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You don't get to have an amazing relationship with someone because of a promise or a commitment.
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You get to do it because you renew that promise and commitment on a daily, weekly, monthly basis.
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Not because you want to extend the years you've been together, but because you want to extend the growth.
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Hey everyone, welcome back to awkward therapy, taboo topics, uncomfortable conversations.
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We don't even have a name yet, but we just know that we're doing something that's uncomfortable, awkward, and difficult, but I'm doing it with my dear friend Lewis Howes, who I admire, I learn so much from, who we have these fascinating conversations with every month for hours and hours and hours, and we find it really useful to go back and forth and just dissect a topic.
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So, today's topic is something that I think's going to interest a lot of people because we're trying to ask questions that we all have in our heads, but no one ever says out loud because it's kind of It's scary. It's scary.
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to talk about, it's controversial.
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Especially if you're in a relationship, today's one is a scary one to ask, and these are two men in relationships.
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I've been married and and with my wife for nearly 10 years now, so that's a long time.
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You're in a relationship that you're very happy in with your girlfriend Marta, and I'm so happy to see you both happy, but we're also both reflecting on these things.
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So, the question is, or the question we're starting with and then we'll kind of get lost in it, is is it possible to be exclusive with and love one person for your entire life?
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For the rest of your life, right? Like that's Oh. We'll put it out there. Yeah. Yeah.
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And we want to encourage you to have this conversation, so you know, with people at work, with people at home, maybe not with your partner.
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Maybe maybe WITH YOUR PARTNER, MAYBE THAT'S A GOOD THING to do. to talk about, yeah.
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We we want to encourage you to share this with one person that you think could be interesting to have this conversation with.
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Maybe that is your partner, a friend, or whatever. Maybe your parents.
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Maybe your parents and listen to this, share this conversation with one person and set a time to have a discussion about what you heard, what you liked, maybe what you didn't like from this conversation, and and share with us in the comments below in this channel what was the most interesting thing or what you'd add to this.
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I think that'd be useful for people. I love that.
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And And by the way, the reason why this is called Awkward Therapy is both me and Lewis not therapists, we're not.
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We're trying to figure life out and we believe that having open and honest conversations help us do that because you get to hear things from another perspective and you get to just think about something for a lot longer than like the second you make decisions.
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So, anyway, I mean, let's dive in.
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I think So, what's the answer? Can you do that?
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I I first think of when we grew up Yeah.
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we watched a lot of movies that would portray this fantasy or this ideal, let's call it, that you you find the prince or the princess, you marry, and it's happily ever after.
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And then in the real world, things happen.
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People move town, you get an opportunity for work somewhere, you have to do long distance, and there's challenges.
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There was a breakup that someone had and they're still lingering in the new conversation or they're talking to their ex or things just happen in life.
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Or you're just on Instagram and you get distracted by and you think that everyone else is better than the relationship you have.
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There's all these shiny opportunities, right?
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Are these different people that could bring you more joy or love than in the current relationship.
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And you and I both have friends that are in, let's call it, open relationships.
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I guess you call it polyamory, right?
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Where they have multiple partners or you have one main partner and you have multiple relationships.
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And we both know people that have been married for a long time, decades, who are happily married.
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We both know people that have been married for decades and are unhappily married.
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And so, I guess where do we start?
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I mean, I I think what you said sparked something for me.
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Like, I grew up as a hopeless romantic based on movies and music.
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So, I always believed that there's the one and I wanted this big romantic relationship and I love like flowers and like poetry and like long walks and surprises and gifts because I bought into what Hollywood showed me.
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So, for me, I think for a long period of my life, I believed that love was what I saw in the movies.
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And I know that sounds ridiculous, but in my teens, I would say that was massively what I saw and I was watch American movies.
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So, people getting asked out to prom or like was like a big deal in American movies or whether it was like finding that one person who's going to solve everything, right?
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And then you start recognizing that Oh, wait a minute.
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I had a few relationships that looked like that on the outside, but then they didn't feel that way. Oh, wait a minute.
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I've had a few breakups now. Oh, wait a minute.
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Like, I thought this person was the one, but they weren't.
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And then you start recognizing now that I've been in a long relationship long-term relationship, you start realizing love looks completely different.
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And so, I think for me, the way I address this or the way I think about this is that first of all, you have to define what love means to you.
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And what you want love to be.
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For some people, they just want love to feel like attraction, infatuation, desire.
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And if that's how you define love, chances are you're going to want a new person every month or every year.
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Because desire or that type of chemical desire explosiveness fades eventually.
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The study showed that, too.
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And I'm not saying that you can't have desire for someone.
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I know I know one couple that's been married for like 30 years and they would still say they have that and I love that.
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desire Yeah, there's different levels of desire.
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There's like a conscious healthy desire where you admire, respect, you're inspired by and that creates that chemistry and that whether you want to call it sexual desire or whatever desire you create in your intimacy and relationship, but the explosive like unhealthy desire, I feel like only comes when you're kind of trauma bonding each other like early on, right?
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You see something and you're like, I want that, but then there was never like a foundation of values, what you really want in your life together, agreements, you know, this conscious conversation around being a couple. Yes. Yes.
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And I would say one thing you said which is really interesting to me cuz I think it's another societal narrative is that the desire fades and really what we both know is that desire deepens. Mhm.
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Like it becomes about deepening things. Absolutely.
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And so it's not that it goes away, it's just that it evolves.
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But if you are only into that initial desire and I I remember for a long time, I mean, my greatest joy came from the pursuit and the chase and the conquest. Pre-monk life. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
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I got a lot Yeah, pre-monk life.
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So I got a lot of joy out of wanting to see if I could get someone.
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Like that was the mindset.
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Yeah, because that was the mindset that I was brought up in.
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Now, of course, when I look back at this, I don't believe in that as a value.
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I don't think I don't think women or anyone are something to get, but I think growing up as a teenager who wasn't exposed to any form of wisdom or insight, you grow up with that mentality of like, you're only trying to prove it to yourself.
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That's Or you're Or you're like buddies or something to be like, oh, this person's into me or look what, you know.
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Which ultimately is you trying to prove to yourself that you are worthy so that your friends respect you.
