0:00
What were the most ridiculous tech company names you all came up with on the show?
Search this video
0:04
>> We came up with so many more and they were all taken.
0:07
They were all [laughter] actual companies.
0:10
Your new favorite show just dropped, The Audacity, a new series about Silicon Valley by one of the writers of Succession and Better Call Saul.
0:15
Why not just call it Apple?
0:18
Were you worried about a lawsuit or something? Yes.
0:19
It's just a piece of fruit.
0:22
[laughter] You can't You can't copyright fruit.
0:25
>> I'm Alex Heath, here with my co-host Ellis Hamburger, and today we're joined by Audacity showrunner, Jonathan [music] Glatzer.
0:31
I don't want to name names, but you know >> They'd want to be named.
0:34
Maybe that's why I don't want to name them.
0:37
>> [laughter] >> Welcome to Access, where the most influential leaders shaping tech actually say what they think. Let's do it.
0:47
>> [music] >> Wait, I'm being ambushed now by the guest?
0:50
We were trying to ambush him.
0:52
>> I'm afraid that this show has made me very paranoid.
0:53
So, uh that that is that is my my natural state right now.
0:57
I had an idea of how to start the show, but I feel like we should just start with what you said, that this show is making you paranoid.
1:04
What do you mean by that?
1:05
>> The the tech world is known for uh creating phrases like doxxing and uh it's it's a bit of a third rail, you know, when you when you step into this arena and people have very, very strong opinions.
1:19
It's uh laced with politics and um coded with all kinds of uh cultural uh signifiers and such.
1:28
And so, it's it's we knew from the start that there were going to be haters and um but we also knew that there were people who'd be quite grateful to see uh you know, a satire about the tech world.
1:44
So, uh with, you know, terrific characters and uh some some some comedy, some tragedy, and all of those things.
1:51
So, I I my paranoia goes away after a while.
1:53
As you explored it, is tech uh as dumb or even dumber than you thought going in as you did your research?
2:01
Oh, I guess more insidious.
2:02
Uh it's not it's not it's not uh it's certainly not dumb.
2:08
And um I think it's important to posit that uh if if there's any sort of um us versus them aspect to this, they won.
2:16
They they they're they're already they they they they have uh succeeded and are continuing to succeed in in in their ambitions.
2:26
And so, um we are uh you know, so someone said, I think it was John Knowles, the the the writer of uh A Separate Peace, said that sarcasm is the protest of the weak.
2:39
And and it might just be what we've got left, you know?
2:41
It might just be what what all that's left to us is a weak protest.
2:45
Um but thankfully, we've got a platform for it and millions of people can weekly protest with us. Weekly.
2:53
Well, I wanted to ask about AMC Plus, but we'll get to that later.
2:55
But uh t- take us into the the writers' room for season 2, cuz it My understanding is you are doing that right now.
3:01
Are you like on your lunch break right now? >> the hall. Okay. Uh basically, yes.
3:04
This I have my sushi waiting for me here, but >> Amazing.
3:09
I won't I won't I won't subject you to that.
3:12
>> [laughter] >> What is what What's it like?
3:13
I mean, Ellis and I live in LA and, you know, Hollywood surrounds us constantly, but neither of us have been in a in a writers' room, especially for a show like this.
3:22
And it's obviously a rare treat to have season 2 greenlit as season 1 is going, right?
3:26
Which is a testament to the show. >> Yeah. >> Thank you very much. Thank you.
3:32
Testament to the show, but I assume that gives you some confidence going into this that maybe would have been different had it been a late greenlight. >> I suppose so, yeah.
3:39
I mean, um first of all, I'm in New York now. We're not in LA.
3:43
We were in LA in season 1.
3:43
Um well, this winter was a bit I would It's like a 24/7 commercial for Los Angeles this winter and over here on the East Coast.
3:54
Um you don't know how it's going to be received uh season 1 while you're writing season 2, so it's always uh you no matter when you where you are in the process, you have to kind of put the blinders on and and just stick with your gut and what makes you happy and what makes you what what you want to see these characters do.
4:16
It's really the best barometer you've got.
4:19
And um kind of, you know, it's what got you to this place, etc.
