0:06
Roxanne Varza is the director of Station F, the biggest startup campus in the world.
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Based in Paris, Roxanne is recognized as one of the most influential figures in the French startup ecosystem.
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The French media have called her the young empress of startups and even the new pope of high-tech in France.
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Roxanne was formerly a tech journalist and a startup ambassador for Microsoft.
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She was then personally selected by the French billionaire Xavier Niel to spearhead the development of Station F in Paris.
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Roxanne is a key reason why France became a tech superpower in less than a decade.
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That's the giant idea for today.
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In the first 5 years of Station F's existence, it's supported more than 5,000 French startups and more than 90% of them are still in operation today.
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Their unicorn companies include Hugging Face, a $5 billion company almost, and Alan, also around the $4 billion mark.
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It has been estimated that during the first 5 years, the companies from Station F have raised more than 8 billion euros and created almost 50,000 jobs. Welcome, Roxanne.
1:15
What did the Paris tech ecosystem look like before you and Xavier Niel and President Macron really turned it around?
1:25
I love I love this question.
1:25
Thank you so much and thank you so much for for having me on the show.
1:31
Well, I don't think we're the only ones that contributed to to making this change and I think some people in in the names you mentioned maybe contributed in a bigger way than others, but I do think the ecosystem has changed a lot.
1:40
When I think back to what it looked like before Station F and also before Macron because we launched right around the time that he became president in 2017, the ecosystem actually there was a lot happening, but it wasn't particularly visible and when you compared it to the other key ecosystems in Europe at the time, mainly Germany and the UK, France just didn't pair up.
2:05
There were a lot lot less rounds of funding, entrepreneurs seemed to be kind of leaving rather than arriving, and generally the feeling was that the ecosystem lacked ambition.
2:14
So, I would say that kind of paints a bit of a picture of pre-2017 French ecosystem. Okay.
2:22
Well, I call it as this asking you you mentioned, you know, some of those names contributed more than others.
2:26
I know for a fact you contributed a lot because what you've done with Station F is is extraordinary. So, tell me more.
2:36
I mean, obviously I I have so much admiration for Xavier and everything that he's done, otherwise I wouldn't be here.
2:44
And I really think that he's been a key part of this ecosystem's transformation.
2:49
He's someone that has done a lot beyond Station F.
2:52
I don't think everybody knows all the different projects that he's involved in, but he has Ecole 42, or 42.
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They do free coding for at least 1,000 developers per year.
3:02
It's a school in Paris, and now they're in 50 different countries around the world.
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He has Kima, his hyperactive fund or family office.
3:12
He's involved in so many different things.
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Most recently, Qubit, which is the big AI research lab that they announced last year.
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So, I mean, he's I think he's really someone that has made a very sizable contribution. Amazing.
3:21
I just need to explain it for for listeners.
3:25
So, saying correct me if I'm wrong, but Xavier Niel, big telecoms and tech billionaire, who alongside you really decided to try to supercharge France's technology ecosystem, right? Exactly, yes. Okay.
3:39
What was the single biggest thing that you did together with Xavier and others that created the French tech ecosystem as we know it now, where it really has become a true global hub for technology?
3:51
Clearly, it's not Silicon Valley yet, um but it's right up there with London and New York as one of the main producers of AI companies and and many other advanced technology companies.
4:00
What was the single biggest thing that made that happen?
4:05
It's really hard to pinpoint just one thing that made it happen.
4:07
I think what's really interesting about this kind of everything that we've seen evolve, um is they all just kind of timed they came together at the same time.
4:16
We have Macron coming to his presidency, very pro-business uh president, right around the same time that Station F is open opening and saying we want to have 1,000 early-stage companies in the middle of Paris ecosystem that was kind of ignored prior.
4:33
Um we also had with Macron a lot of very interesting policies that made it easier for foreign entrepreneurs to come.
4:40
They addressed a lot of funding gaps in the market.
4:42
So, I think what's really interesting is all of this kind of timed was timed in about the same time.
4:48
And it also happened to coincide with Brexit vote and Trump's first presidency.
4:54
Um and I only mention that because I don't think it's necessarily, you know, entrepreneurs that decided I'm leaving the UK or I'm leaving the US, but I think entrepreneurs that may have gone to those ecosystems started looking elsewhere, and that's when France was really able to kind of take advantage of that situation.
5:12
More important in in your view that you managed to stop the best French technology talent leaving or more important that you managed to attract more international talent, not necessarily just as founders, but as people who want to go work for French tech startups?
5:28
In my opinion, it's really about attracting.
5:30
And this is a big mind shift mind kind of it changed from the way of thinking prior.