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And so now you're going out to obtain this thing.
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So How long were you doing that up until?
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Like and how how old were you when you stopped the chase?
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21 like 2021 Better man than me. Better man than me.
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What I realized was that there was a lot of fun to the chase. Right? There's so fun.
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It's like this addictive drug.
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It's like there is someone out there that I'm attracted to or has something that I want or want to be in in contact with them whether that's a relationship or a hookup or whatever might be, right?
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And then the the attempt to go after I guess accomplishing this feat is like a drug.
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It is like this chemical drug that makes you kind of obsessive about it, right?
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Until you get it and then it when you get it from a place that is unconscious, it never was fulfilling or rewarding for me, right?
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And it was creating a foundation from something that wasn't based on values, vision, lifestyle, things like that.
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They never worked out for me. It was never healthy.
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It might have been fun for 6 months or it might have been some good intentions here and there, but it never long-term worked out because there wasn't a foundation of conscious relationship being developed. Yeah.
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I think that's what you did with Roddy like when you got out of the the monk life and you started a relationship with Roddy, you guys started from the beginning.
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What you told me is about here are my values. Here's my mission.
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I'm on a mission to be impactful and serve humanity.
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This is the type of marriage I want to create.
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This is the type of life I want to have.
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This is the some of the stuff that I remember you telling me.
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And I think going into a relationship with conscious conversations is probably one of the only ways to set yourself up to win for a lifetime together, right? Yeah, if you want that.
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If you want to be a monk.
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And I know a lot of I know a lot of people who say to me, well, I enjoy the chase and the pursuit like I did and you pretty much want a new person every month, right?
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For for men at least, or or men that I know, where you kind of can get bored quickly.
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Someone entertains you for a few months, and then after that you need something new.
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You need the chase again, the drug.
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the chase again, and the drug again, which is a great definition, and you keep moving and moving and moving.
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And then the individual has to decide, I think the choice is, do I want a long-term relationship, or do I not?
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And there are gifts and pain points in both.
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Like there are really exciting, amazing things about dating someone new every few months, and there are really painful parts about it. Absolutely.
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And then there's loads of amazing things about being with someone for a long amount of time, or at least long for me is 10 years, because that's the longest I've ever done with someone.
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But then there are loads of challenging parts about that.
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And I think everyone just has to know what type of life they're signing up for. Uh-huh.
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And that's why we're having this conversation, because I don't think that you have to love one person for the rest of your life.
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I don't think someone should be forced to believe that's the only way life works.
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Especially because some people dedicate their life to someone, then that person leaves them, uh whether naturally or unnaturally.
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Someone leaves them because there's infidelity, or whatever there may be.
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And the point is that you can't force someone to say there is only one person.
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And I think often the institutions of the world, marriage and and religion often kind of enforced people to believe that we got married at 21, you got to be with this person for the rest of your life. Or you're a failure. Correct.
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made mistakes, or you something, something's wrong with you.
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And I think that's one of the things why people stay in a relationship for way too long, because they don't want to be something a made a mistake, or something wrong with them.
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So they try and try and try to make it work.
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And maybe they could have made it work, but they just weren't in alignment or something.
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But a lot of people I think are in shame when they get a divorce or they're in guilt or they're in sadness for this loss because it didn't work out, they weren't who they thought they were, something happened, right? Yeah. It's a lot.
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I've seen people have been through divorce, it's not fun.
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Any just a breakup is not fun.
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Even if you got married or not, people go through breakups and struggle for a long time it seems like.
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So, relationships can be messy for sure. Yeah.
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But what I have discovered in 1 year of uh of of our relationship Yeah.
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Uh well, 1 year 1 and 1/2 years of intense therapy starting a relationship.
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This has been something that I've never done, but for the last 10 years I've wanted to start a relationship in therapy.
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And me and Martha started that when we first started kind of hanging out.
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We weren't really dating for the first few months, we just kind of were hanging out and she was dating other people, I was dating other people or or just kind of out in the world.
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When we started getting more serious about it, I was like, "Listen, I've always wanted to do this and I think it's a deal breaker if we don't do this because I just want to make sure that we are setting ourselves up for success in terms of peace, joy.
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And for me, success in a relationship is two individuals independently living their lives and sharing their lives together. Mhm.
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Like she's gone for a couple weeks working on a project in a movie right now and I'm in Los Angeles doing my thing.
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I know with you and your wife, she might be gone or you might be traveling and sometimes you're doing it together and sometimes it's apart and having the freedom and flexibility to be yourself and also be in the relationship.
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I think that's for me what is success at this season of my life.
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Maybe in 10 years uh it'll look like something different. Yeah.
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And I think that's the point, right?
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Like seeing life as seasons because you have to ask the question like why do we think or why have you in this season decided to be exclusive to one person? Uh.
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And I think often we do that subconsciously.
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I don't think everyone intentionally thinks, "I feel I'm ready for a long-term relationship now."
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I don't think we do that.
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I think we assume that at one point you're meant to kind of get into one and settle down, rather than the conscious choice.
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Or you're consciously avoiding that. Yes.
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going, "No, no, no, no, no.
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The last thing I want to do is get married or settle down or be in a long-term relationship."
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And so, for me, it's like everyone has to sit there and look in the mirror and go, "Why do I want either right now? What serves me?
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And what serves my vision?
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And what serves what I'm trying to do?" That's what it is.
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I think when you go back to what is my vision for my life and what do I really want, what will support that vision at the highest level?
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If you're a single guy and your vision is to, you know, be really focused on your mission and your business and growth and your health, and if you're spreading your energy around 10 different women you're dating at once over a year or something, or however many you want to date, there is a lot of excitement to that lifestyle, but then you have to unwind and essentially, you know, reject every person that you're not going to be with. Yeah.
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So, there's like this unwinding, there's this hurt phase, there's this phase where you're, you know, having challenging conversations and detaching from that intimacy, those connections.
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And that's a lot of energy.
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It's a lot of effort that's pulling you from your health or your other relationships or building something deeper and more meaningful when you have 10 surface-level relationships as opposed to one deeper.
