0:00
If your company is unsuccessful, any name is a bad name.
Search this video
0:02
And if your company is successful, any name kind of grows on people and becomes a good name. Like think about Apple.
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That's such a strange company name. It's just a fruit.
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Like imagine calling a company banana.
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[music] Welcome to Access the Tech Industries inside conversation, part of the Vox Media Podcast Network.
0:23
And as always, I'm here with my lovely co-host, Ellis Hamburger.
0:28
Ellis, how are you doing? >> I'm well. [music] I'm well.
0:31
Uh, it's a little bit of a rainy day here in LA, which means I'm in a really bad mood. >> You seem okay.
0:37
Do you have a good weekend? >> Yeah, I'm fine.
0:39
Yeah, we were in Lagouna Beach with the kids, uh, as I described to you, babysitting/butlering for a 2-year-old and a four-year-old.
0:50
So, yeah, nothing like starting Monday tire than uh than Friday.
0:51
[laughter] >> I just worked all weekend.
0:56
I'm still in uh indie media hustle land. Hustleb bro land. >> Yeah.
1:02
How does it feel to uh be out on your own hustling when you're the your own boss? >> Yeah. Uh it's weird. Yeah.
1:08
I can't blame a boss anymore.
1:10
Not that I really did that before, but yeah, it's uh it's weird to know the buck stops with yourself.
1:16
>> I mean, you seem to be a pretty demanding boss, Alex.
1:18
I think you've been working every weekend since uh since you started sources >> to a pretty high uh ethic, I guess.
1:24
I just it feels everything feels so important right now.
1:29
I just I'm so excited by what we're doing both like with the pod and then with sources, my newsletter and uh I just I just want it all, man.
1:36
I just >> I'm like so excited about AI right now.
1:40
[laughter] >> It's amazing.
1:42
>> The possibilities are like endless, [laughter] >> man.
1:47
We launched a show a month ago. Isn't that wild? >> It is. It is.
1:51
Uh, never thought I'd have a show.
1:56
>> Well, >> but now look at us. >> Now you do.
1:58
Now we're soon to be famous podcasters.
2:01
Um, and by the way, our guest today is Carl Pay, the CEO of Nothing.
2:06
Really fascinating company.
2:06
the first indie smartphone company of the last decade that's thriving uh and growing and doing a lot of interesting things both on hardware and software.
2:15
Uh else you worked with Carl a while ago, right?
2:20
>> Yeah, I think it was like almost a couple years ago at this point.
2:22
We just kind of had some highlevel strategic convos around the time when I started meaning >> just some highlevel strategic convos, you know, some stratey. [laughter] >> Yeah. No comment. No comment.
2:34
Yeah, it was a while ago at this point.
2:35
I guess I forgot to ask him uh if he thought it was all or if it was actually valuable.
2:42
>> Well, >> I guess we could save that for the next episode. >> Yeah.
2:45
Uh but yeah, no, I guess back to the pod like yeah, we we've had a wild month.
2:50
Uh we decided to do this together in the spring and then we were like h we'll figure out when we're going to do it and then uh a bunch of stuff kind of lined up and then we went from like no name to launching the show in a month and now we've done four episodes and it feels like time is a blur.
3:07
Like do do you feel like it's I don't know.
3:10
Do you feel like it's been um fast or do you feel like it's been this has been a grind?
3:17
Yeah, I mean I never imagined I would be getting back into the content grind, but I do think weekly is certainly better than daily.
3:24
I mean, how of how often are you doing your newsletter? Like, I do not envy you.
3:29
Like, every time Sam Alman says something, you have to like wake up in the middle of the night and start writing in your notebook or whatever you do.
3:38
>> I don't know if you have any like agentic alarm or like some guy that walks in and smacks you awake whenever uh >> I'm working on it.
3:44
>> I'm working on it. just a bucket of cold water pouring on me when Sam all >> I mean it's it's nice though for better for worse it it forces you to stay up to date to keep those relationships going keep those opinions opinionated knowing what's happening but yeah I mean hey I'll say this is better than the
4:04
Business Insider weekly slideshow meeting uh that I used to have to do every single week that was a weekly grind that that I do not miss at all >> oh man a different era yeah um so yeah you're going start seeing us kind of re-sharing on socials some clips from past episodes just since we're still a new show. We're growing and um you know
4:21
We're growing and um you know we've had Zuck Dylan Field, AI Schiffman, the friend CEO whose billboards I am seeing more and more now everywhere in Los Angeles uh and Ryzen Martin most recently uh from Hux creator of Notebook LM which I got a lot of great feedback on that episode by the way.
4:39
I really people loved her sharing her story with us which I thought was really cool of her to do. >> Yeah.
4:43
I mean it's very clear that if you are down to share yourself as a founder uh people look up to you they want to learn to be like you to have success like you.
4:54
I mean I feel like one of the clips that that resonated most was Rise's moment of uncertainty at 4 a. m.
5:02
about should I leave Google?
5:02
I grew up uh you know uh without much now I'm making good money at Google.
5:08
How could I leave to start my own thing?
5:10
and her husband was just kind of this rock for her, supporting her in doing that.
5:14
And I mean, that's that's what you like to see, you know, going viral online, not just shrimp Jesus, right?
5:20
Like the motivational stuff, the fun stuff, the moments of like people actually being fragile, real people, especially when founders often just kind of pretend that they're perfect and bulletproof.
5:33
>> So, yeah, it was nice to uh have that moment on the show. >> Yeah.
5:36
If you think you're perfect, don't come on Access.
5:38
Yeah, that's our that's our new motto.
5:40
Uh, no, we're also in the fortunate position where people are so interested in the show and what we're doing that we're pretty booked out.
5:47
We've got amazing guests lined up through uh December at this point.
5:48
I don't want to tease too many, but I do think there's one we want to tease because uh she launched this last week and you had a pretty big hand in that.
6:00
So, why don't you talk about it? >> Yeah. Yeah. Uh her name is Eugenia.
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uh she was the founder of replica uh the OG AI relationship uh service and now she has created something new called Wabby and so we kind of worked together on the positioning and also the new teaser website so I think the story was a cool one I mean it's certainly
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certainly a dangerous one with how how uh sensitive Apple has been about alternative apps and app stores over the years I know that was something that was like very danger dangerous to navigate in the Snapchat years, you know, with with creating apps inside of apps. Apple
6:36
Apple really doesn't like when you create apps inside of apps.
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Um, and so anyway, Wabby allows you to plug in your your uh contacts from your life, you know, whether it's your email, your calendar, other aspects of yourself, and create little generative apps.
6:54
Um, and I think the thing that was kind of most exciting to me about it is that they are simple, but on on the other hand, it's like when they can be simple, it means that you don't need 500 people to make a new app and there's no ads, there's no crazy notifications, there's no stupid growth hacks, there's no uh features in every corner of the user interface that you don't actually want.
7:16
And so it in some ways lines up, I think, with with Carl's philosophy as well that we're going to talk about with the new essential AI operating system.
