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0:02
>> Today is Wednesday, September 9th, 2026.
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You want to tell us how many days we got till Christmas?
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>> Cuz we are live from the TVP Ultradome, the Temple of Technology, Ports of Finance, the Capital Capital.
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How many days until Christmas?
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>> 106 days until Christmas.
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>> Countdown really makes it feel like it's going faster.
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I feel like just the other day we were at >> 112. >> It's flying. >> It's flying by. Start shopping. Just do it. >> Yeah.
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And you actually have time to, again, like we talked about yesterday, remove your flooring, floorboards, all that stuff, >> and just dig straight down and install a permanent Christmas tree.
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Don't just get ready for >> Christmas 2026. Be ready for next year.
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>> You also need to start thinking about gift giving.
0:49
It's harder than ever to find good gifts.
0:51
The best gift you can give someone is helping them save time and money. Get them on ramp. >> That's right. >> Time is money. save both.
0:58
He used to use corporate cards, bill payments, accounting, and a whole lot more.
1:01
Mom, I got you a corporate card that you're going to love.
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>> Uh, anyway, >> pull this up. Pull this up.
1:08
>> iPhone Duo is going to be a lot of Christmas trees.
1:11
But what's more important than the new iPhone? >> Pull up this graphic. Foldable. >> Pull up this graphic.
1:16
I was hoping that Apple would announce this today.
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If you zoom in, >> what is it? >> You can see. >> Yeah.
1:23
>> The tree is actually the house is actually built around the tree. >> Yeah. Okay. Yeah.
1:28
>> Stop building a home and adding a tree to it. Yeah.
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And >> find a Christmas tree and build a house around it. Yes.
1:33
That's the Christmas spirit.
1:36
>> Uh >> our uh our mutual friend John sent this sent this to me this morning, so he's on top of it. >> Cool. Um let's uh let's do it.
1:43
Well, uh Apple has announced the iPhone Duo, their foldable phone.
1:49
Uh it's we'll we'll we'll pull up some video and react to a little bit of it.
1:55
Uh I >> question right away.
1:59
>> What >> how is this going to impact screen time?
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Is it do does your screen time go twice as fast because you're actually locked in on two screens?
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>> Should you do pixel adjusted screen time, too?
2:11
Like do you if you're watching a laptop versus an Apple Watch, if I spend an hour in Apple Watch, is that like 15 minutes on the on the laptop on the triple monitor setup getting triple the screen time?
2:23
We have the the AirPods with the cameras.
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>> They didn't they didn't do that.
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>> They haven't announced those.
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I don't think they're going to be reporting, >> but when that comes that could potentially help you add to your screen time by tracking screens out in the real world that you're seeing that aren't getting picked up. >> True.
2:40
Uh yeah, digital billboards that should go in your screen time.
2:44
Eventually, it's going to be 247 screen time.
2:46
Everyone's looking at a screen everywhere.
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There's our screen everywhere.
2:48
You're looking at the the windshield of your car. That's the screen.
2:52
Can we pull up some uh real pictures of the Duo? Here it is. >> Here it is. The Duo.
2:56
Um, so in this video, there is no crease.
3:00
I'm sure the YouTube tech reviewers will be hunting in all different lighting for creases, but it feels like Apple waited long enough to avoid a crease whatsoever.
3:09
So, you will get no crease in your >> That is crazy. Sitting there. Boom. >> It's cool. >> It's cool.
3:18
>> I think this is going to sell like hot cakes.
3:20
I think people are ready to spend.
3:21
It's going to be like two grand, maybe three grand when you max it out.
3:23
I think the Apple buyer, the Apple fanboy is ready for something that actually is a flex beyond like a slight upgrade.
3:31
You paid 30% more for the Pro.
3:34
Uh this says >> you you pulled out the big bucks.
3:39
You you dropped two grand.
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>> Well, and that's been the thing that the >> relative to how much value you get out of a phone, phones have always been incredibly cheap.
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even the highest priced >> you spend more time on your phone than you do in your car and your car is 10 times the price of your phone always like that's if not more.
3:56
Um and so I think this will sell very well.
4:00
Uh it'll be interesting to see uh if anyone if any new apps come from this if people need to redesign stuff like we're having Mikey from Sunno on the show later today and uh has an app that's really fullfeatured for iPhone.
4:14
You can make songs, you can scroll a feed of other people's songs.
4:19
Uh, but you do have to pop over to desktop if you want to get into their composer and actually deconstruct the song and shift around different pieces of the song.
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And then you get a sort of GarageBand interface. What's his plan?
4:32
Is he thinking, okay, this is going to sell enough that I need to re-engineer my app for a different flow.
4:38
uh you've seen even even using a lot of normal iPhone apps on iPads, it usually just doesn't feel quite right scrolling.
4:48
Um so I think there'll be a couple UI UX opportunities, challenges both.
4:53
Uh interesting little bezel there where you can see the screen is curved, but it's on a a blocked out squared off uh edge there in the center.
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Two cameras on the back, one on the front. Yeah.
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>> Leaving room for the iPhone Duo Pro with five cameras or something like that. >> Yeah. Yeah.
5:14
It really it really shows that the phone seems to be at least the iPhone is is certainly in its final form, right?
5:22
This feels like the biggest step forward in a long time and yet it does absolutely nothing new for you. >> A rave review.
5:32
Uh until the new paper that folds out.
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It's moderately It's moderately exciting because we're all It's It's moderately exciting because everyone's addicted to their phone and it's like cool new new screen, but uh it does nothing new for you.
5:47
It doesn't move humanity forward any way at all. Dirty.
5:52
You're going to be able to watch two reels at once and they're both going to be vertical. >> You think so? >> Yeah. What do you mean?
5:58
>> From the demo that I saw, it looked like it was you put the video up top and then you iMessage.
6:03
>> Well, that's because that was a horizontal video.
6:04
I don't think you'll be able to open two copies of Instagram at the same time.
6:07
>> No, I I think it'll be more like the um the iPad OS where you can have different windows.
6:11
>> So, you think you'll be able to do uh YouTube shorts and Instagram reels side by side? >> Ideally, hopefully.
6:17
>> Ideally, brain rot final boss over here wants to do it >> and then you can have the third one on the back.
6:23
>> Well, it's definitely going to be better for looking at charts on public.
6:24
com investing for those who take it seriously.
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They got stocks, options, bonds, crypto, treasuries, and more with great customer service.
6:30
What what is uh what is Apple actually doing today in the markets?
6:37
>> Brian says this could literally 2x GDP >> uh does the market like this?
6:41
I mean all this has been you know priced in but let's check on uh Apple down 1.
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27% today down 5% over the last five days but sort of flat on the month.
6:56
So, um, it's it's exciting to see John Turnis get a big win like early, like first thing as the CEO, first major, you know, Apple event, and it's a entirely new product, the foldable phone, something that's been rumored for years.
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Um, they didn't tee him up just to do a minor refresh. >> Exactly. Yeah.
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It's exciting that he got to come out strong with this.
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And it's also less of a risk than the Apple Vision Pro.
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If they'd thrown him there, then he'd be remembered, oh, his first thing was sort of a flop.
7:31
Even though I don't >> Yeah, I think this is going to be a hit, even though at all.
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>> I think it's going to sell very well.
7:36
I think a lot of people are going to buy him uh for a variety of reasons, but um I think uh I think it's just a good way to to kick off a really strong decade long run. Hopefully four decades.
7:51
Cooked couldn't couldn't make it to 95 in the seat, but Turnis I think you got it. What it takes?
7:56
I want to see Turnis running this place.
7:57
And >> so you're 100% getting the duo.
8:01
>> Uh yeah, I think I'll get it.
8:01
Uh I'll need to feel how it feels my hand.
8:04
But at one point I was considering carrying an iPad mini as my daily driver phone because I was like they so they come with Wi-Fi. >> 68 >> 68.
8:16
So, I have big pockets and so it would actually fit in my pocket and I don't like the phone feature of the phone.
8:24
I don't like getting phone calls.
8:27
So, you lose that because it doesn't have a cellular connection.
8:28
So, it doesn't have a So, you can never call me >> and it's not like you need a phone number for anything else besides calls like logging into pretty much any service.
8:38
>> Yeah, you can do two-factor on a on an actual like authentication app.
8:40
I think you could get by.
8:42
you might need to have a a Mac Mini hooked up somewhere that has a has a phone number attached to it that can route you two factor codes or something, but it did seem doable.
8:50
Or, you know, you just check your phone, your actual phone with the phone number at home later, but every day you just have this, you know, iPad mini that you pull out and it has uh it has a cellular connection.
9:04
I don't know that it can actually get phone calls, but it has a cellular connection.
9:07
So, so you can get data while you're out and about.
9:09
So you can be out in the world and scroll real >> data. What else do you need?
9:14
You don't need to make big data. I don't know. >> Yeah.
9:17
I mean, and it really comes down to look that the phone is is lighter, >> thinner. >> It's not lighter. It's not thinner. It is probably faster. It's bigger.
9:26
This is This is the opposite of your meme.
9:30
Typically, they come out and they say it's lighter, thinner, faster, thinner, thinner, faster, fit, thinner, faster. 12 times.
9:36
Uh, it's the best iPhone ever.
9:39
This is actually a different direction.
9:40
This is this is a response to your joke.
9:43
>> Here's here's something. >> Yeah.
9:45
>> Would you rather search work in iMessage or be able to get the duo?
9:52
>> Search work in iMessage. What do you think?
9:54
>> Like search in iMessage.
9:56
>> Oh, you want that to work? Yeah.
9:58
>> Personally, I would be excited about functional >> features of the core software that I use with the iPhone. >> Yeah.
10:06
>> Um among among, you know, many other things.
10:09
But, uh, Kate over on X says, "Mentally ready for my iPhone to start being slow, laggy, and having a bad battery."
10:17
>> You have that to look forward.
10:19
>> Uh, so did they they also updated like the normal iPhone? Is that right?
10:21
Did you watch a little bit of the earlier keynote?
10:27
>> That one is thinner, lighter, faster, better, stronger, all the different things.
10:31
>> They they updated uh Apple Intelligence Bunch.
10:33
So, there was I thought they haven't launched it yet.
10:36
I thought this was the launch of the Siri like it's actually gonna go out now. >> Correct. Yes.
10:40
Yeah, this was in the in the um launch video. >> Okay.
10:44
>> Um and also the old iPhone or not not the old iPhone but the new normal iPhone 18.
10:49
>> They were like oh the battery is like much better.
10:50
So all those things that Jordy they like said about the new iPhone.
10:54
>> Which which one do I have?
10:54
Because I got mine last year I believe about I have a 26. No 17. I have a 17.
11:01
So, they launched the 18, which is the same form factor, just lighter, thinner, faster, better, stronger. >> Correct. >> Okay.
11:09
But looks exactly the same >> from what I I mean, I'm sure some people can tell difference. >> Okay. Okay.
11:16
>> U But yeah, better chip or something.
11:18
So, I don't know, maybe you'll notice it with Apple intelligence.
11:20
I wonder if there's any gated features because I know that there were some initially some gated features uh for the Pro models.
11:27
You need more memory for the ondevice stuff. I don't know. Uh it'll be interesting.
11:31
I'm excited to get it in hand. See how it works.
11:33
I don't I It might It might be too much to open that thing up.
11:42
I'm thinking like it's pretty easy just >> for you.
11:46
It's great because you're such a newspaper guy.
11:48
>> It I do like a newspaper.
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>> Put your feet up on the desk and fold your phone open. >> I'm scrolling.
11:52
Yeah, something like that might make sense. I don't know. I don't know.
11:56
I was reflecting on Steve Jobs.
11:56
I saw a viral video about Steve Jobs predicting Chachi PT in 1985.
12:01
And the video is incredible because he arrives to this talk.
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He's giving a talk at a university uh on the future.
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It's just Steve Jobs view of the future in 1985.
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And he arrives on a helicopter with an entourage and they all get out of this helicopter and they go into this. It's amazing.
12:23
>> Unrelated, >> but uh more of a where is it? >> King in the castle. King in the castle.
12:30
>> Because the the video kind of takes kind of takes place in a castle.
12:31
Um but we can uh but we can probably play this uh this video here.
12:37
Let me let me pull this up. Uh I'll I'll send it in.
12:39
Um because you got to watch Steve Jobs in 1985 predict modern AI pretty well. What is that sound?
12:49
Is that us or is that the soundboard?
12:52
You got a new like just like vibe chatter in the background.
12:54
Anyway, while we pull that up, let me tell you about Railway.
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13:06
So, yeah, let's play Steve Jobs predicts chatbt in 1985 because I had a bunch of thoughts based on >> Aristotle.
13:13
And I read this, I became immensely jealous.
13:18
Uh, and >> I think I would have enjoyed that a great deal. >> And >> so, pause.
13:24
And, uh, >> he's the leadin to this.
13:26
What is the second video that's playing?
13:29
I think you guys have two videos playing.
13:30
Um, he's saying, I'll just read the transcript.
13:35
Uh, he says, "Do you know, did you did you know that Alexander the Great's tutor uh, for 14 years was Aristotle?
13:45
When Alexander the Great had a question, he would just go to Aristotle.
13:47
I think we can play the clip from the beginning now.
13:50
Let's see >> who Alexander the Great's tutor was for about 14 years. You know, Aristotle.
13:56
And I read this, I became immensely jealous.
13:59
Uh, and I think I would have enjoyed that a great deal.
14:08
and and uh through the miracle of the printed page I can at least read what Aristotle wrote without an intermediary and maybe if there's a professor they can they can add to that but at least I can go directly to the source material and that is of course the foundation
14:26
upon which our western civilization is >> blazing the printing press >> but I can't ask Aristotle a question I mean I can but I won't get an answer and so >> perfectly timed is that in in in our lifetimes we can make a tool of a new kind of an interactive kind. And so my hope is someday when the next
14:51
And so my hope is someday when the next Aristotle is alive, we can capture the underlying world view of that Aristotle in a computer.
15:03
And someday some student will be able to not only read the words Aristotle wrote, but ask Aristotle a question and get an answer.
15:15
And uh that's that's what I hope that we can do. It's so crazy.
15:19
He's just like, we got to we got to compress all the data down and be able to give it a conversational interface.
15:28
>> Large language models with a simple interface that anyone can use.
15:31
>> It's it's a crazy crazy prediction 40 40ome years ago.
15:34
Um, and I mean there's so many interesting details about that video.
15:40
Steve Jobs is probably the most famous techno optimist, the most successful technoptimist.
15:44
uh the bicycle for the mind quote.
15:47
That one continues to hit constantly.
15:50
Um but and you can see his excitement every time he gives a keynote he'll just be on stage like giddily testing Garage Band.
15:57
Uh but his delivery there too is something really really special.
16:03
I mean, you notice that, right, where he he asks a hypothetical question, then, you know, well, I could ask, but I wouldn't get an answer.
16:10
And he kind of like lets the laugh line kind of land and lets the audience, he has really >> basically the Mark German of CEOs.
16:20
>> I guess >> Mark German is the goat. >> Yes. >> Journalist. >> Yes.
16:24
>> And is the greatest, you know, founder CEOs. Yeah. Ever.
16:29
>> It just it's just it's just really really cool timing.
16:31
surprised it took you that long to >> because I thought you were talking about Mark German's comedic timing which is fantastic but uh >> Mark German's delivery of Apple >> truly he truly has Apple intelligence and his delivery. >> That's true. That's true.
16:47
>> Um so yeah uh I mean you can see uh Ben Thompson's called this out a few times but when Steve Jobs introduces GarageBand he is just so excited about this product.
16:56
You can see him in this one video uh introducing GarageBand 1. 0.
17:01
0 with John Mayer, which is really cool.
17:04
He has John Mayer come out and just like play some stuff on the guitar.
17:07
>> This is where I want to show you uh loops and uh I'm going to show you what a >> and he's just like chilling there on this computer on this stool.
17:16
>> It's going to be me uh using this tool something using loops.
17:19
So we come >> and just doing a live demo.
17:20
And if you if you scroll forward about halfway, you'll see John Mayer comes in and plays some songs. It's toward the end. >> There you go. It's a British invasion. >> He's just having fun.
17:32
Uh >> and so, you know, with the with the power of modern LLMs, like you can ask uh you can ask, you know, an AI version of Steve Jobs, what would he think about AI? I did.
17:44
Uh and I think uh I think the answer is somewhat interesting.
17:48
He said probably yes, with very strong opinions about what makes Astro what makes AI worth using.
17:55
That's speculation, but his own words give us a surprisingly good basis for it.
17:59
In 1985, Jobs imagined computers, capturing a thinker's underlying ideas so that a student could interact with them.
18:05
You could actually ask Aristotle a question.
18:07
He was already enthusiastic about something resembling a central promise of conversational AI.
18:15
But his enthusiasm would come with three demands in this hypothetical Steve Jobs analysis.
18:20
One, you got to give people new abilities.
18:23
learning, designing, composing, building would probably excite him most.
18:26
Two, you have to make it effortless.
18:28
I'd expect him to push for AI that understands what you want with minimal instruction.
18:32
And three, you have to make something excellent.
18:34
I suspect he'd value AI's ability to help someone realize an original vision much more than its ability to produce enormous quantities of generic content.
18:44
He would be anti-slop, but pro- AAI.
18:44
Uh Aristotle also had an interesting AI take in this in this imagined LLM version of Aristotle.
18:53
He'd care more about what AI does to our character than how intelligent becomes.
18:57
The the conclusion of this is Aristotle would favor AI as an instrument of human flourishing while resisting the idea that a life requiring less human effort is automatically a better life.
19:11
You must continue to create.
19:15
You must continue to work.
19:17
You will be unsatisfied if the >> create more than you consume. >> Yeah. Exactly. >> Forever. >> Exactly.
19:24
Uh AI that strengthens our ability uh is what's important.
19:26
And so what what I was going back and forth with you about was like was like it seems pretty clear that Steve Jobs would be excited about AI or some form of AI, but what would the reaction to that be in the modern era?
19:41
because I I tend to think that there would have been the natural cycle of reaction because of there's a whole host of things, political polarization, economic stagnation, wealth inequality, negativity, bias on social media.
19:58
There's so many different incentives that the desire, the impetus to tear someone down is uh is unavoidable.
20:04
And so I think we would be in this weird era where a lot of people would be excited about that particular vision for AI and yet there would still be, you know, viral videos complaining about the latest Steve Jobs keynote. What do you think?
20:23
because you've called for like the ste the the Steve Jobs of AI, someone who's an optimist, someone who talks about empowering humanity, focus on human flourishing, agrees with the arisatilian philosophy around AI.
20:36
But what would the actual reaction to be?
20:39
Is it actually a panacea or would it fall by the wayside like like all other attempts at positivity seem to have fallen by the wayside?
20:48
Yeah, I've come around to the technology itself being fundamentally scary, even though it's very cool.
20:56
>> And then you factor that in with with certain actors that are uh trying to >> uh position it as even, you know, more scary than maybe it is, you know, inherently.
21:09
>> Uh and I think even if we still had Steve with us, it would still be a mess.
21:14
Um, >> and he might be nicely counterpositioned, but it doesn't stop uh doesn't stop other people from, you know, >> maybe not >> poisoning. >> Maybe not.
21:24
Maybe not >> poisoning the discourse.
21:26
>> What do you think his pdoom would be? Over under 10%. >> Like 1%. >> Probably.
21:35
>> He seems like a 1% guy. >> 1%. He's the 1%.
21:37
Um, what did Joanna Stern have to say about the Apple launch?
21:42
There's a video here you wanted to >> new feature called live rewind. >> What is this feature? Let's play it. >> Let's see it. >> Hi, welcome.
21:52
Today's specials are an heirloom tomato BLT, Caesar salad, Caldell, lentil soup, chicken alfredo, the smoked salmon, and the avocado tart.
22:01
>> Just double press the digital crown in live rewind transcribes what was just said.
22:06
>> You can ask Siri about the content of that transit later.
22:11
This is great for when you're trying to recall a book recommendation, >> okay, >> a colleague's brilliant idea, or something you didn't hear the first time.
22:19
The next audio intelligence feature will help you remember key moments from daily conversations so you can be more present.
22:26
>> So, is it just recording everything?
22:28
Because that seems genuinely useful.
22:31
Probably not in the I mean, Joanna Stern, her take here is I don't know, maybe just ask the waitress to repeat herself. That's a good point.
22:36
But if you're actually talking to someone, you know, like your lawyer is breaking down a contract and you forget which part of the contract that the lawyer flagged as important for you to go dig into and get to the bottom of having a transcript there makes sense.
22:52
And you could ask the lawyer to repeat themselves, but it costs a thousand bucks an hour, so maybe you'd want to just transcribe it. I don't know.
22:59
Uh, what do you think about this?
23:01
if if I was >> there's gota be there's gota be some people there's got to be some people out there that are that are you know thrilled and and you know incredibly excited about this new feature and and um I would be surprised if there's more than you know hundred of them globally >> but um you know >> there's it just it it just feels like um >> it's just hard it's it's this whole event And it's hard to be excited about anything at all.
23:33
>> A lot of these a lot of these demos, they get harder and harder to feel natural and human.
23:38
Like the Garage Band examples, like pretty it's so much easier to make it look cool because you're there with John Mayer and you're imagining, okay, I got a buddy who can play drums, but I can't play bass, so I'm going to get uh, you know, Garage Band to fill in the bass digitally.
23:58
and I needed to compose everything together.