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I have different friends who have tried the whole polyamory thing, who have had multiple partners at the same time, who've had one person and then other people on the side.
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And I've never met one man who has successfully, I mean, had peace in their life, let's say, consistently over years doing that.
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There might be a year or two where Yeah. manageable, Yeah.
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but then it's like there's always a breakdown.
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Yeah, I've I've I've coached people and worked with people in that space and I've just found that it's hard enough With one person.
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Dealing with one person's emotions Yes. than to deal with two.
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And this is what we do as humans, which I find really interesting, is that we make everything extreme.
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So we're so scared of codependency. Mhm.
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So therefore we go to polyamory. Yeah.
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like, I don't want to be dependent on one person.
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So instead of figuring out the trauma as to why I become codependent, and instead of purifying and figuring out what it is that makes me codependent, I just believe that an external shell of being in a polyamorous relationship will solve that.
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That's often the mindset of people that I've met. Yes.
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saying that that's the only reason.
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I'm not saying that Please haters in the comments and the trolls like, I'm not saying this is the only reason and this is I'm just saying that the people I've spoken to, they've said to me that they were scared of being codependent, so they believed if they had more partners than they wouldn't be codependent.
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Yeah, or they'd get the excitement that they were missing in the relationship.
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They wanted the relationship that would give them support and peace and structure.
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But if they were missing the excitement, okay, let me go find the excitement somewhere else. Yeah.
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And for me that made a lot of sense in my 20s thinking that way because I was just like, oh, I don't know if you could do this with one person for a long time.
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That was probably one of my biggest fears, that I would be in love with someone or love someone consciously, but that sexual desire, that exciting feeling that happens the first whatever three to six nine months, I wouldn't have with the person once I was married with them, when I'd feel trapped. Yeah.
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And I had to really heal a lot of things from childhood that built that script or narrative to to realize that it's possible with conscious effort to create connection, chemistry, desire with one person if they're the right person in alignment also doing the conscious work.
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And that's where I said like I need to start therapy so that we have agreement so I can feel peaceful to be myself, my full expression, and dive into the relationship with curiosity and fun and excitement and desire in the relationship. Yeah.
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And so far, it's been extraordinary in the process of therapy before problems. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely.
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you did something that you guys did or if you did something like that where you had conscious conversations about kids or what happens with money and all these different things before marriage.
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Was that something you guys did?
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and I don't think they ever stop, but there's important ones to have before.
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And and before I get there, I think there was one thing about the um that I wanted to mention about polyamory is that it's it's not that basically there's no external shell that's going to solve your internal trauma and pain.
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So, whether you're with one person or whether you're with three or two or four people, neither of those are the cure.
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Like you can't say to someone like being with one person and being married to them is the cure for your pain and trauma.
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Or that if you have two people, then you won't be codependent.
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Like that doesn't solve it.
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And so you've got to figure out what is it again that I really want.
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And so for me and Radhi, like I all I can ever do is be honest about where I'm at and what I want at that time. In this moment.
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In this moment because that's going to change.
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if you made a promise on your wedding day about 10 years, 20 years?
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don't think it's a promise.
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I think it's an ongoing conversation Yes.
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that is always changing and evolving.
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It's not a commitment or a promise.
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It's not saying I am definitely up for this.
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It's saying I am open to this.
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I'm considering this or I'm close to this. This is not what I want.
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So So if someone knows they don't want to have children, but they never talk about that with someone who they know wants to have children because you're scared of raising that, that's unhealthy because that is going to come up one day.
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Or if your desire long-term is to live in another city or country, but you've not made someone aware that that's what you're considering.
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And so, I don't think this is about this is what I want and this is my promise.
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It's more just saying, "This is kind of how I imagine my life." Right.
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Like, this is kind of how I think about it. Things change. Things evolve.
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People change and all these different things.
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I I think Patrick Bet David said this.
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I can't remember where he said this, but I believe he said like every year around New Year's or Christmas, I think this was him, where he says he and his wife get together and say, "Do we want to do this for one more year?" Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
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And what worked this year? What didn't work?
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How can we make it better?
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And do we want to do this for one more year?
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As opposed to for the rest of our lives, like thinking all the way 50 years away Yeah.
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can seem kind of daunting for some people.
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And I think that's an interesting approach.
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And I think it could be like, you know, every day, what are we grateful for?
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Was there something that was off today that we can address so that it always is improving and growing and in that conversation of of growth.
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Every day, once a week, once a month, every year, like be having the conversation is the key.
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I think making a lifelong decision is a recipe for failure. What is it? Anything.
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Forget loving another person.
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What could you say that you're going to do every day for the rest of your life apart from shower and brush your teeth? And breathe. And breathe.
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Like, what is there that you could truly say hand on your heart that you know you'll be able to maintain?
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I don't think there's anything.
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So, to create that promise really starts and and I do something similar more regularly with Radi where I always check in with Radi and be like, "Is this the relationship you want?
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Is this going in the direction you want?" That's a great question. going in the way I want?
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Because if it isn't, are we willing to change?
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And if we're not willing to change, then where does this go? Mhm.
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And I think doing that regularly, every couple of weeks, every month, every 3 months, every quarter, turn it into a thoughtful process, to me that's really healthy because it gives you the incremental intricate moments to say, "Okay, well, I don't like how this is going."
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And there were days in our relationship, certain years, where I said to Radi, like I'm like, "This is not the relationship I want." Really?
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And this is what I'm willing to do for it, to change.
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Are you willing to do something?
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hard for her to hear that?
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I think This is after you were married?
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This is after we were married.
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I I think that we established those awkward conversations and uncomfortable conversations early.
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And so, it's continued to be easy to have them.
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But what I found is just the realness of a human, often her response will be, "Well, I need to think about that." Mhm. Like, I don't know. I'm unaware. I'm not sure.
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And that requires patience, and that requires waiting, and so many other uncomfortable feelings.
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But you have My point is, if you don't do that, you're basically living a lie for for years and years and years.
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And I always find this fascinating that when someone gets divorced, or when someone breaks up, everyone's surprised.
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Apart from those two people.
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oh, this has been 2 years in the making.
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know what's going on, right?
