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So, the way gaslighting works is, it's a denial of a person's reality. That's step one. I never said that. That never happened.
Search this video
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It's I'm it very authoritatively saying to you something didn't happen.
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That by itself is not gaslighting.
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Now, the step two of gaslighting is The best-selling author and host of the number one health and wellness podcast with Jay Shetty.
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Hey everyone, welcome back to On Purpose, the number one health podcast in the world.
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Thanks to each and every one of you who choose to come here to become happier, healthier, and more healed.
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And I'm so grateful to our incredible audience.
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Uh it's been phenomenal to see how much you've been listening, learning, applying in your lives over the past few months.
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I love seeing the reviews.
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I love seeing all the tags on Instagram and on Twitter and the videos on TikTok.
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It means the world to me that you're also sharing and passing this forward.
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And today's guest is someone that I've known for a couple of years.
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We've interacted in some really interesting environments.
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And I have to say that whenever she speaks, I'm like, "Wow."
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Like I I'm completely in awe.
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Uh her insights are phenomenal.
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In real time, I've I've been parts of like almost group thinks.
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And whenever today's guest shares an insight or shares some wisdom or shares a perspective, it's so powerful that you know that there's years of experience, there's decades of learning that go behind it.
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And so, I feel really honored that I get to have this conversation.
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She's been once before, but we were just talking beforehand about how it was during the pandemic.
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So, that was very pandemic focused.
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But I think today's going to be really truly powerful for you.
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I'm speaking about the one and only Dr.
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Ramani, who's a licensed clinical psychologist in LA, uh a professor at California State University of LA, and the founder and CEO of Luna Education Training and Consulting. Dr.
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Ramani is an author of several books.
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I recommend them all, including Should I Stay or Should I Go, Surviving a Relationship with a Narcissist, and Don't You Know Who I Am, How to Stay Sane in an Era of Narcissism, Entitlement, and Incivility. Now, Dr.
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Ramani will be adding the role of host to her resume.
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She launches a new podcast, Navigating Narcissism with Dr.
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Ramani, a show that focuses on narcissism and its impact on relationships.
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Now, I know all of you are fascinated by relationships, narcissism, and your mind, there's no one better than Dr. Ramani. Uh Dr.
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Ramani, thank you so much for doing this.
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That's a very big introduction, so I hope I can live up to it. Uh it's true.
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I And I think we have We've been in so many rooms.
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We have a lot of mutual friends. do, yeah.
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Uh people that we work with, and I I really mean it.
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Like, I I love the way you listen, and I love the way you articulate what you're hearing and connecting and putting the dots together.
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And you're so in demand, so to actually have you here today is is really, really special.
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Uh I I wanted to start off by understanding a bit about how you came to this work, and like how narcissism be- Because today you're known as the person who knows literally everything about narcissism or is deeply studying it.
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When did narcissism become an obsession or a focus or a point of study for you?
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Sort of around 2004, 2003, thereabouts.
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And it was it was in a research capacity, looking at what was happening in healthcare settings when you had really demanding, antagonistic, uh entitled patients, and the toll that was taking in healthcare settings, which seems so obvious.
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But that led me to do a deeper dive, and I realized how little this had been researched in sort of healthcare situations.
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I was specifically working in the area of HIV, and so that started a research program.
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At that same time, I also had a clinical practice, and in my clinical practice, uh you know, more and more people were kind of coming in with the same relationship story, because I was studying narcissism in my research.
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I'm thinking, how interesting.
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Let me just shed this light on the patterns they're seeing that are quite antagonistic.
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And And that just knowing that, and they said, well, can this change?
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And the answer to that is pretty much no.
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Once they knew it couldn't really be shifted that much, it totally changed their point of view and lifted a lot of self-blame.
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So, those were the two things kind of happening, and that honestly, should I say or should I go, my first book on narcissism came from after the sessions, these clients were so overwhelmed, they'd often say, could you just put this in an email, right?
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And I really felt for them, cuz I could see it was a real real deer in the headlights experience.
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So, I'd knock out, you know, something in in an email.
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It also helped me organize my thoughts.
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And then I thought, okay, I keep writing the same email.
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So, let's just make that a book.
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So, when the world started sort of going upside down, I thought, this is interesting.
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I am going to approach this topic, because I thought, well, this is actually what's happening right now.
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And everyone was using the word.
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A lot of people weren't using it correctly.
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And that's where that came from.
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Then from there was where it got interesting was I'm a writer. That's what I do.
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But two young people approached me, former students, and had said, they were student They were finishing school at the time.
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They said, you know, you should really be on YouTube.
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And I said, that's ridiculous.
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You know, at my age, it didn't make sense.
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It wasn't how I consumed media.
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And I said, let's let's take a few months.
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Let's see what kind of how it how this space works.
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And over time, years of sort of honing it and tuning it and all of that, that was actually where all of a sudden this reach happened on this YouTube channel. So, it was an evolution.
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But what I found was where the real sort of pivot was for me, the worlds of mental health was not recognizing what was happening to people in these relationships.
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And that's when I got angry.
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And to me, anger is a great motivator.
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I thought, "These people have gone to therapists and being invalidated, and maybe it's how you communicate, and maybe you aren't trying hard enough."
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And I thought, "Oh my goodness."
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And that's really for me when it sort of felt like a revolution.
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I thought, "Something's got to give, and if this means that people are going to say, you know, "What's wrong with you?"
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And you have a target on your back.
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I mean, I've been called every name in the book, and people said, "This is an unempathic therapist. How could she?"
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And I thought, "Oh my goodness."
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Like, I thought, "People are trying to shut this discourse down through shame."
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And I thought, "Nah, let's just keep going.
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I'm old enough to not really care what people think about me anymore."
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And so, I am That's That's really where it came from.
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And now, that's just sort of the focus.
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The narcissism piece to me is interesting from a scientific framing and all of that, but the real passion for me is working with people who have been through these relationships and have never really felt recognized, seen, or heard to help them with their healing, and help them find themselves so they feel that they can stand on their own in the world and actually have their voice again. That's the mission.
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Yeah, so important and so needed.
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And I'm so glad that you're doing it.
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I feel like this is more common as an occurrence today than than than ever before.
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And do you think that's because narcissism was somewhat hidden for many years in the sense that it just happened behind closed doors?
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Or like, why is it only now that we're talking about it so much?
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That's such a good question, Jay.
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You know, and it's almost like without giving you too pedantic a history lesson, is that people have been The word narcissism in this application, like about other people, didn't really even start coming into the literature until maybe the very late 1800s, early 1900s.
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Then some psychoanalytic theorists talked about it, but it was a really quiet backwater in the world of mental health.
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Mental health and psychology are new fields.
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It wasn't even until 1980 where we saw it come the idea of narcissistic personality disorder, which is its own issue.
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This is very recent to me.
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What is that, you know, 40, not even 50 years ago.
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And so, the this People have been narcissistic since there have been people.
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And the and actually an interesting framing on it can actually come from There's fascinating work and if if you've never read it, I can't recommend this book enough.
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The book behave by Robert Sapolsky maybe one of the most extraordinary books I think has been written in the last 10 years.
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And to me Sapolsky is is a giant in in all fields related to to psychology.
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And he makes this incredible he he lays he's talking about aggression.
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Sort of why or why do people behave aggressively?
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Why do people behave badly?
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And we do know, the science has shown it, narcissism is associated with aggression and violence.
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Like This isn't just like, "Oh, these people are a handful."
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There's actually a risk here and we're not addressing this risk.
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But when you look at what he says is you look when you look at the evolution of human history, he said, "What we do see is a greater level of antagonism in people who came more from cultures where they were hurting.
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Hurting animals, goats, whatever, cows. Why?
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Cuz you could steal those things.
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But people who are pastoralists, people who farmed, you really can't go get up and steal a field.
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I guess you could steal some of the ears of corn, but you're not going to make off with the whole field.
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Farming is more collaborative, hurting is more individual.
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So, if you go back and that is we're talking hundreds if not thousands of years of human history, how people sort of interacted through the world economically.
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You look at history lessons.
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I remember as my daughter was taking world history, we had a very long drive to school.
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So, I said, "Why don't you teach me what you learned on the way to school?"
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She'd study, I'd learn something.
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But what I thought over and over again over 500 years of world history, lot of drives over many years, is that what we were seeing is that these people who are in the history books were all very antagonistic.
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They were all very narcissistic.