5:38
Um actually, prior to Macron's presidency, there was even an initiative in France that was um to a call for French expatriates to come home and innovate And I just thought that was so cu- kind of limited in its its view.
5:50
It's like you just want to attract the best people from around the world.
5:54
We don't care where they're from.
5:56
And I think that's a big shift that happened right around 2017.
5:57
We really started thinking bigger.
6:02
Um and so that's when we we changed the visa scheme.
6:04
The visa scheme changed um if I'm not mistaken early 2017.
6:09
Um and we started seeing tons of amazing people from around the world starting to look this way.
6:15
Was that politically difficult to change the visa system so that it could allow very talented entrepreneurs to come?
6:19
Was it a kind of in the context of Brexit and rising nationalism across Europe and the US where immigration is such a uh political buzzword or because it's actually relatively small numbers of people, it just wasn't on the radar of of politics in France?
6:37
I mean, I think what was good about this the the overhaul that they did, it became so it became a four-year visa for entrepreneurs, for tech talent, for investors.
6:47
It kind of became became way more comprehensive than what we had seen in a lot of other ecosystems that were just addressing founders, which I also think is somewhat short-sighted because expecting someone to come to um a new ecosystem not having ever been in the workforce or having a network there, it may not really attract that many people.
7:06
So I think also applying it to talent was very very smart.
7:08
Um I do think some of it was marketing, but when you asked your question about was it difficult getting it up and running, I think getting the buy-in to this needs to happen is always complicated.
7:18
Why do we need to care about this specific population specifically?
7:22
And then once the visa went live, we have all kinds of funny stories about uh embassies around the world not knowing exactly what to do for a few months, but once it got on track, we have tons of people today at Station F.
7:34
I mean, over 65 nationalities on campus and a lot of them use that visa. Amazing.
7:41
What for you was the real reason that Station F took off?
7:43
I mean, I really think um the size put it on the map from day one.
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People were like, "Whoa, you know, this really kind of jumped.
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This is not just another, you know, random startup hub.
7:57
This is really something different we're trying to do."
7:59
So, I think the 1,000 companies, the size of it, um I think the fact that Xavier was the person behind it, it made it instantly very credible.
8:07
People are like, "He's somebody we we trust and we think he knows what he's doing."
8:13
Um and I would say that beyond that, um from the day that we opened, uh something that has really kind of surprised me is our proximity with the government and how much the government also strives to bring us incredible people when they come to Paris.
8:26
Um we've had numerous delegations, uh presidents, prime ministers, royal families come and visit, and that's thanks to them often.
8:37
And a lot of people would tell me like, "Well, why do you care if, you know, the president of this country comes?"
8:40
But actually, that brings a ton of visibility and credibility.
8:43
They often have incredible delegations they bring with them, a lot of business contacts.
8:48
So, it actually has really helped uh in an in a number of ways bring more incredible people and keep the momentum going.
8:58
I think that's really interesting that, you know, beyond the policies, whether it's the visa stuff or indeed the physical space, this idea of the tone from the top and having a president who makes it very clear that founders, entrepreneurs know they have a champion and that this is a country and a city that wants to prioritize technology and and really champion the the entrepreneurs.
9:20
We've seen it firsthand with our French portfolio companies, companies like Beyond Aero, where Macron has personally intervened to make sure that, for example, a company stays in France rather than moves to the US, uh sends letters of support from the president's office, and just champions, and mentions them in in speeches.
9:38
In your view, is that that vibe and that tone from the top as important, even perhaps more important than very specific government policies?
9:48
Oh, is it more important than government policies?
9:49
I don't know cuz we've seen some government policies that have been so effective, but um I do think that's really important because even prior to Macron's presidency, there were actually a lot of initiatives like La French Tech is actually not an initiative that started under Macron.
10:04
La French Tech is a kind of the government organization that promotes innovation and and seeks to support the ecosystem.
10:10
That's actually from François Hollande, who didn't have the best pro-business image.
10:16
Um so, I definitely think having that message from the top, if you don't have it, you actually miss everything else that you're building on the ground.
10:23
When we talk about government policies though, you mentioned visas.
10:26
Were there any other very specific policies that the government enacted that you would recommend, whether it's the UK or other European countries looking at very, very hard because they basically work?
10:40
I will also say the government has done a lot to mobilize um especially some of the bigger insurance companies around later stage funding.
10:51
So, they did um this initiative called TB that's got a lot of attention.
10:53
Um they were able to mobilize several billions uh for later stage funding.
11:00
They're looking at implementing um similar schemes to SEIS and EIS in the UK.
11:05
We've always had something, but it was much lower scale and almost didn't make a a dent at all.
11:08
And now they're looking at doing something way more ambitious and inspired by actually what exists in the UK.