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And people may be shocked, and they may not be happy with it.
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But really deep down, you know you've just been going along with the default.
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And so, I find that having that conversation more regularly allows you to pivot.
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Or, for some people, part. Yes.
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But I don't think if you don't have that conversation, then the pivot or the part is less likely.
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My therapist, but also Martha and I are doing individual and then together at certain times, right?
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Which has been extremely helpful to have separation as well, where I can just continue to heal on my healing journey for my own stuff, she can do her own work, and then we can do relationship work together.
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It's really beautiful experiences.
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What our therapist and coach says is relationships should be about high engagement, low attachment.
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You know, high engagement, low attachment.
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And she's like, that's the hardest thing to do.
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That's like the ultimate challenge is high engagement, low attachment.
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And a lot of times in my past, speaking for myself, it was high engagement, high attachment, or low engagement, high attachment to the result, to it working out, and kind of giving in and abandoning myself just to like try to make it work.
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And when I learned how to heal from a lot of different stuff from previous relationships, and just learn how to heal my own childhood wounds, it was easier for me to make decisions and be less attached to the result, and just say, "This is my vision.
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This is the type of relationship I want."
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And so, with Martha and me early on, I was like, "Here is my vision. Here are my values.
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Here's the lifestyle I want to have Mhm.
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for at least the foreseeable next few years, and Yeah.
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the next 5 to 10 years, what I my intention is."
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By coming from that space, I was completely clear clear, and I was like, "There's a lot of things you may not like what I'm going to have to say, but I'm going to tell you 100% the truth.
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I'm not going to give in on my truth, and I'm not going to sacrifice.
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If you want me to change a bunch of things cuz it doesn't make you happy, then we're just not in alignment." Yeah.
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Thankfully, she loved all the things about my values, vision, and lifestyle moving forward.
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It's also kind of revealing all the things I'm not proud of from the past.
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It's like, "Oh, this is how I was in this relationship and this relationship."
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And I had to learn a lot.
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And and reveal that as well, to not act like I'm the perfect one.
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It it allowed for more of a conscious foundation to be started in our, you know, year of experience, where you guys 10 years, right?
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10 years you've been together?
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Next year will be 10 years.
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So, I've had, I don't know, 10 failed relationships in my my lifetime.
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You've had 10 years of a a beautiful relationship.
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Uh and and and you've had different things that you said in the first few years where you said, "This isn't the type of relationship where I wanted to be.
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Like, it needs to That's not what I'm was into and it's going in a different direction than what I wanted."
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What would you say for me, the biggest thing that I've learned was going into a new relationship, healing the wounds of the past, or being on the healing journey, and having conscious conversations early, and starting in therapy when there were no problems, has been extremely helpful for me Yeah. in 1 year. Yeah.
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What would you say at 10 year has been extremely helpful for you that you also wish you did in the first year, or maybe you did do it and you're still doing it?
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Yeah, I I think it's the continuation.
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It's like when you plant a seed, you water it, and you make sure you have sunlight, and you make sure the soil is good.
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When it becomes a tree, you still do all of those things.
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You don't stop watering it? just stop, right?
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Like, you don't stop like just caring for it.
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The care might evolve and change.
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Like, you don't need to water a tree in the same way cuz it's its roots are there, but you can't be completely negligent.
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I think the challenge we've created in society is that we believe that a long relationship is a successful one.
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And really, my definition of a relationship is, are we growing together?
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Are we thriving together?
26:28
And are we learning from each other? Yes.
26:33
And if we're not Say it one more time. Are we growing together?
26:35
Are we thriving together?
26:37
And are we learning from each other?
26:39
If I'm not doing that with you anymore, then if we're not And then the question is, are you willing to change something in order to do that?
26:46
And if you're not, and I think you have to be I think the challenge is, and I've heard you talk about this, I think the challenge is, no matter how long a relationship gets, you have to be open to the fact that you could get to a point with someone where there's no more growth, no more learning, and no more thriving.
27:03
And that's that low attachment is recognizing that just as in a business relationship, you wouldn't stay in business with someone if you weren't growing together, you weren't thriving together, and you weren't learning together.
27:16
Yeah, and you wouldn't keep your business open if you were in the negative year after year, you weren't having fun, it you didn't see opportunities for growth, you were in an industry that was eliminating year after year.
27:27
You'd be like, "Okay, maybe this had its season." Correct.
27:33
And it's time to find a new business to work in.
27:35
Now, I'm not I'm just not saying you need to say, "Well, maybe this person's had its season or this and this."
27:39
But, going back to the original conversation, can you be with one person for the rest of your life?
27:45
Can you love one person for the rest of your life and it be a healthy, overall healthy, enriching relationship?
27:52
And again, I think about a successful relationship where each individual is putting 100% into their own personal development and growth and mission and putting 100% into making the relationship healthy, conscious, joyful.
28:08
And that takes a lot of individual work.
28:10
100% on each individual to want to grow and develop. Yeah.
28:15
And if not, then it's going to be there's going to be challenges. Yeah.
28:19
And I think there's something that Esther Perel said, probably on both of our shows, which is there's a love story and there's a life story.
28:26
And there's a lot of people you can have a love story with, right?
28:28
Where you could fall in love with or date and have these romantic nights and these adventures, but they may not be a part of your life story. So powerful.
28:38
They may not have your values, your vision, the lifestyle you want to have in your life.
28:44
If a lot of those things don't line up, then maybe you're they're just a seasonal love story, not a longer season life story. Yeah.
28:51
And there's probably lesser people that could be a life story. Yes. Yeah.
28:57
And so I I don't I don't think that there's one person that you could be with for the rest of your life because, you know, again, something could happen in a partnership where uh if someone leaves this world, then you just going to say, "For the rest of my life, I'm not going to be in another relationship."
29:11
Like there's there might be a situation or if the relationship has just had its season.
29:17
And the person's not willing to keep working and investing in it, it's like that's tough.
29:21
And I just think that's okay.
29:24
And you're in therapy and they're just like, "No, I just don't care about the relationship anymore."
29:28
So, the other person's supposed to stay attached and give 100% when the other person's giving 0% for year and year and year?