24:01
I don't really have an alternative that's super logical like just asking someone to repeat themselves.
24:06
Um anyway, it it's got to be a tough job working through um the like how do we showcase this in a non-black mirror >> at semi analysis as how we feeling on the crease? >> Yeah.
24:21
>> Are we feeling I haven't been able to get my eyes on the crease.
24:26
No, it it feels like whatever they did in the photography or >> that's the that's the one thing you would expect from for them entering the foldable market.
24:34
You would expect them to absolutely >> they are not going to get there's not going to be a crease on this thing.
24:38
I will be shocked if there's a visible crease whatsoever.
24:40
Um is there uh um Arthur from Vibe just resigned today. >> That's a joke. >> Oh, that's a joke.
24:52
>> It's obviously a joke. Okay.
24:52
Read read it out since you brought it up. Sorry.
24:56
Uh, I spent the last three years doing TV ad performance at both Vibe and Walmart.
25:00
Neither company is acting responsibly.
25:01
They are raising straight to self-improving TV advertising performance and gambling with our ROI. More thoughts below. I like it. Very good.
25:09
I was like, I only read the first line. Stupid.
25:10
Uh, Apple foldable crease.
25:15
Let's see if there's anything here. Uh, okay.
25:18
This is how Apple dealt with the crease issue on the iPhone.
25:20
This is definitely going to be the best folding on the market.
25:23
I think passport size of it.
25:25
Uh there's some there's some photos. This is a canyon. It's not a crease. It's a canyon.
25:31
Uh the crease in the middle isn't very noticeable. It's been handled well. I don't know. We'll see.
25:38
Uh it definitely seems like they were waiting for the technology to become post crease before they launched this because foldable phones have been out for five years, seven years or something like that and they've always been a little bit rough. The hinge gets dirty.
25:51
This feels like it will hold up for at least for at least one year to get you to the next one. What do you think?
25:56
You think that's the plan? >> Yeah.
26:01
>> Hinge lifespan of 11 11 months and 27 days. >> We engineered it.
26:07
>> Uh >> I'm trying to find new the an image of the the new Apple Watch, which I think they're calling the Apple Watch. What is that for?
26:16
>> Because >> it is just crazy to look at.
26:17
It's got the Jubilee bracelet, right?
26:20
It's got it's got a really chunky metal bracelet on it.
26:27
Anyway, let's see what uh the Grubinator says about the iPhone Air and iPhone 17 Pro.
26:31
Said, "Last year, an unplanned personal hiatus coincided with the time I should have been reviewing the then new iPhone 17 and 17 Air."
26:37
Um, he said 354 days is arguably more than a few, but uh, given I missed the window for reviewing them when they were new, I thought it might be interesting to consider the iPhone 17 Pro and Air on the cusp of there being obiated by the next generation of iPhones.
26:54
So, the iPhone Air is the nicest phone Apple has ever made.
26:58
Probably the nicest device Apple has ever made, period.
27:00
Just so nice and loves it. Um, 17 Pro.
27:02
I'm eagerly awaiting the daring fireball review of the uh of the uh of the the new foldable phone, but he's got to get his hands on it.
27:14
I got I got to know what he's thinking about.
27:16
Um yes, the Airmes Paris uh Apple Watch. Is this the Ultra?
27:22
That is a chunky chunky device.
27:26
>> Yeah, this is the Ultra 4. >> Ultra 4. >> You don't like this? >> What's not to like? >> Uh it's horrific. It's horrific.
27:34
Is that the Is that the dial or the the bracelet? >> Everything about it.
27:41
>> It does have a very odd interface to the actual watch with that uh with that bar that comes out of the clasp.
27:48
Like the clasp doesn't actually integrate fully into the watch.
27:52
It sort of has these two points that bolt on there. Uh yeah, pretty chunky.
27:58
But honestly, the the Apple Watch Ultra, this device had gotten so chunky that I think the chunkier band might fit better with the chunky watch because if you put a really thin strap on that, then you just have this massive bulge on there. >> Yeah.
28:17
I almost think they should have launched it as an ankle bracelet.
28:21
Imagine checking checking checking your super chunky watch by just pulling up your foot on the an ankle monitor.
28:31
>> The Boston Rolex >> and you could be in a meeting just looking down.
28:36
>> Yeah, I've seen some guys doing that with their whoops.
28:39
They put it on their uh on their ankles >> or Yeah. Yeah.
28:42
People are saying Bobby Bobby Cosmic says no pendant.
28:44
Imagine you have this skunky >> the flavor of flave. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> This clock. >> Yeah.
28:52
Uh, John Turnis was vague posting before this at 6 a. m.
28:54
He posted just a light and it was maybe a little bit too vague. Was that it? It was just a light.
29:02
It didn't It didn't really hint at anything.
29:04
Was this a >> What's wrong, Tis?
29:05
Afraid you might say something.
29:08
>> Was this a teaser that is there a folding thing here that's that I'm not picking up on? Is this an homage?
29:16
Samsung mobileus US hit X and said >> uh so far so same # it's time to switch throwing shots >> using the hashtag in 2026 they're going to go so they're going to be so dedicated to the hashtags on that brand account that it's going to become ironic and cool again to use hashtags and they're going to be in the perfect spot.
29:38
Uh let me tell you about Railway.
29:39
Railway is the all-in-one intelligent cloud provider.
29:41
Use your favorite agent to deploy web apps, servers, databases, and more.
29:45
While Railway automatically takes care of scaling, monitoring, and security.
29:49
Uh, in the Wall Street Journal, Wall Street Journal, they didn't talk about math.
29:55
It made it to the It made it to the digital version, didn't make it into the paper.
29:59
Uh, Navier Stokes uh did not make the paper edition of the Wall Street Journal, but Meta and their new personal AI agent did. It's right here.
30:11
Meta launches >> the absolute state of traditional media.
30:16
>> Hey, uh this is >> probably it's more profitable as a business perspective, right?
30:23
>> It's like what are you going to do? Sell math theories.
30:25
Navier Stokes was a $1 million prize.
30:28
You don't think Alex Wang can pull a million bucks out of this?
30:32
>> This could be a trillion dollar prize.
30:33
>> They can get I They haven't monetized it yet, but they got to put ads in this thing.
30:36
And will they do agentic commerce? What will they do?
30:39
Uh we were very excited talking to suer suenator yesterday about uh AGI for small businesses for folks who run ads on meta.
30:50
I still love that idea but they're going a different direction.
30:53
They're doing personal super intelligence.
30:56
Zuck's been talking about this for a year at least.
30:58
He's put out a lengthy blog post about how he wants AI to diffuse, how he wants everyone to have AI.
31:06
And now everyone does with the MetaMuse app.
31:10
That's a separate app that you get that will book restaurants for you.
31:13
Um, the Wall Street Journal has a little bit of a story here.
31:18
Meta Platforms is betting that making AI agents easy to use will get mainstream consumers to start adopting them in their daily lives.
31:27
The company on Tuesday announced a new personal AI agent that can buy goods online.
31:31
I think they partner with Stripe on Link.
31:33
So, I don't know if that just means that when link is enabled on a particular checkout, it'll be a little bit smoother or if it's like it's going to try and steer you towards things that are linked, right?
31:45
Because some websites do it.
31:48
It's really nice when they do.
31:48
Uh but um certainly getting closer to this uh can respond to emails and so do you have to link it to your Gmail, I guess, to to get to get that working.
32:00
uh and complete other tasks users authorize you to uh it to do for them.
32:06
The agent called Muse is accessible via dedicated app.
32:11
Users operate the agent by conversing with it like a typical chatbot and can choose their own names for it.
32:17
I saw some really funny ones. Tyler called his Mark.
32:20
Uh I saw someone else that's what someone gave it a really funny name like uh like they said like you can pick one and then the name of the agent was just you can pick one or something like that.
32:32
Uh bunch of funny hallucinations always happens with these products.
32:36
Everyone's going to uh have fun with them.
32:38
Uh the new tool is Meta's latest attempt to monetize its massive AI investments which are expected to top 130 billion this year.
32:47
The AI agent is free to access for uh most of what people need and has two tiers of subscription plans for power users.
32:54
100 bucks a month and $20 a month.
32:57
Uh Enthropic and OpenAI have quickly built multi-billion dollar businesses around agents capable of performing complex computer tasks.
33:02
But most of that usage is driven by software coding or other business applications.
33:08
Consumer adoption of technology lags behind offering Meta Apple and other companies potential for catching up.
33:12
The fact that we've given such a powerful technology in a package that is going to be really digestible for the product is one of the things that will set us apart from lots of other agentic products.
33:24
Meta's AI chief Alex Wang said in an interview um Ben Thompson was raving about the fact that it gives you a pretty powerful VM, eight gigs of memory and 8 gigs of storage that is yours sequestered.
33:38
And they're also implementing a lot of the security features that they have done with WhatsApp where there's end toend encryption.
33:46
>> Yeah, they got Moxy pulled into it apparently. >> That's really cool. Moxy is a legend.
33:48
So great on the recruiting front.
33:51
Everyone loves Signal and uh and great team there.
33:57
>> Yeah, the question is how sounds like if there's they're actually giving every user a computer >> uh VM, but yeah, it's like virtualized, but yes.
34:07
serious computing resources. >> Yeah. Yeah.
34:09
But the cost is going to probably be pretty significant.
34:13
>> So, so the VM most likely like spins up when you use it and then gets you know like you know taken down when you're not using it.
34:22
So, uh the actual compute hours that are associated to anyone but a power user and of course uh very quickly you can wind up spending 20 bucks or 100 bucks and that's enough to just pay for a virtual machine.
34:32
like you can go and rent, you know, a a true virtual machine to like host your website on Digital Ocean for like 20 bucks.
34:41
>> So Cass, the CEO of Open Door, uh went to X and said uh posted a screenshot of him asking Meta AI and WhatsApp and he said, "Please make WhatsApp the main interface for these things, Alex Wang, please."
34:54
And he just says, "How do I use Muse?"
34:56
And Meta responds, "Muse is a free AI assistant from Anthropic.
34:59
You can use it on the web, on mobile, or through their API." Yeah, >> go to cloud.
35:04
ai, create an account, and log in.
35:06
So, I'm looking at this post.
35:09
I'm trying to find why is nobody talking about how Meta AI thinks that Muse is a product from Anthropic and is telling people to go log in there.
35:17
>> That is weird that it would hallucinate that Muse is from Anthropic because there's not even any connection between those.
35:24
It's not like Anthropic ever had a product called Muse that I know of.
35:27
Um, very odd, but Meta AI of course is running an older LLM and then I believe you get you you still get thrown into a llama model I think when you're on Instagram if you wind up in a in an LLM chat.
35:38
And so there's going to need to be unification around all of these different products and they're going to need to eventually talk to all the same models.
35:46
Um but uh of course there's like scaling and all sorts of different uh issues that you need because some of these products that they've gotten to scale are pretty significant even even if they're not like the most talked about when you are a hyperscaler with billions of users and you vend an LLM into something like you've deployed that ad scale it's doing a lot and uh it's like you know the new Gemini 3.
36:13
7 flash bunch of great reviews, great benchmarks on things, but like they can't just stuff that in Google search on day one.
36:21
Like they have to actually scale it up. Like >> Yeah.
36:23
The question I have is do you think they does this seem like this was something they were working on prior to instinct gaining traction or is this an instinct clone?
36:34
I saw one post that was saying, you know, that that rumor that they tried to buy it, which >> Ruroc says, "There's a rumor going around that Meta and others made a 10 figure offer for Instinct.
36:46
That's a crazy valuation for a what one-year-old company, something like that."
36:51
Uh, Instinct turned less turned it down.
36:55
>> Uh, now Meta has launched some something like that.
36:59
>> And that's literally what the post is.
37:02
Uh uh Meta has launched Muse and now the timeline is reacting. It'll be a big deal. Sounds familiar.
37:06
Um yeah, I saw some people saying like now the people with distribution are coming in.
37:09
Uh I it'll be interesting to see how much uh what distribution looks like in the Meta ecosystem because yes, like Meta was able to win stories. How did they do that?
37:24
They didn't win by launching a Snapchat clone as a separate app.
37:26
They la they won by putting it in Instagram which already had the install base.
37:32
And so if Muse works its way into Instagram, which a lot of people do use, it'll probably get a lot of adoption.
37:40
If it's a separate app, it's a little bit trickier.
37:44
Now, the threads playbook worked.
37:45
They routed a lot of people to there.
37:47
Threads shows up on Instagram.
37:47
It has an advertising surface area. It's pulled over. What are they at?
37:52
A couple hundred million mus hundreds of millions.
37:56
millions. hundreds of millions >> mus and again it's hard to fully understand the value of that because they they're counting somebody who clicked through clickbait on on on in >> yeah there's that and then also >> but there's a really robust there's a
38:08
robust like real community of just pure threads users the other the other thing that I think about is like Meta has the advantage of being able to when you open all of their apps just put a huge billboard they make ad inventory just for themselves with the specs where you open around Christmas. Sorry, sorry. Sorry, sorry. >> Uh, sorry.
38:28
Just a little little slip there.
38:31
Um, but when you opened Instagram in Q4, it's like buy some of our, you know, classes, right?
38:36
And so I would expect >> I don't think they're going to do that until Muse has like, >> yeah, they'll get the early adopters on and and figure out all the kinks and stuff >> says Meta has been working on Muse for almost a year now.
38:50
You have to believe that that's true.
38:52
uh the Manis acquisition ties into that.
38:54
Uh the Zuck messaging around personal super intelligence.
38:58
I mean, when we interviewed him a year ago, we were asking about, oh, am I going to be able to use your AI to actually buy if I see a pair of shoes, will I be able to just buy it?
39:06
And he was kind of like, I'm not ready to announce that yet, but it was very clear that that's where this was going.
39:11
So, I don't think it's an Instinct clone.
39:12
Uh I think it will compete with Instinct.
39:14
And I think it's tricky because Instinct is pretty early and they are going up against uh a big company that's been investing and has a lot of resources to go after this very very hard.
39:26
At the same time, consumers come to Meta to be entertained.
39:31
Muse feels like a product for productivity and I'm not sure that people will put them in the same buckets like that.
39:40
It's it's it's very unclear.
39:44
At the same time, people do a lot of shopping on Instagram basically just scrolling and >> really >> Oh, for sure. Not not actually check. Are you joking? What?
39:53
Like >> just mess with >> No, no, no.
39:56
So, so like >> it's like it is like the most dominant shopping app of all time that positioned as >> but particularly people will like go there and not just search things but just like casually scroll and like linger over things so that they get retargeted, visit websites and then have the have the ads come to them.
40:13
And so you you could imagine that that on the shopping side that there's a lot of traction there.
40:20
>> Yeah, a lot of excitement around this climbing the chart.
40:21
climbing the chart. It is currently Muse is number three on the charts in the app store after ESPN fantasy sport fantasy sports and more and chat GPT um >> ESPN fantasy sports >> growing Daniel came in with an absolutely brutal ratio he quoted Zach's
40:38
announcement with a screenshot of the exchange that uh Zach had with with somebody during the early days of Facebook where he said yeah so if you ever need info about anyone at Harvard just ask I have over 4,000 >> emails pictures addresses is uh and student numbers. What? How'd you manage What?
40:53
How'd you manage that one?
40:55
People just submitted it. I don't know why.
40:57
They quote unquote trust me, dumb fs.
40:59
Um anyway, >> um >> growing Daniel never forgets.
41:06
>> Obviously, Zuck has grown up a lot since then.
41:11
>> Who punched him in the nose?
41:11
That's the question Ryan Peterson is asking.
41:15
>> Uh let me find the You sent me the image. Is this true? So, >> yeah. So, so here's the thing.
41:20
His nose is starting to look like this guy, Morab, who's a UFC champion.
41:25
And Morab has one of the most busted up noses in the UFC.
41:34
And Morab was the UFC fighter that Zuck was training with on that on that uh deck.
41:42
That's a lot of people are asking.
41:44
So So pull up this picture of Morab and you can see their noses are starting to look >> quite similar.
41:51
>> That's a really That's a really good sign that it zoom >> in there. He's pushing. >> Look their noses.
41:58
>> Zuck was like give me one of them right now.
42:01
>> Give me a nose like that right now. >> I like it. >> Um do you think so?
42:04
>> And I would expect I you know who who knows Rob could go and get probably surgery to correct this one.
42:09
It's a very cool battle scar >> aura. Yeah.
42:13
>> Uh, and two, it, you know, it this this tells me that Zuck is going way harder in training and he lets on int which I love to see.
42:21
He's like, he's ready for that Elon fight.
42:23
He's like, there's a chance I might catch Elon on a good day. He opts in. I got to be ready.
42:31
>> He's also going extremely hard on the Irish countryside, buying castles. We call them Lord Zuck.
42:36
We got a video now breaking down his latest real estate purchase, Strangali Castle in Ireland.
42:47
Let's play a little bit of this because there's some good voice over, some good context.
42:53
>> Castle and it can be found on the banks of the river Blackwater in County Waterford.
42:58
This Gothic revival mansion was designed by the famous brothers for John Kylie, a local landlord, former Tory MP for Clan Mel and high sheriff of County Waterford.
43:11
The house was complete in 1830 and it scaled >> he's got a bunky under there.
43:18
>> According to records, it took a brisk 4 and 1/2 minute walk >> that is a bunker >> just to get from the kitchen to the dining room.
43:25
Within the grounds there was a folly >> Chinese pagod and an aviary.
43:28
The folly which is known as Strangali Tower was built in 1826.
43:37
>> We're having David Pel on the show later to talk about architectural revival >> medieval and it served as he's going to have the resources to actually restore this and and do this.
43:47
Some of these castles are like cheap relative to like how epic they are, but the carrying cost of actually renovating or living in even visiting any of these places.
43:58
Just like cleaning out the cobwebs is probably six figures a year.
44:03
Um, and the landscaping's got to be extremely expensive.
44:07
But I think this is the answer to like where's the tech wealth going?
44:12
Like at some point >> he's either going to get bored of this or donate it or pass it on or it's going to fall out of the family cuz seven generations later the family's like, "Yeah, we don't really want this castle anymore."
44:25
And boom, you got a beautiful museum that was properly renovated and brought up to modern standards in 2026 and is prepared to actually house uh uh a bunch of >> this other video.
44:40
We're going to watch this quick video and then we're going to talk about absolute doom and despair.
44:45
>> Okay, let's doom it up.
44:47
>> But first, this little pallet cleanser. >> What are we doing? >> Emperor, dude.
44:50
Does that feel like that ever? >> No.
44:52
Um I wish that people did what I wanted them to do.
44:55
It's like that would be that would be fun.
44:56
But but in the meantime, you can have some fun. >> Yeah. Oh, yeah. I would have a chopper.
45:00
I'd have a I don't even know what I would have.
45:02
I would have an underground tunnel.
45:04
>> I do have an underground tunnel. >> Do you really? >> Yeah.
45:06
It's like more of underground storage type situation, but um but yeah.
45:11
No, it's a it's a >> Oh, wow.
45:15
>> Like a damn emperor, dude.
45:15
Does that feel >> um >> I love that the Theo von arc happened where like for some reason all the tech CEOs were like, "It's right of passage now. We got to go."
45:28
I'm disappointed we didn't get Satcha on Theo.
45:31
And I'm really disappointed we didn't get uh CC. >> Got a bunky. >> Zaki got a bunky. >> Zucky got a bunky.
45:38
All right, >> let's talk about Doom. >> Doom.
45:41
An anthropic researcher is quitting the artificial intelligence industry. Whoa.
45:46
He didn't just quit the company, quit the industry over fears that the lab and its competitors are racing to build systems that could spiral out of control and destroy humanity.
45:59
Uh this was not received well.
46:04
uh bunch of back and forth with another researcher chiming in saying that they uh they have a pdoom of 10% which is something that's come up years ago and we kind of went back and forth on.
46:15
Uh this all started with Jason Jacob Coxin who said I resigned from Anthropic today.
46:23
I spent the last three years doing pre-training research at both OpenAI and Anthropic.
46:26
Neither company is acting responsibly.
46:28
They are racing straight to self-improving super intelligence and gambling with our lives.
46:33
He is not happy with where things go.
46:36
And it got a 100 million views and 600,000 likes.
46:40
It's going straight on a Bernie Sanders billboard for sure.
46:42
Um, I worked on an actual thermonuclear weapons project, Martin Casado from A16Z says, and the dissonance was less bizarre.
46:53
And so he's comparing it to what it was like working on um very scary technology very different than what's going on today.
47:02
Uh and Evan uh Hubinger who works on alignment science at Anthropic previously Merie OpenAI Google Ripple Yelp I guess he worked the Ripple was the cryptocurrency is that right? Isn't Ripple XRP? Yeah.
47:17
Um he says Jacob is correct here.
47:21
We really do earnestly believe AI could kill all humans.
47:25
I personally think it's above 10% within the next decade.
47:27
I believe Enthropic is trying its best, but we do not yet have a plan to solve alignment for super intelligence and are clearly not on track to.
47:35
So, everyone's sort of pushing for a slowdown now, but then you go into the regulatory capture thing.
47:43
I've been seeing what >> Jess Buckingham says, bro got that PIP. >> Yeah.
47:49
A lot of people are like, are you giving back your equity?
47:50
blah blah blah blah blah. Yeah. Um odd.
47:51
Uh Nick Carter says, "If you actually believe this, you'd be committing acts of violent sabotage and terrorism against your employer. You clearly do not.
47:59
So stop self stop it with this selfrangizing twaddle."
