic. That's the point. The 17.
54:06
5% return looks like a red flag until you look at it closely.
54:10
It's preferred equity hurdle, not a coupon on debt.
54:12
This is the main >> thing that the hundreds of posts I saw are missing.
54:17
Priority on returns before a common shareholder.
54:19
So, >> it's preferred equity plus >> a return on top of that. >> Mhm.
54:28
>> Openai is buying captive distribution channel into enterprises they'd otherwise spend years trying to reach.
54:33
Uh, Anthropic is running a parallel deal with Blackstone, Helman, Freriedman, and Per Meera.
54:39
It's 1 billion common equity, no guaranteed return, more of a palunteer style consulting venture.
54:43
Both companies doing this simultaneously tells you where enterprise AI is heading.
54:47
Uh the bare case is real.
54:50
95% of enterprise AI pilots fail to deliver ROI.
54:52
I've already gone uh >> yeah, that's not true anymore, but >> yeah, that that was one study and again it was every >> agent coding. >> Yeah.
55:04
Uh 14 billion in projected losses this year.
55:08
profitability not expected until 2029.
55:10
All true in OpenAI's enterprise business is already 10 billion of 25 billion in revenue, 40% and growing to 50% by year end.
55:17
The distribution problem is what's left to solve.
55:18
Um and anyways goes goes on and on.
55:22
But uh but yeah, overall I think like people are taking one data point out of context kind of spinning it into something that that looks uh like quite extreme and concerning when in reality is just giving them a preferred return which is somewhat normal.
55:43
>> Yeah, good good takes here.
55:43
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56:03
>> Financial Times had some reporting Saturday.
56:04
Open AI to double workforce as business push intensifies. I love a business push.
56:10
So this is fantastic news.
56:13
Matt Slott says tbh the biggest risk to incumbents may be that labs absorb all the top talent.
56:17
Labs already get great engineering talent, but this will spread to product, sales, marketing, etc.
56:22
When they become the optimal destination to solve the problems of your customers, it's going to get ugly. >> Yeah.
56:28
Basically, you know, you have a big enterprise instead of going and doing and trying to figure out like the right SAS >> Yeah.
56:35
>> solution for a specific problem.
56:35
You can go to a lab and uh get something um uh similar.
56:42
Uh, as part of that workforce push, OpenAI tapped former Meta executive to lead their ad push. >> Yeah.
56:49
Why is no one talking about Dave Dugan? >> The Duganator. >> The Dukeator. It's uh it's crazy.
56:56
>> Dave Dugan, a former top advertising executive at Meta, is going to lead sales ad sales.
57:00
Dugan, who announced earlier this month he was stepping down from his role as vice president of global clients and agencies at Meta, has been named vice president of global ad solutions for OpenAI.
57:10
He will report to Brad >> light cap.
57:14
>> The light caponinator.
57:16
The high-profile hireer underscores OpenAI's urgent push to generate new revenue streams to support its enormous funding requirements for its uh computing needs.
57:26
>> Yeah, Eric Seuford had some good uh good commentary around like the ad sales strategy.
57:30
Um people were complaining that like the uh advertisers that bought the first ad campaigns on Chach said that the process was low tech and that they haven't received much data showing if their ads worked.
57:40
Two executives agencies working with early ChachiPT advertisers said they haven't yet been able to prove the ads have driven any measurable business out from their outcomes for their clients.
57:50
Eric Suver over at Mobile Dev Memo shared uh two thoughts on reporting that early chat GBT ad campaigns lacked performance data.
58:00
One, this is to be expected.
58:00
Any early offering will feature limited functionality.
58:04
Early adopters should be prepared to fill measurement gaps themselves with polling, you know, or or any other sort of pixels or tracking.
58:14
You should be able to work this together.
58:15
There's been plenty of times, this is the early podcast ads, you know, you'd run a bunch of podcast ads and be like, "Okay, some people use the coupon code, but a lot of people don't.
58:22
What multiplier should I apply to that?"
58:23
And then you'd wind up surveying your customer base and being like, "Wait, we spent 10% of our marketing budget on podcast ads, but 20% of our customers said they found out about us from a podcast.
58:34
Like, maybe we should spend more there, right?"
58:36
Um, and that's the role of a good uh of a good ad agency.
58:41
Uh, measuring incredibly asserting performance is is precisely what ad agencies are paid to do, says Eric Sufort.
58:48
says, "If an ad agency says it can't provide performance data because the channel doesn't provide it, it is merely a media buying intermediary.
58:55
If you're an ad agency, you got to figure out whether or not the ads that you pitch to your clients are actually working."
59:04
Um, quickly, let me tell you about 11 Labs.
59:06
Build intelligent real-time conversational agents.
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59:11
Uh, Mark Zuckerberg, >> big scoop, >> huge >> from Megan over at the journal.
59:15
Mark Zuckerberg is building a CEO agent to help him do his job.
59:21
Employees are also adopting AI agents and AI tools internally, namely my claw, my claw, >> my claw, >> my dude >> and second brain in a bid to speed up work as they get graded on AI use.
59:35
work as they get graded on AI use. And so >> where's our my claw and our second brain >> I think >> and our co-host >> chat GBT um yeah I don't know I I'm so interested to know what uh what >> revenge says Zstack >> yeah it is >> honestly Zuck Zstack is like it's like
59:58
god mode >> I mean it does make sense in his position to have a model that's fine-tuned on the internal KPIs the internal org chart all this information that's private and he probably doesn't want to hand that off to another to another lab that's just going to maybe look at the data and be like, "Oh, okay. So, Mark Zuckerberg just add just asked,
1:00:17
So, Mark Zuckerberg just add just asked, "How do I poach from from all the other labs?
1:00:22
Maybe we should go on the defense today."
1:00:24
Um, but there's got to be so many other questions that he's asking all the time.
1:00:29
When when you're walking into a meeting with executives, you want to know, well, how is this division performing?
1:00:34
How much money am I spending on metaray band displays? What's the turn rate?
1:00:38
Who are our biggest partners?
1:00:40
There's a million questions.
1:00:41
>> Yeah, we're we're joking around, but the ZStack does make sense. It does make sense.
1:00:46
You should be able to have god mode. >> Yeah.
1:00:48
And I mean, this this has the the there are companies that are starting to do this where they're they're pitching their, you know, agent stacks for CEOs.
1:00:58
By is sort of one version of that, right?
1:01:01
But uh there there there's there's more and more people that are like okay we will come in and and fine-tune something for your organization specifically um and maybe do that on the fly.
1:01:11
Maybe that's just JGBT enterprise or anthropic enterprise or whatever.
1:01:14
Um but uh Zuck clearly wants something built from the ground up and it's also a great uh great product demo because if it works really well for him then it can probably the lessons and the learnings from there will probably apply to other people in the ecosystem.
1:01:29
So the agent which is still in development is currently helping Zuckerberg get information faster for in for instance by retrieving answers for him that he would typically have to go through layers of people to get.
1:01:39
Zuckerberg's agent project reflects a drive across the seven 78,000 person company to accelerate the pace of work eliminate layers from its organizational structure and change the day-to-day jobs of its employees to remain competitive with AI native startups with much smaller staffs.
1:01:56
The company views AI adoption as critical to the future of success.
1:02:00
Uh Zuckerberg has been spending more time coding recently.
1:02:02
He previewed some of the efforts at a company's earnings call in January.
1:02:06
Quote, "We're investing in AI native tooling so individuals at Meta can get more done.
1:02:12
We're elevating individual contributors and flattening teams."
1:02:15
He said, "If we do this, then I think we're going to get a lot more done and I think it'll be a lot more fun."
1:02:22
I love that we have our guests in the reream waiting room, I believe.
1:02:28
First, let me tell you about Plaid.
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1:02:48
And without further ado, let's kick off. the peptide debate.
1:02:55
Welcome to the stream, guys. How are you guys doing? >> Hey, how's it going?
1:02:59
>> You guys, >> thank you so much for taking the time.
1:03:02
Uh, why don't you both start with an introduction on yourself and maybe your core thesis around peptides?
1:03:11
>> Martin, why don't you go first? >> Oh, Max. >> Okay, sure.
1:03:13
>> Let's start with Martin. >> Yeah. So, I'm the farmer bro.
1:03:15
Uh >> I represent uh the interests and the um >> of the pharmaceutical >> I guess viewpoint of the pharmaceutical industry uh including but not limited to Fizer, Merc, Eli Lilly, etc.
1:03:27
I'm sure those guys love that.
1:03:31
>> And uh >> you're the face of pharma >> whether they like it or not. >> There you go.
1:03:36
Um sort of a self-trained uh biioharmaceutical expert.
1:03:39
I think I can speak at a pretty high level about every inch of the pharmaceutical industry.
1:03:47
I've discovered brand new drugs. I've acquired drugs.
1:03:49
I've commercialized drugs.
1:03:50
I've just about anything you can do in the drug industry, I've done it.
1:03:53
And so I'm very concerned about the peptide craze.
1:03:55
I think it comes mostly out of psychological issues, uh, which we'll discuss.
1:04:02
um the need for identity control uh distrust of uh institutions, all kinds of things like that are leading to what we're what we're seeing today. >> Mhm. Great. And Max. >> Hi, I'm Max.
1:04:17
Um former peptide skeptic turned peptide believer.
1:04:21
Um I I run a healthcare company called Superpower.
1:04:27
And our thesis is that the health system today does a good job when you're sick.
1:04:30
it doesn't do a fantastic job at preventing things and actually allowing people to be their best selves.
1:04:34
Um, I say a former peptide skeptic because they they seem scary and I say a converted believer because I spoke to dozens of doctors and heard uh hundreds of clinical vignettes from people who had their lives changed.
1:04:49
Now, I don't believe all peptides are safe.
1:04:52
I do believe we need more research.
1:04:54
Um but I think there are a subset of things that have improved people's lives.
1:04:59
I also think as a modality um peptides are one that are more interesting than before now that injecting is normal, now that wellness and optimization is normal, not just treating disease and now that we have AI for things like computational discovery. So we're early. We need more research.
1:05:17
But I think peptides are exciting.
1:05:21
>> Martin, I'll let you just respond.
1:05:23
Seems like you have something on your mind.
1:05:24
Uh I but it would be useful to at least define the the conversation a little bit more because when we say peptides we could mean ompic prescribed by a doctor for someone who has diabetes and is very overweight.
1:05:38
It could also mean the Wolverine stack taken by a 15-year-old in a gym in Miami, right?
1:05:46
And like there's a wide gap here.
1:05:46
So let's maybe narrow it down a little bit to probably off label use.
1:05:50
I don't know exactly where where the where things start to get fuzzy for you guys, but defining a little bit more of where the actual point of debate because I imagine that there's agreement with the extremes. >> Yeah.
1:06:06
I mean, isn't isn't there a problem when we have to redefine semantics that have been defined forever?
1:06:10
You know, isn't this like somebody saying, you know, I'm using uh you know, GPT instead of using AI or something like that?
1:06:18
Like there's a specific meaning like peptide has this very specific meaning and they're not new.
1:06:23
They're they're 80 years old.
1:06:25
People have been using peptides forever.
1:06:27
And in fact in pharma you try to avoid peptides because of their their inherent weaknesses.
1:06:31
You go for small molecules or really large molecules like antibodies.
1:06:36
Peptides are sort of the worst of both worlds. Mhm.
1:06:39
>> Um, so the idea that we've taken this kind of like last place drug class and then turned that into like the the standard bearer for do-it-yourself medicine is is kind of humorous to anybody who actually understands pharma.
1:06:53
>> Except that the last uh the last uh drug class has the potentially most impactful drug of all time or set of drugs of all time, the GLP-1 receptor agonists.
1:07:01
So I'm not saying we only have peptides in the toolkit.
1:07:05
I'm saying the genies out of the bottle and we cannot ignore peptides as a tool in the toolkit.
1:07:08
Small molecules just like I just framing framing it for people who don't kind of understand the difference between these things.
1:07:15
Um small molecules are made synthetically.
1:07:17
Uh peptides tend to be derived from what already is happening in the body, right?
1:07:21
DNA is the building block of the body and encodes for RNA which produces proteins and peptides.
1:07:25
So these peptides naturally occur.
1:07:27
Now it can sometimes be hard to patent a naturally occurring thing.
1:07:31
You can but it's a little bit harder.
1:07:32
Small molecules on the other hand are things that humans design to block biology to block typically block something that is happening in the body.
1:07:40
And again, I'm not saying small molecules are bad, but they're they're kind of the the two different modalities we're talking about here.
1:07:46
And we've seen one category of peptides, GLP1s, already change the world, and my contention is that there are other categories of peptides that are under researched, but have really interesting kind of clinical vignettes that might change the world going forward. Mhm.
1:08:00
Martin's large, >> but but but the but the >> but I think like why we're having this conversation is because people are just, you know, injecting a number of them into themselves now.
1:08:10
And you're saying they might change the world, but people are going through the process of self experimentation.
1:08:17
And there's a bunch of companies, private companies that are happily facilitating this and and profiting off of it when it seems to be a large number of risks that are still unknown.
1:08:29
At least that's my my point of view. >> Yes. >> Yeah, exactly.
1:08:36
>> So, >> yeah, I think that's right.
1:08:37
>> So, so, so maybe maybe let's start with um uh stuff that's not fully FDA approved.
1:08:43
I think the canonical example would be like the Chinese peptides, the reetta, the stuff you buy online and inject and it's based on some interesting scientific literature but it hasn't actually been through the full FDA process yet.
1:08:56
Where do both of you stand on that? >> Yeah.
1:09:00
I mean, why why do you have a right to pirate somebody's intellectual property?
1:09:03
>> Oh, >> you know, this this is this is the property of Eli Liy. They discovered it.
1:09:08
They spent billions of dollars on it. >> You want to steal it?
1:09:09
You want to work with a Chinese company stealing it?
1:09:11
I mean, that's not good for America.
1:09:15
That's not good for the drug industry.
1:09:16
And guess where these where do these drugs come from?
1:09:18
They come from American R&D labs.
1:09:21
>> And if you keep stealing them and pirating them in this like weird twilight like, you know, DIY drug system, which is not very large, uh, at least compared to pharma.
1:09:31
You know, I don't know if you make a big impact, but if if it went very large scale, you would.
1:09:37
I mean you you would stop having drugs the same way pirating music would would you know have huge ramifications for the music ecosystem.
1:09:43
So you have to respect intellectual property to some extent and then taking a true tide which is just sort of a GLP plus if you will uh instead of just waiting it for it to be FDA approved or like using ompic.
1:09:55
I think this is like the worst riskreward decision uh you could possibly make.
1:10:02
It's like some of the decisions I used to make in the past.
1:10:04
to make in the past. um you know what is your upside to to taking illegally manufactured reducide from some other place and you can't verify it etc versus just taking gopic uh the people that are take peptides and have these peptide stacks are mostly people in SF maybe New
1:10:21
York they're very wealthy people they don't know what the rest of the world looks like nobody else in middle middle America is excited to do this it's not normal max to inject yourself with things um you know this isn't like a a thing everyone should be doing. Uh and
1:10:34
Uh and so to me, the Red True type case is really insane because this is a drug that Eli Liy is going to get approved eventually.
1:10:43
>> Uh and and the fact that you know there are people dying of certain terrible diseases and they need compassionate use.
1:10:49
They need to get on uh extension programs but nobody needs reach now right now before agree on this.
1:10:55
So I think the things we agree on are that um the existing FDA approved GLP-1 receptor agonists are an interesting category of drug and they're a peptide and they're impactful.
1:11:05
I think we also agree that um companies should not do things illegally and infringe on the patent for reta right I do think the patent system incentivizes innovation.
1:11:13
I think the crux of where we disagree is not and and ju just quickly on the this is the NSF thing that is not true.
1:11:19
If you speak I know dozens of people who own these research use companies and if you speak to them the majority of their audience is middle America not not not SF tech bros despite the tech bros being noisy on Twitter.
1:11:29
I think the crux of where we probably disagree is the 14 or so peptides that RFK has said they might move from category one two meaning they cannot be compounded back to category one meaning they can be compounded.
1:11:40
And I guess my like general statement here um is that uh people are taking these compounds, right?
1:11:47
They're already using them at scale, right?
1:11:49
And the way to minimize risk, the way to minimize risk is to move them from category 2 to category 1, right?
1:11:56
To legalize them because the risky thing is the dodgy supply chain we have today. the risky thing.
1:12:02
>> Well, isn't the isn't the risk isn't Isn't the risky thing just doing like massive sort of unofficial, you know, human trials when we don't >> I don't think so.
1:12:12
So, I think I think that is true um for peptides that we do not have longitudinal clinical experience and patient experience with.
1:12:25
But let's take something like BPC157, which is one of the most controversial ones.
1:12:29
So let's let's go right to the meat of things.
1:12:31
Let's take something like BBC57.
1:12:34
My contention is that thousands of doctors prescribed this.
1:12:37
They do and have prescribed this for 10.