11:13
Um so, I think they've done a lot, especially to address um the the kind of diversity uh of talent that we have here and the funding.
11:22
And I think they've also known when to step uh and not to overstep.
11:29
And then I'll probably I'll I'll also just mention that this is not with the Macron government, but there have been um some tax credit schemes that have been around for a while, but I feel like they have really been able to play into how incredible that is those are.
11:42
So, those are especially for research tax and also a special tax scheme for young innovative companies. Got it.
11:51
For us as a predominantly US and UK investor, when we looked at French companies, uh particularly again, I'll mention Beyond Aero, the the fact that the sovereign wealth fund uh entity BPI France was willing to step in and co-invest alongside us and potentially be there in future funding rounds was a pretty big factor, right?
12:12
It made it much more uh comforting to know that you know, there's going to be support from this entity who really wants to create a French champion.
12:18
In this case, a an aviation champion, a hydrogen electric aviation champion.
12:24
What's your take on whether that's a good thing that actually rather than just policy and sort of general support for entrepreneurship, you've got an entity like BPI France who is going to basically try to pick winners and invest directly into French technology startups.
12:39
Do you think that's a good thing?
12:42
I'm the biggest fan of BPI.
12:46
I mean, um it's funny because quite a few years ago people would question BPI's existence and is it good to have a public funding entity because in a lot of other markets that that kind of actor doesn't exist.
12:59
Um you know, maybe in the US you have much less public funding and so those kind of ecosystems just don't don't understand it as much.
13:05
Here, BPI is really a powerhouse for this ecosystem.
13:11
They're doing early stage grants.
13:13
They're doing exactly as you said, they're investing alongside really credible funds at kind of that mid-stage.
13:18
They're in the later stage.
13:20
They're also a fund of funds.
13:20
I mean, they have their hands in everything.
13:24
But, I also think they're doing it in a really smart way.
13:28
Um, you know, they have very very their team is incredible, very credible investors.
13:32
So, I would say this is an example of them making a huge contribution and it actually working. For sure.
13:38
We've seen it work really well.
13:40
I mentioned BPI France in in obviously France, that's definitely attracted investors like us at Giants to come and invest in in French tech companies, but also in Denmark, one of our LPs, one of the investors in Giant for us is the Danish Sovereign Wealth Fund.
13:54
And we have had investment from them, which is then spurred our interest to look at Denmark.
14:00
Uh, and then we actually co-invested alongside them as early as a seed stage where we're giving companies like Agree now, which is now a very important green tech company in Europe, their initial funding from us plus plus the Sovereign Wealth Fund.
14:12
And my sense is that if you've got really talented people working at the Sovereign Wealth Fund, they can they can pick winners.
14:19
They're all capable of saying, "We think this technology company versus that one should get public money."
14:23
And it works, and they deliver which you can then reinvest.
14:26
So, we see it working really well, and we've seen it work very badly, I think, in the UK where for example, uh, you know, there was a a gigafactory that was going to be built in the UK called British Volt, and it very nearly got hundreds of millions of pounds from the UK government, the previous UK government.
14:42
Um, and you know, any any smart investor would have taken two looks at it and and said this is this is really not a company you want to invest in.
14:49
I think one of the founders had been uh, convicted of fraud, and it was just a very messy situation.
14:54
And I think that funding money comes from not having experienced private sector venture investors working in the the Sovereign Wealth Fund.
15:00
What's your sense of BPI and how they've managed to really level up their talent base so that they can be in a position to go pick winners?
15:11
I mean, BPI, first of all, I think what's interesting is their strategy.
15:15
They kind of have this They're they're in literally everything.
15:18
So, it's like whether they're whether you have BPI directly on you have BPI on your cap table whether it's they're in a LP in a fund you have on your cap table you took a grant in the or I mean the grants I don't think I have any companies at Station F that have not taken a BPI grant.
15:34
Um so they're really they're tracking everything from the early stage cuz they're aware of what's being made.
15:37
Then they're able to actually see who's kind of growing and building and invest in those and then regardless through other investments they've made they end up um having those relationships with the funds.
15:49
just think the whole strategy is really smart and then the people working at BPI um I don't know all of their backgrounds and where they've come from but they're always around the table when we want to talk to the government about the ecosystem and the funding situation and the climate and you know I think they're the most credible people to have in the room. Fantastic.
16:09
I think stereotypically one of the issues that we would have perceived with with backing French startups is is French labor law kind of famously difficult um and compared to you know the Silicon Valley approach which is you want to hire fast fire fast absolutely crucial to startup success that you know you are able to move people on who don't work out.
16:29
Um that traditionally you would have thought would be impossible in in France and once you've hired someone you're kind of stuck with them forever and then they're a protected species and you know they're not allowed to work more than 40 hours a week or whatever.