29:34
I don't think that's the type of life that we were designed to live. Yes.
29:40
Just to show up cuz we made this a commitment to an attachment, I guess, but but that's controversial to say cuz when you make a commitment to marriage, we should try The intention should be to stay married.
29:51
That should be the intention.
29:54
But if one person is unwilling to and they keep breaking their commitments and they're not willing to get back on track or they do things over and over that are hurtful and they don't apologize and take responsibility, they don't take accountability, I don't think over a period of time someone needs to abandon themselves Totally.
30:11
to be taken advantage of and abused and used and someone breaking their promise and their commitments. Of course not.
30:16
And and that's one of the biggest issues with setting a commitment at an early stage in life when we're immature 18, 21.
30:26
even know yourself and you make these massive promises and I just Again, I go back to that like where else in your life do you make a decision and have to stick to it for 50, 60, 70 years?
30:35
And so, if you do want that with someone, make sure that you are checking in regularly, that you're renewing that.
30:42
Like, you're reconnecting with each other regularly because you don't get to have an amazing relationship with someone because of a promise or a commitment.
30:53
You get to do it because you renewed that promise and commitment on a daily, weekly, monthly basis, not because you want to extend the years you've been together, but because you want to extend the growth.
31:02
And so, for me, I think I I agree with you that no one should feel forced.
31:09
And really what marriage is, or what exclusivity is, or what commitment is, is we're going to try to grow together continuously.
31:17
And I would rather choose to grow with you than to grow in many different ways. a conscious choice.
31:24
And I think, listen, neither of us have kids yet. Yeah.
31:27
And so, I can already see all the comments of people saying, "Well, wait till you have kids, and you don't know what it's like when you have kids.
31:31
You have to sacrifice and give up so much."
31:35
And I And I think that's a great excuse for people, and I think it's a valid excuse, but I think it's an excuse that holds people back as well.
31:40
And I know a lot of married people with kids who are thriving, who are having fun every day, or consistently, who are enjoying their lives, who live independently in the marriage as well, and have their own time and flexibility, trust, all those things.
31:58
And year after year, they thrive with kids.
32:01
So, again, there are going to be more and more challenges, and that's why it's important for each individual to do the work consistently, independent of the relationship. Yeah.
32:10
To just become better humans, more emotionally evolved, emotionally intelligent, work on healing.
32:14
Whatever is triggering you, work on that healing journey, so that you're not as reactive with your partner or life. Yeah.
32:21
You're not bringing baggage to the relationship, you're more having a conscious conversation in the relationship. Yeah.
32:29
Like you said, when we make those decisions at 21, Or whatever. Or just earlier.
32:34
30, or even at 40, like I I was telling Martha this other day.
32:37
I was like, I don't know if I would have gotten married There's no way I'd be in a relationship if I got married at 25, 27, 29.
32:44
There's just no way cuz I've had to go through so much inner challenges to overcome in the last decade alone that just now at 39 do I feel like I finally figured out how to have peace inside Yeah. consistently. Yeah.
32:59
I would have messed up any relationship Totally.
33:03
without knowing the tools Totally.
33:05
on on how to just navigate.
33:05
And it doesn't mean I'm going to be perfect in this relationship for the rest of my life or whatever, but I'm probably going to make mistakes, but I feel like I have a better awareness of self. Yeah.
33:15
At 25, 27, 30, it's like that's hard.
33:18
I don't know how you did it 10 years ago.
33:19
Yeah, I mean nearly 10 years.
33:22
It was Yeah, it was next year will be 10 years.
33:24
four years of monk training where you were just there's I mean there's a bit of everything, right?
33:27
Like there's the There was some maturity, but now when I look back, I go I There was also parts of it that were luck.
33:34
And when I say luck, I mean universal Mhm.
33:37
divine intervention and like I was fortunate that it was Radhi.
33:43
There were lots of parts of it where it was like oh, like actually I wasn't as mature as I thought, but it somehow happened that we were compatible too.
33:51
And You know, there's there's But she was healthy in a certain ways that supported you.
33:56
And that's There's a lot of fortune in that, too.
33:58
Like I don't think it's it's not fair for me to say that it was all didactic and perfectly like masterminded because I was so advanced. That's That's not true.
34:08
I think there was some maturity, but there was also a lot of immaturity, but that got balanced out by some of her gifts.
34:13
And and I think the point is that you just can't ever be scared to look in the mirror.
34:19
You can't be scared to ask those questions.
34:21
You can't ever stop doing that because that's where it all goes wrong.
34:25
I think that I have grown more significantly being committed to one woman than I would have if I wasn't.
34:34
So, that's my perspective.
34:38
been single for the last 10 years, Correct.
34:40
and say single or having different surface-level relationships, not being committed to one person for 10 years, where would you be in your life right now if you could just hypothetically Yeah, and I don't think it's an external success or metric of some sort of financial or, you know, physical situation.
35:02
It's more that I believe that being in a committed relationship has taught me skills and qualities that I wouldn't have Mhm. if I wasn't.
35:12
So, I'll give an example. Yeah.
35:15
One of my favorite ones is the ability to self-validate.
35:22
As opposed to the other person giving validation.
35:25
So, I believe that if I was single for the past 10 years, I would have used other people to validate myself because I would have been able to go to different people for different forms of validation.
35:36
Someone telling me, "Jay, you're this, you're that." Whatever it is.
35:40
When you're committed to one person, chances are they don't validate you sometimes, well, at least in my case, and that trained me in the ability to go inward and validate myself for what I care about myself.
35:52
I'm assuming Radi's not intentionally not validating you, but you're just in life and conversation and, you know, you you wanted something, but maybe she wasn't being aware of it or whatever, right?
36:02
Yeah, the point is you don't get to just solve it by going and finding it somewhere else.
36:05
And and so, I think that's what I mean that a lot of the time when you don't get what you want from one person, you can just go find a fix somewhere else.
36:13
But, that stops you from growing in doing it for yourself.
36:17
So, that's one of the big ones. Yeah.
36:19
another one that I'd say that I only got through being in a committed relationship was the recognition that effort and contribution to a relationship was not always visible.
