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4:33
Hello, ladies and gentlemen.
4:33
This is Tim Ferriss, and welcome to another episode of The Tim Ferriss Show.
4:38
I am so giddy, so excited about this episode.
4:42
And it is one in a series of close to 300 episodes now where each time around, I try to deconstruct a world-class performer and share with you the stories, the habits, routines, beliefs, negotiating skills, in this particular case, that you can test and apply in your own lives.
5:04
These are the skill sets that help each of these interviewees become the best at what they do.
5:10
And our guest today is none other than the one and only Sir Richard Branson, @richardbranson in pretty much everything.
5:19
He's uh Richard Branson on Twitter, Richard Branson on Facebook, RBranson on LinkedIn.
5:29
And if you don't know who he is, Richard Branson is the founder and chairman of the Virgin Group.
5:33
He is a world-famous entrepreneur, adventurer, activist, and certainly business icon.
5:39
He's launched a dozen billion-dollar businesses and hundreds of other companies.
5:46
The origins are crazy, the later stories are even crazier, and his new autobiography, Finding My Virginity.
5:51
And I have a I have a long history with Richard's books, which we get into in this episode.
6:01
But his new autobio, Finding My Virginity, shares the candid details of a lifetime of triumphs and failures, both of which have been very spectacular, and provides an intimate look at his quest to push boundaries, break rules, and seek new frontiers.
6:17
This episode was recorded as he was bouncing around the globe, and primarily in Marrakech, or Marrakech, depending on how you want to pronounce it, Morocco.
6:28
So, the music you hear in the background is due to that.
6:33
We worked very hard to get this scheduled.
6:36
I loved this conversation.
6:39
I've heard a lot of conversations with Richard before, including in person.
6:40
I think this one really delivers the goods.
6:46
We covered a lot and got into a lot of details, talked about many things I'd never heard him talk about before, including his thoughts on clean meat.
6:54
If you don't know what that means, we'll get into it.
6:58
Blockchain, cryptocurrency, how he's coped with dyslexia, and how his parents helped make him resilient, the behind-the-scenes stories of deal making, PR stunts, big wins, and in some cases, big losses, the habits and life decisions he's used to maintain high energy
7:17
levels for decades now, how he capture limits downside risk, even though he's perceived as a risk taker, how and why he takes, say, regular 1-2 month, sometimes longer, breaks from alcohol, favorite books, lessons learned from Nelson Mandela, and many others, and much, much more. We cover a ton. I was really nervous We cover a ton.
7:35
I was really nervous about this episode for a host of reasons, and could not be happier with how it turned out.
7:44
So, I hope you enjoy it as much as I enjoyed it and definitely find Finding My Virginity at all fine bookstores. You can check it out.
7:55
I'm certainly going to be digging in myself and without further ado, please enjoy my extremely wide-ranging conversation with Sir Richard Branson.
8:09
Richard, welcome to the show. Thank you very much.
8:11
It's nice to talk to you.
8:11
I have been looking forward to this conversation for more than 20 years. All right.
8:20
Well, that's a that's that's a lot to live up to.
8:25
It is a lot to live up to.
8:27
Anyway, congrat- congratulations on all you've you've achieved as well, so. Thank you. No, I appreciate it.
8:31
We've we've bumped into each other here and then different points around the world, but I've always wanted to sit down and very selfishly ask you a lot of questions ever since I bought your first autobiography, Losing My Virginity, and have carried it with me since college through starting all of my businesses since.
8:51
I thought we could just begin, I suppose, with current events.
8:56
I've been following you around the planet to have this conversation, which I'm thrilled that we're able to have because you've gone through some pretty extenuating circumstances recently.
9:06
Could you describe for us I saw your Instagram post, for instance, about retreating into the wine cellar under your home or the main building, I suppose it was, on Necker Island.
9:19
Uh where are you right now and could you describe what that experience was like?
9:24
It's a strange thing to say, but I I've had privilege of being through four hurricanes before this one.
9:31
And about one every 10 10 years in the the And you know, a force one, force two hurricane by and large is magnificent.
9:41
It's you know, it's dramatic.
9:41
The sea the sea froths, the the trees bend, the you know, incredible lightning storms.
9:49
And and it's one of the sort of marvels of life.
9:51
And you know, yes, there's damage.
9:53
You know, trees come down and but generally speaking, you know, the the damage is you know, you could you can overcome that damage.
10:02
This hurricane was altogether different.
10:04
And I mean, the you you've got sort of force five, category force five hurricane is the highest it goes.
10:10
The hurricane that was coming to hit us was actually category seven.
10:12
They they didn't even have it in the books.
10:16
You know, I was definitely going to stay on island cuz we had 60 members of our staff on island.
10:20
But I knew that it it would be foolish to be, you know, up in the main house, you know, watching nature at its worst.
10:27
We had to get into a very, very, very secure area.
10:33
And so, the moment it started hitting, we went down into a sort of concrete bunker at the bottom of the house.
10:39
And for 5 hours, I mean, it screamed.
10:41
I mean, it was you know, the whole concrete bunker shuddered.
10:45
And you know, there there were you know, young girls as well as the guys, there were a couple of children in the bunker.
10:51
There were there were a number of tears.
10:55
Water was pouring through.
10:58
But I don't think any of us feared for our lives.
11:00
We knew that we were in a in a strong area.
11:02
Um we we felt for 600 flamingos on the lake.
11:06
We we we felt for the lemurs that that were still outside.
11:12
We we felt for the people of the rest of the Caribbean and the British Virgin Islands who lived in, you know, wooden shacks and and buildings that were were nothing as strong strong.
11:23
And then equally, suddenly it stopped.
11:26
I mean, it was suddenly there was a complete hush outside.
11:29
And we waited 15 minutes and we couldn't work out whether this be the end of the storm Uh or whether we were in the eye of the storm and we we stuck our head out of the door and I just looked at complete utter devastation.
11:40
It was as if a hurricane had hit hit the island.
11:45
Um and you know, I I don't often cry over possessions or you know, you know, being damaged but yeah, definitely um I think all of us had tears in our eyes.
11:57
Within 5 minutes, the other side of the storm hit and we threw ourselves back in to the hurricane shelter and we huddled there for another 4 or 5 hours and when we finally came out, we we surveyed the damage and you know, on our own island, it was pretty devastating to say the least.
12:15
Within 24 hours, we'd we'd started going around the the um uh the rest of the British Virgin Islands and I mean, 90% of homes were destroyed or nearly destroyed.
12:26
Uh incredible uh that um more more life wasn't lost and and incredible the resilience of the uh Caribbean people.
12:35
I've heard stories you know, that they told, you know, like you know, one one person told me of you know, the house disappearing above their head with their children, their grandchildren in it, uh running to the neighbor's house, that then disappeared.
12:48
that then disappeared. You know, running to a wall, uh the wall started collapsing uh and they ended up all the whole family in a cesspit up to their uh knees in and and but they survived it and uh you know, there's a 13 it was a 13-year-old girl who within 3 days was uh set up a a makeshift school uh outside teaching kids younger than her and um so anyway, very resilient people
13:17
and and you know, the last couple of last month I've just spent trying to work out ways of seeing whether the whole of the Caribbean but the whole of the British Virgin Islands, um, can come back better and stronger and, um, uh, and, you know, cleaner and, you know, see if we can get some positive things to come out of what's obviously been, um, you know, been, um, a sad event. So, I'd love to dig into
13:39
So, I'd love to dig into your, I suppose we could call it familiarity with uh, what some people would look at as near-death experiences.
13:49
I The This is from a New Yorker profile, but you hold records and the writer observed you might also hold the record for the number of highly publicized near-death experiences.
14:01
So, you This was This was a sometime ago.
14:03
I mean, this is 10 years ago, 2007, but pulled from the sea five times by helicopters, once from a frozen lake during one of your attempts to circle the globe, crashed into the Algerian desert, the Chinese Air Force threatened to shoot one of your balloons out of the sky at one point, and it goes It goes on and on.
14:18
When you are in circumstances like that, and you mentioned you had a lot of staff uh, down in the in the basement with you.
14:27
What did you say to those people if there were people there who were very, very worried or perhaps panicking in some in some sense?
14:34
What did you say or what did you do in those circumstances?
14:37
Uh, I think hu- humor is important, you know, putting on a brave putting on a brave face, you know, crack- you know, cracking cracking jokes, um, plenty of hugs.
