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invest in people that are going to do this idea no matter what. How do you innovate?
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It's a pretty like torturous pursuit.
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What were you trying to do with it?
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Why did you do it in the first place?
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It wasn't like a positive vibe, you know, like people weren't like finally, you know, the opposite.
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People were not stoked about it at all.
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How do you feel about models training on your content? I don't care. Yeah, I figured. Yeah. Yeah.
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Because it's like a cat out of the bag.
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We don't care about our our music either.
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You know, there's there's just so much like, you know, I ask cuz there's so much controversy around music and art.
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And that guy Trip Adler, do you know him from scri scrib scribed?
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Pretty successful company and he's starting something new and he's like, you know, one of those founders where you're like, normally you'd be like, this is a really successful second time founder starting something in AI now.
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And I spoke to him and he was like, "Yeah, it's basically like, you know, licensing copyright rights that, you know, we find a way to protect and then get people paid."
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And I was just like, "This feels it's like I'm going to stand in front of a tsunami and I'm going to hold it off." Yeah.
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I was like, the everything here is like hinged on the government protecting IP.
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And by the way, it's already too late.
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I'd compare like this phase in like AI models training off of like copyrighted data is like the Napster moment where everything you know the record labels couldn't figure out a way to like sell music in the digital age.
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If they had been forward thinking and accepted it they would have created Spotify and we wouldn't be paying an extra 30% to a DSP.
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Um but they didn't and it had this whole moment where it's like you can't really stop this from happening.
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So just kind of embrace it and figure out how to like harness it when it comes out the other side.
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other side. like one person will get sued like like who knows these morals are going to train on this and they're are going to be able to do these things that everyone's feared about you know them doing but then we're going to be able to make better art or different art or you know something is there anything
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you do fear loaded question that I want to answer correctly my first instinct to say no because I feel specifically us you know we're we're DJs like 15 years ago the DJ producer and then still to this day you You've seen the memes about, you know, they're just pressing play or all of their music is software. And, you know, I remember the whole
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And, you know, I remember the whole first wave of that democratization of like, you know, uh, music software being available and like accessible and the barrier's entry coming down and like all of us being able to make stuff that we weren't able to create before unless we had like access to a crazy studio.
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And I remember everyone saying like that wasn't real music.
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Um, and here we are like 15 years later where like, you know, us and all our friends have like had massive songs that have been culturally impactful that play huge shows that tons of people come and have a good time to and you know, listen to music that make them feel euphoria or sadness or something amazing.
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It's like the still the still same impact of music has happened because not with a different set of tools.
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So, I'm excited to see what happens next and I'm excited to use those tools or for my kids to use those tools and to see, you know, how that enables people's that might not been able to express themselves with this medium.
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I mean, I would argue this the same now.
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It will be worse in the future, but just lots of slop like it's just a larger volume of stuff that gets made every day.
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And I think like to Drew's point the 15 years ago probably when like DAWs like Ableton and Fruity Loops and all these things came into you know existence now like on Spotify when we like started there was like 10,000 songs uploaded every Friday.
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Now there's like 190,000 or something like that. That's not that long. Yeah. Yeah.
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And I imagine that like in a few years it'll be a million. You know what I mean?
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Um, and that will definitely have like an impact about how hard it is to break through or maybe the importance of having a brand or an identity or standing for something um will mean something even more.
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I just watched this like Brian Eno interview uh with um Zayn Low uh and he was just talking about AI and like is it scary to him and this and he was like no cuz it's still like the taste at the end of the day.
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It's still just a tool you know um for now at least.
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Is it maybe the opposite that actually these tools make people like you that are willing to go the distance and want it the most and are maybe the most talented even more advantaged versus everybody else? Who knows?
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I can't answer that question yet.
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And hopefully not to be honest.
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Like I think what we're all gonna have to and not just you know us who are established we have our way of making music and then I think what it does is actually kind of the opposite is like it just allows more people to be able to make music and perform music and create an experience that other people connect to.
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Like I think music is just you know is my personal favorite form of self-expression.
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with these tools, I'd assume that more people are going to be able to experience being able to express themselves that way and that's awesome and uh and perform it and you know you can kind of look at the DJ DJ as like a microcosm blip on the radar of like a version of like more accessibility.
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Um what what kind of that gets you but you look at how big the scene is and how fun the scene is now.
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It's like how is that a bad thing?
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How does it feel the most different now creating a marginal new song versus when you started?
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like what what is the most felt creative process difference?
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I I would say that's that's less technological.
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It's more uh my own brain that I'm still trying to like reckon with.
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Songwriting is you're always trying to scratch this.
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It's not the same itch, but there is an itch that's like you're trying to satiate.
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It's deep inside of you that makes you feel something that you haven't felt in other places.
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Or maybe you feel that way cuz it's you making it that time.
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But, you know, as a massive music fan, I'm trying to like make something that like respects all of the things that have inspired me my entire life that still makes me feel like, wow, this is my statement now.
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Um, and you know, you'd think that we'd have a formula now on how to like write a dance song at least or write a pop song, forget about trying to write like the truest song for you at that moment.
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But like it's still can come from anywhere and it's so difficult and I think I I would be surprised if any artist told you that they weren't like rewriting their process every single time they go to do an album or a new batch of songs.
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Say a little bit more about the the nature of those feelings that you're trying to get yourself to feel by making something.
6:34
I think that's quite a cool Well, if I could say it, I wouldn't need to make music, you know, but it's like, you know, it's us tinking tinkering around and and you know, it's really cool having someone that we've that you've made music for with your entire life because what Chain Smoker's music is is what we both agree on is like fun and tasteful and we want to play out and but it's not just me or just Alex.
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It's like a reflection of our friendship and what we've like gotten super stoked on.
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uh listening to as music fans over the past, you know, 20 years.
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Is there a song that you remember making together where the creative process behind the song stands out the most in your memory as like emblematic of what it's like to make something together?
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I mean, every song I feel like kind of is its own.
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You told me about No Shade of Pity one time and the process behind that.
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I thought it was so cool.
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That's like a day like today. Yeah.
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I mean, I probably was like almost like a year to this date actually.
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Um, but you know, like that was like an interesting song, especially obviously for me, I'd just gone through like a breakup or something and we were like pulling a lot of inspiration from that.
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Uh, just generally speaking, you know, like you kind of go into the studio and you're like, what interesting concepts or things that are happening in our lives can we like talk about or expand on or just talk about?
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And then like a lyric or something happens.
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And you know, we were like thinking about New York City, which is obviously where we started.
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And just like on a day like this where it's like 75, sunny out, and everyone's just like winter's over, you know what I mean?
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And it's time to like be feral and enjoy the city.
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60°, but everyone's got their shirts off and the park pal.
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One of the best days of the year. Yeah.
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and like all those like bars, fun restaurants with like the sidewalk space are just like overflowing into the streets and it's like it's like hard to find something that isn't fun or amazing.
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Um, and so it was kind of like using that as a metaphor for like coming out of a relationship.
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Um, but then it's like there's so many decisions and things you have to talk about from like I mean, you know, how long do we want the verses to be? Is it too wordy?
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Is the like, you know, do we want to go is it too dancy? Is it not dancing?
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You know, like that feeling of it.
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I wouldn't say that song was like a runaway success for us by any means, but like I do feel like people keep coming back to it.
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We have I feel like we have a lot of songs like that where like I'll get messages throughout the entire year, like once a week, someone will be like, "Dude, this song's really good."
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And you're like, "Did you just listen to this?
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I put this You're my friend.
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I put this out like 9 months ago."
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I think that's what's cool about music is everyone has these moments with with songs and I have it still with like older songs from like the 60s or 70s or 80s to like new songs that come out last week where you're like wo this dude's preaching, you know what I mean?
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Or it just resonates deeply um in some way that it maybe didn't before just because of whatever mood or thing you're going through.
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So I think like with songs like that it's funny cuz he's like we're talking about my breakup but then we don't want to just make it about my breakup.
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We want to make something that's like an experience that everyone can kind of relate to.
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And then he's figuring out what clever ways to like fit the story into, you know, like a visceral scene that like relates to both of us, which is like a New York spring day.
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Um, and I'm trying to, you know, keep feeding the song with personal sad anecdotes.
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And it's a funny process. Yeah.
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And then, you know, and it's like and just kind of goes back and forth in this in this way with like Emily, I think Emily wrote that song with us, too.
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Um, and so she's, you know, obviously an amazing songwriter.
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Uh, and it's it's fun, you know what I mean?
10:06
And then suddenly you're like, there it is.
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And it's like I feel like you make a song like that, you're so excited about it to play it and to like be like, is this it?
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Is this gonna resonate, you know, with everybody?
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But like at the end of the day, like I think whether or not like it met the standard of success for us as on like a metric level, it like hit the mark as far as like a Chain Smoker song on like every level, you know?
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So I think if you're a fan of our That's one of my favorite songs of yours. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you.
10:35
Yeah. Thank you. Um, then like I think that's and I think that's a big part of what we've been like reexploring in the last year is like dialing it back to the Chain Smoker fans and Chain Smoker sound because I think like similar to going
10:47
back to the AI stuff like there's so much [ __ ] tool so many tools out there right now so many you know so much software so many ideas so many genres so much stuff happening every day that like you almost have to like constrain yourself a little bit to like have success. I forgot who was talking about
11:01
I forgot who was talking about this, but it's like the guitar is like been the exact same instrument for like hundreds of years, you know?
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Uh, and yet like people are still finding new ways to play play it and create sounds and experience, you know, feelings from it.
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And I feel like, you know, we go into our studio sometimes and it's like, wow, we have, you know, 25 keyboards now.
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And you're like, it's it almost like hurts the experience versus helps it sometimes.
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If there's no barriers to entry behind, you know, or less and less every day for music creation, you know, what are we left with?
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And we're left with like, you know, the same way.
