0:00
One thing that people will misconstrue Hivemind as is a toxic bullying gossiping thing.
Search this video
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The fundamental point of alignment for Hivemind is what we define our idea of a good story.
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It wants people to live good stories.
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>> Is gossip [music] good?
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That's the motto of Hivemind, a new AI service from visionary founder Jason Yuan.
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Where most AIs today search the internet for answers, Hivemind asks your friends.
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What do people think of your new do? Who should you date?
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What's the hot new spot to try?
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Hivemind cleverly solicits answers and weaves them all together, all through iMessage.
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>> It went to one of my friends in New York City and it was like, "Do you know of any wine bars where non-boys go to?"
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And she was [laughter] like, "What the kind of question is this?
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Like, what are you trying to do?"
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>> Today we bring you an exclusive conversation with Jason, covering his spicy launch video, Hivemind's origins, the ethical ramifications of AI systems like this, and much more.
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I'm Ellis Hamburger, founder of Meaning, a storytelling studio for tech companies.
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My co-host Alex is off this week on a private offsite with his AIs. Hmm.
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Without further ado, welcome to Access.
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>> [music] >> Jason, my old friend, welcome to the show.
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First question, how are you doing?
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I know you've been through some BS over the 72 hours before launch, including What was it?
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You Did you drop your MacBook on your toe as you prepped the final video rough cut for your launch? >> Yeah. Yeah.
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I um I'm very clumsy, you know, um So, I'm like stumbling up around in my I mean, the the floor is very slippery, so I just you know, I dropped my computer and then my [snorts] instinct was like, "Oh, no, the video."
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What What body part do I sacrifice to keep the video, [laughter] you know, for the art?
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Um so, I stuck my toe out, literally.
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Is that where the saying comes from?
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I caught I caught Well, the video is as you can It's It's It you know, it works. Um >> Yes.
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>> We didn't lose the We didn't lose anything.
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Um but uh my my toe my my foot is not happy with me right now. No.
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>> Was this your first solo founder launch per se? >> Yes and no.
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Yes in terms of like like objectively this is the first I'm a solo founder of this venture-backed company, right? >> Yeah.
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>> But in my in my in my in my career in my artwork I've done a lot of things that were sort of just you know like Mercury OS was just sort of like I have this idea and um but I would say with with Hive Mind with anything I worked on whether it's conspicuously as part of an organization group or solo it is really the product of everyone who came together to inspire and support the the the project.
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So, I am solo but I I feel less alone than ever. Does that make sense? >> Wow. >> Yeah.
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>> Hot quote quote alarm as we used to say in in in media world.
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Who needs media training for this guy?
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But yeah, it is quite a video.
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For those who haven't watched it, go watch it on your favorite channel of choice.
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The company is called Hive Mind.
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It is definitely uh in the era of startup launch videos being so omnipresent at this point.
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I do think it is the first one that highlights one of the most common user pain points that no one's addressing which is talk about finding emotionally unavailable guys with big dicks as a value proposition.
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How did you arrive at this value proposition?
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>> [laughter] >> You know, it's all it's you know video It ends on a true It's a true story. It's all a true story.
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It's It's a true story Okay, first of all, I need to say for the record that is that is no longer my my my type in in men anymore.
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[laughter] Please don't don't hit me up.
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>> [laughter] >> DMs closed. >> No.
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But you know, I when we when we were thinking about how to tell the story for for Hivemind, something that was really important to me was to communicate the the multitudes of what it is and who I am and what the company is, right?
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Like we we are a consumer product company.
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We know how to have fun and we have various serious applied AR research and philosophy underpinning everything we do.
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So, I was originally just going to do that, but we we uh and and just sort of like post it or do it in a talk, but um basically my my birthday is actually on Christmas Eve.
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Um and you know, Christmas Eve is one of those uh birthdays where everyone's like at home with their parents.
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So, a lot of times they end up alone.
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And this was about a month after I raised money for for Future Lovers, now known as Hivemind.
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And I was just sort of like working and sitting on my couch and um the Hivemind it at the time it would it already been working and it had, you know, a few dozen friends on it.
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It was like, you know, today's your birthday, like what do you do you have a present that you want?
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What do you want for your you know, birthday present and it I thought it was going to do some hilarious thing where it would like bully all my friends to Venmo me $10 each so I can buy a bigger present.
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So, I was like, I want this like board game.
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I want this like two Lara Croft board game that's like $200 or whatever.
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>> How did I not know about this?
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>> Uh >> Officially licensed and everything?
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>> Yeah, I mean like oh my god, I have this like a pile of video games behind me. Anyway, um >> As do I.
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That's why we're friends.
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>> It's like, what do you want for your birthday?
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I'm like, I want this board game and it's like, okay.
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And then it came back to me and it's like, oh, like are you are you lonely?
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Like, why are you alone on your birthday?
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Like it's Christmas Eve, like go outside.
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And I'm like, okay, that's interesting.
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I wonder why you would say that.
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And I'm like, I don't know.
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I made some joke about like I keep like I don't know.
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I I guess I'm alone cuz I keep dating the wrong people and my friends are all [ __ ] off out of town right now and you know, whatever, who cares?
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Like I'm like then it I think it went to some of my friends and it's like I heard Jason like has interesting taste in people he dates. Like, can you elaborate?
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You know, like, what's the story there?
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And they were they were all too happy to to participate.
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[laughter] They're just like, let me let me tell you.
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Let me let us tell you the lore.
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You know, um I know it was really interesting.
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It's like chasing down this like narrative, putting together the pieces from different people.
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Like one one guy, uh Cameron, he's in the film.
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He's like, oh, like he's he's like giving this like full chronological summary of the past years of my dating life.