7:26
A lot more things on your phone, including apps, kind of generated in real time or proactively for you.
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And uh I think Wabby is is heading kind of in a similar direction. Um we'll see though.
7:40
I mean, are those apps going to be good quality?
7:42
Uh do they actually work?
7:44
you know, uh, remains to be seen.
7:48
>> Two things I'm reminded of, the early Apple, there's an app for that.
7:51
Now, it finally seems like there's an app for everything, maybe with AI, right?
7:55
And then the other thing I'm thinking of is like Wabishabi.
7:58
How how wabishabi inspired is this company? >> It's funny.
8:03
I think spiritually, but aesthetically, maybe not so much.
8:05
I think a lot of shiny a lot of shiny orbs.
8:09
Um whereas I think if you know you were to hear it's wobbishabi you're like oh these apps are made of wood and clay with nice patas and aged cracks inside them. But no it's not that.
8:20
I think it's more the uh the spirit of life changing I would say as it goes as opposed to you know an app that's maybe set in stone because you can customize uh these things and and remix them and whatnot.
8:33
So yeah, I mean it's interesting.
8:33
Most people's home screens, I mean certainly my home screen, the only new apps that have entered my home screen in years are like the daycare app that is hate to say the worst app that's ever been made uh that now has has a spot on my home screen. But yeah, we'll see.
8:48
I mean, as Carl and and Eugenia both say, the apps we all use are increasingly made for a billion people, not for us.
8:57
So what does that software landscape start to look like when things can be a bit more bespoke?
9:04
Whether that is >> uh in the hands of you know everyday people who are creating apps now that they can vibe code them on their own or the OSS are doing it for them.
9:11
I mean I think that'll be interesting.
9:14
>> Well speaking of literally everything we've been talking about uh apps on home screens Sam Alman tweeting person >> are you about to do it again?
9:21
Are you about to bring up OpenAI again?
9:25
Right before we started recording, uh, I I got an alert that, uh, Sam says >> So, you do have the alerts. >> I do.
9:32
Of course, I have the alerts.
9:32
Um, I got an alert that Chat GPT is getting porn later this year.
9:37
Uh, I think Sam's calling it erotica. But you know what?
9:41
I think I finally understand what all the GPUs they're trying to get are for, is they're about to light up personalized porn at scale in your chatbot.
9:51
Well, that's the joke, isn't it?
9:54
That porn's always on the cutting edge. >> Yeah.
9:57
>> The Blu-ray verse HD DVD.
10:01
Uh, we know who won that war. Porn did >> and Blu-ray.
10:05
[laughter] >> Anyway, that's all I got to say about that.
10:09
I just thought that was pretty interesting.
10:10
But, uh, >> it is it is kind of like a funny tension, isn't it?
10:13
I mean, if you look at like when Tumblr was acquired, they have to delete all their porn, then they have to add it back.
10:19
Are we being kind of puritanical about it or are we saying, "Oh, it's about internet freedom."
10:26
I mean, it's one of those things that people just can't seem to make up their minds about. >> Yeah.
10:31
Well, everyone who's concerned about the AI bubble, I think turning porn on and chatbt might pay for everything.
10:36
So, I think we're going to be okay. >> It just may. It just may.
10:38
Especially when your porn operating system is optimized for all of your kinks proactively.
10:47
[laughter] I mean, there's no reason to believe that isn't coming at this point, right? >> Yeah.
10:52
I could have made a joke there, but I'm not going to.
10:54
Um, well, okay, let's get into this conversation with Carl from nothing.
11:02
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12:18
[music] Carl, we're so excited to have you.
12:22
It feels crazy to start a phone company.
12:27
these days and so I would love to know why you did it and also a little bit about your backstory.
12:33
How did you come to being the CEO of nothing?
12:35
Is creating a competitor to Apple and Google something that you always thought about or was this something that uh came came later in life?
12:45
Give us give us the rundown.
12:47
>> Yeah, maybe I'll start with my uh my background and how I got here.
12:50
Um, now that you asked this question, I remember when I was like super young, maybe 13, 14, and uh, I had a Nokia 3310 and I was thinking all these phone companies, like if I was a manager at one of these companies, I would make some different decisions and I'll make it better.
13:08
So, I think that's kind of where uh, where a lot of it started.
13:13
And, um, but I I do have to say Apple was also a big inspiration for me.
13:17
Um, I grew up in Stockholm, Sweden.
13:20
I remember I was the first kid in the in my school to have the iPod.
13:24
And when I got it, all the boys in the in the school were like standing around me looking at it.
13:29
Um, I also got the first iPhone.
13:32
It was super complicated because it was a AT&T exclusive, so I had to have a friend in the US buy it for me and I think pay a $450 cancellation fee and then jailbreak it so I can use my non USM card.
13:44
Um, but I think these kind of early experiences with cool technology made me really excited about this industry.
13:53
And you know, back then everything was progressing so quickly.
13:57
Every generation was much better than the previous one. Okay.
14:02
So, what happened with my iPod was I loved it, but it broke.
14:04
It broke one week after the warranty ended.
14:06
And back then, Apple didn't have like official business in Sweden.
14:12
They were selling through a distributor.
14:13
So, I emailed the distributor.
14:15
I'm like, "Hey, I'm a kid.
14:17
I, you know, my iPod broke just one week after the warranty ended. Um, can you help me?
14:22
And they said, "Unfortunately, according to our policy, you only have one one year warranty."
14:26
Um, so I couldn't really afford another one.
14:29
And so I got kind of pissed off cuz like it's only one week.
14:33
And uh um that summer I I traveled back to China with my parents to visit relatives and I went to the computer market and my impression of Chinese products were like really low quality because that's what you see in the news um or what I saw in the news while I was growing up.
14:53
But I found this MP3 player that I really liked.
14:55
Um and it wasn't worse than the iPod. It was called the Mazu.
15:00
They're not really around anymore.
15:03
Um, when I went when I went home to Sweden, I created this fan site for uh for this company and we became their kind of global fan site.
15:10
We had 70,000 users on our community and um one time when LA Times wanted to write a profile for this company, I was the kind of community fan representative talking about their company.
15:26
So after university, they actually invited me to join them to help build their international business and um or originally I wanted to go to YC or at least apply for YC but I'm also quite lazy so I had the you know that offer in my hand so I just said hey look I I love these electronic products as well and this is a company I like.
15:51
So so I I I moved to China.
15:53
Um this was back in 2011.
15:56
And that's how my career in uh in the smartphone industry started.
15:59
I worked a little bit there.
16:01
I joined another company called OPPO and OPPO started a new brand called OnePlus.
16:05
I was the co-founder for OnePlus and built out their uh international uh business.
16:11
We grew that business to about $3 billion in seven years.
16:15
Uh and twothirds of the revenue was international.
16:20
And I was really lucky to have that experience because when we started that company, I was only 24.
16:24
And you know, getting to use their supply chain and their capital and make a lot of stupid mistakes and learning from them.
16:33
Um, I'm really grateful I got that opportunity.