1:12:41
>> You can't prescribe this drug.
1:12:42
>> Um they give it to their patients, right?
1:12:44
You can prescribe semantics give it to their patients. >> It's not a drug. >> Thousands do that.
1:12:51
>> My statement is not the semantics of prescribing.
1:12:53
My statement is thousands do this.
1:12:55
>> My other statement is that millions of patients have taken this.
1:12:57
At least hundreds of thousands, I believe millions have taken this. >> Yeah.
1:13:01
>> And that clinical experience again is not an RCT, but we cannot ignore it. >> Yes, you can. >> We can. >> Yes, you can. Absolutely.
1:13:09
>> Wait, wait, wait, wait.
1:13:09
It sounds like there's some sort of fundamental disagreement here about like the way BPC57 is being distributed right now because I know people that have told me that they've taken it.
1:13:19
Uh, I thought that they were getting it prescribed or recommended to them.
1:13:24
Like Martin, what is your >> We can agree that it's being given to them.
1:13:28
>> I think I I think they're getting it, but what's actually what's actually happening here?
1:13:33
>> How is this happening?
1:13:34
>> Out out in the back alley.
1:13:34
They meet in the back alley.
1:13:37
>> It doesn't seem like that.
1:13:37
It seems like it seems like there are doctors that do have the ability doctors in the world.
1:13:42
So, when I was first introduced to peptides, uh, one of the most esteemed doctors in the US said to me, Max, you take so many supplements.
1:13:48
Have you explored peptides?
1:13:49
Because I think they're a really interesting modality with a few decades of clinical use. >> Sure. Right.
1:13:54
And I when he said that to me, I was like, "No way.
1:13:56
This is this is I'm not injecting myself with something that was weird."
1:13:59
So what I did is I went around to around 20 different doctors whose opinion >> trusted your gut.
1:14:05
>> Who who whose opinions I respect.
1:14:08
>> And I asked them about peptides.
1:14:08
And normally when you ask these doctors about anything, you ask them about red meat, you ask them about spinach, they're all divided, right?
1:14:14
They're all like one for you, enough for you, punches with peptides, just about all of them except one said, "These are really interesting.
1:14:22
I have used these in my patients. Okay.
1:14:24
I believe the endogenous molecules, the peptides that exist in our body are going to be the future of medicine.
1:14:30
>> And those doctors have the incentive to not be wrong.
1:14:33
If they're wrong, they could go to jail.
1:14:35
If they're wrong, they can have their license stripped.
1:14:36
If they're wrong, patients don't come back to them.
1:14:39
So, they have the maximum incentive.
1:14:40
And for 10 to 20 years, they still give this to their patients and their patients say, "My life changed."
1:14:46
Now, you might say it's placebo.
1:14:46
My statement is the patient says their life changes and the doctor sees that.
1:14:49
Okay, Martin, I want you to react, but but I also want you to to sort of set aside the intellectual property argument.
1:14:55
I I like that argument, but let's focus on the the what doctors are doing, how BPC157 is being delivered, that type of thing.
1:15:04
>> So, so I'm a drug hunter, right?
1:15:04
People like me, Vav Ramaswami, we look all around the world for medicine to buy and medicine to put into companies that great firms like A16Z and Founders Fund and other more healthcare maybe focused firms will fund, take it to the IPO, which I've done before, and get paid huge amounts of money. That's what I do. That's what I'm good at.
1:15:24
That's why I'm the farmer bro.
1:15:25
BPC157 is the biggest scam I've ever seen.
1:15:28
It does absolutely nothing.
1:15:29
There's no redeemable value to this.
1:15:32
Do you know the story about it? Do you guys know? Do you already know? >> Please tell us.
1:15:34
this guy in Croatia made it.
1:15:37
Sich um my my hinterland brother.
1:15:37
Uh and you know the only publications about this drug are by him.
1:15:45
Nobody else has published about this drug. It's it's not a drug.
1:15:50
In fact, nobody has even confirmed that it it's a peptide from the gastric juice as he claimed.
1:15:54
Uh nobody can find a sequence that matches that.
1:15:58
And the gastric juice of human beings has been thoroughly profiled.
1:16:00
Uh it's it's a 15 peptide. So it's 15 amino acids. Halflife is minutes.
1:16:05
There's no plausible physiological basis for it to work.
1:16:11
And it's it's been in clinical trials.
1:16:13
PVA was a local drug company in the Balkans. Very well respected.
1:16:15
My add licensed BPC and tried to do clinical trials for it. And guess what? They failed.
1:16:22
failed. So this this like weird like you think it's placebo effect thing is placebo effect because yeah I've talked to people that say it's good for recovery and I can imagine if you're sticking yourself with something you
1:16:36
might feel like ah I'm less sore today because it just >> while you while you are recovering you think that the drug is helping you and of course it is and it's the recovery process you're going through and there's a there's an app for this. If you want
1:16:45
If you want to make real money, go make BPC in CGMP conditions and go do a clinical trial and you can be a trillion dollar company like Eli Liy.
1:16:54
Instead, you can putts around, you know, buying fake Chinese stuff and then injecting yourself and dreaming that you're doing well.
1:16:59
I have a drug here that if I take might also aid my recovery no should I try this?
1:17:06
Should I tell you that it works for me? Is it an N of one?
1:17:11
Oh my god, I did so great with this N of one.
1:17:14
uh you know it it healed my recovery like this is nonsense. This is not science.
1:17:18
Science is controlled experiments that are well done very very carefully documented and so forth.
1:17:23
Why are we going backwards?
1:17:25
Why do we go forwards in in in civilization and society?
1:17:29
What is this urge by the valley and I blame the valley >> uh to go backwards in time and space?
1:17:36
>> I I hear your view and I think other people will have it and we don't know whether these are placebo or not yet.
1:17:41
You can't make a definitive statement and we don't have the RCT.
1:17:44
>> Wait, but I thought you I thought you said there there was studies done on BBC 157.
1:17:51
>> No, there there aren't human there are no human studies done.
1:17:52
Uh we >> there was one done by PA and it failed.
1:17:58
>> One study there are dozens of studies of drugs that become commercialized that previously fail.
1:18:01
Anyway, my my view is we don't know whether it's placebo or not yet.
1:18:05
That that is true and some people will say it's placebo, some will say it's not.
1:18:08
My statement is really simple which is you can have Marson's view or you can have the view of thousands of doctors who have used this for 10 to 20 years and have their license in the line.
1:18:16
The view of millions of patients who talk about their lives changing. You can have that view.
1:18:21
My dad's visiting from Australia and he's been taking painkillers for the past 4 months and can't walk upstairs cuz his back is bad.
1:18:27
>> He took BBC57 for 3 days and he said to me, "Max, this is the first time in 4 months I haven't taken a painkiller."
1:18:35
Again, I'm not saying this isn't placebo.
1:18:36
I'm saying we don't know.
1:18:36
What I'm saying is I am God.
1:18:38
I'm really happy my dad's not in a painkiller. >> Right.
1:18:41
My co-founder, he lost three organs in hospital.
1:18:43
He had an autoimmune disease.
1:18:45
They put him in biologics. He took BPC 157.
1:18:46
He's off biologics and he doesn't have an autoimmune disease anymore.
1:18:50
Again, we will put our money and fund the studies.
1:18:55
Um, >> put your money where your mouth is. Exactly.
1:18:57
We can't We can't ignore the real world evidence.
1:18:59
Again, >> well, you are ignoring it if you're not putting your money where your mouth is.
1:19:03
If you believe that's true, >> No, we are. >> No, no, no.
1:19:05
Do do a do a clinical trial.
1:19:07
>> We are >> tell me about it.
1:19:10
>> We we're we're in the process of chatting with the people required to set up a clinical trial for this because we will put our money where our mouth is because I've seen thousands of doctors, millions of patients and even the FDA, right, who have said they're going to start legalizing even the FDA.
1:19:24
>> Okay, >> but Max, >> you can have your view and I don't that's okay.
1:19:26
People will have that view.
1:19:28
I will have an opposite view and I'll put my money where my mouth is.
1:19:30
>> Max, you've never done a clinical trial before, right?
1:19:32
before, right? you you've never invested in drug companies before but you want to do your first clinical trial on on this drug which you didn't invent you know you see you've heard anecdotal evidence about why because I have seen thousands of doctors
1:19:47
millions of patients over one to two decades right go say to my friend um go back on biologics go back to hospital lose another organ say go say to my dad go back on painkillers every single day I don't want my dad on painkillers every single Okay. Now, you might say that's
1:20:01
Now, you might say that's placebo. I say I don't know.
1:20:03
But I say with the evidence that we currently have, I believe there's more to >> see.
1:20:09
You should see what this galaxy gas does for me. It's amazing. >> The galaxy. Okay.
1:20:15
>> No, but what's your question?
1:20:15
Is your question, Martin, more that like Okay, you >> No pharma guy in their right mind would do this. >> Well, hold on. Hold on.
1:20:22
Uh, so no pharma guy would do it.
1:20:24
Max clearly believes in this.
1:20:26
And and what is the intersection of these two things?
1:20:29
Is it possible to do the type of study that you're talking about with Silicon Valley backing?
1:20:34
Is a $30 million series A enough to get started or do you need to go to Wall Street, IPO, do the biotech thing?
1:20:44
>> No, you can I I mean plenty of private plenty of private companies do this.
1:20:48
There's hundreds if not actually I would say there's thousands of private biotechs. Okay.
1:20:52
>> Generally, they would pass on something like this. >> Well, yeah. Yeah.
1:20:55
So why so so there's this body of body of anecdotal evidence. >> Mhm. >> Yeah. Unpublished evidence. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
1:21:04
So So certainly a a drug certainly a drug hunter would have looked at this already, right?
1:21:11
>> Martin, is you're saying the only admissible evidence is an RCT? >> Yes.
1:21:16
>> And what about all of all of the examples of when something works before anything works with an RCT?
1:21:20
There's a time when it works precct.
1:21:22
Do you know that in animals? >> Uh, no.
1:21:26
In humans, there are times when before there's an RCT or >> Yes, it does happen sometimes. Yes. >> Yes.
1:21:31
Look, >> they're intelligently because they're intelligently designed drugs >> that were designed to do a specific thing >> and they do the specific thing and then they work. >> Mhm. >> Yep. >> This is not that.
1:21:43
And you think your statement, your singular statement of placebo outweighs the again, we don't know, but I'm saying on the facts we have today, there is more to support the fact this is more likely than not placebo than the >> alternative.
1:21:56
I would I would bet anything.
1:21:58
I would I would bet anything.
1:21:59
No trial of BPC would work. >> Okay. I guess we'll see. >> Uh what else?
1:22:04
So So Max, are you is superpower facilitating people getting BPC 157 today?
1:22:13
No, we won't sell anything that is not legal to compound, but I I believe the FDA will make it legal to compound soon and then sell it.
1:22:19
And I believe the FDA should make it legal to compound because the genie's out of the bottle.
1:22:23
People have seen their lives changed and they're getting it anyway. >> What else?
1:22:26
What else are what else are you excited about >> because when people say when people people say peptides with an SOP for one is fascinating approved in 35 countries I take and I never get sick.
1:22:39
I used to get sick four or five times a year.
1:22:43
I had the most elaborate immune stacks.
1:22:45
None of those elaborate immune stacks, 100 things placebo meos now for one.
1:22:49
Everyone around me had co CO a few few months back and I didn't get it.
1:22:52
Uh a bunch of people around me had influenza. I didn't get it.
1:22:55
Every time I get a sore throat, I take BBC 157 DOS now for one and the sore throat disappears.
1:23:01
Now this is a drug that is approved in 35 countries, right?
1:23:02
Has has some some human human data.
1:23:06
Now, farmer in the US hasn't hasn't brought it through trials because they can't patent something that had existed for several years.
1:23:14
Um, so I think thyos alpha one is a really interesting one as well.
1:23:18
>> Okay, Martin, your reaction. >> Yeah.
1:23:19
Well, drug drug companies can and do patent things that that have existed before.
1:23:23
They're >> agree with that. I did not say that.
1:23:24
I said thyos now for one in the form that is approved in other countries. They cannot patent. >> Yeah.
1:23:30
And you don't even have to patent a drug, right?
1:23:31
You can get seven years orphan exclusivity, 5 years of NCE exclusivity.
1:23:35
There's a lot of ways to make money in pharma and pharma if you haven't noticed. >> So I agree with that.
1:23:40
I agree that they could find some rare disease indication and use thyos alpha one against it and get a patent.
1:23:46
My statement is that they could not get a composition of matter patent for thyos alpha one in the way that doctors and patients are using it today. >> Sure.
1:23:54
I mean you you can change molecules too.
1:23:55
I mean there there's a lot of ways >> I I I know why would they >> do medicine and so we're saying the machinery of the FDA requires something works.
1:24:04
We see it in 35 countries.
1:24:04
The only way to get it patented is we got to change the molecule and spend 300 million to3 billion. What is that?
1:24:09
Like what is that for a system, >> right?
1:24:13
That's regulatory capture by farmer to me.
1:24:15
>> I I wouldn't say that necessarily.
1:24:15
I think that there there are benefits to to making drugs stronger.
1:24:20
Like I said earlier, >> drugs peptides are the weakest form of drug.
1:24:26
They're not the >> except the the best but maybe the best drug of all time is a peptide. >> Yeah.
1:24:31
But it's very it's it's one of very few.
1:24:33
very few. I would say 5% of drugs by revenue >> today today right five years ago we didn't even have GLP1s 10 years ago we didn't we >> peptides were were and probably always will be a backwater just because they're they're very weak they have no pharmacological
1:24:50
properties that are beneficial like like a good half-life and in fact the naked peptide GLPs don't work either they have to be heavily modified by pharmaceutical chemistry >> we know this is not true there's an there's FDA approved peptide with a very short halfife. Semarellin diosin alpha
1:25:05
Semarellin diosin alpha one has a very short halfife. >> Yeah.
1:25:09
No, there are drugs that long halfife to have an effect. We know this. We know this.
1:25:12
The FDA know 35 other countries know this.
1:25:16
>> There are some drugs that that can work with short halfife, but almost every drug guy will tell you that you want a h a long halflife so you don't have to keep taking the drug.
1:25:24
There are some drugs >> correct and that is fine.
1:25:25
And we we have methods now with science to extend the halfife of these compounds and that's part of where the research is going.
1:25:32
This is called pharmaceuticals. >> Correct.
1:25:35
>> That's what the industry is. We have an FDA for it.
1:25:37
We have all these rules for it.
1:25:39
And I don't think we should change that.
1:25:41
I mean, these are the the things that have made American pharmaceuticals the one of the greatest industries ever.
1:25:48
Um to to start to move away from evidence-based medicine is is a you know, it's potentially very risky and scary thing.
1:25:54
I think the riskier thing is there being a gray market because the genies out of the bottle and people are getting these regardless.
1:26:00
I think it's far safer to get them through GMP certified compoundingies in the way that the reg the FDA has oversight over rather than the state we're in today which is the gray market.
1:26:11
>> And this isn't a debate between no peptide and legal.
1:26:13
It's a debate between gray market or white market.
1:26:15
And I contend white market is net less harm, net higher benefit for the US people.
1:26:21
>> I think we should treat them like we treat controlled substances, right?
1:26:24
I mean, why that there's a very specific set of laws that states what you're allowed to traffic on interstate commerce or not.
1:26:34
And you need a a BLA or an NDA or 505B2 to traffic a drug across interstate commerce in the United States of America.
1:26:41
And that that that changing that I I don't think is useful or or helpful.
1:26:45
No matter how many people on Reddit think that they want to play Dr.
1:26:48
House today, that's not something that, you know, they should be engaged in.
1:26:51
So this is why I think they need to be legalized because I don't think what we have today is safe.
1:26:55
I don't think people going to gray market uh uharmacies and injecting anything into their body is safe.
1:27:01
What I do think is far safer and net lower harm and higher benefit the American people is these things being regulated in category 1 and produced in GMP certified facilities and prescribed by doctors. That is safer.
1:27:11
So the net harm reducing case is making these category one and legal to be prescribed by doctors.
1:27:18
Not all of them, but the ones where we have a sufficient safety signal and a sufficient effectiveness signal.
1:27:26
>> There there is an arbitrator for that already. It's called the FDA.
1:27:27
I mean, why you want a second, I guess, special like specialed version of the FDA for drugs that didn't quite make it so clearly efficacious.
1:27:40
Uh what I'm saying is many of these things the FDA might not ever want to to to to research because the patent is hard because they target wellness and prevention and human optimization rather than disease.
1:27:52
And the FDA loves their cancer therapeutics.
1:27:54
And my statement is if we have sufficient safety and efficacy signals, we reduce net harm by making them legal today. Um we reduce net harm.
1:28:05
And try saying to the person who used to be in biologics with autoimmune disease, you have to wait 20 years for something that might never be researched by by by big farmer, right?