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They didn't have empathy. They were arrogant. They were aggressive. They were controlling. They lacked empathy. They had to be the hero.
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Like it was always the same story.
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So I actually think narcissism, narcissistic relationships, all of this has been around since time immemorial.
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It was only because psychology is a field in its relative infancy that we're only talking about it in this way now and it is only in the last 15 years that we have actually started paying attention to the harm this personality style does to the other person in a relationship.
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It's incredible, isn't it?
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When you look at it from that perspective about how long people have suffered from or suffered with something because our learning was still catching up with its experience.
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And you think about anyone who hasn't lived in the last 15 to 25 years, they potentially were called names, outcast, misunderstood, unheard, unseen, as you're saying.
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Absol- I mean, Jay, I have worked with clients who are older.
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Okay, so they've been in 30, 40, 50-year marriages that have been difficult from the very, very beginning.
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And they said, "You know what?
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It wasn't until I watched your videos.
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It wasn't until I read your book.
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It wasn't until the last 5 to 10 years that this finally had a name.
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And until then, I assumed it was my fault.
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I wasn't trying hard enough. I was complaining.
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I was being unrealistic about what a marriage should look like."
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That's what they were They were basically, in essence, turning it back on themselves, blaming themselves, and culture wasn't helping.
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You know, people were saying, "Well, I guess you're not Marriage is tough.
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You have to make compromises.
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That's just how they are. They don't mean it.
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Their bark is worse than their bite.
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And so, people would internalize that.
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And if you really want to look at it this way, even historically, we didn't really start talking about domestic violence until the late '60s into the 1970s.
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That's when Lenore Walker made the whole sort of, you know, the the circle of um abuse in a in a relationship and all of that. This is all new.
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And that was in the '70s.
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To this day, we still do not accord emotional abuse the same level as we do physical abuse.
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And yet, I've got to tell you, everyone who's physically abused is emotionally abused.
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But emotional emotionally abused people are showing up with the same level of symptomatology, often the same level of post-traumatic kinds of um decrements in functioning, you name it.
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So, we're see it is this is all slowly evolving.
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Interestingly, the the field of mental health is still slow to catch up.
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That's something that's got to change. Yeah, absolutely.
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No, I'm so glad we're having this conversation.
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And thank you for letting us go on a history lesson, because I think it's really important, quite frankly, to understand to really get context of of where we are.
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Seeing as you said these words are thrown around now and they're also everywhere, and you've probably done this a million times, but for our audience, could you please define narcissism and then narcissistic personality disorder?
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Because I do feel now, as you said, a lot of people are using this on a daily basis.
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And while it's healthy that our language is evolving, I do often find that people also get wrongly labeled or early labeled or whatever it may be. I totally agree.
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And this is a big problem, struggle, call it what you will, is that so, narcissism's a personality style, okay?
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So, if a personality style could be anything, including narcissism, agreeableness, introversion, neuroticism, those are all personality styles, right?
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So, narcissism's on the shelf with them.
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Now, we would view narcissism, which sits under a bigger umbrella called antagonism, as a more maladaptive style because their behavior can often put them at odds with other people.
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Things like the entitlement, the arrogance, the manipulativeness, the grandiosity.
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These are sort of really uncomfortable patterns. That's narcissism, okay?
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Now, when we jump the rails to narcissistic personality disorder, it's a whole different game.
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The reason people really get kind of a bee in their bonnet about this needs to be diagnosed by a licensed mental health practitioner is because in order for a person to be diagnosed with a mental illness, not only do they have to have a laundry list of whatever is associated with that, whether it's depression, anxiety, schizophrenia, bipolar disorder, substance use disorders, doesn't matter.
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Personality disorders are the same.
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So, you have to have that list. And, this is the ringer.
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You have to be able to show that that person is either experiencing something we call subjective distress, meaning that they're uncomfortable, or social and occupational impairment, meaning that their life is kind of getting wrecked by this, and they're aware of it.
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It's a lot of awareness and discomfort that many people who are narcissistic don't have.
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In fact, they're kind of sitting on top of the world.
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They got a partner, they got a side piece, they've got a they've got money, they've got success, they've got power.
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They're thinking, "I ain't got no problems."
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Now, they're burning down everyone around them, but you cannot diagnose someone because someone else is unhappy with their behavior.
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That's not what our diagnostic systems were designed to do.
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So, when we get into these antagonistic disorders, like narcissistic personality disorder, it's pretty rare that people with these personalities get into treatment.
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And when they do, it's for some other reason.
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Their marriage is blowing up.
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They're sub They're using substances.
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In some cases, they're depressed.
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Something's gone wrong at work.
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They've been involved in something sort of publicly that makes them look bad, so they go to therapy to save face.
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So, the thing that gets them into therapy is not like, "Uh I've noticed I don't have much empathy and I'm really entitled and arrogant.
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I'm looking for help with that." Said no one ever. Right. Okay?
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So, what they're coming in with something else.
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Often very arrogantly, like, "Okay, I see your fancy certificates on the wall, Doc.
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So, how long's it going to take you to fix me?
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I'm paying a lot for your time."
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Very dismissive, very arrogant.
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Now, every so often you'll see an a narcissist And not every so often, not uncommonly in people who have narcissistic personality disorder, they may also have something else going on, like depression or anxiety.
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Or like I said, a substance use disorder.
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The therapist is going to focus, as we do, on the more acute issue, the depression, the anxiety, substance use disorder.
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And they'll try to manage that, right?
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Through combination of therapy, maybe medication, whatever they use.
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Time goes on, the mood's lifting a little, or the anxiety's managed, or they're sober, but they're still really awful and entitled and arrogant and all this other stuff.
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And because a lot of therapists don't bring personality stuff into the room, they don't think about it, they're thinking, "Well, maybe I'm not doing this right.
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This person still is not Like, it's They're still not behaving nicely, but they're not using any more, and they seem to be Their sleep seems to be better."
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And so, you See what I'm saying?
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Is the personality's like the baseline.
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It's the thrum under the other stuff that's happening on top. That's the disorder.
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A person You have a personality. I have a personality.
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For example, I'm introverted, okay?
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Believe it or not, I'm an incredibly introverted person. That is my personality.
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It is not going to change.
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Next week, I am not going to be the life of the party, okay?
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On any given Saturday night, I tell you the probability is I am home reading a book, watching TV, or doing something ridiculous at home. But I'm at home, okay? I can't change that.
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If you said to me, "Oh, come on, Dr.
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Ramani, we're going to make you extroverted."
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I'd be like, "No, you're not."
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And And if you said, "But you have to become extroverted."
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I might be able to stretch myself, but I'll collapse, or I'll be exhausted, or You know what I'm saying? So, that's personality. It is who we are.
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It's a psychological fingerprint of sorts.
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But it's always right under the surface.
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So, you're not going to make the introvert an extrovert.
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You're not going to make the neurotic person more sort of um relaxed and impulsive.
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You're not going to take a conscientious person and turn them into someone who is sort of acts out, impulsive, and doesn't plan.
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These personalities sort of set who we are.
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And so, this is the In the case of people who have narcissistic personalities, they have very disagreeable personalities.
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They have antagonistic personalities. That's the difference.
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And so, before people say it, I'm like, I'll say, "Does this person have a lack of empathy? Are they entitled?
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Do they seek validation?"
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Sometimes people say, "Well, I think he's narcissistic cuz he cheated on me."
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I'm like, well, he cheated on you. That's all I got here.
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I don't know if this dude's narcissistic.
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You'd have to tell me a little bit more about this person's behavior.
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And I think people are using this as a buzzword to to label or or talk about someone who did something that aggravated them.
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And you got to remember, narcissism's not a one-off, okay?
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So, if one day someone did something like they're having a bad week, but in general, they're a very even-tempered, warm, compassionate, kind, mindful, um self-aware person.
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That's who they are most of the time.
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But then, 20 things are going wrong.
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Parent is sick, child is sick, job is going badly, and they're a little bit more short-fused.
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But they're even saying, "I am not at my best. I am so sorry. Cut me a wide berth.
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You know, I I'm so so and they're very aware that they're not behaving well.
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They may they're not they're not behaving well in that case isn't narcissism.
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It may just be a bad week.
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That's such a great uh explanation and I hope everyone who's listening and watching I hope that's giving you real context and a wider perspective on on how this all fits together.
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Thank you so much for that.
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Genuine masterclass as I guess.
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Where I want to start is do we do we have any understanding or how much is our current understanding on how people end up with a narcissistic personality?