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with like, you know, the same way. It's like, you know, I could play a guitar the same way and sing a song that, you know, some other guy can, but it might just hit different when that other guy does it or that girl does it or just because based on their background or the
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way that they're holding it or the way that they're the way that they're just voice and flex with that that those core like there's so much different that comes down to like brand and like I hate to say brand when you're talking about art, but like what is this thing that people like are tuning into you to believe in? And someone brought up the
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And someone brought up the point the other day that like no artist knows what song they should play at their show.
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I don't know if you've ever heard that.
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I thought that was a really interesting point.
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And to Alex's, you know, kind of talking about the success or lack thereof of a song like No Shaded Pity.
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How do you define success in a in a age of abundance um of art?
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And it's like especially as like how do you define success with us where we've have a bunch of songs over a billion streams.
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Um you know we've had chart topping songs but then you know what is the one thing that we do that no one else can do.
12:41
Can that even be replicated by AI?
12:43
Can that be replicated be by another person?
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Because when that person does it it will be them doing it and it'll be at a different time and they'll look different and it will feel different.
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And so when you think about AI, like you can't be scared of it because it's just going to be it's just going to hit different for better or for worse at some point.
13:00
And you know, we just got to focus on being the most chain smokers as possible.
13:04
Is art in a really bad place right now generally across the board.
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Like we have, you know, very few original movies being made.
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It's like Avengers 25 slop everywhere.
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Like every everything's like optimized for various algorithms. Exactly.
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But it's like what does that mean for for art in general?
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Um when it's like anyone can do it and it's accessible like are we in a golden age of creation or is it different?
13:28
And it's like you know we work with artists all the time and it plays a song and it's like oh this is like a interpolation of a song and you're like I I like I have no problem with that stuff.
13:38
I think it can be really interesting but you're also like it's already a hit.
13:41
So I think when you have an artist like a Fred again or someone come along, you're like I think it has even bigger impact than maybe in the past because like that originality is so refreshing. I find him unbelievable.
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My son and I are huge fans.
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We've watched like all his various sets.
13:59
As fellow musicians in a similar category, what is it like?
14:02
What how how would you describe what he's done effectively to somebody else?
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Because it it feels like the right example of this originality that we kind of all want more of.
14:12
Fred's a great example of the same.
14:14
I mean, there's a lot of the standout artists of the past three or four years.
14:19
I mean, if you look at Adochi or Charlie XX, like most notably, probably Fred, they've all brought you into their world.
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Like, it's bigger than just music.
14:29
What's so cool about music right now and those three artists in particular is they have songs that go like viral, but like it's not traditional pop hits like when like we came up, you know, 10 years ago. It's so much cooler now.
14:48
It's so nuanced and just ne it's more niche than it was at a time.
14:56
And like you can we're seeing this in dance music especially where it's like the stars of the the new stars of dance right now that are doing like blowing out Madison Square Gardens or doing the basically festivalsized crowds for their own shows.
15:10
If you looked at them on their Spotify monthly listeners like we were talking about earlier like oh this is an emerging artist like this is an opening act you know.
15:18
Um, but like that's what's so cool and I think kind of wraps up the whole point about if everyone can be creative, it's more it's like what else can you give them?
15:27
You need to bring people into something more than just music, you know?
15:30
And I think that's something we struggle with a lot where it's like we're hyperfocused on music and like we create this thing.
15:37
We're like I crushed it this time like this is this is going to be it.
15:40
this is this is going to be it. like the world building of the whole thing is something that you know doesn't come naturally to to every artist which I think will be just be more and more important and as a fan I want world building you know I want to I want to
15:54
participate on I I want I think album is God I think like I want to sit in your world for 45 to an hour and 15 minutes you know I want to put on the costume when I'm listening to something I read this amazing post this morning about the need to build heavy heat things, not light things. Like light things being
16:11
Like light things being ephemeral, like make it fast, consume it fast, forget it fast.
16:15
And something like the album approach or something that takes a long time, that takes a lot of time, heart, effort, blood, sweat, tears is what we need more of. Such a good point.
16:26
I think even like the commonality between like a Fred and a Dochi and a chart, like these are people that have been grinding.
16:30
I know like Doi's video after she won the Grammys went viral because she was like fired from her job, you know what I mean?
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and was like, I'm just going to double down on music, like, you know, or it was some crazy thing.
16:41
Charlie X has been writing songs for hit artists for like 15 years, you know what I mean?
16:46
Just in the background waiting, you know, I mean, almost like fine-tuning everything, waiting for this moment.
16:51
And Fred similarly is is literally a musical savant, but has been writing for Ed Sheeran and huge songwriters in the background.
16:58
I mean, his story is equally as impressive.
16:59
And then you have that compared to like the Tik Tok artists during COVID that like made a viral 15 seconds of a song and then like label sign them and then they're like what did we just buy? You know what I mean?
17:11
They're like I don't know what this is. Oh my god. Totally.
17:14
And it's not to say like though those artists can't break out and do great things like Addison Ray I think is doing a really great job of building a really amazing career um right now.
17:20
But that from what I've I I don't know Addison and haven't worked with her, but but everything I hear about, you know, our songwriter friends that are in the studio that she's she gets the world building piece of this. Yeah, you can tell.
17:34
What does world building mean?
17:35
Just like define what that means.
17:35
Uh just defining an aesthetic and a mood and an attitude that you can participate in when you listen to the music.
17:42
That's how I would see it.
17:44
Some people do this super thought out like they there's they'll probably have like boards and plans and and branding and you know insane creative direction.
17:54
I think some people are just are themselves and their music is they just kind of build it inherently.
18:01
Like Travis Scott is rage. You know what I mean?
18:05
Like but I would say like Zack Bryan like as far as like lack of branding goes.
18:09
But like Zack Bryan is Zack Bryan.
18:12
Like when you go see a show, when you hear it and the amount of songs he puts out, the type of videos that he films, I'm just like this is just a down to earth earth guy singing I guess they call rust belt country.
18:23
Um just brilliant songwriting and no frrills, you know, you're just getting good ass music.
18:28
Um and I feel like Fred again might be the DJ version of that, you know, where it's like this guy's just making really cool, innovative music and doesn't care how it's packed.
18:38
He's so happy all the time. How is he this happy?
18:42
There's a moment in the boiler room set that he did where where a fan like knocks the cable out and it stops the whole thing and his reaction to it.
18:49
He like instantly smiles and is happy about it and then somehow uses it to like weaves it into the music somehow.
18:57
It was like one of these moments where I thought, "Oh my god, I know the moment you're talking about. It's adorable."
19:03
The guy's so embarrassed that he does it and his reaction start dancing together.
19:07
Yeah, it's very it's really nice.
19:07
you used the word um this this word itch before. Yeah.
19:12
So many of my questions for you guys are like metaphorical for other people building creating stuff.
19:16
Uh we both are passionate about people that build companies.
19:20
We'll talk about that plenty today too.
19:22
But but this getting in touch with the itch is actually a non-trivial part of making anything great. Yeah.
19:29
And I would love to hear from both of you like how you originally found yours like I as a as a source of in inspiration for people that like want to find their itch.
19:38
which I think most people don't even ever know what the itch is.
19:40
So, like where did that where did it come from for both of you?
19:42
I didn't like grow up wanting to be a musician necessarily.
19:46
I always had a really close relationship with music, but it was never like a viable career path in my mind.
19:52
Um, I think like for me, I was always like a very visual creative type person.
19:57
I was obsessed with like Nike commercials back in like the '9s and uh and 2000s.
20:02
I would actually like record them on to like a VHS tape cuz I was like so inspired by like the feeling you got after you watch them.
20:10
Um, and like visually the storytelling and obviously the personas that they had like involved was super cool.
20:17
I was a huge like NBA fan as a kid. I think most kids are.
20:20
Um, and and I started like, you know, painting a lot when I was younger.
20:24
And I think it was like trying to like find a language my, you know, what is that language that I can speak that like conveys these feelings that I get from, you know, watching these like Nike commercials.
20:35
As you know, you get older.
20:37
My dad was an art dealer.
20:38
And he was, you know, fairly successful with it before he passed away.
20:42
And I think that like when he passed away, it like changed kind of a lot of how I like thought about the world and like what my opportunity was going to be within it.
20:50
And I kind of like knew on some level it was like an out hustle, out work mentality of things, but like I wouldn't say growing up I looked at the world with like like I want to be a musician or I want to be a businessman.
21:05
I only knew about the art world cuz that's what was my dad was in it.
21:09
And so it kind of felt like that, you know, it's like probably like growing up on a farm where you're just like I'm gonna be a farmer. It's what I know.
21:14
know. and and then you know you go out into the world and experience different things and different opportunities and kind of I think the the itch for me is about like where where your like passions lie like what do you like actually like spending your time doing and what what do you find yourself being drawn to you know and I think New York going to school here was like the
21:32
perfect place for someone like with my ADHD because you're getting pulled into so many different directions of of events and experiences and you know art the art world and and I think through that, you know, but you also have to like survive here, which is like kind of the, you know, if you can make it here, you can make it anywhere sort of mentality. And I always found that like
21:50
And I always found that like piece super inspiring.
21:53
But like I I don't know, it's a tough thing cuz like the itch to me is like I would I I'd say like it was something that was like far away in the distance that I could like see but didn't actually like have the ability to do anything.
22:07
And then when we finally, you know, started obviously really building the chain smokers and things started to work, it was like, oh my god, you know what I mean?
22:14
This is the feeling that I've been like seeking out this whole time and I've just been like applying maximum pressure, kind of grasping at different opportunities.
22:23
grasping at different opportunities. So I think that's why it's like when you meet these young founders uh you know I think having uh you know not necessarily being like I've always wanted to build this product is is great mentality of
22:36
course but it's like someone that's like worldly I think offers I don't know just a more interesting perspective to me about like how they go about being successful in whatever it is they're passionate about because you know it's not just like a straight line anymore. I
22:47
I think there's so many things that shape a great founder or shape a great company.