16:37
Um but after seven years we were kind of doing similar things over and over again every year because the business model was like buying components from all our suppliers and just packaging it and kind of selling it and building the software.
16:55
um it was making money and I was making money but it just felt like very repetitive and you know sometimes I zoom out and look at the rest of my life and I just couldn't really imagine um retiring still doing that same thing because I feel like I need something independent that I can really steer because I don't just want to integrate other people's technology and package other people's technology.
17:22
I also want the chance to define how people use technology in the future.
17:27
So, um, long story short, that's, you know, why I left after seven years and, uh, started a new company. Nothing.
17:36
>> I'm looking at the Wikipedia for the Mazu and this thing is cool looking. Wow. Uh, very retro.
17:40
That's a That's a cool story.
17:44
>> We first need to establish how did you break your iPod, Carl?
17:46
Were you doing jumping jacks or or what were you doing?
17:50
I mean, I know I know it was like the world's smallest hard drive, I think, at the time that was being put in like a consumer product, but it was easy to forget because there was no skip protection or whatever.
17:59
I mean, it just kind of just worked.
18:00
The thing was like built like a tank. How did you break it? >> I don't know.
18:06
I think I just overused it.
18:07
So, back then it took me like 3 hours a day commuting back and forth from school and I was just listening to music the entire time.
18:13
And yeah, I think I just used it too much.
18:18
>> You know what's crazy?
18:18
I feel like it's it's easy to forget there was also like a Brick Breaker game on there as well, right?
18:24
And I remember >> I was also the first person at my school to have an iPod.
18:28
Uh were you as well, Alex? >> Yeah, pretty much. Yeah. >> Oh, let's go, boys.
18:32
[laughter] That's what this is all about.
18:35
And uh but that's all people wanted to do on there.
18:39
I was like listening to the strokes on repeat and people are like, I just want to play Brickbreaker.
18:44
>> I was a little bit different.
18:44
I spent so much time in iTunes making sure the ID3 like metatags were perfect and the album art was perfect.
18:53
>> Oh yeah, you got to clean all the album artwork up because when you rip that off Lime Wire, it's all up.
18:59
The metadata is just a disaster.
19:02
>> But were you also editing the met metadata on device for your Sony Minis player track by track or uh am I beating am I beating you on the nerdiness scale with that one?
19:13
[laughter] You would have loved this thing.
19:17
Actually, I still have it.
19:17
It was an old Sony miniis player. It was neon blue.
19:18
I mean, do you remember like the buttons on all of those were just dramatically different for every single unit and we were still like figuring out, you know, what that was going to look like. Yeah.
19:31
I never bought a mini disc.
19:31
Some of my friends had it, but they looked really cool.
19:34
And now when you look back at those early Sony designs, they were also spectacular.
19:40
I mean, people don't design products like that anymore.
19:45
Yeah, >> I'm sure that inspired your team.
19:46
I mean, I feel like even the way that you draw attention to specific parts of your phones and your products, like having like a red accent uh for like the record button on the miniis player, I feel like it's so uh underrated.
19:58
Uh I guess if you're making something for billions of people, you just end up with the metal glass.
20:05
But yeah, it seems like you have an opportunity to do something a little different, a little more fun. >> It's true.
20:10
So, like in the beginning, we um we found this picture of the Sony Museum.
20:14
Um I don't think it exists anymore.
20:16
It's a museum in Tokyo where Sony employees would take their guests and it will be like a full wall of different Sony products.
20:22
And we said, hey, you know, if in 20 years from now, we can also have a wall of products that we'll be proud to share with our guests. That will be so awesome.
20:31
Uh and back to your question, why smartphones?
20:34
Like that's what I've been doing my entire life.
20:38
So if I start a startup, I I have to do something I'm familiar with.
20:42
But unfortunately, the thing I'm familiar with is a very tough uh industry for a startup to break into.
20:49
So it's been um it's been a journey to say the least.
20:54
Yeah, I'm fascinated by that because a lot of founders they see opportunity in, you know, apps and there's all these crowded spaces that everyone is building in, especially with AI these days and doing a new smartphone company from scratch is just extremely ambitious.
21:08
I was researching nothing ahead of this and it's true.
21:13
I mean, you guys are the only new smartphone company to be started in the past decade. Is that right? >> To have survived.
21:19
There's been a few attempts, but >> a lot of them uh failed.
21:22
It's it's just like >> the value chain is very long.
21:27
>> So there's so many plates you have to be spinning at the same time for >> um something like this to work.
21:31
And there's so many reasons that you can fail.
21:35
Um I give you just one example of something I think now in hindsight crazy that we pulled off in the beginning.
21:40
Um, so all these other companies that started and failed, they really scared our suppliers.
21:49
So when we were talking to a big manufacturer, they were like, "Hey, we worked with a couple of startups in the past.
21:56
They also had great funding, great investors, famous founders, like you better than you, but they still failed.
22:05
So you know, we're not going to work with any startups anymore.
22:07
We're just going to do our Apple and big company business.
22:12
Um, and back in the day when these other startups before us were were trying to enter the market, the factory, the manufacturer would take all the inventory.
22:25
So, the startup doesn't have to, you know, have cash for the inventory.
22:27
But when it was our turn, because everybody was so scared of working with startups, not only did we have to pay for the inventory, we also had to pay four months before getting the product because they just wanted to be 100% sure that they would get paid and make money on the deal.
22:45
And we were like, "Holy crap."
22:49
Like, what do we do about this?
22:50
Because as a startup, you don't have any cash.
22:52
Um, the thing we pulled off that I'm still really grateful for is one of our sales channels.
22:59
They believed in us so much because they wanted to sell the products after we uh after we make it.
23:08
They they wired the money to us like 4 months before getting the product.
23:11
Like they had never done that before and they had to go to their board for approval. Um, but they did it.
23:16
But there's many like there's many cases like this where we've done stuff that's seemingly very uh abnormal or very difficult to do in order to even you know survive past uh this stage.
23:34
>> So your supplier was like I'm sorry Carl we just got burned by a situationship with uh Andy Rubin and his essential phone.
23:44
How are we going to make this happen?
23:45
They're like New York landlords.
23:45
Like we're going to need first month, last month, and deposit. >> Yeah. >> Yeah.
23:51
But not just one company, right?
23:53
They they were burned by three or four startups in the past.
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26:12
So, what is it about nothing that has led to you surviving but now also it seems like thriving?
26:17
You just raised $200 million.
26:19
Your sales are what, like roughly doubling year-over-year.
26:25
What what did you figure out that no one else figured out?
26:26
What was was there one thing or was it a lot of things?
26:31
>> Um it's a lot of things but maybe to summarize maybe it's pacing or understanding of the industry and pacing like we knew that the industry was very tough and it's easy to mess up and we have to do basic capability building in the beginning because there's so many steps actually from having a product idea to shipping it at scale all across the world.
26:53
So, in the beginning, we kind of paced ourselves.
26:55
We didn't go too crazy on the product definition.