14:49
I mean, I think uh, um, hugs are important.
14:51
You know, but I think, you know, like when we were all down all down in the bunker, um, I mean, just to try to reassure them that, you know, that we we that that they that even 200 mph winds were not going to uh, bring us sort of concrete, you know, concrete bunker down.
15:05
You know, with with some of my other some of the other adventures where we were, you know, in in a in a, um, uh, capsule up in the, um, you know, fly- flying, you know, flying, um, around the world.
15:18
And when things went wrong, you know, there were just two of us generally and you you know, both of you have got to try to keep the spirits of the other the other person up and if you're going to survive, the only way you're going to survive is uh by keeping focused, by you know, staying positive, even if you are facing almost certain death.
15:40
I mean, it's but you know, you're you're you're definitely you're definitely going to die unless you uh stay focused and stay positive and and fight to the bitter end.
15:47
Um and you know, there have been circumstances where you know, on paper we had a well over 90% chance of uh not coming home and um and I think by staying focused, by staying positive and and with you know, a a a big dose of good fortune, um we made it all the way back.
16:08
So, if we rewind the clock, then I mean, these are some of the exploits that you're known for, but if we rewind the clock back to childhood, I'd read that one of your headmaster's had observed or he'd said to you actually, I predict you will either end up in prison or a millionaire.
16:25
I don't know if that's true.
16:27
This is You have to be careful what you read on the internet.
16:29
But if that is true, what what do you think this headmaster saw in you or observed in you at such a young age that would that would lead to such a statement? Uh it it is true.
16:43
Uh it was his passing words to me as I left left school age age age um uh just just turning 16 and you know, I think that you know, I was first of all I was I am dyslexic. I was dyslexic.
16:55
So, conventional um schooling definitely passed me by and I was somebody that uh you know, felt very strongly about some of the issues in the world.
17:08
The biggest issue in the world at that time was a very unjust war, the Vietnamese War.
17:13
I mean, most wars are very unjust, but but this was, you know, yet another very very unjust war.
17:23
Uh and I, like many young people, was was determined to try to campaign very hard um to stop the war.
17:28
And and I thought maybe the best way of doing it was to launch a magazine for young people that um could be distributed not just among schools, but universities as well, which would be a a campaigning magazine, and it would give young people the voice that they didn't have.
17:46
You know, I I started planning this magazine at school and working out of the school phone box, trying to sell advertising, and you know, ringing up James Baldwin or Jean-Paul Sartre or or, you know, Vanessa Redgrave or any anybody I felt who, you know, Tariq Ali and uh Daniel Cohn-Bendit from from Germany, anybody I felt that, you know, could that could contribute to a magazine a campaigning magazine like this, um and getting them to contribute.
18:14
And then I and surprisingly, you know, managed to get enough advertising to cover the printing and the paper costs of the of the first issue.
18:25
Um so, when the headmaster called me in and said, you know, you you either must stay at school and stop doing this magazine idea of yours and just concentrate on your school work, or uh you're going to have to leave school to run your magazine.
18:40
Uh it was an easy decision for me and and uh I and I I'm grateful to the headmaster for for being uh such a foolish headmaster.
18:49
I mean, obviously, it would have been much better if if I if I if I could if I could have if I could have done both, and I think it would have been good for the school, but um and I met him a few years later, and you know, and um uh you know, he he was he was very gracious and um you know, congratulated us on our success and so on, but but I think, you know, I did end up in prison for a night um a few years later.
19:09
Um and I definitely uh, and that was before I'd become a millionaire.
19:15
So, so I think, um, you know, I remember the headmaster's words and I remember how unpleasant being in prison for a night is, um, and saying to myself, you know, I will never ever ever do anything that warrants me going to prison again.
19:28
So, it was a it was is I think everybody should spend a spend a night in prison.
19:34
Uh, so he so he actually got it he actually got it right on on both both counts.
19:39
What did you do that led or what happened that led to that night in prison?
19:45
What happened was, um, that uh, whilst we had the magazine, we started in the magazine a little mail order company for uh, people who wanted to buy music and we called this mail order company Virgin Records.
19:59
Nobody had sold music cheaply before.
20:02
So, we we, you know, we discounted it by 10 to uh, 10 to 30% off and um, and we sold music that we loved.
20:10
So, you know, Frank Zappa, Captain Beefheart, rock, you know, it was rock and roll music rather than uh, the the sort of Andy Williams and the mixture of, you know, rubbish that, you know, other rubbish that was out there.
20:20
And um, and so you know, the public loved it it, you know, it resonated with young people.
20:29
Um, and and it it we had good taste and we were aiming at at kids with good taste.
20:34
And, um, and then one day, um, somebody ordered some, um, records from Belgium, uh, from us.
20:40
A big, you know, a big group a big large, you know, amount of records from Belgium and so we, you know, we got a lorry and we we we drove across the, um, drove down to Dover Dover and across to France.
20:52
And when we got to France, they said, um, "Where you taking Where you selling these records?"
20:59
And we said, "In in Belgium."
21:00
And they said, "Well, you're not allowed to come through France and sell them in Belgium without a carnet, which means that you're not going to leave them in France.
21:10
Um so you're going to have to go back to England and as we were driving back to England, we realized that we had all these pieces of paper signed that said that we'd exported them and now if we could sell them in England, we wouldn't have to pay the 35% tax.
21:26
So foolishly, we sold them in England and you know what we didn't realize was that there were other bigger retail chains doing something very similar in a much more professional way and there was a you know a group of customs and excise people who uh were investigating this um this idea and anyway, so uh we got busted and uh fortunately didn't get a criminal record cuz you know they they said you're going
21:48
to you can you can pay the fine off over 3 years and as long as you pay the fine off, you won't get a criminal record and um and actually it's spurred on the opening of you know, we had to open 30 or 40 record stores in order to pay off Richard's fine and keep myself out of prison and uh so uh very good very grateful to to customs and excise for giving us that incentive. What did your
22:10
What did your parents say to you at that time when you got in trouble and ended up in jail?
22:15
And And how old were you at at the time if you could place us?
22:20
I was 19 years old, so still a teenager, still just about allowed to be naughty.
22:27
I remember I was at in in Dover Magistrates Court and the judge said he wanted you know, 10,000 pounds bail and and I said, "You look, there's no way I can afford 10,000 pounds bail."
22:40
And so he said, "Well, you know, I'm I'm sorry but you'll have to go to prison and wait and wait and await the trial then."
22:45
And my mother stood up and said, "Well, what what what what about if I pledge the family home?
22:49
Um would you would would that would that be all right?"
22:53
And the judge was good enough to, you know, say that that would be fine if you pledged the family house.
22:58
You you that would be fine.
22:58
So then gave my mother a very, very big hug.
23:03
Uh and many, many years later, I mean, you know, right, right, you know, 50 years later nearly, you know, we're now working very hard in America to try to um uh help people who can't afford bail get bail.
23:16
And um you know, there's this awful situation in the States, for instance, where, you know, where if you've got money, or if you've got a house to pledge, you don't go to prison for 6 months waiting awaiting your trial.
23:26
But if you're if you're poor, often black, uh in you know, um you end up languishing in prison for a few months while waiting for your trial, even although you can be completely innocent.
23:37
So, uh so so ob- obviously lots of personal experiences come back and and and uh have influenced my life later on.
23:45
Well, I I'd like to talk about influence.
23:48
You mentioned your mother, and in preparing for this conversation, I I took a a closer look at your mom, and I have to say, what I was going to do is not mention the last name and read this description, but your so your mom also wrote a book called Mom's the Word, The High-Flying Adventures of Eve Branson.
24:07
I just have to read a few lines here to give people some context.
24:12
A classically trained ballet dancer, she appeared in racy West End productions, disguised herself as a boy to take glider lessons, enlisted in the Women's Royal Navy Service, and then embarked on a series of harrowing adventures as a star girl air hostess on the ill-fated British South American Airways. And it goes on and on.
24:30
This seems to potentially explain a lot.
24:32
Uh and I was I was curious to know uh specifically when you were a kid struggling with dyslexia, and I'm not sure if it was even properly diagnosed at the time, but how did your your mom uh respond to that?
24:50
What did she tell you when you were having trouble with school, or having trouble reading?
24:53
How How did your parents or your mother help you navigate that?
24:57
What What was the experience like?
24:59
Yeah, first of all, I'm lucky.