22:53
I think it's more important to have that like uh paranoia, you know, deep within you that like forces you to like kind of live in p fear your whole life or something uh that that like allows you to be, you know, successful.
23:08
So it it it's tough for me cuz the the itch was never like it was just like a survival, you know, thing or like proving people wrong more than like I just want to, you know, do things cuz I stopped painting when I was like 15 or something.
23:20
And it was like wasn't like a sad day for me, you know?
23:22
Um it was just kind of like I'm moving on.
23:24
I don't have like Yeah, I'm out of paint.
23:27
Like I just don't really want to do this, you know, anymore.
23:32
It's more of a mentality thing of how you like search.
23:33
But it was a feeling like you were chasing there.
23:36
There was some vector there that you could totally was a feeling that there was like I felt like I was being, you know, like chased also by like people's expectation of what they thought things how things were going to end up.
23:46
Growing up in New York, too, you like a lot of people go on to be, you know, super successful much faster.
23:51
Sometimes you're like, "Oh my god, like half my friends have jobs at like great banks now and or I'm like a nightlife promoter, you know, like this sucks."
24:00
Uh but you know it's like also like in high school like I mean I wasn't like a loser in high school but I definitely wasn't like the super popular kid and it's like you know no offense to any my friends listening that right now you know it's like but some of y'all peaked in nth grade you know what I mean and I'm just glad that wasn't me to tweak the question slightly because I want to hear the itch answer for you too.
24:22
Um I'm curious how the notion of like happiness versus dissatisfaction versus paranoia figures into into your head.
24:29
I'm trying to figure that out with my therapist now.
24:31
Uh I grew up in Maine and I later in life, you know, now I'm very thankful to have grown up in Maine.
24:38
You know, I grew up in a small pretty liberal society that everyone kind of did everything, you know, like everyone was small town, everyone was in theater, every that also played, you know, varsity sports and like um was super, you know, um studious and all that stuff.
24:53
So, it was really like great community to grow up in.
24:54
But, um I felt super trapped.
24:56
There was something inside me from a young age that was like I there's so much more going on in the world.
25:02
My mom was a super curious person and I think I inherited a lot that from her genetically and through through her parenting.
25:09
Um my mom was just like a just a great explorer and still to this day like loves learning and seeing more things and I I always wanted that and you know there wasn't a lot of opportunity to leave Maine as I was a kid and I think music was the thing that illuminated everything for me.
25:23
illuminated everything for me. was super passionate about playing music from a really young age and then as soon as I kind of developed my own musical stage I was very obsessed with um just like what I hadn't heard before and I think that's what eventually brought me to dance music is because you know I had this
25:39
transformative experience like when I was 16 and I did an exchange program in uh Argentina and I heard you know the beginning of David Gheta and like Da Punk for the first time and this artist Trenton Mhler who I fell in love with and I heard these sounds that were just like I had never seen colors like that. That in a nutshell is like my pursuit of
25:57
That in a nutshell is like my pursuit of the itch that I'm always trying to scratch.
26:00
I'm trying to hear something new and and it's quite torturous to be honest because once you've done something you're like yeah okay like that's that's happened and how do you innovate?
26:10
It's like innovator's dilemma.
26:12
Like how do I continue to create something that my fans really feel connected to and that I feel connected to and like really respects the core identity that is me and the music and this thing that I've built that's also innovative that feels like, you know, is still me and make gets me excited to go up and play new songs and my fans feel like it's fresh.
26:31
And I think it's a pretty like torturous pursuit.
26:33
Um that drives me crazy a lot of time.
26:37
We have, you know, I won't name names, but there are some artists in our genre and other genres that have just seemed to make the same song like again and again and again.
26:48
And I think for a while we were kind of like, all right, we don't need to hear, you know, this person's new song because heard it already.
26:52
Yeah, I heard it already.
26:54
But we look at what that like looks like over like 10 to 15 years and you're like, "Oh my god, they're the only person that does that sound and all these fans are just amassing and telling their friends and all this thing."
27:06
Like you look at like someone like the Grateful Dead and you look like what's that become?
27:09
Like they they're maybe the best people at making fans over time and um incredible musicians, but they've created this experience that's like replicable that people can tell that people can rely on and tell their friends about and has great ethos.
27:24
And I think that's really, you know, interesting to think about as we're like kind of what does the rest of Chain Smokers look like for us?
27:31
How do you think about like an like a tech idea like product market fit for you going forward?
27:38
Like obviously you've had it in the past just like I don't know measured by streams or popularity or something.
27:43
But if you think about it perspectively and you were to like redefine what success would mean, how much is it for the audience versus for yourselves?
27:50
Like it's such an interesting question.
27:53
A lot of artists would probably struggle with this question, us included.
27:57
I'm trying to figure that out all of the time.
28:00
And part of me wants to just get out of my own way and just be like, "Fuck it."
28:05
Like, I just have to make stuff that like there have been a couple records like we made this record called Don't Lie that our fans didn't connect to and didn't connect commercially.
28:15
Um, it came out just what, six months ago. Yeah.
28:18
And when I hear that song, I'm like, "Fuck yeah, I did the goddamn thing on that."
28:27
like from like a writing production like as like a pop like kid I'm like this like Kim Kim Petetrus awesome artist sounds amazing on it the whole vibe of the record I just hear it and I'm like very proud of it but there's something about it that just like didn't connect
28:42
was it the marketing was it this was it just like that song from us was it that song in general you know maybe that didn't have the essence of of Alex and I in it enough you know or um maybe we maybe it didn't feel like we meant it enough, you know. Um, but for some
28:56
Um, but for some reason, our fans didn't connect to that song.
29:00
That other piece of the puzzle is what we're trying to figure out now.
29:03
It's like, how do we show people we really care about this music without like looking like some Gen Z on Tik Tok doing stupid, you know, like videos that like work for some people, but it isn't us.
29:16
And I think like a lot of it comes down to like language and like how you present yourself.
29:20
And I think like same thing for like companies and product market fit.
29:23
It's like what is the story you're telling? Why should people care?
29:28
How are you sharing it with the world?
29:30
And if you don't like care about it, then why should any why would anyone else?
29:34
And I think that like the best intentionality matters more than ever.
29:38
Like your your fans want to know that like you love this thing that you created, you know, in a world of slop, you know, like how how do you show them that?
29:48
Is it just the quality of the work? I don't know.
29:49
You know, I'm really confused about this part, especially in this day and age where I see artists that aren't us that have a different vibe or are from a different generation do it so effortlessly.
29:59
Um, I think like presenting stuff as art is always like super important.
30:06
Um, I'm really loving one of my favorite bands is this band called Turnstyle.
30:10
They're a hardcore band from Baltimore.
30:12
It just reminds me of so much stuff that I grew up on and but feels fresh and repackaged and like the videos are amazing and the roll out and there's so much intentionality behind it that like a lot of I'm realizing a lot of the projects that I'm really gravitating to are um just kind of encapsulating all of that stuff.
30:33
We've I don't know that we've ever intentionally like gone after that.
30:37
We've just kind of been like we're making tunes.
30:38
we're going to do all the shows we can and like that inherently became the you know us.
30:42
This really interesting thing about you guys to me is not just work ethic like your work your work ethic we could talk about that it's obviously predigious.
30:50
It's it's incredible the amount of stuff that you guys do but it's this combination of like the work ethic as a means to build relationships with more people.
30:58
Like it seems like everyone I know has some experience of you guys.
31:02
They've met you somehow like somehow you've met everyone.
31:05
You've been had a nice interaction with them.
31:07
like there's a high degree of accessibility that seems to come with the work ethic that allows for these relationships.
31:13
How do you think about work ethic plus relationships as like a a key part of what defines you guys?
31:19
First of all, you have to want to do do that.
31:21
We love to throw parties and we love to choose the music.
31:28
Um and we love to curate the vibe and like that was why we became DJs pretty, you know, down the middle.
31:34
That was always really inherently us.
31:36
I mean, we love making music.
31:38
We love starting businesses.
31:41
We love helping other businesses.
31:42
Um, but I think like at the first thing that we kind of after was capitalizing on this desire to be create a fun ass time for people.
31:50
Um, and I think that is what we've continued to do at all levels.
31:58
and we we're hyper curious and hyper and it's I think very gratifying for us to be able to pull people into our world and um it like person makes me really happy when you can include someone that's not typically included in a lot of their either social dynamic or work setting or whatever when they come to our show or to hang out with us backstage.
32:21
If you can make 30 to 90 seconds and really like listen to someone and look in them in the eye and and offer them a drink in your environment or you know anything there.
32:33
I mean that's I mean that's the little like bits of magic that you get to pass around and hopefully they keep passing on to somebody else.
32:38
And um I think that's kind of the just soul of what we do.
32:44
And um you know you do that for 13 years, it feels like you've met everybody or um people feel like they've had a great connection, you know, with you or with each other at your thing.
32:54
And um that's a nice I like you I think we like being those guys.
32:58
I feel like I I mean I was like like I said earlier, not like not the you know most popular kid in high school, but not the worst either.
33:06
And not the worst in the middle.
33:09
But I think that's like my whole attitude was like I was just friends with everybody, you know what I and just generally like nice person varsity basketball team I'd hung out with to like the art kids later and it's like I you know ironically was like school president but I feel like that was like a summation of and I never thought that
33:25
was never like a goal it was kind of like people were like everyone likes you yeah like you should obviously do this like everyone you know would totally vote you're friends with everybody and and I feel like that was like such an interesting experience like in life where like there wasn't like we don't
33:40
talk to that person cuz they're like this cuz it's like I always felt like that I wasn't plenty of times I wasn't cool or whatever and it meant so much to me when someone like came out of their way to like make you feel acknowledged or comfortable in something and I felt like if you could like you know continue
33:56
to challenge myself challenge myself to like be that person in all sorts of different settings scenarios and it wasn't like with this long-term goal that's like you know Billy Madison when he's like calls Steve Bushi and he apologizes and then Steve Bushi saves him you know and he's like, "Thank God I called that guy." It's not like that sort of
34:14
It's not like that sort of thinking where you're like, you know, one day this guy's going to put money in my fund. You know what I mean?