16:43
Is that just wrong and and a a stereotype based on on previous fact or actually does does some of that labor law stuff persist which still makes it a bit of a challenge for entrepreneurs at the earlier stages?
16:57
I mean I would say it first of all that's a that's a narrow um way to look at the labor law because obviously there are ways around some of that.
17:03
And then the other thing I would say um is that there are always plus and minus with every system right?
17:11
So in the US you have people that you can fire from one day to the next but they can also leave from one day to the next and they can leave you in pretty bad situations.
17:17
Um so here we have, I think as in with most of Europe, um it's kind of a 3-months period uh for someone to usually leave a company, which also means in some cases you can wait for that person to arrive.
17:30
But it also gives you a heads-up if you have to if you have a key hire that's leaving, that person may, you know, be able to stay on a bit longer and not just leave you from one day to the next.
17:39
Um and with regards to hiring and firing, there's actually a system um and it's kind of like an agreement to leave the company.
17:46
So the employer and the uh employee can make a decision that we actually don't want to work together anymore, and it can end up being much much cheaper than having to fire, much less painful um than having to fire.
17:56
But I think we all have heard about those crazy stories that end up in the court and costing so much you have to shut down the company.
18:04
I mean, I actually think in the startup ecosystem, we really don't see that kind of thing too much.
18:10
I can't actually really think of any companies that have come to me like we can't hire, we can't make it work, um we seem to kind of be getting around that pretty well.
18:20
Last one on government policy, is there a a policy that you would love to see an exit in France and other countries that you think could make a big difference that still hasn't been done for entrepreneurship and spurring innovation?
18:34
Um gosh, that is a really good question.
18:37
Well, I think my I mean, the real gap in the market today is exits.
18:43
Um from a policy angle, I don't know really what we do to solve it today.
18:46
I think is there something we can do to encourage more M&A within Europe we even within our own large corporations here because I think a lot of the interesting M&A may come from internationals.
18:57
Um but then the IPO market is really something that I think is probably going to take way more uh effort to to solve, but that is where I see the we need to tackle that next, otherwise we're going to have a problem. I completely agree.
19:13
I think if you're a founder in France or the UK, I think there is so much capital available.
19:19
There are amazing accelerators.
19:19
There's places like Station F in France.
19:21
There's so much there for you.
19:23
It's never been cheaper to start a company, but we really do struggle in Europe, I think, with creating very large technology companies because of our public markets.
19:33
That feels like a very hard thing to fix because you can do whatever you want in terms of government policy and incentives.
19:39
But ultimately, if you don't have public market investors in London or Paris who value growth, who value technology, you you can't fix that as a as a government.
19:48
There's nothing you can do.
19:49
Do you Do you have any views on on how we can fix that?
19:53
Because it seems to me until we do, we're not going to get, you know, we're not going to get the next Google, the next Nvidia in in the UK and Europe.
20:01
And I think Nvidia is bigger than as a as a bigger market cap than the entire German stock exchange plus Holland and one other, I think.
20:07
So, this is a obviously a really serious problem.
20:13
Yeah, I mean, I I wish I had the solution.
20:15
I think I would be screaming it if I had it.
20:18
Um I do I think it's something that's going to take a lot more time.
20:21
It probably has to also do with a lot of probably has to do with more like education of the market more than anything, educating the investors.
20:32
Um but yeah, I I genuinely I don't know, and I think that's probably something where the ecosystem has spent a lot of its time worrying about creation, and I think rightfully so.
20:40
We didn't have, you know, people building and people getting funded and people being able to grow, and I think it also shows the maturity of our market that now we can turn our attention to that.
20:51
Um but I don't have the answer to that question. Okay.
20:55
Let's talk a little bit more about the path to building very big technology companies in France, the UK, Germany.
21:02
There are very, very few $50 plus companies of any type, let alone technology companies in in Europe that have been created.
21:09
ARM is one example, which is very big now, but very few others.
21:14
What do you think it will take to see the first $50 trillion technology company built either in France or or the UK? Really good question.
21:24
So, Xavier Niel, our founder, has been on a bit of a media rampage lately telling all the big AI companies in Europe not to get acquired.
21:34
So, I will repeat that message.
21:36
I think first of all, we do have a tendency of maybe selling early.
21:41
And I think especially where we have huge potential, there's some topics right now, like especially in AI, we're seeing quite a lot of interest.
21:48
It could be easy for a company to want to sell early.
21:52
So, I would say that's probably number one.
21:53
I'd say number two, and it's something that I hear a lot of the scale-ups talking about, is just in terms of the talent that we have locally, we just don't have a ton of experienced people that have kind of lived even through the IPOs or or exit phases of a company.