25:01
I mean, I I have a very extraordinary mother and a lovely brother and we're very, very close-knit family and that's fortunately continued with myself, my wife, and and children and so on ever since.
25:12
So, uh so, that's given us a fantastic foundation as as as a family.
25:17
When I was young, the word dyslexia, I don't think existed.
25:22
I don't think the word entrepreneur existed either.
25:24
Uh except maybe in the French dictionary.
25:26
And so, they you know, so it was just assumed that I was thick and you know, they they just got used to you know, these dreadful marks that came back on on you know, my math paper or my English paper and so on.
25:40
Um and um I and and I think that made it that much easier when I actually said, you know, that I want to leave school um you know, age 15.
25:50
Uh I think although that my dad walked me around the garden you know, three times instead of just once.
25:57
Um you know, by the end of the walk um I remember him saying, you know, look, at least you know what you want to do.
26:02
At 15, I didn't know what I wanted to do when I was 22.
26:06
It I I respect you for for that and go give it a go and if it doesn't work out, we'll try to help you get an edge you know, a formal education again.
26:15
You know, my mother, you know, she you know, her whole approach in bringing up her children was one where she would she would have been arrested today.
26:23
In those days, she could get away with it.
26:25
So, you know, you know, at age four or five, she would you know, shut me out of the car, you know, two or three miles from grandmother's house and tell me to make my own way there.
26:34
She would you know, put me on a bicycle age seven or eight and tell me to ride you know, 300 miles in the pouring rain again to grandmother's house.
26:43
And her attitude was, you know, if we survived, you know, we'd be the stronger for it.
26:47
She wouldn't allow us to watch television for instance.
26:50
We had to get out there and do things.
26:52
And uh and you know, so she'd push us out of out of the house and you know, tell us come back in the evening and you know, and you know, get out there, go and climb trees, rescue cats, you know, and I'll see you see you tonight.
27:05
So, you know, we lived in the countryside and you know, it was a it you know, it was a it was a fun a fun upbringing and but a very loving upbringing.
27:16
I mean, it may not sound like it.
27:18
She wasn't actually trying to kill us. She did love us as well. Yeah.
27:25
What what would she say to you one for instance it's raining out, you're in the car?
27:31
Would she give you any warning and what would she say to you if it would if it was raining and she wanted you to get out and and ride a bike home in the pouring rain?
27:40
Was there any any kind of lead up any less any lesson that she would impart before that?
27:44
I'm just thinking I don't have any kids myself, but I think about parenting a lot.
27:49
What what can you replay for us just one of those scenes so we we know how it was presented to you?
27:55
I think the getting out of the pushing us out of the car was most likely I was most likely having a little debate with my younger sister and and and say it wasn't really you know, this is this is going to be a life lesson.
28:07
It was more and you know, shoving it shoving shoving the brakes on, pushing us out of the car, slamming the door and then driving off.
28:17
Um so, yeah, we we as I say, we did survive and I mean, I I remember distinctly when I was five on that that very occasion walking across the field and I'm I was young enough to decide I wanted to get my own back on her and um uh and I saw a farmhouse and I walked very slowly towards the farmhouse.
28:37
Um so, I wasn't too worried cuz I I could see the lights of the farmhouse, but I was damned if I was going to do it quickly cuz I I thought she's she's going to have she's going to have to suffer this time and she did suffer and and and and I don't think she has readily push me out of the car.
28:57
Um but anyway, no, it's fine.
28:57
I mean I just you know, my mom's 90 94 now and I'm just I just saw her a few minutes ago and she she will never stop.
29:05
I mean she's got an idea a minute and you know, we've always had to run to keep up with her and uh you know, put the two of us together it's a dangerous dangerous combination.
29:20
So I I think that many people have the impression of you as a fly by the seat of the pants entrepreneur who throws caution to the wind and bets the farm on many many things and uh what I'd love to talk about is maybe the the alternative to that or the complement to that.
29:43
We don't have to do either or which is risk mitigation because the the more I look at what you've done in many cases, not all cases, but in many cases you seem like a master at mitigating risk and capping the downside.
29:58
So I I was hoping maybe you could talk about I believe it was uh I think you were on route if you could clarify for me to BVI and there was a flight canceled in Puerto Rico, but how you actually ended up in the uh airline business uh because I I I find it such an illustrative and helpful story if you wouldn't mind telling people a little bit about the origins.
30:23
Well, uh I was in my 20s.
30:25
Um I'd been away from my girlfriend for 3 weeks.
30:29
I was uh coming back to see her that night.
30:32
I was um in Puerto Rico about 6:00 in the evening.
30:38
I was heading to the Virgin Islands and um American Airlines announced that they were going to move the flight the next morning because they didn't have enough passengers.
30:48
And I was damned if I was going to wait to the next morning.
30:50
My pretty girlfriend hadn't seen me for 3 weeks, and I hadn't seen her for 3 weeks, so I was determined to get there that night.
30:56
So, I went to the back of the airport hoping that my credit card wouldn't bounce. I I rented a plane.
31:05
I borrowed a blackboard, and as a joke, I wrote Virgin Airlines one-way $29 or $39 to the uh British Virgin Islands.
31:13
And I went out amongst all the people who'd been bumped, and I filled up my first plane.
31:17
And as we arrived in the BVI you know, about 8:00 or 9:00 that night, one of the passengers you know, tapped me on the shoulder and said um "You know, sharpen up the service a bit, Richard, and you could be in the airline business."
31:32
And um So, um So, that it got me thinking, you know, airlines do bump people.
31:37
Uh you know, most airlines, you know, uh don't look after people.
31:41
You know, that the staff generally don't smile. The food was dreadful.
31:46
I mean, um So, the next morning I was on Necker Island, and and I rang up Boeing, and I asked to talk to the sales department.
31:55
Uh and a wonderful man who I got to know know very well over the years called R. J.
31:59
Wilson answered the phone.
31:59
And um the call went roughly like this.
32:03
I said um you know, my name is Richard Branson, and um I'm interested in buying a second-hand 747. And R. J.
32:08
Wilson said, "Well, you know, would you mind telling me you know, what you do?"
32:14
I said, "I'm in the record business.
32:16
I've got the Rolling Stones.
32:17
I've got the Sex Pistols.
32:17
I've got Janet Jackson, and you know, lots of wonderful artists."
32:22
And I could sort of feel that he was you know, like um feeling that I was slightly wasting his time, and um But, he said um "And you're you're based in England?"
32:31
I said, "I I well, our company's are based in England."
32:33
And so, he carried on talking, but and and subsequently I learned that he carried on talking because they were so fed up with British Airways always legging legging it over them because they had no competition.
32:44
They thought in the back of his head in his mind he was thinking maybe that you know by having a competitor to British Airways they'd be able to have a bit more leverage.
32:51
So so he said um Look, I'll tell you what I'll I'll come and see you.
32:58
You know, we do happen to have one second-hand 747.
32:59
But with the name like Virgin um I really feel you should change the name with the name like Virgin people would think you're not going to go the whole way.
33:06
Um I I I um I I said, "Well, I'll I'll I'll I thank you for your advice and I'll I'll think I'll think about that."
33:15
So I then you know talked to my fellow record company team and and they went into complete panic mode.
33:24
I mean, you know, what is is Richard doing thinking of taking us into the airline business?
33:30
And we have the most successful independent record label in the world.
33:34
We've you know, we we we we we just signed the Rolling Stones.
33:36
We've got you know, we we everything's going from strength to strength.
33:39
Um and um you know, he's putting everything he's going to put everything at risk by going to the airline business.
33:44
And so what I said to them was, "Look, I promise that you know, I'll I'll I'll only go into the airline business on one condition and that is if I can persuade Boeing to let me hand the plane back at the end of the first year.
33:58
I It's protect the downside.
33:58
So I knew that the worst that could happen would be you know, maybe 6 months of the profits of Virgin Records we would lose if it didn't work out."
34:08
And um Boeing agreed to it.
34:08
And you know, when the end of the first year came instead of handing the plane back people loved Virgin Atlantic and you know, we had a you know, you know, people flocked to it and we had a spirit about it which is very different from British Airways.
34:22
We ended up buying a couple more second second-hand 747s from Boeing and uh and then you know, over the years since we bought uh some hundreds of planes from you know, uh for about three or four different airlines we set up over the years from Boeing.
34:37
So RJ Wilson certainly deserves some a pat on the back at going I think.
34:44
So how did you convince RJ to agree to allow you to return the plane if things didn't work out?