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Because I think that's healthy for people to have context over too.
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Like you said, like whatever personality we are, we can't change that core root base of it.
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So it's worth knowing how we ended up there because again, whether we're parents, whether we're thinking of being parents, whether we're navigating the world and concerned about ourselves or someone in our life, it helps us understand what are some of those facets or elements that brought people into being narcissist as a personality. Right.
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So this is where it gets interesting, right?
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So personality is a funny little thing where it's it's there's a little bit of a genetic piece to it and that genetic piece is something we call temperament, okay?
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So we all have temperaments and we see it even in babies.
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Some babies you hold them in their arm your arms they soothe like this. They're easy. They're smiley.
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They're often they're just content, you know, and they and they're often kind and even as soon as that point where they're sort of aware of who other people are when toddlerhood they come into preschool age, they're very aware.
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They'll take their cookie.
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They'll split it in half.
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There's some kids like that, right?
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Then there are those kids who no matter what you do they arch their back and they cannot be soothed and they're and they always need attention and they always want attention and they're mean to their siblings and they take not only the one cookie, but they take all the cookies, right?
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That stuff that biological stuff is foundational in many ways to our personalities.
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I'd say to everyone, if you have access to anyone who knew you early in life, see how well like they describe your infancy or your toddlerhood and how well it tracks to who you are now.
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Every so often as a shrink I get to talk to like a parental figure in that person's life. Never been wrong yet.
21:21
Every time that baby temperament, toddler temperament tracks into I'm sure you were a sweet baby. I am so sure.
21:30
I called her mom she'd say Jay is the sweetest little baby in the Doesn't everyone say that about their kids? No. Oh my god, no. They'll say oh this one.
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You know, I definitely not and I was a super super super sweet baby.
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You know, I'm I think I'm a pretty sweet adult actually.
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You know, but a little intense but sweet, you know. can relate to that.
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You know, but I I bet you were and so that temperament forms like a seed.
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All right, that's a seed right there.
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That temperament is how the world reacts to us.
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That kid who's and won't be soothed and needs attention and needs to cartwheel through the living room the world doesn't like the kid that kid that much, right?
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They go through babysitters don't like them.
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Parents are just a little bit of eye rolling.
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Kids are perceptive and it might even affect attachment because the parent is so exhausted to dealing with that tough child.
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It could even impair attachment experiences and then they go into school.
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Teachers don't like them as much.
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Even peers might be frustrated by them.
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They're having more invalidating experiences, right?
22:30
That's a little bit of some of the seed of what we see can be narcissism, right?
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Because narcissism also has an attachment piece to it.
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In general, people with narcissistic personalities often have more anxious or avoidant attachment styles.
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A little bit more anxious than anything else.
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And why that might be, it might be that there was chaos in the family.
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There may have been, you know, a bad relationship between the parents.
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The parents may have been distracted with their own lives.
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They couldn't be bothered with having kids.
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Um there may have been literal violence, mental mental illness, whatever it might substance use, something was happening in that early environment that may have impacted the attachment experience.
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That's also associated with narcissism.
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We know that in some cases trauma early in life is associated with narcissism, but that gets tricky because in the vast majority of cases it's not cuz the person might say, "Well, I had trauma in childhood. I'm not narcissistic."
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Yeah, that's the bet I would take, but we do see that sometimes especially if that impacts attachment, that's going to make a difference.
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Those are sort of what I consider more of the sort of the difficult early circumstances, the adverse childhood experience origins of narcissism.
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However, there's another side to it, which is the overindulged kind of pathway to narcissism.
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It's like think of narcissism as Rome and multiple roads coming into Rome, right?
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And in the in the sort of overindulged pathways, this is where you see sort of your standard spoiled kid.
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The parents will give the kid anything.
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Things and experiences and money, but here's the ringer.
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There was a very interesting study that came out a couple of years ago where it's not just the spoiling, but it's telling the child you're more special than any of these other kids.
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Not just that you're special.
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That's a lovely message, but you're more special.
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You don't That that line's not for you.
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You know, they'll the other kids wait in that line.
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I'll I'll figure you you're too special to wait in that line.
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That sort of that you're better than the others.
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You're more special than the others, which a narcissistic parent may do to their child and that's how we'll sometimes see narcissistic parents may beget narcissistic kids, but not as a rule.
24:44
So, but all these pathways I'm describing don't always end up in narcissism.
24:49
Why some end up that way, I do think the temperament piece probably plays a bigger role than we think and I've worked with many many narcissistic clients over my years of practice, and I've seen all of these ideology origin pathways play out.
25:02
But, depending on the origin, that will affect how the narcissism looks in adulthood.
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The more kind of traumatizing neglect origin will result in narcissistic people who are a bit more um sullen, resentful, aggrieved, sad, socially anxious.
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Whereas, the spoiled child narcissism will end up a little bit more grandiose.
25:25
So, that that I hope that makes it a little bit clearer.
25:30
Yeah, it adds a lot of color.
25:30
I mean, I think one of the biggest challenges we see is that when I speak to people, whether I'm working with them or I meet them or when they're working with a therapist and then I'm connecting with them in another part of their life, most people don't realize they're with someone narcissistic until after they leave.
25:50
Like, when you write a book Should I Stay or Should I Go?
25:54
I've I found a lot of people figure out towards the end.
25:56
It's not something you spot very quickly, at least from people I know.
25:59
And I would love to hear your experience.
26:01
You obviously you've done this for so long.
26:03
You You've had so many conversations around this.
26:05
I found that it's not something that people spot very early or sometimes the early signs of it even seem positive or it seems that it can be attractive.
26:15
Like you said, a lot of people who are narcissistic can be ambitious. They can be successful.
26:19
They could have achieved a lot of things through that pain, that trauma.
26:23
So, walk us through now, if we're in that should I stay or should I go mode. That's the name of Dr. Ramani's book as well.
26:31
So, as we're talking about it, feel free to order that book.
26:33
When you're in that position and you start to sense there's some narcissism in the person you're with, A, what are you going to sense?
26:41
What are the things that people usually notice?
26:43
Why don't we notice it early on?
26:46
Like, what about narcissism is somewhat Is it Can it be attractive? It's very attractive.
26:49
And here's the ringer in these relationships.
26:53
I people want the narcissistic people to be the cartoon villain, right?
26:57
They want it to be in your face, bad, mean, lying, deceitful, betraying all the time, right?
27:06
Well, that would be easy.
27:07
No one's going to put up with that.
27:07
The challenge with these relationships, whether it's a parent, whether it's a partner, colleague, friend, sibling, you name it, is that there's often enough good days in there to keep you hooked.
27:20
All these qualities, charm, charisma, confidence, ambition, being fun-loving, being extroverted, um wanting to have all kinds of interesting experiences.
27:32
Narcissistic people are very sensation-seeking. They're novelty-seeking. It can be really fun.
27:38
That's why we talk about the love bombing that happens at the beginning of these relationships.
27:42
And what happens is when I've worked with people, especially those who've been in longer-term relationships, they'll say, "Doc, it isn't always bad.
27:49
It wasn't always bad, but the bad is really bad.
27:52
Like the bad leaves me wondering if I'm any good, and I feel like a bad person, and I feel like I'm the one with the problem."
27:59
And on and on and on, right?
28:00
But then, there are those good days, and the person will often say, "See, I was the one who was wrong.
28:06
I'm being I'm being too demanding.
28:06
I've got this silly notion of what a relationship's supposed to be."
28:10
And I can set a clock on the fact that it's going to go back into the downward.
28:13
So, I think that that's one thing I want everyone listening to this to know is that people say, "Well, maybe this person in my life isn't that antagonistic.
28:23
Maybe they're not that narcissistic cuz we have these good days." Plan on the good days.
28:25
It's like being in a relationship, or it's like living someplace where the weather's always extreme.
28:32
It's either like 85° and sunny, or like the most horrific hurricane blizzard, and that weather alternates like on an every few days basis sometimes.
28:42
And so, as a result of that, it confuses people to no end. It isn't always bad. There were good moments.
28:49
There are good memories, and that's what confuses people.
28:53
So, this idea of recognizing someone in my own podcast, Navigating Narcissism, we've done now 30 episodes, right?
29:02
30 episodes, 30 conversations about narcissism.
29:06
And in every in many of these cases, what I've seen, especially in the intimate relationships, somewhere around 1 2 3 years, things were becoming clear. Mhm.