48:03
Eleaser on the other side says, "Thank you for saying plainly what you believe.
48:07
I do appreciate it and the world could be even grimmer than it is otherwise."
48:11
We have uh we have Eleazar Yudkowsk's co-author coming on the show tomorrow, Nate Sorz to talk about if anyone builds it, everyone dies.
48:20
We'll continue the doom debate.
48:22
It seems like it's in the news.
48:23
Um lots of people were just going back and forth on everything.
48:29
Ryan Peterson sees it as a bull case.
48:29
He says, "I need to buy more stock in this company.
48:34
I've never seen such a commitment to making money regardless of the consequences." Um yeah, it is. It is.
48:40
Dar says, "If you publicly assign a greater than 10% probability to human extinction within a decade, you owe people a clear explanation of how you reach that number plus what would change your mind?" >> Yes. Yes. So, a Yeah.
48:51
A lot of people were uh upset that this felt like a vibe prediction.
48:57
Um very like, you know, unressearched and and uh he did link Evan did link to the anthropic uh risk report which you can read in full.
49:08
They have a reasonable scaling policy and they're talking about uh pacing the frontier, collaborating with other labs and I'm I'm oddly optimistic that this will happen.
49:22
Obviously, you know, there's the Sam and Daario can't even hold hands on stage in that India conference.
49:28
But AI has made strange bad fellows out of people.
49:32
Like if you had if you had said, "Oh yeah, in in six months Elon Musk, the guy who's calling uh anthropic missanthropic will be doing a deal and bring in Shalto to watch rockets take off at Starbase."
49:48
I would have been like, "No way.
49:51
No way can Elon Musk and Daario become friends."
49:54
Like that just seems like impossible.
49:57
Uh but the funniest outcome is the most likely to quote uh Elon again and uh yeah maybe there's this weird you know oh people wind up working together.
50:10
Uh there are other consequences of that.
50:13
Um there are some very serious >> just just thinking thinking that you know believing in your whole heart that things are that serious and then just rage quitting and not >> and not leaning in >> and trying like do you do you really think that the the rage quit method >> is >> I don't know I I mean some of these organizations are really big and if you're at a certain level it can be very hard to actually get things done in a large organization.
50:41
So you can be there and and say like, "Yeah, I've been sending a Slack message and emailing the whole executive team every day that I that this is the thing that I want to have happen and it's not happening and like I don't have the authority within this part particular role to actually have the change."
50:56
People sort of tend to think, oh, if you work for the company, you can exact your will, but that's not true.
51:01
Like you can work in the marketing organization, think you want to run billboards in, you know, Tallahassee, Florida, and not be able to get that done because someone higher up than you said, "No, we're not doing billboards in Florida." right?
51:11
Like things get vetoed for a variety of reasons.
51:13
So it's not like, you know, you just take a job at a 5,000 person company and then you can just do whatever you want.
51:18
That's not the way companies work.
51:19
Um it's uh yeah, it's a weird weird time. We'll see.
51:23
But uh there are there are serious there are serious uh like regulatory frameworks for not allowing collusion between big companies.
51:34
And so we might wind up in this other weird scenario where uh if if all the big labs are like, "Yes, okay, the government's not stepping in regulating.
51:42
We're going to self-regulate.
51:42
We're going to work together."
51:44
Uh then that could actually be a legal problem because uh you're not allowed to price fix, you're not allowed to collude with your uh that is like textbook antirust, right?
51:53
textbook antirust, right? Um, and then and then the other thing is that there's this weird dynamic I've seen playing out where people uh the AI leaders make a prediction and then the like the the outsiders criticize that prediction is like they're only saying that to raise
52:09
the next round or they're they're only saying that and this was the same thing with like all the labs were saying like we want regulation and then and then they're they're only saying that for for uh you know uh regulatory capture and it's like regulatory capture might be a side effect of regulation But the labs can still want it. And now I'm seeing
52:26
And now I'm seeing people online look at the look at what's happening and say we do need regulation and I'm willing to put up with that regulatory capture that may happen under that scenario.
52:37
And so there there's all these weird like predictions that happen way too early for everyone to digest because the people inside the lab see things much earlier and understand, oh yeah, okay, the next leg up is going to work.
52:51
The agentic era is going to arrive.
52:53
Swarms are going to be a thing.
52:55
Like we're we're we're like we're on we're on track to to to solve this.
52:59
Anyway, Jordy, one last thing and then we'll bring in >> one last thing.
53:01
Trump >> friend of the show Buco Capital quoted Evan with his, you know, 10% uh prediction and said, "Hey, uh quote, "Hey, Dario, congrats again on the great quarter.
53:13
Nice to see enterprise reaceleration.
53:15
hoping you could provide a little color on that 10% extinction number and some of the puts and takes that might have on further enterprise adoption and then just a quick followup after. >> Yeah.
53:26
What are anthropic uh earnings calls going to be like?
53:29
It's just going to be CFO and Dario or are there Daniellea going to be on? I don't know.
53:35
It's like that that that's not that crazy to imagine that that happens.
53:37
That that's like a thing that happens on the call. Uh very very odd.
53:41
I mean, I guess you do have like defense tech companies that have earnings calls and or defense primes.
53:50
They might get asked about geopolitical things that are pretty heady. I don't know.
53:52
Anyway, we'll figure it out.
53:54
In the meantime, let me tell you about MongoDB.
53:56
What's the only thing faster than the AI market, your business on MongoDB?
54:02
Don't just build AI, own the data platform that powers it.
54:07
Up next, we have David Khan from Sequoia Capital to talk about the state of AI. Good news. There's lots happening. So plenty to talk about. Welcome back.
54:18
Thanks so much for hopping.
54:19
>> Hey guys, >> how you doing?
54:20
>> Good to see you guys again.
54:20
You guys got a lot of range from Zuck's castle to P Doom.
54:24
>> There's a lot of range. There's a lot of range.
54:26
Uh you think he's got a bunky in the castle or do you think he has enough? It seems likely.
54:33
>> I think he's got I think he's got a doomsday dungeon. >> Dungeon. Okay.
54:36
The doom dungeon to go with Zuck's bunky. Bunky's bunky.
54:39
Uh anyway, what is on the top of your mind because there's so many different things happening in the application layer?
54:45
We had cognition on Harvey just raised a bunch of money like things are going really well with diffusion and the actual uh application of the technology there's value jobs apocalypse is delayed >> and should poom be factored into financial models for series A investments. >> Yeah.
55:03
Well, um I think broadly in AI right now, I mean the thing that seems really interesting to me is just the concentration of capital going into these big companies.
55:12
It does seem like the >> thing top of mind for me is just like the way the venture landscape has changed. Yeah.
55:18
>> When you think about doing this job five, six years ago, you had a hundred interesting companies that everybody was looking at and you're trying to find the next one and that's still happening and yet so much of the conversation today is about the top 10 companies. >> Yeah. >> And then >> Yeah.
55:30
>> Yeah. on that point is is the biggest is the concentration of capital into openthropic maybe XAI SpaceX 2 uh is that the biggest driver or is when you're talking about reshaping venture I've been much more keyed in on the fact that you get hugging face and open
55:47
router and there are now many decacorn liquidity events that I would think changes the underwriting if you're a VC and you're like yeah it's an early round it's a billion dollar valuation but there are plenty of examples of 10x returns at this scale. >> Well, I think I mean to me that's always
56:03
>> Well, I think I mean to me that's always been the case.
56:05
We were early investors in in Hugging Face and I think there's always been this thesis on you have a big community and you have a lot of bottom-up adoption and that there's a lot of option value in those type of companies.
56:15
companies. I think you'll see that get reflected back into the market where there's always these companies where investors ask a hundred questions about what does this become and yet you just have so much sucking sound from the
56:24
market that those are going to become interesting companies and it's so hard to be relevant and build something important and I think hugging face did that and open router did that and so >> I think they'll continue to be examples of that. The thing that's interesting to
56:34
The thing that's interesting to me just in this moment and it's like the fall of 2026, we're about to see these IPOs. Yeah.
56:39
Is this precipice of moving from so much capital and honestly this is not even like a tech market DC market thing.
56:47
Like the entire universe of capital has concentrated on this one sliver of the market which is kind of preipo late stage AI companies and we're about to see that transition into the public market.
56:58
And so I don't think anybody knows what ex how exactly that's going to play out, but it does feel like we're on the precipice of something pretty interesting.
57:05
>> It is wrong to think that it will play out as a binary one day liquidity wave. Correct.
57:10
Because uh there will be lockups and then many uh LPs will receive their stakes and want to hold.
57:19
Some venture capital firms registered investment advisors will hold as well.
57:24
So we're looking at like how exactly does that change the market because there will be the optionality of liquidity but not necessarily actual cash on balance sheets ready to go into the next generation of startups. >> Yeah.
57:38
I mean one thing I've been thinking about you guys remember 2021 you had like Crowdstrike and Data Dog were public and then you were investing in like private Crowd Strike and Data Dog, right?
57:46
And there was >> Data Bricks, right?
57:47
And you could go invest in Data Bricks and it was the same business model.
57:50
You sort of understood how this thing was going to trade when it was liquid.
57:52
Um, and I think that's what's that's what's interesting about AI right now is like there's no real politic comps for any of these private companies, but as soon as one of these companies, let's say Anthropic is the first to get out.
58:02
As soon as one of these companies gets out, then I think you actually have a better valuation framework for the rest of the market.
58:08
And so I think it is a healthy thing for the market when you kind of can look at the liquid, you can look at the illquid, you see how these things trade and it will it will provide a lot of clarity I think to the private market.
58:18
Why is why is SpaceX not a good comp for anthropic open AI and then even the smaller firms?
58:26
>> I think it is I think SpaceX was the beginning of this.
58:27
Obviously it's held up really well and for all the volatility and you know every day you my my brother and I always joke of like you know every day you see a news headline that's like stock was up 2% and it's like stocks go up and down 2% every day nothing happened and there's always like some reason why it happened by the way you know it's like oh went up and down.
58:43
>> I mean SpaceX has done has held up well you know there have been liquidity unlocks.
58:46
Everyone was super worried going into the liquidity unlocks in the media and nothing.
58:49
It was like a non-event, you know, where >> I remember the day of the big unlock somehow traded up like 7% if I remember correctly.
58:59
>> Like a short squeeze where all these guys were short and then they got squeezed out.
59:02
But um so I do think SpaceX is the bell weather and it's not to your point, it's not going to be a one day event, but I think it's an exciting time that these companies are growing so so fast.
59:09
I think there's a lot of demand for these companies and um it's going to be interesting to see that play out.
59:14
I think the second thing that we're paying attention to and I think a lot of investors are focused on is just like the full stack of the data center buildout that's happening. >> Yes.
59:22
>> Um there's I wrote this blog post maybe a year and a half ago.
59:24
Server, steel, and power are kind of the three pillars.
59:28
Obviously, everyone's paying attention to the server side, which is chips.
59:31
>> Uh steel side is the industrial side.
59:33
You know, you have Elon now making his own gas turbines.
59:34
So, there's a lot of emphasis on the industrial revolution component of this where you you know, we're out of we can't make more more of the components that go into data centers.
59:43
centers. And then of course the power piece where everyone's looking at hey we know how to get power for the next there's no there's no more power for the next you know 24 months and what are the what are the timelines and uh with these capex you these big capex projects you have to plan two three four years out who even knows what the world is going
59:58
to look like two three four years from now so I think that you know deeper below the you know cusp of openthropic the frontier models is all the things that make them possible and I think the market's pretty well educated on compute market now and investors are familiar with all parts of the stack but I think there's going to be a lot of innovation all across that. >> Do you think that the opportunity in the
1:00:17
>> Do you think that the opportunity in the grid, opportunity in power plays out more like the Neocloud market than the rocket launch market?
1:00:28
Like I've always said like, ah, it'd be amazing if we had an Elon of solar or even an Elon of nuclear.
1:00:34
And there's some nuclear companies that are doing really well.
1:00:36
Some of those founders could go on to build like the trillion dollar energy company, but it feels like everyone's focused on it.
1:00:44
There's so much capital flowing into energy.
1:00:45
Default would be very oligopolistic.
1:00:48
Bunch of great outcomes, but not this winner take all behemoth, but what's your model for where energy and grid buildout goes?
1:00:57
>> Yeah, my mental model is probably closer to the Elon case than NeoCloud case. And I can explain why.
1:01:00
Um, you know, I think on the Neocloud side, the primary innovation was financing.
1:01:05
That's that's sort of how I look at it. Real estate private buy. Yeah, exactly.
1:01:09
Like we're buying a bunch of chips from Jensen.
1:01:11
And Jensen, to his credit, was an amazing player in the ecosystem and has helped really build the ecosystem.
1:01:16
He made Cory what Cory is today.
1:01:19
>> Um, there was sort of this moment where Cory realized we can buy these chips, you can finance them with Blackstone.
1:01:24
Somebody's going to finance the GPUs.
1:01:25
There's a lot a lot of financing innovation.
1:01:26
Now, there's a lot of companies that have followed suit.
1:01:29
Obviously, you need to be a good dealmaker, but in some ways, you know, you could start a NeoCloud tomorrow. You know how to do it.
1:01:34
Getting access to power is hard.
1:01:35
It's not easy, but there's 15 neoclouds.
1:01:37
There's going to be more.
1:01:39
I think by contrast, and my partner Sean Magcguire always has a great framework around this on the hardware side.
1:01:45
He had wrote this hardware manifesto long before hardware was cool.
1:01:48
And he had this concept of, you know, in hardware there's potential energy.
1:01:52
And these hardware companies spend five, six, seven, eight years building this potential energy.
1:01:55
And it's because they're doing real very difficult R&D work and at some point that potential energy converts into kinetic energy and that's when you know stock prices move and uh and you see that with SpaceX which took 24 years to bake and you see that with some of these harbor companies >> and so when we you know at Sequoa as we're looking at the energy ecosystem um we've sort of chosen a few places to to make investments.
1:02:17
Sean was on the show talking about Valor which is our nuclear investment.
1:02:20
Um last week we announced our investment in a company called form energy which is doing gridscale batteries. That's a company.
1:02:25
It was founded by the guy who ran the energy business.
1:02:28
He actually started the energy business at Tesla.
1:02:30
>> Uh a guy named Yman Chang who is the probably the one of the top three battery experts alive today.
1:02:33
So just very very strong team.
1:02:35
And they're nine years in.
1:02:37
They spend nine years building these uh billion dollar batteries.
1:02:39
They just uh signed up a big project with Google earlier this year.
1:02:43
Um and so and then you you ask yourself, okay, well we're gonna have a lot of solar and wind.
1:02:49
Are we gonna have a lot of batteries on the grid?
1:02:50
I think the answer is yes.
1:02:51
And then it's you have a company that spent nine years building IP uh to go put those batteries on the grid and then this unique moment to go scale that up for AI.
1:02:59
scale that up for AI. So any I think there's going to be to your question like I think there's going to be three, four, five interesting kind of companies with deep deep IP that you can go invest in but I think it's different from the Neocloud space where what you really need is capital and access to GPUs whereas on the grid side you actually need you ideally want some real fundamental IP uh that is that is difficult and then of course you need
1:03:20
access to capital right so I think on the nuclear stuff what's interesting and a lot of these companies what's interesting you need to raise billions of dollars before you get to the promised land and so that alone own one thing I say to founders when I meet a lot of seedstage founders in hardware and I'm like even if I think your IP is amazing I can't invest if I don't think you can raise a billion dollars because
1:03:39
you just won't get there right and you'll end up getting consolidated and so access to capital um and and consolidating capital obviously is an important part of building these companies as well >> so what are you looking for like what
1:03:50
what are the tells of a founder who can raise a billion dollars is it great storyteller is it just actual >> I mean Isaiah is like a a great example even at the seed stage like honestly I look at the Gundo crew and I look at um
1:04:08
Augustus and Isaiah and their ability to sell you their vision was just on another level even before they had raised like 10 million bucks like when they were raising their first round they they were just different like they had a natural talent and then they've refined that and you have to be in a category that allows s you to sell this vision of a trillion dollar opportunity, a hundred billion dollar opportunity. What that
1:04:33
What that is, but I think you have that like natural talent and selling ability that is somehow inherent to some people.
1:04:39
Like there are people that are just way less compelling naturally and they get more compelling over time because they get more confident in their business and round after round and hundreds of pitch meetings and meetings with candidates and they just get better and better and better.
1:04:54
But then some people just start on uh you know at the at the 10 yard line and it they just refine it a little bit and then they can go from raising the $5 million round to raising a billion dollars. >> Yeah.
1:05:06
In our partner meeting we actually talk about this a lot.
1:05:08
I mean naturally this is probably the most important question that you have to get right in early stage investing.
1:05:12
And the framework we often use is would you go work for this person?
1:05:16
>> Because I think everything is sort of subsumed in that.
1:05:18
subsumed in that. like if other people have to be willing to go work for this person >> the decision of whether to go work for person is effectively putting 100% of your equity in this one company right so would you put 100% of your equity in this company and um and often you know we had Matteo the form energy CEO come in you have people kind of come and say
1:05:34
wow like I this person seems really serious this person seems like they're you know they have an incredible track record in his case he had built the energy business at Tesla um they they sort of done something that's really impressive early on in life >> um and I believe and There's a clarity of thought component which is so
1:05:51
sometimes pitches are coherent and sometimes they're not coherent right like there's sort of a coherent story which is like okay we you know we're form energy is building an iron air battery uh iron's really cheap air's really cheap that is why they're building an iron air battery right it's so simple and yet kind of makes sense and then it's like well why do we need
1:06:09
batteries well you know there's there's no sun out at night you know it's really simple things and I think something we look for in a lot of these conversations with founders is clarity of But if you can articulate to an investor who's not the most sophisticated, the investors are never the most sophisticated people around the table. If you can articulate
1:06:24
If you can articulate to an investor a very clear articulation of why this vision makes sense, why your plan makes sense, then you're going to be able to articulate that to an employee.
1:06:31
And then we have people like Sean who have PhDs in physics and can go incredibly deep on the science and technology behind it.
1:06:36
Um, and you sort of marry those two things.
1:06:38
And I think that's kind of how we make these decisions.
1:06:41
And we spend a lot of time with people.
1:06:42
We spend a lot of time getting to know the founders as well.
1:06:44
So Matteo I had known for six years before he invested.
1:06:47
Sean knew Isaiah for a long time before we invested. >> Yep. That's right.
1:06:50
>> You're not making the decision in a single in a single pitch.
1:06:53
>> How are you thinking about uh trying to time the acceleration of the real world?
1:06:58
Right now it feels like it's much faster to do things on your computer.
1:07:02
>> Uh and it's creating efficiencies and a bunch for a bunch of people and and companies and all these things.
1:07:08
But um we're not seeing the kind of GDP growth that has at least been predicted.
1:07:14
And it feels like uh in order to have that, we're going to need to see one a general advancements of of models and and and AI models that can, you know, actually be a drop in um uh uh sort of addition to your team or or or replacement or or whatever that ends up being.
1:07:35
Uh but but it feels like we're going to need to make a lot of and do a lot of things in the real world to feel that acceleration.
1:07:42
And even with, you know, the the launch of Astra, we haven't actually played this video on the show yet today, but somebody had basically hooked up Astra uh like and it can just drive your car now, right?
1:07:54
And it's not designed to, you know, it wasn't something that the model was designed to do, but the models are getting sufficiently advanced at understanding the world.
1:08:04
And it feels like we're on the cusp of this like acceleration of the real world which I think is going to be way it's very a magical experience to like say generate me an image of this scene in my head and be able to see it on your screen.
1:08:17
It's going to be 100 times more magical to be like make this thing in the world and then it just makes it right.
1:08:24
And that can be applied to uh real estate to building widgets you know the the list goes on and on.
1:08:33
Um, but robots building other robots and building things, um, I feel like will be the greatest investment cycle ever and much more exciting for normal people than just, hey, we made this software feature, you know, in two weeks versus, you know, 20 weeks. >> Yeah. Two thoughts on that.
1:08:51
I mean, one is I think it's so important to synchronize the timeline of your investment with the timeline.
1:08:54
to your point on like uh you need you need to understand when the market opportunity is going to convert and ideally you're synchronizing the timeline of the company with the timeline of the market.
1:09:04
So for example if you're trying to solve AI power and you're starting today it's kind of late >> you need we need more power like literally in a year.
1:09:09
So it's like you hopefully you've been working on that problem already for a few years.
1:09:12
If you're trying to solve nuclear and that's a 2040s problem great you can synchronize the timeline of being an early stage company chasing an opportunity that is really going to hit its inflection in the 2040s.
1:09:20
its inflection in the 2040s. So I think that synchronization matters and then I think the second thing you know it is interesting that VCs have really shifted toward hardware investing right like there's this broader trend uh I think Andrew came on the show and talked about send like we've been doing a lot of stuff in the hardware reindustrialization space part of that
1:09:37
is because of this feeling that the timelines are so fast in the digital world that it's hard to create modes and it's hard to create value so I think there's a reason why uh in hardware there's a feeling that you can create modes over many many years um and eventually obviously the ultimate emote to your point is going to be the machine that makes the machine, right? It's the
1:09:53
It's the it's the it's the re-industrialization of this country and I hope we're going to get there.
1:09:58
I think we're going to get there.
1:09:59
I do think sci-fi kind of preempts reality and so Isaac Asimov obviously imagined the most in iRoot, the most valuable company in the world is a company that makes all the robots and there's a reason I think a lot of investors own Tesla for that reason >> uh because they think that he's going to he's going to win on Optimus.