34:51
What was the what was the pitch or what was the what was the approach?
34:55
approach? Well, we liked each other which which I think is always important in in any negotiation and you know he admitted that you know one of the reasons they wanted to see us in business was to you know to enable them
35:08
to have a little bit of competition with British Airways and you know I think you know I you know I think we we showed him that we managed to build a a very successful global record company and you know unlike other people I mean you know I
35:22
argued that being an you know being in entertainment actually you know that's important in the airline business that that most airline owners just um uh just you know see airlines as a as a way of transporting people from A to B and but
35:39
actually entertaining people is is important and if people are locked in a tin can for eight or nine hours or or 12 hours they they want to be entertained and that you know that I felt we could bring our entertainment skills to that. You know when British
35:51
You know when British Airways heard that we were going to go into the business they they dismissively said Lord King famously said too young to fly too old to rock and roll.
36:00
Um uh and followed up by saying you know what on earth is somebody from the entertainment business going into the airline business for.
36:09
But of course that's just what British Airways didn't realize was they were not you know they they were dumping a bit a lump of chicken on somebody's lap.
36:17
They were uh showing you know maybe one film if people were lucky on the screen to children to grannies to business people you know there was no choice.
36:26
There was you know they had cabin crew who weren't given the tools to do a good job and therefore they never smiled and and so it went on.
36:36
And so you know exactly what the airline industry needed was an airline that could entertain people.
36:45
You know so we when we launched Virgin Atlantic with our one plane you know we had stand up bars.
36:49
We had you know we had cabin crew who were absolutely delighted delighted them and you know love what they were doing. We had humor.
36:58
I mean we we showed the film Airplane on the first flight.
37:02
You know when in the cockpit we had um you know we we told our passengers that they were going to see the the the pilots and you know the screen came on and there was the backs of the heads of the pilots and you know it became it became it became apparent they had quite long hair and and then you know two famous cricketers turned around and handed each other a split.
37:23
They were the front pilots and then I took the split.
37:27
I was the pilot just behind them and and there was definitely hush in the plane and I just as we took off and and and and and then I I stood up so they could see I wasn't actually in the cockpit and and we we pre pre pre recorded that the day before and and the whole plane the whole plane just fell about laughing and you know the journey the journey over the more champagne was drunk I think than on any any flight before or after and
37:55
you know the pilot you know he would you know he got into the sense of humor so you know he'd be flying along and he would let he would have the plane slightly leaning to the right and um and then he would ask all the passengers on the right hand side of the plane sorry look there's just too many people partying on the right would some of you move over to the left please and then he would swing the plane a bit to the left. Anyway
38:18
Anyway it was And it was a laugh a the whole way.
38:20
But for anybody who's thinking, "My god, I would never fly on this man's airline."
38:25
You know, we we got I got the chief technical officer of British Caledonian to actually run our airline.
38:31
You know, obviously safety is paramount if you're running an airline, and 35 years later, you know, we had many airlines and we've you know, and it's been they've all been wonderfully run, but that doesn't preclude you entertaining people.
38:44
That doesn't preclude humor.
38:45
That doesn't preclude, you know, we're always trying to be cutting edge.
38:49
Um you know, what whether it's seat back videos with you know, we we we pushed the industry to invent a seat back video, and we were five before British Airways with seat back videos giving people a choice.
38:59
And um you know, so we we love trying to you know, cut through and do do things um differently and you know, from from others.
39:09
And and I think that's why you know, Virgin Atlantic has survived and airlines have done well.
39:13
I mean, when you know, when I when we set up with one plane, we were competing with TWA, with Pan Am, with Air Florida, with Laker Airways, with with People Express, and so on.
39:26
Uh with hundred all of these most of these airlines with hundreds of planes, and we had one plane.
39:30
And the the graveyard of airlines was massive.
39:33
I mean, like people who tried to get into the airline business and failed.
39:37
And over the next three or four years, pretty well all these airlines, including a lot of others, like Air Europe, Dan-Air, all went bankrupt.
39:44
You know, and somehow this little um uh David versus these Goliaths survived.
39:53
You know, because you know, because we offered a better product.
39:55
And and British Airways did not like it.
39:57
I mean, they they were absolutely determined to um drive us out of business.
40:02
And and as they had driven out business a lot of these other airlines.
40:07
And um they launched something called the dirty tricks campaign.
40:11
I mean, it wasn't publicly known as the dirty tricks campaign in the early days cuz nobody knew what was going on.
40:18
Um but they yeah, they set up behind closed doors a group of people who illegally tapped our computer information and they would ring our passengers.
40:28
They would pretend, for instance, to be from Virgin and they would say, "Very sorry, your flight has been delayed, but we can move you onto a British Airways flight."
40:36
Or and people going into the nightclubs that we owned in London, uh we had a big gay nightclub called Heaven and they would rustle through the uh rustle through the uh the bins outside and try to find needles or anything that that would um uh look like maybe drugs were being taken in the club and then they would, you know, leak the stories to the News of the World um Rupert Murdoch's papers and uh try to damage us that way.
41:00
Or they would have people going through my own rubbish bins, uh which they got caught doing.
41:07
caught doing. Uh and um journalists' rubbish bins that you know, that that that we maybe um had talked to or uh and they would try to spread stories about our finances and um and in the end we decided to take them to court and it
41:21
was Christmas time and um we won the biggest libel damages in history against British Airways and and we distributed it to all our staff equally and um because it was Christmas time, it became known as the British Airways Christmas bonus. Uh and and and and and and I think our
41:36
Uh and and and and and and I think our our staff staff are hoping that British Airways will get up to their tricks again, but I mean I mean, you know, that that helped.
41:45
Uh it helped anyway keep them keep them on a slightly more honest as the time went on.
41:49
How did you identify the dirty tricks campaign?
41:52
How did How did it become discovered?
41:54
It was generally speaking British Airways staff that came to us.
42:01
I mean, particularly one one particular individual who actually worked in the a lot behind the locked doors tapping our computer information uh who felt very uncomfortable about it.
42:10
You know, and and others I mean, you know, for instance, they were they were they had a teams of people in New York who were going up to our passengers that got out of their limousines to board a Virgin plane again saying, "I'm sorry that the Virgin plane has been delayed or has a problem.
42:28
But we I've been sent here by Virgin to take you over to British Airways."
42:31
And some of our passengers managed to rumble them on this one and and and let us know.
42:35
So, you know, so it was a combination of different things.
42:40
I mean, there was one person was just caught red-handed.
42:43
Uh going going through the rubbish bins.
42:45
Uh yeah, so we were lucky lucky to get it exposed.
42:47
I mean, you know, one of the sad outcomes of this was uh they were they were they they were also dumping capacity on on the few routes that we had.
42:57
Um and that's the that's the normal trick of a you know, big airlines against small airlines.
43:04
They can afford to lose money on a few routes to drive a competitor out of business.
43:07
And then they'll jack the prices up once that is out of business.
43:12
You know, and it was beginning to cost us a lot.
43:14
So, um so I had to make a a difficult decision.
43:17
We had the you know, the most successful independent record label in the world by then.
43:24
And um you know, I knew that the only way of being completely sure of keeping the airline going and saving all the jobs of the record company was to sell one of the other.
43:34
Now, that the airline we could never sell.
43:36
So, we talked to Thorn EMI.
43:39
And um and they bought they bought the record company.
43:42
And you know, it was a billion dollars.
43:44
Um so, you know, it should have been a happy day.
43:48
But actually, it was one of the saddest days of my life cuz you know, selling a company is selling your soul.
43:52
Um we built this company up from scratch.
43:57
Uh it's been tremendous fun building Virgin Records.
43:59
But you know, we now had the firepower to be sure that the the staff of the record company's jobs were secure, but you know, under under different ownership and and the airline was secure and with that billion dollars we knew that British Airways would have to think twice before, you know, they might most likely would realize that we were we were here to stay.
44:21
Thank you for that explanation and context because it gives me a number of jumping off points.
44:28
The first being I suppose opportunity and and risk assessment.
44:33
So, you strike me as a really good negotiator by by necessity you'd have to be.
44:38
If you had say a would-be entrepreneur or a university senior, someone who's about to graduate and go into the real world and you wanted they tell you that they want to become a very good negotiator, a very good deal maker.
44:53
How would you train them or what would you recommend they do or read to become a better negotiator or deal maker?