22:09
So, I think that is maybe a talent component that we should be looking at as well, and that maybe we just have less of on the ground.
22:16
So, I would say those are probably two things I could think of.
22:21
But, I definitely think some of the criticisms that we were hearing years ago of we're lacking ambition, we're lacking investors, you know, we're lacking talent to build the companies, it's definitely changed a lot.
22:31
What are the candidates out there at the moment in France that could be a very very big technology company?
22:37
Let's say, you know, let's be a little bit less ambitious, a $50 company or $10 company.
22:41
Mistral, obviously, people would have heard of, one of the big competitors to Open AI that was born in France.
22:47
Would that be the leading candidate in your mind? I think yes.
22:52
I think because everybody is comparing Mistral with Open AI.
22:55
We've seen where Open AI has gone.
23:01
We have a couple of other uh AI companies that raised large sizable amounts of funding.
23:05
Uh Poolside, which is split between the US and uh Europe.
23:10
We also have uh H company that raised a pretty big seed round initially um and has gotten a lot of attention.
23:17
So, in in AI I I definitely think we're seeing a bit of a trend.
23:19
Um within climate tech there was also a company, I don't know if we still want to talk about this this space with everything that's going on around Northvolt, but um we have a company called Verkor that raised about 2 billion to do um also uh energy-efficient batteries and they're building a a big factory in the north of France.
23:37
Um so, there are a few companies that I think could be big candidates.
23:40
I still think it's early days.
23:42
I mean, Mistral is not even 2 years old uh and we're already talking about them in this way.
23:48
So, I think um I think things could go very quickly, but I still think it's good to keep in mind that these are very young companies and a lot can happen.
23:56
Why has France been a real center for AI?
23:58
I think it's I think it's actually historically uh we have very strong uh mathematicians and in terms of uh data and stuff like that, it's just it's historical.
24:08
It's been around here for a while.
24:09
I mean, you have some big research centers that were uh built here by uh Microsoft and uh Facebook or now Meta um have research centers that they put on the ground here.
24:19
Google has a pretty big team now.
24:22
Um I also think I mentioned it earlier, we didn't dive into it, but the research tax credit here is one of the best in Europe.
24:29
Um and so, I think that also encourages a lot to put research teams in France.
24:33
Roxane, if we look at in the UK here, there seems to be this fervor to regulate AI, right?
24:39
It's like everyone in the in the UK ecosystems is very excited about the UK being the center of AI regulation.
24:45
center of AI regulation. We're going to be the place that defines how AI will work with society and how we're going to regulate it with the big conferences where we get, you know, leaders from all around the world to talk about how we
24:56
regulate and control AI, make it responsible and and Obviously, that stuff is really important, but there seems to be more energy going into making the UK the best place in the world to regulate AI than there is making it the best place to create AI. I don't really get that sense
25:08
I don't really get that sense from France.
25:11
I get the sense what you're talking about with tax credits, with university talent, and so on, that there is a real desire to make the country one of the leading hubs for for AI.
25:19
If you were looking at a country like the UK or other European economies, what would you be doing specifically on AI to really try to make your city, your country, uh, an AI hub?
25:35
Oh, wow, that's a really good question.
25:38
Um, well, first just to kind of respond to your point on the regulation.
25:40
I mean, I think Europe as a whole, we we tend to be seen as leaders in regulation.
25:46
Um, but what was very interesting with the with the AI Act, um, I did feel that at least from the entrepreneurs that I spoke with is that there is this consciousness now, which we we maybe didn't have 10 years ago, um, that we need to regulate.
25:58
So, regulation is necessary.
26:00
So, there was less pushback.
26:02
And I did feel that also France, um, within Europe was way more, "Hey, let's make sure that we're not penalizing our innovators."
26:11
So, that was really good to see that that there was definitely this level of consciousness.
26:15
Um, now, where we ended up, uh, so far, I don't know uh, if everybody is pleased with the result, and I've heard some people be quite vocal about, um, it's still is going to be a little bit prohibitive, but we'll have to see what happens.
26:27
Um, in terms of creating a big, uh, AI hub, what I have noticed, at least on the ground here, is that the AI it's almost infectious.
26:38
Some companies have worked with people at other companies, and they just kind of they all want to be together, they all want to, you know, even if they're not the same company.
26:48
So, in some cases, we're seeing, you know, people, um, are building a company, and then their friends that they worked with at I don't know where Microsoft or somewhere.
26:55
They're also joining them here because they heard this is a good environment. They know the investors.
27:00
They know the talent pool.
27:02
So, I feel like there's kind of it's very community-based.
27:06
Um and so, I would say definitely make a place where that community can exist, can thrive.