4:22
So, um but the writers' room itself is a fascinating thing. No two are the same.
4:29
Um it is really very much about the the mix of personalities and um ambitions and the references, the ages, uh the cultural differences between the people and how that either harmonizes or clashes.
4:45
Every every room is different.
4:48
Um it is probably the most dominant aspect of it though is the showrunner's personality and their voice.
4:54
And the job of of all the other writers is in many ways to understand what that is and kind of imitate it.
5:05
Um you know, try to capture what what that voice is.
5:08
And you know, again, shows every show is different.
5:11
You know, if we're talking about something like Law & Order that's been going on for 20 seasons and has a procedural uh component component, it is a procedural, uh then it's you know, it's a different thing and the personalities that you bring in are less critical to the outcome.
5:28
Um but uh especially for season 1, season 2 show, it really the voice of the showrunner kind of has to be the one constant.
5:38
Um it helps uh if if the voice is constant or consistent.
5:44
I don't know about constant, actually, consistent.
5:46
What I find most fascinating about the tech people is that they set out to do something really good.
5:54
Um [laughter] and I I I I and I I believe that's the case. >> Some of them. Some of them, Jonathan.
6:01
Some of [clears throat] them, um but that was certainly the that was certainly the marketing.
6:07
Um and it was a it was a good one, you know, that we're going to change the world for the better and uh we're going to bring people together and we're going to help them communicate with each other.
6:16
We're going to bring down barriers of tolerance and we're going to even help, you know, doctors cure cancer and we're you know, they're still talking about curing cancer.
6:26
Um and you know, I think that what happened was they got really rich.
6:29
They got really rich, but they also put it out into the world and they and they saw that people seem to dig discord and they like uh being bifurcated.
6:39
And they they they they gravitated towards the the the coarseness and the the things that separated us and and divided us.
6:49
And they made a lot of money doing that.
6:52
And and it became an addiction for a lot of those people and they made a lot of money off of addicting us onto this this coarseness.
7:02
Um and bit by bit, you know, I think that they all they're all very, very smart people.
7:06
I think they realize that this is uh deleterious to to society in general.
7:12
Um it was so [ __ ] wonderful how much money was coming in.
7:15
How are we going to turn this ship around now?
7:18
I mean, look at all this this cash that's coming in. It's it's extraordinary.
7:23
And and and and the cash was coming into them in the court in the form of of uh stock options and you know, it was valuation. It wasn't actual cash.
7:32
The actual commodity that they were collecting, the actual the real commodity that they were collecting, was was us. Was our private data.
7:43
And that still is the case.
7:43
And that's why our our show kind of focuses in of of all of the technological arenas that we could go to, private data is an evergreen topic that you know, obviously, when you make a show, you're about 18 months before the air date, 12 at least 12 months.
8:02
So, you're you're always going to be a little bit behind the current events, let alone something like tech that is so fast-moving.
8:10
You had to kind of pick something that was going to be, you know, still relevant.
8:14
And personal data, private data is going to be relevant for some time. AI is all about it.
8:22
It's definitely a fascinating group, and I work with a lot of founders on their storytelling, big and small.
8:26
And one of the things I joke with them in the first meeting is, "So, uh what's your childhood trauma that led you to build this thing?" >> [laughter] >> Right.
8:36
>> And that's one of the reasons I love that you kind of have a therapist as one of the key parts of the show.
8:43
Uh there's a lot to dig into there, and uh how did that idea come to be?
8:45
Well, it's my own personal story is um I grew up in that house with with a therapist and a psychiatrist.
8:52
It was my step my stepdad.
8:54
I was um sort of bit displaced.
8:57
Uh my father was elsewhere.
8:59
So, it and I could hear the patients.
9:04
So, uh unlike in our show, the the patients uh the therapy sessions were incredibly boring.
9:11
So, I I mostly didn't listen in.
9:14
But there were there were some afternoons when all you had were Gilligan's Island or something to watch on TV and you I'd just take a bowl of Honeycomb and just like sit there and and listen, which is, you know, a total violation and I'm sorry to those people.
9:28
>> [laughter] >> I really am.
9:29
>> knew your enneagram at age 8, so it worked out for you. It worked out.