45:02
Because you seem very very astute and subtle in structuring things in in very smart ways.
45:08
What would you say to someone who wants to develop that skill set?
45:11
I'm sure that there must be ways of being taught it, but in my opinion, nothing beats beats, you know, personal experience.
45:21
You know, my education was, you know, being thrown into the jungle, being thrown into the real world age 15 or 16 and having to survive.
45:30
And it was an incredible education and, you know, I I learned about everything in in life, you know, you know, traveled a lot.
45:38
I met met people all over the world.
45:40
I you know, had to you know, do a lot of different negotiations.
45:44
You know, I think as I've got older, I've realized the the the one of the most important things about a negotiation is striking a deal that that is fair to both sides.
45:55
I also realized as I get older that you're always going to come across the same people time and time again in life.
46:00
And so, your reputation is everything.
46:02
You know, in my new book, Finding My Virginity, I talk about our dealings with Delta and how, you know, the friend they they felt that they'd legged us over on and and in in a clause in a contract and how they they they came to us to rectify it.
46:17
And, you know, this that that's something I'll never forget in and most likely will will be, you know, partners with Delta for the rest of my life because of that, you know, that you know, that that kind of that kind of approach.
46:29
that kind of approach. Um you know, so I think, you know, if you if you realize that your reputation is all you have and your personal reputation and the reputation of your brand, then you've got to uh make sure that you're you're you're negotiating a deal that that
46:45
you're not going to be unhappy with and and that uh and that you think of all the things that could potentially go wrong and how you can get out of it if something goes wrong, but equally important is, you know, is trying to trying to strike a a fair balance with the people you're negotiating with. And when when we're
46:59
And when when we're looking internally, you mentioned how your teammates at the record company thought you were crazy when you brought up the airline.
47:07
Are there any business ideas that you're glad your coworkers or team have prevented you from doing?
47:13
As you know, my nickname is Dr.
47:16
Yes and you know, I I I have books like Screw It, Just Do It.
47:23
And I think if, to be honest, if I want to do something, one of one of the advantages of owning the company is I can normally ultimately get away with it.
47:30
I mean, I'll try obviously to carry people with me, but And I And I'm sure there've been one or two things which I where I have bullet uh bullet the process through where I regretted or not regretted.
47:41
I've never regretted anything, but where where uh perhaps uh uh I should have listened more to others.
47:48
But um I can't think of anything that uh you know, where they persuaded me not to do it.
47:52
I think most likely, you know, when it comes to a decision about whether to do something or not, I'm I'm I'd like to think of myself as a benevolent dictator.
48:03
I got That's the one That's the one thing I sort of generally get my own way on.
48:05
We look We would never have gone into space travel.
48:09
We'll come to that, I'm sure, later on in this talk, you know, unless I was willing to do to do things against the against the sensible you know, what would you know, on paper be sensible advice of my uh fellow directors.
48:23
We will definitely get to to space travel.
48:25
What I'm curious about uh because it seems if I look at many of the businesses that you've started, the positioning is often against a particular incumbent.
48:37
In the case of, say, airlines, for instance, that seems to be a common element in a lot of the company or or product launches.
48:43
And I wanted to connect that with just some of your well-known adventures, and you'll see where this is going in a second.
48:51
I mean, you've driven a tank down Fifth Avenue, crossed the English Channel in an amphibious car, took a 407-ft jump off the Palms Casino Resort in Las Vegas, uh gone from Morocco to Hawaii in a hot-air balloon.
49:04
You You are very, very adept at PR stunts, getting attention for the things that you do in the companies that you do.
49:13
It is Are there any particular best practices or a playbook that you have found to be very or principles, for that matter, helpful with the launching of a a new company or product? I don't think so.
49:27
I mean, I'm a great believer in trying and if if your team work really hard to to launch a new business with you or for you, the least I think I can do is is make a fool of myself, make sure that uh that new business ends up on the front pages of the newspapers rather than an anecdote on the back pages of the newspapers.
49:47
So, if that means having to use myself to you know, put the new company on the map, I will do so.
49:53
And I will try to do it in a way that makes people smile and that that doesn't horribly backfire on me.
50:00
It's like occasionally it has backfired.
50:01
You know, and I suppose it's like being a host to a party.
50:05
I mean, if you're the host of the party, if you if you stand in the corner of the room and you sip your sherry and stand around with your fellow directors all in suits, everyone's going to have a thoroughly dull party.
50:16
And yeah, no nobody will have a good time.
50:19
If you're yeah, the host of the party and you're the first in the swimming pool and and everybody else jump in, too.
50:25
Uh yeah, they may be a bit cold for the rest of the evening, but you know, they they they're going to have a great evening.
50:32
And I think, yeah, the same applies when you're launching a business.
50:34
You know, you know, make make sure that you put it on the map and um and just occasionally it will will backfire.
50:42
You mentioned space travel, which I do want to use as a touching off point to ask you roughly 50 years after starting your first business, why why write Finding My Virginity?
50:57
What was the the catalyst for that? Why do it?
50:59
I actually think every everybody should write a book about their lives.
51:03
I've persuaded a number of people to write books about their lives.
51:07
Steve Steve Fossett, for instance.
51:10
Anyway, a number of people.
51:12
But it you know, you don't have to have led a very public life.
51:14
I think everyone's led interesting lives.
51:16
Your your children and your grandchildren you know, will be fascinated by the lives the lives you lead.
51:23
And so I wrote a book Losing My Virginity when I was a young man about all all the adventures.
51:33
You know, it became a best-seller and and sold millions of copies.
51:36
But you know, I was I was quite a young man when I wrote it.
51:40
And the last 20 years or so have uh I've have very full and and very rich and you know extraordinary.
51:47
So, um so I thought I would write um in a sense a sequel to Losing My Virginity which which we called Finding My Virginity and uh and if I live another 20 years I've Virginity Found I suspect will be my last book.
52:02
Um but we'll we'll we'll we'll we'll we'll see how we go.
52:04
But no, but I think you know, I think it's important I I love reading reading and learning and I think other others might enjoy hopefully will enjoy it and you know, when I write books I try to I I try not to make them like a you know, and then and then we did this and then we did that.
52:22
Just try to make it a really good gripping read and and an enjoyable read and and not try to sort of cram in everything one's done in 20 years.
52:30
But um and and hopefully people can get a few gems from it as well.
52:34
I'm looking forward to to reading it certainly.
52:36
I mean given how dog-eared and how worn my paperback copy of Finding My Virginity is.
52:45
Uh I I'm Losing I'm Losing My Virginity. Uh yes, I'm sorry.
52:49
That's I need more coffee.
52:51
I just had some puerh tea but it's a it's a little light on the octane.
52:56
Uh but I know exactly where it is.
52:56
It's actually kept on a bookshelf.
52:57
This is just a slight digression but there are a handful of autobiographies and biographies that have had a large impact on my life and or that I find very beautiful in many ways and they are lined up on one shelf in my house so that I can see the spines and yours is there.
53:17
Uh Open by Andre Agassi is there and there are a handful of others.
53:19
Uh so it's very meaningful.
53:21
So I'm looking forward to to reading this and as a meta question what are the practices if there are any practices or habits or or anything for that matter that helps you to keep your energy level as high as it is over so over so many years.
53:38
I've I've seen you for instance, uh you seem to exercise a lot.
53:43
I've seen you just go for hours and hours skiing, swimming around Necker, kiteboarding, but uh could you speak to what helps you to maintain such a high level of energy and output over so long?
53:58
It's It's It's really mind-boggling to me to even observe from afar.
54:04
Well, looking after yourself is is is is obviously absolutely key to everything else and everything stems from you know, how healthy and well you are both physically, mentally, and and so on.
54:16
I generally do it through sport.
54:20
I've been very lucky that for many years I've lived on an island and so I can get up early in the morning.
54:26
I'll I'll play a very hard game of singles tennis against somebody who's better than me.
54:32
I'll then go kitesurfing, maybe go surfing, and then have breakfast and and and the day begins and and I'll repeat that most likely later on in the day.
54:43
And you know, maybe swim around the island as well.
54:46
So, generally I think I stay healthy and fit.
54:48
As a family, you know, my kids are now taking my adventurous streak on board.
54:52
So, every year they set us a challenge which we do together.
54:58
So, So, just to to give you a taste of it, last year they set the challenge that we would start at the Matterhorn in Switzerland.
55:10
We'd do an 8-day hike across the mountains.