26:57
If you think about it, our early products were basically products that already existed that other companies have invented and made huge categories and we just tweaked the design a little bit to appeal to a specific target audience and uh gradually grew our capabilities from there.
27:17
there. I think now we're at a point where going back to pacing we have some of those solid capabilities these foundations in place which really enables us to take more aggressive steps into the future and take more risk on the product side for instance give
27:33
people a sense of nothing as it exists today because I think especially people in the US they don't really know the brand you're mostly big in Europe and parts of Asia India give us a sense of like who your users are what's the demographic are they mostly Gen Z where are today. Uh, and then how are you
27:47
Uh, and then how are you thinking about the US now?
27:52
[snorts] >> Yeah, we are um approaching 5 years old.
27:55
We're roughly 800 to 900 people.
27:55
Um, we're approaching a billion dollars in sales this year.
28:01
>> If we had an air horn, we'd play that like the TBPN guys.
28:03
So, that's a that's a huge milestone. >> Yeah. Thanks.
28:07
Um, and our users are very young.
28:11
Um because when we built this, we were like it's pretty much impossible to be popular among everybody in the world at the very beginning.
28:20
So we got to pick a lane.
28:22
And we found that the the younger consumer really resonates with our products.
28:28
I think that it's coming from a place of wanting to be different, like finding their own identity, not wanting the same products as uh maybe their parents.
28:37
And you know, when we were growing up, Apple was such a cool company.
28:40
But when these kids today are growing up, it's kind of just another corporate.
28:44
So they don't have the same brand power among the youth as they have amongst us.
28:49
Um, so if you look at our users, on average, they're 26.
28:52
Uh, I think Samsung's average user age is like 45 or something like that, and it keeps growing.
28:59
So I think it's a great place to start.
29:01
And if we can um really serve these consumers needs really well as they grow up, I think it's going to create a really solid uh user base for us.
29:12
>> We know uh Samsung has cornered the market on dudes with belt holsters here in the United States, >> especially with the foldables. >> Yeah.
29:22
>> I I heard Carl, you have a view on foldables.
29:24
You're Are you like Are you warming up to them?
29:26
I've got the I'm holding the new Pixel Pro 10 Fold and I I like it.
29:30
I >> I wish I could say you look great with your foldable, Alex, but I can't >> can just like, you know, block my whole face here.
29:36
But um yeah, what just mentioned it like what Yeah.
29:39
What do you What do you think of foldables?
29:42
>> I think um it's a it's an interesting product, but probably not for us right now because if you look at the current state of foldables, the annual shipment volume is about 17 million units and annual shipments for smartphones is 1. 2 billion.
29:55
Um, so it's a very very small part of the market.
30:00
And if we look at who buys foldables right now, it's usually men who are in business >> who do podcast >> podcast.
30:08
They need space to uh kind of sign documents or read documents.
30:10
Um, so if we're targeting a more young demographic, a younger demographic, it doesn't really make sense for us.
30:18
But because Apple is doing a foldable next year, I think that might open up the market.
30:24
So, uh, after their release, we can reassess.
30:29
>> I remember reading something like 87% of Gen Zers in the States have an iPhone and it's like a status symbol to them, even if they don't necessarily love it or feel a lot of loyalty to it.
30:38
How are you going to break through that? >> It's really tough.
30:42
And also, um, every year the Apple market share grows in the US.
30:48
Um and if the young people already like if you say 87 or 90% of the youth already use iPhones just think about what will happen when they grow up.
30:57
it will become a monopoly, right?
30:59
So, I feel like the smartphone business is really tough in the US for us because of these dynamics and uh Apple's behavior has definitely not made it easier for us kind of there's there's a social part, the brand part, but there's also the um lockin effect with uh you know iCloud and airdrop, iMessage and all that stuff. >> Yeah.
31:24
>> Which is making it really hard to switch.
31:26
So I think US will be it's a really important market for us going forward.
31:31
Um it's already the biggest market for our earbuds and headphones. So our audio products.
31:36
So we can definitely see that you know if there's not the lock in situation going on US would be a big market for us on phones as well. >> Yeah.
31:46
Um, so we see the potential and as we're now looking into new form factors into the future, I think that for those new form factors, US will be the most important market because we already see that for for uh audio products, why not for new form factors that are um not necessarily competing with iPhone, but they're just brand new products that can be used together with iPhone.
32:10
The lockin thing is really interesting to me because yes, it is still difficult to switch.
32:16
Although I would say with cloud and the fact that a lot of apps now easily sync, it's not as difficult as it once was.
32:24
Also, the like porting data over has gotten faster.
32:26
I remember when it took like hours and hours to transfer your data to a new phone, right?
32:30
And now it's relatively fast.
32:32
I mean, I just did this with the new iPhone.
32:33
But, you know, I've been sitting here with this Pixel that that Google sent me to try and like it's cool and I want to experiment with it, but I just I don't want to relearn a decade plus of OS knowledge and just um feeling.
32:48
It's like this it's this I don't know.
32:50
It's it's very hard to put into words, but it just it feels like one of the biggest things to overcome is actually just people being set in their ways. And maybe you can't.
32:57
Maybe maybe it's very difficult to teach an old dog new tricks, which is like I guess I'm, you know, I'm an old dog as it comes to phones now.
33:05
But sounds like what you're saying is if you can get 24 year olds on board when maybe it's like one of their first phones and they haven't been comfortable with iOS for over 10 years, that's the real opportunity.
33:16
It's not like you're maybe going to switch millennials necessarily over in mass. Is that fair?
33:22
It's fair, but I still think we'll have to address the lock in issue somehow because if a young person is, you know, chatting in group chats on iMessage with their friends, they don't want to be left out. >> Yeah.
33:36
Well, can we revisit that for a second?
33:38
I know there was a moment, I don't know if this was just a stunt or if this was a long-term plan, Carl, but you guys actually created your own iMessage solution, right?
33:45
Can you bring us back to that moment?
33:48
Yeah, I think around that time, two, three years ago, there was a bunch of companies trying to jailbreak iMessage.
33:55
I think they were running virtual Macs in the cloud to pretend to be devices that support iMessage.
34:02
Um, and we had this iMessage problem, especially if you want to target the US.
34:08
So, we worked with one of these startups, and um, it didn't go very well.
34:13
Um because >> I'm sure that was the first thing on Tim Cook's desk that day.
34:20
>> Yeah, >> your YouTube video.
34:22
>> So it it got a lot of uh interest, but the we should have vetted the the startup security uh measures better.
34:29
Uh so we we we identified some security issues and it was a big controversy and we shut it down like within 24 hours uh never to be reopened again because in hindsight this workaround thing is uh it's not secure.
34:46
Um it's also like not permanent.
34:50
It's easy to patch on Apple's side.
34:53
So maybe we should just just wait until you know governments around the world you know force Apple to open it up because we're already seeing trends um with the European Union and DOJ um really challenging Apple on some of their behaviors. >> Yeah.
35:09
Is India your biggest market right now >> for phones? Yeah. >> And followed by what?