36:33
So, what I mean by that is often in a relationship, we think of the breadwinner or the person who pays the bills as being the way someone contributes.
36:42
Or if someone cleans and cooks, that's the way someone contributes.
36:48
When you get into a relationship for a long time, you start to realize there are emotional contributions to a relationship.
36:53
There are spiritual contributions to a relationship, which you don't get to see when your relationship is purely physical. Right.
37:01
And so now when I look at relationships, I'm like, "Wow, like Radhi is contributing to this relationship, of course financially in that, but also in this spiritual and emotional way." Yes.
37:10
And in my limited understanding, if I was just moving around, I wouldn't know if that was even possible.
37:15
So, I think I mean those are just a couple, there's so many, but I believe that I have grown more and learned more about myself than I would have if I wasn't, because I think I would have found a quick fix for most of my problems. Oh, everything.
37:29
If it if it was like, you know, if I was just jumping from relationship to relationship, or we're just dating and not actually being committed to anyone, when there was a moment of anything getting hard, you just be like, "Ah, I don't want to deal with this.
37:42
I'm going to go to the next person and have fun and just make it light and make it interesting and go after the chase and get that that high again.
37:49
When I started the relationship with Martha, I made a conscious decision, realizing that I was the problem for every previous relationship, that I was the common denominator for things not working out.
38:00
I said, "Let me try something different.
38:02
Let me not dive into what I've always done, which is the sexual chemistry first, because that clouded my mind from seeing the person fully or seeing more of the person, I should say.
38:14
And that decision to remove that for the first, you know, months of us kind of seeing each other and getting to know each other, was so powerful for me cuz I was like, "Do I want to be I remember asking some friends this in the past.
38:25
I go, "If you guys didn't have sex, would you still be together?"
38:29
And a lot of them were like, "No." Mhm.
38:30
Okay, so remove sex from the relationship or remove sexual chemistry from the relationship, would you want to spend quality time with this person consistently?
38:39
Are you adding value to their their life?
38:40
Are they adding value to your life?
38:42
Another person said, you know, could you spend 10,000 meals with this person?
38:47
Because that's what it's going to be like if you're getting married and you're with them for a long time.
38:52
10,000 meals is it interesting enough?
38:55
And when we jump into from my personal experience, when you jump into sexual chemistry first, the foundation is usually a little shakier.
39:04
And also, if you're doing that with multiple people, it's hard to build a strong foundation with one.
39:09
And you're never really getting that piece.
39:10
It's kind of there's always something shaky. Yeah. Right?
39:14
You know, it's like Well, I mean, that's I mean, the studies show that, too, that when you engage in a physical relationship with someone, the chemicals that are released after sex make you feel closer to them when you're not actually closer to them. 100%.
39:28
So, you haven't really done the work for deep value-based intimacy, but you're feeling the high Feels close. chemically.
39:36
And you can feel that with people again and again and again.
39:37
And that's why we get more attached to people that we have sex with in that way.
39:43
And so, for me, obviously, through the monk training, like, that was a big part of it.
39:48
I mean, celibacy was a huge part of monk training, and it was all for mental clarity so you can make better decisions. Right.
39:54
It's not about saying that you're never having sex.
39:56
It's about the idea that can I make better decisions without being clouded from the sexual chemicals?
40:03
by a chemical release that is making me believe something.
40:06
And I think that's what people don't That's what people underestimate is that Do you want to make a decision based on reality, or do you want to make a decision based on chemicals that are being exposed to you in a particular moment which aren't reality.
40:21
And I think everyone would hold their hand up anyone who's in the comment section right now like would say I have been in a relationship where we had a terrible relationship but the sex was great.
40:29
I think everyone would agree that they've been in a relationship there was an argument we leaned on sex and got back to like a yeah to a foundation, right? Yeah, exactly.
40:37
And and they know that that was toxic and unhealthy because they dealt with pain, they dealt with abuse, they dealt with manipulation, they dealt with trauma because the sex was good. Right.
40:49
That's why I think if you eliminate that at least in the beginning of a new relationship To learn.
40:54
to learn you're going to learn to make better decisions.
40:56
Mental clarity like you said is this person's behavior matching their words? Mhm.
41:01
Do they have the same values that I have?
41:03
Are we in alignment on a lot of these things that we want?
41:07
Or do they do certain things that I'll just never want to be around?
41:11
You know, for me it was very important like I've I've never been drunk in my life.
41:15
It's not something I do but I can be around it.
41:17
It's just like it's I don't want to be around it all the time. Yeah. You know what I mean?
41:22
Like if you want to have wine once a month like I'm cool with that.
41:25
If you're drinking every night three glasses of wine it's just a deal break it's just not for me.
41:30
And there might be something that uh you know in the past if I if a person wanted to be with me but I was like well I eat sugar all day that'd be a deal breaker for them or something. And whatever it is. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
41:40
And it's figuring out like what are the things in alignment that you both want to see if you can be in a great relationship to see if you can be in a thriving relationship because human beings are just messed up. Yeah.
41:53
Yeah, and and if you're trying to like obviously if you're just someone who's like I just want to sleep around Yeah.
41:59
you know, mess around, have fun, whatever. Sure, that's fine.
42:01
But if you're in the position in your life right now where you're like I want to be in a long-term relationship then it's a healthy thing to consider because you want to have your best decision-making capabilities.
42:12
And I also think a lot of people are getting into relationships when they feel lonely.
42:15
And that is a scary thing to do.
42:17
To be seeking out a relationship because you feel alone.
42:19
One of the greatest gifts I gave myself was learning how to go take myself out on a date.
42:26
Go to dinner, go to lunch, go to a movie alone, and learn to enjoy my own company.
42:31
It was so hard to do because I didn't enjoy my company for so long.
42:34
I had too many negative conversations with myself.
42:39
And I had to learn how to love myself in a conscious way and a healthy way.
42:45
So that I could be happy alone first. Yes.
42:48
And then not abandon myself in relationship.
42:51
And it's like when the point when I was like, "God, I don't want to be in a relationship."
42:54
That's when Martha showed up.
42:56
I was like, "You know, I'm good. I'm like so happy alone. I love my life. I've got my business. I got my friends. I am good." That's when she came in. I was like, "Damn it.