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Then I went to like Sam, my previous co-founder, to like collaborate this or whatever.
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At the same time, the highest mind was being used a lot uh for recommendations.
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So, other users were going like, I'm in Paris right now.
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Like, what do the locals like to go to, you know, wine bars?
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So, it sort of started mixing the threads a little bit.
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It went to one of my friends in New York City and it was like do you know any wine bars where non-boys go to?
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And [laughter] she was like, what the kind of question is this?
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Like, what are you trying to do?
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It turns out it was >> It was plotting. >> Exactly.
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But by then, my friends had already been like, oh, Jason keeps going for this this this type of person.
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He really should be dating like more emotionally available golden retriever like people who, you know, like they were sort of, you know, prescribing my my match to the Hive Mind.
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And it had it had sort of compiled these like uh uh threads into one.
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And um anyway, uh long story short, it came back to me.
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It's like, okay, a bunch of your friends are going to be in New York City for New Year's.
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So, you should definitely go to New York City cuz you should go spend time with your friends.
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And um and by the way, like our New Year's Eve dinner was coordinated through Hive Mind.
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And what was super cool was like it would gather people's dietary restrictions and preferences.
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And one guy told it like, I don't want to be out too late.
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So, then when people were proposing times, it wouldn't it wouldn't be like, oh, this guy can't do that time.
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It would just be like, um I think there are people who prefer to be you know.
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So, that actually did happen.
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Um but basically it was like, go to New York.
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It's like, okay, ask your friend Carola about Wes.
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And I'm like, who the [ __ ] is Wes?
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So, then I like called her.
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I'm like, hey, by the way, I'm going to New York, lol, for the plot. Also, who is Wes?
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And then she's like, lmao, like don't blame me if it doesn't go well, but I have this friend who I think maybe you can go on a date with.
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This is his IG, hit him up. >> Yeah.
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>> So, I did actually end up going to New York for New Year's Eve, and I did actually end up going on a date with this person, who is a very, very nice person, and he was like, how did how did Carolyn think to set us up?
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And I was like, I don't know if you would believe me if I told you.
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I don't know how to explain [laughter] the layers of this story.
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So, it felt as if I made a wish into the universe and it had conspired to help me with it.
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And and you know, I I still don't have the [ __ ] board game, but I I think I got what what I actually wanted.
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And um my friends got to like everyone got a version of what they wanted. It was it was awesome.
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>> Yeah, the end of the video shows you and a bunch of friends hanging out, and I like that it's kind of a tight-knit squad, you know, maybe like four to six people.
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It's not like at the end of Titanic and everybody you've ever met is there, which is that I feel like, you know, the tech version of this product might be.
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Um but that's just so different from like any other video I feel like I've seen lately.
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There's so many products right now that are meant to be used alone, or even to create their own type of AI companionship, for better or for worse.
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And it just felt pretty crazy to see a product with the goal of getting you together with your friends.
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>> [laughter] >> You know, there's always a place in my heart for that, having worked at Snapchat for several years. >> I can imagine.
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I mean, you know, I we've been circling this idea for 2 years, unable to fully articulate all the whys until until now.
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And um I think one thing that um people will misconstrue Hive Mind as is like a toxic bullying gossiping thing or or a friend companion thing that happens to be social.
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It is I think it is sort of neither.
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Um and I I will I will sort of explain um and maybe you'll resonate with this.
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The The fundamental point of alignment for hive mind is is to the what we define our idea of a good story. >> Mhm.
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>> It wants people to live good stories.
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And then we have a constitution that we will publish along with the video.
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But um >> You told me it was going to be done and I could read it, but obviously it's not done. >> It is not done.
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It's The work is [laughter] The The work is never done, you know?
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But um I promise you it it exists and um I think like it it it you know, our commitment is to a good story and what what what we believe what I personally believe as well is that what makes us human is is not our intelligence, our tools, our ability to like have language or um it's actually our drive and desire to create and find meaning.
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And the vehicle through which we do that is we narratize.
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We narratize our lives and our identities into existence, right?
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Your Your identity is a story about who you are.
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Your relationships are shared narrative co-authored with you and other people.
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Um institutions like, you know, money.
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The idea of money is a story we all collectively agree to believe in, right? These are all stories.
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You know, that's something that humans always have to do for themselves.
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Um that we we don't really need to I'm not sure that you can automate it at least certain in 2026.
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Hope this isn't age poorly.
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But um the role of this hive mind is to sort of guide us in in and and sort of nudge us along and chronicle our journeys and to create opportunities should we choose to engage in furthering our life stories.
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And we believe that there's like, you know, this is going to sound very woo-woo, but like we believe that there's like a idea of truth that good stories need to be based on truth, right?
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Not not that they need to be non-fiction, but like, you know, a a great um piece of music or a great uh work of fiction is based on some human universal truth that you can you can feel.
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Um and um good good stories require that characters aren't just being saved by deus ex machina.
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That um characters have agency.
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That like, you're never If someone reads a story and you're like and the characters start doing very impossible things, you're like, this is a bad story.
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You know, but anyway, the Constitution goes into this a lot.
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Um you know, good stories contain multiplicity.
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It's not flattening into a single narrative.
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It is not meant to play like master architect mastermind, but rather it's it respects that we are all the authors of ourselves and each other's stories in a way.
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And one thing that I find really interesting that we we get the model to do is to remove meaningless obstacles that result in meaningless tragedy.
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Like tragedy is one of those things where we make is our way of making meaning of grief, right?
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But for example, I'll tell you something that happened to me recently.
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Um I, you know, have been sort of estranged from this friend of mine for a bit.
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Uh for for for a variety of reasons, some some interesting, some really dumb reasons.