1:28:14
Try saying to my dad who was on painkillers the past 4 months every single day that you know what this compound you took for 3 days that has been used for two decades.
1:28:21
Go back to your painkillers.
1:28:22
Try saying that to them and maybe maybe one day farmer maybe in 101 15 years we'll research this. We don't even know. Say that to them.
1:28:30
>> Martin, it sounds like uh there's a There's a sort of a a mischaracterization of your argument that I'll let you push back on that you're arguing that uh that the FDA has no problems that the FDA is perfectly efficient and that seems crazy.
1:28:47
I feel like everyone's upset with every aspect of the government all the time.
1:28:52
Uh, is it are you saying that the FDA is anywhere near approving anywhere near to the speed required to approve new drugs, new research as quickly as they could?
1:29:06
>> I'd say they're pretty good.
1:29:06
Uh, you know, I I hate almost every part of the US government, but that's that that's uh that's one I do like and I advise the US government and and I feel like >> this is something that, you know, could not be further from our our collective benefit.
1:29:22
Um, comp companies love making money. It's capital.
1:29:25
>> You think you prefer the gray market?
1:29:27
>> You think the gray market? >> I prefer no market.
1:29:30
>> You don't have the choice of no market.
1:29:32
The genie is out of the bottle. Is out of the bottle. >> What does that mean? >> What? What that means?
1:29:37
>> We can arrest the genie. We can give the genie.
1:29:40
What that means, doctors have prescribed these compounds and they're doing everything they possibly can to get their hands on them.
1:29:48
And that can be very risky.
1:29:48
And what I'm saying is we have safety and efficacy signals in millions of patients with thousands of doctors in 10 to 20 years.
1:29:55
>> So Max is arguing that like a war on drugs will not work.
1:29:58
It hasn't worked in the past. It is impossible.
1:30:03
No because if these are if it's gray market that means illegal like Martin is arguing that we can arrest the genie. But can we Martin?
1:30:10
Can we actually arrest the genie?
1:30:12
because it seems like there's a lot of genies and you had a product behind you that I think might be not legal either and that was probably available in a corner store and I know that there are t dozens of illegal flavored ecigarettes and vaporizers that come over and they make their way into bodeas all over the United States and like this just happens >> provably harmful and they still provably harmful things do it.
1:30:36
I'm saying these things doctors have their license on the line.
1:30:40
>> I don't think I don't think doctors want to recommend peptides.
1:30:42
I I don't think doctors like recommending non-FDA approved drugs.
1:30:46
I I've never met one that did.
1:30:49
>> Well, I know thousands of doctors who do.
1:30:50
And I'm saying >> thousands of I don't know thousands of doctors.
1:30:53
I spent my whole thousand is such a big number. >> So many doctors.
1:30:56
>> Um and and what I'm saying is I agree they shouldn't recommend things gray market.
1:31:00
What I'm saying is let's legalize because that is net safer for the American people.
1:31:04
You're saying that you're saying that you can win.
1:31:07
You're saying you're saying that that if we hang out in the gray market, you think it's actually possible to shut down gray market activity. Is that true?
1:31:17
>> I think you can shut it down.
1:31:17
And then I also think that we have a perfectly great system, which is the normal regulatory body we've had for 60 years. Yes.
1:31:26
>> And creating, like I said, a new specialed version of it for drugs that couldn't quite get on the school bus. Yes.
1:31:32
you know, is not something that uh we should do because we have a rigorous way to determine if drugs work or not.
1:31:40
>> Let's get rid of all gray market and my friend can go back on biologics.
1:31:45
>> Go back on painkillers.
1:31:46
>> You should >> um all of the farmer can continue making hundreds of thousands of dollars from these biologics. Let's do that. Sure. And you know what?
1:31:53
We're not going to shut that. You get what I'm saying? >> Uh one more thing.
1:31:56
So, so M Martin, your stance is generally that uh these drugs just haven't proven to be that good.
1:32:04
They've been around for long enough that a bunch of smart pharma bros and sisters would have like, you know, taken them through trials already if they really >> We take a lot of bad stuff through trials.
1:32:14
You know, BPC isn't even doesn't even come close to the muster of of a farmer bro. >> Yeah. Okay.
1:32:20
And so so it's it's it's weak.
1:32:23
You're saying there's a placebo that you think is probably real, but then what is the what is the risk, right?
1:32:30
Because if somebody's saying like, "Okay, it's a weak drug.
1:32:32
I maybe get a placebo effect.
1:32:34
Maybe maybe maybe it just helps."
1:32:36
But why should somebody >> avoid these >> avoid it entirely regardless of if they're available on the gray market or on this like, you know, >> new version of >> I just think we shouldn't normalize making drugs in your bathtub.
1:32:48
I think that, you know, there's there's no evidence that any of these things are wellmade.
1:32:54
Uh I think we should leave medicine to the experts.
1:32:57
I think that's something is very reluctant to do.
1:32:58
Uh many people want to feel in a world where maybe they feel like they're losing control, they want to control this thing or a world where we're losing confidence in government, we want to take this into our own hands and it's just not the way to do things.
1:33:11
just not the way to do things. uh medicine has progressed dramatically thanks to the capitalist system uh and the biioharmaceutical system in league with the FDA which doesn't always get it right but is is quite good and you know thanks to that we have drugs for cystic fibrosis we have a cure for cystic
1:33:27
fibrosis we have drugs for SMA we have these terrible diseases and one last thing is that a lot of these people in SV you're perfectly healthy you know you're you're talking about two sick people there a second ago but most of the people I know on these peptides they're taking a medapanyl They're taking drugs for diseases they don't have. >> And this is not, you know, the the a
1:33:45
>> And this is not, you know, the the a great use of people's time or or or great for their health.
1:33:50
And in some some to some extent, the government does exist to help protect people from them themselves and their own stupidity.
1:33:58
>> And then Max, you're planning to take BPC 157 through clinical trials.
1:34:01
Are you planning to take any of these other peptides through? >> Yes.
1:34:10
And what what is the where where does that ultimately where does that ultimately go? >> Yeah.
1:34:16
So we're working with a handful of different biotech companies that are taking these through clinical trials.
1:34:19
Um we're in the early days of of setting that up.
1:34:25
Um and uh my my statement is not anti- FDA or anti the machinery we have.
1:34:32
I think it solves a lot of purposes.
1:34:33
I just think it doesn't solve all purposes.
1:34:35
And my statement is not that the current system is always perfectly right.
1:34:38
I think when new data comes along, when new science comes along, uh when there's a dangerous gray market, we need to accept that the times have changed and adapt the regulation.
1:34:52
It has solves a lot of purposes.
1:34:52
There are many parts of it that are exceptional, but it is not complete.
1:34:55
And I'm saying that we should do what the FDA has said they're doing, which is legalize several of the category 2 peptides that have the strongest safety and efficacy efficacy signals because that reduces net harm for patients and increases net benefit even if pharma doesn't necessarily like it because they're not making money from their $100,000 biologic drug anymore. >> Sure.
1:35:21
>> Martin, any closing statements? It's been great.
1:35:23
>> Yeah, I just want to say pharma did try to develop BPC and failed. >> Yeah. Yeah. Okay. We went through that. It's a good point.
1:35:28
Uh well, thank you so much for joining today. Thank you to you both.
1:35:32
Everyone had a great time.
1:35:34
>> Good job keeping it civil, boys. >> Yeah. Very civil. This is very civil. Very professional. >> Do this again.
1:35:38
Again, next time a new peptide goes viral.
1:35:41
We'd love to have you both on the show independently or together.
1:35:44
Uh have a great rest of your day.
1:35:46
Have a great week and we will talk to you soon. Goodbye.
1:35:50
>> Let me tell you about console. com.
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1:36:06
Up next, we have Mitchell Green, the founder and managing partner at Lead Edge Capital.
1:36:10
The news, Lead Edge has closed a $3. 5 billion 7 fund.
1:36:17
>> What's going on, Mitchell? Great to see you. >> How's life?
1:36:19
By the way, somebody likes Diet Coke. I like Coke Zero. I got Coke Zero better. >> Coke Zero guy. Coke Zero.
1:36:25
Did you go through a diet Coke phase or you >> I did in the I did back in the day and then Coke Coke Zero came out and I started drinking that.
1:36:32
I'm pretty sure both of them are going to kill us, but that's fine.
1:36:36
>> Well, you and John are running the AB test.
1:36:37
I'm I'm having the podcast in a can from Andrew.
1:36:40
Um, congrats on the new fund. Uh, big big number. Take us through it. >> Yeah. So, no, it's good.
1:36:48
So, it's just a continuation of uh fund six uh you know, fund 7 three and a half billion.
1:36:54
We uh really raised it late last fall.
1:36:58
Raised it raised it late last fall.
1:37:01
Uh but no, it was uh it was good.
1:37:03
Look, the I we really didn't know what to expect about the fundraising market.
1:37:09
Everybody had said it' been really really hard, but then you see these big giant funds get raised.
1:37:16
Um and so no we had we had a lot of uh interest from existing LPS and some new LPs and things like that.
1:37:25
>> What is contrarian about lead edges stance as a fund or or messaging to LPs?
1:37:32
You know this is a software focused fund.
1:37:34
Uh some people at least on X would would say you guys are crazy to have that positioning.
1:37:41
Uh but certainly the the results have been fantastic.
1:37:44
Yeah, look prior history means nothing about the future.
1:37:49
Uh as well I think the things that make us contrarian and like different in the world.
1:37:57
One um our LP base and how unique it is.
1:38:01
We have all these like you know while we do have big institutions 95% of our capital comes from people that are like you know world-class exeacts and entrepreneurs.
1:38:08
You guys probably had a bunch of our LPs on the show.
1:38:10
You could look on our website and see examples of a bunch of these people and then how we leverage these people throughout the investment life cycle, whether they help with diligence, whether they help with um you know helping c customer intros, recruiting, advisory for companies.
1:38:22
I think that makes us different than most people.
1:38:26
people. um what we invest in is you know look we just take a very um focused approach and we're just like listen you have to meet x number of our eight criteria five criteria and and it's like are you 25 million in are you 10 million plus in revenue where you're
1:38:44
growing 25% a year are you profitable you know are your revenues greater than your historical cash burn cumitively like and again you have to meet five of of the eight and so that just that kills a lot of companies we might otherwise guys. Um, you know, see, and again, we
1:38:57
Um, you know, see, and again, we just find companies that meet those criteria.
1:39:03
And so, you know, a first couple deals in the fund, you know, without naming the companies, you know, one is a $500 million, you know, last year did 500 million of ARR software business.
1:39:15
Um, growing 50 plus% a year.
1:39:20
We funded another private equity fund that owned it.
1:39:24
their like continuation vehicle cuz we what makes us contrary is we're very unique in that way.
1:39:30
We're like we'll buy 10% of a company in a minority deal, put money on the balance sheet, we'll buy, you know, secondary from an early investor, we'll buy 80% of the company, you know, we'll do everything.
1:39:41
It it's it's really kind of just we just want to get into the best businesses.
1:39:44
And look, we invest in businesses that grow, that have super high gross mar that have 70 plus% gross margins, that are hopefully capital efficient, that have like really happy customers with high gross prot gross dollar attention.
1:39:58
Software is one of those buckets. >> Yeah.
1:40:02
>> As well as, you know, financial financial information technology companies, information services companies, payments businesses, internet marketplaces.
1:40:11
We've invested in logistics businesses.
1:40:14
If it meets the criteria, we'll invest.
1:40:16
There are still the whole idea that software is all going to zero is a bunch of complete utter nonsense. >> Yeah.
1:40:25
We were talking to uh Carl Echinbach uh on the day he rejoined Sequoia last Thursday about the SAS apocalypse and he was just stressing the the the fact of how sticky these relationships are and the fact that people buy things from other people.
1:40:40
they're not just going to overnight switch everything and how they do their business.
1:40:44
Uh what are you actually seeing?
1:40:46
How have you processed the SAS apocalypse?
1:40:48
Have you processed uh this idea of all these uh legacy systems just being upended overnight?
1:40:53
I >> mean, it's like complete utter nonsense. That was a buddy.
1:40:57
I'll see him if actually >> that was great. >> I think we're fine.
1:41:01
I think we're I I think I'm literally going to go back with him from the board meeting.
1:41:04
Um >> no, no, he's fantastic.
1:41:06
I mean, >> let's not forget that the US government still runs I think like I think we think the huge opportunity we do some public stuff as well.
1:41:14
So, we actually own own workday.
1:41:16
Um, and by the way, I think a 99% gross dollar retention business. Yeah.
1:41:21
>> Um, >> the US government still runs on Peopleoft and most banks that people use in America run off of mainframe computers. >> Yeah.
1:41:30
So, you know, open-source when people say the apocalypse, SAS apocalypse, all software is going to zero.
1:41:37
I think what people fundamentally get wrong is is that they think like R&D is the is like the most important thing in these companies like writing the code. >> Yeah.
1:41:49
>> It hasn't been for decades.
1:41:49
Like open- source software is a big industry. Yeah.
1:41:54
companies like Graphana, Datab Bricks, Elastic, Hashi Corp, Red Hat, there's there's 20 more of them.
1:42:00
You can get that stuff for free. >> Yeah.
1:42:03
>> The reason that enterprises pay for it is they need somebody to deal with with, you know, customer support, security patches, user authentication, this stuff's like very complicated to do.
1:42:14
>> I think I think with software companies are going to become and by the way, there's there's going to be ones that survive and there's going to be ones that don't.
1:42:21
All that we see you see in periods of technological change is like things can happen really fast and it's not only software companies but it could be like automotive companies.
1:42:30
If you're Stellantis and you have tons of debt and you're I'm totally making this up and you're Ford and you have no debt.
1:42:36
Well, if you believe AI and robotics are going to come to to manufacturing well like >> Ford can invest, Stellantis cannot >> and like they very well may disrupt you know Ford may completely disrupt Stalantis.
1:42:49
It's going to happen across industries here.
1:42:51
By by you saw at 99 in 2000 with like, you know, e-commerce companies.
1:42:56
Some traditional retailers like Walmart and Home Depot did great. Some people did not.
1:43:00
The same thing is going to happen with, you know, with software companies.
1:43:04
By the way, the same thing is going to happen with accounting firms.
1:43:07
The same thing is going to happen with banks.
1:43:09
>> Like this stuff is going to completely revolutionize the world.
1:43:11
It won't do it as fast as people think. It was funny.
1:43:12
I I asked uh Claude yesterday to try to like book me like an appointment like I to get a haircut and I could do it online and had no idea how to do it.
1:43:23
Like I you know literally could have just picked up the phone and made a phone call and you know I saved myself 15 minutes. >> Yeah.
1:43:28
What what has your interaction been with private credit throughout your career?
1:43:32
There's a lot of headlines around the the debt load for some of these software companies and if the business model changes if that retention does shift that those private credit funds could be in trouble.
1:43:43
How have you been processing the stories around private >> so look about a third of what we do is control buyouts. >> Okay.
1:43:51
>> A buyout tends to have debt on it.
1:43:51
>> A buyout tends to have debt on it. um you know that being you know what I would say is now again the buyouts we're doing are not big enough and they tend to be growth buyouts like our average portfolio company grows 50% a year so we might just happen to find a company
1:44:07
that's 25 of revenue owned by owned by one guy that wants to sell 60% of his company >> but still wants to run it so we're not our deals are not big enough where we need to go to the private credit funds >> I agree with Jamie Diamond though but >> it's a canary in a coal mine but it's software. >> Yeah. >> Yeah.
1:44:24
>> This is what people are getting wrong. >> Yeah.
1:44:26
>> You don't think the private equity firms overpaid for industrial companies or services companies? >> Yeah.
1:44:31
>> Or anything like I tend to believe where AI is going to be disruptive is if a private equity firm bought a company, put a ton of leverage on it, and it's been running it for margin because they need to drive margins to pay the debt load because they put too much debt on it.
1:44:47
They won't be able to innovate.
1:44:47
So their competitor that doesn't have a lot of debt >> is going to um you know could win.
1:44:52
I think that is that doesn't apply to software companies.
1:44:56
That applies to everything.
1:44:58
>> Um I suspect that we're in an in any unregulated industry where you take a bunch of people to Wall Street, a bunch of people have done probably stupid things.
1:45:08
It's probably not the people getting it's probably not the people getting blamed for it.
1:45:11
It's probably the ones doing the blaming, frankly.
1:45:12
um if you kind of learn, you know, from uh from history on Wall Street.
1:45:17
Um >> but again, it's if the the private credit guys get paid, like they're going to get they'll get paid before the private equity funds.
1:45:25
I think we're going to sit here >> in 2030 and there's going to be a ton of these deals that were done in 2019, 2018, 2020, 2021 that screw just software.
1:45:36
It's like everybody at all the industries where like you're going to be looking at like very low >> singledigit, you know, low singledigit IRRs.
1:45:46
>> What's the oldest company you've ever bought or or invested in?
1:45:48
Have you ever looked at anything that's like over 50 years old?