1:10:13
>> So anyways, I think there's a lot of companies that should benefit from acceleration in the physical world and there's a lot of investment going in there. >> That's awesome.
1:10:19
Well, thank you so much for coming on the show, breaking it down for us.
1:10:22
Excited to have you back soon. Always a good time.
1:10:24
Have a great rest of your day. Appreciate the takes.
1:10:27
>> We'll talk to you soon.
1:10:28
>> Let me tell you about Console.
1:10:28
Console builds AI agents that automates 70% of IT, HR, and finance support, giving employees instant resolution for access requests and password resets.
1:10:36
We have Mikey Schulman, co-founder, CEO of Sunno, >> here with us in the waiting room. Let's bring him in. >> Goat. >> A goat. >> A goat. >> Uh, yes.
1:10:48
Since I think since you came on the show last, we have all been completely oneshotted by Sunno.
1:10:52
Every time we come in to the studio, we're blasting Sunno songs.
1:10:58
We have a lot of fun with them.
1:11:00
Make a So for our friends, whatever the news is of the day, we're having a great time.
1:11:04
But how are things going with you?
1:11:08
>> Uh much better now that I know that you guys are enjoying the product. >> Yeah. >> Yeah.
1:11:12
I will say, okay, I'm gonna give you I'm gonna give you like I'm gonna give you uh >> I'm gonna tell you one thing.
1:11:19
I'm gonna tell you one thing and then I'm gonna tell you another thing.
1:11:22
I'm going to tell you one compliment sandwich. Yeah. >> Okay. Compliment sandwich. Let's compliment.
1:11:26
>> You don't need to compliment sandwich me. That's fine. >> No, no, no.
1:11:27
So, one, the product is like the the AI, you know, is it >> probably the AI product that has brought me the most belly laughs, period.
1:11:35
Like, it's just a joy to use >> daily user.
1:11:40
Like we have so much fun with it on the team. Yep.
1:11:44
>> I've pulled it up in situations in my own home that I think are hilarious to me, you know, less less funny to members of my family.
1:11:52
But >> um anyways, the product is just like amazing. It's wonderful.
1:11:57
I get so much joy out of it.
1:11:58
I think the software quality is bad. >> Okay.
1:12:02
>> In the app, like I think that it >> not on the model side.
1:12:05
>> Not on the model side.
1:12:05
Like the model is amazing.
1:12:06
Like the things that matter are >> like so good.
1:12:10
Like it's so unbelievably fast and I haven't even tried the new model yet. >> Yes.
1:12:15
>> But but the actual software I think you've been >> navigate or >> No, no, no.
1:12:20
It just feels like it's kind of buggy and it feels like you guys feels like you've been vibe coding too hard.
1:12:26
I want you guys to like you know, >> you know, basically do some cycles on just cleaning it up a little bit. >> Okay. Okay.
1:12:32
More optim compliment sandwich.
1:12:34
>> What do you think >> that that's a good compliment sandwich?
1:12:37
Let me um let me say actually >> I only got bread on one.
1:12:41
>> The final bread and it's amazing. >> No, no, no, no.
1:12:44
The the actual quality of the of the output is is the real level of listenable whereas like video generators, you're looking at it and like no matter how much efing test of like listenable, so you can have fun with it. Anyway, continue. >> I appreciate that.
1:13:01
We should probably stop releasing models while you guys are on air so you can actually have some time to test them out.
1:13:07
But um yeah, we'll I'll just take the opportunity to talk about what we're doing today, which is releasing a new model. Okay.
1:13:13
>> And so way better than the last one.
1:13:16
>> It's actually way faster.
1:13:16
And so you'll see the >> the way that you can use it when the songs come back so faster.
1:13:21
It's just very different, much more fun, way more expressive. >> Faster.
1:13:25
>> I don't know why it needs to be faster.
1:13:28
like it was already fast enough because I would type the prompt and I would click the button and then it'd be available immediately.
1:13:32
And I think that's because you stream it in, right?
1:13:35
Like it's still rendering in the background. Is that right?
1:13:38
>> No, the >> we're still streaming it.
1:13:38
Um but >> no, when I when I feel like it's slow is when I'm when I'm in one of these, you know, when I'm oneshot by a song, but I want to change like a certain word in the lyrics and I'm like, this has you covered.
1:13:52
Yeah, that that was the thing when I first when when we first started using when we first got one shot by Sunno, we would fire off a prompt and put your phone down and be like, I'll come back to it in like, you know, 5 minutes, see where it's at.
1:14:03
But then it' be back in like 20 seconds. >> Yeah.
1:14:06
>> Um I think the thing that people don't realize is that when you're building things in entertainment, >> actually the the loop speed, how quickly you give something to your users ends up mattering a lot.
1:14:16
We can actually measure that uh pretty directly and we know how much it matters.
1:14:19
But just going back to the model.
1:14:21
Um, so V6 is better, it's faster, the songs are way better, it's more expressive.
1:14:27
We have V6 Wild, which is, um, a model that makes just some of the most interesting stuff, even though the songs themselves um, may not be quite as good.
1:14:38
I'm having a ton of fun with that one.
1:14:39
And it's actually like a big day for Suno and actually for the whole music industry where this is done in concert in partnership with some of the best music companies in the world.
1:14:50
Um it's really kind of laying out a blueprint for how we think AI can really grow the entire music ecosystem.
1:14:55
So we're we're super super excited.
1:14:59
>> Yeah, we were talking about that. Yeah, we can go there. Sure.
1:15:04
>> Um on the on the partnership.
1:15:06
>> Yeah, the partners the partnership.
1:15:07
>> Everyone's waiting for a partnership.
1:15:10
Everyone's been been interested in how the economics will flow, what happens to uh songs that are used in training.
1:15:19
Obviously, there's a fair use argument.
1:15:21
There's obviously the the Spotify I want a royalty on everything forever.
1:15:23
Uh and it feels like this is the start of uh moving the conversation forward at least one click.
1:15:33
>> This is definitely an amazing start. Yeah.
1:15:35
>> Um, the way I think about this is yes, these are now not only new business lines and new revenue streams for rights holders, for artists, for all kinds of creatives.
1:15:43
Most importantly, these are really long-term partnerships that let us build products together with the greatest music companies with the best creatives.
1:15:51
And the thing that's so exciting is that for the first time in a long time, there's actually product differentiation.
1:15:58
There's the ability to build things that are just different.
1:16:02
And I think we've been so ingrained in the last 20 years just to think about digital music as one thing.
1:16:05
And so we'll be releasing more products in the near future that let you play with the content from your favorite artists.
1:16:12
When those artists opt in, when users play with their content, the revenues that are attributable to those users, a portion of that will flow to those artists.
1:16:21
>> And then again, just building more from that in the future of what should the future of music look like?
1:16:26
What are the most engaging fan experiences?
1:16:28
How do we pull people deeper into music and change the place that music has in their lives to change the place that music has in culture?
1:16:34
Um, and the thing that's so amazing is that there's kind of acknowledgement from all sides here like we have a very good start.
1:16:40
We don't know what the all of the products should look like and we're excited to build them together.
1:16:47
>> How does AI video play into this?
1:16:47
I notice that when I open, I often get served a vertical video feed of others creations that are often AI video animated in a pretty convincing way like you get a full music video basically.
1:17:06
Uh, is that something that you're planning to is it already available for everyone?
1:17:10
Is there just a button that can make these or are there sort of like more procreators that are using outside models bringing a music video to the platform? It's a great question.
1:17:20
Right now, that is mostly creators bringing outside technologies to bear.
1:17:26
>> I would just back up though and think >> the purpose of Suno is actually to inspire you to do things that you haven't done and not just to do the old thing of scrolling again.
1:17:33
And so what you may have noticed is those videos are actually really tailored to get you to lean in, to take a piece of content, you can actually remix it right off of that video.
1:17:42
Um, I think we're not used to thinking of ourselves as creators, us mere mortals.
1:17:47
Uh maybe you guys are you guys are are you know on TV every day but um >> it feels amazing to be creative and just getting people over the hurdle of actually I am a creator and I will find it really enjoyable to be creative.
1:17:59
Um that's kind of the magical spark that we're trying to bring to people. >> Yeah.
1:18:04
And I I have that all the time.
1:18:06
John will send me a Sunno song and I'll be thinking to myself, John, even though John, even though all I know, I know that John just wrote like a handful of sentences and he put the words and the letters in the right orders and it got that output.
1:18:19
that output. I'm still thinking there's a spark of like John is a genius for putting the this set of ideas together and I know that he was like thinking about the lyrics and how to arrange it and and and things like that and and so that joy of creation and and compacting it into something that and again I just
1:18:38
I've always seen this as like net new right like John like >> the the the idea of like a gag song you know like a joke has has been around forever but but the the friction to do that >> I thought we were enjoying it specifically because it allowed us to go after music that was basically low tam. So we could make a song about most
1:18:57
So we could make a song about most feared lawyer about John Quinn corporate lawyer that would never exist in any timeline other than when you drop the cost of creation to effectively zero then you can actually get this.
1:19:10
And I thought that was just us, but when I was scrolling, I saw similar similar experiences happening in other pockets.
1:19:19
Like someone made a a song about the Revolutionary War and they took a bunch of history and it's like George Washington.
1:19:24
Have you seen this video? I I don't know.
1:19:26
But uh it's all it's all animated with AI and I was like, "Oh, like this sounds like a Fourth of July banger, but it's historical, but no one is really going to sit there and arrange that."
1:19:39
And all of a sudden, you have this like very niche overlap of like you want a July 4th hard-hitting song, but you also want to learn history and like it puts it together in this really weird niche way, which I I I think is like happening all over the place. >> Yeah.
1:19:53
Look, let me let me say two things to that.
1:19:55
One is I'll plug um you can go all the way down to a TAM of one or two people.
1:19:59
You guys, I'm sure have IME messages with one another.
1:20:00
Um you can actually access Suno right from iMessage um if you have the latest version of the app.
1:20:06
And so it'll just be easier to interact there. >> Let's go.
1:20:10
>> But the other thing I would say is I think maybe the best example is I don't know if you guys saw this so-called Oreo gate. >> No.
1:20:16
>> Um of Oh, this is um uh a lady who took the text messages from her mom's chat about um her kids eating Oreos or sending Oreos to school and just using music as a platform to express >> I don't know what is special and absurd and benal about everyday life.
1:20:35
And if when I think about what was the alternative for her to be expressive like that to to use her vantage point, she basically would have had to become a stand-up comic to bring this to life.
1:20:47
And now you can use something like music do this in an entirely new way.
1:20:49
And it's something that I think like tons and tons of people really can relate to on a fundamental level.
1:20:54
How do you think about all the ways other than uh speed and overall feeling of music or or musical quality going from uh you know model generation to model generation?
1:21:09
One one thing I noticed uh with the last generation was that it would just constantly be referencing like glass in different ways.
1:21:18
ways. like I in a bunch of different songs it would come back to this like you know the glass shattering you know >> yeah I was talking to John to me to me it was like a tell that >> likeo developed its own terms of phrases yeah it's not this it's that or you're absolutely right like these version of that was different but it seemed to
1:21:39
exist how much are you hunting for those tells >> you know it's a it's a really tricky thing in music unlike let's say the the big labs LLM's intelligence there are no benchmarks and so these questions of taste end up mattering a lot lot more and even just measuring these things is really hard so um we are always on the hunt for kind of that telltale sign and
1:22:07
then yeah there's a good amount of judgment that goes into how do we fine-tune how do we post train these models actually what we're releasing today having both a V6 and a V6 wild v6 child being very differently post-trained to be way more interesting and basically a little less good at making full songs is kind of >> a start at bridging that of how do we
1:22:28
make sure that people actually have the most creative experience that they can >> back on the deal with Warner Music Group BMG believe I'm interested to understand how you're talking to investors how you see the market evolving over the long term because the the most extreme economic IC share might be something like what we see with Spotify. I think
1:22:49
I think they give maybe 30% of topline to artists across everything.
1:22:54
There's a huge stake of revenue that goes to creators.
1:22:59
Still a hundred billion dollar company. Fantastic business. We love Spotify.
1:23:02
Uh, and I'm interested to to to think about as the industry outside of Sunno, but just just AI generated tools, what type of economic structure would you see landing in equilibrium?
1:23:19
>> I think about this in a couple of ways.
1:23:21
There are things where we can think about how do we take the existing technology and really lower the cost and give it to way more people.
1:23:27
That's what you said before and you would never be savoring these moments if it weren't so easy to make music.
1:23:33
And then there's the whole other side of things of how do we actually now apply this to markets that people couldn't even fathom before.
1:23:40
And this is actually something that I, you know, kind of live and breathe every day.
1:23:45
>> If you rewind a couple years ago and people think music is really small, I don't want to invest in it.
1:23:49
And then you realize that it's not just that old TAM.
1:23:53
actually what we're doing is fundamentally changing how people interact with media, how people entertain themselves and realizing that that actually is much bigger.
1:24:00
And so to answer the question more directly, um this is actually evolving.
1:24:05
This is like we have some economic models now.
1:24:07
We have a lot of alignment to build products together and figure out the economic models that go with those products instead of having to figure everything out all at once.
1:24:17
the crazy time that we live in about AI progressing so quickly, we kind of don't have the luxury of trying to get it right in this very moment um because things change so so fast.
1:24:26
what's the uh what is the demand side from consumers on uh editability the pro workflow obviously the the model is outputting basically a complete waveform but you can also use AI to deconstruct that into stems into notes into sheet music and then uh a more experienced musician can go in and make fine grain tweaks and and just like you can generate an image and bring it into Photoshop shop if you want. Um, what is demand like?
1:24:58
What are you building there?
1:25:00
Where do you see that side of the business going?
1:25:05
>> We have a pretty broad product suite here from you can type in a few words or access it from iMessage all the way down to Sunno Studio which is our digital audio workstation which is really professional workflows.
1:25:15
What we've seen is actually by making those workflows not only different and powerful, but actually much more fun, >> more of the professional tooling ends up just appealing to average people who fall in love with making music.
1:25:28
I think this is a lot like I might buy the signature guitar of my favorite guitarist.
1:25:33
I don't think I'm going to be a famous guitarist, but it actually makes me feel really good knowing that I use the same tools that the greats use, and it makes me feel better about my creativity.
1:25:42
And I think that it's only for lack or it's a failure of imagination to think I can't actually fall in love with digital tools in the same way.
1:25:50
Like I know I am using the same tool set at least in part that make some of the best music.
1:25:54
I feel more creative as a result.
1:25:56
I fall in love with making music and there are virtual cycles there.
1:26:00
>> What are you learning from the early sparks of progress in AI video?
1:26:03
I was trying to think about the biggest AI video, the most viral AI video from last year and I was I I couldn't put my finger on it easily.
1:26:21
I can think about the previous year because that was Harry Potter Balenciaga.
1:26:24
That was the moment we were like, "Wow, this really like worked."
1:26:28
And I think for this year, music like rubbers by Phoenix Flexing, it's now out that it was AI generated.
1:26:33
I don't know if he used or not, but it it it sparked the conversation.
1:26:38
And then I'm wondering what next year looks like if we're trying to pattern match against the es and flows of progress in AI video.
1:26:51
>> It's a great question.
1:26:51
I almost think video is having a super interesting moment right now.
1:26:57
>> Um as there's a lot of new models and um >> they're getting more convincing.
1:27:00
They're getting uh easier to use.
1:27:02
Um and so um we look at that very closely.
1:27:07
I think the one maybe easy thing for me to say here is that actually speed ends up mattering a lot >> and as it becomes more affordable to really iterate a lot on video um because if you rewind let's say 6 months it's actually kind of prohibitive to make a full length video.
1:27:24
>> I would imagine that we're going to see some very interesting cultural moment and I think of these less as technology per se.
1:27:30
It's actually you gave the technology to somebody who has an interesting point of view who's able to express that point of view to the world with these tools.
1:27:38
And so um I think it's very hard to predict exactly which point of view that will be.
1:27:42
It's like a very cultural zeitgeisty moment.
1:27:45
>> Yeah, I remember I talked to Ahmad M.
1:27:47
>> There are going to be there's going to be at least one very big cultural moment. I will tell you that.
1:27:50
That's all I can say right now.
1:27:53
But there's going to be a big cultural moment involving >> music and technology.
1:27:58
I yeah I was talking to Ahmad Mustach after stable diffusion launched years ago.
1:28:03
This was maybe 2023 2022 and uh and he was predicting that by 2024 2025 uh there would be full movies that were AI generated and we we kind of got there but they didn't really break through.
1:28:22
But AI video is actually really successful.
1:28:24
It's just taken a very different approach and it's diffused in an interesting way where in it's making its way into VFX workflows all over the place and it's become very useful.
1:28:36
Um but it but there hasn't been like the fully the fully AI generated uh you know movie that is so good it gets over the hill of like oh I don't I don't want to like it but I have to like it because it's good.
1:28:48
Uh, and I'm wondering if that will be ne what next year in AI music looks like.
1:28:54
It's it's a tool that's in every uh every studio, every production, and and it's something that certain artists take off the shelf occasionally, but it's not fully AI created albums that are out, but it's also not fallen by the wayside.
1:29:10
Is that a reasonable prediction, or do you think that's too too uh too conservative?
1:29:18
No, I think that's actually not too conservative for the reason that an album is a or even a song is a is a point of view and it's very hard to just oneshot the point of view that is going to really resonate with the whole world. >> Yeah. um it does happen.
1:29:31
Um but I think of this as um it is a process of refining your own point of view over and over again.
1:29:41
And you may use an AI tool set, you may not use an AI tool set.
1:29:43
And so like I think that you know a year from now it's actually quite mundane that there's a lot of AI in um music.
1:29:52
It's like used in every single part of the production chain.
1:29:53
Some of it will be pseudo, some of it will not be.
1:29:55
But the idea that like there's just going to be charts full of one-shotted AI bangers to me actually kind of misses the point of um it doesn't express the point of view of the artist.
1:30:07
And I think that this is kind of a >> this is kind of a a faulty um comparison to let's say you know we just saw open AI maybe prove a huge uh math theorem and like this is something that is longunning that is verifiable.
1:30:20
Music is just not that way and so I'm not sure we expect to see the the same types of things.
1:30:26
Wait until I'm spinning up 1 million agents commands 1 million 10 billion instances of Zuno to create the gigab banger chart topper that sits at Billboard Hot 100 number one for a hundred years straight. >> Yes. Yes. The final song. I'm sure you can do it.
1:30:45
>> Um what was your what what was your takeaway from like the Astro launch over the weekend?
1:30:50
because uh the lots of like Blender models, lots of video games created and I feel like uh the the answer isn't going like like a million oneshotted web games were spawned this weekend and I could not be more optimistic about GTA 6 blowing out the predictions.
1:31:10
At the same time, I feel like as soon as I stop playing GTA 6, I'm going to get a text from a friend with a really hilarious micro game that they vibe coded that's GTA 6 but for TBPN or for tech or something and I'm going to be, "Oh, this is cool.
1:31:28
This is the special thing that only makes sense to me and you."
1:31:29
And so, uh, is that is that how you process that or is there anything new on the on the overall AI capability side that's uh exciting to you these days?
1:31:42
M maybe I'm too dumb to predict the future and so I would just look at let's say the last revolution there which would be Roblox letting people really start to make their own games and at the beginning it starts really small and people are really just playing their own games and eventually that technology progresses where you get more of that power law you get people playing other
1:32:00
people's games etc and then you make an ecosystem there >> it's not crazy that we'll see something similar there >> but again I think a game is a very it's a game's purpose is to be played by people >> and it is very different from the general intelligence uh model of things and so I think it's hard to really apply logic from one into the other. >> Yeah. >> Yeah.
1:32:19
>> Do you think that how much should we read into the the iPhone Duo launch?
1:32:22
Do you think Apple's so sunnopilled that they want, you know, every person to have more real estate to be able to make music? What's your read?
1:32:34
>> I really I really hope Apple's so soonilled.
1:32:35
Um, you know, humbly, I don't think we're the reason that they're making uh that they're making that phone, but if if you want to suggest that, I'm I'm very happy to take it. >> I'm suggesting that. >> Yeah.
1:32:46
Um, what a as as somebody who makes mobile apps, do you have you guys are you guys already looking into like the implications of this and and how it'll like how you're going to need to change your application to to be able to adapt to this kind of new >> might just be one prompt make it work on the duo >> for a lot of developers that might be the answer. >> Yeah, absolutely.
1:33:10
I think about this as opportunity of if there is different interaction with your phone, we actually are able to now inspire you at different times and like you can take out your phone and do something without unlocking it.
1:33:22
You can use one camera versus the other camera.
1:33:25
You know, I don't know what the plans are for the vision pro, but when I think about a final form of sunno, it's actually how do I get a vision pro app that I can put on and conduct an orchestra, you know, like.
1:33:35
And so I think when we think about interfaces, this is where in the creativity game, we will just work on forever.
1:33:42
You know, there's there's there's no end to working on how we delight people by letting them interact with technology in new ways. >> Last question.
1:33:49
Have you ever uh have you guys ever run any billboards or wheat pasting campaigns? >> Not that I know of.
1:33:57
Why you if you uh if you just the billboards we should >> well I just feel like you should rerunning a billboard that says make a song with a sentence >> and you should just go go hard on that because it's just like people people need to experience the magic of this product.