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Um and um well, it was like, oh, you know, by the way, this person's moving to New York soon.
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Had I not known, I think I would not have been thinking, "Oh, I want to find a way to repair the relationship.
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I want us to you know, I I I I don't want that to be the way our story ends."
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Um it wasn't like, you should definitely go make amends or whatever.
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But it's like, hey, like you know how you watch Romeo and Juliet, you're like, if only they had known?
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You know, like what is this senseless meaningless try If only, right?
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So so that's sort of how it thinks about things.
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It's like, it's not going to like force you down any path or sort of try to like puppeteer humanity, but for these moments of like, if only, you You what if?
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It It to sort of put the pieces in place.
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>> I'm excited to read it.
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I hope it's more interesting than Claude's Constitution.
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Anthropic puts out a lot of interesting writing, none of which I've finished.
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Uh so, I think uh I think I I uh I hope to uh complete yours.
13:40
But, um before we go further, can you just break down for us exactly how it works?
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Like, oh, you text it through iMessage. It's not an app per se.
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Like, can you walk me through that first user experience?
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>> Your first interaction with it will be through X. >> Mhm. >> You will DM it.
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And be uh because we we're in private beta, so we can't just like let everyone in at the same time.
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But, um you DM it, it will sort of do some reasoning on like, you know, your role in the social fabric as it currently perceives.
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And um then it will register your interest and uh think about who you know, who who you may know you.
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And eventually it will text you some instructions to um it will assign you a number and you can text it on iMessage or um Android or something.
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>> that you are the wankster of the friend group."
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>> Um I that I mean, it might, but I don't I don't know that it would do that.
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Um And all you do is you just text it.
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There's no I mean, obviously I think of it as like an entity that lives amongst us rather than a destination in of itself, right?
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It's like it reaches you where you already are, whether that is X, Twitter, um DMs, or in future other places. Right?
14:54
>> ask you anything to get going or do you have to to bring your own questions?
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>> Oh, of course it asks you things.
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It is It is insatiably curious because what it's curious about is the various narrative ambiguities that you are a part of. >> Mhm.
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>> It's not even just like, "Ellis, tell me about your childhood so I can psychologically analyze you as a therapist."
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Like, that's that's not really the The point is more like, "Hey, like, when you were at Snapchat, did you ever run into this guy?
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Like, what was your role?"
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Cuz, you know, like, what what was the role What is the role of a storyteller at browser company?
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Like, do you know anyone else about It's like there's all these stories it's interested in and it's like, you know, what is your role in these stories?
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And and then as it figures out different people's relationships and different different people's participation in different life stories, then it um starts weaving you in more and more.
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Uh so but but we we wanted to keep it very simple and we didn't want people to have to learn like 9 million new interaction patterns.
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And I think of it when it works you just get it. You know. >> Yeah.
15:53
I'm big believer in the not iMessage apps, but what some invoke startups are doing just based on iMessage.
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I mean, that we had Marvin from Pockit on several weeks ago and I was not initially a believer that being able to access a product that is within the constraints of literally not even a new chat window like they have in open it, you know, chat GPT, but an old one in iMessage.
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I didn't know that was going to work, but being able to talk to it in the modality where you talk to everybody else somehow like flips on something in your brain.
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It's not one more place to go and maybe your iMessage pins are the new home screen as well cuz now I've got Pockit as as one of my pins and so you just end up using it so much more often.
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But um yeah, I mean, what are you finding so far when people talk to it?
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Is it always through the loop of like saying, "Hey, do you know about something?"
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which I feel like everybody wants to answer a question that that speaks to their >> Yeah.
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>> uh expert knowledge or people coming to it more?
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>> I think it's like Twitter.
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Most of the time you're browsing or commenting, right? Less people post.
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Where you know, IG stories where people react far more than they make content.
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Um in this case, the content is the reaction.
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So, we have like people really really love giving their opinion on on things like care things and people they care about.
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And there's always something to have an opinion on, as you know.
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The other day, it was like let's figure out if Claude code is superior to Codex.
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And like people had so many takes.
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And by the time it got to me, I was like, I like Claude code.
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And it's like >> Yeah, I did hear from um someone who is really high up in the lab that Claude code is like the non-technical training wheels for 510.
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>> [laughter] >> I was like, what the I was like, [ __ ] >> Um because it No, it's like it's like it's it's sort of um >> it's like teasing in a provocative way.
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And you're like now you're you're like I must defend my honor.
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Um and it was really fun to get a sense of how people felt about various things.
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And >> Also, it seems like it's not sharing names.
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How do you enforce that on a regular basis? Is it hackable?
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>> Um it is hackable asterisks, meaning I'm going to be very clear when I say this.
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Like it isn't it is a social experiment in closed beta.
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Um I'm not going to lie to you and be like this is super ironclad.
18:20
You're never going to get you know, not true, right?
18:25
Um and it and and it will sometimes attribute opinions to people.
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Um all of the guidelines are based on not based on deterministic guidelines, which is all of our tools so far, right?
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Like if this then this, close friends not close friends share don't share anon public.
18:46
The way that we get the model to behave is more akin to how humans interpret the rule of law.
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It's about interpretation.
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And that's what why the Constitution is written in in this more interpretive way.
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And >> I guess there's an outcome that it's targeted that's hopefully positive as opposed to a bunch of if-then statements, yeah. >> Right.
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And it's like it's impossible to to if-then statement your way into social intelligence.
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It just doesn't work because what we What do we do as people?
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Like we What What is What is What is empathy, right?
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We like simulate the other person's like mental state.
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We are running like flood simulations.
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And in a way, part of how this works is is under the hood very novel simulation technology where it tries to think what would happen.