1:45:52
Or I mean, I've just seen some of these like that are like, you know, oh, like you'll see like AOL is transacting now and we're and I'm like, oh, we haven't heard that name in a long >> that's only 30.
1:46:05
>> Well, then I'm actually I'm looking to see what a company Okay. Yeah. So, we own a business. >> Okay.
1:46:10
>> Um called Growth Zone. >> Okay.
1:46:13
>> That makes like Chamber of Commerce Association Management Software.
1:46:15
It's a new business, nicely profitable.
1:46:19
>> Um we the company was founded in 1996. >> 1996. Okay.
1:46:23
We own we own another >> we own another business um >> that it's so like that business started in 96 a different name >> in 2019 it was bought by like a small private equity fund >> we then bought that um >> but no we own a business um that we bought through an interest in a fund >> called um work human >> and this is a huge business super profitable big company >> it's an anti-ag AGI AGI bet. >> Yeah. Yeah.
1:46:55
And so Workhuman used to be called Global Force.
1:46:57
It's a big like HR software company.
1:47:00
Um and like a employee benefits company based up in Boston.
1:47:03
But I think the venture fund we bought out.
1:47:09
>> It was like a 2002 vintage venture fund. Wow.
1:47:12
>> And the investment was made in like 2004.
1:47:14
And the company has never raised capital since.
1:47:16
And it's a very large, you know, nine figure type like profit business. That's remarkable.
1:47:21
Uh, well, thanks so much for taking the time to come and hang out. Congratulations. We got to hit the gong. Congratulations.
1:47:33
>> Congrats to the whole team. >> See you guys. >> Great to see you. >> We'll see you soon. >> Cheers. >> Goodbye.
1:47:38
>> Let me tell you about Label Box.
1:47:38
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1:47:54
And let's kick off our Lambda Lightning round.
1:47:56
And we are going to be bringing in We nailed it. We nailed it. The cloud is active.
1:48:05
We are now in the Lambda Lightning round.
1:48:06
Let's bring in Shane from Air. Shane, how you doing?
1:48:10
>> How are you doing, guys?
1:48:10
Thanks so much for having me. >> Of course. Of course.
1:48:12
Great to great to see you.
1:48:14
Uh give us an update on what's going on in your world.
1:48:18
We um just released a new ad campaign yesterday in the New York Times um and have our our biggest product release we've ever pulled together here launching tomorrow. >> Amazing. Give us the pitch.
1:48:28
What's the tagline >> for the ad? >> For the ad.
1:48:33
>> The tagline for the ad is uh is AI will never smoke a cigarette with you.
1:48:36
Um and >> as someone who as someone who started a a company that directly competes with cigarettes, I have to boo.
1:48:43
But as someone who loves a good ad, I have to cheer.
1:48:48
>> I you know, I want to be clear.
1:48:48
I'm not endorsing smoking in any way, shape, or form.
1:48:51
I think um >> you know, look, I I feel like I feel like this is a this is a this is a Goodwill Hunting crowd, isn't it?
1:48:56
I feel like you guys watch Jordy definitely has seen Goodwill Hunting.
1:49:00
>> No, he's never seen a movie in his life. He's only seen Borat.
1:49:05
>> It's the only movie he's ever seen.
1:49:05
I think uh the the inspiration for the campaign came from uh a scene between Matt Damon, who's this >> cocky, overconfident uh sort of orphan, and his therapist, Robin Williams. >> Yeah.
1:49:20
>> And uh they're sitting on a park bench and Matt Damon is just going off.
1:49:24
He's doing his thing, you know, preaching the gospel of where the world is going.
1:49:28
And Robin Williams looks at him and he says, "Look, if I asked you about art, you would give me every history of every artist.
1:49:39
You would talk to me about Michelangelo, but you have no idea of what it smells like below the Systeine Chapel.
1:49:46
>> And if I asked you about love, you would probably send me a sonnet, >> but you have no idea what it feels like to be desperately vulnerable in front of someone else." Mhm.
1:49:56
>> And then he looks at Matt Damon and he says, "Look, if I needed to learn what what it was like to be an orphan, do you think I would just read Oliver Twist?"
1:50:06
And I think I think the reality is today that there's so many of these generative AI companies right now emerging through YC or starting to raise money and they're projecting what's going to happen with creative work.
1:50:17
Uh and and let me be clear.
1:50:21
I believe everything from nano to banana and seed dancing these models are so powerful in what they can do today.
1:50:26
But the reality is that creative work is deeply illogical. It it is two things.
1:50:31
It is both extremely subjective. >> Yeah.
1:50:36
>> And it starves for perfection all at the same time.
1:50:39
>> And so, you know, the belief that we have at Air fundamentally is that AI will never replace creative work.
1:50:42
And we're saying this as a technology company that's on the precipice, you know, of launching its most AIcentric feature set ever tomorrow.
1:50:53
>> So, I mean, I completely agree with you like AI is a tool.
1:50:55
I've loved using creative tools from the first version of Photoshop that I probably downloaded illegally all the way to After Effects and Cinema 4D, Houdini, and now Generative AI tools.
1:51:07
And I feel like there's it every time there's a new tool, you just increase the amount of uh amount of art, the amount of creativity, and things we usually get the good ending. It feels like it.
1:51:20
It feels like we're not, oh yeah, like we wish we could go back to the time before Photoshop, get rid of Figma, like no, no one wants to move backwards.
1:51:28
Everyone's happy with the tools.
1:51:30
Everyone's adapted, but it feels like there's still a lot of anxiety.
1:51:33
anxiety. like how how what do you think it takes to get people into the mindset of hey as an artist your job's just going to get more interesting more creative be able to do so much more and yes that will mean putting food on your plate and earning recognition for your work and being uh all the things that
1:51:50
you why you do what you do will still be there in a decade two decades a century >> yeah well I I think the first thing John is that as as an industry within the tech industry or as technologist ologist, we can't keep pontificating, you know, a narrative about like about this reality that like creative work is the CMO killer. If I see one more
1:52:10
If I see one more billboard on the 101 about the CMO killer, I'm going to lose, >> you're going to become a a killer yourself.
1:52:19
>> I'm going to lose my mind.
1:52:19
And and I think that, you know, you in what way, shape, or form is it a good idea >> to tell your customer that they're irrelevant? >> Yeah.
1:52:28
Um and and and you know look the fundamental belief that we have here at air is that the work is changing.
1:52:32
It's going to be less humans and more machines.
1:52:37
That's a that's an acknowledgement that I will be the first to admit.
1:52:42
>> But we have to stop imagining that these machines this this AGI concept we have for the future will get to a state where everything is automated and you don't need anybody in the loop.
1:52:51
And instead, if we built both products and brands in this industry that meet humans where they are and start to actually attack jobs to be done with automation, >> then great.
1:53:05
You know, at Air, we talk about giving creatives space to breathe, >> space to actually work on the stuff that they think matters and to deploy technology into areas of their work that they think should be automated. >> Yeah.
1:53:18
>> What's the launch tomorrow?
1:53:18
What's the exact product? Tell us. act. All right. So, five things.
1:53:22
I'm going to be plain vanilla here. Five things.
1:53:25
>> One is uh access to 50 models inside of our product.
1:53:29
Everything from nano bananas to seed dance.
1:53:31
You can now access that directly on air.
1:53:34
>> Two, you can access those models through a canvas editor.
1:53:36
So, you can grab your assets which are already on air.
1:53:38
You can create variants of ad units.
1:53:40
You can change out the text in something.
1:53:42
You can take an image and turn it into a gift for a quick video. Whatever you need.
1:53:47
Three is agents who can go out and make those edits for you should you want to you know communicate with a machine instead of doing it yourself.
1:53:58
>> Four is a context layer.
1:53:58
This is the sort of biggest differentiator for us.
1:54:02
We you know today organizations store and manage all of their assets inside of our product where their memory and so we're taking that memory and allowing your creative team to deploy that.
1:54:12
Um, deploying the context means that the agents can start saying no to edits or that when an agent makes an edit, it can do something that's actually on brand and uses your font or your styling or your photography style.
1:54:23
So, this context layer is where creatives can actually add instructions so that noncreatives can create and compound assets from what they already have.
1:54:32
And then the fifth one is what every organization, you know, like us is going through right now, which is we're transforming pricing, going fully to usage based pricing across our product.
1:54:40
Uh, so all of that hits tomorrow. >> What about search?
1:54:44
I feel like there's uh, you know, I've watched my iPhone camera roll push the search bar bigger and bigger.
1:54:51
They really want me to search. Uh, and it's okay.
1:54:53
But if I if I know that there's a I I screen recorded a video and it has Arnold Schwarzenegger in it, but he's not in the still frame, he's not in the thumbnail, he's deeper in there, and I search Arnold, it's probably not going to go inside the video.
1:55:10
understand the context and I feel like uh air has all this like tagging infrastructure.
1:55:15
There's an opportunity for just the best in-class search.
1:55:17
You see people complaining about Gmail search.
1:55:21
Same same thing is true for for Google Drive.
1:55:23
At one point I had every file name for every video in Google Drive was just like 75 keywords all the way out.
1:55:31
So I could actually search through videos.
1:55:34
>> Is AI accelerating you there?
1:55:36
>> It's a great it's a good question.
1:55:36
Um, you know, we my my co-founder Tyler and I have been building this business for eight years and we've been very thoughtful.
1:55:43
You know, our our approach is to try to build a system of record for creative work.
1:55:46
So, a Salesforce or GitHub specifically for visual data.
1:55:51
>> Um, you know, our AI journey began to your point with search natural language search and the enrichment of assets.
1:55:55
And from our perspective, the models got to a point over the last 2 years, products like BDA as an example from AWS where you can do a lot of really powerful things.
1:56:09
Facial recognition, scene detection for videos, custom object detection, and then you can power that through really elegant natural language search experience.
1:56:16
That functionality exists in the product today.
1:56:20
>> Um, and we've been leaning into that work for the last two years.
1:56:22
The shift for us into generative editing and variant creation really began in October as these models started to progress in the quality of the output >> and we realized that the quality of the output was going to be decided by the quality of the context around it. Sure.
1:56:40
>> Um so you know starting tomorrow on air we'll marry both of those things both the amazing worldclass search experience you can now have enabled by AI and the variant creation that can stem from it.
1:56:52
So that you know a year from now if you want to look up Martin Skrey Rage Bait you know on TPN you'll find >> you can you can go and find that.
1:57:01
>> I'm glad we had you in the audience.
1:57:03
Well thank you so much for taking the time to come chat with us.
1:57:05
Congratulations on the launch and absolutely beautiful.
1:57:08
Uh we'll talk to you soon launch. >> Goodbye.
1:57:12
>> Let me tell you about Turbo Puffer serverless vector and full tech search built from first principles and object storage.
1:57:16
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1:57:29
Without further ado, we have Doctrronic. >> How are you doing? >> Dr. Doctron.
1:57:36
>> Hey guys, how are you? >> We're doing great.
1:57:37
Please uh introduce yourself and the company a bit for us. >> Yeah.
1:57:41
So, Adam, uh I am one of the co-founders of Doctronic.
1:57:46
>> Uh doctrronic is an AI doctor.
1:57:46
Uh we call it that because it's easy for people to understand. >> Yeah.
1:57:51
>> Um we have an AI native care platform.
1:57:54
You can come to it, chat with it 247. It's always free. >> Yeah.
1:57:57
>> And then when you're ready, you can press a button and the AI conversation, the summary, and a doctor's note is sent off to one of our doctors and you can get care. >> Okay.
1:58:06
>> Care, primary care, anything you need.
1:58:08
>> So yeah, I mean WebMDs existed for a long time.
1:58:10
Chat GBT has a health functionality, but the the the key insight here is that you're actually linking to a network of licensed doctors throughout America.
1:58:20
Are there particular states that you're starting with?
1:58:22
How does it actually work to onboard these doctors? >> Yeah.
1:58:27
So, we're actually live in all 50 states, uh 50 plus one.
1:58:29
Um and we have a network of 50 doctors that are employed by Doctronic.
1:58:35
Uh, and that includes both primary care, urgent care, women's health, uh, mental health.
1:58:41
>> Uh, what does it look like if somebody already has their own doctor and they want to bring them to the platform?
1:58:45
I imagine that the same way someone might show like, oh, here's my eight sleep data doctor.
1:58:53
What do you think this says about the other symptom I'm having?
1:58:55
Uh, somebody might share, hey, I had this conversation with Chad GPT.
1:58:59
Uh, can we use this as a jumping off point?
1:59:01
What does it look like to bring your own doctor to the platform? >> Yeah.
1:59:06
So, our our AI system is always free and at the end of it, you get a doctor's note that you can take to your own doctor. >> Okay. Cool.
1:59:13
That's >> There are some people that do that. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's amazing.
1:59:15
Uh and then in terms of the uh the actual business model, who's paying?
1:59:20
How would how do you see that evolving?
1:59:22
Where do you think that goes? >> Right.
1:59:26
So, um right now we make money by providing care.
1:59:29
And so when you see one of our doctors, you can either pay out of out of pocket. It's $39.
1:59:32
Um or you can use your insurance. >> Okay.
1:59:37
>> Uh and we take almost every insurance out there, including Medicare. >> Yeah.
1:59:41
>> Um in addition, we're in the process of building out a number of different um partnerships with other businesses that will both license our technology and uh use our physicians as well. >> Yeah.
1:59:50
How do you think about the opportunity for prescription management?
1:59:54
It feels like there's been a boom in teleaalth.
1:59:56
A lot of work has been done, some controversial, but some very by the book where they're partnered with a with a pharmaceutical company and there's licensed doctors in all 50 states that can prescribe.
2:00:06
Is that in the path or is that uh tangential to your work?
2:00:12
>> Uh directly in the path.
2:00:12
So we launched a program in Utah, first of its kind, where we actually are able to renew prescriptions without a doctor.
2:00:19
Our AI makes a clinical decision. >> That's great.
2:00:23
>> Uh that was launched eight weeks ago.
2:00:23
I think was a big first step.
2:00:25
Uh and we're hoping to build upon that. >> That's awesome.
2:00:28
Jordy, >> uh what is Yeah.
2:00:30
So, so I'm trying to understand like are you guys kind of limited from a growth standpoint due to like like how how do you scale basically you have these 50 doctors that are employed by doctrronic?
2:00:44
Do you need to scale that or is the idea you can make them you know 100 times more? You know, how are you?
2:00:51
Our physicians are I would say in order of magnitude more efficient than a traditional tele health practice.
2:00:59
Um and so instead of a doctor being able to see four patients in an hour, they can all of a sudden see uh 15 or more.
2:01:07
Uh and that allows us to scale much faster than a traditional telealth platform.
2:01:11
>> And then you you uh you mentioned partnerships uh with other companies.
2:01:15
Would that be with like major LLM providers?
2:01:18
Is is that is that where this is going or >> our partnerships come in three different flavors.
2:01:22
The first one would be with payers, TPAs or large employers that want to utilize our services because we're going to be cheaper than most other telealth practices.
2:01:29
Uh there are large health systems that we're in discussions with that want to utilize our technology because we can make their doctors more efficient.
2:01:36
And then there's a whole slew of digital health companies, hardware companies out there that are also interested in leveraging our technology to extend what they can do uh on uh their service potentially providing care.
2:01:48
I was listening to uh Terrence Ta the mathematician on Doresh Patel and uh Doresh was asking him about the impact of AI on his job which is mathematical research and was trying to say like how much more efficient are you and and uh and Terrence Tao was saying well I use AI a lot but I don't it's not like it's helping me with the core work it's more like in a paper I would like to put a chart.
2:02:18
Normally that chart would take me 10 hours or five hours to put together.
2:02:23
So, normally I just wouldn't put it in.
2:02:25
Now I can just put it in.
2:02:27
And so he was like it I'm doing five times the work but it's not replacing work that I was doing before.
2:02:35
And it was this very like Jebans paradox type of answer and I'm wondering about the amount of medical advice that's being dispelled.
2:02:43
How much of it is displacing conversations with existing doctors versus just purely additive conversations where someone would have said, you know what, I do have that, you know, I do have some symptom, but I'm just going to go to work today and I'm not going to go take the time to schedule an appointment, meet with a doctor.
2:03:00
How much of of what you're doing is is seen as additive versus replacing labor?
2:03:06
>> I think it's almost all additive to be quite honest.
2:03:08
And when you think about medicine, it's always had this fundamental supply demand mismatch. Yeah.
2:03:12
Think about how many times you've wanted to go see a doctor and you just didn't do it because it was too hard, right?
2:03:16
I think there's probably 10 100 times more care that could occur if there's zero friction in the system.
2:03:21
And a lot of what we're seeing today is it's just so easy to utilize our system that you're going to come in and ask questions that you would never ask a doctor.
2:03:30
We have people who use our system 10 times a day.
2:03:32
They'll come in and say, "Hey, I have high cholesterol.
2:03:36
What should I eat for breakfast?"