1:34:14
It's just like >> we got to not get people to pick up their phones while they're driving.
1:34:17
That would be that would be bad.
1:34:19
But we got to place those billboards in the right place.
1:34:22
>> Everybody's in Whimos now. Tesla cyber cabs.
1:34:25
Maybe >> case for billboards.
1:34:26
Whimos, you can >> No, no, no.
1:34:30
It's actually a bare case because Oh, you're looking down.
1:34:33
Everyone's going to be on their phone. >> Yeah, maybe.
1:34:34
>> It's going to be rough.
1:34:36
>> Anyway, thank you so much. >> The future's bright.
1:34:37
You know, you're going to have you're going to be sitting in your way.
1:34:39
You're going to have a lot more time to be creative.
1:34:40
Um, way better than driving. Way safer than driving. >> Yeah. >> Yeah.
1:34:45
You say nothing from my end, thanks.
1:34:46
And then you go back to making songs.
1:34:51
>> Great to see you, Mikey. Congrats on the launch.
1:34:53
Excited to try the new model.
1:34:57
>> Little uh a little high this time. Have a good one. Go by.
1:34:59
Let me tell you about Codeex.
1:35:01
Codex is a powerful workspace for getting work done with AI agents.
1:35:06
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1:35:14
Uh thieves raided the Renoir Museum in the latest French art heist.
1:35:18
We'll get to that story after we chat with Keith Ra Boy.
1:35:23
managing director at Coastal Ventures, returning to the show for the fourth, fifth, sixth time.
1:35:28
It's always a great chat.
1:35:31
Keith, how are you doing? >> Great. It's great to be back.
1:35:35
>> Have you been following this uh this French art heist?
1:35:37
Is this uh is this bearish for France?
1:35:42
>> I I have not been following it.
1:35:42
I don't know how I don't know how I missed it.
1:35:44
I was just in France last week and somehow >> Oh, you were in France last week. Are you guilty? Let's figure it out. >> Yeah, maybe.
1:35:51
You know, you never know.
1:35:53
Maybe I was stealing, perloining some, you know, artworks. >> Okay. Okay.
1:35:56
Well, uh, you're back in America.
1:35:59
>> Private markets are too frothy.
1:35:59
I'd rather swipe some some fine art. >> Yeah.
1:36:04
Are they are are they too frothy?
1:36:07
It feels like there's a lot of value.
1:36:07
A lot of the a lot of the companies, they're growing revenue. The products work.
1:36:11
They're magical sometimes.
1:36:11
Is it too frothy right now?
1:36:17
>> Well, I think the revenue traction's real as you pointed out.
1:36:18
And then there's a variety of different categories of companies.
1:36:22
Some are producing meaningful margin on that revenue and others are not.
1:36:28
>> And so I don't think you can paint with one broad brush and say, "Hey, all these companies, you know, are worth X or Y or not worth X or Y.
1:36:34
You have to kind of understand the fundamental drivers, but many of these companies have significant traction.
1:36:40
I'm not worried about that."
1:36:41
And, you know, I don't think multiples are the right way to evaluate private companies typically anyway.
1:36:44
But if you work backwards from 2030 and say which of these companies are going to be sustained, which ones have durable advantages, as I like to talk about it or communicate it through accumulating advantages, that's less clear.
1:36:55
Like the traction is off the charts by any historical norms.
1:37:00
The ability to go to 100 million in revenue from, you know, two years or so or hundreds of millions in four years, basically unprecedented.
1:37:08
But you still do have to ask questions about what's the sustainability of that revenue.
1:37:12
Not just because customers may or may not change their mind or there may be new competitors but like different the way the ecosystem evolves around AI is not at all easy to forecast.
1:37:23
So we struggle with this and debate this in our partner meetings constantly.
1:37:27
The the the founders are impressive.
1:37:30
The teams are impressive.
1:37:32
The revenue and the adoption is impressive and even the usage often is impressive.
1:37:37
But if you still say is this going to be an iconic company that's around for 20 30 years in many cases the question is not so the answer is not so obvious.
1:37:45
Now if you play your cards correctly you may be able to get acquired >> and that's that can be fine.
1:37:53
>> No and it feels like it feels like the the the powers that be in AI I'm thinking of one guy I won't name him is almost not willing to let any AI companies fail at the m at this moment in time.
1:38:05
at the moment he's playing an interesting.
1:38:08
So that company mints money.
1:38:10
>> Yeah, >> they're growing really fast and they have lots of profits.
1:38:14
>> If you're in those shoes, you know, and your revenue depends upon people buying what you sell that are mostly AI companies.
1:38:20
The strategy is incredibly coherent.
1:38:22
Now they are starting to move from being a platform company to a product company.
1:38:27
You can see it with the recent acquisition. >> Yeah.
1:38:30
as they start shipping products, maybe they ship products in other areas, they will compete with more people than they ever have before.
1:38:39
Right now, any AI growth is great for Nvidia, >> but as they start having their own products, that may change how people perceive them and how they perceive others.
1:38:49
And I think to continue and sustain their growth for whatever set of reasons, they believe they need to have their own products. >> Yeah.
1:38:55
And there's one thing that's interesting is there's so many companies that are marked up into the into the tens of billions of dollars that that are actually insignificant to the overall AI trade, but their valuations are such that if one were to fail, you would have all over the Wall Street Journal, Financial Times, all the newspapers, $30 billion company.
1:39:16
you know, >> it would be like a we work Theronos level failure, which like it would be for a very different reason, but like it would be that big. >> Yeah.
1:39:27
And I think that I think that the market would be able to process it generally, >> but like you said, there's just when when the cash is flowing, there's an incentive to make sure that, hey, let's buy this company an extra two years, right?
1:39:40
Even when there's no other investors lining up to back the company. >> Yeah.
1:39:46
Yeah, I mean it's it's in self-interest.
1:39:50
The the longer the AI wave continues, the better it is for Nvidia without a doubt.
1:39:54
And the bigger the altitude almost surely is better for Nvidia unless and until there's a better version of Nvidia or you know somebody obviates their competitive advantages which could happen.
1:40:06
It always happens in technology at some point.
1:40:08
Um you know we're seeing this play out now that what's the future of Google? Who knows?
1:40:16
But that was you know even five years ago for even formulating that question kind of felt silly >> but now it feels very realistic that you know a chat or similar interface may displace all of searches.
1:40:27
I mean the advertising revenue will like lag >> and so the business the business itself will show signs of life for a while but people I know and not all my friends and colleagues uh you know in different fields are tech forward have substituted huge fractions of what used to be searches with things they do with cha tea. >> Yeah. >> Yeah.
1:40:54
>> No the last three the last three Yeah.
1:40:57
the last, you know, obviously I'm I'm, you know, quite uh quite biased here at least like >> uh but I went from last year not making any real like commercial decisions with with AI to suddenly everything I buy all that research is happening within chat GBT and I feel like I'm buying better
1:41:18
better products and I'm having a better experience right I don't need to I have like very specific you know I have very specific things like My frustration with Amazon was always uh I just want to buy products that where the company has been around for 50 years, right? I don't want
1:41:32
I don't want to buy the the drop shipped thing with a with a name that doesn't make any sense that that's going to fail within the first year or whatever.
1:41:41
I want to buy the thing that I'm willing to pay 30% more to buy the thing where the company has been around for 50 years.
1:41:46
And so now I can >> Well, now you can now you can afford it. It's great. >> Yeah. But I'm talking Yeah.
1:41:53
the example he uses is like paper towels or like the paper towel holder. But that's very funny.
1:41:59
>> Um >> uh any anyways I I wanted to get right into how you are like what what is your in like what do how much are you pricing in a like a data center freeze >> or or or real friction to bringing in uh and like what is your mental model for what happens then?
1:42:19
Because on one hand, existing compute that's in a powered shell becomes potentially a lot more valuable and starts to trade hands as certain companies are able to monetize it, you know, much better than others.
1:42:32
But then there's potentially, you know, millions of of GPUs that aren't plugged in that the world is figuring out how do we shuffle these around the world to get them to places that that they can be plugged in and and the the capital flows that happen there and the impacts to the to the labor market.
1:42:48
to the labor market. like there's so many downstream implications of that and when you have both sides of the political aisle that are realizing hey I can get points for pushing back here then it's hard to imagine that there isn't like very real friction uh ahead
1:43:06
>> so I think let me simplify um sort of the AI exposure uh first and then come back to that the most devastating thing to the frothy hype and the traction that we're seeing with AI and the funding of it from VCs would be anthropic and or open AAI have a blip in their public exits, their public their IPOs. Do they have to show metrics
1:43:27
Do they have to show metrics over the next month to first few quarters that cause people to value either company less than the current belief that they will trade in the trillions is?
1:43:42
So they could have a miss on revenue tracking, a miss on margin, something something like that.
1:43:47
>> That would be catastrophic and it would immediately reset virtually all valuations in the AI world >> and probably deprive half the companies that are raising money from access to capital.
1:44:00
>> Well, yeah, and I've been asking I've been asking >> happen.
1:44:02
I'm not saying that's going to happen or is likely and I think if they miss it would be more on the margin side than on the revenue side right now.
1:44:08
But if they do, everybody is predicating the idea their their valuations in new investments in dollars on the idea that you can build a trillion dollar company within the life cycle of a venture fund.
1:44:23
There's two examples currently and there's several companies that people believe have the potential to get there.
1:44:28
If that changes and you cannot uh sort of predict that more trillion dollars or companies are can be created then the valuations that people are investing in and the dollars that are being invested do not make that much sense.
1:44:43
Let me backtrack one second.
1:44:43
Like basically in the history of venture a very successful company was 10 to50 billion maybe hundred billion at the max. That's like a home run.
1:44:51
That's like we all like dreamed about sort of thing.
1:44:56
It is possible now that at least one order of magnitude, possibly two orders of magnitude have been added to the upside potential of a startup, which does adjust the prudence and rationality of a VC investing $50 million at $500 million or whatever, whatever the case is, compared to, you know, when I invested in Airbnb, it was at $1. 7 million pre- or post. 1. 7. >> Crazy. >> Yeah.
1:45:22
So like um that world may or may not be coming back, but certainly by adding a zero or two zeros to the upside potential.
1:45:29
You can rationally look yourself in the mirror and you know say okay sure I'll take a shot on goal here.
1:45:36
But how do some of these investors and and I'm seeing these rounds, let's call them like series B and C stage rounds where a company has a much richer re revenue multiple than let's say the labs leading labs and they're growing like often like not not even necessarily
1:45:57
as well and you know they're not as talent dense and these all these rounds are getting funded and I and and that is that's like the that's like the face of of frothiness that I don't understand where I don't understand >> but I don't understand how you look at
1:46:11
the business and say like oh yeah this has a path to a trillion when it's like okay every single person working at this company >> tried to get a job at like four other companies couldn't and then is now here and that doesn't mean they're not great and they could very well build a billion
1:46:26
dollar company >> but I just I don't know how you you underwrite these things to that to that trillion dollar mark >> that's crazy >> no it's a very observation nor do I, which is hopefully on your list of companies that are getting funded that have those three criteria. None of them
1:46:39
None of them none of none of them are my investments.
1:46:44
>> But like if if you told me like hey company is growing less at a less rapid clip than the frontier labs with less density of talent um >> at lower scale at like 100x lower multiple >> and what's a higher multiple my answer would be no.
1:46:58
you know, I have some competitors I'll introduce you to if you want, but like um you know, and so >> I'll be in France.
1:47:09
>> I'll go find I'll go find a startup in France like there's one or two apparently that are quite good.
1:47:13
Um but the um fundamental driver though you identified which is key and a lot of people lose lose sight of so it's worth double clicking on the critical density of talent does matter. Yeah.
1:47:23
of talent does matter. Yeah. And so if a company is in the short term at low scale growing at you know xclipip that's not that critical if they have the right team assembled against the right challenges that is industable you know up to some dollars amount and whe whether you're like multiplying you know using meta's multiple or openai's
1:47:44
implied multiple or nvidia's multiple doesn't matter in the earlier stages if the team is stellar but your point is the team is often not stellar now it doesn't have to mean the same people that would work anthropic for open AI, >> but they have to be world class at what they do at their craft and you have to be able to, you know, assemble a density of them. You in some ways you want to
1:48:02
You in some ways you want to find people who are mispriced and that the labs don't necessarily value you as much as they should and there's an archetype you can scale a company on, but you still have to believe you're scaling with incredible talent like top one basis point, 10 basis point on some dimensions to really believe that you're going to create a trillion dollar business from scratch in less than a decade.
1:48:22
Do you think that uh differences in philosophy uh whether it's P doom or AGI pilledness can create subpockets of talent density?
1:48:34
We just had Scott Woo on the show. Brilliant mathematician. Cognition's on a tear.
1:48:39
Uh he I don't know if this is just because he's at like the application layer, but not a lot of doom, a lot of optimism because he's interfacing with the real world.
1:48:47
And I I love that energy.
1:48:48
And you see see with ramp too where incredible talent density but not of the crazy doom scenario weird like you know that pocket is a different group.
1:49:01
Those folks are really talented but they have different beliefs and so I'm wondering if there's if there's like the hyper talent actually scatters across different pockets of philosophical alignment. >> Absolutely.
1:49:14
You know it drives back from Peter's old expression of you know you're building a cult. Yeah.
1:49:19
>> Well, think about cults have tenets. >> Yeah.
1:49:21
And so some of that is a philosophy of life.
1:49:23
And I think that's right.
1:49:25
Like RAMP, we're optimistic about the future. Yeah.
1:49:28
>> We use technology to improve society and we're optimistic about a our ability historically to do that and our ability in the future to do it.
1:49:34
That's why people come to work at RAMP and that's what they do every day.
1:49:36
And all of them are thinking like the world's going to be better than it was a decade ago and it's going to be better than it was 20 years ago and we're gonna we're going to wave our magic wand to make it better if we have to. Yep. Yep.
1:49:47
Uh yeah, I am a firm devote of the cult of saving time and money. That is for sure.
1:49:54
But um uh what what do you make of the conversation around uh doom?
1:49:59
conversation around uh doom? There's been this back and forth around regulatory capture and the evolution of this and I've watched some people from the outside friends who are not in tech but critique tech from a political angle and uh they were upset about the
1:50:17
rhetoric leading to potential regulatory capture but now they are worried about some of the developments in AI and they're calling for regulation and so they're sort of begrudgingly giving the labs their due on the calls for regulation, but how have you been processing just this year? Has it
1:50:34
Has it updated you at all on how we should think about the probability of the bad outcome and doom and all of that?
1:50:45
>> Well, I'm I'm an opt I think people start often in life with, you know, orientation optimism or doom. >> Yeah.
1:50:51
>> And, you know, maybe from the time they're like seven years old, I'm an optimist. I'm a tech optimist. That's what I do.
1:50:55
If I wasn't a tech optimist, I wouldn't be investing in tech companies.
1:50:58
And there's a question of whether these people should be building or working there or forfeiting their equity if they really believe they're doing something that's bad or evil.
1:51:04
Um, in my opinion, like the world is getting a little tired of some of this because, you know, we had the gloom and doom about jobs. All jobs are going away. There's no human jobs.
1:51:16
>> Could still happen, but all the evidence as of today is to the contrary.
1:51:18
Every single piece of evidence there's, you could look through, you could be the Sherlock Holmes, you know, look with your magnifying glass.
1:51:24
You can't find any evidence that AI is causing creating job loss.
1:51:28
If anything, it's creating jobs. So, okay.
1:51:29
So, they're 0 for one, let's say, as of now.
1:51:33
>> Then they're like, "Oh my god, the world's going to end." >> Okay.
1:51:36
Well, hard to falsify that like AI AI jobs.
1:51:40
At least you can falsify.
1:51:42
You're like, "No, that's not happening." False.
1:51:43
Um, this one's a little harder to falsify.
1:51:46
But then I think as a couple people push back today online is well articulate how the world ends. Yeah.
1:51:53
>> Because then at least the pre the precepts or the predicates we can start trying to falsify you know and then prove or try to disprove that you know there's some risk there >> and then and I I do think that the reality is the world is always going to be subject to some risk.
1:52:06
You know, people like to compare to the advent of the nuclear bomb.
1:52:11
>> And you know, there's a very strong argument.
1:52:13
It's not, you know, QED proven, but the nuclear bomb in many ways probably made the world more peaceful.
1:52:21
>> If you went through the arc of history and like how many citizens died, you know, as a fraction of the population of the globe in conflict before and after the advent of the Gurbam, you have a pretty strong case.
1:52:32
It certainly wasn't negative. >> Yeah.
1:52:35
And is it but was that known that it would play out that way?
1:52:38
You know, on day one when we dropped, you know, a nuclear bomb or two in Japan? No.
1:52:41
Even, you know, there's this scene in Oenheimer where they don't even really know what it would do to the atmosphere and they go to consult with Einstein to make sure it's not going to blow up the world >> and he's like doesn't give him a very compelling like definite answer.
1:52:55
So, you know, like the world is free of is not risk-f free. Yeah.
1:53:01
Um, and I think you know all of us make decisions every single day.
1:53:05
We drive a car, we fly a helicopter, blah blah blah blah that you know take that into account.
1:53:08
So I don't think a zero defect approach to life really works either for humans. >> Mhm.
1:53:15
But I think the burden is on the people arguing for regulation or slowing progress down of articulating well what goes wrong, why and how and so that people can probe and push back and and try to evaluate and quantify that risk.
1:53:34
And I've yet to see a compelling answer to that that's not just like, oh, I know it because I was working on this and it's really dangerous. Mhm.
1:53:45
>> How many of these How many of these ideas do you think >> Wait, wait, hold on.
1:53:47
Let me layer on one other political point.
1:53:50
>> Even if that was 100% true, the idea that politicians are going to make it better is also subject to historical debate. Yes.
1:53:57
>> Like if you said we have a worldass problem on our hands, would you entrust it to the federal government or to a bunch of private citizens? >> Not obvious. >> Yep. Yeah.
1:54:07
Uh do you think that that um that basically these ideas around PDUM end up in the S1 because I would expect them I would expect Anthropic to >> um actually >> put this in as a as a real risk factor.
1:54:24
People are saying like, oh, you know, the the you know what they they got to stop the employees from posting this stuff.
1:54:30
But if but if it's coming top down, >> yeah, it might be just >> then >> proper SEC disclosure.
1:54:36
>> It could very well end up in there and it would be it >> I used to be a securities litigator.
1:54:39
So I can argue a couple kind of fun points on this.
1:54:43
You could say, hey, like if the real risk is the world's going to blow up, um buying anthropic shares is no more dangerous or risky buying anything else.
1:54:52
So it's not a particularly it's not a risk factor associated with anthropic. >> Sure.
1:54:57
>> A more nuanced view might be hey if the political environment were to appreciate that you can >> couldn't you couldn't you make the argument that there's like that that the company could with a runaway AI incur such massive liability that it it is a risk to their actual investment.
1:55:13
that that that's probably fair and there probably will be language like that but it'll be so toned down that you most people won't even understand it.
1:55:21
Um you know there's an old Peter Tian lesson here too which is if you have like risk factors you want the most possible risk factors so no one can really tell which one's really important.
1:55:30
So you might see an anthropic you know perspectus that has hundreds of pages of risks so you can't like isolate oh this is the one I should actually care about. Got it.
1:55:39
should actually care about. Got it. But the most acute risk probably would be something like hey we scare enough politicians that yeah you know they implement policy that's particularly in you know not necessarily imprudent but it could would you know constrain our growth and that is you know a real risk
1:55:58
if they can't control their employee uh blog post or expost yeah sooner rather later you know I think people are seeing through some of this you know there there has been significant ificant exposure of the fact that many of these anti-data center you know crusades are being funded by China intentionally by our adversary. >> There is you know real proof that
1:56:18
>> There is you know real proof that these data centers certainly do not >> waste energy you know waste water and things like that.
1:56:28
It's kind of a silly it's almost like a walking IQ test.
1:56:30
That doesn't mean that the political cost doesn't have to rebut it, but it is kind of a walking IQ test for someone if they really believe that data centers are going to like make the world run out of water somehow. >> Yeah. Yeah.
1:56:40
It's it's very ridiculous that the origin of that is like a just a simple calculation error that was off by a couple orders of magnitude and it just ran away before the >> unfortunately you can use chat GPT now to solve math problems.
1:56:53
I know but but it did it it uh it reveals like a different problem which is that like people don't do the calculations.
1:57:01
They don't they don't even need to.
1:57:02
don't they don't even need to. they they just go off of whatever >> how do you um >> tell me about your read on the dynamic between effective altruism and venture capital because I think there's a lot of like VCs out there that are just sort of
1:57:17
have like generally pretty like down beliefs about the future and maybe they're generally optimistic and then you get you know the pitch from a budding young effective altruist and part of it is like you know this person is just going to be extremely generally at least we've seen points like extremely risk on. >> It does qualify as a pretty good venture
1:57:37
>> It does qualify as a pretty good venture investment.
1:57:40
>> Um, but there's I feel like now there's been enough of a pattern of of blowups that you need to be like >> kind of wary, right?
1:57:46
Where there's like extreme upside, you know, potentially cat, you know, your downside's capped as a VC.
1:57:53
So, you're kind of like if you blow up, like it's more your problem than my problem.
1:57:57
But but but there's so much upside.
1:57:59
And so I I just think that like that specific dynamic there will be like a book written about it.
1:58:04
Um you know fast forward 10 years but I'm curious your view on it.