9:34
I knew that um I knew that the idea of a sacred space, the idea of privacy being something that can be contained within this box, this room that is the therapist's office, was a fallacy.
9:47
And I knew that it's funny because I I I've been through therapy before and sometimes I've done it in in the therapist's house, and my first question is, "Do you have any kids? And do they live here?
9:58
And you know, it it's it's it's just that they're the idea of it, and of course the the doctor-patient confidentiality thing is another one of these things that it's like it we're just sort of trusting that this is it's a faith-based notion.
10:17
And I think that that in combination with the private data that's being mined by the >> lead character, Duncan Park, played wonderfully by Billy Magnussen. He's He's so good. Isn't he? Yeah, he's incredible.
10:32
>> like I've known him my whole life.
10:32
He's got that that that affect to him.
10:33
Yeah, and and and feared him just a little bit. [laughter] Oh, yeah.
10:38
Definitely uh that's my childhood trauma.
10:42
How's that [laughter] came up? Yeah.
10:43
Well, and you've got the you agreed to this billboard, you know, you you sprinkle it in throughout, and it is that nice juxtaposition of yeah, these tech billionaires coming to therapy expecting privacy, not getting it, and we're all kind of getting that from a user agreement perspective, these things we sign and we >> Exactly. We don't look at.
11:01
Um the one thing I will say, your show's very well done with like Silicon Valley wealth coding.
11:07
Uh obviously you had really good advisors and you met with good people on that.
11:11
I will say the one thing I had qualms with is the billionaire is going to have the therapist come to their house.
11:18
They're not going to go to the therapist's house.
11:19
>> [laughter] >> Well, he there there is there I don't know is it still Yeah, no, there There there is a bit of it in in the pilot, but there used to be a scene there there used to be a scene where it's like, "Why can't you come here?
11:30
Why can't you come here?"
11:32
And the whole thing with therapists, and it is I will I will say this, a life coach will go to your house, but a true therapist a therapist who is who who was trained and believes in their training will understand that there are inside that therapist's office there are boundaries. It is a it is work.
11:47
It is the idea of doing the work.
11:50
So, doing the work includes actually going to the therapist's office.
11:55
The pandemic kind of screwed all that up, and so we all just go to our computers and and do Zoom sessions with our therapists, which the Zoom Corporation is very happy with. Yeah.
12:06
Oh, mine's right after this.
12:07
>> [laughter] >> Oh, good. Yeah.
12:10
Ellis likes to schedule therapy right after the pod versus before.
12:14
He has more to work through.
12:16
>> [laughter] >> I get that. I get that.
12:18
No, just that that that that has broken down to some extent over recent years, but the the the logic behind doing the work and actually going to somebody's house or office is part of that commitment to therapy that is kind of required.
12:32
So, that's that that's why that's how I justify it. All right. I stand corrected. Not at all.
12:39
Also, uh one of my favorite lines from episode one is where it's being described what neighborhood that the the boy is now living in and and the mother, the therapist, I believe says, "It's all normal people, but you know, sad."
12:54
Do you get the sense that people in tech are happier or more miserable than in the world of Succession, would you say?
13:00
In the world of Succession, um happier.
13:02
Um >> Yeah, media's the worst.
13:04
There there's no one that hates themselves more than a media executive.
13:08
>> [laughter] >> But the the uh the happiness that is in Silicon Valley is also suspect.
13:14
You know, I I was listening to a podcast about uh how AI is kind of encouraging people in Silicon Valley they're such believers in the future to come that they are helping to create that they've started smoking cigarettes, and they start going out uh sunning themselves without sunscreen because they are so sure that AI is going to solve all that.
13:39
And these are the people who work in the industry.
13:42
So, call that happiness, call that delusional, maybe happiness is a form of delusion. I don't know.
13:49
You know, ignorance is bliss. Yeah.
13:51
Well, that's the techno-optimist uh drug, as it were. Right?
13:53
It's kind of intoxicating.
13:55
Yeah, I mean, that sounds like good material for season two, Jonathan. I think you >> Totally.
13:59
With tech I often feel this.
14:02
I'll, you know, Ellis and I both live in LA.
14:03
We do trips up to SF a lot for work.