2:03:36
You would never ask that of a doctor.
2:03:37
Um, but when there's no when there's no friction in the system, you can do that.
2:03:42
>> Okay, we got to we got to fire up Doctrronic and ask whether or not we should take BPC 157 because it's been hotly debated on this show today and I want I want a real doctor or an AI doctor to get to the bottom of it.
2:03:53
I think that they would probably >> refer that to our system.
2:03:57
I actually don't know what that is.
2:03:58
So, >> it's a very controversial peptide that some people claim works very well.
2:04:02
Other people's claim it's a placebo effect.
2:04:04
Uh but hopefully people are uh referring to real medical advice for this particular question.
2:04:11
Uh but you raised some money.
2:04:13
Tell us how much did you raise.
2:04:13
I want to hit the gong for you.
2:04:15
>> We have we raised 40 million for our series B. >> Congratulations.
2:04:21
>> Thank you so much for taking >> to come give us the update and have a hope I hope you have a fantastic rest of your day.
2:04:28
>> Yeah, great to meet you guys as well.
2:04:29
>> We'll talk to you soon. Goodbye.
2:04:29
Let me tell you about Finn.
2:04:31
ai, the number one AI agent for customer service.
2:04:33
If you want AI to handle your customer sport, go to finn. ai.
2:04:37
And we are in the Lambda Lightning round.
2:04:40
This concludes our Lambda Lightning round.
2:04:42
But let me tell you about Lambda.
2:04:43
Lambda is the super intelligence cloud building AI supercomputers for training inference that scale from one GPU to hundreds of thousands.
2:04:51
And without further ado, we have Robin Vince from the Bank of New York Melon.
2:04:55
Robin, how are you doing? >> What's going on?
2:04:58
>> What a wonderful backdrop.
2:05:03
I think we are struggling.
2:05:05
>> Really pretty really remarkable.
2:05:07
>> Oh, how are you doing?
2:05:07
Uh sorry we we we missed you on that intro because of the audio.
2:05:12
Uh can you introduce yourself and the company I suppose? >> Sure.
2:05:15
Well, it's great to be with you.
2:05:17
Congrats on uh and everything you've been achieving.
2:05:19
It's been fun to watch your progress.
2:05:21
Uh so BNY we are the world's uh real looking after the wiring and financial security of the financial system.
2:05:31
We also are America's oldest bank.
2:05:33
So we've been around for a while.
2:05:34
We've seen a few cycles over time.
2:05:34
There were just 20,000 people in New York. >> Yeah.
2:05:39
Who started the bank again?
2:05:41
>> Alexander Hamilton, the now famous dude. >> That's incredible. Incredible.
2:05:44
So uh obviously a lot of a lot has changed over the uh what 250 roughly year uh history of the of the firm.
2:05:53
What is your day-to-day like?
2:05:56
What is what what is on the top of your list of goals for 2026?
2:06:01
What are the challenges to running an institution as old as BNY?
2:06:06
>> Well, we've been really reimagining the company over the course of the past three years.
2:06:10
We've been a strong and safe part of the financial services system and the US financial system as you say for 250 years.
2:06:16
We were the first stock ever traded on the New York Stock Exchange. >> Fantastic. >> Exactly. That's right.
2:06:23
There's some there's value to longevity, but you to get old means that you learn how to adapt.
2:06:30
And this is a world full of change.
2:06:33
And so we've been laser focused on really bringing ourselves truly into the modern age.
2:06:38
AI very focused on AI and everything we're doing with our platform. We can get to that. Yeah.
2:06:42
But actually taking the company and making it be the performer that it can be.
2:06:45
We do all these great things, these different businesses that we have.
2:06:50
Living up to our potential has really been the motto of the past three years for us. >> Yeah.
2:06:54
as as you've witnessed AI progress over the last couple years, what do you think the biggest opportunities uh for uh for AI within uh I would say leg just legacy financial uh institutions overall.
2:07:09
institutions overall. uh you know we we had someone on earlier that was talking about you know a lot of uh some of this code still running on mainframe computers and and how much uh how much modernization that I'm sure you've been working on that's not even related to AI and then
2:07:26
how can AI kind of continue to serve that >> I think for us there are three vectors and to be fair I think they're probably the same for most firms these days and I think that's true for technology software firms I I think it's true in the financial services sector as well. One is just doing what we do but just
2:07:42
One is just doing what we do but just doing it in a better and more efficient way.
2:07:46
So that could be modernizing code. You write cobalt.
2:07:48
We have some main frames.
2:07:50
Mainframes are actually pretty good super high volume uh use cases but we don't want them to run on old code.
2:07:56
So having the opportunity to make that change and frankly just make it easier to be able to make the change.
2:08:00
We've been putting it off for a while now. We've got great tech.
2:08:02
It's cheaper and easier and quicker to be able to do it. Yeah.
2:08:06
>> Um but also reimagining processes end to end.
2:08:09
being able to essentially take multi-step things and collapse them down to be just more efficient, quicker.
2:08:15
So running the company better using AI is number one.
2:08:21
Second vector of change is actually the products and services just enriching what we do and actually what we offer to clients with AI so that they perform better provide additional insights can actually be executing quicker for clients and so we just become better as an institution in our actual delivery uh of our products and services and then the third one I think is actually expanding the perimeter of the firm.
2:08:44
We're not trying to turn ourselves into fundamentally a different company, but we are interested in taking inspiration from other things that have happened in the world like Amazon is a good example.
2:08:55
Amazon Web Services once upon a time it just served Amazon then they externalized it as a service and it essentially became their cloud service.
2:09:04
We've got lots of things that we do at super scale for ourselves that we could also do for our clients.
2:09:10
We are the number one custodian in the world.
2:09:14
We custody $60 trillion of assets. We have payment rails.
2:09:22
>> Yeah, it's it's it's fun to have scale.
2:09:25
>> You just said the biggest number ever of any company, >> any CEO on the show and that's hard day moves through BNY.
2:09:32
It's >> we touch 20% of all investable assets in the world. So that is mega scale.
2:09:37
You could sound it again if you want. I love it.
2:09:43
>> Throughut the data from that throughput allows us to be able to deploy AI into really making the company kind of different.
2:09:50
So this third one spanning the perimeter doing for other people things that we currently can only do for ourselves is kind of an interesting thing too.
2:09:58
Uh there was an interesting story in the Wall Street Journal today about Mark Zuckerberg looking to build a custom AI or you use AI to answer questions in his role as the CEO of Meta Platforms.
2:10:11
And I'm interested in how you as the CEO of BNY could either are currently using AI or or think in the future you might be using AI as a co-pilot for what you do, answering questions about the business.
2:10:24
What's on the top of your wish list if someone were to build an AI system that knew everything about your business and could help you do your job as CEO better?
2:10:36
>> Well, we have the beginning of that right now inside our company.
2:10:39
So, we have our own AI platform that we built.
2:10:44
We started the journey three years ago. It's called Eliza. >> Yeah.
2:10:48
>> Uh homage to Alexander Hamilton again.
2:10:52
and lies are connected to all of the LLMs but is a really a multi-agentic uh platform that are people build agents and we have live agents multi- aent solutions in production doing work today we also have digital employees that are essentially multi- aent solutions but
2:11:10
wrapped with a user ID a login a persona and name that actually make them addressable and deployable in the company to work alongside inside our human uh employees as teammates and Eliza's an app and I do exactly what you just asked basically multiple times a day. Okay. Okay.
2:11:32
>> So I the client earlier on, hey, I'm going to be seeing this client.
2:11:34
Could you please tell me what are the additional things that I should be talking to them about?
2:11:39
Give me the top three ideas that are meant to be my pitch to the client.
2:11:43
It goes through looks through every call report that we've interacted with the client.
2:11:47
what I did last time I met with them, >> what's happened in the news so far, what's pertinent and news to their business, and actually just advises me on how to be a better kind of extension to the client rep team when I'm meeting with them. So, I do that today. >> Yeah. Wow.
2:12:03
>> Uh I mean, can you explain to us a little bit about what you're standing in front of?
2:12:07
Is this some situation room uh to understand the global economy, your business particularly?
2:12:13
It looks amazing, but I'd love to know more.
2:12:16
So you can and you can just see a glimpse of it behind me, but yes, it's a it is exactly all of what you just said. It is a situation room.
2:12:23
It's our cyber technology command center. It is AI powered.
2:12:27
So AI is kind of the first line in actually looking at it, triaging it.
2:12:33
So we're watching $3 trillion of money every day.
2:12:35
We're watching 25 to30 trillion worth of US Treasury settlements every day.
2:12:40
We're watching our $3 trillion worth of wealth assets and we're basically helping our clients to be able to get insights into their business that's running through our technology because we're kind of a platforms company these days.
2:12:54
We're a bit of a non-traditional bank uh in terms of what we actually do.
2:12:58
So, this is a virtualization.
2:13:01
So it's all real data, real time that is actually and we have this in three places in the world that runs off private and public cloud that actually allows us to get the insight into what's happening in our business all the time real time.
2:13:17
>> I'm sure clients are asking you about disruption from artificial intelligence, geopolitical instability.
2:13:23
What else is at the top of the minds of your clients as we go into 2026?
2:13:28
It's a it's an uncertain time.
2:13:31
Where are people searching for certainty right now?
2:13:36
>> Well, you know, it's a it's an important question, John.
2:13:37
And so AI is for sure, right?
2:13:40
You're right about the geopolitics.
2:13:41
The world's complicated place.
2:13:43
Digital assets is another example. Sure.
2:13:45
Which positioned our investment in digital assets, tokenization, tokenized deposits, stable coins, tokenization of other uh security types and and frankly other financial assets or maybe welcoming new financial assets into the system.
2:13:59
That is something that our clients are super interested in because they want us to help them manage that transition from the old or traditional rails into the new ones and we can be a partner for them with that.
2:14:14
>> What is what do you think is next?
2:14:14
>> What is what do you think is next? I mean it there was a lot of there was a lot of talk years ago about tokenizing assets bringing you know assets that we know and trade every day onto you know digital rails cryptocurrency onchain uh that it feels like that happened with the dollar it feels like stable coins
2:14:34
are here they've arrived real estate has been slower stocks have been slower what do you think >> picked up in the >> is oil on chain now I was not familiar with that but >> people are trading oil on chain but it But I'm sure I'm sure you see some some you have some questions around how that's actually being done. But
2:14:50
But >> yeah, well look, remember with oil as well, it's a physical commodity at the end of the day.
2:14:55
The whole concept on chain of the mirror world uh is like if if ever there was an example of of just a reminder that it's a physical asset today.
2:15:05
>> But look, let me give you my gen one, gen two, gen 3 view of that.
2:15:07
And even before I do, let's just acknowledge where we are in Gen one.
2:15:12
So tokenization, yes, we're underway. We're beginning.
2:15:17
You mentioned stable coins.
2:15:19
They have market share this big right now.
2:15:21
And so it's early days and it's a little bit like AI.
2:15:23
You can see the promise of the tech.
2:15:25
You can see the opportunity, but at the end of the day, adoption, full integration into the system is very different than just having the tech.
2:15:33
And we talk all the time in our company about AI.
2:15:34
Great, great, exciting, but it's got to be deeper.
2:15:39
It's got to be everywhere.
2:15:39
It's got to be for everything, for everyone.
2:15:43
So I'd say digital assets similar situation even in gen one we're beginning it's early days lot of promise opportunity >> but just taking a an existing asset or even a physical asset that exists that isn't really part of the financial system putting it on be the beginning
2:16:01
then how do we actually make things work better and differently because for some existing assets they're not necessarily better just because we tokenize them you know we take a share of Microsoft and we declare victory because it's a token We haven't really changed much in the world. If you take a bond, the question
2:16:14
If you take a bond, the question is not only can you tokenize the security, but what can you do with the indenture?
2:16:21
How can you have the if and therefore statements that are all part of that piece of documentation and actually encode them in a chain in a way that actually is going to add additional value?
2:16:31
That's a different thing than just tokenizing the security itself.
2:16:33
And then Gen three, if you actually think about financial securities as ultimately being a cash flow and terms and conditions, then maybe you can just rerender financial assets in entirely different ways because of the fact that you now actually have the blockchain and you actually have capabilities that didn't exist today in the traditional rails.
2:16:56
Now today's L1s aren't really up to that task.
2:16:59
So there's innovation that's required at the L1 layer level as well as in the L2s and then for for participant firms.
2:17:07
But that's how I see the world. We're early.
2:17:09
This is a 5year 10-year journey. It'll happen.
2:17:11
I think it'll happen more slowly than AI.
2:17:14
But that's another example of an innovation right now.
2:17:18
Earlier in the show, we were talking to Mitchell Green from Lead Edge Capital about private credit, and there's been some reporting around just how big that non-bank lending industry is.
2:17:31
How should average investors who aren't maybe specifically in a private credit fund, but just, you know, your average American trying to make sure that their portfolio goes up every year, how should they think about private credit, the risk in the system, how they can protect themselves or potentially benefit?
2:17:48
Where is America when it comes to the private credit industry right now?
2:17:54
>> So, first of all, just a reminder that private credit is first of all, credit. >> Yeah.
2:17:59
And so we've got private credit, we've got public credit, and they're essentially two different markets, different investor types potentially go in, but at the end of the day, they're trying to solve for the same thing, which is leaning in to being able to lend money into the into the financial markets and capital system, give entrepreneurs and other business builders or business runners access to more capital.
2:18:22
And so there are some types of borrowers who are more suited to the private markets and some who are suited to the public markets and some who do both.
2:18:29
There's a lot of drama at the moment in private credit and there are some good reasons for it because there have been some exposures that are bit being a bit idiosyncratic to private credit and also there always liquidity issues when people see headlines and they say oh my gosh is my money safe and then people their money back and then you have the old elevator elevator door problem.
2:18:49
more people want to get out, but there's not necessarily enough space and there's a bit of a rush for the exit.
2:18:54
So that's exactly the problem that that we're seeing right now.
2:18:57
>> But the market, I would observe, is today still pretty strong because the credit market's strong and ultimately the economy drives the credit market.
2:19:05
Now, we have high energy prices for a long period of time or we have a real weakness in the economy, then we're going to have problems in the credit market and then we're going to have real problems in the private credit market and public credit market.
2:19:16
So I think today we're in this spot where there's a lot of focus.
2:19:21
It's a large but not huge market compared to the scale of the public credit market, but the underlying fundamentals are mostly pretty good, but there's a huge watch out with energy and as a result a huge watch out into the readout into the real economy.
2:19:36
And if we have high energy prices or other cracks and they persist, then it's a different story. >> Yeah.
2:19:43
with uh the the health of the underlying economy.
2:19:46
I feel like people track inflation, they track GDP, they track the stock market.
2:19:52
Uh if someone's trying to, you know, now today they're an oil expert.
2:19:56
Uh if someone's just trying to get an understanding of how the US economy is growing, what are the signals that you would recommend that they actually uh look through or try and understand?
2:20:11
Well, there's first of all, when you're really looking to the economy, you're looking at employment is super important.
2:20:17
People who have jobs feel more comfortable and people who feel more comfortable go about their lives and they spend and they employ back and they help the economy to grow.
2:20:25
So, it's really important to watch uh in employment and also to watch sentiment.
2:20:31
>> Then then consumer sales and spending and kind of credit card health and are people being overleveraged in how they're going about their spending.
2:20:39
Those things are important.
2:20:39
Those things are important. uh what is the what is the profitability ultimately of companies and are they growing uh are they are they investing are people capital deploying energy is a huge input high energy prices have a very negative impact on the United States we sit here
2:20:54
and we feel very good about the fact that we've got a lot of security and energy supply and so actually having the molecules that can flow because we have access to supply is a really big deal but we're an export market so at the end of the day the world prices sort of set the price domestically here as well. And
2:21:09
And if we have high energy prices, it ripples through into food.
2:21:13
It ripples through all into all of the different things that are energy dependent.
2:21:17
And these days, kind of everything is energy dependent. >> Yeah.
2:21:21
Well, I guess the good news is that oil's down 10% today.
2:21:23
I I feel odd uh saying that, but it was it was uh very nerve-wracking when uh oil seemed to be going up and up.
2:21:31
And as you mentioned, high energy prices can really put a drag on the economy.
2:21:34
So hopefully I think we're all uh hoping for stability in financial markets, stability in uh energy markets and all of the above.
2:21:42
But uh thank you so much for taking the time.
2:21:45
>> Yeah, really enjoyed your >> to break it down and come back on soon.
2:21:48
>> Yeah, we'd love to talk to you more.
2:21:50
>> Have a great rest of your day. >> Cheers, Robin.
2:21:52
>> We'll talk to you too soon, Robin.
2:21:52
Let me tell you about Graphite code review for the Age of AI.
2:21:56
Graphite helps teams on GitHub ship higher quality software faster.
2:22:01
Our next guest is live in person in the TV with us, the one and only David Center. How you doing? >> Miss you, man. >> Thanks. Watch. Good to see you.