35:13
Because the company's based in London followed by the UK Europe >> followed by Germany actually. >> Germany. Okay.
35:19
I'm so fascinated in India because uh there was a story recently where you're you're seeing like 140 plus percent year-over-year growth there.
35:30
Uh you're you're growing in terms of just like general market share awareness too in a way that a new brand hasn't really done.
35:36
Um what is it about India that has worked for you?
35:42
>> Um we know the market really well like even the previous company OnePlus was really big in India.
35:46
Ah >> um and I think now what we're seeing there is consumers are changing. >> Mhm.
35:55
>> Uh the economy is growing very quickly and the middle class is growing and middle class consumers they want something different from uh from the past.
36:03
Like when you don't have a ton of money you want the functional benefits of something but if you start um having more disposable income you care about other things as well.
36:12
The kind of emotional benefits of a product. Do I like the design? Do I like the brand?
36:17
Do I like the software user experience?
36:18
So, we're seeing kind India shift in this way.
36:24
And I feel like us as a company, we're pretty well positioned to like to succeed in this new uh world of expectations.
36:33
Whereas if people just care about efficiency, like can I get the most spec for the lowest price, it's really hard for us because at a small scale compared to the Apples and Samsungs of the world, we have to pay more for our components.
36:46
So this um demographic shift or this consumer shift, we're really seeing a lot of traction here.
36:54
>> But you're going for the high-end too, right?
36:56
So like the nothing uh phone 3 launch pretty recently happened in the US a few months ago.
37:00
Um, and that's priced at like $800.
37:03
It's just up there with, you know, the base iPhone, Samsung.
37:07
It seems like now you're really trying to go after after the more higherend market. Is that fair?
37:14
>> Um, we have a range of products starting from on phones starting from $200 up to like $1,000 depending on the configuration.
37:21
Um, on average, we we're selling our products at around 350 US.
37:28
So whilst we have the the the high-end one, the volume driver is around 3 350.
37:34
>> And so when you look at all that money you've now raised and looking to the future, I mean you have a lot of options for how to invest it.
37:40
You have hardware, software, now AI.
37:43
How are you thinking about allocating uh that that $200 million you've raised?
37:50
We need to be very careful with the money we raised because um I think first of all we should become profitable.
38:00
Um we've been kind of like a ship that's been in in the ocean for a long time for 5 years and it will be good to just dock the ship so the entire company can feel like how it feels to be a profitable company and then we can decide to go faster and go harder and kind of set sail again.
38:16
But I think it's good to just arrive on land and take stock of the situation first.
38:22
So we're definitely going to be very uh careful with how we spend our money.
38:27
Um but this also enables us to invest into the future.
38:30
So if if we say that our regular business that we have now, the smartphones and the audio products, let's be prudent, let's grow, but like let's not waste money here.
38:42
M I think we have a we have a little bit of budget to try new things.
38:48
Um and that's where I feel like we're in a sweet spot in terms of scale.
38:54
Like we're not small and we're not huge.
38:56
If we're too small, it's hard to create quality products.
39:00
Even if your concept is cool, it's hard to have have the raw engineering horsepower to actually deliver something of quality.
39:08
and it's hard to have the supply chain relationships and all that stuff set up to to ship it at scale.
39:12
So, I think we definitely have that, but we're also not too big that it's really hard to to steer the ship.
39:19
So, I feel like we're in this really interesting sweet spot.
39:23
And, you know, given all the developments in AI right now, there's going to be so many experiments both on the hardware side and the software side from all over the place, startups, you know, Magnificent 7, everybody's going to start trying new things.
39:35
And when we started 5 years ago, we said tech was boring.
39:40
We wanted to make it make it fun again.
39:41
I think it's definitely a super fun time.
39:44
So, we're very excited to put our hat into the ring as well and participate in exploring and finding the new form factors of tomorrow.
39:55
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42:09
I know a big next step is what you're calling the essential OS.
42:11
I saw that you're targeting 2028, which is a little off into the future.
42:18
Um, it feels like a lot of the hardware companies at least haven't really painted a picture of what phones are going to look like in part because I think they're afraid to self-cannibalize in some ways as a lot of the processing power and whatnot moves off your device uh to some extent.
42:38
How are you thinking that those devices are going to look in a few years down the road?
42:42
Yeah, I think the reason why others haven't thought as much about it is because I mean I've been inside of some of those organizations before.
42:52
They're more like a CPG company, consumer package goods company.
42:54
Like what are the features we have?
42:58
What are the features the other competitors have?
43:01
And how can we sell more than them?
43:01
And how do how do we grow our sales every year?
43:05
And that's that was the reason I I wanted to have something independent on my own because it would not be a great outcome um if we just did that like it would just be following the industry.
43:17
I wanted to have a chance of uh really building something unique.
43:22
Um the reason why we picked smartphones was also that the smartphone is the most important digital device we have today. Um it sells the most. It's got 1.
43:31
2 two billion sales a year and we use it for many hours every single day.
43:36
So we we we thought that if we're able to enter this industry, survive and grow in volume, then we have a great uh foundation to deploy software and services on top of.
43:51
Um so it wasn't like to make a smartphone company.
43:54
That was never the goal, but the smartphone was a a tool uh that we could possess to create cooler stuff in the future.
44:03
Um, I don't think the hardware is going to change significantly.
44:06
I think we're at a um era where the hardware improvements are marginal.
44:14
Um, so every year we'll see, you know, better battery, slightly better cameras, not a hand projector is what you're saying. >> No, >> probably not.
44:23
[laughter] >> Um, but the software is really uh a place where there hasn't been a lot of innovation if I'm being honest.
44:29
Like even in the Palm PDA days, like it's still a similar UX to now.
44:34
You have full screen apps, you have app stores, you have home screens and lock screens. Styluses are even back. >> Styluses are back.
44:43
I think the future is that definitely generative UI.
44:45
Um because theoretically the phone has a lot of context over you.
44:51
And why are we all getting the same experience when we're all individual people?
44:56
We have different needs and different priorities.
45:00
And beyond generative UIs, it's also going to be a lot more proactive and agentic.
45:04
Meaning that, you know, once we have an intention, once we know what we want to do, the gap should be a lot smaller than currently.
45:11
Like today, even grabbing coffee with a friend, that's like five different apps, right?
45:16
Some like scheduling, texting, Uber, Maps, etc.
45:23
Well, so when you turn those five steps into just one user interface with AI, I think some may say you're also kind of abstracting away those services, whether it is the Starbucks app UI, the Yelp app UI, the payment app UI.
45:37
How do you feel like those companies uh are going to feel as they kind of get asked by potentially you guys or Apple or now OpenAI as they try to bring them in?
45:50
say, "Hey, we're just going to show parts of the UI for you.
45:51
Maybe there's less opportunity to discover other things in those apps."
45:55
How do you think those companies are going to navigate that?
46:00
>> Um, it's going to be a complicated path to navigate.
46:03
>> They don't want to be dumb pipes, right? >> Yeah, 100%.