29:13
Although you see the red flags as soon as like the first month, the pieces turning into something like pixels, right?
29:22
A couple of pixels teach you nothing.
29:24
Lots of pixels make a picture.
29:27
And it takes a couple of years for a lot of folks to get enough pixels to say, "Okay." Mhm.
29:31
There I There's no not seeing this, but by then, they may be so deep into it that cognitive dissonance kicks in, and you want it to work.
29:38
So, you tell yourself whatever story you need to tell yourself so the relationship can sustain.
29:44
Well, we have enough good good good times. Maybe it's my fault. I'm being too demanding.
29:50
You'll see this, especially if a person is trying to find a relationship at a pressured time of life. They want to have kids.
29:56
They feel pressured to get married. Whatever it may be.
29:58
But even in a family, a person will say, "I can't walk away from my parents."
30:03
even though every interaction the person has with them is wretched.
30:06
And And my job is to help people find that middle ground of having realistic expectations.
30:11
But I do think that when people red flags are always a story that can be told retrospectively, like, "Okay, there was a red flag on the first date.
30:19
There's a red flag in the first month." Yeah, yeah.
30:23
Everyone will say like, "Okay, all that being late or, you know, all that um telling me that they told me not to apply to that school because they cared about me and didn't want me to feel like I was, you know, they didn't want to watch me go through the school telling me that I couldn't get in."
30:39
But in fact, what they were doing is holding them back on their dreams.
30:42
Like the the pixels turn into a picture.
30:44
And I think that that it does take time, and a lot of people will feel embarrassed thinking, "How did it take me 2 years to see this?"
30:53
To which I say, "2 years is fast. Good for you."
30:55
And when the love bombing ends, and love bombing lasts anywhere from 6 weeks to a year.
31:01
I think that's about the range.
31:04
And so, when the love bombing ends and the devaluing starts, people are almost this on this weird addictive treadmill of like, "How do I get back to that?" Yeah.
31:14
And what And what do I need to change in myself?
31:16
Never stopping to think, "Okay, this person brought their A game for about 3 months. They've shifted. I have not changed."
31:23
So, if you can see it clearly, these you can see the patterns clearly.
31:29
Things like, you know, they'll get incredibly sensitive to criticism.
31:34
That's a very common pattern in narcissistic folks.
31:36
And so, everything will be going well, and a person's feeling more comfortable, and they might give them feedback I don't know what they're wearing or the restaurant they chose or their job, and a rage that feels like a tsunami will enter the relationship, and the person will be like, "What the heck just happened?"
31:53
Those ego injuries can really result in these volcanic kinds of, you know, sorts of shows of emotion.
31:58
That's when people start getting confused and saying, "Maybe I was harsh.
32:02
Maybe I shouldn't have said that." Yeah.
32:04
And so, that what we see invariably is the survivors in these relationships take it upon themselves to try to change everything about themselves believing they can change the other person.
32:15
And if there's only one takeaway here, it's that narcissism, like all maladaptive personality styles, is really resistant to change.
32:23
The more maladaptive the personality, the more rigid it is.
32:28
The more healthy and flexible the personality, the more give and take.
32:34
So, agreeable people are incredibly flexible.
32:36
So, even if they don't want to do something, they might think like, "I love her, you know, she wants to go. And I'm You know what?
32:44
They've always been there for me, so I'm going to go to the horror film festival.
32:47
Might cover my eyes, but then think that that's the give-and-take of a relationship, and won't be angry about it." That's the flexibility.
32:53
Narcissism is the opposite.
32:55
It's like as solid as a brick. Yeah, wow.
32:57
And And I think that when people end up in those scenarios or those experiences, we have this You You raised this point that we almost try and counteract bad memories with good memories.
33:09
Like we That's how we like to make sense of someone is well, if they do a bad thing, how many good things did they do?
33:15
If they do a good thing, how many bad things did they do? Right?
33:18
If we don't like someone overall, we'll come up with the list of mistakes they made.
33:22
If we like someone, we'll come up with the list of compliments they made.
33:25
What's a healthier way of making sense of someone?
33:28
Because I don't find good and bad to be that healthy.
33:30
As you said, it could mislead you.
33:32
I always say to people, you've got to be able to be comfortable with this concept of multiple truths.
33:37
Okay, multiple things can be true at the same time. Mhm.
33:39
You could have had a wonderful courtship. You may have great sex.
33:46
You This person may regularly gaslight you. This person lies to you.
33:53
You really love how they cook spaghetti.
33:55
They're wonderful with your infant.
33:58
They often raise their voice at you.
33:58
Do you see what I'm saying?
34:00
All of these things are happening at the same time. Mhm.
34:03
The hardest thing, I believe, a human being can do is to sit with those multiple truths and not run away.
34:11
It is the ultimate test of mindfulness.
34:14
Because we want we we cognitive dissonance. Our brains are wired.
34:20
They're not wired for inconsistency.
34:23
They're wired for consistency.
34:23
And when things are inconsistent, we feel very tense.
34:27
We feel very uncomfortable.
34:27
And the human species gears towards homeostasis.
34:32
I need to not feel tense.
34:34
The best way to not feel tense is figure out, okay, I want to stay in this relationship, so uh he's a good father.
34:40
What more could you want, right?
34:43
Now, you can argue the flip side of that, too, when a person for some reason feels ready to leave a relationship, they may say they may cherry-pick all the a few bad things and forget how much, you know, that this person's actually really well-regulated and kind and compassionate and all of that.
35:01
I think part of the struggle becomes what constitutes a healthy relationship in any culture.
35:06
Without that agreed-upon definition, I think that's half the battle.
35:11
So, when people say to me, what's a healthy relationship? I'm like, oh, easy.
35:14
It's kind, it's compassionate, it's flexible, it is respectful, it is cooperative, it's collaborative, there's there's, you know, equitability, and it may not it may be that there's very clear roles, but there's a perceived sense of equitability in the relationship, there's self-awareness, and there's an investment in the growth of your partner.
35:35
That's a healthy relationship.
35:37
And people they'll look at their narcissistic relationships and say, I don't have any of those. Yeah. Okay?
35:42
But unfortunately, culture will often dictate what makes things healthy, and then they'll be like, well, they have a good job, they make a lot of money, we are of the same religion, I like how they look. Yeah.
35:55
That stuff is I understand why someone would value it.
35:58
It's not the stuff of a healthy relationship.
36:01
Yeah, those are the things we start convincing ourselves through and and coaching ourselves through and walking ourselves through.
36:06
It gets harder and harder and harder because we get so addicted, especially going back to where you're saying about love bombing.
36:13
Like, being love bombed is really addictive, and it's really intoxicating because it's like, wow, this person's really into me.
36:22
And if I could count the amount of friends I have this year that have been love bombed.
36:26
Like it's insane like how common it is and it's at the shorter end, too.
36:30
It's at that 6-weeks mark or, you know, 3-months mark where people are showing their their full self, I guess, is the right way of saying it.
36:39
How do you stop yourself from being love bombed?
36:42
Like how do you avoid being love bombed or how do you navigate being love bombed?
36:46
Because I think that's the conversation.
36:48
Like we're not going to be able to stop being love bombed, but you are going to be able to slow things down.
36:54
You are going to be able to rethink.
36:55
You are going to be able to But we just love being loved so much and, you know, it's kind of like the confidence boost we never had and it's it's the influx of positive compliments we never had.
37:07
So, how do we slow What do we do? It's a tough one, Jay.
37:12
You know, I mean, listen, if you put like a bunch of I don't know cupcakes or sweets in front of me.
37:19
Starting to eat it, right?
37:19
Knowing that Okay, Ramani, you don't need to You don't need the sugar.
37:23
You know, we're going to turn to then I'd say, "You don't need the sugar.
37:26
You don't That's not good for you."
37:27
Then that's easy I think easier when it comes to food.
37:32
I think that what happens with love bombing might actually be more addictive than drugs because it's often addressing a deficit many people believe they've experienced in their lives that they weren't seen, they weren't recognized, they weren't valued.
37:45
A lot of people didn't get that in the in the early part of their lives.
37:49
So, that someone's coming along or in their dating life they didn't get it with other people.
37:54
So, when someone comes along and is offering it, it almost feels like an offset to those other relationships where a person didn't feel valued or seen or any of that.
38:02
Think part A number one is that you need to know what it is.
38:08
So, when it's happening, you're more aware of it.
38:11
It's like It again using a hurricane analogy.
38:13
It's like preparing for it.