2:22:09
Uh, tell us how are you how are you feeling? >> What is this? >> How are you feeling?
2:22:17
>> That's just the Yahoo button.
2:22:17
Does that reflect your your your inner feelings?
2:22:18
I want to hear I want to talk about your inner monologue.
2:22:21
I want you in I want you to introspect.
2:22:23
I want you to introspect. How are you feeling? You're doing well. >> Yeah. Like unbelievable.
2:22:28
>> And do you feel aligned?
2:22:28
Do you feel like you're you're you're reaching your goals in life?
2:22:32
Do you feel like you're doing what you're meant to be doing?
2:22:35
>> Oh, you don't answer that question.
2:22:35
What kind of question is this?
2:22:37
>> I'm just messing with you. Introspection questions.
2:22:39
Um, yeah, it it was the background to what you're >> Sure. Sure.
2:22:43
So, so, uh, David Senra, host of David Senra and host of, uh, founders, >> uh, went viral last week after an interview with, uh, Mark Andrees, uh, where you were both in discussion in agreement around this idea of >> maybe you don't need to, you don't need to be constantly introspecting.
2:23:05
You need to have some forward motion in your life.
2:23:08
You need to be ruminating.
2:23:11
>> It wasn't like advice.
2:23:11
It wasn't advice for other people. >> Oh, yeah. >> At all.
2:23:15
Like, so it was an observation. Yeah.
2:23:17
Like >> I wanted to talk to Mark for a long time. Yeah.
2:23:20
And um I actually had dinner with him last year in Miami and it took him a while to warm up, but then once he gets going, the same person you see on the podcast is like the same person in person, right?
2:23:29
>> And I've like consumed everything.
2:23:29
I I told him before I was like, I think you and Palmer Lucky are probably like the two best podcast guests on the planet. >> He's great. >> Right. Yeah.
2:23:37
>> And you know cuz he doesn't have any notes in front of him.
2:23:38
I spent eight hours need to knee with Palmer and I couldn't. He was inexhaustible.
2:23:41
I've never come across a mind like that before. >> Yeah.
2:23:44
>> And Mark's the same way.
2:23:44
It's like you can ask him anything and he'll just he has this crazy recall.
2:23:48
>> And the difference between like me and most people that talk to Mark is like I've read all the same books that Mark has done.
2:23:54
I read his blog archive like eight years ago. >> Yeah.
2:23:58
>> And which was excellent before long before he was like tweeting >> an episode about I think it's episode 50 of Founders. >> That's great.
2:24:04
>> I think this is in 2018. >> Episode 50. Wow. >> Yeah. Exactly.
2:24:06
I should redo it because there's a lot of really good advice for like founders in there.
2:24:09
Um, and so like I was just excited to to talk to him.
2:24:14
>> It was the by far I think we've done like 13 or 14 of these that we've released so far.
2:24:16
We've now recording like mad so we have a ton uh banked.
2:24:18
But >> it's like one of the people I was most excited to talk about just because like we have the same passions and he had he was the only person that I've come across in today that came to the same conclusion that like I would read all these biographies and these people that went on to build great companies, invent new technology, everything else.
2:24:35
They talk about this all the time.
2:24:37
They actively avoid introspection.
2:24:38
And so the reason I brought up I was not trying to be provocative.
2:24:42
I'm not in like I have a 10-year history of not being provocative.
2:24:45
But >> so I mean I understand the push back which is that there's so many examples of of history's greatest entrepreneurs introspecting.
2:24:52
Uh I think that maybe the the the nuance here is when does the introspection happen?
2:25:00
I always go back to that Disney chart.
2:25:02
you know, the Disney napkin map of how Disneyland fits into Disney films, fits into the radio business, fits into the merchandise business.
2:25:12
It all is crystal clear right now.
2:25:15
And a lot of founders, a lot of content creators, a lot of people like us will look at that and be like, I need seven things that all piece together.
2:25:23
But Disney drew that map and then died like two years later.
2:25:27
It was a reflection on his life.
2:25:28
He was introspecting about what made his business successful, but he did it after he had done all the things.
2:25:36
>> I think people are confusing thinking with introspection.
2:25:37
So, I was actually thinking about you.
2:25:39
We're like the the again I went back and listened to the first like 10 minutes of that episode.
2:25:44
There's nothing remotely like controversial about this.
2:25:46
And I guess one part you're like, "Yeah, there should be more nuance." Yeah. >> The internet.
2:25:50
No one needs the context.
2:25:52
They're not going to watch for 10 minutes.
2:25:53
They're just going to see the caption and then disagree with the caption.
2:25:56
So what I would say is like this is the difference between pre and post life's work.
2:25:59
And so like you're a perfect example. Yeah.
2:26:02
This is like we've talked about this a few times on the show is like there was a huge prehistory with me and you pre-TPVN. Yeah.
2:26:09
>> And where you're the at Founders Fund.
2:26:12
Um you're making these incredible docu I can't cuss, right?
2:26:14
You guys got on me last time about that stuff. >> You can. It's up to you.
2:26:19
>> Depends on how you want to go.
2:26:20
>> If our kids start swearing we're going to be mad at you. >> Yeah.
2:26:23
I'm I'm going to take the stand that no none of history's greatest entrepreneurs have ever sworn.
2:26:28
>> Yeah, you'll go far with that.
2:26:28
Um, so what I would say is like the prehistory here is like you were uh ei. >> I found you.
2:26:42
I started talking to you.
2:26:42
I was like, you're gifted at this.
2:26:44
Like you're a generational media talent.
2:26:45
I because I was like the first thing I saw of you was your history of Silicon Valley documentary which I've read at least 40 books on the same topic and I'm learning stuff I didn't even know.
2:26:52
So I was like oh this guy's like this is incredible >> and if you remember at the time you were trying to figure out what's that >> go and you were trying to figure out it sounds like a sheep.
2:27:04
>> Um you were trying to figure out okay do I start another company? Do I become a VC?
2:27:12
>> So you were trying to figure out do I start another company? Do I become a VC? God forbid. Yes. Um, do I?
2:27:15
And I was like trying to push you to podcast. >> Yeah. Yeah.
2:27:19
Tell me it was a good business.
2:27:21
>> And then you went through multiple different variations. >> God damn it, Jordy. Stop. Um, this is your show.
2:27:26
And I'm >> So you went through multiple different variations, right, >> of different forms of podcast.
2:27:31
You even tried something like this with like a co-host a few different times. I saw all of them.
2:27:37
>> Lulu and Jason Carmen.
2:27:37
And then I also had a solo show that was sort of a copy of yours, but about live people instead of dead people.
2:27:43
And we were I remember cuz we were walking in Miami.
2:27:44
We were walking to dinner.
2:27:46
We actually ran into Keith Ra boy on the way there randomly and we had this dinner and you're like this show just doesn't feel right.
2:27:52
You didn't like the the the power law. >> Yeah, it's true. >> Yeah. Yeah.
2:27:58
The power law was not like it it wasn't getting me out of bed cuz I would make a I would make an episode and then somebody would be like I'm alive and I'm I'm going to debate you about this like you got this wrong and I was like oh okay I don't want to do like this.
2:28:09
>> Rockefeller is not coming from the grave yelling at me. >> Exactly. Yeah. You can say whatever.
2:28:12
You can say, you know, Steve Jobs never introspected and then he's not going to hit you up and be like, I did.
2:28:19
>> Again, we're not saying like never.
2:28:19
But even like Elon commented on this, like I sent it to our group chat.
2:28:23
We should pull up the tweet that he even commented on. >> Yeah.
2:28:26
He said, reinforcing negative neural pathways via therapy or introspection is a recipe for misery.
2:28:32
Don't cut a rut in the road.
2:28:32
But isn't this just like don't ruminate?
2:28:39
>> Some people were saying, "Oh, you guys are using the term wrong." Whatever this is. Let me finish.
2:28:42
>> But it was like negative introspection.
2:28:44
>> Let me finish the We have friends that all they do is introspect.
2:28:46
One of them has still not done his first deal. We will not name him.
2:28:50
Like he thinks too much and not enough action. That is the point. It's just like Yeah.
2:28:53
People that built This is not controversial.
2:28:55
People that built great turned out to do a lot of action.
2:28:58
Like they take a lot of action as opposed to like just sitting there thinking about how they >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
2:29:03
>> And even even the isn't it Blackstone whose first deal like Steve's first deal was like a total flop >> if I remember correctly. >> I don't know. I remember that.
2:29:10
But let let me go back to John.
2:29:12
>> It's like I wasn't I wasn't sitting there thinking about like what's the perfect media product.
2:29:15
I was trying things being very forward motion being aggressive about these different things.
2:29:21
>> The important part is you were trying to figure out a business that fits for you.
2:29:24
And then this is why when I immediately saw you guys, you were in like the wrinkled t-shirts.
2:29:27
You were filming at the Jonathan Club. I was like, "This is it. You found it."
2:29:32
>> The reason I bring that up for you is because I think it's a great illustration of the point.
2:29:34
It's like I talk to you guys every day.
2:29:35
You don't wake up thinking about like how do I feel today or like what should I do?
2:29:38
You guys just are unbelievably dedicated to because you found your life's work. Yeah.
2:29:43
>> And I know this cuz like how many people try to buy the show?
2:29:45
How many people have tried to invest in the show?
2:29:46
How many people try to get you to do other things and you're like, "No, like we just want to do this and we just want to do this forever."
2:29:52
>> And the example I use on the episode was Sam Walton. Yeah.
2:29:55
>> Like Sam Walton was figuring retail out.
2:29:57
He had one store for the first 5 years of his life. Yeah. >> Right.
2:30:00
But then you fast forward 25 years into his life, he wasn't waking up like, "What should I do today?"
2:30:03
He's like, "No, I like Walmart. I like building Walmart.
2:30:05
I'm going to make more Walmarts and just keep doing this until I die." >> Yeah.
2:30:09
That's the point we were making.
2:30:10
And then I love that Mark just refused to back down.
2:30:12
Oh, he just like it was like 10x down.
2:30:15
>> Oh, day after day after day after day of just not fighting this back.
2:30:17
And then >> you did very well.
2:30:19
>> And then what I would say about this is like >> perfect.
2:30:23
>> We hit on this like weird like political divide where like a lot of like my liberal friends were texting me and saying like this is wrong, this is evil.
2:30:29
And I'm just like >> oh interesting.
2:30:31
>> I think you know I'm not a wrong like evil person.
2:30:32
And then you know more of my conservative friends like yeah no Mhm.
2:30:37
>> And that again that was unintentional.
2:30:39
So a lot of the the hate comments came from like the socialist side of Twitter which okay them people.
2:30:42
Like I hate socialists like good by the socialist.
2:30:46
Good >> more >> more more inspiration to grind harder.
2:30:51
Um tell us more about the show.
2:30:51
What's coming down the pipe?
2:30:55
How are you thinking about it?
2:30:56
How much are you on the road these days? >> A lot of people.
2:30:59
So Jordy has seen the new studio which you got to come out and see. It's crazy. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> It's crazy.
2:31:04
Yeah, >> it's it's probably actually the craziest podcast studio ever in history. >> Wow.
2:31:10
>> Just just like the actual dirt that it's on. >> Okay. >> Yeah. >> Love it.
2:31:13
>> Um we just had Evan Spiegel out there.
2:31:15
Thank you for making that connection.
2:31:16
But he started watching the show and he's like can I be on the show and then he had known cuz he's like I love these guys.
2:31:21
>> Um so >> the answer is just like I'm not I mean we will travel if we have to.
2:31:24
I'm trying to push as many people as possible to Malibu.
2:31:28
We're having a lot of success with that.
2:31:29
And you know you we're all really friends with my good friends with my co-founder Rob Moore and like every time like the Andre one we did I probably did that like three weeks before he came out and I was like again I don't do any drugs but I was like high as a kite and I was just like shaking Rob.
2:31:42
I was like just put a founder in front of me every single day like that's the biggest thing.
2:31:44
So yeah I definitely feel like I'm not waking up thinking what should I do today?
2:31:47
It's like I'm completely >> What's the What's the pipeline of uh people that that are that are coming on the new show that have never done a podcast. >> Okay.
2:31:55
So >> one of Okay, so we all know >> cuz that's the real alphas.
2:31:59
Like there's there's a thousand there's there's not not I'm saying like all of it, but I'm just saying like there's a thousand people out there >> that are that would break the internet if they did a show and they just for one reason or another.
2:32:12
>> Who who's your Sarah Payne?
2:32:14
>> Okay, so there's there's two things here.
2:32:16
One, I there's a lot of other podcasters, a few have tweeted this publicly and I I don't really respond to anybody on Twitter, but I've said, "Hey, you know, I I think of this differently."
2:32:25
They're like, "I don't like doing people that have the podcast circuit." >> Sure.
2:32:28
>> And when you say that, you're just admitting that you you have no differentiation.
2:32:31
You have no unique perspective.
2:32:32
So, like I really wanted to do Mark because >> you would never interview someone here if they were if they had done a different podcast. >> Yeah. Exactly.
2:32:38
But I wanted to interview >> What?
2:32:40
This is your sixth show today? Let's ring the gong.
2:32:42
I wanted to have conversation with Mark because of all the things that I knew about him that I had never heard anybody else talk about course conversation.
2:32:50
So if you listen to episode >> and and and the virality is evidence that you had a new conversation.
2:32:54
You got to a different place.
2:32:57
>> Well, not only that, but like that was the the stuff that was controversial, but there's stuff in there like, okay, the fact that when Mark was 20 years old, he was mentored by like the Elon of his day.
2:33:05
Jim Clark was the first person to ever in history to ever found three separate billion dollar technology companies.
2:33:10
And he didn't start his first company till he was 38 years old.
2:33:14
at 38 he started his first company and then and check this out and then there was this book from like 2001 that was published that I read by Michael >> and before he was 38 was he just like introspecting or >> no no no no he was an academic >> the moment he stopped >> he he was he was an academic but
2:33:30
>> straight to the top >> he describes himself in the book he just said as a self-described loser because he was smart he had papers written and he was teaching but he had no money and then I think his second or third divorce the guy's like >> literally he literally just who who is this again? >> Jim Clark. >> Jim Clark.
2:33:44
>> Jim Clark Silicon Graphics, Netscape, the company that turns into WebMD.
2:33:49
>> And Mark Andre was really young when he co-ounded Netflix, but he had Jim Clark or sorry, Netscape.
2:33:53
Uh but but he had Jim Clark as like this older mentor mentor.
2:33:59
It's a wild thing because normally if you walk into Andre's office and you say like, "I'm 20 and I have a 40-year-old co-founder."
2:34:05
People would be like, "This is odd."
2:34:07
Like normally we fund like two Stanford grads.
2:34:10
>> So I read an entire book on this. >> Very interesting.
2:34:11
It t he talks about it in his blog archive and I did two other episodes on the same book like two or three years apart. Yeah.
2:34:17
>> I don't know how no one ever brought that up to Mark, but it was so fascinating.
2:34:20
And he tells three different stories on the podcast spread by like 30 minutes in between each story about how formative this was that the reason he is the way he is is because he was mentored by Jim Clark at 20.
2:34:28
How is that not interesting? >> Yeah.
2:34:31
>> So there's a I want to have my own spin on people that >> Yeah.
2:34:35
>> you know or do other podcasts.
2:34:35
There is another one coming out.
2:34:37
We're actually flying to New York to do this one because it's going to be one of the craziest locations that you could possibly film in.
2:34:42
This was suggested by somebody I can't name on the show.
2:34:44
He's a good friend of us three. Sure.
2:34:47
>> He's probably the smartest person that we all know. Sure.
2:34:49
>> And he's like, "Hey, we were at dinner in Miami and he's like, >> he who shall not be named." >> Exactly.
2:34:54
And so basically he's like, "What are you talking about this guy?"
2:34:56
I can't tell you who it is yet, but this guy's product, if you are wealthy in the world, you will know and probably have, you know, frequented this guy's product.
2:35:07
And it's outside of tech.
2:35:07
And it's outside of tech. nothing to do with technology and so he's never what' you say >> chrome hearts >> no but he's never done a podcast he doesn't even have any this guy doesn't even have any social media >> he designed wraps that go on huracans
2:35:22
>> the chat is saying you're bringing vague posting to podcast >> you are you're vague post >> who you're vague posting on a pod which is which is innovative >> let's be let's be less vague what do you think about the AI podcast That's at the top of the charts right now. Uh it is Uh it is programated.
2:35:40
It's it's putting us all out of a job.
2:35:43
>> Is this is this the Epstein one? >> Yes. Yes. >> Yeah.
2:35:45
But I think they're transitioning to >> they're going to do more.
2:35:47
They're going to do a bunch of stuff.
2:35:48
Everything that you want like if they if it's a hot topic, they're going to have a podcast that's, you know, single narrator like very fact-based, deep researched. >> Yeah.
2:35:58
And the reason that it's interesting is like it's not >> it's not an AI app.