43:06
I don't want to be around you right now."
43:08
But it's But I can do it because I can I have low attachment from the beginning.
43:14
And I don't need this to make me happy. Yes.
43:17
I think a lot of people get into relationships because they need that to make them feel complete, happy.
43:23
And I think that's also a foundation of struggle when we come from that space. Yeah.
43:27
The reason why what you said is so important is that that doesn't stop when you move in with someone. So I think we feel that.
43:34
And And I think this is a pressure that's created in relationships, especially in the early days, where people expect to spend all their time together.
43:42
And if you're spending all your time together, then where is the time to grow independently so that you can improve each other's lives?
43:50
And so if every night you go home and you put a show on together and you watch it, and that's your way of spending time together, you're not investing in or growing the relationship.
44:00
And then 3 months down the line, you're wondering, "Why don't we feel any chemistry or any spark or any compatibility?"
44:05
Because you both haven't grown independently, so you haven't been able to grow together.
44:10
And so that's not something that stops that going on a date on your own or treating yourself.
44:16
That never stops and it shouldn't stop.
44:18
And I think one of the biggest challenges is is that people say, "Oh, well, if you don't want to spend time with me if we're together, then that means there's something wrong." Uh-huh.
44:25
And so there's this insecurity that if you don't want to spend every moment with me, then you don't think I'm good enough.
44:32
Or if you don't text me every single moment when we're not apart when we're apart, that means that you don't love me.
44:39
Bringing me back flashbacks now.
44:39
Yeah, and it's and it's like and when you live in that, it's like, "Well, wait a minute, you've missed the point that if they're always with you, then they can't bring anything to you." Yeah.
44:49
I've heard a couple of different people talk about this concept.
44:51
I think Esther Perel was one of them and then Rob Bell talks about the space in between the time you're together is where you the love deepens. Mhm.
45:00
It's like you can deepen it when you have space apart from each other and you can miss each other.
45:06
You can think about the conversation you had.
45:09
You can think about the activities, the games you were playing, the intimacy, those conversations, those moments.
45:14
It's the space in between that creates more harmony.
45:17
I think Yo-Yo Ma talks about like harmony is in between the notes. Mhm. Right?
45:22
It's like there's It's the same thing with connection and love.
45:27
You know, if I spent every moment with you, I might be like, "Uh, I need some more time apart."
45:30
But it's because I only see you once every couple weeks or once a month, I get it so excited about that time together, right?
45:37
Not that I wouldn't want to see you every day, but you know what I mean?
45:40
It's like having time to to be an independent human being doing your activities, doing the things you love, will I think support you in staying together longer. Yeah.
45:50
And the couples that you know and that I know that have been together for 20, 30, 40 years, at least a lot of them I feel like have that one day a week where they're with their friends.
46:00
Have that time where they go on a trip alone or with other other people in their life.
46:05
They learn other activities.
46:05
They go to workshops together, but also alone Yeah.
46:09
on things that they can add value to the relationship and to themselves.
46:15
Feel independent, but also be committed. Yeah.
46:17
And I think that is a huge thing to set yourself up to be a healthy, conscious, thriving relationship long-term. Yeah.
46:26
If you choose to be with one person.
46:28
If you choose to be with one person, there's a couple of things you have to think about.
46:32
The first is what do you actually enjoy to do together?
46:34
So, Radhi and I discovered that going out to dinner was okay.
46:39
Watching a movie together was okay, but what we really loved was experiences.
46:44
What we really loved was doing activities together.
46:48
What we really loved was going to workshops together.
46:50
So, whether it was a cooking class, or whether it was pottery, or whether it was uh tracking with gorillas that we just did right now, or whether it was going on a hike together.
46:58
Like, it was doing something active together.
47:00
And you know, even in our relationship as as friends, like we were talking about this.
47:03
Like, when we set our values to this yeah, all of that.
47:06
fun, fitness, and friendship.
47:07
And we've decided that we want to make sure that we are going out for dinner, but we also want to play some sports.
47:12
We've been playing pickleball together, or our version of pickleball that we invented. Uh We're going on hikes.
47:16
We're doing different things, activities together.
47:19
Yeah, and like that's what we've realized we like to do.
47:21
And I think that's a really important thing that if you want to be with someone long-term, you have to figure out what you want to do together.
47:28
And then, going even a step further, if you're really going to be with someone long-term, your relationship has to have a purpose beyond each other. Yeah.
47:37
The goal of your relationship can't be how do we stay together?
47:43
Like, the goal of the relationship is how do we serve together? How do we give together?
47:46
How do we help our community together?
47:49
Like, couples who have that ability to expand their radius of care and compassion, that's what ultimately goes to that stage.
47:59
Couples that stay together serve together.
48:01
I think that's a great thing.
48:02
You know, I think in the fitness community they're like families that work out together stay together type of thing, but I think couples that stay together are the ones that are serving together.
48:10
And I know you talk about this and I know this is going to be in your next book as well.
48:13
This kind of concept of the different levels of relationship of okay, you're in the beginning to know dating stage, then you're in the commitment stage, then you're in marriage stage and then it's like what is the next stage? It's being in service.
48:28
It's figuring out ways to serve your family, your friends, your community in the ways that make sense for you.
48:35
That's what going to keep people together long-term.
48:36
And I think when we stop serving the relationship and we stop serving others around the relationship, it's probably going to have more challenges. Yeah. Yeah.
48:48
You know, maybe you can make it last and maybe you have some good times, but I feel like you're going to have more challenges to overcome, which is going to make you say one person's not for me.
48:56
Like this this relationship's not working.
48:59
I need a different relationship. Yeah. And maybe that's true.
49:01
Maybe that relationship wasn't supposed to last, but I think it's and I I'm so excited for your next book because I've been getting the behind the scenes from you on it, but I feel like you're going to give people this foundation of how to set yourself up at the different stages of a committed relationship.
49:17
And and I don't think there's anything wrong with being single and dating. all. Yeah. Dating lots of people.
49:24
I know a guy right now, he's single and he's going on dates every week with different people, taking people out to dinner and having beautiful interesting conversations.