27:12
I think, you know, just being able to meet and there's there's a great energy.
27:18
Um and so, that's something it's very organic in many ways.
27:19
I don't even know if it's it's necessarily linked to regulation or any specific resource.
27:26
Well, maybe GP is, but um that's that's probably my my take on it.
27:32
I think that's really interesting.
27:32
It brings us back to Station F and the importance of physical space and place.
27:38
So, we had uh the British architect Thomas Heatherwick on the show recently and we were talking with him about the need for a sort of tech cathedral.
27:45
You created that with Station F in Paris.
27:50
How important do you think physical place is to have something like that in a city whether it's because it's a a symbol and and it, you know, the size and scale and beauty of it uh just symbolizes that this is important for the city, but also the other elements you're talking about, the the chance
28:08
meeting in the corridor, trying to bring entrepreneurs together to in a sense replicate what was so special about Silicon Valley and still is so special about Silicon Valley where you had just these clusters of brilliant entrepreneurs and investors who would bump into each other. And so, you would
28:20
And so, you would have that serendipity of, you know, going, "Oh wow, I didn't realize you just left your company.
28:25
Come and be my co-founder."
28:26
or you know, getting the the first angel ticket in from someone who's just physically next to you.
28:30
I'd love to hear your view on physical space.
28:35
Yeah, I mean, I don't think my response will surprise you because I obviously love physical space, but I actually have to say I don't think um when I started this job, I I appreciated uh the impact of physical space and face-to-face meetings.
28:48
And I say that having gone through we've gone through a lot in the last 7 years.
28:51
We've gone through COVID.
28:53
We've seen people really um you know, go to to very different ways of working together and meeting with each other.
28:59
I do feel that at least this is an ecosystem that really values face-to-face meetings.
29:08
Um they value, you know, in person events.
29:10
We're just seeing I just feel that at least this is an an ecosystem that cares deeply about that.
29:14
I'm also seeing more and more I mean there's all kinds of tools and online communities where people can exchange with one another.
29:22
It's not the same as sitting next to them.
29:24
It's not the same as bumping into them.
29:26
It's not the same as having lunch with them.
29:27
Um that just puts you on a different level.
29:30
Um so while you could probably email anybody and get the answer to your question, being able to show them something and just get their feeling and their reaction to it, um I think that's the kind of thing that really only happens in a physical space.
29:43
Um and then the other thing that's um probably, you know, just as important you mentioned Silicon Valley.
29:51
I mean, we do try to bring as many of the key players, whether they be universities, corporates, other organizations to Station F and have them within a specific proximity.
30:01
And that also just helps for efficiency's purpose, you know, you can spend half an hour and meet, you know, 15 key people.
30:07
Whereas, if you wanted to do that online, you'd probably have to spread that out within several days.
30:14
So in hindsight looking back, your giant idea I guess was that you can create this tech cathedral for Paris that supercharges the French tech ecosystem.
30:24
But at the beginning, was your vision as grand as that?
30:27
Or were you just trying to build a a really cool co-working space?
30:32
I mean, the vision in the beginning was put France on the map.
30:34
We think we didn't understand what what the map could actually grow to be.
30:38
We thought at least we want to be compared to, you know, London and Germany.
30:43
We at least want to be visible.
30:44
We want people to stop by here.
30:46
We want people to meet our our companies.
30:48
I genuinely don't think we expected so quickly to to to take the the space that we're taking today in the ecosystem.
30:58
So, we talked a lot about the influence of President Macron. He can't run again.
31:02
He's He's gone in 2027 at the latest.
31:05
What happens when the the big champion of French tech ecosystem politically leaves?
31:11
And specifically then what happens if he's replaced by someone like Marine Le Pen?
31:18
Um it's a very very good question and it's a question that we are starting to ask ourselves as well and be prepared for.
31:25
Um and I think we got a a little bit of a like dose of it this summer with the political situation here.
31:32
Um I mean I do think there is a there's a risk.
31:34
We don't know today who it could be.
31:38
When it if it goes to the far right, it's definitely not something that we're super thrilled about given their especially their their views with immigration.
31:46
And immigration is something that I've mentioned definitely fuels a lot of what we're doing at Station F.
31:52
Um but we also don't know enough about their business policies.
31:54
And there was a sentiment this summer in the ecosystem that the business policies may not be so bad.
32:02
Um but I don't I mean I'm hopefully hopefully I'm not projecting a lot of thrill about the idea of it being Marine Le Pen.
32:08
Um and with the other with the other governments as well, the other political parties that it could be, I I don't think it could be necessarily thrilling if it goes to the far left either.
32:17
So, I think if we're we're looking at the best possible outcome, we would want someone probably centrist like Macron or relatively close.