38:14
So, if a person says, "Oh, hurricane's just rain and wind."
38:18
I'm like, "Mhm, maybe not."
38:18
Like let's get those, you know, let's board up your windows, let's sandbag your house, evacuate.
38:24
Like, it's not just a raging storm.
38:27
So, knowing what it is means you're going to prepare yourself in a different way. That's one thing.
38:33
The second thing is love bombing becomes a place for you to test the waters. Okay?
38:39
So, I tell people, pull back on that throttle.
38:41
Let's come down in altitude.
38:43
Let's fly this plane a little slower.
38:46
Now, in most narcissistic relationships, if a person tries I'm not saying end it, but tries to pull back.
38:54
Like, can we go a little slower? Or, you know what?
38:56
We don't need to go to that place.
38:58
Let's just go to this simple restaurant.
38:59
Or, I don't know about traveling yet.
39:01
Like, I'd like to get you know to know you better.
39:05
You put those lines down and set those boundaries.
39:09
In the majority of cases, the narcissistic person's going to jump.
39:13
They're going to do things like doubt your commitment.
39:14
I guess you're not that into me.
39:16
Or, oh yeah, okay, I get it.
39:18
You're not You're not vibing.
39:18
Cuz what you've done is you've taken away their game. Right?
39:22
Now, if they were really, really a good, solid person who just happened to be super into dating you, then they'd say, oh you know what?
39:31
I was I was so interested in you.
39:33
Let me slow this Let me slow my role.
39:36
I think I've got I let my enthusiasm and they'll be I let my enthusiasm get the best of me.
39:41
They'll be self-aware of what they're they're doing and might say, you know, I think that I just you're really wonderful. And but thank you.
39:48
And they'll receive the feedback and say and say, you know what?
39:53
Let's go to that hole in the wall restaurant. That sounds great.
39:57
And it won't be an ego injury.
39:59
And they won't view it again because you're taking away their game.
40:01
That's the That's the example of gaslighting, which by the way, today was designated as the word of the year. What? Yes.
40:08
Merriam-Webster Dictionary called gaslighting the word of the year.
40:11
Which to me, let me tell you, I literally started crying.
40:14
I thought, after 15 years of talking about this stuff quietly, I cannot believe that this is finally entering into the mainstream, but people still use the word wrong.
40:25
But, the fact of the matter is when when you simply say something like, "I really enjoyed getting to know you, but can we just step it back a bit?"
40:31
And a person says, "Well, I guess you're not that interested in me."
40:34
Then, you're being gaslighted cuz that's actually not your experience.
40:38
You actually are quite committed and want to slow it down to see what it's like.
40:41
But, that's a great way to test the waters.
40:43
That would be like that would be me saying, "Can you take all those cupcakes away? I'm not interested." Yeah.
40:49
And I'd still be like, "I really want one." Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So, it's that. Exactly. Yeah.
40:53
Let's Now that you've said that, I didn't realize that's that is incredible that it's the word of the year in the sense that at least we're understanding it.
41:00
It's sad that it's the word of the year because it means more people are experiencing it.
41:04
It's like the, you know, But, but can you again properly clarify us what gaslighting is again so that we don't misuse it and, you Absolutely.
41:12
And I'm when I saw that, I'm like, "I'm going to bring this up with Jay today." Because it's that.
41:16
When it came up as the word of the year, gaslight A lot of people are confused by gaslighting, right?
41:22
Now, the origin of the word is is actually is only in the last less than 100 years.
41:27
It was a name of a play that became a film, and, you know, it was literally about the psychological manipulation of a woman by her husband, and and how she psychologically sort of falls apart because that's happening.
41:42
Fast forward, the only people who talked about gaslighting were therapists.
41:44
It was it was therapist talk.
41:47
And we talk about it, oh god, her husband's gaslighting him, you know, kind of thing.
41:51
And my shrink would say it to me, right?
41:53
And I was like, "Oh, you're being gaslighted." So, it was shrink talk.
41:56
Nobody else talked about it.
41:59
And then, those of us working in this space, it was, you know, like, oh, that's the primary tool of the narcissistic person because it's a tool of domination.
42:07
So, the way gaslighting works is it's a it's a denial of a person's reality. That's step one. I never said that. That never happened.
42:17
You're What are you saying?
42:19
Like I I don't even see what you're talking about, right?
42:23
You're like didn't or this isn't happening?
42:24
So, you now you're already a little off balance cuz I'm it very authoritatively saying to you something didn't happen.
42:33
But that's not That's That by itself is not gaslighting. Oh, okay. No.
42:36
You got to go Now, the step two of gaslighting is then I tell you there's something wrong with you. Right. You're so sensitive.
42:45
Like why do you see this everywhere?
42:45
Or like Ooh, God, you know, paranoia much? I You know what?
42:50
I'm going to get you the name of a shrink so you need to talk to someone cuz you keep imagining things that aren't happening. Okay?
42:58
So, imagine a person in a relationship where there's infidelity and they're getting suspicious.
43:01
Their partner's hours, whatever it is, messages.
43:05
And they say to their partner what is this thing at work?
43:07
You keep staying and you're not you're traveling.
43:11
Like, is there anything going on that I should know about?
43:13
No, there's nothing going on. Okay, step one.
43:17
We're not gaslighted yet, though. Yeah. Yeah.
43:19
Gaslighting is but you know what I'm sick of?
43:21
I'm sick of living with an unhinged paranoid lunatic.
43:25
That's what I'm tired of. Right. There's the gaslight.
43:27
Now, there's a step three.
43:31
Is that it's not a one-off.
43:31
One time, yes, that's a gaslighting episode, but the true gaslighting abuse happens over time. Mhm.
43:38
Over and over and over and it won't just be about one issue. I never said that. What is wrong with you?
43:43
Oh, I'm getting so tired of your paranoia. You're so sensitive.
43:47
And what happens then is that other person being told repeatedly by someone they do trust cuz gaslighting is predicated on trust.
43:58
It's harder for a stranger to gaslight you. Mhm.
44:00
Partner, family member, healthcare provider, um teacher, people who have some power over someone, politicians.
44:09
Can gaslight entire societies can gaslight, right?
44:12
When everyone is coming in on one party line and denying reality and then telling the people who don't believe that that there's something wrong with them and do it over and over and over again, you break the other person's spirit.
44:24
You leave them completely doubting themselves, completely blaming themselves.
44:29
And so what happens is when a person's chronically gaslighted, you'll see things like No, no, you know what? This is my fault.
44:37
They start say They start apologizing before they get into the I'm sorry. I'm sorry.
44:41
And I'll be like, What are you sorry for?
44:42
It's just they got so used to saying it.
44:45
So they're they're they really get shattered by this where they literally lose a sense of up and down, night and day.
44:53
They're just it's a it's such a cruel thing to do to a person.
44:59
It is qualifies as emotional abuse.
45:02
So this idea of gaslighting, great that it's in the public consciousness, but it's not just lying. Everyone says, Dr.
45:09
Ramani, what's the difference between lying and gaslighting?
45:12
Lying is a denial of evidence, right?
45:15
So today we had our time to get together and make it up.
45:18
You could say, Oh, yeah, you're going to be here at 2:00.
45:21
And I'd say, That's not true.
45:21
You told me to get here at 1:00. It was 1:00. 1:00. 1:00.
45:28
I know it was 1:00 and I insist on that.
45:31
Then you'd be able to show me the email and say, Ramani, look, it says 2:00.
45:32
And then and then I and then I went with that, right?
45:37
Then we just close the lie got Lies get shut down by evidence.
45:42
Gaslighting is a lie, but wrapped up in this invalidating bow. Mhm.
45:46
And that I mean, when I hear that, it breaks my heart because I know so many people have been on the end of that.
45:55
And you see how someone may even have started off with an anxious or avoidant attachment style and now that anxiety is through the roof, or that self- criticism is, you know, the self-doubt is is even greater.
46:12
Now that person can't trust again.
46:12
Now the person's struggling with their value and their worth.
46:16
And and I know this a bigger question, and I and I do want to get into it, but that individual, what could they have done differently to avoid going inward?
46:27
Because I What I found is that when someone is potentially probably one of the other personality types, it's natural for them to think that there's something that they need to change.
46:38
That's the natural default of the other personality types.
46:42
It's like, well, if something's not working out, maybe I should change, cuz then it could be better, right? responsibility.
46:47
Or take responsibility, exactly.