46:05
So, on one hand, there's the ecosystem of uh of apps, but there's also the consumer that we need to bring along along this journey.
46:12
And but maybe I take the the ecosystem first.
46:15
I think we're also pretty well positioned here because like if you're a huge company, they might feel bullied by the huge company who who just wants to steamroll them and they're like, "Hey, this is our uh API.
46:28
This is how you need to connect and go do it."
46:31
Whereas for us, we can say, "Hey, you know, we don't know what the future's going to be.
46:36
We think that it might be like this and we don't know exactly how to work with everybody.
46:39
We know your brand matters to you.
46:42
you have a lot of you've invested a lot of money into building your brand equity.
46:46
So, let's co-work on something together.
46:48
At the very least, it's learning for both sides.
46:52
You'll learn how you can navigate the new world better and we can learn how we build the products better.
46:58
>> That's a very diplomatic answer, Carl.
47:00
It does seem like currently based on where things are going, your biggest competition on this will probably be Google.
47:06
uh just because they're already starting to do some of this like the the new Pixel has some very lightweight agentic stuff.
47:13
Um it will start like surfacing things from email when it makes sense in text which is nice.
47:18
Apple is obviously way behind the eight-ball on this.
47:22
Um maybe they'll catch up, maybe they won't.
47:24
Um but yeah, I'm curious how you think about competing with Google especially because you know the your phone is based on Android.
47:31
the your phone is based on Android. I mean Android is open source but um yeah what what is it like competing with Google and how do you think about them especially on the AI side as you're trying to also build this AI OS >> sometimes being small also has it has its advantages
47:48
like we can move faster we can make decisions faster potentially take more risk uh I think taste is going to matter because when you're introducing people to a brand new way of doing things or using a product the more beautiful it is and the easier it is to use, the higher the chance for product market fit. And I
48:04
And I think we should be humble.
48:07
We should um you know, ship quickly.
48:10
Instead of spending 5 years or 3 years on a project, we should spend 9 months to 12 months to test a new form factor.
48:16
Um instead of spending hundreds of millions of dollars, we should spend like 10 million, 20 million to test something out and really be close to the consumer like take the feedback and iterate quickly.
48:29
I don't think we have a we're going to be able to do a one hit wonder.
48:34
Like I think Steve Jobs did that a couple of times in his career.
48:35
He reimagined like industries and the first product almost always hit.
48:39
I don't think we can do that.
48:42
But if we can't do that, the plan B is to iterate quickly, take feedback, don't spend too much money, and move and and just ship quickly.
48:52
Seems like one of the tenets for your AI approach is kind of looking at memory like your personal space, personal search, whether that's with the essential space or some of the tenets of the essential OS.
49:03
How are you thinking about that?
49:05
Do you feel like that's like uniquely accessible uh way to get into AI for a lot of people?
49:10
>> I think that's actually the core of what we want to do.
49:12
Um, if consumers get to learn that the more context I feed into my AI or OS or assistant or whatever you call it, the more utility I get out of that.
49:25
um that that's going to be the trigger to give rise to a new array of uh form factors because sometimes you have your phone in your pocket, maybe you're walking or maybe you're at a dinner like you just the phone is not always there for you.
49:40
And as soon as people realize that the more context they can feed in the better output, I think that then new categories will will start growing.
49:48
And I spent some time to think about like 10 years from now how the world will be and what categories will be popular.
49:54
I still think phones will be popular like still it will still be a billion unit plus um industry simply because there's still hundreds of millions of people on earth who don't have smartphones.
50:06
So even if you know we in the western world we upgrade our phones less frequently it's still going to be an important device for us but then you have all these other people who are going to come online and use smartphones.
50:18
And I really also believe that the the new form factors for for context capture will be billion plus categories in the next 10 years.
50:28
>> This is like the puck that OpenAI is developing with Johnny stuff like that. >> Stuff like that.
50:33
Like nobody knows what the perfect form factor is.
50:35
We're all looking for PMF at this point, but let's see.
50:41
I mean something like that maybe.
50:43
>> For those who don't know PMF, product market fit.
50:44
That's what I thought the talk button was going to be on the new headphones.
50:49
I was like, "Oh, I feel like that's kind of like no matter where you are, no matter what you're doing, that's going to be the AI button."
50:55
>> Um, we made a tiny step with a talk button.
50:57
So, if you have a nothing phone in the ear 3, you can use the talk button to record your ideas into Essential Space. >> Yeah.
51:05
When we were in LA together a few months ago, you were talking to me about the chat GPT integration you managed to pull off through the headphones where they're essentially the only headphones that you can talk to chat GPT without doing, you know, multiple prompts like you have to do on iOS or the act.
51:19
Yeah, it's just it's a little jankier on iOS.
51:24
Um, how are you thinking about chatbt though?
51:26
Because they have the most memory of any AI product right now.
51:28
I think they're they really see that as like a key competitive edge for them.
51:33
they're going into devices.
51:33
Um, you know, you support chatbt and the phone and the headphones right now, but how do you think about that over the next few years?
51:42
Do you feel like your all's interests kind of collide and your competitors or do you feel like you can be a platform, a hardware platform for these LLM companies who want more distribution and want more context and your devices would be the way they would get that?
51:59
>> I think long this is this is a very good question.
52:01
And I think longterm it will be really bad if we uh just become a hardware company because if you look at the like if you look at our products and the different components we have in the product um and the different types of companies in our value chain a hardware OEM has the lowest margin out of everybody.
52:20
So the chipset maker has higher margins the the OS provider has higher margins etc etc.
52:26
So it'll be it will not be a great outcome if we go through this new cycle that's coming and we end up still being a hardware manufacturer.
52:36
Um it's a good place to start and the only place we could have started but we we shouldn't end there.
52:44
But that's the long term.
52:47
In the short term there's a lot of practical uh things we need to navigate.
52:51
So if you know there's opportunities to partner in a meaningful way with any of these larger companies that can also at the same time provide value to our consumers whilst not blocking us from achieving our long-term ambitions.
53:04
We definitely be open for that.
53:06
In fact, we're entertaining a couple of these conversations right now.
53:09
But >> um it would just be bad to become a hardware company say in 10 years from now.
53:16
>> So what does that mean though?
53:16
Does that mean you need your own foundational AI models?
53:20
Like how how what does that mean for your AI strategy?
53:25
>> Um the way I see it is that the models are there's so much investment in the models and there's so much competition between different labs.
53:34
So one month one model will be really powerful and another month another model will be really powerful.
53:42
So with um with our resources, we won't be able to compete.
53:45
And I think globally, if we look at all these model companies, I feel like they're going to enter a price competition or a price war, which will erode their margins further.
53:57
Um I think long-term maybe two or three companies are going to thrive and the rest will have a very hard time.
54:07
Um so this is not a good place for us to invest.
54:08
And also if we study the model companies, they're all kind of pivoting to to do either deep enterprise or to to do applied on consumers.
54:16
So I guess it's also a signal that they're not seeing a ton of uh um improvements like step change improvements in the in the model capability.