49:31
And what Matthew Hussey says, our friend, is kind of like eliminating people that aren't the one for them right now. Yeah.
49:38
It's like I got to go meet a bunch of people, have experiences to see who I, you know, don't want to be with as well.
49:44
And I think there's a season for that.
49:46
And I think when we get into relationship, we just need to be conscious of why am I getting this relationship?
49:52
You know, am I dependent on this to make me happy?
49:54
If so, I just think that's going to be a recipe for failure.
49:56
But, being conscious about entering a relationship and conscious about growing a relationship.
50:03
There's so much you learn when you're single, and there's so much you learn when you're in a relationship. Yeah.
50:08
And that's actually the question.
50:10
Do I want How do I want to learn right now?
50:14
Like, how do I want to learn right now?
50:15
Do I want to learn by meeting lots of people and learning in that way and dealing with what comes with that?
50:18
Or do I want to learn in this way?
50:19
And I think everything in life is a simply a learning experience.
50:24
And in this season of my life Yeah.
50:28
the one of the biggest values for me is peace. Yeah. Inner peace, right?
50:30
And you can't have peace if you're And I for years, I would interview on camera and off camera older men who were successful in business or in their careers or who had kind of reached the top of their their industry, and I would ask them questions like about being single or about having, you know, being married, about being with one person, or do they have open relationships? Just curious.
50:57
And there was not one man who was like 50, 60, 70 years old who was peaceful and fulfilled with multiple women at the same time or kind of trying to manage that, you know, that energy.
51:11
The ones that had peace, which again is a value of mine, is having peace cuz I feel like peace helps us create mental clarity, which I think is important for you as well, which helps us have more energy towards our mission. Yeah.
51:22
And uh I haven't met one 60, 70-year-old man who was like, "I had five girlfriends the whole time and I was peaceful." Mhm.
51:30
And so, I just again, again, what's your value? What do you want?
51:33
If you want adventure and fun and you can't have all that and peace.
51:39
There's going to be some letting go. So, Yeah.
51:41
I really like, and this has been my biggest takeaway from today is that you brought it back to values.
51:46
If your value is experimentation Mhm.
51:49
and freedom freedom freedom from commitment then that's a beautiful life and I'm not and again, I'm not saying you should do either or.
51:58
I do you know, it's it's all based on your values. Absolutely.
52:01
And you just said your value is peace. My my value is purpose.
52:02
I want to be committed to my purpose.
52:06
And I had a really open and honest conversation with a friend recently. He asked me a question.
52:10
He said, Jay, like, you know, how do you deal with uh temptation and desire you know, everything else.
52:19
And we had a really honest vulnerable conversation man to man and I said to him that for me one of my biggest values in life is history and loyalty. Mhm.
52:27
I like long-term friendships because then you can look back and look at how far you've come. That's cool.
52:35
And you can't do that from short-term desire. Yeah. I like loyalty.
52:38
I love the idea of like you've been loyal to a friend, a person, a partner and you can look back at how what you've been through. That's cool.
52:48
And so when I look at my life, I love that me and you have memories from being in New York together, being in LA together, doing a project together.
52:57
And in my romantic relationship, it's the same thing.
53:00
It's like I've been with this woman when I had nothing, when I was broke. Pretty cool.
53:05
When I was at the like and I and I value that, right?
53:08
And someone may say, Jay, that's a little soft.
53:09
Like I don't value that at all. And that's cool. Like I respect that.
53:13
You may say you don't value history, you value a one-night stand. And that's great.
53:17
Like there's nothing wrong with that, but I think you've got to know what you value and I love that you value peace and I love that you equate a committed relationship to peace. And some Yeah.
53:28
And some people might say, well, every relationship I've been in is stressful, so I'm going to value being single and having surface conversations or surface interactions of intimacy that aren't scary to go deeper, right?
53:39
Where there could be heartbreak or pain, or frustration, or whatever it is.
53:45
And that's your season, you know, that's your way you value.
53:47
But I do I definitely value intimacy, connection.
53:52
There's nothing worse than accomplishing like your greatest goals, and then being in a hotel room by yourself, and being like, Yeah.
54:00
I mean, you know, who am I going to call?
54:02
Who am I going to call to celebrate this with?
54:03
There's no one like with you in the journey, and you with them. Exactly.
54:08
It's really cool to be there for each other.
54:10
And something I value with, you know, Martha being inspired by what she's creating, and she's inspired by what I'm creating, the mutual respect and inspiration.
54:17
And I know you and Radha are the same way, so. Powerful conversation. is great.
54:23
Awkward therapy part two.
54:25
If you guys enjoyed this, leave a yes in the comments below.
54:30
Make sure you subscribe to Jay Shetty's podcast on Apple, Spotify, on YouTube, subscribe on YouTube, all of our social media.
54:39
And let us know which part of this you enjoyed the most, and leave a comment of what you'd like us to talk about on the next episode of this awkward therapy conversation.
54:50
Also, the call to action is to find someone to have the same conversation with. Ask them this question.
54:56
Can you be with one person for the rest of your life?
54:59
Send them this audio or this video, and have them watch or listen to this, and then have the discussion with them shortly after.
55:06
And let us know your thoughts, we'd love to hear your thoughts on this.
55:09
Thank you so much for watching, everyone.
55:11
I want to make sure that you think about what is your value right now in relationships.
55:19
Like think about it, whether you're single, whether you're in a relationship, whether you've been married, whether you've just broken up, what is the current value in your life that you're looking for, and what does that require?
55:29
Does that require you to be single?
55:31
Does that require you to be in relationship?
55:32
And what type of relationship?
55:33
Leave your value in the comments below, let us know what your values are.
55:37
Let us know topics that you want us to dive into deeper.
55:39
Maybe there was something that we didn't quite get into and you're like, "Please, please, please talk a bit more about that." We will do that.
55:45
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55:53
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55:57
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55:59
Make sure that you go and find someone to share this conversation with and have your awkward conversation of your own.
56:05
Like we want you to get awkward.
56:06
So, thank you for listening and watching us today and we'll see you on the next one.
56:10
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56:15
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56:25
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