34:19
It's more like, you know, it doesn't matter if you're the CEO or an S, you know, SDR, like a huge company or whatever.
34:27
It's like just come and and, you know, be a part of world and like if you bring great energy, like that's super interesting and exciting to me.
34:36
And I think we feed off of that experience that we give people like Drew said and you know we play Vegas hundreds and hundreds of times and people are like how are you still doing this and it's like because every weekend there's like a new group of people people coming experiencing this for the first time and they're so excited and you sometimes forget how lucky you are to be in that position.
34:57
The kindness that people have showed us in the past from like radio stations that you know supported us early on when they didn't need to. Life is so long.
35:05
Um, and I think if you, like Drew said, really like take a second to listen.
35:09
I I've read this interest I think Chuang Fan, I hope I'm pronouncing his name right, posted this interesting blog post from this wedding photographer who's been like shooting weddings for like 30 years or something.
35:18
like 30 years or something. And it was like all these like it was like 21 insights that she's like noticed about like bride and grooms and different people that attend weddings and the personalities that they have and and and
35:30
it was like you know some of them felt a bit over the top but like a lot of them were like that's super interesting observation and I think if you like study people and study relationships you're like that's kind of all it is like we're all just interacting with each other. That's the like
35:43
That's the like fundamentally what business is.
35:44
It's fundamentally what relationships are.
35:47
Um, and so if you can like put yourself in a position where people enjoy being around you and and and and feel, you know, seen when you're with them.
35:56
Um, I think that's amazing.
35:59
And it's something we definitely struggle with as you get busier, too, because it's like I mean, I'm like I'm taking calls in like August right now, you know, and it kills my soul to be like, I would love to speak to you in September, you know what I mean?
36:11
Uh, that's just I guess it's just getting older and [ __ ] Yeah.
36:13
If I think about Chain Smokers, Inc.
36:15
like the the enterprise around the art, how has that what does it look like and how has it evolved?
36:24
And this is maybe like a good bridge question into talking about investing and businesses and stuff, but if you just think about your business first and foremost, how much are you thinking about it?
36:32
How much is it intentional, you know, looking a certain way versus just more of like a residual thing that has evolved alongside your music?
36:40
It's evolving as we're trying to simplify it as much as possible.
36:42
And I mean that in the ways of like just like really looking at how we spend our time, how we enjoy spending our time, what we're getting the most out of, and kind of stripping away everything else.
36:54
I think like, you know, kind of when our career was on the rise for the first time, I mean, we were so curious and we wanted to do, you know, for all the reasons we've told you about us in our past, whatever, you know, wanted to try all these different things, said yes to way too much.
37:08
And I think that, you know, through doing that, we've found the things that resonate with our core.
37:15
Um, uh, making the music that we make is still the number one.
37:18
Our last two things will be venture and music, you know, and we genuinely are in love with both of those things.
37:24
And I think, uh, sometimes I regret having a situation where we have both, but if I had to pick one, I don't know which one I would pick.
37:33
Um, and I think just trying to build processes through both of them, both of those businesses that like we can do them in like I don't want to say effortless ways, but like the ones that are most um synced to who we inherently are.
37:51
Um, so that we're able to, you know, everything we said about intentionality and, you know, creating art that's really you, like, how do we open that process up so we can do that the easiest?
38:02
I hope that's how that's how we're striving to evolve now. Yeah.
38:06
And I think that like I I mean that when we raise money for everyone, I get asked that question a lot.
38:09
And you know, I always say that like chainsburgers is the sun in our solar system because it's like everything circles around that.
38:15
And if it's a really strong sun, you know, it shines more light and creates more abundance and opportunity across, you know, Mantis and whatever Tequila Company and and other other things.
38:28
Whereas like I don't know if like a strong Mantis saves our music career, you know what I mean?
38:35
But maybe turn of events. Yeah.
38:38
But but I also think like you know what separated us and differentiated us early on and and kind of to Drew's point is is what we're trying to turn back the hands of time now is that like we did run Chance like a business.
38:47
Chance like a business. um as much as we ca like obviously care so deeply about the music and the creative aspect of it but it was also like this is a really unique opportunity that we want to make sure we're taking you know full advantage of and whether that was like doing too many things playing too many
39:05
shows or whatever take you know really control the business I mean I there is not a credit card statement that I have not gone through line by line still to this day you know week by week there's not you know a production budget that I haven't seen for a single show, you know, the way that we organized our team, uh, you know, it set us up for success in a lot of ways. I mean, co for
39:24
I mean, co for some artists was like pretty devastating, whereas for us, we were like, let's raise a fund. Yeah. Yeah.
39:31
You know, it was like great and and so I think, you know, the problem with that though was that we became like the CEOs of Chain Smokers.
39:39
And I think this is like relates to like probably a lot of like successful founders journeys is that they be like I was talking to you know founder of guy company who's crushing it right now.
39:50
And he was like all I do is HR. You know what I mean?
39:54
He's like I don't build [ __ ] anymore.
39:56
All I do is hire people and it [ __ ] sucks.
39:59
And I was like kind of know what you're going through. You know what I mean?
40:03
like we're on so many calls about internal politics and this and like I think we're actually like making really solid strides to fix that to go back to being the chain smokers instead of the CEOs of the chain smokers.
40:14
There's so many parallels between investing and and working with these companies and our own business.
40:20
And it's really fun to have our own business. Yeah.
40:22
Because it's so easy to be the therapist for somebody else and have an X-ray into like what they could be doing better, how to get out of their own way.
40:29
And then when it's you, it's like, you know, I this is how it's always done. I came up with this.
40:35
You have all this [ __ ] in the way.
40:35
And so it's been really it's been a great mirror investing in these other businesses and then kind of looking at our own and being like, how are we hitting these roadblocks or bottlenecks in our own Yeah. situation.
40:43
But I mean that key one being like you be the founder or be like the CTO or whatever you're like best at.
40:51
Like you don't have to be the CEO of your business, you know, hire someone that's great at that that's going to deal with that.
40:56
If you're the best product person, you're the best visionary at the company. Don't be the CEO.
40:59
Can you tell the Mantis origin story?
41:01
So like what what was the first conversation you had about it?
41:05
What were you trying to do with it?
41:05
Why did you do it in the first place?
41:07
did you do it in the first place? before Mantis creating a venture tech fund felt like the most I mean we've done a plethora of businesses we're very avid investors both privately and publicly you know the tech world in just public markets in uh real estate uh and I think
41:24
you know at the time of our rise to I guess like cultural zeitgeist time which was probably 2016 to 2015 to probably 2018 we met a lot of the um the class of founders that was like Drew Houston from Dropbox, Brian Chesky did Airbnb, u Michael Cyel who was at YC at the time. Um, and these guys were like really
41:45
Um, and these guys were like really amazing and opened our eyes to what private tech investing looked like.
41:51
Um, we didn't really know what venture capital was at the time.
41:54
Um, and we saw, you know, you know, through their eyes like, you know, a lot of them was simple as like why why are you guys could invest in like all of these these these brands based on like who you are.
42:05
people want cool people on the cap table and started with some something as simple as that idea.
42:10
Um, and then as we got to befriend these people and get an insight into how they ran their businesses, we realized we kind of had more in common with them than we did with most other musicians.
42:22
Um, you know, we like growth hacked our first promotional platform, crowdsourced our first tour.
42:27
We've always been doing like the most to kind of like try and get our music out there.
42:34
Um, and when we worked with a lot of other artists, we found the majority of them were like pretty disorganized and um, we're just kind of like in pursuit in a different way than we were.
42:43
And I fel think there was some kind of sense of familiarity and comfort and like-mindedness that we found with tech founders that like pulled us deeper into the space.
42:54
Um, so we did a bunch of private investing just yourselves just ourselves deal by deal and whatever you know conceptualized the idea to start the fund and then like Alex said when you know co happened we f we I mean we were kind of putting it together in 2019 before co happened.
43:09
Um but you know I don't I don't know what would have happened if co didn't happen because we were also prioritizing writing an album at that time and all of a sudden we had time to raise a fund on Zoom and write an album in the studio.
43:23
So naturally entertainer athletes have these platforms that um you know people are drawn to for different reasons.
43:29
And I think like when it relates to investing you're seeing a lot of CPG social you know social creator economy type stuff.
43:38
And you know initially for us that was like cool like I remember my business manager Josh was like basically you invest and you just like hopefully make a bunch of passive income.
43:44
Oh that's s how sick is that? You know what I mean?
43:49
Uh, and I was like, he also prefaces like you probably will lose your money, but like you could, which we did a lot of times.
43:55
We were really drawn to that like entrepreneurial spirit like I'm a we're go-getters. Like we work 24/7.
44:00
Like if there's something that we could do now, we're going to do it now, not 5 days from now.
44:03
And I think like as we began to connect with these founders and I remember getting like your first quarterly updates and you know, I remember responding to one and I was like, I could help you with that.
44:12
And they were like, nobody responds to these. And I was like, what? You know what I mean?
44:16
And then it was like these little ways that we were able to like make a real difference in these companies.
44:20
And then to Drew's point, like the people like Brian Chesy and and you know, Steve Huffman and the Con brothers were like, "Why are you investing in [ __ ] water companies?"
44:29
Like, you know, like my our company our water company's doing quite well. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
44:33
There's a few good ones and we've made, you know, some decision, but they were like, there's a whole world of opportunity investing out there into like really exciting companies.
44:41
And I remember like doing the Uber series like f and I thought I was like in early uh and I think I've made like $6,000 on this investment and but like at the time like I was like this is the coolest company ever and like it's actually changed my life and my friends lives and and like I want to find more stuff like this versus like you know another beverage company or something like that.