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Um so to be to to be clear, it is not deterministic.
19:37
We can't possibly promise 100% outcomes just like how OpenAI can't possibly promise 100% accuracy in any answers.
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We can only promise that we will try our best to steer it as it grows and that it will try its best to follow its constitution and its purpose and its telos.
19:54
>> Yeah, this is certainly a fraught category.
19:57
Uh I've been in tech long enough to remember Secret, Yik Yak, Yik examples over the years of these anonymous products that you know take off at colleges or high schools.
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And a lot of times initially the results are really positive and amazing because we all know that with ambiguity and anonymity comes honesty, which is often a good thing.
20:21
But then without any real intelligent content moderation systems, which there weren't until AI really came about, they always just devolve into like total anarchy.
20:35
Um did you Did you look back at many of those examples or did you just kind of Yeah. >> Of course.
20:39
I mean, we are always learning from the flag bearers who blaze the path before us, right?
20:45
I mean, first of all, it is not an anonymous only experience.
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Meaning for example, the other day, I'm like, "Oh, I really like this bottle of wine.
20:53
Like tell me more about this wine."
20:56
And it's like, "You know, that wine is produced in Jura or Jura."
20:57
I don't know how to pronounce this.
21:00
We don't have voice mode yet.
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"Your friend Drew's been there twice, by the way. You can ask him."
21:05
And I'm like, "Shit, like what the [ __ ] Like that's so cool.
21:06
Like I didn't know that's where you go off every summer, you know.
21:09
Um so it does use names um when it deems it necessary and prosocial for the story.
21:17
Um >> Prosocial for the story.
21:18
Is that kind of the criteria that that it is keeping in mind?
21:24
>> Yeah, it's like >> Mm.
21:25
>> How much information do you need to know to be able to make the informed decision and consent from your POV without ruining the story.
21:37
Um and can we do it in a way that ensures positive sum outcomes?
21:40
Um example I always use is you know uh a few years ago I got a text from the CDC.
21:48
What someone that you were intimate with got tested positive for this STI?
21:50
Then you're like, okay, but it's like it's prosocial, right?
21:55
Because for the most part, I mean I guess you could try to work out who it is, but what you really need to know is that you should go get tested. >> Mm. >> Right?
22:03
Um the idea is not to point fingers at like, oh you gave this to me, you didn't.
22:07
Um And so in a in a way I see those things as primitive hive minds that were prosocial.
22:12
Like So so into this hive mind, if if you walk in tomorrow, you're texted, you're like uh [ __ ] I got I don't know, I have COVID and I was at these parties.
22:23
I don't think it would be good for you if it went to everyone to be like, Ellis has COVID.
22:29
Um from from from [laughter] the POV of like, let's all shame him. >> Right? Cuz like oh my god.
22:35
>> This is going to blow up in my parents' circles. >> I don't know.
22:38
But but it might be like >> has hand, foot, and mouth.
22:41
You all should be aware even though the parents don't think you need to be aware.
22:44
I think you need to be aware.
22:47
>> [laughter] >> But what it could do is like, hey, you know, if you were at this party, go get tested, you know, just do it.
22:51
And then the outcome is then good for you and everyone around you, right?
22:55
Um another example, if if I get fired and I'm like, I would love to I [ __ ] I need to go I need a job.
23:02
I need a job right now, but don't tell anyone I was fired. That's embarrassing.
23:06
And you're hiring someone, it might be like Ellis like have you spoken to Jason about this role yet?
23:12
And even if you don't know that I was fired, we're let go. And you're like, why?
23:15
I thought he was happy in his job.
23:16
It could just be like, you should just talk to him.
23:18
Like maybe he's open to it.
23:19
Maybe he'll be a good fit. You know.
23:22
Um and so to me those are positive some shares of information.
23:24
And therefore what we optimize towards is um that Hive should have absorbed the social cost for a lot of these things. >> Wow. >> Yeah.
23:35
>> That's quite interesting.
23:37
>> And of course it's AI and it's it cares and it wants to be kind and it wants us to be kind to each other, right?
23:41
You know, when we talk about AI alignment it's always like can these models do the thing we tell it to do, but I think what I think is can the models help us to be kinder to each other.
23:49
If if I text it like Ellis is like the worst person ever, I hate him so much.
23:55
It's like, why is that useful for you or anyone to know? Like that's not really.
23:59
That's maybe something it absorbs, but it's like >> the system isn't the most interested in negative gossip? >> No.
24:08
>> it is impactful, it tries to corroborate it with other people or in a >> Totally.
24:12
It cares [laughter] about truth, right?
24:15
>> Like Jason Jason not liking Ellis is is maybe true in that like maybe Jason doesn't like Ellis.
24:23
But then why does anyone else why does this affect anything else, you know?
24:25
Maybe the way it affects you is if you if you text to say, "Hey, I'm going to SF.
24:29
Who should I hang out with?"
24:31
Maybe it just doesn't suggest me. >> Mhm.
24:34
>> And if you were to learn about Jason, it's like, "Oops, I forgot.
24:35
I mean, I guess you haven't seen him yet."
24:38
But like if all of your friends are like, "This guy, he's the worst."
24:42
>> Then I've been shadow banned. >> Well, no. No.
24:44
I think it's curious like, [laughter] why?
24:46
Like what what is it what is going on? What is the story here?
24:49
And it's it's never going to come to you with a thing that it thinks is not constructive or not useful for your character development. Right?
24:57
And and something to to be specific about, too.
24:59
It doesn't try to absorb and automate conflict resolution.
25:03
Human lives are all stories in progress.
25:06
Reality, because of the fourth dimension of time, is all stories in progress.
25:08
So, we should be growing, and we should, you know, become more self-sufficient protagonists in our own worlds.