55:13
We'd then get on a bicycle.
55:15
We'd drive We'd ride 100 miles a day on the bike and through the mountains all the way from the north of Italy to the southernmost tip of Italy.
55:24
Then we'd swim to Sicily.
55:26
Then we'd do another bike ride, a marathon, and then we'd end up at the top of Mount Etna. It took us a month.
55:33
You know, I was shattered about halfway through it, but by the end of it, I felt like a 25-year-old and then I just never felt so fit, you know, as since I was in my 20s.
55:41
And and obviously, you know, we'll we'll try to raise money for good cause at the same time.
55:47
But the the very fact that you know, we set ourselves these challenges, something like tomorrow I'm now in Morocco today and you know, tomorrow we're we're we're about to climb Mount Toubkal, which is the highest mountain in North Africa together and and a few other little things like bike rides and hikes and things thrown in.
56:06
You know, setting ourselves challenges, doing it together as a family, you know, involving friends and and and and trying to raise money for for good causes you know, that that that keeps you fit and healthy and your mind your mind good so that you can then do a lot more as a result.
56:24
So speaking of of doing good, which you can certainly do through nonprofits and through for-profits and other vehicles, many of my listeners wanted me to ask you to expand on your reasons for investing in Memphis Meats and clean meat.
56:42
And so so looking forward to your next 20 years of adventures, could you talk about that that decision?
56:47
I mean, if you take this beautiful world we live in, you know, one of the things that make it so beautiful is things like the the rain forests and the rain forests are rapidly disappearing because of our demand for for beef, basically.
57:04
You know, for every every hamburger we eat, the amount of land that is needed to produce it is considerable.
57:12
And as we're more and more successful at bringing more and more people out of poverty on a global basis, more and more people are starting to eat meats.
57:20
So the only way of addressing this problem is either to persuade people not to eat meat, which is I don't think it's going to be, you know, some something that we can be successful at, or coming up with alternative forms of of meat.
57:33
So, um you know, there's there's um a wonderful company I think called Beyond Meat, which produces hamburgers that uh taste absolutely like hamburgers, but are made of are made of vegetables.
57:45
You know, there's there's the other company you just mentioned that we've invested in that is literally, you know, growing uh you're taking a little tiny little bit of a live animal uh without killing it, and then growing it in laboratories.
58:00
So, um you know, so you can have uh you know, you you you you can have beef, or you can uh you know, have chicken, or pig, or even even um even fish they believe they'll be able to do.
58:10
And you can make it even healthier than um the the the the beef or the or the or the meat that you get from from live animals.
58:18
So, the challenge obviously is producing it in quantity.
58:21
They believe they will be able to do that, and if they can do it, hopefully one day we won't have to cut down the rain forests and and therefore kill kill animals in order to get our meat consumption.
58:33
And um and I suspect, you know, when when when that happens, we'll actually look back at the wholesale slaughter of animals in the way that we did it, and be slightly embarrassed about it.
58:43
My meat meat main reason for this is more to do with um trying to protect what's left of our beautiful uh earth.
58:50
And if if you're looking at other areas of interest, I mean, living as I did for a long time, 17 years in Silicon Valley, the the question of this sort of protein paradox or protein challenge is a very big one.
59:05
So, some people are looking at insect protein, like you mentioned, some people are growing meat in laboratories, others are looking at vegetable options.
59:11
Another really active area of discussion is uh cryptocurrency or blockchain and or blockchain.
59:20
Uh How do you think about, if you do, cryptocurrency?
59:25
I mean, when you're hearing all of the news and so on, are you engaging with that at all?
59:30
Are you choosing to step back?
59:30
How are you thinking about cryptocurrency?
59:35
I I mean, I find it I don't spend a lot of time on this.
59:38
I find blockchain very exciting.
59:38
I think the fact that um you know, I I Hernando de Soto has written some wonderful books about how do you pull people out of poverty and um you know, he's say taken Egypt as an example.
59:53
The 90% of people who live in Egypt live in houses.
59:58
But the but the they built those houses just on public land and they have no uh piece of paper showing that they own that land.
1:00:06
Um so, if they want to start a business, they can't mortgage their home, you know, you know, to uh start a business.
1:00:14
They can't um use their asset to borrow money to send their children to school.
1:00:19
And so, blockchain, for instance, would be the perfect place you could go and register you know, the the millions or billions of homes around the world that have no ownership on blockchain and you know, it can all be in one place and I and I think it could it could start a revolution of um you know, wealth among for for poor for very poor people.
1:00:40
You know, cryptocurrency, it's not something that I I've spent a lot of time on, but I think I marvel at uh Bitcoin and and and the genius of the man who invented it and you know, what it's achieved so far and you know, and what it could possibly achieve in the years to come and uh and Ethereum and some of these other cryptocurrencies that are coming up.
1:01:00
Again, you know, hats off to these geniuses who have you know, who who are producing them and you know, but more of my energy, to be honest, is now spent on you know, on different kinds of issues, but I mean it it I'm fascinated by everything in life and this is one of those fascinating areas.
1:01:17
I want to be respectful of your time.
1:01:17
I know you don't have a whole lot left, so I'd love to just ask a few of the audience favorite rapid-fire questions.
1:01:27
Uh then I know you're bouncing from point to point right now around the world, so I'll let you get going.
1:01:29
Uh but the the first question is what is the book or books you've given most as a gift and why?
1:01:38
Uh outside outside of your own uh book.
1:01:41
Are there any particular books that you've given or recommended to others the most?
1:01:46
Well, climate change is something which I've I've spent a lot of time on.
1:01:50
I would highly recommend a book called by Tim Flannery called The Weather Makers, which uh was one one of the books that opened my eyes to the problems that we have in the world.
1:02:02
I'm just reading um um Homo Deus, which which I find is um uh you and I I will carry on to read Sapiens, his uh his first book um or one of his first books.
1:02:13
Um I just love love you uh you know I love the style of his writing and and you know love books where you're learning you're learning something from them.
1:02:22
And um uh rather than if I if I want to if I want fiction, I'll I'll get a good film out.
1:02:28
Um so, um if I'm if I'm reading books, I like to read books which have got some substance.
1:02:32
I love autobiographies or biographies as well.
1:02:37
Do you read most of your books as text or do you listen to audiobooks?
1:02:41
I'm just thinking back to the challenges you had with dyslexia as as a younger person.
1:02:45
Have you learned to cope with those and now read mostly text or is audio something that you use much?
1:02:50
Um I have largely coped with these things now and enjoy, you know, a good solid book with uh hardback book.
1:03:00
I'm just waiting I'm just doing my own audiobook for uh Finding My Virginity.
1:03:06
It take takes a long time to Takes a long time, yeah. Yeah.
1:03:10
And um uh so, um but but anyway, I know that more and more people do to audiobooks.
1:03:17
so I I'm sure it's worthwhile.
1:03:17
In the last, let's just call it 5 years or so, what new belief, behavior, or habit has most improved your life?
1:03:25
Or it what what habit has improved your life?
1:03:28
Could be any new belief, behavior, or habit that has markedly improved your life.
1:03:32
If we could go back a bit further than the last 5 years, I think we can No, we can go back.
1:03:38
We can go back as far as you like, absolutely.
1:03:39
One of the one of the best things my parents taught me, going back a long way, uh if I ever said anything ill about anybody, um they would um sit me in front of the mirror and um for 10 minutes and in order to sort of let me know how badly it reflected on me.
1:03:58
So, I you know, I'd like to think I've I've never genuinely I've genuinely never spoken ill about other people, and I think that's been one of the one of the you know, best bits of advice that I've ever given uh sorry, I've ever received or and and obviously then given.
1:04:12
Archbishop Tutu who uh chaired the Elders, which is an organization that we've run for for 10 years now.
1:04:18
Um Uh you know, he was the epitome of forgiveness with the Truth and Reconciliation Commission in South Africa.
1:04:27
Um when Nelson Mandela, you know, took over power, and um you know, I think just you know, people, nations, you know, it should try to we should all try to run based on that philosophy.
1:04:39
Um and I think with with the world would be a happier place if that if that happened.
1:04:45
You you mentioned Nelson Mandela.
1:04:45
This is clearly not one of my uh stock rapid-fire questions, but uh I've I've heard you refer to Nelson as a mentor.
1:04:56
Uh are there any key lessons or takeaways or memorable sentences or anything that come to mind when you think of your interactions with Nelson Mandela?