1:58:11
>> Well I think venture when it's practiced as a craft at its best is a matchmaking exercise between founders and a team and a vision and your sort of views about the world.
1:58:22
So I think that some types of founders with some beliefs about the world whether you label them you know effective altruism or something else could be a good match for a VC who sits around all day and worries about that stuff and would be a bad match for someone at founders form let's say.
1:58:38
>> Um so I think that you know the best relationships between a founder and their investors and a consigary or board member are when you have alignment kind of double tandra between how you think about the world and what's good for society and how the founder does.
1:58:58
I do not for example I do watch and I'm friendly with many people who work at uh prediction markets but I personally don't believe prediction markets are good for society.
1:59:07
markets are good for society. I believe in the Trump quote and actually I actually used the line before he did but um there it's just another casino for Americans at the moment and I don't think we need more forms of speculation in the United States for normal people and the evidence is that you know 99% of the people who engage in prediction
1:59:26
markets are going to lose money and I don't think that's necessarily a positive you know thing either I don't really love sports betting even though I love sports so but that's why I would probably be a bad match for someone who wants to build polyark market even though I like Shane or or Kelsey even though you know I hang out with Ter too. Um but
1:59:44
Um but >> it's just not what I believe that the future of the world makes the world a better place. >> Yeah. Yeah.
1:59:50
No, that makes >> and and I would just say that I think there's a lot of investors that have their beliefs about the way the world should be and then are willing to completely discard their values and beliefs to back companies because they're just like, "Well, the return is just going to probably be so good. I got I got it.
2:00:08
>> No, and I would say the percentage of investors that will discard their beliefs in order to get returns is like it feels like it's like 80 90 95%. I agree.
2:00:17
I agree with that assessment.
2:00:18
It's just why do you do what you do as you know in your professional career?
2:00:22
And at least at KV and this is true at Founders Fund too.
2:00:25
We wake up and say is this going to have a positive impact in society?
2:00:29
We have you know more money than we need.
2:00:31
We have more money to deploy and invest than we need.
2:00:33
We could be doing lots of things with our time and we want to apply our energies to solving problems that we think would move the world forward.
2:00:41
Um, you know, Peter and Trey have pretty strong filters on this stuff and Venode and I do and my I think all my colleagues at KV do, but not that's not for everybody.
2:00:51
I mean, some people, you know, work at hedge funds.
2:00:53
I don't want to work at a hedge fund either. >> Yeah.
2:00:56
Well, thank you so much for coming on the show. This is always great. >> Great to catch up. It been too long. >> Too long. >> Enjoy. Enjoy that art. Let's make it.
2:01:05
>> I miss I missed the first I missed the first month of you guys and I was like on every day. >> Yeah. Yeah.
2:01:10
>> Hey, you're always you're always welcome.
2:01:11
This came up because I was like we haven't talked to Keith in like way too long. >> It's always good.
2:01:15
So, >> we'll talk to you soon.
2:01:17
Have a great rest of your week. >> Cheers. >> Goodbye.
2:01:21
>> Let me tell you about Figma agents meet the canvas.
2:01:23
Your AI agents can now create and modify your Figma files with design system context.
2:01:28
We have David Pell here with us live >> in the TVPN Ultradome.
2:01:33
David, good to see you, man. How you doing? >> Uh, not much.
2:01:38
Hanging out doing the news, talking about new iPhone, talking about AI.
2:01:45
>> You were excited for another screen. Two screens in one.
2:01:47
The >> iPhone news and the Uber over. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> You getting one? >> Of course. >> Really? >> Of course. >> Okay. The fold.
2:01:55
>> He's going to be writing by hand on the screen.
2:01:57
more have a bookish look to it.
2:02:01
>> You don't need an iPad mini anymore, you know. >> Yeah.
2:02:04
>> Do you do the uh the the iPad for the notes when you do an interview?
2:02:07
Have you toyed with that?
2:02:09
You know how Chris Williamson, a lot of people have the iPad there?
2:02:12
Not the full I do the full computer, but >> you know, I've actually gone uh >> the key to a good interview.
2:02:17
>> I've actually gone full smartphone. Okay.
2:02:19
>> I've gone full smartphone.
2:02:19
I So, what I do is >> Yeah.
2:02:22
If you watch the interviews on the right side, I just kind of keep the phone >> and then what I can do is I can just do quick pulls of like, "Hey, check this thing. Check that thing."
2:02:31
>> I feel like if I pull out I feel like if I go on my computer right now, it's like, "Oh, he's doing something serious."
2:02:35
But if I pull out my phone right now, you're like, "This guy's really distracted. He's scrolling reels."
2:02:39
It it feels a little disrespectful.
2:02:40
But you've gotten over that hump.
2:02:43
>> Well, the other thing is I don't do it live. Yeah.
2:02:44
So, I do a bunch of editing, right?
2:02:46
So I think >> so you might say, "Hey, I'm going to look this up and then I'll I'll hit you with question."
2:02:51
>> I say, "Hey, if I'm looking something up, just keep talking, prep them on this." >> Cool. Cool.
2:02:54
>> And uh and then what I do is I watch every interview back. >> Yeah.
2:02:58
>> Uh which I've now done 130.
2:02:58
So I just >> that's that's my game film, you know. >> Yeah.
2:03:02
What's been the biggest one? >> Dark room. >> Yeah. Exactly. >> Screen on. Just locked in. >> Just locked in. Sitting there.
2:03:08
What's been the most recent interview that you that that you came away from being like, uh, this is what I want the show to be?
2:03:18
>> Uh, there's an interview I did with Dana Joya.
2:03:20
Um, he's Ted Joyy's brother.
2:03:20
You might know the Substacker.
2:03:22
And Dana is just so so well read.
2:03:24
Um, he lost a son when he lost his first son, I want to say, to sudden infant death syndrome when he was four to six months old.
2:03:33
And you can just feel, >> you know, our friend Jeremy Gifon has the line where there's prefall and postfall >> and you can feel when somebody is postfall, they've sort of >> wrestled with grief. Yeah.
2:03:45
>> Um and then you combine that with these really well read.
2:03:46
So I flew out to Soma, we recorded for seven hours, chopped into a three-hour interview >> and it was it was phenomenal.
2:03:52
You know, it's funny because you're asking about recent interview and this is what I love about YouTube is that interview did okay >> and then the algorithm found how to distribute it like 15 months in and now it's riffen.
2:04:04
So like last month >> that interview was our most watched interview in terms of watch time and it's two years old.
2:04:11
>> Wow, that's fascinating.
2:04:11
Uh how much are you thinking about booking guests that can go viral in the YouTube algorithm?
2:04:19
>> You sitting down with Clav anytime >> soon? Yeah.
2:04:21
No, you know, there's always like these people who come up on the cusp.
2:04:24
>> I don't care about that.
2:04:25
>> And it's like if you get this person at this time, you got one of the first interviews, you know, playing that game.
2:04:30
>> No, the game I'm trying to play is I think Patrick Oanes crushed it.
2:04:31
It's like, you know, you have these people who are coming on.
2:04:34
Uh you don't hear a lot of who's the guy who he did the the the hedge fund guy with the like John Paul speak slowly. Um Paul Tutor Jones. >> Paul Tutor Jones. Exactly.
2:04:45
Like I want to do interviews like that, right?
2:04:47
like Paul Jones hasn't done a bunch of podcasts. Get him on.
2:04:53
>> I don't really care about having something that crushes right away.
2:04:55
I want >> I want it to be like the Paris review interview series where you look back and I want in 50 60 years a be like this was >> snapshot. Yeah, exactly. That makes sense.
2:05:07
But uh to give uh to give Patrick even more of his due.
2:05:10
Uh I feel like he has a couple of products in one in the sense that yes, he does those interviews where it's like, "Wow, I haven't heard from this person in a long time. I'm so glad I did. This is amazing."
2:05:19
But then he'll also do like the a super timely interview with like Sam Alman about the news and the expectations for that company right then at the turning point.
2:05:29
And then he'll also do uh you know a catch up with Gavin Baker regularly just getting up to speed.
2:05:34
And so it feels like he has a couple series, a couple like, okay, this person's coming out of stealth and it's Gavin Newberry at etched and it's the first time you're hearing from this person.
2:05:42
He's almost breaking the news.
2:05:43
And I'm wondering how calcified you think about different products.
2:05:49
If you want to add, we've we have a few.
2:05:51
We have like a lightning round interview.
2:05:53
Founder Young, not hasn't done hours and hours of interviews, comes on for 10 minutes, tell us about we hit the gong.
2:05:58
Another person we might yap with for 30 minutes.
2:06:01
We might have somebody in studio for an hour.
2:06:03
We have different products.
2:06:03
I'm wondering if you're thinking about where how I write goes. Yes.
2:06:07
And whether you want to have different SKUs within the main feed, >> dude. 100%. Okay.
2:06:13
So, here's how I think about it.
2:06:15
I want to get the best writers in the world. That was my first goal.
2:06:19
And so, like this month is Andy Weir did Project Hail Mary, Jillian Flynn, Gone Girl, Michael Lewis, Malcolm Gladwell. >> So, good.
2:06:26
>> We're like, let's get the best writers. >> Yeah. Yeah. You You nailed it. You nailed it. >> Uh, wait, wait.
2:06:30
Are you the reason you're in LA?
2:06:31
JK Rowling's yacht is in LA. Is it happen? >> You saw this, right?
2:06:36
That was the big JK Rowling.
2:06:38
That way, the mystery yacht, >> the mystery yacht has been unveiled to be JK.
2:06:41
>> But but I I mean, you're going to get that like I'm just so excited for that level of interview to happen soon.
2:06:47
>> And so then the game is it's like a tea.
2:06:49
So then you go up, you kind of reach the top here and then breaking into I want to do music. I want to do music.
2:06:55
I want to have screenwriters.
2:06:56
Um and then just trying to break into that.
2:06:59
But the thing is we're kind of in a local maxima with the YouTube algorithm. Sure.
2:07:04
So this is sort of the grand irony of the whole thing.
2:07:06
I got into this because I love posting. Like I love posting. That is my thing. Like >> wait.
2:07:11
Isn't posting on YouTube a form of posting? >> It kind of is.
2:07:13
But the people who I like really feel like kindred spirit with is like you guys like you, you know, you had the YouTube channel like you were kind of going there.
2:07:20
But then what happened but then what happened was um the novelists, the poets, they were the best interviews and they were the ones that that that crushed.
2:07:27
And so now I'm in this like weird situation where like that's what I do. Yeah.
2:07:31
Uh but I like I don't know >> but but but it's just being a Nim cell in a particular community.
2:07:36
It's niche but that's valuable. What's a Nim cell?
2:07:39
>> Nimell is niche internet micro celebrity.
2:07:43
>> It's like it's like you know if we go to YC do we'll get recognized but like >> get a sound effect for that.
2:07:46
We get a sound effect but we can walk around anywhere else and you don't get recognized.
2:07:50
recognized. Like there are certain areas where like there'll be some cooking influencer where like every chef knows them or like an auto influencer where like every car guy cars and coffee everyone will stop Doug Deurro but like you know he doesn't get stopped if he just goes to like a Costco right it's
2:08:05
just the modern the modern incantation of the celebrity as we've created these pockets but um >> interesting what uh what are you excited about in terms of uh actual growth you're growing on YouTube you're also growing on Instagram you have some stats for us I want to hit the gong What you got? You got some stats? You got some stats? >> I got some stats. Yeah, >> some stats.
2:08:25
How How's How's the product doing? >> Been a crazy year.
2:08:27
So, we're going to do 6 million views on Instagram this month. >> What about YouTube? >> 3 million on YouTube. >> Whoa. >> No, that's been good. That's been good.
2:08:43
But the big thing, I think this one deserves the big gong.
2:08:45
So, we started a uh a YouTube channel.
2:08:47
I found this guy named Sheen Quirk. Crazy story.
2:08:49
Um, and we made this pilot episode with him.
2:08:52
His last name is Quirkirk. >> Quirk. Quirky Quirk. That's what I call him. Quirky Quirk.
2:08:58
>> He's the cultural tutor. >> The cultural tutor. >> Yes.
2:09:00
>> And so, >> uh, I found this Twitter account 2022. Yeah.
2:09:05
>> And I was like, this account rips. Like, this is so good.
2:09:07
And so, was an on and I was like, hey, we got to talk on the phone.
2:09:12
>> So, I get on with him and I expect like 65 years old.
2:09:14
He's writing about like culture and like ball arts and like buildings.
2:09:17
And he's like 24 years old. And I'm like, "What?"
2:09:20
He's like, "Yeah, you know, I live in the north of England.
2:09:22
My parents just got divorced. I have no money." Uh I'm like, "Cool."
2:09:26
Like, "What do you do for work?"
2:09:26
He goes, "I just quit my job at McDonald's."
2:09:28
And I'm like, "Okay, that's a little bit weird."
2:09:30
He's like, "Yeah, that's why I started this cultural tutor thing cuz I'm going to tutor people in culture to make some money."
2:09:34
Terrible way to make money.
2:09:37
>> And then he goes, "Yeah, I'm going to go join the British military if it doesn't work cuz it's been my dream to die for my country."
2:09:43
>> And I'm just like, >> I've known him for 10 minutes.
2:09:44
like about as long as I've been on the show right here for you know today.
2:09:47
And I'm like dude that is a bad idea.
2:09:49
So I just raised some money for my writing business at the time and I made him a writer in residence.
2:09:55
>> He had 100,000 followers at the time. >> 3 years later 1. 6 mil on Twitter.
2:10:01
>> We're in London last year walking around.
2:10:03
He's giving me a tour every day.
2:10:04
I'm like dude you can write well but you are an amazing speaker.
2:10:06
You are the next Bourdain. >> Sure.
2:10:09
>> So I said hey let's make a pilot episode.
2:10:11
Put in 150 grand of my own money.
2:10:13
I really believe in this guy.
2:10:15
>> And uh we went to Hollywood.
2:10:15
They said, "No, we're not interested.
2:10:17
Go make a pilot episode."
2:10:19
So we had a pilot, Tommy Lee, the director in the back right there.
2:10:24
>> And uh we published it from a account with zero subs.
2:10:26
It was our goal to get 100,000 views and then go pitch Hollywood.
2:10:30
And we did 100,000 views in 18 hours. And then 5. 6 million views now.
2:10:36
>> And just from that one video, almost a quarter million subs.
2:10:38
Are you optimistic about being able to break into Hollywood?
2:10:42
This year has been like the crossover year with Markiplier, Obsession, Back Rooms, right?
2:10:46
Like Hollywood is seeing that they can print on adaptations of internet.
2:10:54
>> Do you need Do you need Hollywood?
2:10:55
>> Do you need Hollywood?
2:10:55
Now you Now you walk in with a with your pilot, it's like, I shot your your freaking pilot. >> Here you go.
2:11:02
>> But then it's like, do you actually need them?
2:11:04
Can you figure out a way to >> This is the driving question of my life right now.
2:11:08
Yeah, >> this is we're trying to figure it out.
2:11:08
I mean, we went to >> we went to one of the major studios here yesterday.
2:11:15
We had a meeting with them.
2:11:17
This is what Hollywood tells us.
2:11:19
>> They want exclusivity of person or exclusivity of place.
2:11:23
>> So, if you can go film in the Systeine Chapel and other people can't, they love that.
2:11:27
And then if you're you're like, "Hey, Brad Pitt's really interested in architecture.
2:11:31
Let's have Brad Pitt be the host." They also love that.
2:11:32
They're like, "We'll give you money for that."
2:11:35
Brad Pitt and the Systeine Chapel and they're like, "One more change.
2:11:36
It needs to be a lowbudget horror film." >> Low budget horror.
2:11:41
>> We're just going to have a one note. Uh, no.
2:11:44
>> But I don't think I I don't think we're going to go that route. >> No. >> No.
2:11:48
>> I mean, I I would >> I don't think we're going to go Their pitch isn't compelling. >> Yeah. Well, yeah.
2:11:53
I mean, the thing is is that >> what what is the actual pitch?
2:11:55
It's It's capital and then we'll get you >> Yeah.
2:12:00
Well, I would say even more like >> in what way is a streaming service exciting?
2:12:05
I think that streaming service is exciting in two ways.
2:12:07
One, you have Amazon, HBO, Apple, whatever.
2:12:09
They can give you budget to make something awesome.
2:12:12
That's the first thing, budget.
2:12:14
The second thing is prestige.
2:12:14
And you know, I think the root of prestige translates to illusion.
2:12:17
And I just always try to remind myself of that because YouTube is, you know, you can really get views now. >> Yeah.
2:12:24
They are not going they're not in the business right now of talent development.
2:12:28
They will attach Brad Pitt, but they are not going to allow you to spend their money building the cultural tutor into the next Anthony Bourdain.
2:12:36
You're going to have to do that on your own platform.
2:12:37
And then when you're ready and you've ready to rest on your laurels, they'll be like, "Welcome finally open."
2:12:44
>> So this what's funny about that.
2:12:44
So Sunday I was at uh Sundance in Utah, not at the festival, but just at the just at the hotel, and that's where Robert Redford started the film festival. >> Yeah.
2:12:54
And so as you walk through the main room, they just got all these photos of old Hollywood and it was so cool.
2:13:00
It was like a bunch of risktaking and all that.
2:13:02
And what happened, the reason why Hollywood is boring >> and the reason why a lot of the modern world is boring and I credit Derek Thompson with making this observation is the money ballification of our world. Okay.
2:13:14
>> What happened is things are boring now because we've gotten smart. >> Yes.
2:13:17
>> And it's they've gotten good at pricing risk and all that sort of stuff.
2:13:19
But the problem is then you end up getting Spider-Man 74 Lord of the Rings 7 rather than some new show and that's just the state of our world.
2:13:30
>> The funny thing is that the late I feel that I feel the stagnation >> we're also the internet will strike back >> and also and also the latest Spider-Man made a billion dollars.
2:13:39
So, so like the the irony is like I feel the same uh you know of Marvel fatigue that everyone does and yet the latest Spider-Man was a fantastic >> but but here here's a counter example >> Nathan Nathan Fielder >> like is on an incredible run >> uh and I feel like that is a set of new ideas and and forms of content right, where that that are like that are meaningfully novel that are rooted in this like talent.
2:14:14
So I would almost argue there's not a shortage like anybody can make media now.
2:14:21
It's cheaper than it's ever been production and distribution.
2:14:28
And like as much as you can argue like all the capital is flowing into these like big bets Spider-Man 12. >> Mhm.
2:14:37
>> At the same time for talented people it's like the best time in the world to do anything. >> I agree.
2:14:43
and and and in and in some ways like Nathan Fielder is like >> the best modern instantiation of like being yourself in Hollywood >> and like finding that mix of commercial appeal and and new ideas where like for me I'm more excited to see the new Elizabeth Holmes movie than any I'm if you if I could only watch like the Odyssey or the new Nathan.
2:15:10
>> Did you see the Odyssey? >> Yeah. Yeah, I did. >> What did you think?
2:15:12
>> I thought it was a good movie. It was a good movie. Have you seen it? >> Yeah, I liked it. It was good. It was a lot.
2:15:17
I don't think it's like a rewatch it every year like The Dark Knight.
2:15:20
>> Yeah, >> that was my take.
2:15:22
>> So, I got to see at the Chinese theater, which if you >> Yeah, we went there.
2:15:24
We saw >> Amazing place to watch a movie. Holy cow.
2:15:27
>> No, >> you don't like it. >> Absolutely not.
2:15:29
I I came out of that and I was like, you got to be kidding me, guys.
2:15:33
How do we end up How do we end up >> Universal is you're much closer to the screen >> and I same same size iMac screen, but you're closer.
2:15:40
>> No, but but you you have to walk out of the theater. The theater was fine.
2:15:42
I I thought it was I I didn't appre I didn't personally like that it was grungy and and dirty feeling, but that was >> I did feel like on my way, >> but the second that you get out of it, you're it's like, you know, you're watching this beautiful film work of art and then you come out and it's like the worst place on earth, you know, Sunset Boulevard. >> Oh, rough.
2:16:06
>> It's like completely completely brutal.
2:16:08
>> Hollywood is so seedy.
2:16:08
That's been my biggest takeaway being here. what is going on?
2:16:13
>> Kind of always has been.
2:16:13
That's like they >> I didn't realize that. Yeah. It's crazy, right?
2:16:17
Cuz you're just like, "Wow, it's my dream to go to Hollywood."
2:16:18
And then you get here, you're like, "This what it's like."
2:16:21
>> I'd like to go to West Hollywood instead.
2:16:22
I'd like to go to Beverly Hills. Uh what's on your wrist? >> Oh, good question.
2:16:27
I just went to the Lucas Museum of Narrative Art. >> Yeah.
2:16:32
>> Uh so this museum opens uh September 22nd. Okay.
2:16:35
>> Uh so it's just kind of like these >> previews. >> Preview tours. Dude, so good. Oh my goodness. >> What's good about it?
2:16:43
>> Okay, so the reason is that not is the whole project not like a massive white pill that we can still make.
2:16:48
>> Honestly, it is such a massive white pill.
2:16:50
The only thing that bums me out is San Francisco and Chicago said no. But then LA got it. So >> let's go.
2:16:56
>> Well, is that not victory for Were they saying no?
2:16:59
Like this needs to be in LA.
2:17:01
This this got it would just be wrong for us to >> to take this >> or they were just like yeah, the idea is kind of mid.
2:17:07
Like it would suck to have a billion dollar museum.