54:26
Uh they need to apply the technology in in new ways to to help consumers and users.
54:32
Um so I think for us we should focus on applied and we should focus on applied towards consumers and the thing that we need to be really great at is to to help people capture context and then action on the context.
54:49
I think that's where we can also build our moes.
54:52
>> I sense that deep enterprise isn't really your passion.
54:56
>> It's a good business but uh no I'm a consumer person.
55:00
I mean the entire reason why I entered this space is because I love these products as a consumer. >> Yeah.
55:07
So you definitely have a distinct taste and aesthetic.
55:09
Um as you seek to go broader, do you find that the aesthetic is is resonating more broadly or or could it actually be turning some people off?
55:21
I mean, I wear your headphones around all the time and I love them, but you know, I don't know.
55:28
people are like, "Oh, maybe I'll just stick with my AirPods and and blend in with the crowd."
55:32
I know there have been a lot of ads about that as well.
55:34
H how do you balance that?
55:36
Like trying to, you know, really develop a striking aesthetic.
55:39
I mean, even the fashion stuff you're doing and the photography stuff you're doing feels kind of high fashion, which traditionally has been kind of exclusive, right?
55:48
>> Yeah, it's also a great question.
55:48
And I think it goes back to the pacing thing I said like, you know, when we're just starting out, we have to be super opinionated because even if 90% of the people hate us and 10% love us, that's perfectly fine for a startup that's trying to get a foothold in the industry.
56:06
>> Is that the stat on your end? 90% hate, 10% love.
56:10
>> No, it's just a just just a just a theory.
56:12
Um, and if you take a step back and just try and think from first principles with our current design aesthetic, there must at least be 3% of the world at the very least that would find it like would love it.
56:29
And we're not 3% market share yet.
56:33
In fact, we're quite far from 3% market share.
56:35
Um, but I don't know if you noticed in in 2025, we have been evolving our design language a little bit.
56:43
We've added more metallic accents, uh, slightly tone down the transparency.
56:49
So, it's still very distinctively nothing, but we're seeing an evolution in our in our design language.
56:54
And, um, that's kind of our experiment.
56:57
like we know we need to keep growing and we need to cater to more people over time, but we also need to do it in a way where we keep what's different about us and not lose track of our uh early adopters.
57:13
>> I hadn't really thought about it that way.
57:14
That makes a lot of sense.
57:14
Yeah, the new headphones are kind of more silver, maybe a bit more accessible.
57:18
I mean, it's uh it's tough, isn't it?
57:22
as a as a hardcore gadget nerd, you're like, I want to make something that looked like those yellow Sony Walkman headphones from the 80s.
57:29
I mean, that's what I see when when I see these and I'm like, these belong in in the MoMA, you know, essentially, but it doesn't necessarily mean that that it's going to get you to uh millions and millions of users, >> but our 2026 road map, it still looks very cool and very exciting.
57:45
So, um on that side, it's it's not tough.
57:48
I'm very excited about our future products.
57:50
talk about this a little bit as most you can because I was saying like even there's a Financial Times story about the recent fundraising.
57:58
They were like you're talking about robotics and even integrating into electric vehicles.
58:01
I assume you're looking at glasses.
58:03
I assume you're looking at all kinds of wearables.
58:06
Like where does the nothing brand go next?
58:07
Like beyond phones and headphones, a watch.
58:10
Like how are you thinking about all these different categories?
58:14
>> Yeah, I'm just trying to figure out u what I can say right now.
58:17
But >> just show us the road map.
58:21
>> If we think about the the context or the memory being in the middle of uh a person's ecosystem, then um the smartphone is going to be an important part of it, but only one part of it.
58:32
Um glasses is an interesting category.
58:35
I was really bearish on glasses before cuz I even went through the pain to do lassic to not need to wear glasses.
58:44
>> Um I think the bar is very high.
58:44
I used to think the bar is very high to get somebody to use smart glasses because like it doesn't feel comfortable and you really need to provide a lot of utility for somebody to want to use it.
58:56
But I've been quite surprised actually by the growth of the Meta Ray-B bands.
59:00
Like this year >> I think they're >> five times more sales than than last year.
59:06
>> And uh so it's something we're thinking about.
59:08
We haven't made a decision around glasses but it's >> it's warm I'm warming up to the idea.
59:10
I think it's fascinating, Carl, how you engage with the nothing community and customers and like you're you're a YouTuber.
59:19
You're you're a very successful YouTuber, which I don't think many smartphone cos can say.
59:21
And something I love is you actually review competing products uh which is super unusual.
59:29
How do you think about just engaging the world as a CEO of a company like this and uh doing that?
59:34
like talking about competition for example is something you just don't see uh consumer electronics cos do very often.
59:42
So was that something that just was natural to you or what is it is it a strategy?
59:49
>> It's a there's an under underlying logic to it.
59:51
Um I think my team hates it but I always say we got to get 10 times more out of the money we we invest because we have so little money compared to our competitors.
1:00:01
I I heard Samsung has a billion dollars a year in marketing budget for just the US alone.
1:00:05
Like we're nowhere close to that.
1:00:09
So every dollar we spend has to um do a lot more.
1:00:12
So we have to and we have a lot of weaknesses as a smaller smaller company in this industry.
1:00:18
Like we have to pay more for our components.
1:00:20
We can't have as many engineers as we would like to build all the cool stuff.
1:00:25
Um, so we really have to look at all the potential areas where we can turn these disadvantages into advantages.
1:00:33
And I think content creation is one of them because like nobody would do it if you're a public publicly listed big company.
1:00:40
Like it's so easy to say the wrong thing and like it's impossible impossible for them to do.
1:00:46
So that's why we should um we should double down here.
1:00:51
And um we started experimenting with content creation about two years ago.
1:00:54
Um I think last year we did about 600 million organic views on our content, mainly short form.
1:01:02
And this year we're probably doubling that as well.
1:01:05
And next year I'm trying to think of how we get to like 5 billion, like 5x um or 4x.
1:01:09
Um, but I think because I think this is going to be a really unique opportunity for us, especially as we're targeting the Gen Z and Gen Alpha, like they spend all their time on uh on these social media platforms.
1:01:24
>> Do you work on retainer for podcasts who are looking to grow their uh their online views?
1:01:27
No, that's that's that's super impressive.
1:01:29
I mean, is the team that you're hiring for that or are they just like these like cracked early 20s like super online people?
1:01:34
Like how do you how do you do that?
1:01:37
How do you just organically create billions of views for a brand?
1:01:41
Um, two things have been two ideas have been really helpful.
1:01:45
Um, you know, in the beginning we created these like high-end like branded mysterious type of content.
1:01:51
And then one day a friend pulled me aside and said, "Hey, what you're doing is kind of cringe.
1:01:56
Like you're just a brand trying to sell me things just like every other brand, but you know, I just want to be entertained. So don't be a brand.
1:02:04
Be a Why can't you as a brand just be a creator?"
1:02:08
So that was a big mindset sh mindset shift for us.