14:06
I go to tech conferences a lot, and I'll come back, and I'll tell my wife like, "I feel like I'm living in a TV show sometimes.
14:12
Like I I'm constantly reminded of how absurd this life is and this bubble is by being able to leave it and go back into it.
14:20
I think if I live there, I would just get used to it, but the kinds of I mean, I was at a dinner a few weeks ago, and one of the the hosts was seriously talking about how his daughter's mind maps to an LLM, and like using the same language as like describing an LLM to how a child thinks, and everyone else is just like nodding vigorously around and like, "Yeah, yeah."
14:41
And it's like nowhere else on Earth would this conversation be like socially acceptable except in Silicon Valley.
14:46
And you have so much material.
14:49
You could do dozens and dozens of season seasons, and reality really is stranger than fiction, I think, a lot of the times.
14:56
There is an LLM storyline in season two. Great.
15:00
Uh and it does it does pertain to personal data, and it is something that it is it is amazing to the truth is is that these school tablets that are handed out for free are totally mining the students' data, and they do sell that to to data brokers
15:18
who do aggregate that with their socials and their shopping habits and their sexual habits and their religion and everything else that could possibly exist on a person to create something that not only includes that online
15:32
behavior, but also their behavior reports, their disciplinary reports, their um you know, their grades, and whether this person by all of this, you know, this composite of information is going to be successful, is going to be a money
15:46
maker, should we market towards uh should we market them towards towards that goal, or are they going to be, you know, as it used to be in in England, there was like you're going to be a doctor or a diplomat, you're going to be working in the coal mines. You know,
15:58
You know, it's it's this and and we are not necessarily sending people into these different shoots, but we are marketing them towards that, which is encouraging the inevitability of their out of these outcomes. Is this an edtech scoop?
16:13
Are you blowing the lid off of the edtech industrial complex?
16:17
Do I need to be chasing this?
16:19
I think you should chase this.
16:21
It is not I I I if it is a scoop, then it is it shouldn't be.
16:24
It should be it should be well known.
16:26
It is it is easily I mean, I I I did the research, and you know, got got all this information.
16:32
Now I'm getting paranoid.
16:35
We literally just got a tablet for my daughter in TK from the Los Angeles Unified School District, and uh yeah, on top of being just kind of slimy and greasy like iPads are, now there's another layer of that.
16:50
>> that credit score early, guys.
16:50
Well, it is it is odd that we are given that schools are given this equipment for free, and yet there's so many other things that are like, you know, teachers are paying for crayons and pencils and food, you know, out of their pockets because students don't have it.
17:07
That is the age-old thing though that I come back to.
17:10
It's very corny at this point, but if you're, you know, if you're not paying for the product, you are the product.
17:14
And that's always been the case with tech.
17:16
Um and yeah, it's important I think to remember that, especially with AI these days.
17:22
I think though that is that is perhaps somewhat because it doesn't matter whether you're paying for the product.
17:28
Paying for the product True.
17:28
actually [laughter] just gives you gives them more data. True.
17:31
You're still the product.
17:34
>> track your credit Well, they they've got your credit card, they've got your much more information about you if you're in fact a subscriber. So, there it is.
17:41
I mean, one of the things that I just realized recently was was Zoom was that, you know, Zoom has a an app that goes onto your computer, >> [snorts] >> and yet you can also use Zoom through the browser like Safari, but they don't want you to do that because it's a lot more difficult to track you on a browser than it would be if you're using the built-in, you know, It's a fuller experience, Jonathan. That's why. I uh for them.
18:09
>> [laughter] >> You you clearly know your [ __ ] I mean, who did you kind of consult with, learn from uh to get this stuff right?
18:14
This is pretty nuanced and and How many office badges did you collect on your Silicon Valley [laughter] tour?
18:23
I don't want to name names, Oh, come on.
18:26
but you know, they'd want to be named.
18:28
Maybe that's why I don't want to name them.
18:30
>> [laughter] >> You're retaining your leverage. Okay, good.
18:33
Um no, but there there were a bunch of people that we talked to, and honestly, the the the end result of it was like they would say, "You got to look this up.
18:43
You got to check this out.
18:43
You got to check this out.
18:44
You got to And suddenly you become capable of of searching this stuff yourself." Yeah.