2:17:11
>> It's like 4,000 pieces of art in George Lucas's collection.
2:17:15
13,000 at the ex or at the museum.
2:17:18
Only six of them on loan. >> Yeah.
2:17:21
>> And so I thought that what I was going to walk into was like Star Wars.
2:17:23
That's actually not what it is.
2:17:27
>> Ready to dress up as Chewbacca.
2:17:28
>> So this is what the narrative art museum gets, which is modern art.
2:17:31
Most of what you see kind of stinks cuz it's super abstract and you're like, what is going on?
2:17:36
This is the best non-cononical collection of modern art museum I've seen.
2:17:42
And what I mean by that is I think the MoMA has a better collection.
2:17:44
But at the MoMA, you see the canon pieces of modern art.
2:17:48
You see everything from Van Go Star Night to, you know, cubism to then stuff that comes out of World War II. This is very different.
2:17:55
This is a lot of paintings that I did not know.
2:17:59
And almost every painting feels like a freeze frame in a movie >> and you almost feel like somebody stopped it.
2:18:05
So the lighting is super dramatic.
2:18:06
There's like these dramatic scenes.
2:18:08
Then there's a whole range of styles.
2:18:10
And then the other thing for people like Norman Rockwell, >> it's must be one of the largest collections of Norman Rockwell paintings of all. >> That's great. >> Yeah. >> Love it.
2:18:20
>> And then also the way that they organize the museum is super different.
2:18:23
So usually it's all around jargon or time period. This is different.
2:18:26
This is around family, school, like friendship, stuff like that or specific artists.
2:18:31
So because of that, it doesn't feel like heady as a museum.
2:18:36
It feels like the kind of art that'll be both good and super mass market. >> That's cool.
2:18:42
>> Almost like Star Wars itself.
2:18:44
>> Is there at least one Chewbacca?
2:18:46
>> Do you see any Star Wars?
2:18:47
>> I only saw So this is why I have this.
2:18:47
I just went and I went up to the front desk and I was like, "This is so good.
2:18:53
>> Can I leave, go on TV, and then come back?"
2:18:56
And she was like, "Fine, we'll make an exception."
2:18:58
Okay, >> so we're booking it back to downtown Chewbacca for you and I will send you I will send you a selfie.
2:19:03
I will send you one Chewbacca selfie. >> I want that.
2:19:06
I I I see this modern art. I love Star Wars.
2:19:08
Um, what do you think of uh Mark Zuckerberg's new castle?
2:19:10
You know, the critique is that tech wealth is not going into beautiful things, >> which is true.
2:19:18
>> And he just bought a beautiful castle in Ireland.
2:19:21
And it feels like the beginning, you know, I think the Stripe founders bought a castle in Ireland.
2:19:26
There's there's the seeds.
2:19:26
And I think that there I I understand the critique of tech wealth is not going into beautiful things.
2:19:32
We're not getting the museum, the libraries.
2:19:33
But I think that there is a world where >> wait until they're 45, they'll buy the castles, they'll get sick of them at 65, the kids won't want to live there, and then there'll be museums and libraries because that's what happens when you renovate an 18th century castle.
2:19:48
You stop wanting to pay the $5 million a year to maintain it.
2:19:54
The Museum of Zucky's Bunky is gonna go is gonna go so hard. >> Okay.
2:20:02
>> All these what what will then be antique firearms that are like Halo style.
2:20:08
>> And you're really he really had that on.
2:20:10
He really had that in 2026.
2:20:14
>> He had he had the the the good supply of of >> If he has a needler and we don't know about it, that's a that's a major issue.
2:20:22
It's interesting those two examples.
2:20:24
Both of them bought existing places.
2:20:26
They did not >> they didn't Okay, so building's important.
2:20:28
>> They did not build them.
2:20:28
Uh like you look at Hurst Castle, you know, William Randph Hurst.
2:20:32
I'm actually stay I love the story of Hurst Castle and I and I both aspire to personally embark on such a crusade that I die with it unfinished like he did.
2:20:45
And also I encourage other people to take on projects that are so unwieldly that they will ultimately never be uh never see the fruits of their labor and only the next generation will. >> Yeah.
2:20:56
I mean beyond that, you know, it's really easy to talk about castles and palaces and stuff like that.
2:20:59
What about just like the tech initiative to make the panhandle like one of the most beautiful parks in America? You know what I mean?
2:21:06
Or like let's restore Filmore Street.
2:21:07
I heard of a project that's exactly that.
2:21:09
It's like four or five blocks of Filillmore.
2:21:10
Like we I think that the beauty conversation is way too much about these giant big buildings.
2:21:17
>> You got to start small. Corgi cafe. >> Corgi.
2:21:21
>> The they're starting with the cafe. You scale that up. Corgi library. Corgi museum. Corgi Central Park. >> We'll save the world. >> Could happen. You never know. They're a reinsurer now.
2:21:30
>> Well, this was what's so great about New York.
2:21:31
Like I think it was uh is John Paulson the investor? >> I think so.
2:21:35
>> Who made a lot of money in the uh financial crisis? >> He's the one. Yeah, exactly. One guy.
2:21:40
But he donated $100 million to Central Park. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> It's cool. >> That's good. Okay.
2:21:46
>> The simple stuff for the people. >> Yeah.
2:21:48
What What about on the overall uh architectural malaise and just this, you know, I is there a linkage from uh housing prices, we can't build anything, stagnation and the critiques from you and the cultural tutor on >> Oh, that's interesting.
2:22:07
you just so I think that the way that people see it is something like this. >> Mhm.
2:22:13
>> We can't build and because of that we need to make it cheaper and uglier >> and it's like a cost problem.
2:22:19
Actually, there's a new article in works in progress that basically makes this point that one of the reasons why it's hard to build is that things aren't beautiful enough. Yeah.
2:22:28
>> So like if I look at >> Yeah.
2:22:29
why go through the hassle? >> Yeah.
2:22:31
And and and and also for the neighbors, they're like, I don't want something new being built.
2:22:34
It's going to be butt ugly.
2:22:35
It's going to make my neighborhood less less nice.
2:22:36
Yeah, it's going to be a square box.
2:22:39
>> And so it's this weird kind of compounding loop where things are ugly, so then there's more regulation, then there's more regulation, so it's more expensive.
2:22:45
Then we need to save money, so things get ugly.
2:22:46
And maybe there's a way to reverse that where you have nice buildings and people are excited about building a little bit more, and you begin to change that.
2:22:56
>> Yeah, I've been there's some there's there's things coming down the pipeline.
2:23:00
I I I was hanging out with a friend of a friend who's a an architect based in Europe.
2:23:06
And he was just showing me like all the stuff that he has in the works.
2:23:09
And to me, I got incredibly excited cuz I was like, every single one of these things, you know, he's a rising star.
2:23:14
Every single one of these things will end up being in every mood board.
2:23:17
Like they are like net new creations that have inspired by the past, but also just new ways for buildings to exist.
2:23:26
And I have another friend who uh does does real estate uh development in the American Southwest and he is showing me things that he's actively building right now.
2:23:39
And I'm like that entryway to the home is going to be iconic.
2:23:43
And so a lot of these are like >> I still in some ways I think you're going to see >> like the world is so Instagram driven now that there are beautiful things being built purely for the feed to basically like stop people and to get attention.
2:24:00
And uh I think that uh I'm excited to see what you're pulling up. Um >> Oh, you got it.
2:24:07
I'm trying to get them to pull it up.
2:24:10
>> I got to show you this. >> Yes.
2:24:11
So, I think that the side byside format will change the world. It already is.
2:24:17
And all the sidebyside format is super common on Twitter, super common on Instagram.
2:24:21
All it is is you show one old thing versus one new thing and you just say, "What happened?"
2:24:26
Y >> and this is one of those formats that we've all seen that no one has taken seriously. Yeah.
2:24:31
>> So, this is uh Oh, hold on.
2:24:31
Okay, we got to cut that for the clip.
2:24:37
>> Well, we're going to pull it up the big board, too. Old Home Alone House. >> Here you go.
2:24:41
>> There we got both of them. >> Old Home Alone House. >> Scroll. Scroll up. >> Scroll up. Here. >> This is 1990. >> 1990.
2:24:46
This is the old Home Alone House that we all love. Iconic. Okay.
2:24:50
>> Wallpaper, carpets on the stairs, >> lots of texture, lots of warmth. >> Yep. >> What happened? >> Now, scroll down.
2:24:57
This is what they did to it. >> Stunning. Stunning and brave. >> Okay.
2:25:05
So the white the the the the different shades of white and gray. >> It's so much white. >> It's so much white.
2:25:11
So this >> I mean look at the rug.
2:25:13
I mean who who who would be bold enough?
2:25:17
>> Well, so here is what happened.
2:25:17
So >> there's a few things that changed.
2:25:19
One is that housing went from something that people would build for themselves to something that was done by real estate agents or and and and real estate companies. Mhm.
2:25:29
>> And so housing became a market that you thought of as something liquid and then you basically need to increase the how generic something is so that it basically is a more liquid asset. Right. >> Makes sense.
2:25:41
>> And then the other thing is a lot of these projects are built by people who won't live in them. >> Yeah.
2:25:46
>> And so they sort of see the world through a spreadsheet. A spreadsheet.
2:25:49
That's exactly what it's called a spreadsheet.
2:25:52
It's called a spreadsheet.
2:25:54
So they see the world through a spreadsheet. And uh >> Yes.
2:25:57
But I when I look at this, I think buying opportunity, buy this and and remodel it to look like the home house.
2:26:05
It can't be that hard to put carpet down on the staircase, right? Uh I like this style.
2:26:09
I think it's called preodern.
2:26:11
This is generally the the like what what this is referred to now. >> Yeah. Yeah.
2:26:15
You're saying something that's very real.
2:26:16
I a friend of mine um bought a place years ago, invested a bunch of money into it, and and I think like legitimately for 99% of people made it way worse.
2:26:27
Like for him, >> I know what you're talking about.
2:26:29
>> Like for for him for him, he's like he's like, "Yeah, like it's too much character."
2:26:33
A little too much character there, buddy.
2:26:36
Like some some of the rooms I'm just like, "This is horrific."
2:26:39
and and you need and it actually even though he invested a lot of money into the property, you actually have to deduct that basically an equal amount from the new purchase price which is going to be lower than what they paid
2:26:51
because you have to rip all this >> but you look you like blue, you made your house blue, >> but I do think that I I think that m like maximalism is 100% coming back and and you're you're seeing this in um >> you think that loud
2:27:07
>> like even look look at car look at cars Like cars are a wonderful way to express yourself and just enjoy the road and it's this like symbol of freedom and all these things and cars got very boring to the point where if somebody was like
2:27:22
spicing it up they're like I got a green car >> and a tan seats and then it's like well now there's a whole for years there's been Instagram accounts dedicated to this combination which I think is beautiful. I have a green car with brown
2:27:33
I have a green car with brown seats, but it's almost to the point where it's no longer even a way to express yourself.
2:27:39
It's just like it's as basic to me as like a black car, right?
2:27:45
Um, and so I've been I've been intentionally going the other direction.
2:27:48
I'm I'm >> What's the next color you're going with?
2:27:51
>> I I'm I'm in the process of specking a car that is is like a rose metallic and and it's like completely insane.
2:27:56
And I've shown it to some people and they're like, "Oh man, that >> we need, you know, like it's going to be it's going to be >> a car that looks like a NASCAR that you guys can drive around with all the sponsor logos.
2:28:07
That would actually play TVPN over there >> right there."
2:28:11
Um, >> and and I and I think that you're not just naturally seeing a shift.
2:28:15
People are rejecting minimalism.
2:28:16
And I I actually already as much as as much as this is happening again, I don't think you're going to ever get back to spec like the speck house is naturally designed to appeal to it's like I view a spec house like the one you're showing here basically as like a canvas on which someone else can come on and paint and allows you to have that liquid.
2:28:37
>> The thing is I'm not pro maximalism or anti-minimalism.
2:28:40
I'm just pro quality and anti crap.
2:28:43
And I think that what has happened is we're like, "Okay, here's minimalism."
2:28:48
And we're like, "Okay, minimalism is cool."
2:28:49
Like Johnny really understands minimalism.
2:28:52
Well, the Japanese really understand minimalism.
2:28:55
Well, >> but then what happens? >> I got a house.
2:28:57
I got a house to I got a house to sell you.
2:29:00
>> If you don't really understand the form, you end up with that meme of the guy who just has his mattress in the room and nothing else with like the little video game.
2:29:07
You're like, >> "Yeah, the ultimate male living situation." I love it.
2:29:12
>> Hey, you know, you got to invest in that guy.
2:29:14
Would you like the glass or the cup for whatever you're drinking?
2:29:16
Wash these sheets in 6 months.
2:29:20
>> Do you know the um >> What'd you got, Jordy?
2:29:22
>> Do you know the the architect uh John Lner? >> No.
2:29:27
>> Oh, you're talking place in Alaska.
2:29:29
>> You You blew the punch line. I'm sorry.
2:29:32
>> You blew the punch line.
2:29:32
But um but yeah, the uh John Lner's the protege of of Frank Lidd Wright. Okay.
2:29:38
has created some of the most to me the most beautiful homes uh uh in in the US.
2:29:46
There's >> there's even like this weird uh sort of like roadside motel out in in Palm Desert area that you can go stay in that's a that's a lot.
2:29:54
I I recommend you check it out.
2:29:56
I think you would enjoy it.
2:29:57
Um but I track John Lner homes that are for sale and there's two right now that stand out.
2:30:02
One is in Pasadena, which is like seemingly like an extremely at the time it would have just been like I'll take one home, please.
2:30:12
You know, it's like a two-bedroom, two bath, >> but then there's this other one that's that's only 1. 37 million.
2:30:19
Potentially a great starter home candidate.
2:30:20
And uh this one in Alaska, >> one issue, it's in Alaska. >> That's not an issue.
2:30:26
That's And so this is 2 acres.
2:30:28
You got a John Lner, an architecturally significant home in nature.
2:30:34
And I think you got to I think you got to go for it.
2:30:36
I think you got to like, you know, take some of your own medicine here.
2:30:39
And I want I I think you need to >> No, no, no. This is this is red. >> This is for sale. >> This is for sale. >> 1. 3.
2:30:49
>> I've been extremely tempted just because I'm like, >> yeah, >> let's start a group chat. See if we can pull 1. 3 for a bunky, too. >> Yeah. Yeah. It's Bunky Village.
2:31:00
>> This would be good for like a TBPN >> satellite. Look at this.
2:31:03
Look at this wood wood panled interior.
2:31:05
It's like every material in this home was actually designed to last for >> There's room for the Christmas tree there.
2:31:14
>> Indoor >> waterfallish thing. >> It's awesome.
2:31:18
Um, so anyways, what what I'm hoping to see is the the young John John Lner that just build a couple just dedicate your life to building a couple hundred homes like this.
2:31:32
But I but I think that the truth is that that we look back and we look throughout history and we see >> home we we see things that were built like this and we're and people are like we you know we got to return to like that era of design.
2:31:45
But the truth is that for every one of these homes, there was a hundred a thousand that were just >> cookie cutter.
2:31:52
>> The thing is, I don't want to return to any era of design.
2:31:54
I want us in 2026 to have a sweet era that like reflects who we are, what we value that like projects a bold vision for the future that's like, let's go.
2:32:03
And we should have all these awesome visions of what tomorrow can look like.
2:32:07
And what I love about homes and making streets is like that is a way for every single human being to like put their footprint their you know their stamp of optimism and like promise for a better future into the world >> and uh that's why I think this is important. >> Yeah.
2:32:24
Uh we have about 10 minutes.
2:32:28
>> No, I want to go through the rest of the show and tell what else do you have for us in the stack.
2:32:32
The team has the PDF you shared.
2:32:34
Are there any other images that you'd like to share with us?
2:32:37
>> By by the way, we definitely don't >> We do.
2:32:39
We're we're we're rearranging the schedule and Fletcher Richmond from Type will be joining us at 150 after Jim O'Reilly from Charleston AI.
2:32:49
>> Have you seen uh the new Obama library? >> I have. Yes. Obama.
2:32:52
People are going back and forth about it. >> Yeah.
2:32:56
Let's get it up on the screen here. >> I'm a fan. You're a fan. >> You're a fan.
2:32:59
>> Because Because it's a because it's clearly a data source. Data center. data for aliens. It has source inside.
2:33:08
>> I'm I'm generally in fa I I love uh >> brutalism just period.
2:33:12
I think it's beautiful when contrasted right with with nature.
2:33:17
Here's the thing with brutalism.
2:33:19
Good brutalism rocks, but a good style >> is works when average people do it.
2:33:24
And so the problem with brutalism is the variance is so big.
2:33:28
Like most brutalism absolutely is awful and tyrannical, but like you're saying, you get some Brazilian brutalism, some DC brutalism, and when it works, it is absolutely awesome. >> Yeah.
2:33:39
>> Every time I think brutalism, I go to a bad Osama bin Laden's count compound.
2:33:44
You know what I'm talking about?
2:33:44
The Osama bin Laden house looked is very brutalist.
2:33:48
I lived in a house that looked exactly like for a while. >> It was crazy.
2:33:53
You were you just would you do pra would you practice in there in case you got the call? >> No. No. Keep it in counter.
2:34:01
>> So the new Obama library this is where uh this was built in 1893 and so the Obama library this was for the Chicago World's Fair.
2:34:10
There's three photos here.
2:34:12
>> And these were in 1893. >> Which Yeah.
2:34:15
>> And uh basically these were temporary houses.
2:34:19
>> So they were made out of plaster.
2:34:19
They were not made to last.
2:34:22
>> The center one was a temporary house. the Chicago winners.
2:34:23
It was for the World's Fair.
2:34:25
So, like it was a big deal. Don't get me wrong.
2:34:28
>> Um, but I think it says so much about who we are.
2:34:30
Like, first of all, I'm not sure that we could build this now.
2:34:34
>> And there's no way that we would do something temporary >> like this now. >> Yeah. Okay. Uh, yeah.
2:34:38
What what what else is going on?
2:34:42
How how many other photos do you have here?
2:34:45
>> We don't need to go through all of them.
2:34:46
>> Oh, I want to I want to know the story of the uh >> Well, so what we did the uh Yeah.
2:34:48
So, I think this another >> actually here's one that has a personal story.
2:34:55
So, this is uh San Francisco when I was a kid.
2:34:58
I don't know if you guys have walked here.
2:35:00
>> When I was a kid, >> this is uh >> beautiful photo >> where I would walk and I used to like marvel at these chains. >> Yeah.
2:35:07
>> I think these chains are sick.
2:35:09
>> And also like this is the kind of world I want to be in where like you know it's by the bay there's always the big cargo ships coming by. Yeah.
2:35:15
And I'd always used to, you know, check out these chains.
2:35:19
My mom would say, "If you touch those, you're going to get tetanus." You know, whatever.
2:35:22
And uh, you know, it's time to replace the chains, which is fine.
2:35:26
And they replace them with this.
2:35:30
>> And like, this is the thing, you know, each one of these is not a big deal, but if you have 10 or 100,000 decisions like this in a country and a culture, you really stamp out the soul and vitality, the spirit of who we are.
2:35:42
And that's what I want to fight against, you know. >> Yeah. Yeah. It's rough.
2:35:46
What's going on in the world?
2:35:50
>> What's What's wrong with stainless steel?
2:35:52
>> Is that Well, it just lacks character.
2:35:57
>> Well, I think it's cuz it's new. >> Yeah.
2:35:59
What happens when that gets patina and starts giving you tetanas?
2:36:00
Will you be satisfied then?
2:36:03
>> Will you be satisfied then?
2:36:03
I think we could have done wrist.
2:36:07
>> We could have done something with like little Golden Gate bridges in it, like something that >> to tie to the aesthetic of the space. Louis Vuitton monogram.
2:36:15
>> Yeah, we talk about cost.
2:36:15
There's an artist somewhere that would happily do this at cost >> to make something up.
2:36:22
>> You know, >> might be a safety thing.
2:36:22
You trip over the chain, but you don't do this.
2:36:24
But again, yeah, you're getting into >> the rword regulation.
2:36:29
>> I think they want to keep people from surfing.
2:36:32
>> They don't want you to discover the thrill.
2:36:36
>> No, they want you to walk in and continue building your startup because, as we know, if you go surfing, you'll be less productive.
2:36:41
So, you got to stop people from surfing in San Francisco.
2:36:44
They got to get the share price up.
2:36:46
>> Uh, Patagonia founder, his book is called Let My People Go Surfing. Oh, really?
2:36:50
>> That's like the whole premise.
2:36:50
They're like, "Ah, we're going to build a company after we get to a billion trillion market cap." >> Well, >> yeah.
2:36:59
Patagonia would have been the the first trillion dollar company. >> It could have been.
2:37:02
It could have been if they little less surfing. Got lock in, by the way. >> Yeah.
2:37:06
And then we got the same thing happen in logos. >> Yeah.
2:37:10
just see it's the same pattern everywhere.
2:37:11
And this is what's >> this has to change soon though. >> This is insane.
2:37:14
>> This is an opportunity.
2:37:14
You have to imagine that there are plenty of brands that see this.
2:37:18
I don't want to be a part of the meme.
2:37:20
I'm going to go a different direction.
2:37:23
>> The reason why I'm just utterly astonished by this and think about it every day is I think that aesthetics people think of like little icing on the cake.
2:37:31
You know, like you put on a tie, now you'll look good or something like that.