2:36:01
Yeah, >> it is like somebody used AI to make the media product and then just uploaded it to traditional channels.
2:36:09
>> Yeah, Kareem from RAM showed me this like a month ago.
2:36:13
>> Um, yeah, obviously there's going to be great AI generated podcasts like >> of course now they I think they got to top of the charts not because they have a large listenership if I'm not mistaken, but the frequency in which you produce >> and so that's a way to actually like manipulate that. Sure. Sure.
2:36:26
where you see this with this this some other media companies doing this where they like essentially record for three hours and they just break up >> uh every all the episodes are like 15 minutes long and they upload like you know 15 a day or whatever and they're like look we're on the top of the charts but if you actually look at overall listenership it's like really low.
2:36:42
>> Yeah we would >> but yeah like there's there's there's obviously like >> three a day >> I mean I spent I got I got to spend uh >> I think I can talk about this pretty sure I got to spend some time with Demis from from Deep Mind and just like you know that is the most AI aging person I've ever come across in my life.
2:36:56
So he thinks it's coming for everything.
2:36:59
>> Um, so yeah, obviously there's going to be great AI generated podcasts.
2:37:02
>> I think the people making AI podcast would stop if they knew they were competing against you.
2:37:11
>> I found this hilar I was looking back >> like the Chuck Norris of podcasting.
2:37:16
>> You guys are hilarious because I I went through our um look at this >> here.
2:37:22
You guys texted me this when I did the new show and you didn't like the profile picture that I that I originally picked. >> Yeah, you smile. You were smiling. I was like read it. >> Yeah.
2:37:30
I said, uh, you you you created a new account for the new show.
2:37:33
And I just immediately texted it to you and I said, I think no smile on profile picture. John says, "Agree."
2:37:38
And I says I said, "You look good.
2:37:41
It just doesn't seem on brand.
2:37:42
You're more serious than 99% of people."
2:37:45
And then John said, "Unless it's a deliberate ploy to make enemies underestimate how seriously you take podcasting."
2:37:51
And I said, "You look like you should look like you're going to kill someone." >> Yeah.
2:37:57
>> Um so anything like I I think like being the best in the world like trying to >> like dominate whatever niche you like you guys are dominating your niche right now. Uh I'm amazed.
2:38:04
I hear listen to every single interview you guys do and like just your your relentless focus of like this is what we do.
2:38:10
you don't even want to travel, which I heard like you changed something, you know, plans recently.
2:38:16
>> Um, yeah, I think like the key for us and anybody is just like whatever your core competency is, it's like focus in on that.
2:38:22
Try to get as far down that line as possible and then just say no to everything else.
2:38:25
And again, is that even new?
2:38:26
Like >> yeah, it's interesting on the AI topic like the the like the speed with which AI can produce an audio deep dive on a hot topic like the Epstein files which drops.
2:38:37
It has thousands of thousands of pages of documents like a human team's not going to be able to read through that and people want to consume that media through audio.
2:38:44
That makes a lot of sense.
2:38:46
At the same time, it does feel like interviews, you know, with particular people that everyone knows is not AI like Mark Andre and then they can react to that and feel something emotionally because it's a real person with a real impact on the world.
2:38:59
That feels very very sticky.
2:39:02
So debate de we just had this conversation.
2:39:05
So, some of the stuff like how we're using AI for the new show, like I'm not going to talk about publicly.
2:39:10
I obviously tell you guys because we share information, but it's just like I'm not giving an edge to competitors.
2:39:15
It's not going to happen.
2:39:17
>> Uh, what I would say is >> Oh, you have a course. >> No, never do that. >> Never.
2:39:20
Um, so what I would say is like we had I had dinner like a month ago and this is exactly it was with Kareem and the guy that we can't mention >> and they're just like, "You're moving way too slow."
2:39:30
These are close friends so like they're not like being mean to me.
2:39:32
You're moving way too slow.
2:39:34
you're not using AI enough.
2:39:34
Like Founders is more like susceptible to being overtaken by AI than the new one and you should drastically ramp up production on the new one. Yeah.
2:39:46
>> Um and they made the exact same point that you did.
2:39:48
>> But I do think again like >> everything the the world is like run on power laws and I think podcasting is the same way and it's just like yeah you guys are making media and you're you're delivering news and commentary but your audience has a relationship with you.
2:40:01
Like I see when they come up to you like how they act.
2:40:02
They act like you're Jordy and John are my best friends.
2:40:04
Like that's what I I've been saying this.
2:40:06
You can go I've been going on podcast for half a decade.
2:40:08
Like I'm not making media.
2:40:09
I'm creating relationships at scale.
2:40:11
>> And that's why your your shows are not just like you ask one. Yeah.
2:40:13
Like it would be very different to like use AI and walk into an interview with Mark Andre just with like 10 questions and be like Mark how did you start your career?
2:40:23
didn't have Mark can put up an insane podcast just with that format where the guests could say like a total of a thousand words and he just like goes off >> but yours are more like you know all of your I think a lot of your episodes will end up being like >> 50/50.
2:40:40
>> I'm trying to like I didn't have anything I think they're better if I don't have anything in front of me like I I prepared for the last decade like I can just sit down and talk to you. I we do have one.
2:40:48
So I met Tony from Door Dash here.
2:40:50
Remember he came on your show. Yeah.
2:40:52
>> And we had this crazy conversation.
2:40:52
You were writing the newsletter, but me, you, Patrick, and uh Tony had this crazy conversation for like 45 minutes.
2:40:58
And in 15 minutes in, I was like, >> "Hold up, dude.
2:41:00
You got to do more podcasts cuz he's so impressive."
2:41:03
>> That one I think is coming out >> uh next weekend.
2:41:06
That one I had maybe too much in front of me just because like the way I think about Tony is just he's like again like not financial advice, but he just gives me out of any anybody I've ever spoken to, I think he's 41, just gives me like Jeff like young Jeff Bezos vibes.
2:41:20
Like I have no idea the quality of Door Dash.
2:41:22
I don't look into the stock, anything like that.
2:41:24
All I know is if you think that guy's going to stopping a food. >> Yeah.
2:41:27
The other thing that's notable there is all three of the original co-founders are still working in the business and it's what are they 15 years in or something. >> Crazy.
2:41:37
>> Maybe maybe a little bit less, but but that it's so so rare to have that much success.
2:41:42
>> All the all the founders, you know, somebody steps back normally.
2:41:45
Somebody's got to start a venture fun.
2:41:48
Think about how humble he is though, right?
2:41:51
And you know, I even said this on the episode.
2:41:55
It's like, you're not going to like what I'm about to say, Tony, but I'm going to say it anyways.
2:41:57
This is like >> your competitors are afraid of you.
2:42:00
>> Like I've I I had a dinner in Stockholm with the guy that sold his company for like $8 billion to um to Tony. Uh his name's Mickey.
2:42:07
The companyy's called Vault or something like that.
2:42:09
It was like the Door Dash European.
2:42:11
>> And it was he told this crazy story I told on the episode with Tony.
2:42:13
He still reports directly to Tony St.
2:42:14
And we were like he he's like, "I thought of myself as an entrepreneur my entire life.
2:42:18
I thought there's no way in hell it ever work for anybody else.
2:42:20
We had we had a term sheet right in front of me.
2:42:22
We could raise a fresh billion dollars of capital to fight them.
2:42:25
And I'm looking at it, thinking about this, and something involuntarily came out of my mouth that I never thought I would have made.
2:42:33
And he's looking at it, he goes, >> I can't beat him. >> Whoa. You can't beat him.
2:42:39
>> He's like, I can't beat him.
2:42:39
So, I either could like sell for life-changing money and then learn from him, or I could fight this ego and maybe light this billion dollars on on fire.
2:42:46
and he did the difficult decision like I'm going to go and sell.
2:42:50
>> You're still going to get stock in the new company and be able to grow that. >> Yeah.
2:42:53
But I would say that out of um all the conversations I've had so far, the one that they're all like I've all enjoyed them, but what I would say is like Toby Luke was if if no one if the people listening to this have not listened to any of the new show yet. >> Yeah.
2:43:10
>> I would if if you want to go in tech, go Toby Lu.
2:43:12
If you want to find this these crazy people that are not in tech, go Todd Graves. >> Todd Graves.
2:43:16
But Toby Luke was very fascinating to me because he's your favorite founder's favorite founder.
2:43:20
So everybody that you admire, you ask who they admire and they'll bring up Toby.
2:43:25
And what they like about him is that he thinks through every single thing independently.
2:43:28
So therefore, he has all these beliefs that are not correlated with one another, which means when you have a conversation with him, you are unable to predict what his response to your question or your statement is going to be.
2:43:39
>> And that we talked for four hours.
2:43:39
So we talked for a half hour before we recorded.
2:43:43
Then we recorded for three hours.
2:43:44
We edited down to whatever it was.
2:43:45
Then we recorded for another 30 or talked for another 30 minutes after and I could have kept talking.
2:43:49
I was like, "Dude, I gotta catch a flight.
2:43:50
I'm gonna have dinner with Charlie Rose that night."
2:43:53
Like I had to like fly down there.
2:43:54
I was like, we would have kept talking.
2:43:56
>> Like he just blew my mind.
2:43:56
And one thing he said I think would be interesting to your audience is he believes and I think he said this on the episode that we're going to look back on the year 2026 as the year that every single business in the world was up for grabs.
2:44:09
>> That AI is coming for everything.
2:44:09
Every single other business will have to be reimagined.
2:44:13
and you're going to look back at this is the year where it was it should have been obvious to you that you can rebuild the AI native version of whatever exists out there. >> Interesting.
2:44:23
>> Uh Meta has scaled back their metaverse plans, kind of refocused the company.
2:44:29
A lot of people over the last couple weeks have been kind of dunking on Zuck for that.
2:44:39
anything stand out in history where great entrepreneurs, CEOs made like massive massive bets and they didn't pan out.
2:44:48
Uh I would say as a Meta shareholder I think it's great that Zach is willing to like bet heavy heavy heavy on uh you know trends that he really believes in.
2:45:01
And also, it's great if you kind of run it down and then uh realize you're hitting a dead end or need to re refocus, but what's your view on on, you know, swinging for the absolute fences and missing sometimes?
2:45:15
>> I mean, it's obviously inevitable.
2:45:15
Jeff Bezos has this great line in shareholder letters where he's like, "The size of your failure has to scale with the size of your company."
2:45:21
So, he's like, "I can't make a $300 million mistake anymore.
2:45:23
I need making I think the Firephone was like a $3 billion."
2:45:25
I was like, "Yeah, that's good." Like, okay.
2:45:28
So, cuz I want to I'm going to somewhere like I have to like it's just inevitable.
2:45:32
What I will say is I I I've spent some time with Zuck.
2:45:35
>> Uh I don't I don't think he has a peer. >> Like I told him this.
2:45:38
It's like who else is his age?
2:45:41
>> And he's still somewhat of a puzzle and mystery to me.
2:45:42
And that's why I'm like interested in like to continue to talk to him because it's just like I've read every single book on Facebook. They're all bad.
2:45:48
There's no good books on Facebook.
2:45:50
Facebook. uh there some of his you know most of his interviews like they just there's just certain things I want to talk to him about that because I'm just naturally curious about I think this is the whole point where you know people like you guys are having this immoral conversation about introspection it's just like >> it's funny because yeah you actually want him to introspect you want the
2:46:08
interview that you would do with Zuck would be very reflective it would not be tell me how you're thinking about MSL's product roadmap >> no I don't even think it would be introspective it would be like Just I want to know how like the the reason I I I signal signalled out the Toby Luk episode because when I sat down with Toby and I did this for Brian Armstrong too who was awesome. It's just like I
2:46:26
It's just like I want to make like a how Toby Luke works episode. >> Yes.
2:46:31
>> Like and this is what I just want to know.
2:46:33
I'm not there's no gotcha here.
2:46:35
It's just like how do you think about building businesses?
2:46:36
How do you think about retaining talent?
2:46:36
Why did you do this product?
2:46:38
Like just tell me the stuff that's you have 25 years as in his case 20 I think 20 years experience as an entrepreneur.
2:46:44
Like that's one very rare especially one in a single company like you've learned all kinds of crazy stuff like just like let's get some of this on record and like let's talk about this. So same thing with Zuck.
2:46:55
Um I'd just be very interested.
2:46:56
What I like about him is like he has this just like inner clock where you know he's he he's going to make these massive bets and you know obviously he knows he's obviously not stupid like some of them are going to fail of course. >> Yeah.
2:47:12
>> What do you think about retired interviews?
2:47:14
people that are out of the game.
2:47:16
The risk with a live player, someone who's actively running a public company, is that the SEC is listening to what they're saying, that they want to stay on talking points, that they have a bunch of different incentives.
2:47:27
Well, if they say, "Oh, well, you know, the easiest thing I ever did was cut back my marketing spend because none of that stuff was working."
2:47:37
Well, then their head of marketing is going to be upset.
2:47:40
There's internal politics.
2:47:40
Whereas when you do an interview with somebody who's retired and no longer in the game, sometimes they can speak a little bit more freely about their industry, their life's work, their career, etc. >> Yeah.
2:47:53
I I would if if I could have a show of just 80-year-old billionaires for like that would talk like I got to spend time with Sam before he died.
2:48:00
The fact that I was able ever able to record a podcast with him like now that I have this new vehicle, it's like man because he's just like doesn't care. he's dying of cancer.
2:48:10
Like >> he's going to say whatever.
2:48:12
So my friend Sam Hanky, I just saw him like two weeks ago and he actually gave me advice.
2:48:15
He's like, "You should organize your guest list in reverse chronological order >> because like there's one guy we're working on right now who's, you know, one of the most successful people.
2:48:22
Uh we already had to reschedule with him. He's 87."
2:48:26
>> 87 >> and he is like unfiltered. >> What about you? >> Incredible.
2:48:30
>> What about um the the tension between uh a name brand live player like like a Toby look?
2:48:37
somebody who's done other podcasts, people are, you know, know Shopify, maybe they've built a business on Shopify, like it is not fully a consumer brand, um, but it will draw a certain level of attention versus 80-year-old billionaire who's been, you know, owns half the farmland in Montana, might have had a fantastically rich life, but one behind the scenes.
2:48:59
Is there still an interview to be done there? >> Yeah.
2:49:03
Like, how do you guys choose the people you want to talk to?
2:49:05
people you want to talk to? like >> well a lot of it's news driven so a lot of it's about you know what's happening right now in the world who can we talk to to contextualize that and so I enjoy those reflective moments when they come up but they aren't as much of a driving
2:49:22
force at all >> so I I like try to um so I was went on a walk yesterday or maybe yesterday I don't know where it was yesterday uh yeah it was yesterday morning and a really good friend really smart person just like you have one of your gifts is like uh distilling everything down to
2:49:38
like what is actually essential >> and so and he's like you help me talk through all the these issues I'm having with my business this way >> um but you do it for yourself where it's like this I'm just going after things I'm intensely interested in especially in the age of AI if you're not following what you're obsessed with like I don't I
2:49:53
think you're doing it wrong so founders is just the books that I'm intensely interested in reading and the new show is just people I'm intensely interested in speaking to some of the stuff the the people we have recorded they'll like maybe know this like small niche thing. I'm not going after like just big
2:50:06
I'm not going after like just big names.
2:50:08
That's not interesting to me.
2:50:10
It's like the the rubric is very or the the like the decision making here is very simple.
2:50:14
It's just like am I intensely interested to sit down and talk to this person?
2:50:17
Like um Evan Spiegel, I I I showed him too this is like I did an episode of Founders on him.
2:50:23
I think it's episode like 25 or 24.
2:50:24
It's like a long time ago.
2:50:28
And what I what the there was like one thing that happened with Evan because I talk about Edwin Land all the time.
2:50:34
Founder of Polaroid, Steve Jobs hero.
2:50:36
Steve Jobs copied a lot of Edwin how Edwin Land build Polaroid and use those ideas in in building Apple.
2:50:41
>> Steve Jobs of mentoring technologist. >> Yeah.
2:50:43
And like he's the patron saint of founders.
2:50:44
And so I read this book about Evan and Evan is 21 years old and he's talking about that he's got two heroes and it happens to be Steve Jobs which makes sense.
2:50:52
Every 21-year-old kid trying to be an entrepreneur at the time had Steve Jobs and then Edwin L.
2:50:54
I was like, "How the hell does a 21-year-old even know >> we got another land?" >> Yeah.
2:50:58
We had we had an incredible conversation about that.
2:51:01
>> No, it's a different land. >> Yeah.
2:51:04
And so like that, you see what I mean?
2:51:05
Like I just like we have the same interest.
2:51:07
This is a guy that is has influenced my thinking.
2:51:08
He influenced your thinking.
2:51:10
And of course you wind up with a camera company.
2:51:13
>> Like it makes perfect sense to me. >> Oh, that makes sense. >> And I I don't care.
2:51:15
Everybody's like, "Oh, market cap.
2:51:16
I don't care about that."