46:47
And so and I and I've seen that in myself even when even when someone would say the meanest thing about me, even if I know it's not true to my core, there's a part of me that will still reflect on it, because I'm like, what if?
47:00
May maybe there's something I'm missing about myself.
47:04
But how do you avoid letting it affect you?
47:08
Or or are you saying there is no way and it is going to affect you?
47:09
I think that it's a mix of things.
47:11
And it's interesting when you when people get savvy about gaslighting and they know they're being gaslighted in real time.
47:19
Now, the one thing you can never ever ever do is tell a gaslighter that you know that they're gaslighting you.
47:23
Cuz then they're going to double down. Okay?
47:27
So when it's happening in real time, is and this is what's so hard, because it becomes sort of a cart before the horse thing.
47:33
Most people haven't done the therapeutic work of who am I? What am I about? What is my identity?
47:44
How do I stand as a person? What do I believe in?
47:46
What do I care about, right?
47:49
Very few people do that work.
47:52
Because then when you do that, again, I get this I get this a lot in online spaces because people a lot of people out there who are very pro narcissism apparently.
48:01
And so when I come out but it's a very big organized community. Wow. Dr.
48:05
Ramani is a terrible therapist and she's very unempathetic.
48:09
That was one of last week's comments, okay? Wow.
48:13
It has less impact Jay because I don't know this person.
48:15
It's a stranger on the internet.
48:17
But I have to catch myself because I know there's parts of me that have that neurotic structure where I believe that's plausible just because that's just who I am and how That's what I mean. That's what I mean. Yeah.
48:27
The work then becomes I have to and it to literally talking myself out loud.
48:32
Like, Ramani, you are empathetic. You're solid.
48:38
You are a very good therapist.
48:38
You've seen really meaningful change in your clients.
48:43
Literally, I'm saying this out loud.
48:44
However, and this is the interesting rub, this hurt you even though this is from a stranger.
48:51
So give yourself a second.
48:54
And that might be talk to someone I care about who cares about me to see if they can uplift me.
48:58
It might be do something pleasurable.
49:00
Might mean doing a brief workout.
49:01
It might mean Whatever it means.
49:03
You know, that there's a moment when I'm saying, I need to show some compassion to myself right now because this person has hit me someplace that hurts.
49:12
Becomes a different call to arms at that point. Yeah. Does that make sense?
49:16
But the initial work is who am I and what am I about? Yeah.
49:20
You know, and I think that this is why journaling becomes so important because having these places you've written things down where you can look back and say, I I really have come at things from the heart.
49:32
And sure, I've made mistakes like everyone does.
49:33
But listen, this is a this is a highfalutin This is me having been in therapy therapy for 50,000 years, you know?
49:40
So that's also there there's a place where that work's been done and having gone through a life and had to learn from all of that.
49:46
That was not something I was doing when I was 25 years old.
49:49
So a therapist though could if a good therapist, it would be a place where somebody could say, "You're being gaslighted."
49:55
And I can't tell you how many times I've sat with a client and said, "It sounds like they're gaslighting you."
50:00
And the client would be like, "What?"
50:01
And then we'll walk through what is their reality, who are they?
50:05
And then when that session is done, they'll often say, "I feel like a big weight has been lifted off of me because I was literally doubting the very essence of who I am."
50:13
And this is where therapy becomes so important because it's sort of bringing a person back to doing that work of who they really are, what they really stand for, what they're about.
50:25
So, in real time, it's really about listening to it.
50:28
I have to be honest with you when I with in the presence of someone who is gaslighting me and they're actually somebody who I do value, I tend to disengage a bit.
50:39
You know, I'll just sort of let you know, I'll say, you know, I'll often give the okay, we're just seeing it in different ways.
50:44
And um I'll sort of soften and I won't get into it with them anymore.
50:49
I will I I don't In fact, one of my techniques I give the clients I work with is don't go deep.
50:53
Don't defend, don't engage, don't explain, don't personalize.
50:57
So, I'll disengage a bit and realize, okay, this is no longer a safe space.
51:02
And and that sort of feels self-protective.
51:03
And I think that that's almost like retraining an inner critic to say, "Can I also have an inner bodyguard?"
51:09
So that I can just have someone's like, "Hey hon, let's just pull you back a little bit." Yeah, yeah. I It's so interesting.
51:15
I had an episode with a coaching client cuz obviously it that that's my I had a episode with a coaching client earlier this year and I have a similar approach where I'm like, I know who I am, I know what I care about, I know with what intention I work towards.
51:30
And ultimately, if that's an opinion someone has of me, they're entitled to that, but but I'm not going to go deep with it because I know that's just not my truth and that's not where I am.
51:42
But like you're saying, that takes a lot of self-work beforehand.
51:44
And like you said, there's also still an openness to feedback.
51:50
There's still an openness to being better.
51:52
It's not like you think you're complete and you're perfect and your intention's perfect, either.
51:57
So, I I really like that you brought it back to that because I I'm glad that we got back to that that at the end of the day, it's about who you are, your intention, the essence of who you're trying to be, and that's ultimately all you have to go back to before and after. But, it's hard. But, it's hard, yeah.
52:15
It's really, really And for people who've been through lifelong narcissistic abuse, long-term narcissistic abuse in a relationship, they're like, I have no idea who I am.
52:24
So, so I do say that honestly, and the film, the original film Gaslight, portrays this as part of the storyline.
52:31
Ultimately, ultimately, she got un-gaslighted, if you will, because just one person.
52:36
It only takes one person.
52:39
And I always tell everyone, you can be the person who turns the gaslight off for someone else.
52:43
You may witness some something and say, that's you know, you might be at a meeting and someone might say, "That's not what they said."
52:53
And so now you're un-gaslighting them in real time.
52:55
It might be you do it after the meeting if that's safer.
52:59
Someone will tell you what's happening in their relationship and you don't doubt them.
53:02
Say, "Oh, come on, it couldn't have been that bad." You don't say that.
53:06
You're like, "I am so sorry this is happening to you.
53:08
This sounds absolutely terrible. Are you okay?"
53:12
Because what you've done is you've given permission to this person who's just told you they're going through something terrible minimizing it or in many ways is a gaslighted approach.
53:20
Like, "Oh, it's it's not that bad."
53:22
because of our discomfort with someone else's discomfort.
53:25
We can hold this space for other people and sort of turn that gaslight off for others, and you'd be amazed at how quickly that can turn the ship around.
53:34
Yeah, well, what are what are some of the realistic expectations for someone who says, "I think I I change them.
53:40
I think I can be the person that helps this narcissistic person evolve, grow, change, whatever word they use.
53:46
Like, what have been realistic storylines as to how those episodes and scenarios go? They don't.
53:51
I am In In my book, Don't You Know Who I Am, there is a letter in that book.
53:59
And I had been speaking in some public forum, this woman heard me, and in somebody was asking me a question in this in this forum, and she was in a relatively new new marriage.
54:07
They've been together a couple years, married.
54:11
All the narcissistic top notes were there in her partner.
54:15
And she was asking the question, "I don't know.
54:17
Can I stick this out for another 10 years?
54:18
I'm just trying to figure this out."
54:21
And then this woman just did it herself.
54:23
She had She's one of the few who's decided to stay the next 10 years.
54:27
And she beautifully lays out, "Honey, this is what's going to happen if you stay for another 10 years."
54:32
It's basically 10 more years of gaslighting, 10 more years of broken heart.
54:36
Um I've worked with clients, Jay, who weren't ready to go.
54:38
And so, they say they they sometimes even drop out of therapy.
54:44
And a few times I've had those clients call me back 3 5 7 8 years later.
54:50
Sometimes tearful and say, "Nothing changed."
54:55
And there's no sense of triumph in me for that.
54:57
I recognize that they needed to see it the way they needed to see it.
55:02
I don't get to dictate their rock bottom.
55:04
I don't get to dictate when someone sees something.
55:05
I do all the psychoeducation stuff I do, online education, to see if I might be able to push the fast-forward button on that, but it's still you get there when you get there.
55:15
But Like, there has been I can say it probably counts 10 instances of people, 10 of the thousands I've heard, that where people have said, "You know, this person actually, when I said I'm done, I'm over it, I'm In fact, recently came up in one of my seminars in my healing program.
55:34
And this person said, "I'm done. I'm out."
55:39
Um and she moved into her own place.
55:42
And her husband ended up going to 12-step.
55:45
He ended up going to therapy.
55:49
He had become more self-aware.