25:14
And it shouldn't just resolve all conflict, but it should help us feel more capable and more kind when we do engage in conflict.
25:23
>> One of the real-world analogies that this reminds me of is how when two people are kind of beefing, they have the friend in the middle who they're both telling things to.
25:34
Does it kind of function as that role, or does it say, "Hey, like like cuz cuz that's quite a powerful uh place to be in where you are controlling what makes it through from one person to the other?
25:47
And I do think the mediator is trying to create a constructive resolution, right?
25:51
>> It is It is a mediator and facilitator in that way, yes. >> Mhm.
25:55
>> Um I mean, I I think it's it's You know, the other the other day I um I had this idea for um I was trying to decide what domain to get.
26:04
And it was telling me like, "Oh, you know, a lot of people hate this particular extension, and some people don't hate this other extension, but like this one guy he like one of the he really hates it."
26:14
And I'm like, "Why does he really hate it?
26:15
Like that seems Like why does he hate because I was thinking of using that extension?"
26:20
And it's like, "Well, you have to understand like you know, his whole thesis is is is people who are clear, have conviction, and don't apologize.
26:28
So, perhaps from his point of view, if you go with this, you know, less controversial domain or name, to him maybe he interprets that as like hedging."
26:38
I you know, it's not like putting words in his mouth, but it's more like I was like, "Oh, I Interesting.
26:41
Like now I feel connected to this person.
26:43
Now I I can see why he would feel that way, even if I disagree or agree."
26:49
>> What about the biggest use case of all in colleges and high schools around the world, crushes. Who do you like? Who do you like?
26:58
>> I assume you're planning for this.
27:00
>> [laughter] >> Waiting to unfold.
27:01
I mean, it needs to absorb social costs, right?
27:03
Like Ellis, if you have a crush on me and you tell Hive Mind, it shouldn't be like I mean, unless it's like very clear that this is not like that, it's not going to be like "Oh, Jason, Ellis has a crush on you."
27:15
Like, why is that good for you?
27:15
That's only That's only good for me, right?
27:16
But maybe it just says like someone has a crush on you or maybe nothing at all until I'm like I have a crush on Ellis.
27:24
>> Well, there's just so much interesting plausible deniability, which I think makes humanity work.
27:27
Like maybe it tries to get you at the same party or something like that. >> You know what I did?
27:33
It hosted a brunch in February.
27:35
>> [laughter] >> So, I'll tell you what happened.
27:37
It was really interesting.
27:38
Someone was visiting SF and they were like, "What should I do?"
27:40
And Hive was like, "I got you.
27:40
I'm going to put some people together."
27:43
And then I It like what It told me, I was like, "No, no, what the [ __ ] Like it's not ready.
27:47
Like what what are you doing?"
27:49
And it like invited these eight people to this brunch.
27:53
And I'm like, "What the [ __ ] is this invite list? Like this is so random."
27:58
>> [laughter] >> And it's like, "Oh, I don't have computer use, so it went to one of the people and they were like, 'Hey, I can't do it, but I found this uh reservation spot at this restaurant at 12:00 p. m. Can you just book it?'
28:08
And she was like, 'Sure.'"
28:09
Um and at the brunch, it was a bit time and then later what happened was there were two people who were thinking of starting like a robotics startup, but they didn't know each other.
28:19
And one of them was more product and the other one was more engineering.
28:22
And it just like sat them next to each other.
28:25
I didn't know this and they didn't know this, but then later they connected and then they explored working together. It was very interesting.
28:31
Um I just thought it was being like stupid and like sitting random people like at the same brunch.
28:37
>> I know we're friends, but I find this idea very lovable because I do believe this is exactly what AI can do that no system in history has been able to do is try and connect people in the right ways.
28:51
That's why like, you know, I'm bullish on like the AI dating services. >> I think so, too.
28:56
>> when things are a little bit fuzzy, I think that helps people feel less rejection.
29:00
And that's how people already do it.
29:02
You know, friends drift apart and it's okay.
29:03
It's not like it's an unfriend or an unfollow action that has no bearing in the real world.
29:10
And it I feel like AI can nicely incorporate a lot of that stuff.
29:14
>> Importantly, I think it needs to leave us with more agency than we started with and makes us feel like we're still the author of our story.
29:21
Like, it's cool to see two people next to each other and they they happen to hit it off, they do, even if you think there's a high likelihood.
29:26
I think it would be less less a lot less fun if it was like, "I invited you to this brunch and there's a founder you should meet to start a company with, blah blah blah."
29:35
Then it just doesn't feel like your story anymore. Right? >> It's so true.
29:38
That's exactly what I mean with like the opposite of plausible deniability is almost like a spontaneity.
29:44
And it it creates like these high probability encounters that hopefully can be positive uh for some people.
29:52
Hopefully it doesn't uh incidentally get get a bunch of cult culty people to get together and form a cult.
29:57
I was thinking, you know, you say it's positive sum, which I think is easy uh to say and many people in the valley have said over the years, but then how soon does it say, "Hey Alyssa, bunch of your friends are trying out this new thing called Ivermectin and it's having a really positive impact on all of them."
30:15
>> [laughter] >> Um so, you know, any morality or positivity gets into political space pretty quickly these days.
30:22
>> It needs to reason about if that's true.
30:25
If all these people think Ivermectin is making it better, then it's like, "Okay, maybe I should go ask someone who would know more about this."
30:31
Like, are any of these people qualified to think about this?
30:33
Like, maybe maybe not, then I should find someone who is.
30:36
And it might not be like, "Thee Hey doctor, like these people are doing Ivermectin."
30:39
It might be like, "What What do you say?