32:27
Who else is doing it well, Roxanne?
32:27
If you look around the world, who which other cities or countries are doing interesting things to spur innovation and create a tech hub to rival Silicon Valley.
32:41
Um I think a lot actually.
32:41
You know, every summer I take my team to a different ecosystem or within proximity.
32:47
So, we've done a lot in Europe so far, but we've been to Amsterdam, to Berlin, to London, uh to Lisbon.
32:53
Um and there's obviously other places that I'd like to go and that we've looked at, but we haven't been able to go to yet.
32:59
Um but I think there's actually a lot of really amazing things and even if they're on a smaller scale, some hubs that are doing some really meaningful things as well.
33:08
Um I think in the UK, I mean, UK was the ecosystem we came for like 2 days, we hardly saw anything because there's so much to see and we obviously were only in London and I hate also saying that an ecosystem is just one city in a country because I think you have sometimes really interesting pockets spread out to the country.
33:27
Um I think the Nordics are really interesting and we don't know enough.
33:29
I personally don't know enough about uh the ecosystems there, but we've heard some different names.
33:35
We obviously go to Slush and we hear a lot about Maria 01 this past year we were in Lisbon and we saw the Unicorn Factory.
33:43
Um we've been to Berlin and we saw what was the Factory.
33:48
I think Factory is uh kind of revisiting its model.
33:50
We even were inspired by them when we were building Station F.
33:54
So, a lot of different players and obviously we have to look at key hubs like the US.
33:58
Um we look a lot at Silicon Valley.
34:01
We looked a lot at what was happening with Miami also after COVID when it was gaining a lot of attention and we just want to understand uh sometimes why, what is driving people there, what is taking people away from other ecosystems.
34:14
Um so, we follow a lot of these trends very closely and I have to say, right now I'm also very intrigued by the Middle East.
34:21
Um I think there's a lot of capital, a lot of really smart ways of approaching the problem, too.
34:26
They're they want to really become a big hub and I think um, there's different ways of going about it within the region, but it's definitely a region to watch, in my opinion.
34:38
And I won't go into Asia, there's so much happening there, too.
34:42
I would agree with you on on the Middle East.
34:44
I I I think the sophistication of the operation in Abu Dhabi, specifically, is is extraordinary.
34:48
The level of talent and investors working the various sovereign wealth funds, uh the the ambition for the country, the desire to make it an AI hub.
34:57
Uh I think I would give a shout out for Estonia, as well.
35:00
I think Estonia has done a a phenomenal job as a small country.
35:05
One of the highest per capita unicorns per capita anywhere in the world.
35:08
Brilliant Prime Minister Kallas, who she's just left to take the foreign policy job in in the EU, but I think what they've done is really because they've been great at sort of joining up government policy to innovation, where, you know, everyone in the country has their health data in one app, and that data can be mined by health tech companies, and just really advanced stuff going on in in Estonia.
35:27
So, a shout out for the Estonians, um as as well.
35:31
I have to agree with you.
35:31
I think Estonia has done some amazing things, and I also think a lot of the time there's also um there's somehow a credible entrepreneur behind each ecosystem, who's also, you know, putting back energy from what they've experienced and lived with, and I have to think of Taavet when I think of Estonia.
35:49
And I mentioned Helsinki earlier, I have to think of Ilkka from Supercell.
35:53
And I think there's it's it comes a little bit back to what we were talking about with Xavier, too.
35:56
I think, you know, there's somebody usually kind of guiding the ecosystem in a direction it needs to go in, so. Couldn't agree more.
36:05
And for listeners, that's Taavet is the the one of the founders of of TransferWise, now now Wise, very successful uh UK fintech, but originally Estonian.
36:15
I'd love to ask you just about yourself for the final part of this conversation.
36:19
So, you went to a high school near Stanford.
36:22
So, you grew up in the US, you grew up you kind of in a way won the lottery.
36:26
You grew up in the heart of the world's technology uh powerhouse and then you decided ultimately to move to to Paris and now you've created almost single-handedly this resurgence in in French tech.
36:39
I would love your view on the differences in psychology uh generalizing of course between European entrepreneurs and uh American entrepreneurs.
36:50
And I you know the stereotype will be that there's just way more desire for risk-taking, more ambition, uh more of a can-do attitude from American founders and there's less of that going around uh in Europe.
37:00
Do you subscribe to that that negative stereotype or do you think that's that's out of date?
37:09
I think it's a little bit out of date.
37:09
I mean I've seen a lot change since I've come out here.
37:12
So, first of all, I have to say I'm going to talk about European founders from a very French perspective because I also don't want to generalize.
37:19
I imagine there there may be some differences.