1:05:07
Well, you know, I was lucky enough to um get to know him very well over the years, even to the extent that uh on July the 18th, we shared a birthday and and he would ring me every single birthday to wish me a happy birthday and you know, I remember yeah, the sadness when I didn't get that call not so many years ago.
1:05:24
You know, he had an absolute joy for life and you know, he would dance, he would smile, he would embrace everybody, but he had a a tough side to him as well and I remember one lunch I had with him early on in our relationship where you know, I'd been warned that he was always trying to extract money for for good causes.
1:05:48
So, you know, we had the first course, then we had the second course, then we had the pudding and we were on to the coffee and I thought my God, I got away with it and and then and then he turns to me and says, "Richard, last week I had lunch with Bill Gates and he gave me $50 million for such and such a cause."
1:06:07
And anyway, so he did not miss an opportunity.
1:06:10
Yeah, yeah, I mean he I I have I've not apart from maybe Archbishop Tutu, I've I've really never met and I haven't met anybody as extraordinary in my lifetime as him.
1:06:21
When you yourself feel and maybe you don't feel this, but I'll I'll assume for the moment that you do.
1:06:29
When you've felt overwhelmed or unfocused or if you feel like you've temporarily lost your focus, what do you do or what have you found to help?
1:06:42
You know, what questions do you ask yourself?
1:06:44
Is there in in those cases, what have you done historically that is that has been helpful?
1:06:50
You know, I personally believe that the majority of people who have down moments in their lives, they can they they can actually trace it back quite often to alcohol.
1:06:59
You know, so the perhaps the only days in my life that I feel lethargic is you know, if instead of having you know, two glasses at night time, I had five or six.
1:07:10
And if I find that's happened, you know, on more than one or two occasions, I then give up uh completely for, you know, a month or two and uh and feel absolutely fantastic, of course, and realize that I'm never going to drink another touch of alcohol again until actually you do.
1:07:29
And and um you know, fortunately, I you know, you know, I'm so busy that I that I just can't afford to let myself down um too often.
1:07:39
um too often. But my guess is that um you for the for the vast majority of people, you know, if you can if you can be high on life and fit and healthy and uh and you know, if you if you do find that um that something like alcohol is
1:07:54
uh is is is just beginning to you're beginning to drip to get go a bit too far, uh you know, being high on life is just so wonderful you know, so A friend of mine, uh entrepreneur named Matt Mullenweg, he's been on this podcast as well. He's the CEO of a
1:08:08
He's the CEO of a company called Automatic, uh which is behind WordPress, which powers around 37% of the internet right now.
1:08:13
And uh he told me at one point that he had learned something long ago, which was uh alcohol is borrowing happiness from tomorrow.
1:08:26
And certainly seems to be the case.
1:08:27
I think that there's there's a there's a there's a beautiful words and and they're very very very true words.
1:08:32
Um You know, I mean my my you know, my my son's just had a year off alcohol and and you know, look uh you can tell he's just so high on life.
1:08:44
He's just enjoying enjoying it like uh like he's never enjoyed it before and and you know, so like you know, if you could do it in moderation, that's great.
1:08:52
Uh you know, I tell the story in the book.
1:08:54
It was one one night in when we in when we won the um Grand Prix in Melbourne and um anyway, I let my hair down to such an extent that it would have made um uh the film Hangover look like a a children's children's film.
1:09:09
Uh and um and and uh the next day, I woke up and anyway, I I gave I gave up the 6 months, and and so it yeah, it doesn't happen to me too often, um but um but I think you know, gen- generally it's yeah, generally when that that you know, that's the one area that uh I think a lot of a lot of people who do you know, run into problems in lives, it's it's just from sli- slightly too much.
1:09:36
Now, during those periods when you go off of alcohol, do you avoid circumstances where other people are drinking, or is there something that you say to people if you are in those circumstances?
1:09:46
How do you ensure that you don't have just that one drink that then triggers more drinks if you're trying to take time away from alcohol?
1:09:54
My trick is simply to have uh cranberry and soda in a champagne glass.
1:10:02
People don't know, you know, I don't you know, I just will take cranberry and soda in a champagne glass, and but I think look, I think for a lot of people, you especially when people first give up anything like that, drugs, alcohol, they need to walk away completely for a while.
1:10:16
Fortunately, you know, I haven't got it you know, I've never let myself get to that that that stage, but you know, but I think that you know, the best advice is is to you know, get you know, get get it you know, just you know, just say I I need to go to bed early tonight, and and walk walk away, and otherwise, it's very difficult I think for people to stick with it.
1:10:37
Are you Are you Are you somebody who drinks or not or not?
1:10:39
Uh I don't drink a whole lot. I do enjoy wine.
1:10:41
Uh fortunately, I I don't feel like I've had any uh issues with alcohol, although genetically, my family seems to have that predisposition.
1:10:50
I certainly have a fair amount of alcoholism in my extended family.
1:10:54
So, I do I think about it quite a bit.
1:10:57
I I can I can tell that I think I have the potential to abuse it, but I haven't up to this point.
1:11:03
I think that you and I you and I have such fascinating lives that that you know that that that is the best way of keeping you know keeping these sorts of things in check.
1:11:13
You know, we just we want to every day is so interesting that you just not going to want to waste waste a day by you know let let letting something like that take over your life. Right. No, definitely.
1:11:24
And just just two more questions for me.
1:11:29
This is one really intended just to give people a window into how you cope with some of the harder times.
1:11:37
Do you have a favorite failure of yours?
1:11:40
And what I mean by that is how has a failure or an apparent failure set you up for later success?
1:11:45
Are there any particular examples that come to mind?
1:11:49
mind? Yeah, I mean I think on me and on the adventure side you know the first time we crossed the Atlantic and the boat we are trying to break the record for the fastest crossing of the Atlantic and getting the blue ribbon back and um you know and we sank and then the next
1:12:07
day we built a new another boat and we we were successful and the British people love people who are underdogs and and it taught me that actually you know failing and then being successful most likely was better than just going out there and being successful the first time round. I mean the overcoming
1:12:24
I mean the overcoming difficulties the public almost preferred than someone who's just successful the first time round.
1:12:31
Maybe maybe not so much in America but in in Britain anyway.
1:12:33
I suppose the most notable business failure that we've ever had was taking on Coca-Cola with Virgin Cola and for a while it really looked like we were going to topple Coke and Pepsi.
1:12:45
I mean we were outselling them in the UK.
1:12:50
The Virgin brand resonated.
1:12:53
You know, people loved the drink.
1:12:53
I mean And then, you know, we landed in Times Square with the with the with the Sherman tank.
1:12:58
And, you know, we we took on Coke in their homeland in America.
1:13:02
And Coke decided to fire back.
1:13:06
And they filled up DC-10s full of money and hit men and hit women and they landed in the territories that we'd launched.
1:13:14
And they suddenly Virgin Cola started disappearing from all these shelves.
1:13:18
And I think the lesson I learned from that was you know, if I'm going to take on a Goliath, I've got to be we've got to be different.
1:13:26
We've got to be much better than they are.
1:13:27
And, you know, with a cola, you're just another cola.
1:13:31
You're not you you can't be fundamentally different.
1:13:33
You can be cheaper, but you can't be fundamentally different.
1:13:36
So, anything we've launched since then, we've we've only launched new businesses if if we if we can make a fundamental difference. I love it.
1:13:43
Yeah, that's so so important to underscore, I think.
1:13:49
This is the last rapid-fire question.
1:13:49
If you if you could have a giant billboard anywhere with anything on it.
1:13:53
So, and this is metaphorically speaking.
1:13:55
So, getting a message out to millions or billions of people, what would it say and why?
1:13:59
It could be a few words, could be a paragraph, could be a quote you live your life by, yours or someone else's.
1:14:06
It Does anything come to mind if you could get a message out to billions of people?
1:14:13
What would you what what might you put on that billboard?
1:14:15
Couple of days, I think I I'm going to sound like a a um a mortal um on stage.
1:14:22
Um About about the the need to bring peace to peace to the world.
1:14:27
And and and therefore I will in in instead go back to be a businessman, which is, you know, I think just something like nothing ventured, nothing gained.
1:14:35
I think I think that in life if people you know, if people you know, try things and uh stick their neck out, they're going to have a lot more fun than than if they sit at home watching other people do it. And um so, yeah.
1:14:47
So, I think that old that old quote, "Nothing ventured, nothing gained" is important.