45:03
Uh although like we were very lucky with Poppy and Poppy like to its credit like reinvented what the soda category looked like and and and will probably look like in the future.
45:11
And so like that was a really nice blend of technology and forward thinking uh and messaging as and then as it relates to marketing and and distribution whereas I think a lot of like CPG is just distribution and kind of marketing.
45:24
The tech investing you just get a front seat view of the future.
45:28
It's the most stimulating show you could watch, you know, and you get to it favors the optimistic, which like we're artists.
45:35
We like to dream about things that don't exist yet and building a world.
45:40
And I think like we didn't know it would be a lot of cyber security platforms.
45:43
But but uh now we got to secure all those things.
45:47
things. But uh it kind of reminds me of like being in like your assembly in like middle school, high school where like every now and again they would bring in like a professional and they would like speak about their career to your to the audience for like an hour and you'd be
46:00
like that guy actually did this [ __ ] this is like really interesting and exciting to me to learn from versus like the event like aa teacher that's just like kind of like here's my you know perspective on something that happened or a career and it's like you know in venture you get to sit down for half an
46:16
hour an hour hopefully many many times with like a founder that's like I've studied this space I've lived and breathed this you know business and I'm going to tell you everything about it right now and that's like for someone like me that's like the coolest thing to spend you know five or six hours a today
46:32
learning from an you know experienced person in a new technologically exciting area but like obviously the evolution of Mantis has like changed I don't want to say changed dramatically just evolved a lot I mean I remember like on our first like partner call they were like so how
46:46
much are we going to raise and someone was like 100 million and I was like is that a lot like kind of feels like a lot you know I don't turned out to be a lot I don't know I have no [ __ ] clue you know like like I just want to start and I think like a big part of anything is just start doing it that to me is like
47:03
probably one of the things that sets us apart and makes our partnership so unique is that like we push each other into these areas that you're like maybe on your own you'd be like I just I don't know where to begin so I'm not going to begin you know and that's the cold start problem obviously is the hardest part of
47:17
any process but I think with us we're very like comfortable putting ourselves in those uncomfortable situations but also like because of how we interact with people and the relationships we've had we're just like listeners you know and we spent the better part of those three is doing 10 hours of calls a day
47:34
with like any investor or founder that would speak to us and just like asking questions and like learning through their experiences the mistakes they made or the things we should think about, you know, and like and a lot of it began to contradict each other by the end of it. But like there was definitely some
47:48
But like there was definitely some patterns and and things uh there.
47:49
And like I think through those conversations we were like wait a minute like this does feel like an extension of like what being a good investor means is an extension of what made us good in Chain Smokers.
48:01
And it gave me you know a lot of confidence that like we were right to get into this space.
48:06
get into this space. But I think fighting the con you know preconceived conceptions and and rightfully so a lot of them about like being a celebrity investors and I've told this before but it's like you know on fund announce day there it wasn't like a positive vibe you know like people weren't like finally
48:22
you know what I mean like chain smoker sort of you know it was like the opposite people were not stoked about it at all to me we saw that as like as much as it was like a hill we were going to have to climb a the bar was clearly low so it was like maybe we don't have to do that much to be that much better. But it
48:36
But it was like also like a market opportunity was like, wait a minute, like people think we're going to be [ __ ] useless and that like this is based on a lot of other people that have come before us and their experience with them.
48:47
You know, if we do this right, like it's a lot of white space for us to be unique and different and kind of that's the kind of product market fit that we found in our music early on and that I think like gave us the confidence to start Mantis and and take it, you know, really seriously.
49:02
What are the things that most map over from what has worked for building Chain Smokers into what you're feeling early on as working as investors?
49:10
Being comfortable losing is a weird one.
49:13
Um, you know, like no one wants to lose, but I think you have to like and you know, it's a power law game in music.
49:19
Like you build a career off of like a couple of huge songs hopefully.
49:23
And then there's lots of hopefully other lots of great music, but you know, only very few artists will like like a Drake, you know, will just constantly deliver smash songs for 10 15 years or Bruno Mars is probably the most notable one from a percentage basis.
49:37
Um, but like you have to learn from each song and iterate and grow and be comfortable with that.
49:45
And it's like, you know, venture is very much the same thing.
49:47
you're going to hopefully back a couple of extraordinary companies, but most your companies won't go on to be super successful and you can't like lose sight of that like think you're a terrible investor, you know, like each of those opportunities kind of like built or like paved the way for what hope hopefully more future success comes.
50:06
I've been thinking a lot recently about how the relationship between an artist and a record label is the basically the same as a founder and their uh investor.
50:15
Um and I think about how we are now in the other seat and we are now on the label side um investing in these companies.
50:26
side um investing in these companies. I think how I think about we've been really fortunate to work with we've been at Colia Disruptor for 9 years and they've done an incredible job for us but you see all the ailments of like you know people like having a bad relationship with their their label and I think a lot of times we try to think
50:46
about how to okay cool now we're on the label side we are an investor what what can we do to to support these founders and that's be kind of like become a brand promise for for our fund is like we are like the the we want to be the utility player because every company's different, every founder is different, everyone's needs are different. How can How can we help you?
51:03
And I think that's the same for every single artist with their label where there a lot of art like labels that want to be helpful, but they just don't know how.
51:09
Um, and all you can really do when you're in that position is like get in the game and be like, "What can I do?"
51:15
Like this and be be straight up.
51:17
This is my area expertise.
51:19
I don't know that person, but I know a guy who does.
51:20
I'm going to try to make an email intro for you for you.
51:21
like we don't hire that type of like employee, but we're going to I'm going to hit up these three recruiters.
51:27
Just like putting in the effort and showing showing these people that you support them.
51:31
Um, and to Alex's point, like you know, things that like felt like tasks that, you know, we saw our founders need from us that felt so far out of our grasps were actually much more attainable.
51:42
attainable. you realize that like you know there was a level of like hightouch responsiveness that like you know us primarily Alex I mean we don't have to go into the history of like how we built the chain smokers and how instrumental Alex's uh thorowness in being in touch with people has has been
52:01
um you know to our success but I mean just just kind of being the partner that like I you know we see every artist wishing they had um at at a label I have a collaboration question I I told each of my kids this morning on the drive to school that they could come up with one question for you guys. My daughter's
52:15
My daughter's question was about the song Jungle with Alock, which is her favorite, I guess.
52:22
And she wanted to know how you how one of those works, which in in this world is so common.
52:26
Like you see multiple collab DJs, collaboration, etc.
52:28
Like literally how two people in that independently can do the thing come together to work on a shared thing.
52:37
I mean, it's always different and we've done tons of collabs.
52:41
We worked with tons of writers, tons of producers.
52:44
We're kind of always collaborating with people and it's always I mean like a session in our opinion there's your job is to get into the room with this person that hopefully you have mutual respect for each other's music.
52:53
You see some kind of like vision that your sounds could work together.
52:57
Um or you have some like great idea around what this song could be together. Whatever.
53:01
There's some basis for you guys doing a session together.
53:05
hopefully, you know, your job as like a great songwriter, producer, just artist is like, how do we get on the same page as quickly as possible?
53:14
Um, which is kind of a fascinating thing about songwriting.
53:16
Um, that you know is like you get in the room with someone, it's like what are you?
53:21
And sometimes I try to preempt this like I try to figure out where this person is at before we get together.
53:28
Um, I think Alex and I just being the type of people we are like we want to make we don't have a lot of time and we want to make the most out of every session.
53:36
So like you know having three like beat like starts of an idea which could just be like a small piece of music or like chords that feel a certain type of way you know or or or a vocal that's really great but like the the dance like the drop or the dance part's like not great and like maybe that would be great if that person came and did the drop.
53:56
Um, and this goes both ways.
53:58
Typically, we're pretty specific about the lyrics and like we like to write them.
54:03
And it's jungle actually is one of the only songs recently that we did not write.
54:10
I don't think I wrote anything on that on the top line of that song.
54:15
Um, which is like that's maybe like 5% of Chain Smoker songs.
54:18
Um, but Alak brought that song to us and we were like like let's make this like a big sounding donk 140 BPM record which also doesn't sound like is ancore sound.
54:31
So it's like an opportunity for us to go and make something that like you know doesn't fit in the the typical Chain Smokers bucket.
54:40
So yeah, I think it was I feel like we got that top line.
54:41
It was like fairly stripped back and from him and we were like this is cool.
54:46
But because you don't write, you're kind of just like, you listen to it and you're like, I don't I like it. You know what I mean?
54:53
But you're like, but the fact that we didn't write it kind of like adds this level of friction to it, but like you kind of put it to the side cuz like music is, you know, like very subjective in terms of like what how you're feeling in that moment, that day. Are you frustrated? Are you in a rush?
55:07
And I think we like played it a couple of times for like different friends of ours and everyone was like, "This is sick."
55:15
And you're like, "I know." You know what I mean?
55:16
And you're kind of like I know and and we love him and obviously he's massive artist especially in like Brazil which is like a really important you know mark to us and like you look at these things being like well this is a guy we get along great with you know has a tremendous amount of uh you know like a huge fan base and this would be fun. Yeah.
55:34
Like like what is there to lose here really?
55:36
Like we do like this top line if we can produce it in a way that feels interesting and and and and and connects back to us.
55:43
connects back to us. I think that's where we we've in the past and the few times we've done it like you know like people are like I love this song and you're like what does it mean to you and you're like you know it sucks and you're like it doesn't mean any you know what I mean like we didn't write this you know
55:57
what I mean and that's why I think we're really not drawn to that type of thing because we really want to be able to like tell people why this song's important has meaning and purpose and it does have meaning and purpose to someone you know what I mean uh but yeah it was like a fun one to make and then you know getting to like finally get to play it. I think we played it at Ilssonique for
56:14
I think we played it at Ilssonique for the first time.