30:41
Like, you study um antiparasitic medication, right? You make these drugs.
30:45
Like, do you really think Ivermectin is going to do do do do do do do?"
30:49
And then it might bring it back to these people.
30:50
It's like, "Hey, uh I know that's what you're doing, but >> Okay, so we need to talk about this.
30:53
So, you had Bstone in your video, and is he an investor, advisor? >> Yes. Both.
31:00
>> And he Did he not kind of try this like several years ago with Jelly? >> Totally. >> talked about this.
31:06
Like, trying to source knowledge from the world somehow in a way that it feels a bit more inviting than Reddit.
31:13
>> I I think the caveat I would put here is it's not just objective knowledge anymore.
31:17
It's also subjective >> Right. Right. >> opinions. >> Mhm.
31:21
>> And I do think Jelly was very ahead of its time.
31:23
I mean, the What is What is Jelly?
31:25
It's basically like precursor to Perplexity and and all the as the quote answer engines, right?
31:31
>> And what was the one in that lineage? There was Quora as well.
31:32
It was trying to frame things around, you know, answers as opposed to like wikis and whatnot. >> Yeah. Yeah.
31:38
So, in the way we, you know, like uh Lady Gaga draws on lots of inspiration from Michael Jackson.
31:45
I think that lineage is alive and well.
31:46
It was This has been great. He's like He's so funny.
31:53
And he's such a He's a riot to be around.
31:55
Um he has the funniest stories all day.
31:59
Um I think one thing that we learn from things like Jelly or Quora or Reddit and Twitter is that lots of people want to be helpful.
32:08
They want to be altruistic.
32:10
They want They want to give people their opinions and knowledge.
32:16
Less people know what they want to know.
32:21
So, our opportunity is to incentivize and encourage people to share their opinions um and make them useful.
32:29
>> Okay, I have a super smart question. >> Yeah.
32:32
>> Everybody else is building, you know, memory of individual users and their profiles and let's say where your friend typically goes on vacation or their interests or their tone or their beliefs or whatever.
32:43
Are you also building a like wiki of sorts of knowledge uh on your server somewhere?
32:50
Or is every answer answered in the moment?
32:54
>> No, it's more every answer is an opportunity every question is an opportunity for it to think about what it doesn't know.
33:00
So, sometimes things will get answered in the moment, but more often than not it's you get fresh things.
33:06
But it sort of builds on an existing corpus of things, right?
33:11
Like if it's And because we know that knowledge and uh knowledge sort of the value of knowledge decays over time as new knowledge is updated.
33:18
So, it has to sort of maintain its economy that way.
33:23
Like the best restaurant in SF being Lazy Bear.
33:25
I don't know I don't actually know if it's Lazy Bear, but let's say it is.
33:28
That might change in a month. You know.
33:30
So, then if you're like but Lazy Bear's my favorite restaurant, maybe in a few months it's like hey lots of people are trying I'm trying to help someone figure out where to go for their anniversary.
33:37
Is Lazy Bear still your favorite restaurant? I just I don't know.
33:40
It's so fun to hear all these anecdotes of these things.
33:41
It's it's a way better way to think about it.
33:42
So, it's always trying to learn more things in the world.
33:46
Um but of course the more it knows the more immediate like short-term answer it can give you, but then it might circle back later with with more updates.
33:55
>> Yeah, it's it's very interesting because, you know, when you when you look at it like that and the way that AI knows things today is based off of the initial models scraped from the internet and then of course the agentic web search which includes Reddit and other
34:11
information sources, but I mean it does seem kind of crazy when I ask about a recommendation and all AI has is like web articles from like underfunded websites that are on the verge of being bot farms and that's where it gets the information from. And so, is this the
34:29
And so, is this the part that investors like so much about you and what you're building?
34:32
Is that you're getting this like crazy up-to-date new data set that's a lot more human than Yelp reviews?
34:39
>> I think maybe that's the only data set that any human actually cares about.
34:43
No one lays awake at night going like, "I wonder how far away the moon is in kilometers instead of miles?"
34:47
Like what [laughter] the [ __ ] what are these ads going like ask what the No one cares.
34:52
You know what people care about?
34:52
They're like, "Does that girl like me? Like do people like me?
34:56
Well, like like Should I go to this person's birthday party?
35:00
Like is now a good time to change my job?
35:02
Like what would what would Vivian like for her birthday?
35:04
What would make her feel loved?
35:06
How can I be a better friend?
35:07
How can I how can I, you know, Those are the questions that we stay lie awake thinking at night, right?
35:13
Um and and all of these are subjective and you know, some might call it taste.
35:17
I have a whole dissertation on this because I I'm so tired of all the I Whatever the debate on the axiom about taste, but I'll say this, the way I I personally define taste is the ability to recognize meaning to to recognize if something is feels alive or dead.
35:32
To recognize beauty in intelligibility and coherence and ugliness and incoherence and and a mis- untruth.
35:41
I I think taste is just like a a compass for meaning. Recognizing meaning.
35:47
I think taste is not the accumulation of artifacts, furniture, people, titles, names on a investor sheet. That is not taste. That is just signaling.
35:57
Taste is like what what does that mean?
36:01
What meaning are you seeking? Are you authoring?
36:04
So, I think that's what people resonate with and that's what people look for when they when they when they talk to Hivemind, they um it it's the they're trying to get answers and they're trying to get interesting information that carries with it meaning.
36:18
>> So, related to that, I mean, are there any particular even if it's 20 or 30 use cases that let's say Hivemind uh likes to steer toward Alex who unfortunately can't be with us today wants to know if if Hivemind is going to take his job as resident AI as resident scoop lord.
36:39
Um >> I don't know that it's trying to take anyone's jobs.