1:14:54
Having said that, you know, I I you know, I've been involved for 10 years now in this wonderful group called The Elders and um and Nelson Mandela set it up and it's now run by Kofi Annan.
1:15:06
And I and I really do believe that in my in our lifetime, I've seen so many unnecessary wars.
1:15:11
I've seen the Vietnamese War.
1:15:12
I've seen the Iraq War, the Libyan War.
1:15:15
And these were all incredibly unjust wars which have you know, gone on to spawn awful things like ISIS and so on which would not have happened uh if it wasn't for actually the West taking it upon themselves to interfere in other countries' business and and killing and maiming thousands of people.
1:15:34
And you know, we we we we must make sure that we don't have any wars in the future.
1:15:41
And I think it it it takes business people uh it takes society, it takes all of us to really make sure that our politicians never never take us down that path again.
1:15:53
I mean, one of the saddest things I think about the invasion of Iraq was, you know, yes, there were thousands of people on the streets.
1:16:00
There should have been hundreds and hundreds of thousands just like uh the Vietnamese War to to stop such a foolish um excursion.
1:16:07
You know, all all conflicts should be able to be resolved by negotiation and you know, even if you don't get exactly what you want out of it, um that is better than better than the than all all the bloodshed that flows from from conflict.
1:16:22
I uh I think that's a perfect place to wrap up because it ties in so much.
1:16:27
I think that for people listening, whether you want to leave your mark on the world as a business person, as a philanthropist, there's actually a very common skillset when you look at the highest levels.
1:16:41
You need to be able to negotiate, you need to know how to deal make.
1:16:45
Uh and you're talking about say ventures, and nothing ventured, nothing gained.
1:16:53
Which also ties nicely into adventure if people look at the etymology.
1:16:55
I mean, these are very closely related concepts.
1:17:00
Uh and I'm just so thrilled that uh we were able to find the time to jump on the phone, Richard, and have this conversation.
1:17:09
And uh certainly recommend uh because I will be reading it along with everyone else that people take a look at finding my virginity.
1:17:16
Uh I can't wait to pick up where I left off in in the previous installment.
1:17:22
Is there anything that Anything else you would like to recommend to everyone listening to the millions of people hearing this uh that they do or try, ask themselves, any anything at all, any next action or anything else that you'd like to to leave with uh as parting words?
1:17:39
Well, I thoroughly enjoyed talking to you.
1:17:41
And and and um would like would obviously uh look forward look forward to seeing you again soon.
1:17:48
I was just thinking on um we were talking about alcohol.
1:17:51
I mean, now, I think the I think the converse is true.
1:17:55
I mean, and and um to to uh what we were talking about on alcohol.
1:17:59
And and and that is that I mean, if you say take the take the war on drugs um that's been going on now for 50 years.
1:18:05
As a businessman, I would have closed down the war on drugs 49 years ago.
1:18:11
I mean, it's been an abject failure.
1:18:12
And yeah, governments have continued to to perpetuate this war on drugs, which has resulted in, you know, hundreds of thousands of people being put in prison, hundreds of thousands of casualties.
1:18:23
It's resulted in, you know, 390 billion a year going to the underworld.
1:18:28
And yet there is there is a simple answer.
1:18:30
And that is if you uh treat drugs as a health problem, not a criminal problem, and you help people with drug problems, countries that do that are getting on top of it.
1:18:37
So, you know, as and and we as a you know, business leaders are trying to educate governments into seeing you know, opening their eyes and saying, "Look, you know, if Portugal can do this say for heroin takers, you America should do the same thing."
1:18:52
They they had a a massive heroin epidemic in the year 2000.
1:18:56
And you know, by embracing those heroin addicts and helping them uh become normal members of society again, they managed to solve the problem.
1:19:06
America now has the biggest um heroin epidemic in in in in history.
1:19:09
And uh and yet the way they're dealing with it is the same old old war on drugs.
1:19:15
And um the way to deal with it is you know, you you ask these people to come forward.
1:19:22
You you help them with their fixes initially.
1:19:24
Uh you you supply them with a product.
1:19:27
You stop them having to break and enter into people's homes.
1:19:29
You and and you make sure that uh when they're ready to um wean themselves off, that you help them wean themselves off.
1:19:37
Um and you make them useful members of society again.
1:19:39
You know, I'm part of something called the Global Drug Commission.
1:19:42
And uh we've got 15 people who used to be presidents of their country. Kofi Annan's on it.
1:19:47
And we've done a lot of studies on on on on this subject.
1:19:51
And you know, we believe that every single drug should be regulated and taxed and uh and warnings should be very firmly put on these drugs in the same way you have warnings on cigarettes or warnings on alcohol.
1:20:02
Um but but that's the way to overcome the the you know, this problem, not to carry on having having a war on drugs.
1:20:09
I think this is tremendously important.
1:20:11
And I'm really glad that you brought it up.
1:20:13
Just having seen my best friend growing up, I grew up on uh in rural Long Island.
1:20:18
My my best friend a few years ago died of an opiate overdose.
1:20:24
And uh it's it's a hugely important problem that is not being It's being addressed in the most counterproductive of ways, as you noted, and uh I'm actually this is probably something we could we could talk for a long time about, but I'm involved with supporting research at places like Johns Hopkins looking at even using certain things uh like say psilocybin for the treatment of certain forms of addiction and end-of-life anxiety and so on.
1:20:56
But the important component of that or one of the components of that being looking at how to reschedule and properly supervise and regulate these compounds as opposed to immediately criminalizing them and just compounding the problem with another hundred problems uh that that end up fixing nothing.
1:21:14
So, I I I very much appreciate you bringing that up. Yeah, well, thank you.
1:21:19
I think um yeah, I mean, it is it's sad and strange that um yeah, that year after year goes by and um it's you just if you told to go to people in who are, you know, in in positions of power, they they actually individually they know what the right thing is to do.
1:21:37
They just don't have the courage to do it.
1:21:39
And um and and we just need a little bit more courage, I think, with some of our politicians.
1:21:43
Well, Richard, uh thank you so much for being an an agent of change and also sharing your stories in such a way that you inspire other people to do the same.
1:21:54
And uh I'm I'm really excited to see what other dents you put in the world.
1:22:01
And uh for people listening, they can find you on social media, Richard Branson everywhere.
1:22:06
Certainly, they should check out Finding My Virginity.
1:22:09
And uh to people listening, I will link to everything including the the new book in the show notes at tim. blog/podcast.
1:22:18
And Richard, you have uh so many projects and so many things to keep you high on life, so I will let you get back to it, but thank you so much for taking the time to chat today. Thanks so much, Tim.
1:22:28
And once again, congratulations. Talk to you soon.
1:22:30
All right, I'll talk to you soon. Thanks.
1:22:35
Hey guys, this is Tim again.
1:22:35
Just a few more things before you take off.
1:22:36
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This episode is brought to you by Ascent Protein, the cleanest, least processed protein I've ever consumed.
1:25:45
And I have tried just about everything.
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Since well before the 4-Hour Body, I've started my day with 20 to 30 g of protein first thing.
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That has been part of my routine.
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But I don't always have the time or necessarily the desire to cook an entire meal. So, what to do?
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Protein powders can be a fast way to get this protein need met, but most products are full of crap.
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They're bleached, they have excess sugar, terrible artificial sweeteners, or just straightforward low-grade, low-quality protein.
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Ascent contains zero artificial ingredients and the parent company is actually a cheese manufacturer, so they produce their own native proteins.
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It's It's really fascinating and I've looked at their processing.
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It takes or it took them about 5 years to develop.
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You can mix the protein in as little as 4 oz without any clumps or issues of mixability whatsoever and they nailed the taste.
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They tested, for instance, for the chocolate version 282 different versions.
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They put a lot of money and a lot of time into R&D for this particular product.
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They have both whey and micellar casing, so if you want to say improve body composition and recovery overnight, slow release, you can take the micellar casing or, in my case, whey protein I would take post-workout, for instance, or in the morning. So, check it out.
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These guys are really fascinating. Visit ascentprotein. com/tim.
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That's a s c e n t p r o t e i n. com.
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Ascent, like first ascent going up. Ascentprotein.
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com/tim and you will receive 20% off your entire purchase.
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If you want a very quick 20 to 30 g dose to start your day or after workout, this is a fantastic option.
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It is arguably the best that I've found. So, again, check it out. Ascentprotein. com/tim.