56:16
Um, and he has like a whole vibe, you know, like I'm sure if you've seen him online like he's looks like he's living in 2080 stylistically and he's done some incredibly big shows, you know, uh, and he really I think he's like one of those other than Anita like the most Yeah, he's huge, you know, Brazil.
56:32
I just went to carnival with him.
56:34
Uh, it was a blast in Baya was crazy.
56:37
You play for two million people in on a bus that drives through the street for five hours.
56:41
That's what like is exciting about collaboration I think in general is like having the opportunity a taste of other parts of the world.
56:49
See what how other people approach their art like even the teams from a promotional standpoint like how are you selling this record or what tricks do you have up your sleeves or who are the directors that you like to work with for music videos?
57:00
work with for music videos? um you know tonally like uh you know it's exciting like Zerb the song addicted like you know that was his second big song and you know like you felt like you were a small chapter and what will probably be a really long successful career for him
57:16
but it was like we're a big feature of that the same way that Coldplay is for us or Holly is for us and we are for them um and I think that's like uh you know a really interesting way to kind of like build a career and also give you fresh perspective about how you're approaching, you know, your process and your music. Cuz it's like similarly, you
57:34
Cuz it's like similarly, you sit down and you're like, "Man, everything must be great for you."
57:38
And it's like you sit down with an artist like, "Dude, I'm stressed the [ __ ] out.
57:43
Like, I'm upset about this."
57:43
And you're like, "Well, it looks amazing." Yeah.
57:46
Oh, so we're all kind of like not happy really or stressed about stuff.
57:48
Um, and it's nice to see that, you know what I mean?
57:52
I think that's probably why founders, you know, uh, like I feel like in venture there's that kind of trope or a motif that's just like founders love founders and vent most venture capitalists or they love vent venture capitalists that were founders of some sort because you understand the process and struggle a bit more um, than someone who hasn't gone through that journey. on that specific point.
58:13
You mentioned early like kind of what it takes to win early on and growth hacking your way on the on the promo thing or or you know uh the early things that drove some of the initial success. What were those things?
58:27
And and I'm sure this is something you're looking for in people and in companies like the ability to sort of scrap their way from nothing to something and then build on that.
58:34
What were those things that you were referring to a couple times?
58:37
I think it was just really scrappy.
58:38
I mean I think like we obviously put ourselves in a like I quit my day job.
58:42
He moved down from Maine and lived on his ex-girlfriend's couch, which is probably really uncomfortable.
58:48
Um, and we like were just like, "This is it."
58:52
Like, we have to put all of our eggs in this basket and, you know, that will hopefully, you know, push us to work that little, you know, like extra few hours every day and stuff. Yeah.
59:02
There's definitely something to that.
59:03
Like I was like $150,000 in debt.
59:04
He like left his like, you know, he had a way of a comfortable job. Yeah.
59:11
comfortable job. Yeah. Um and my boss was like you're what it was like don't do this you can come back if when this doesn't work out you you know which I appreciated um but didn't want to go back but I think that that was a big part of it I think for us we spent a lot of you know like time trying different
59:29
things you know I think like that iterative process of being like but also being like really honest about it like I remember you know making some song that like sounded very much like an Avichi kind of like uh tonally song tone Tonally song and then uh and we were like this is fire but then we were like is it though cuz it's just like Avichi but not Avichi. The beginning of our
59:50
The beginning of our career we were like trying to emulate people like that and like Zed and Avichi and Skrillex and Calvin Harris um and David Geta and Swedish House Mafia.
1:00:02
There was so much exciting things happening in dance music but we were I was a novice producer.
1:00:06
You were just getting into it.
1:00:08
Um, we you DJ gigs around the city and we love we grew up on indie music and so we would go on um this website called Hype Machine.
1:00:16
I don't know if you ever were aware of that.
1:00:19
It's like the first viral chart of the internet and it was all music that wasn't kind of being officially released.
1:00:24
It was like tons of dance remixes.
1:00:26
Remixes in general were like a new co concept.
1:00:28
Um, so we go on Machine and we would uh look at, you know, the top 50 tracks and they were all tracks that we love.
1:00:36
They weren't didn't have a presence in dance music.
1:00:38
A lot of like the DJs we just mentioned were remixing Rihanna, Lady Gaga, whatever was like on the pop radio at that time.
1:00:45
And we were like, well, we love indie music and we grew up on indie music and hardcore music and all this stuff that doesn't really have a presence in the dance world.
1:00:53
These songs are already trending. Why don't we?
1:00:56
So, what Alex, you know, would go into.
1:00:57
So, basically find contact information for every artist that was on this chart and send them a hilarious personalized email.
1:01:04
we would get a response and you know in the beginning we were just kind of like taking what we could get.
1:01:09
No one really to respond to us.
1:01:11
He would give me the stems.
1:01:12
I would do this remix and then he would go into the back end of Hype Machine.
1:01:17
He would find every writer that wrote for every blog that Hype Machine scraped music from and he would send them a hilarious personalized email.
1:01:23
And what we realized is all of these kids were uh just college kids that wanted to be closer to music.
1:01:30
And here, you know, they're getting these blanket press releases that are just just generic.
1:01:33
no one reads them, whatever.
1:01:36
Coming from a label, not even like attached to a personal email.
1:01:39
Um, versus like Alex being the guy who made the song, sending you the song.
1:01:44
It's a song that you're already posting about, so it's relevant.
1:01:47
It's a dance remix, which is the most trendy new sound at the time.
1:01:49
So, he gave people a lot of reason to, and then he wrote this really [ __ ] funny email that like everyone related to, and within three emails, they felt like they had a personal connection with us, which they did.
1:02:00
Um, and I think within the first year of our career, you know, we went from zero to 30 number ones on Hype Machine.
1:02:07
We got that took us out of, you know, DJing at Pink Elephant and all Great Times 2012 club scene in New York.
1:02:15
But, um, you know, then we started we're doing colleges here and there and that kind of was our first step.
1:02:18
And eventually like that process of like building a distribution kind of channel with all of these blogs transferred into then we started putting out original music and we had to do it with radio.
1:02:30
You know, you do a show in in San Francisco. Okay.
1:02:32
Well, you got to drive to San Jose that morning and do any DJ that wants to talk to you from every station.
1:02:38
You do go and like form a relationship with them.
1:02:39
And then, you know, you go to Oakland and you do that there.
1:02:43
And then you go to San Francisco and do San Francisco at night.
1:02:44
And then you go do your shows.
1:02:46
And the next day you fly to Chicago and you do the same type of thing.
1:02:50
And you get a couple extra spins for those things.
1:02:51
And like you got everyone kind of like rooting for you.
1:02:55
Um, and like I think that's the kind of grit that like we want to see with our founders is like do you, you know, are do you have the tenacity? How bad do you want it?
1:03:05
How bad do you want this?
1:03:07
Like are you sometimes like this stuff people think you just put a hit song out and it becomes a hit?
1:03:13
Like you I think all the things we talked to you about today are all those little pieces that you don't see people doing or once it's successful and you try to like trace back to how it started you're like ah well they just put it out and the whole thing worked and it's like no you can't look at this [ __ ] retroactively.
1:03:27
You have to be like you know there's a there's a grind story behind everybody.
1:03:32
You know people grind to product market fit.
1:03:34
You know it's like sometimes they just stumble on it and they make it and it goes and it works forever.
1:03:38
But usually like, you know, I'm sure if you talk to any like long-lasting successful CEO like or founder, they've like there's been moments where like they're like, "Fuck, like my strategy is not working anymore, and I have to go back to like eating [ __ ] making phone calls, like begging people, like finessing relationships to like get myself through the next hurdle."
1:03:58
It seems to me like so much of the ability to do that grind requires that you love some core element of the thing you're doing.
1:04:05
I mean, you've talked about it with music all all day today.
1:04:07
Like, if a song doesn't work, it's fine.
1:04:10
You still love making music, you're going to make another one.
1:04:12
How much do does that matter to you when you're talking to a founder?
1:04:14
Like, how much maybe the broader way of asking the question is what are the things in the first conversation with a founder that you're that are non-negotiables for you that you like have to see to be interested?
1:04:24
I mean, I feel like uh I mean, Alex Porter Redpoint said this to me in like a really simple way, which is just like invest in people that are going to do this idea no matter what. You know what I mean?
1:04:32
even if it like fails, they're going to start it again with a from a different angle.
1:04:36
Then the question becomes, you know, is this a like step function better or is this like something that can potentially reshape the way that an economy or business or software or platform or service is used?
1:04:49
Um, you know, and I think like Uniquare Ventures does a really good job of how they think about like investing at the edge of ideas and then those ideas hopefully become more central.
1:04:58
Um, and then the TAM question answers itself because if you figure that out, it's going to be humongous.
1:05:05
Um, and so I think like that that obsession is really important to us.
1:05:07
And even like going back to the, you know, Drew anecdotes just now, like we weren't just like dance music's big.
1:05:12
We were like obsessed with dance music.
1:05:14
I mean, I was downloading off blogs before we even were I was, you know, learned to produce with Drew hundreds of songs a day, you know, that I would just like put in a folder cuz I just loved discovering new music.
1:05:27
And I also threw parties everywhere here in New York City for like six, seven, eight years.
1:05:31
So I also understood like how to fill a room.
1:05:36
I understood like as a club owner, you don't give a [ __ ] about what the DJ's playing.
1:05:40
You just want your club to be filled making money.
1:05:42
And so we understood like the business side of like how to be successful as a as the Chain Smokers within a venue, you know, and what was important to them.
1:05:50
And so we like really had all of these like pieces like understanding the same way that kind of it's sometimes advantageous to invest in a founder like is a specialist from that field like hey I was working at Salesforce this is a problem that I always had and now I'm starting that company and I think it's a problem that a lot of other people have and I've experienced it firsthand and I know the solution that I need to build.