2:37:34
that. But the thing is like uh society's aesthetics represent the the spirit of a time like it's the outer reflection of the inner spirit of an age and all this is how we see who we are what we value and the thing is when I look at these
2:37:49
designer logos you know it's easy to say oh there's no style there really what you see is a culture that values efficiency andformity conformity above all else and I just >> I don't want that to be who we are and also kind of global sameness. Like I
2:38:03
Like I want a world where there's like radical diversity.
2:38:07
You go to different places, they feel completely different and that the things that are made have the unique character of the people making them.
2:38:17
That's the world I want to live in.
2:38:18
That's the world that inspires me. >> Mhm.
2:38:19
How do you get into a museum if it's closed?
2:38:23
>> There's actually a hack for this. >> Tell me. >> Okay.
2:38:25
So, if you go to Paris or something, >> spend a decade developing a personal brandation.
2:38:34
spent a decade building a reputation of someone who cherishes >> get millions and millions of views on YouTube simple hack.
2:38:41
>> So there is a hack for this.
2:38:41
So if you go to Paris, I was in Paris like a month and a half ago.
2:38:45
>> Buy a flight to Paris.
2:38:46
>> Any any city, any city, New York, LA, Chicago, >> any city, >> and you show up often they'll say, "Hey, you can't get into the museum.
2:38:53
You needed tickets in advance."
2:38:56
>> A ticket at most museums costs like $30.
2:38:59
So if you're going with a friend, it's like $60.
2:39:00
And you'll say, "Can I get in?"
2:39:02
There's they'll be like, "There's no way."
2:39:03
You'll say, "Can members get in today?"
2:39:05
They'll be like, "No problem."
2:39:07
You say, "How much is a membership?" >> $120.
2:39:09
So, if you just pay $60 more, $30 per person, you can basically get into any museum in the world. No lines.
2:39:16
>> Your answer is just pay. >> Just pay for it.
2:39:19
>> It's one simple trick. >> Here's the thing.
2:39:20
It's just about the membership, which is not advertised.
2:39:24
>> No, that's a good point. Good.
2:39:24
But the the new L the new Lucas >> going to be some like go in the back door, walk, you know, like dress up like >> a new Lucas Museum is also I don't think if you're a me they're not I'll take if I walk up there and say I'll take one membership please.
2:39:39
They'll be like come back when we're open. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You got to get a job. >> That's the real hack.
2:39:46
>> You got to get the job.
2:39:47
>> Got to get the job there. Or build a great brand. build a great crier.
2:39:52
>> I feel like my first you can do anything moment was sneaking down at warrior games.
2:39:55
I had season tickets to convince my dad to get season tickets as a kid.
2:39:59
>> We're all the way up on the third deck.
2:40:01
>> Again, you paid to get in trick to sneak in. Buy season tickets.
2:40:05
>> We got the cheapest tickets.
2:40:05
I sat I sat outside of the first deck for six games.
2:40:11
Went to every game for the season.
2:40:11
I just snuck through turn around. That was a good one.
2:40:17
>> Got really good at getting the free pizzas and the t-shirts.
2:40:18
I knew like where the t-shirts were like most likely to go.
2:40:23
>> Thunder coming out of the t-shirt gun or no? >> Yeah. >> Okay.
2:40:27
>> Actually, my my my my ultimate hack >> for sports was when I was a kid, I was obsessed with catching baseballs at games.
2:40:34
>> So, you know, you can get the baseballs off the bat. >> Yeah.
2:40:36
But what I would do is I'd go to the stadium.
2:40:38
I'd get the away team hat, the away team shirt, >> then sit by the opposing team dugout.
2:40:46
>> Less to Wrigley Field, Darren Oliver, starting pitcher.
2:40:49
I knew the name of Darren Oliver, the bullpen catcher, walked away with six baseballs. >> Six baseball.
2:40:55
>> I was like a fifth grade kid.
2:40:55
I was like, >> that's fantastic. I love it.
2:40:58
Well, thank you so much for coming on the show. >> All right, boys. Thank you. Great to see you. Have fun at the museum. >> Great to see you. Chewbacca picture.
2:41:07
Today I will tell everyone about Cisco critical infrastructure for the AI era.
2:41:13
Unlock seamless realtime experiences and new value with Cisco.
2:41:16
And I'll also tell you about the New York Stock Exchange.
2:41:21
Want to change the world?
2:41:21
Raise capital at the New York Stock Exchange.
2:41:26
>> Up next, we have Jim Riley from Charleston AI.
2:41:28
You've seen him on the internet.
2:41:30
We've discussed him multiple times with his partnership with Sam Blondes Monaco and now we are pleased to be joined by Jim Riley from Charleston AI. Jim, how are you doing? >> Welcome to the show.
2:41:42
>> I'm I'm doing real really well. Thank you. Thank you very much.
2:41:44
Appreciate it >> for taking the time to come chat with us.
2:41:48
I would love to know a little bit of the backstory.
2:41:50
I'm sure a lot of people have seen the viral video, but uh what what is your career story?
2:41:55
How did you get into this particular business?
2:41:57
And then of course we can talk about where it's going from here. >> Okay.
2:42:02
Well, um I've been doing different things for many many years.
2:42:06
You know, the only boss I ever had was my father other than when I was a a bus boy and worked in a movie theater. >> Wow.
2:42:15
>> So, it was a family business I grew up in and uh I did many things. >> Yeah.
2:42:19
>> And uh >> where do I go from there recently? Uh during the pandemic? >> Yeah.
2:42:26
What what got you what got you in at least interested in AI? >> Yeah. >> Okay.
2:42:30
Well, my partner, we started this produce delivery business during the uh uh pandemic because the farmers couldn't sell produce.
2:42:37
There were no farmers markets and people were kind of locked down. So, we saw a need.
2:42:41
We saw something that we could do together. And he's the geek. I'm not.
2:42:47
And um so we put together, you know, delivering produce directly to people's houses.
2:42:53
We put it right on on their um you know front porch by their door.
2:42:57
Our model is that we deliver it.
2:43:00
They don't come pick it up.
2:43:01
We deliver 7 days a week uh 365 days a year.
2:43:07
>> And so then he's >> Yeah.
2:43:08
Did this business grow out of that? >> Yes.
2:43:12
Well, we're partners in Rainbow Packaging and he's always been into uh AI, you know, he was a an engineer from IBM.
2:43:21
So he's, like I said, he's a geek >> and um this is one of his like pet projects. He's really into AI.
2:43:27
So he got he infected me a little bit with it. >> Okay.
2:43:32
>> And uh we saw the opportunity. We thought it was time.
2:43:33
Let's open a up a storefront.
2:43:36
That's what we have here is basically a storefront even though it's a nice office. >> Yeah.
2:43:41
>> To just introduce people to AI, help them where they need it.
2:43:44
And that's what we've been doing. We started January 1st. >> Amazing, Jordan.
2:43:48
So, January 1st, what what who were the who were your first like customers, clients that were coming in when when when we originally saw the viral video, you know, uh it uh it made so much sense to me to actually put something like a storefront because everyone in Charleston is, I'm sure, reading about AI, watching videos online.
2:44:10
Some of them are excited, some of them are scared.
2:44:12
And to give people the opportunity to come in and >> Yeah.
2:44:16
to give people the opportunity to come in and just talk to somebody who's actually in their local community and learn about it actually makes a ton of sense. >> Yeah. >> Right.
2:44:25
In the beginning, it was slow.
2:44:25
I have to admit it's taken a while, but what I've come to realize this is the FUD period, which is fear, uncertainty, and doubt when it comes to AI.
2:44:33
And uh people are gradually getting over it.
2:44:36
So my partner, he he can do the elaborate stuff.
2:44:41
He can do the uh you know systems integration.
2:44:44
I'm the one that can talk to people and tell them how it's benefiting me >> and that's what I do.
2:44:51
>> Do you see more people coming in with sort of a consumer lens on they want to know how to use AI products in their personal lives or is it mostly other businesses in the Charles?
2:45:03
>> It's a combination of both. >> Okay. >> Okay.
2:45:06
So, like I'm pretty good at talking to people and I'm asking using AI.
2:45:09
So, you know, I don't want to plug it, but my favorite is uh Open AI work right now. >> It's fantastic.
2:45:17
Uh so, I'll tell people about my little experiences, how I spend saved time by using it. And they said, "Really?"
2:45:25
So, I'll say, "Here, load chat GPT."
2:45:29
>> You know, play with it for a week or two and I'll come back and I'll show you how it can benefit you.
2:45:33
And mostly, you know, they're small business owners, so it's easy for them to um, you know, adapt to it.
2:45:39
I mean, a lot of people would like to do it in my opinion, but they don't have time and they're so used to doing what they do that this is just not natural to them. >> Yeah. Totally.
2:45:51
>> And then the other side of the coin, the people that have larger size businesses who are really into AI, so they spend two or three days or two or three hours a day doing it and then they realize they're falling behind on their work. >> Mhm.
2:46:02
And so that that's why they need us to come in and help them, you know, put it together and make it work for them.
2:46:09
>> What is your business model?
2:46:09
Do you charge people hourly for training sessions or do you work on affiliate commission if you refer someone to a particular product?
2:46:20
>> No, we're just we we're like vendor neutral.
2:46:24
We we'll work with any anybody's AI.
2:46:26
you know, my partner will learn it >> and he'll install it and um it our customers choose the AI they want. >> Sure.
2:46:35
>> And we just help them make it work.
2:46:37
>> So training, implementation, >> correct?
2:46:40
And you know, we charge the first visit's free. Yeah.
2:46:43
>> We're not, you know, you come in, sit down, let's talk about it, see what you want, what you need, >> and you know, we'll come up with a plan for them.
2:46:52
>> Do you think the model will be scalable?
2:46:54
Do you think you'll be able to hire technicians and educators in other markets and set up similar franchises? >> Absolutely. Yes. >> That's exciting.
2:47:04
>> I think it has appeal.
2:47:05
>> The time is, you know, the time is now.
2:47:07
We have a few years >> and uh AI is changing so drastically, so quickly in my opinion, >> you know, and um people can use it.
2:47:15
And the other thing I noticed like with individuals >> Mhm.
2:47:20
We take this uh open AI work which I refer to it as >> uh I I went away on vacation for a few days and um I'd get up at 5.
2:47:27
I normally get up at 4:00 so I slept in late >> and then for two hours I would do my work. >> Yeah.
2:47:37
>> Found in five days I did more than I would do in 6 months previous. So that sold me. >> Yeah.
2:47:44
>> You know, so I have an agent that works for me every day.
2:47:46
And if I don't have her working on something, then that's my fault.
2:47:51
That's my, you know, my bad.
2:47:53
>> And uh >> it's just I I find it fabulous. I think it's tremendous.
2:47:57
And then with that, too, that I I noticed personally is that I'd be uptight with I got to do this, I got to do that. Um I'm short on time. I'm thinking about it.
2:48:08
But now with this AI companion, my she does it and I'm free to think about other things during the course of the day. Yeah, >> I'm freed up.
2:48:16
And I think a lot of people once they adapt it and start using it, they're going to be the same way.
2:48:21
They won't be so uptight and so uh, you know, bothered with what they think they have to do cuz it's already done. >> Mhm.
2:48:28
>> Or it's being worked on. >> Mhm.
2:48:30
>> Mhm. What's uh what's business been like since the the video that broke the internet >> which was >> a lot of attention people stopping by you know Sunday you know I work seven days a week so Sunday and we're still continuing our produce business so you
2:48:46
know we have customs there we got to satisfy so I come in early pack pick pack go deliver then I start working you know contacting people responding to emails and you know people stop by randomly we're in Charleston and we're going back to Florida we're Charleston. We're going back to Charlotte.
2:49:00
We're going back to Charlotte. >> Well, come on in.
2:49:02
Let me give you a little tour. Let me talk to you.
2:49:03
Tell me about your story. What is it? >> That's great.
2:49:07
>> I I like to talk to people myself. >> Yeah.
2:49:10
>> What are the most common concerns that people cite when they're talking to you?
2:49:15
What What are they worried about?
2:49:15
What are they nervous about in terms of AI? >> Mostly unknown fears. >> Sure.
2:49:22
you know, and they, you know, they they read something, they hear something that somebody said, and they're not they're not real.
2:49:29
So, until they get to know it, hold it, see it, and use it, they'll have that.
2:49:35
But, I'm trying to break that barrier down, you know, and kind of infect them with the, you know, the benefits of it. >> Yeah, that's good.
2:49:44
>> How much do you wish you had today's AI when you were starting your career and your family business? >> Uh, I can't do that. It's not realistic. >> I like this. Super grounded. Grounded. >> So grounded.
2:49:58
>> I mean, because I have it, I wouldn't be here now talking to you. >> You'd be retired.
2:50:03
>> You know, I had I had to experience everything I experienced to get to this moment. >> Yeah.
2:50:07
>> All my mistakes, all my, you know, my failures, my victories, things I did right, things I did wrong.
2:50:12
But, you know, I needed all to do all that.
2:50:14
And I know I could save a lot of time and be more efficient by using my agent in the morning.
2:50:22
>> Yeah, that's >> my AI agent. >> Yeah.
2:50:25
>> Uh when's when's the second location opening up?
2:50:27
How how aggressive do you guys want to get around expansion or are you still kind of dialing in the the curriculum?
2:50:34
>> Well, everything has to be done it proper time and place.
2:50:35
Um this has to be up and running, functioning, and then we can devote a little time to the next one.
2:50:42
>> I I believe there's going to be demand for it.
2:50:44
But I believe there is demand for it. >> Mhm. >> Awesome.
2:50:48
>> And now that it's arriving at the point where AI is being more accepted by people and being used, they're still confused and AI is changing so much with all these different applications they have.
2:51:01
They're going to need some help.
2:51:02
So, uh, I want to get a firm foundation and then we talk about expanding. >> Yeah.
2:51:07
Do you do you pay much attention to the to the conversation around AI fear and doom and safety that's happening, you know, primarily in in San Francisco, or do you kind of ignore all that mumbo jumbo?
2:51:20
>> No, it's noise in my opinion.
2:51:22
>> Yeah, >> I'm looking at the benefit.
2:51:24
If I spend an hour, two hours, and it takes care of six or seven hours worth of work, I I don't have to worry about that.
2:51:31
I'm not I can enjoy life.
2:51:33
if I could spend more time in the moment than wor having my head filled with things that are not going to happen that may happen. But now it's done. So next >> Yeah.
2:51:44
No, it's a good good mindset. >> Great mindset.
2:51:47
>> Well, congratulations.
2:52:00
>> Yeah, this has been amazing.
2:52:00
Come on the show anytime. Let that some sort.
2:52:01
We'd love to we'd love to support and hopefully we can we can stop by the store at some point. >> Please do. You're always welcome. >> Thank you so much.
2:52:10
>> And Charleston is a nice city to visit.
2:52:13
>> Yeah, >> I've heard >> the restaurant people are friendly. >> I love it. >> I can see that.
2:52:16
It's great to meet you, Jim.
2:52:18
Thanks so much for coming on and congrats on all the success.
2:52:20
>> Have a great rest of your week. >> Thank you so much. I really appreciate it. Have a wonderful day. We'll talk to you soon. Cheers. Goodbye.
2:52:26
>> Let me tell you about Crowd Strike. Your business is AI.
2:52:29
They're building AI workspace. Welcome. >> What's going on? >> Sorry for the mix up.
2:53:03
>> We got caught up with David Pell.
2:53:03
He brought whole show and tell for us.
2:53:05
We had to go through with it, but we have >> then we had to of course talk with with Jim Riley who I would already suggest you should pursue some type of partnership with.
2:53:16
>> Anyways, uh introduce yourself and the company.
2:53:20
>> Yeah, nice to meet you guys. Thanks for having me.
2:53:21
Um, funny enough, I actually go to the same gym as David, so that's the small world moment of the day. Yeah, >> nice. >> That's great.
2:53:28
>> Um, >> who who lifts heavier yet?
2:53:28
But >> I can't disclose that.
2:53:32
>> Oh, that's that's I got a bomb for sure.
2:53:36
>> Anyway, tell us about the business. What are you building?
2:53:40
>> Yeah, so type is a you mentioned it shared workspace for teams to build with AI.
2:53:44
A lot of work right now in AI is still happening. Very single player mode.
2:53:47
people are working with cla or chatbt on their individual computer and that's not really how businesses work.
2:53:53
Uh and so we make it really easy to take that work starting in claude or in chatbt and push it up into a shared workspace where you're all actually building together.
2:54:01
Crazy as it seems multiplayer AI still isn't really solved. >> Yeah.
2:54:05
Are you trying to narrow in on a particular type of work, whether it's uh code that's generated, the Blender 3D models that we saw, spreadsheets, like there are collaborative environments that are point solutions for each of these to some degree.
2:54:21
GitHub sort of collaborates with code, but how how do you see finding a uh a beach head or or is it important to be sort of uh omniresent across the organization? Yeah.
2:54:35
So, we're focusing more on non-technical teams.
2:54:37
We think that the engineering teams have a lot of this pretty figured out.
2:54:40
Like you mentioned, they've been doing these workflows for a very long time.
2:54:43
But the nontechnical teams that are suddenly all now writing code that weren't used to be writing code, they don't know what GitHub is.
2:54:51
They don't know how to deploy to Versell.
2:54:52
They don't know how to do a lot of this stuff.
2:54:53
And so, we've just given them these magical agents that can do it all, but they need tooling to actually make that work.
2:55:00
Uh, what are you targeting in terms of early adopter?
2:55:04
Do you want to go into new companies that don't have anything to rip out, faster moving startups for early adoption, or are you going to go duke it out in the Fortune 500 and try and get someone to, you know, either add this on to all the other tools they're paying for or maybe rip something out? >> Yeah.
2:55:23
So, what we found at the very beginning, you got a couple people. You can just use cloud. It's not a big deal.
2:55:29
So that's not really a pain.
2:55:29
Um, we've been targeting I'd say more in the 25 to couple hundred employee range has been our sweet spot so far.
2:55:35
I know you know a lot about this space.
2:55:38
Interestingly the direct to consumer ecom space.
2:55:40
Those teams have just been loving it.
2:55:42
It is I think one of the best use cases for agents.
2:55:47
If you kind of think about the business and what it is, it's a series of pretty structured inputs.
2:55:53
>> Hey, I have this landing page. I run these ads.
2:55:55
I have this Amazon listing. It runs this stuff.
2:55:57
And then that comes out, I need to order more inventory cuz this ad is doing really well and the whole loop just kind of runs.
2:56:03
And so agents are it's crazy what you can do in some of these ecom businesses. >> Totally. Yeah. Yeah.
2:56:09
I mean, we talked to Sean Frank at the Ridge and Yeah.
2:56:12
every every ecom business is like, "Okay, there's the churn spreadsheet and there's the there's the script for conversion and there's something that synthesizes all of our performance marketing and then we have all of our influencer ads over here and how much we're spending and and the opportunity to bring it all together is huge."
2:56:27
Uh, Jordy, >> when did you when did you actually start the company?
2:56:31
>> We started a year ago.
2:56:31
So, we were just obsessed with this multiplayer AI concept.
2:56:36
I've been, crazily enough, it's weird to say now, but spending about a decade building in that space of kind of collaboration and chat. >> Yeah, >> exactly.
2:56:45
And I uh built a company before this that was acquired by Slack or sorry that Slack was an investor in it was acquired by Atlassian. Okay.
2:56:53
>> Um OpenAI was a was a user of it was called Help.
2:56:55
So, I've been thinking about how do people collaborate in this in this chat environment for a really long time and this just felt like the next generation of tools was necessary because we've got these agents now and it's just a totally different way to work. >> Very cool.
2:57:09
Give us the funding news.
2:57:10
>> Tell us about the news. Yeah.
2:57:11
>> How much did you raise?
2:57:13
>> Yeah, we raised 4 million bucks.
2:57:13
Uh New York here in New York City >> and uh Hay Stack as well out of the West Coast.
2:57:22
And uh my buddy's Matchick.
2:57:22
I'm from Colorado, so Colorado firm in there as well. >> Love those guys. >> Very cool.
2:57:29
Well, we're going to we'll we'll get the team on it. Give it a spin.
2:57:33
>> Yeah, you guys should play around. I think you'd like it. >> That'd be awesome. >> Awesome. Have a great rest.
2:57:37
>> Yeah, great to meet you.
2:57:37
And uh we'll see you in the next round. >> See you. >> Nice to meet you. >> Goodbye.
2:57:42
>> Let me tell you about Shopify.
2:57:42
Speaking of DTOC e-commerce, Shopify is the commerce platform that grows with your business, let you sell in seconds online, in store, on mobile, on social, on marketplaces, and now with AI agents.
2:57:54
Uh, Jordy, do we have time to tell the story of of the of the heist? The thieves.
2:58:00
They raided the absolutely museum.
2:58:05
>> We'll see you tomorrow. >> See you tomorrow. >> It's been an honor. >> A privilege. >> Little teaser.
2:58:11
>> I mean, today this is this is TBPN at it best. >> Yeah.
2:58:16
>> In my in my opinion, you got Jim Jim O'Reilly. >> Jim O'Reilly.
2:58:19
Mikey got the hot AI rounds coming in. got everything.
2:58:25
>> Little bit everything.
2:58:26
>> Living the dream here. >> Yeah.
2:58:27
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2:58:39
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2:58:46
It will be 105 days until >> King in the castle. King in the castle. >> Goodbye. >> What?