2:51:18
>> iPhone is also >> But but people are like, "What about what about like if the stock price is down or the market cap?"
2:51:22
So I don't give a I want him to win.
2:51:23
He he's like a very interesting person to me. >> Yeah, totally. Totally. >> Okay.
2:51:28
Uh Saturday I watched Elon's kind of new pitch for Tesla, XAI, and SpaceX. >> Mhm.
2:51:39
>> And one of the products that he was kind of presenting was a mass driver.
2:51:42
Did you follow this at all? >> Do you think I did? >> I know. I know you didn't. >> We have Hold on. We have two episodes. But we were having Yeah. Yeah.
2:51:50
We were we were having we were having a debate uh on the show at the beginning around the timeline for the product and we were pretty John where did we actually land?
2:52:00
You were saying under 20 years.
2:52:03
>> I said I said under 20 Tyler said under 30 and you said 75 or something.
2:52:08
>> And so >> or you you said 10 but then also 75 >> but also five years.
2:52:11
Also >> no I I have literally I have I have no idea.
2:52:18
I'm not going to pretend that that I I think I have like an accurate read on it.
2:52:21
Uh but has there any any entrepreneurs throughout history that were kind of pitching their business overall on on timelines where the market was like I don't know if this is like like going back to like inventing flight people telling the Wright brothers like you're never going to be able to fly. That's impossible.
2:52:42
>> People were saying that. >> Yeah. No, I know. I know. I know.
2:52:43
But they did it on like a they weren't being like like like this chain of events will lead to the 747 50 years from now. >> Yeah, exactly.
2:52:52
So get ready for the 747.
2:52:55
So invest in my bicycle plane >> because the 747's coming.
2:52:58
Like it was coming in 50 years, right?
2:53:03
>> So I would say about Elon in particular, I did this episode of Founders which I'm really proud of.
2:53:07
It's probably the most downloaded episode ever.
2:53:08
It's called How Elon Works.
2:53:11
>> And it strips away all the biographical details and just talks about him speaking about the way he runs his companies.
2:53:16
And in that episode, I said like usually there's some kind of like historical equivalent for everybody operating today.
2:53:22
>> And you know, you could name a person.
2:53:22
I could find somebody in history that you know, but for him, I do think he is like a singular character.
2:53:27
I can't think of anybody living or dead that is like him. >> Yeah.
2:53:31
Um there's >> it's weird because he's an industrialist, but he's also incredibly promotional and like very good at the marketing side as well as the building side.
2:53:38
>> The best in the world at that might be the best salesperson.
2:53:42
>> That was why that was why the week the weekend presentation was tough because I didn't think the all the technology was cool and I have zero doubt that Elon can do hard things that no other >> set of companies can do.
2:53:54
And you see it today because a decade ago people were like Roadster is coming next year.
2:54:01
Everyone's talking about Roadster and no one's really talking about Mass Driver.
2:54:04
It didn't break through in the same way.
2:54:05
>> So probably because it's the name like >> M driver they got to get a new name.
2:54:10
Yeah, they should call it >> I didn't see it so I don't know what that means but that's fine. Hold on.
2:54:13
There is to answer your question, there is tons of examples from history of somebody having an idea saying that they're going to dedicate to that life their life to making that idea come to fruition and taking multiple decades to to to actually do that.
2:54:26
So like the the thing that comes to mind just because I'm rereading about him now and I'm probably going to do another episode on him.
2:54:32
I've done like six episodes on Henry Ford >> and Henry Ford had one idea.
2:54:34
He will tell you I had one idea in my entire life and that was to figure out a way to make the car for an everyman.
2:54:39
Meaning at the time when you made less than a dollar a day, cars are like $6,000.
2:54:43
You can't afford the people making them cannot afford them.
2:54:46
How can we learn to massproduce that?
2:54:48
And it took him, you know, 20 years of how of pounding on that idea till he actually accomplished that goal.
2:54:54
So he probably thought it was going to be done three or five or 10 >> and it took 20.
2:54:58
Um but yeah, you're going to find a ton of examples like that. It always takes longer.
2:55:02
>> And that's why the Raptor R exists.
2:55:05
>> It's the car for the ever van.
2:55:05
Henry Ford would >> well the the thing that that that example doesn't quite satisfy this this example because this pitch is like >> these eight things need to happen perfectly synced together in order for this other thing to be possible. >> Yeah.
2:55:26
>> But again >> so >> betting against Elon has not worked. >> Midcurve alert. Midcurve alert.
2:55:31
There is there's a book by our mutual friend Eric Jorgensson that's coming out tomorrow. >> Midcurve. >> Midcurve.
2:55:40
>> Uh we Yeah, I think we I mean we can show the cover, can't we?
2:55:43
>> Yeah, you can read the whole thing right now live.
2:55:45
You guys want to read another seven hours?
2:55:48
>> Let's do a table reading.
2:55:49
>> Um >> this is the book Elon with a forward by Naval Ravocant by none other than Eric Jorgensson.
2:55:54
And the visuals are by Jack Butcher. That's great.
2:55:56
So, in the book, Elon talks about the fact that he gets a lot of on the fact he that his timelines are usually, you know, off. >> Yeah.
2:56:06
>> Um, and he explains why and everything else.
2:56:08
But I think what Eric, we're actually doing something Eric uh was actually the first American >> uh to ever put me on a podcast. >> Really?
2:56:16
>> And so like the first podcast I ever did of somebody else's podcast was this one that only went in like China. >> Yeah.
2:56:21
And so it was like really popular on WeChat, but but no one but Eric uh he just like gave me a shot when no one really knew who I was. That's awesome.
2:56:28
>> And it wind up being important because one of the listeners of that episode, there's only like a thousand people listened to it was Patrick >> and Pat Russell who was running Colossus.
2:56:36
And there's a there's a a there's a comment in the Colossus Slack, the Colossus Podcast Network Slack, which Patricky is the founder of, >> uh talking about the episode.
2:56:44
This is before I was signed to them.
2:56:45
And he they said, uh, "This guy sounds like he's going to bite the microphone.
2:56:51
And so they're like, "Oh, he's actually like >> might be good at this."
2:56:53
Um, but I think what Eric is the reason what I'm doing is I'm dropping an episode of Founders on this book tomorrow, which is a normal solo episode.
2:57:00
Then I did something different for the new show, which I think could be another um another like not just having conversations with great founders, >> but conversations with uh charismatic authors who are writing about great founders.
2:57:12
Eric, which is a friend, he's also very articulate and charismatic.
2:57:16
And so we essentially, that episode's coming on the the David Center feed tomorrow. Yeah.
2:57:20
>> Say because he's a friend, he's articulate. >> No. No. No.
2:57:22
Because I spent a lot of time talking to him.
2:57:24
We're like, you guys have interviewed authors. Yeah.
2:57:26
You know, some of them like >> authors are are are almost universally fun to talk to in the moment that they're launching their book because they've spent more time than anyone else on Earth just thinking about that one.
2:57:39
>> So, we when you see the shot tomorrow, it's like we have like, you know, I don't know a thousand pages of Elon documents in front of us.
2:57:45
A lot of it is just me going through asking my notes and highlights with Eric and then you essentially can prompt him and then he can tell you crazy Elon stories. >> Yeah.
2:57:53
>> Do you think that >> this a lot of the CEOs that you're talking to, the ones that are kind of in their prime, let's say, you know, 5 to 10 years or 20 years into their company, do you think they are more AGI pill than they let on on the internet?
2:58:08
because a lot of them will like talk about how they're using AI and talk about how they're excited about it, but I feel like you've given me some examples where behind the scenes they're actually like much stronger believers.
2:58:23
>> I mean, you guys had I think Lulu I think has been on here talking about that AI has like a a communication like a branding problem.
2:58:29
It's like very unpopular with the general population. Yep.
2:58:33
um actually talking I I spent over an hour with Kareem yesterday talking about about this topic um and about ways to actually get good information.
2:58:39
What I would say is like yeah like most of the stuff they're talking about they're not going to talk about on a podcast.
2:58:45
They're not going to talk about you'll see this in group chats.
2:58:46
Some of the ones that like you and I are in but even that like yeah most of them is like whispers and like private conversations and completely off the record stuff. >> Mhm.
2:58:55
>> Do you think you'll ever write a book?
2:58:57
>> Do you think I'll ever write a book?
2:58:59
>> I >> the things that we three share No man.
2:59:01
The thing that we three No, the thing that we >> That's a narrative violation.
2:59:06
>> What we share is like, do you want to do anything else than than the show?
2:59:11
>> Why haven't you raised the fund yet?
2:59:11
Why aren't you starting a new company?
2:59:13
Why aren't you on a plane right now traveling?
2:59:17
>> I I I'm just thinking like I don't know like like the book of David Senra with Eric Jorgensson. >> He's writing it. >> Could make sense.
2:59:23
But basically already he is. >> Yeah.
2:59:27
Hey, he tried to work on it with me and he's just like you you're you don't answer my phone and if I talk to you cuz I can't get a hold of you and I talk to you have your idea changes all the time.
2:59:35
I was like I can't be the bottleneck of anything.
2:59:36
This is why I have to run my own >> Yeah, that's fair.
2:59:38
I I'm just thinking about in terms of like uh just >> are you trying to like sabotage me?
2:59:43
You're trying to like get on podcasting.
2:59:46
>> I've just seen I've just seen more and more like Dorcash wrote that book with with Stripe Press that was heavily based upon the interviews that he did.
2:59:51
Uh it had a bunch of interesting graphics.
2:59:54
It was clearly a collaborative project and I feel like there's an aura effect to to writing that can work very well.
3:00:01
I mean, we had uh um we've had a number of people on that that have been able to stick the landing and uh >> no, I think again like just focus is more important than ever in in this age and focus on things that you just you think about all the time and that you're like obsessed with.
3:00:16
And >> like the reason I could do a new episode every day is because I'm I never get tired of talking about how people build their business or think about their products or like I find that infinitely fascinating because you could do it.
3:00:27
This is what I loved about Toby. >> Yeah.
3:00:29
>> And it's just like he's like the reason he think he said this on the episode.
3:00:33
The reason he thinks through every single thing because he's like there's not one right way to do it.
3:00:36
There's probably a hundred and I'm looking for the right way for me.
3:00:40
>> And so like talk about AGI Build.
3:00:40
He said something that was shocking on that episode where, you know, cuz he's like, I started Shopify in my in I was he had no money.
3:00:48
He was living in his like mother-in-law's house at a small desk in a bedroom there.
3:00:54
>> It was inside of a cave, right? >> No, I don't think so. >> With scraps. >> With scraps.
3:00:58
No, he built the company with scraps.
3:01:00
>> And uh and then what was interesting about that, he right right before all the the new innovation in AI happened, he said that he was like act he he thought like I'm not the right person to run this company anymore.
3:01:08
I shouldn't be CEO anymore.
3:01:11
And then he's like, "If it wasn't for a uh for for AI, I wouldn't be running the company anymore."
3:01:16
>> So many stories about of like that where someone had a really good business growing and it's just stable growth, 20% topline, they're doing fine, but they are just lost for purpose or energy.
3:01:26
And then AI happens and they're like, "I'm back in gear."
3:01:30
I love seeing it, especially with the folks who are at that like multi-billion dollar phase.
3:01:36
It's just been uh it's been a remarkable remarkable moment in tech. >> Yeah.
3:01:41
I wouldn't you you want those people to be playing as long as possible.
3:01:44
He's still relatively young.
3:01:45
He's probably what his 40s 45 or something like that.
3:01:47
Like that's way too early.
3:01:48
>> But it's so easy to step back and think about something else, get distracted or do a fund or something or just retire.
3:01:55
Like there's a lot of people out >> and also he went public really early.
3:01:57
I think he said on the episode they they went public like $ 1.
3:02:00
5 billion valuation or it was like some crazy number like >> IPO for >> it's high for Canada.
3:02:05
There's a lot of stuff on the TSX that's like tiny. >> Yeah.
3:02:08
But I think at one point he was at 200 billion.
3:02:10
I don't know what he's at now. Um Yeah.
3:02:11
And so it had to feel like he was sprinting, you know, for for 20 years. >> Totally. >> But fantastic.
3:02:18
>> No, you want I'm glad those people are like that.
3:02:20
And I do think that you know the point somebody was making this point to me yesterday where it's just like these technical founders just have you know a massive advantage over everybody else and you see this with like Toby constantly writing more code Brian Armstrong is doing the same thing.
3:02:32
You just see this over and over again.
3:02:34
>> There's a lot of folks >> there was a peptide you could take that would allow you to podcast for 25 hours a day. Would you take it? >> Well, okay. What? Here's the thing.
3:02:40
I keep hearing about peptides.
3:02:43
I think I accidentally took one one time. What What happened? >> Yeah. Justin.
3:02:48
Justin, I think had some >> Oh, no.
3:02:50
That was Yeah, Justin gave Justin had like I don't even know if we could talk about this. >> He gave me and you. That's right. It was like Justin May.
3:03:00
>> It was some sleep it was some sleep peptide, but it was like something you get on Amazon. >> Okay.
3:03:04
>> But I thought his friend he said his friend made it in like his own compound pharmacy.
3:03:07
We might get Justin arrested for this.
3:03:09
Uh but he we us hang out and then you text or maybe we hung out the next day and you text him.
3:03:14
He's like, "I didn't feel anything about this."
3:03:16
No, I um one of the benefits of partnering with Andrew Human is you get access to like weird health >> And so um >> I was like over like I remember recording with like John Mackey.
3:03:26
It was the day I recorded with John Mackey. Felt fine.
3:03:28
We we stopped at like 1:00 p. m. By like 5:00 p. m.
3:03:30
I feel like I'm going to die and I had a an unbelievably important thing to do. >> Mhm.
3:03:35
>> Like 36 hours later I could not mess mess around.
3:03:37
And so I just text the the group and they sent like this IV guy >> and it was like a fourhour IV >> and I was like listen and I don't know anything about I I was like telling Rob I was like I trust you so like you don't give me like I don't want to this has to be good. Would you take this?
3:03:51
And it's something they do to make sure that like they're when they're on the edge of getting sick.
3:03:56
>> Well the next the next meta or goat >> one of them there was some kind of peptide in there.
3:04:00
One of them >> the by the next morning I woke up feeling 100%.
3:04:04
Like I went from deadly sick to I feel like a completely normal person.
3:04:10
>> Well, the next meta is leeches.
3:04:10
You're going to be purifying.
3:04:12
No, >> you can get medical leeches.
3:04:15
This this every podcaster >> Stop. Stop. >> Oh, yeah. You don't like snakes. >> What What happened?
3:04:20
Because I walked in and all the guys were talking about you guys had some kind of debate.
3:04:25
>> Yeah, we had a debate. Martin Scrowley. >> What happened? >> From Superpower. >> Uh, yeah.
3:04:30
whether or not like the the the the more out there peptides that are not fully FDA approved yet. Maybe there's some data. Should those be sold?
3:04:37
Uh what's the correct path to bring the next generation peptides to market?
3:04:42
Martin Screy's position was that uh the FDA has the path laid down.
3:04:46
These companies should be these products should be developed by biotech companies, approved by the FDA, then sold in the pharmaceutical context, prescribed by a doctor.
3:04:54
And Max uh from Superpower had a more liberal view.
3:04:57
He sell does one of the guys sell peptides?
3:05:00
the guys sell peptides? Uh, I don't know if Superpower does, but a lot of a lot of Silicon Valley companies are getting into that market and a lot of people in San Francisco and Silicon Valley broadly are like taking Chinese peptides, quote
3:05:13
unquote, meaning that they're like going to a gray market marketplace that then manufactures these drugs that are not FDA approved and not made in FDA approved facilities and certainly are not to the economic benefit of the pharmaceutical companies that spent a a lot of money developing these drugs. So,
3:05:31
So, there's some company out there that's been working on something.
3:05:34
They developed the intellectual property.
3:05:36
They're hoping to recoup 100% of that because they have a patent on it and so that they should be able to sell it and get all the value.
3:05:42
And there are a whole bunch of third parties that are going around copying the homework.
3:05:46
Uh maybe changing it a little bit, maybe making it worse, maybe making it less effective, maybe making it less safe.
3:05:52
Uh and and then selling it.
3:05:55
And so there there's a big debate in Silicon Valley right now about like the pepper.
3:05:58
Are you taking any of this stuff? >> Nope.
3:06:02
>> You like protect your body like a temple. >> Yeah.
3:06:05
>> I'm surprised you took what Justin gave you. >> I trust Justin.
3:06:07
Justin and I have a very similar ethos around health. >> Yeah.
3:06:11
>> Anyway, this has been a fantastic conversation.
3:06:14
>> I'm excited to continue this podcast as soon as we go off that podcast never stops.
3:06:18
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3:06:20
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Anyway, >> a patriotic thing to do.
3:06:54
>> We will see you tomorrow.
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Massive stream tomorrow 11:00 a. m.
3:06:58
reaction to this Flashbang.