1:02:14
And um the second thing for short form was just just create a lot of content like um so far we've um basically gone through all our archives all our long form content we've clipped into short form and u it's just a like a numbers game.
1:02:31
Sometimes it the algorithm likes it and it gets a lot of views.
1:02:33
Um, but I think looking into the future, there's just a lot more we can do.
1:02:38
Like we don't even have dedicated short form short form content. Everything is reused.
1:02:42
Just dedicated content can can help us a lot.
1:02:48
We have users all over the world.
1:02:48
In some countries, um, they don't speak very good English or their culture is very different.
1:02:53
So, in Japan, we just hired a a YouTuber um who who will hopefully join our team very soon and start creating, you know, YouTube native content in Japanese.
1:03:03
So, we're trying all these ideas to to really double down on our content.
1:03:10
>> Well, at least we know that if the whole phone thing doesn't work out, you have a potential career as a YouTuber.
1:03:15
>> That's my backup plan.
1:03:15
[laughter] I feel like the trust you're building just by being more transparent is probably going to come in handy.
1:03:23
There's been all this conversation over the last 10, 20 years about consumer privacy and data and now AI companies are kind of asking for it all and just saying, "Hey, it's going to come in handy at some point."
1:03:38
How do you think about that proposition and how accessible it really is?
1:03:42
Like when's the right time?
1:03:42
is? Like when's the right time? security needs to be raised to the highest strategic level at the company because I mean or or trust like it has to be one of the the main strategies for the company because if we're going to build
1:03:55
this memory like we need people to want to share their memories with us their context with us but if they don't trust us um they're not going to do it and I feel like we have a lot of work to do um we're currently beefing up our security team and our processes internally. Um, but we I also think we have a unique
1:04:16
Um, but we I also think we have a unique opportunity here as a smaller company.
1:04:18
I think we can do things that are more uh transparent, more down to earth and through that also help us earn the trust.
1:04:27
It's a product question as well like when we define the products like how do we surface things to users in a transparent way?
1:04:35
How do we give them more granular controls over uh what we have and what we shouldn't have?
1:04:42
Recently we um in essential space we added a feature where you can look at the memories all the memories you you've stored and you can delete them either one by one or you can just disable all of it but we need to do more things like that on the product side as well.
1:04:56
>> I know another area of of controversy is uh what a photo or a video even is in the world of AI.
1:05:04
I know there's this kind of long-standing idea that the cameras sell the phones, but now it seems like the outputs of those cameras are kind of increasingly AI generated.
1:05:12
I mean, I know Apple makes every sky blue.
1:05:19
Samsung is creating an image of the moon on top of the moon.
1:05:22
I mean, how do you think about that uh moving forward with computational photography and and what a photo from a from a phone even is going forward?
1:05:31
Computational photography, I don't think, is an area where we need to necessarily lead the industry, but we need to keep up with the consumer expectations.
1:05:41
What we're doing on the on the camera side now that we're really focused on is um presets.
1:05:47
So, in our playground, you can upload the presets you made and you can download other people's presets.
1:05:52
We work with photographers, but also smaller creators to uh really make the camera experience more fun.
1:05:58
Um, I think that's where we should really focus our energy because if we're targeting the next generation consumers and you know they they want these they might want these cool things to play with and and share them as friends etc.
1:06:14
>> And I think we only have a little bit more time.
1:06:15
Uh, I have a burning question.
1:06:17
Where did the name nothing come from?
1:06:19
You know, I feel like I work with a lot of startups who are talking about naming themselves or a product and I say to the founders, uh, all right, are you prepared to say the name of your company a thousand times, uh, this year and a million times over the next 5 years?
1:06:35
And you say, oh, yeah, uh, we're building nothing.
1:06:37
You know, I think some of them might initially be like, hm, I'm not so sure about that.
1:06:41
But now I feel like I've I've really grown to love it.
1:06:45
I mean, how did that come about?
1:06:45
Like names are important because you have to live with it for perpetuity.
1:06:52
Um but they're also not that important in the sense that if your company is unsuccessful, any name is a bad name.
1:07:00
And if your company is successful, any name kind of grows on people and becomes a good name. Like think about Apple.
1:07:05
That's such a strange company name. It's just fruit.
1:07:07
Like imagine calling a company banana.
1:07:10
Um so I think it doesn't really matter that much if we're going to build a successful company.
1:07:14
But the you know it was really hard to find a name in the beginning.
1:07:19
We even acquired the the name essential in the beginning because we wanted to name the company essential.
1:07:25
Um because the word just was such a beautiful word and it had a lot of great meaning.
1:07:30
But then we thought hey we should probably not do that.
1:07:32
We should probably have our own legacy that we build.
1:07:36
And um it was really hard to come up with a name.
1:07:38
So nothing kind of came out of frustration because we couldn't come up with anything better.
1:07:43
Let's just call it nothing.
1:07:43
And when I said nothing, we all kind of liked it. And uh and here we are.
1:07:47
And the lawyers hated it.
1:07:52
>> Every time I have an interesting name, >> the lawyers are always like, "No, you can't register this name." But we got it through.
1:07:59
Recently, uh we have a joint venture um in India where we're building a factory.
1:08:05
And I I said, "Let's call it the factory."
1:08:07
And and the lawyers again were like, "Hey, you can't just call it a the factory."
1:08:11
Um, but I'm hearing some good news on that front.
1:08:15
So, so maybe it'll be the factory. >> Oh, wow. The factory lives.
1:08:21
>> You have to love watching uh the LinkedIn influencer dudes try and learn something from every new tech story.
1:08:30
They're like, "What can we learn from the name Chat GBT?"
1:08:31
It's like either the name is actually a stroke of genius because it's so techcentric that it's completely transparent about what it is.
1:08:42
But I think I'm with you, Carl.
1:08:42
It's kind of incidental more than anything.
1:08:47
>> Yeah, I think it doesn't matter.
1:08:47
There's so many terrible names out there.
1:08:50
>> My main criteria I tell people for naming is that it has to actively be not terrible.
1:08:55
Once it is out of the terrible zone, it's kind of in neutral.
1:08:58
It's just kind of a lever.
1:08:59
I mean, I don't know uh if you thought of this as well, but when we were talking about the name Access for this podcast, I mean, there's certainly some baggage with that name, especially in media, but I was like, that's just going to look like really cool as a logo when we get a designer to do it, you know?
1:09:15
And then we bring the designer in and he's like, "Wow, what a word."
1:09:18
He's like, "I could do so much with this word."
1:09:20
And I mean, the nothing dot matrix.
1:09:22
I mean, all of a sudden it's like, "Oh, it works."
1:09:24
you know, as soon as you see the name the word nothing in the dot matrix logo. >> I like access.
1:09:30
I'm sure it will be a great name once the the pod grows. >> Yeah.
1:09:34
Well, Carl, we appreciate you coming on. >> Thanks for having me. It was fun.
1:09:40
>> Thanks for nothing, Carl.
1:09:42
>> No, you just had to do that, didn't you? >> I did. I did. I'm a dad now.
1:09:44
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