55:51
And she had found herself thriving living by herself. But she did love him.
55:56
And he said, "I want you to move back in."
55:57
And she said, "You know what?
55:57
I'm still growing and finding myself.
55:59
So the answer to that is no.
56:01
We can continue having tentative conversations."
56:03
And he didn't rage at her.
56:07
That was one of the more hopeful stories I've heard in the last few years.
56:09
Uh and and that's that's one in five years.
56:12
And so uh you know, that in this case that this person became more well-regulated.
56:19
But her telling me that 12-step helped led me to realize that perhaps addiction was probably the more powerful piece of that story.
56:25
We'll sometimes see sort of competing kinds of patterns.
56:30
But by and large, I have not I mean, it is the realistic expectation though to your point.
56:35
The reason that book is called Should I Stay or Should I Go?
56:36
Is about 50% of people stay in these relationships. They do.
56:43
And the reasons vary from finances to children, to religion, to culture, to I still love this person, to I'm afraid, whatever the reasons are.
56:55
No one, not me, not you, not anyone gets to judge those reasons.
57:01
What I believe in as a therapist is to meet them where they are at with that. And say, "Okay.
57:06
So that's I understand I hear you.
57:08
I don't get to sit here and tell you you don't love this person. You love them. You love them."
57:14
I'm here to tell you this is what you can realistically expect if you stay. Right?
57:19
And I I use this um sort of metaphor of going into the tiger's cage when I'm talking with survivors, which is there's a tiger, there's a cage.
57:24
If it's really a tiger and you go in that cage, you're going to get torn apart.
57:30
If it's not a tiger, if it's a sweet little cat, then you might have a nice little experience.
57:37
But maybe the only way you And I'm telling you, and even if I tell you it's a tiger, you may not believe me until you get in that cage.
57:45
So, I know that sometimes my clients say I have to let them go and let them go into the cage.
57:49
When they get torn apart, my job is to help bring them back together again.
57:54
And so, going into the tiger's cage is something sometimes people need to do to say, I just need to be sure. That's what Yeah, yeah.
58:01
And I say, I understand that's part of your journey, and I'm going to support you in that. I'm here.
58:06
I cuz I think some clients think like, well, Dr.
58:08
Romani is going to be offended if I go, you know, if And that's not healthy either.
58:12
You're going to I I'm somebody who has gone back, who continues to maintain more than a few narcissistic relationships in my life for reasons of culture. We're both South Asian.
58:22
We know that there's a tremendous pressure in South Asia, and at least in actually in many cultures, to sustain committed relationships and family.
58:30
So, I can't roll into those cultures and say, yeah, you got to go. That's not an option.
58:36
But saying to people that you are not going to get a depth of emotional need met here.
58:40
You are going to be invalidated.
58:42
The work has to be in you not believing what they're saying.
58:48
They are not going to grow empathy.
58:49
They're going to remain entitled.
58:49
You need to You need to develop other sources of support, and that might be through friends, through family, through spirituality, however what however you find those spaces where you feel seen and heard.
59:03
Like I said, whether through other human beings, the universe, God, whatever that looks like for you. That's your work.
59:09
So, when you realize that maybe the normal depth of a relationship of a healthy relationship is this, you got this. Yeah.
59:18
And you're going to have to be ready for that roller coaster of the bad days, the good days, and not personalize it.
59:22
But in the long term, Jay, staying in that toxic setting is going to take a toll on those people, even with all the realistic expectations.
59:31
It takes a toll on a person.
59:34
Well, I think you've just hit something there that that's the real growth, that whether you decide to stay or you decide to go, the work of figuring out who you are and what's important to you, what your self-worth is based on, what your value is, that's going to happen either way. Hopefully.
59:51
Ho- Well, that's that's going to be a path that hopefully you'll have to take either way.
59:55
And so, whatever you're going to do, please take that path because that's a path that stays with you forever, like But to take that path quietly.
1:00:04
So, you don't get to So, the ultimate healing in the narcissistic relationship comes from a process called individuation. You become you.
1:00:12
Out It's Imagine like a tree some that's so shadowing that the plants under it can't grow cuz they're blocked from the sun.
1:00:22
Our goal is to get you out of the shadow of their branches, to no longer have to serve as a in psychological servitude to them, that you get to individuate.
1:00:30
The problem is they don't want to hear it or see it.
1:00:34
Sort of psychologically alive in a narcissistic relationship, you have to skirt a very challenging line of being authentic in other spaces but not in that relationship And that's because that's really hard because your your authenticity will be shaved away.
1:00:48
But if you make it a very conscious act that once again, that inner bodyguard, I'm protecting myself right now.
1:00:55
They don't get to see all of me because they are not able to hold me safe. And I deserve that.
1:01:01
So, I'm going to put authentic me away for a minute.
1:01:06
I'm just going to show up. Not going to be cruel. Not going to be unkind.
1:01:08
I'm going to show up and do what I got to do.
1:01:13
You know, what whether that's just sort of keep the trains running on time.
1:01:14
I work with clients, honestly, Jay, coming up with a list of neutral conversation topics.
1:01:20
The weather What What What have said it beautifully the other day.
1:01:22
They said, "Sports, news, weather."
1:01:23
You know, like that's pretty much all you can talk about in these relationships, right?
1:01:27
And weather tends to be the safest.
1:01:29
Can you believe this rain? It's really cloudy.
1:01:31
I wonder when it's going to get warm again.
1:01:35
I mean, is And people say, "But that's not a relationship." I said, "It never was."
1:01:40
So, you learn that piece, but you allow your authenticity to bloom in safer situations.
1:01:45
It's like a plant that can only bloom in the night, but not in the day, right?
1:01:48
The flowers grow just at night, but there's reasons it can't be bloomed in the day.
1:01:52
You're You're still going to bloom, but you become a much more intentional and mindful person in your life that you really say to yourself consciously, even like you might be pulled in front of a friend's house and say, "I can't bring all of me into this."
1:02:09
You breathe in, and you go and you show up as sort of part of yourself, but not all of yourself. And you know what?
1:02:14
You know who the real loser in that is?
1:02:16
That fool of a person who doesn't get to participate in the full glory, the full authentic glory of who you are.
1:02:23
They lost, not you, and you protected yourself.
1:02:28
And that that part require The reason why I'm hearing from you why that path after 10 years in the letter, as you said, is is even so tough is because being a less version of yourselves takes so much strength and so much courage. It's It's not weakness.
1:02:45
It takes so much energy to be a less version of yourself because someone doesn't allow you to be your full self. Correct.
1:02:53
It's a restraint, but it's not And I think for too many people in these relationships, they're this attenuated, less authentic version of themselves.
1:03:03
They think that they're actually less than.
1:03:04
And I say, "You're not less than.
1:03:08
You are actually caring for yourself. Yeah.
1:03:10
You're learning that you can't bring that in.
1:03:13
And I have to be frank with you, Jay.
1:03:14
When people really get this right, they're like, "Okay, I'm not doing this anymore."
1:03:17
Cuz what they were doing before was they really were acting in a way that they thought, "If I do it this way, they'll change. If I do it that way."
1:03:24
I said, "Change is off the table.
1:03:25
From here on forward, you're moving forward with change off the table."
1:03:28
And I'll tell you, that pressed the accelerator for many people saying, even if they didn't leave entirely in intimate relationships, they often left.
1:03:36
But in family relationships, they'll say, "I think I'm going to take a pass on Thanksgiving this year.
1:03:39
I think I'm going to not I'm only going to go for one day of the family wedding."
1:03:42
Like they start setting some real boundaries, and they learn to tolerate other people saying, "Well, isn't she uppity for not showing up?"
1:03:52
Like that tolerance of people engaging this sort of enabling discourse of, "Oh, you're not a team player."
1:04:00
Or now you're the one who's difficult, to recognize that when people take these rather revolutionary steps of taking care of themselves, that again, I do believe that self-care and that restraint in these kinds of toxic relationships is literally an act of rebellion. Mhm.
1:04:18
Yeah, and I love what the example you gave that certain cultures, whether it's cultural, societal, financial pressures that stop us from walking away, what are some of the healthier boundaries people can set up?
1:04:32
So one boundary is, "I'm going to make time for myself to bloom, to be authentic in my own space.
1:04:36
I'm going to find friends and community that that I take strength from."
1:04:41
Are there other healthy boundaries that people can set if they are currently staying in this situation based on financial, societal, or family expectations or pressures?
1:04:50
Not to engage in the same way.