37:20
Um but I think what I noticed when I first came out here, what had surprised me a lot, it wasn't it wasn't risk-taking but it was really this fear of failure.
37:30
Um people had failed, nobody wanted to talk about it.
37:34
I actually when I when I first arrived in France, I've been out here for about 15 years now.
37:38
Um I brought over a conference from the US called FailCon and the idea was to talk about failure.
37:44
And uh our first edition, everybody agreed to speak and nobody talked about a personal failure.
37:51
And I had to go and really insist for the further editions um if you're going to get on that stage, you're going to talk about a failure.
37:56
Um and in same was for sponsors.
37:59
I had spon- I had actually a sponsor tell me, "I will sponsor it if you call it WinCon."
38:04
And I'm like, "Well, it's not about winning. It's about failing."
38:07
So, I think there's there's definitely some but I think we've come a long way with that and I think it's kind of become way less taboo to talk about it since.
38:14
I've seen a lot of progress.
38:16
Um but I think maybe one thing that I actually still notice today, um, is actually the relationship with money.
38:27
And I think that it's very taboo, especially in the French ecosystem, to say you uh you want to make a lot of money, that you are making a lot of money.
38:37
Like money is just not really in the discussion.
38:39
And I think in the US it's way like it's a very kind of normal thing to mention in a conversation about a business.
38:47
We do these talks, public talks at universities around Europe, and we went to the London School of Economics the other day.
38:54
And uh the moderator, this academic, asked me why I thought the LSE had produced a lot of unicorns compared to other universities.
39:01
And they were saying, you know, is it because of the the melting pot of cultures we have here at the London School of Economics and the different disciplines, social sciences, and economics and all this stuff.
39:10
And and I just said, "No, I think it's because the LSE is basically the only uh university in the UK where everyone is there to make a lot of money and is hyper ambitious to advance their careers as quickly as possible and make as much money as possible."
39:25
And I can't really think of another university in Europe which is which is like that.
39:28
Maybe some of the business schools, obviously.
39:30
Uh but for undergraduates, and uh there was this kind of shock in the room and and and people really didn't like it, right?
39:36
They didn't want to engage with that idea that there might be some some greedy students, as they would think about it.
39:41
But I totally agree with you.
39:43
I think there was a a lack of comfort in Europe talking about and thinking about how do I generate wealth for my family and myself? Yeah.
39:52
I mean, it's just it's just uh I actually didn't realize it until I spoke about it not too long ago with an American investor.
39:57
And I was like, "Actually, I've been here long enough that it doesn't shock me anymore, but it's it's absent from the discussions."
40:05
Just no founder will ever mention it.
40:08
Um and maybe more so in France than elsewhere, even, because I think here it's really not well seen to be chasing money.
40:13
But it's a reality of uh of what we're doing, as well.
40:16
Do you think that the desire to build wealth for yourself and your family is actually the fundamental driver of the most successful entrepreneurs?
40:27
Um I don't think so, but I definitely think it's included.
40:29
I definitely think we cannot say that it's absent.
40:31
And so, the fact that we don't talk about it, we don't mention it.
40:36
And And for investors, it has to be present in the discussion.
40:40
That is the nature of their business.
40:40
Um so, it almost makes it even weirder if we don't talk about it. Yes. Yes. At Giant, we like both.
40:46
We We looking for partnership with entrepreneurs who genuinely going to try and solve a big global challenge because they want to solve that challenge for the world.
40:54
But we also love it when they're unashamedly saying, "And I want to make loads of money for myself and my investors and and be really commercial."
41:01
And the combination, I think, is a a winning combo. I would agree with that.
41:04
Roxanne, last question for you.
41:06
We ask everyone who comes on Giant Ideas, what do you think it is about Roxanne Varza which has made you such a success?
41:16
Such a success, I'm not sure.
41:16
Um I mean, I think I got really lucky as a foreigner in this ecosystem.
41:30
Um I think maybe kind of what made me different helped me in a way.
41:36
And I also think coming from the US gave me some credibility and connections and things in this ecosystem that was actually looking to be inspired by the US and was very was leaning in that direction.
41:48
How can we make ourselves more like that?
41:50
Um and so, I think uh in many ways maybe that's that's this angle, but I also think I mean, I'm a foreigner and I think foreigners sometimes when you land in a place, you work your ass off.
42:03
And that's also what I have been doing.
42:05
So, I like to think I I contributed and made it happen as well. Fantastic.
42:08
Well, I think the French are lucky to have you, and I wish you had moved to London instead of Paris all those years ago and done done what you did in Paris in London instead.
42:15
But I'm glad you you have done it.
42:17
Um, congratulations on all the amazing things you've done there and really excited to see what's next.
42:22
Thank you so much for coming on the show. Super. Thank you, Tommy.