1:06:13
Um like that I think that really resonates with me versus like the opportunistic like AI is hot right now.
1:06:19
I'm just going to build an AI company. You know what I mean? or something like that.
1:06:22
And I think like you might have short-term success, but as anyone who's been successful tells you, it's a very long road of getting kicked in the nuts a lot.
1:06:30
And you kind of have to just like love it so much that like you almost enjoy the misery of those moments and know that it's just like part of the process ultimately.
1:06:38
And I'm like going through this with a company of ours right now that's doing a really terrific job.
1:06:42
They just signed their first big enterprise customer.
1:06:44
They've spent like the last four months uh you know building out integration.
1:06:48
And I really like admire how this is a guy that would like 100% he's going to do, you know, bring BYO, bring your own cloud to like the forefront.
1:06:57
Like this is his life's mission.
1:06:59
Um I think he's built like a really compelling platform.
1:07:01
He's a really compelling enterprise customer.
1:07:04
But he's spent like every his Tim and his team have been like what else can we what do you need? What is not working?
1:07:09
How do we make this perfect?
1:07:09
You know, like we really want to learn through this experience with you as our first enterprise, you know, user.
1:07:14
how to make this successful versus being like who else wants this? You know what I mean?
1:07:20
And he's really being intentional the same way with us where it wasn't like let's just keep doing a million remixes like we would listen to these songs and be like does this meet the requirements of what we love and think is a great indie song that should get remixed or is this cuz it wasn't like always like this is the number one.
1:07:37
Sometimes it was like the 15th song but we were like this song is sick and we need to remix this this song.
1:07:44
And I think like that intentionality is super important.
1:07:46
You really want to find someone that like has that experience is like knows exactly what they need to solve for, but you really have to be careful to make sure that like that person like what did they do before they worked at this company?
1:07:56
You know, where do they come from?
1:07:58
Do they have a self-starter mentality?
1:07:59
Like like what have they done?
1:08:01
Do they just go and work here for a long time, like a while?
1:08:02
What did you do before this that makes me believe that you're going to be able to like [ __ ] [ __ ] up when it gets hard?
1:08:08
Um, and like keep rethinking things, keep having the tenacity that gets you through the hurdles that we see.
1:08:14
What is most different between how you're investing today versus when you started Mantis?
1:08:20
Like what's evolved the most in your style, your preferences, the process, the team like on the like practice of investing like from ownership and stage and like the discipline that goes into like making the the sense make dollars, you know?
1:08:33
Um, and I think that's a really important piece that like comes with experience the same way that you know you've had you know we've had been lucky to have conversations with Peter Fenon and Bill Gurley and Alfred Lynn and you know prolific investors and you know there was like certain commonalities we were just like you're going to think this it's not the truth but you're going to do it anyways and then you'll be where I am right now you know. So true. Yeah.
1:08:54
And they're totally right. Yeah. If we're lucky.
1:08:56
But I think like the funny thing is like if anything I feel like I've reverted back to where you know I think we're the strongest investor.
1:09:06
Like our goal at Mantis is to be like the sixth man on every championship team.
1:09:09
Like I want to work with the best investors and who are investing in the best founders and I want to absorb the things that both those parties are doing to like understand how to make better decisions and build a better firm.
1:09:20
And you know, that doesn't mean we're not contrarian thinkers and we're certainly not followers, but like information is so readily available everywhere right now where it's like you do see the best companies generally gravitating towards a specific group of investors uh that have been winning for a long time now or at least or identifying the new ones that are Yeah.
1:09:43
or specific individuals within those funds more more so than the brand of the fund itself.
1:09:47
Um, and and for us, like you kind of just know when there's like a really interesting, exciting founder.
1:09:55
Like it's just like there's like a hysteria around them in a lot of ways.
1:10:00
And I think there's like that part of investing which I kind of like find myself reverting back to.
1:10:04
I think some people might call like a signal investor, but at the same time I think it's like it's just like this pattern where it's like the space, the founder, the team, the investors, the, you know, perspective of where they came from before and the problem they're solving now, and you're just like, I don't know if they're going to be successful, but this has all of the ingredients of a company we should be investing into.
1:10:26
And then there's the founders where you're like, this is a bit I'm going out in the woods on my own a little bit here.
1:10:31
I don't think this idea is like so radically weird that like no one else is going to be interested in this, but like there's going to be a lot more alchemy than science initially.
1:10:42
And and those ones are kind of like the company I just brought up new on before.
1:10:45
It's like where I think is really exciting as an investor cuz you're like we're testing like a hypothesis right now about where we think the future is going.
1:10:52
And this guy has the right pedigree.
1:10:55
We have some solid people around the cap table with us.
1:10:59
us. But you know the momentum to get this ball moving is going to be a lot harder than the other company which is just like hey if Sequoia invested someone is going to do that a you know what I mean like even if it's like just for no reason you know and I think
1:11:14
that's what you have to learn through experience is like how do you see through all the noise and [ __ ] of like hype versus reality versus you know periods and you know it's like we've really seen a lot in the last six years and it really has like changed my
1:11:31
perspective on when you want to throw yourself into something and when something's not real in venture cuz I think like there's so many stages of like oh my god we got our company marked up to series A like we must be really good and it's like there's so much further for this company you know like
1:11:46
before you see any liquidity or success and so like it's interesting how you don't want to get kind of caught up in that part of the puzzle where you're like well I'm creating you know like my IRRa looks pretty solid right now and it's like what's DPI. That's really the question, you
1:11:59
That's really the question, you know, you need to be asking yourselves.
1:12:03
And and and I think like we're all kind of chasing that game of like who do who's who is our customer?
1:12:10
Is it the founders or is it our LPs?
1:12:12
Um and the answer is both obviously but like you walk this tight rope where you're you know trying to kind of decide where you think you should be putting the most you know time in cuz like you have founder you know company like for us when we started we were writing 25 50k checks into companies.
1:12:31
That was all we could get you know and it was about proving ourselves and building a reputation.
1:12:34
A lot of those companies are doing really well because like it was like squeezing into a really important hot round with great investors and great founders.
1:12:44
And now that we're looking for bigger allocation, it's we're still having success, but it's a different conversation now where you you know, you can't just be like, "Yeah, we're going to put you know, nice to have you." Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly.
1:12:56
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. So it it's been really interesting like going to and also like we have a team of people now that are extraordinary and you know everyone has their own identity and perspective on how they want to invest and evaluate things and you know I I feel like my job has always been to kind
1:13:12
of like try to reel them in kind of like how we're trying to treat the chain smokers now which is like dumbing it down being keeping it you know more simple than confusing cuz it's so hard to get kind of wrapped up in the minutia of everything and I've talked myself out of really good deals for for that reason. It reminds me of uh my son's
1:13:28
It reminds me of uh my son's question, himself, an aspiring music maker.
1:13:32
Um I thought I thought it was a really interesting question in the car this morning, which was how do they know what is the next skill that they need to improve?
1:13:41
Oh, that's a really good question.
1:13:43
This is definitely your kid. Yeah, exactly right. Your dad proud.
1:13:45
Uh I I thought that was so interesting because there's so many I'm sure there's 15 things you could go get better at at any given point in time.
1:13:54
and he was curious like that's where he is too.
1:13:57
He's trying to figure out Yeah, he's he's 11.
1:13:59
Um he's trying to figure out like what he's good at and what he needs to get better at.
1:14:02
And so that's what he wanted to know.
1:14:04
Um well, you can tell him I'm going to be thinking about that for the rest of the week.
1:14:07
Uh right now I'm trying to think about the back to the question of like dumbing things down.
1:14:13
It's like how do we you know we always feel like we're learning new stuff and there's new practices.
1:14:18
I mean like making music is a neverending ladder.
1:14:24
Um my drum teacher told me that when I was like 9 years old and it's the most true thing I've learned like about my in my musical journey.
1:14:31
I think now at this point you know you know we're always learning new things but like with the abundance of things that we have learned.
1:14:37
Um how do we not how do they not get in the way of our success?
1:14:42
Because there is something beautiful about a young artist that, you know, has their whole life to make their first album.
1:14:50
There's a little level of like they're just a little bit naive and like because of that, they're not overthinking [ __ ] and they're just doing like, you know, I'm part of this thing and like when I make records that sound like this, it feels like me and it makes me feel some type of way.
1:15:02
And like when I hear it, I like that should be the visual and like, oh, this guy's really cool.
1:15:08
Like this artist is really cool.
1:15:09
Maybe they'll do my cover art.
1:15:09
like just really like that's what we're just making music at the end.
1:15:13
It's a card and soul over mind or something. Yeah. Exactly. Exactly.
1:15:16
And I'm trying to like I think we're both trying to like reconnect with that as much as possible.
1:15:21
I mean like that's like the innovator's dilemma too once you've like reached this point and you're like which way do I go?
1:15:27
You know, do I do I like keep trying to like ride the wave of this thing that's kind of moved past me but I can kind of hang on to it or do you just like be steadfast in the thing that is inherently you?
1:15:39
Um, and there's not really a right answer.
1:15:41
You there's a bunch of success um, stories for either side.
1:15:46
But I mean, me personally, I'm trying to like not get in let the lessons that I've learned like get in the way. Yeah. The skills are weird.
1:15:53
I mean, I feel like I was thinking while Drew was talking about that and and you know, in venture I was like googling words like TAM on my first month of I was like, I don't know. We can say that now.
1:16:06
What are these like [ __ ] acronyms?
1:16:08
Everyone's obsessed with the scene. A big TAM's good, right? Yeah. Yeah.
1:16:12
And I'm just like, don't get me wrong, and I feel like, you know, I'm constantly asking stupid questions.
1:16:16
And honestly, I really am grateful to a lot of the people we've had a chance to get to work with and interact with because I think, you know, we've approached this space with a lot of respect and everyone's, I think, hopefully acknowledges that now.
1:16:27
And so, it's like there is no dumb questions.