1:04:53
I think a lot of people would get sort of with the the dog with a bone kind of a fight with them, right?
1:04:59
It's just sort of letting it go.
1:05:01
People will say, "I I don't want to relent."
1:05:03
I'm like, "Well, then don't relent with people you actually who are healthy and can go be very sort of deep, mindful, circumspect people.
1:05:13
Don't get into that argument with them unless you just want to get into an argument for the sake of getting into an argument.
1:05:18
Something else that people need to be prepared with in these sort of narcissistic relational situations is that there's a lot of baiting.
1:05:25
If you're not giving the arguments and being as gaslightable as you once were, that's not very satisfying for them.
1:05:31
So, they're going to find a way to go for the jugular to make you bleed and make you fight back.
1:05:37
And I say to people, you've got to know sort of your your true north, as it were.
1:05:44
And you might not take 90% of arguments, but if they go after some of those things you hold sacred, it could be your children, it could be a belief system you have, it could be um people other people you care about, whatever it is, if they go for that, then you're like, "You know what? I'm I'm I'm going in. I'm tiger's cage. I'm going in.
1:06:05
I am going to I can't listen to this. I can't do this."
1:06:08
But, recognize it's not going to change anything, and it's a question of which depletion is worth worse at that point.
1:06:15
Holding yourself silent at such a point or actually having the argument.
1:06:17
And then I tell people, if you decide to go in and do that, you need to engage in some form of just coming back down, whatever that looks like for you after these kinds of interactions, because many, many people will say after they've had to spend time with a very toxic, difficult, antagonistic, narcissistic, call it what you will person, they'll feel really depleted.
1:06:40
And if you keep having those episodes of depletion, you're going to get sick.
1:06:44
Yeah, I've also found that, I mean, more from an experience point of view that the more you're associating with that energy, the more likely you become or adopt certain behaviors, too.
1:06:54
I don't know if you've seen that, where certain people start adopting similar patterns, similar behaviors in order to be able to fight back and defend themselves as a defense mechanism.
1:07:04
Not saying that you become narcissistic, but that you also respond by gaslighting or trying to you know, you're using that person's game against them because that's the only play to survive.
1:07:14
And you're doing it consciously, but eventually, I mean, it just becomes unconscious to some degree.
1:07:21
I don't know if you've seen that or heard that.
1:07:23
I I've definitely seen it where people will say change. I'm not saying that.
1:07:26
that No, I think that people will say, "I don't know how often you'd be willing to steal food, but you'd steal it if you were hungry." Yeah.
1:07:32
Doesn't make you a thief. Yes. That's yeah, yeah.
1:07:34
That That aligns with you.
1:07:36
And that's the um we would all do things we don't ordinarily do to survive.
1:07:40
And I think that some people until they understand this personality style doesn't change, that you have to have these realistic expectations, all of that.
1:07:49
Until people get that, they do keep sort of getting into the tango with them, which may mean you know, shifts in terms of frustration, dysregulation, um their own empathy may wane.
1:08:01
We know that there's something called compassion fatigue.
1:08:04
Compassion fatigue is very contiguous to burnout.
1:08:06
And people in these relationships will say, "My empathy is gone to hell.
1:08:09
Like people are telling me their problems, I'm like, I I don't have it anymore."
1:08:13
And it's not that your empathy is gone away, but it's almost like it's been a one You've just It's almost like a vessel where the compassion's only going out and very little's coming in. Yeah. Dr.
1:08:23
Ramani, this has been incredible to talk to you, and I just want to recommend the books because we only touched the tip of the iceberg.
1:08:31
The book I'm There's two books here that I highly recommend.
1:08:33
One is called Should I Stay or Should I Go?
1:08:38
Um you're going to hear about chapters about how did you get sucked in, how do they make you feel, and of course, answering the question Should I Stay or Should I Go?
1:08:45
If you are a friend or in a tough position in this kind of a relationship, then this book's going to help you make that decision.
1:08:51
Extremely practical, applicable advice.
1:08:53
And the other book is called Don't You Know Who I Am?
1:08:59
How to Stay Sane in an Era of narcissism, entitlement, and incivility. Um Yeah.
1:09:04
this book is also available right now, and so I highly recommend both these books. Uh Dr.
1:09:08
Romani, is there anything that you didn't share that you really want to share from your heart, or something that's on your mind, or something in the moment that you feel inspired or called upon to share with us today?
1:09:18
I think that for me it is the I'm tired of the loss of human potential I'm seeing in these relationships. Wow.
1:09:26
Whether it's a 5-year relationship or 60-year relationship.
1:09:29
And while it is very hard for a person to actualize and give light to their best self while they're in these relationships, it's not impossible.
1:09:43
And I have worked with people who have been in long long-term relationships like this, and yet I see this their and empathy and compassion are deeply retained.
1:09:52
They still do laugh deeply, and and they'll say, you know, and they'll say, "Listen, we I can't in my in my world, in my life, in my culture, I can't end this, but that doesn't mean there's not joy in my life."
1:10:08
And I think for me, what I want to do is think everyone's been misplacing their hope in the narcissistic relationship.
1:10:16
The hope needs to be in oneself.
1:10:19
And that the hope has to be that there is this this tremendous untold story in you, and it is your story, not the story of them in your life, but you and yours.
1:10:29
And to give sort of flight to that narrative of you, that to me is that's the work, that's the healing.
1:10:35
And to let And people say, "Do I Does this ever fully go away?"
1:10:39
And the answer is, "No, it doesn't."
1:10:41
It is something that's there, and I'll say, "Survivors have a unique beauty, right?
1:10:45
It's roomy, and it's the wound where the you know, the the wound is where the light enters you," and all of that.
1:10:52
There we say the survivors can see each other in the room, right?
1:10:53
They're the ones in the audience that are sort of like, you know, with I'm I'm finally being heard and seen kind of thing.
1:10:59
And they they've had a different journey.
1:11:04
It's I'm not saying it's better or worse or more virtuous, but there is a there can be this sort of depth you bring into your life after having been through it.
1:11:12
It's a loss of innocence.
1:11:12
I have to say you will you'll never sort of laugh and be in the same way, but you may sort of when the laughter comes, it feels like a gift.
1:11:23
And I think that many survivors say, "I'm I'm ruined."
1:11:28
Not only not ruined, there's a depth to your to your inner beauty that really comes out.
1:11:33
I'm not saying anyone should seek it out, by the way. It will find you.
1:11:37
That's the problem with narcissism in our culture.
1:11:40
And so like I said, this is being done through storytelling in my podcast.
1:11:44
I try to teach about it, but above all else, to me the work is helping people heal from this because I don't believe anyone is defined by this. No, that's so powerful.
1:11:56
Everyone's been listening and watching.
1:11:57
The podcast is called Navigating Narcissism.
1:11:58
Make sure you go listen and subscribe. YouTube channel as well. Dr. Ramani.
1:12:03
And of course on Instagram, make sure you tag us across platforms, whether you're sharing clips on TikTok, whether you're sharing in your stories or your posts on Instagram. Make sure you tag Dr.
1:12:13
Ramani and I letting us know what stayed with you, what stuck with you, what you're going to share with a friend.
1:12:18
Maybe there was a moment that you know someone in your life needs to hear.
1:12:21
Make sure you pass this episode along to them.
1:12:24
I hope this episode very clearly defined and described for you narcissism, gaslighting, love bombing.
1:12:31
Really trying to break down what these terms actually are, how you can get an instinct for sensing them, knowing when they're there, and then the steps that you can take which are laid out beautifully in the books and the content that we've recommended.
1:12:42
Really hoping that you find the help and support that you need in order to navigate narcissism in your life in any form.
1:12:48
And we're going to be welcoming Dr.
1:12:50
Ramani back onto the podcast many, many times to have future conversations about this theme in different areas of our lives as well. So, Dr.
1:12:58
Ramani, thank you so much for your time and energy.
1:13:00
Honestly, your work is so needed and so powerful and what I love from sitting down with you every time is not only is my mind stimulated and not only do I feel my intelligence has gained, I always feel moved by the words you share as well in my heart space and I really appreciate that. So, I thank you so much.
1:13:18
you so much for opening your heart and letting that happen, too.
1:13:20
If you want even more videos just like this one, make sure you subscribe and click on the boxes over here.
1:13:26
I'm also excited to let you know that you can now get my book Think Like a Monk from thinklikeamonkbook. com.
1:13:35
Check below in the description to make sure you order today.