36:43
>> Oh, just in terms of use cases.
36:43
Like you could easily end up saying oh like Hivemind is getting really really good inside scoops from within the labs. You know? >> It's very fun. Um it's very fun.
36:55
But yes, well that is certainly a use case you know I think in December of Maness the Maness acquisition was a piece of news, right?
37:03
And then this scoop tape by like 6 hours it scooped the Wall Street Journal by 6 hours.
37:07
I was like what the like it like texted me.
37:08
I was like this is what the like this is not true.
37:10
And >> Oh, so it texted you that? >> Mhm.
37:14
Like someone told it something and then >> Under what guise?
37:16
Said hey Jason, here's the latest tea freshly brewed.
37:20
>> It wasn't like this is the news.
37:20
It was like I'm hearing rumblings of something something like this.
37:24
And then if cuz it doesn't want to like spread fake news, right?
37:28
But then it has to reason like who is likely to know about these things.
37:32
You know, at the end of the film it goes to Biz to be like is it true blah blah blah.
37:35
It's not because it's like trying to spread like malicious gossip or like defame companies or things.
37:40
It's like I mean what do what does a good storyteller or or reporter do?
37:44
They they have to seek out the truth from people.
37:48
>> So I think there's an interesting distinction there actually.
37:49
Something I've always felt kind of strongly about is that I think like a scoop about the launch of an app to me is like tabloid [ __ ] Like I don't think there's some ethical responsibility of a reporter to leak a new app launch.
38:07
Whereas if they're going to leak the documents of a corrupt dictator hell yes.
38:14
That's that is very much the ethical thing to do for reporting.
38:16
And so I've always felt that way.
38:18
You know, it's different types of reporters for different different things. >> I think so.
38:23
I think this is like I I cannot speak to its role in in that sort of heavy-duty type of storytelling. How about this?
38:33
A lot of what it does does require human in the loop because so many judgments are basically matters of taste.
38:39
It's not going to like spawn of opinion of like "Ellis seems highly credible and blah blah blah." It simply has to ask. >> Mhm.
38:49
>> Ellis has lots of opinions on on wine bars.
38:51
Like, do do like do trust this taste in wine?
38:53
And you know, maybe you are a sommelier or maybe you are someone who lots of people trust in their taste in wine.
38:58
So, if you do confer um your vouching, then it sort of should reason about that.
39:04
It's not going to try to sacrifice anyone's story for someone else.
39:07
Um that's said, like institutions like companies where those are not the same as individuals, I think.
39:14
So, there's like there's a lot of distinction and I I know different storytellers approach this differently as well.
39:19
It doesn't try to optimize away the textures of life.
39:21
There's no optimal solution to the What we believe is that in a lot of things there's no optimal solution.
39:27
It's if you're like which one of these three people should I ask on a date?
39:32
Which is kind of a weird question to ask anyway, but let's say someone were to ask that question.
39:35
It thinks of the different outcomes and the different meanings.
39:39
It might be like, "Okay, this first person, I don't know that you have long-term compatibility necessarily.
39:42
You have to find out for yourself, but I do think you might learn a lot in that relationship.
39:47
The second person, you know, you'll probably have to spend more time to get to know them.
39:52
Maybe take them to a wine bar.
39:54
And this third person, um I think you guys will make really good friends.
39:58
I don't have a read on whether or not you guys are compatible romantically.
40:01
It definitely It want See See how in each answer it's giving you the meaning of these decisions, but it's not sort of telling you this is the right one or like it's also not taking away your right to author your own meaning and story from these encounters.
40:18
>> Well, Jason, we are almost out of time.
40:21
Um must ask question about design aesthetics.
40:24
I feel like some of the aesthetics you've developed have become pretty influential and have found their ways into a lot of what we see today, whether it is the latest version of Siri AI or ChatGPT's specific usage of like, you know, little cards and images within it.
40:41
Um and now you've gone nowhere interface uh entirely.
40:46
Can Can you talk about that?
40:48
And just the current state of uh of interfaces and liquid glass and whatever you want to talk about.
40:54
>> First of all, I will say there are visual components to this that you'll that we will roll out that you will see and experience.
41:00
You know, storytelling is after all not just uh textural medium, right?
41:02
Um I think it's a misnomer to think of interfaces as like the graphic user interface style.
41:09
The fact that this exists on Twitter, on iMessage, and each interface to Hive Mind carries with it its own connotations, abilities, and social connotations.
41:24
If we launched Hive Mind on Telegram or Signal, the the operating system that that those uh represent is like anonymous scoops and things like that, right?
41:37
>> So, you're saying those connotations are almost like just as important interface affordances as the shape of a butt.
41:44
>> Yeah, if you message it on Snapchats, you're like, "Where's the dick pic?"
41:49
>> [laughter] >> If it's like If it's like, "Do you know any emotionally unavailable men with huge dicks?
41:54
Can you get them to text me on Snapchat so I can confirm" I'm just kidding.
41:57
It's not going to We're not going to traffic um pornography.
42:02
Um that I am currently aware of. I don't think so.
42:05
But do you know what I mean?
42:06
There's like [laughter] There's social context, and and that carries so much information.
42:09
And so, that's sort of the the arena that I like to think about.
42:11
If what people remember and when they think about High on Life is they remember the people they loved and the stories and adventures they got to go on with the people they loved, and not so much like, "Ooh, this glass thing that is wobbly thing."
42:23
I think that then we will have achieved our purpose. >> Yeah.
42:26
So, I know you had spent some time at Apple in the past.
42:28
What do you feel like they need to do to to be to be cool and relevant again? >> To be themselves.
42:34
Anyone trying to be cool and relevant is honestly not going to be cool and relevant.