1:16:29
It's like ask, you know, the questions.
1:16:31
I'm always like, explain this to me like a golden retriever. You know what I mean?
1:16:34
It's kind of something I'm say like a lot.
1:16:37
But it's funny when I'm like as we've gone deeper in the space and obviously like engineering is a huge part of any tech platform and I was like I kind of want to like try to learn how to code a little bit because I want to have like at least a semblance of not just respect but like understanding of when I'm
1:16:53
discussing these things you know the different processes and stuff and then you know and then now vibe coding and cursor and things like that exist and you're like okay so I don't need to learn coding anymore you know uh but and now it's back to taste which I feel like I have I'm pretty good at, you know. Um,
1:17:07
Um, and but it's an interesting process and like even in music, you know, like I played guitar growing up, but that was like not much that's that didn't carry on very long.
1:17:18
And I remember like few years into our career and I was like, dude, what if I have a kid one day and my kids like play closer for me and I'm like, oh, I can't, you know what I mean?
1:17:28
I was like, that's so lame.
1:17:28
So, I was like, I'm going to learn piano.
1:17:30
I took like 2hour lessons of piano 5 days a week for and I still do this to this day now.
1:17:37
But it was like the purpose was originally, you know, be like I can't claim to be a musician if I'm not like I can't play our music. That's ridiculous. You know what I mean?
1:17:47
And and so I figured that but in the process of practicing learning it like opened up a whole understanding of how to communicate my ideas to Drew or whatever as we're discussing music.
1:17:58
and it really like enabled me to be a much more like critical, thoughtful musician in general.
1:18:04
Um, and so it's like funny those skills, but I totally agree with Drew because like though at the end of the day where there is like an ignorance is bliss sort of thing to a lot of this where it's like you can talk yourself out of any situation, you know, and I think part of the investor's role is to be like how many miracles am I comfortable with in order for this for me to back this, you know, is five miracles too much or is it two or one?
1:18:29
you know, for things to go right.
1:18:29
And you kind of have to like look at it through that lens and think imagine that world.
1:18:35
And I feel like I I'm probably a little bit more like this in terms of my angel portfolio stuff where I'm just like, "Fuck it. Let's do it."
1:18:41
Like we invested in this company, Radiant Nuclear and Nuclear.
1:18:45
And you know, I remember talking to them over there on the first call and it was like, "We can't do this."
1:18:52
And then we were like, "But [ __ ] it." Yeah.
1:18:54
And we're like, "But if they do this and we didn't do it, I'm going to be really pissed off."
1:19:00
And a lot of it's like that sort of stuff.
1:19:02
Uh even though it sounds really stupid.
1:19:04
I mean, outside the fund, inside the fun, we have a process. I swear.
1:19:06
But he's like, you know, Doug is like, you know, got as good as pedigree and Bob as anyone to like tackle this problem.
1:19:12
It was just like the timelines were like, "And then in seven years we'll be able to test the first one."
1:19:17
And you're like, "Seven years we'll test it."
1:19:19
You know, and you're like, "All right, let's do it." You know what I mean?
1:19:24
it." You know what I mean? and now they're absolutely crushing it and you know and it's obviously like you know Monday morning quarterbacking it but it was like funny when you look at those things and you're just like we could have like called our friends Blake and Chad and had deep conversations with our friends that have experience in this
1:19:39
space and they all would have probably been like don't [ __ ] do this by what I was saying the other day like I don't know if we would have invested in Poppy again you know because we just don't we do we try not to stay away from CPG but like you know that was like a 30x, you know, and it's just but like again completely like yolo there. There is
1:19:57
There is again some level of like naivity that you're just like you got to have f it's got to venture favors optimism and you know I I hope we would have identified that like Poppy had two incredible founders but like maybe not maybe it was just like another soda.
1:20:13
just like another soda. I was talking to Alex once about some company in the portfolio and it wasn't like over Zoom or something it was live and he started rattling off the KPIs of the company and I was like wait you know the company's KPIs and then he was able to do that for
1:20:29
like a a bizarre amount of the companies and I asked him about it and he said like yeah no I know like all the numbers for all the companies which is surprising back to your point about like when you announced the venture fund everyone's like oh these like jackoffs have a venture fund now. Yeah. We're Yeah.
1:20:41
We're like we got to know all the numbers. Yeah, exactly.
1:20:44
But it's it's an amazing way that you've bridged the two worlds and obviously it's early days like you you said you probably do both these things forever.
1:20:52
Such a cool such an amazing history for me to hear. I've loved doing it.
1:20:56
When I do these, I ask the same traditional closing question of everyone.
1:21:00
I get to do it twice today.
1:21:02
What is the kindest thing that anyone's ever done for each of you? It's so funny.
1:21:05
I first of all obviously know that this is your final question and I thought about this on my redeye flight here for like so long and like I was like nobody's done any kind [ __ ] for me.
1:21:17
I was like I was like I don't think I want to like single out anyone that significantly.
1:21:21
Uh I love how you're going to you're going to say this with caveat like I did think about this for 10 hours today.
1:21:28
Truth is people aren't that kind to me.
1:21:30
uh like at least like in the ways that I've heard other people like think through these things.
1:21:35
I mean obviously I've got extraordinary friends and people in my life, but I guess if I had to like think of like I was trying to think of like a clever way to answer this because like uh funny enough I think it's like the it was an unkind thing that she delivered the I had this uh whatever home room adviser in sixth grade named Mrs.
1:21:56
park who was like I think she liked me but I think she like also understood that I was like at this really interesting crossroads in my life.
1:22:04
My dad had just passed away.
1:22:06
I was like you know super you know 12 years old super young and fashionable age as a young boy and you know I had a lot of friends but I was also not like a banging student by any stretch.
1:22:19
And she was just like very, you know, clearly me and she was like, "This is like the most important moment in your life."
1:22:26
And you were like probably not even recognize it till it's either, you know, till it's too late, either in a positive or good way.
1:22:32
But she's like, "You are like fully at a crossroads right now where like one path will lead you down, you know, uh, a road of success where you'll use this, you know, experience and the pain and everything that comes with it to like motivate you through life in a really positive way.
1:22:48
or you will just become a total [ __ ] and everything will be derailed and you'll go on to accomplish nothing.
1:22:53
And obviously as a six-year-old you're like what? You know what I mean?
1:22:57
what? You know what I mean? You're like it's like 8:15 in the morning like you know like I'm going through some [ __ ] But like it actually did really stick with me in a lot of ways like from that moment forward as I like thought about the different decisions I made in my
1:23:12
life whether in consequential or consequential was like kind of had this thing in the back of my mind which is like which path is this kind of leading me towards and really like motivated me to like get my [ __ ] together and become like a great like a good human and you know really good student and you know push myself. So, ironically, like I
1:23:29
So, ironically, like I think it's funny when someone can offer you advice like that and I think maybe too often in today's day and age, people are offering advice like this all the time.
1:23:40
People just don't listen anymore.
1:23:43
You know, you kind of like acknowledge it, but you don't really like think about fundamentally what it means.
1:23:46
And this is like a you know she was probably like in her 60 mid60s and this woman's obviously you know advised and you know taught whatever home room to hundreds and hundreds of kids and probably I'm not even probably the first kid she's had this experience with and it's like you know and I'm so grateful that she said that.
1:24:04
Did you feel like when your dad passed away at a young age like like it snapped you awake in in some way? It was really tough.
1:24:10
I mean my parents you know I love my mom she's still around. She's amazing woman.
1:24:14
And you know, I had a really tough uh upbringing.
1:24:19
They fought relentlessly.
1:24:21
Like I'm talking, you know, like insane fights.
1:24:23
Probably why I painted so much cuz I just didn't want to leave my room and have to interact and get in the mix of all that.
1:24:29
And and my dad passed away in the middle of the divorce.
1:24:31
It was like a really dark uh period.
1:24:33
like a really dark uh period. And but like kind of to the point of what I just said and it was like I had a lot of friends that came to my side and supported me then and more than anything I think it's like what's as you get older you kind of like distort memories
1:24:49
and now when I look back on things I had this like completely different perspective now than I did when I was a 13-year-old about like who my dad was and how he treated my mom and how she treated him and how my relationship was with him or him with my sister and and
1:25:03
so I think like after that moment moment it was just kind of like I have my family but I'm really on my own to become like be my own man and it's a weird experience not having grown up at all with anyone to be like dad look at this or like you know am I doing this right or the dad it's like hey let me
1:25:20
help you out you know with this or do that and so it's it's it's kind of like you know been probably one of the strangely better thing that's ever happened to me but also like you know I've never you know seen a functional relationship in my life which is probably Why? I'm still single. I'm still single.
1:25:38
What's What's your answer for the kindest thing?
1:25:39
The one that's coming up for me is uh my mom buying me a drum kit when I was 5 years old.
1:25:46
Do you know what it's like to buy a drum kit for a 5-year-old kid in a 130 year old house, farmhouse in Maine?
1:25:54
You're listening to some like Yeah.
1:25:58
me playing trying to learn listening to just smash drums all which I played all the way until I went to college and my mom would sit in the kitchen doing grading papers and doing stuff that she had to do for work or making dinner just like listening to it and like loved it.
1:26:13
Um and kind of like watch my whole musical journey and always supported it.
1:26:18
Um uh but yeah, crazy move for a parent.
1:26:22
um that yeah just tor tortured herself but I she she really she really loved it and she's always been a very um you know I've always been fascinated with business and with music and when I wanted to go to college for for business.
1:26:37
She really discouraged me from choosing a path that didn't include music in some way and it ended up that way. So thanks mom.
1:26:49
Well, your guys' story is one of my favorites at this intersection of two of my favorite things, music and business.
1:26:55
And I am so excited by the next chapter of what it might become and what it might look like and can't wait to watch.
1:27:01
Thanks for doing this with me. Hell yeah. This is an honor. Thanks for having us. Yeah.