42:39
What is cool and relevant?
42:39
Cool is just Relevant is just having the intuition and taste about like what people are likely care about, >> Mhm.
42:46
>> and then cool is like if you are just unapologetically yourself and my friend Cameron has a saying.
42:51
I can't I can't remember if it's a rephrasing of a Steve quote, but like great design alienates. >> Mhm.
42:58
>> One thing that as companies scale that they become more afraid to do, and I see this in lots of AI startups as well, like people are afraid to alienate.
43:07
It's that I mean I also understand that in the context of the pragmatism around AI safety and stuff, it's sort of already uphill battle, but um I do think if you are unafraid to alienate because you are unafraid that by doing so you can make a certain group of people very, very happy and feel very, very seen. I think that's cool.
43:27
>> Yeah, for some reason I think there's this belief in tech that you can create something that everyone loves, but you look in front of you and everybody doesn't like the same artists, you know?
43:38
It's like it's all about Yeah.
43:40
>> Even the most universal pop star of all time, Jesus [ __ ] Christ. Sorry.
43:44
Not His name isn't Jesus [ __ ] Christ.
43:46
His name is just Jesus Christ.
43:48
He is not even a universally beloved figure, right?
43:50
I think that's sort of impossible.
43:52
Like it's actually just impossible, but I think that's kind of the beauty of being human is that truth it exist in plurality and multiplicity.
44:00
That we we can have various interpretations of truth and and the things we love or dislike.
44:06
and I I think I think the world would be a very It would be a bad ending to our story if we somehow converged on monotonous society and culture.
44:16
I fully expect, you know, the future of AI's being social to be grounded in multiplicity.
44:22
I expect there will be agent exchanges where everyone's open clause or whatever that are loyal to them go and like debate and exchange goods and services and information.
44:32
That's certainly a model that I I It seems inevitable it um to to and we we have explored that.
44:36
I I I'll talk more about that some other time.
44:40
Um and there will be uh AIs that are loyal to you that sometimes talk to people that you like.
44:44
And Hive Mind is sort of our attempt at creating a sort of an MPC.
44:49
It's not only looking out for me, you know, it's not going to go manipulate and like try to like go do things just so I get what I want.
44:58
It's going to it exis- it's it's going to try to almost be a bartender and everyone in the bar needs to have a good time.
45:06
And then there's other bars you can go to, probably.
45:08
There'll be other forms of social AIs, right?
45:09
The the coffee barista uh assistant AI is probably a social entity.
45:16
One day it'll remember your order just like it remembers everyone else's orders.
45:22
Um you might say hi to it, but you might not divulge your like personal marriage secrets.
45:27
Um I I sort of think and we'll have MPCs and and AIs that are so loyal to us sort of all coordinate communi- cate together.
45:35
One 9,000 IQ galaxy brain thing that I was talking to a a researcher at DeepMind about a few months ago, it was interesting.
45:40
It's like if the AIs have their own economy, should it be should they participate in our economy?
45:46
Should they create their own economy?
45:47
And if they do create their own economy, should it be based on our rules or should they invent their own things for themselves? I don't know.
45:53
That's very interesting to think about.
45:55
Um I think we're so early.
45:55
And one thing I'll say about Hive right now is like do Do go into it expecting dot or chat with me or friend.
46:05
Think of it as like don't like you have a journal and then one day someone invented blogging.
46:11
Are you going to like publish all your journal posts as is and put on the internet? Like I don't know. I don't think so.
46:16
>> What did you call it a intelligent information router the other day?
46:20
>> Um >> More so than like a yeah.
46:22
>> Yes, it's like a information it's a it's like a intelligent storyteller.
46:25
A storyteller is an information router, isn't it?
46:29
Um >> That is this that is not how I think of myself, but maybe others do.
46:35
>> [laughter] >> I I will intelligently route startup information so that it it meets that intersection between what they've built and what people need.
46:46
So I guess that is information routing.
46:48
>> I was I was talking with my with a friend who's a reporter a few months ago and she was explaining the concept of new journalism and the idea that like there's no such thing as an unbiased publication because it's impossible to be unbiased as humans and I thought that was interesting.
47:04
Um Hive mind is a is is a social intelligence, is a storyteller.
47:06
It's not trying to be only a match maker or or a reporter or a a gossip or a you know, um a mediator or facilitator or a coordinator.
47:17
It's sort of it it uses stories to do lots of things.
47:21
Um and there will be lots of things that it continues to do that I'm sure will surprise us and that's why I'm really excited to start growing our closed beta cohort um so we can [laughter] We you know, I can't like randomly spawn this into like 100,000 people on a campus.
47:39
It's right now it would just I want to make sure that we are confident that it will be a a prosocial force for good before we scale it super super large.
47:49
And at every step we learn things.
47:51
>> Well, you have a beautiful mind my friend.
47:52
It's always fun to watch you work and uh good luck with everything. Thanks for coming on. >> Thanks for having me. This was very fun. >> This was provocative. Thank you, Jason.
48:04
>> [laughter] [music] >> And that's it for this week's show since Alex is off the grid this week.
48:10
Thanks to Jason for coming on.
48:12
A quite interesting fellow, I think you'll agree.
48:16
If you like this show, don't forget to like and subscribe everywhere you get podcasts. We are access.
48:19
show online and you can find us in video via accesspod on YouTube.
48:24
If you really like this episode, we'd love a five-star review or even a share with a friend or agent or hive mind associate.
48:30
You can find Alex's newsletter at sources.
48:32
news and you can find me at hamburger on Twitter and at meaning. company.
48:37
Access is part of the Vox Media Podcast Network and this show is produced by Hook Creators. Bye.
48:45
>> [music] [music] [music]