18:49
And you know, totally destroying your search history for uh the um the people who are wondering if you're what what what you're up to.
18:58
Escort night at the Rosewood.
18:59
When you search that for a while, it gets really interesting, right? Thursday's cougar night.
19:04
Oh, you know your [ __ ] You you really did have a good sherpa.
19:08
Did you have someone who really unlocked this for you?
19:11
Like the the shaman of all this, or It really wasn't one person, but um there there is a a person that I guess I can name is Josh Markuse, and he's uh wickedly smart.
19:24
I worked for Eric Schmidt, and worked on was on Obama's defense uh I'm going to screw up the name of the defense council that he was on. Um Oh boy, Eric Schmidt.
19:33
You could do a few seasons on that. Oh, man.
19:39
>> [laughter] >> Just Eric Schmidt.
19:41
He was he he was very he was very coy and cagey about Eric Schmidt personally, [laughter] but Two words, sex dungeon.
19:48
But uh Jo- Jo- I remember giving him my pilot, and he like redlined it.
19:51
Was like, love this scene.
19:55
You sure you don't want to go It was like it was It was a dramaturgical redlining, which which I thought was terrific, actually, and I enjoyed that.
20:04
But he he he was a great insight.
20:07
But look, you know, a lot of these things really are discoverable to anyone.
20:12
And that's I think in many ways the fear of of a lot of tech people and how much is is going to be known.
20:20
I don't know how many I don't know how many episodes you guys have seen of of of our show the other Just the first two.
20:26
I think Ellis saw the first. Yeah. I saw the first, yeah. Okay.
20:30
Well, you got to keep going.
20:30
It gets >> I kind of was like, do I Do I have time? Triangulation with kids.
20:35
And I don't want to get into spoilers. Fair enough. Fair enough.
20:40
So that I won't I won't spoil it my own show either.
20:43
But but please do keep watching.
20:46
It gets weirder and wilder and and and significantly more pointed as concerns private data and and the like.
20:52
Um I think [snorts] I can say that Duncan, our lead character, does form a company called Panada, which stands for privacy is not a thing anymore.
21:04
>> [laughter] >> And And it it goes on from there.
21:04
But uh And the tech company names are like literally that literal.
21:10
Like I don't know if you caught this week that Andreessen Horowitz started a new show called monitoring the situation. No.
21:17
[laughter] Yeah, they sure did.
21:17
And that's all fine, but I do a lot of like namings with with startup founders and whatnot, and always the first place they go to is the most literal name possible for their company.
21:28
And so you you absolutely nailed that aspect. >> [laughter] >> Good. Good.
21:33
>> I wanted to actually like touch on this for a second cuz Ellis does literally name tech companies for a living and he's had some great ones.
21:41
Some of those billboards that you saw around in SF Ellis worked on, Jonathan.
21:46
What were the most ridiculous tech company names you all came >> [laughter] >> up with on the show?
21:50
And I want Ellis to say if they're good or not.
21:52
I liked the the Spookle one is is up there.
21:54
Spookle for you had the agreed to this billboard. >> Yes. Yes.
21:58
But I will say Well, anecdotally, the the we came up with so many more It's so fun.
22:07
>> take and they were all taken.
22:07
They [laughter] were all like the company I couldn't believe it.
22:11
Yo Bongo was already taken?
22:13
Yonder Fruit was one that I I really liked.
22:16
Um There's a bunch of them.
22:19
My I can't It's it's worth actually me going through it and maybe sending that Yeah.
22:26
>> the list that I used to have. >> baby. Okay. Free. I'll do it for free. Sounds good.
22:30
But but no, but they were they were all take the list will be all these crazy things that that that have been taken.
22:36
But we did have a porn site that was also a gambling site called gamblesluts. com.
22:43
A little on the nose, but A little on the nose, but we you needed to you we didn't want to explain it too much. So gamblesluts.
22:49
com sort of put it in there.
22:53
Those in the know call it G [ __ ] but okay. Uh yes, that's right.
22:57
Um And uh Oh my gosh, Data Ape was another one.
23:00
We built a whole huge ape.
23:03
[laughter] Um Smote is another one. Smote. That's great.
23:10
That's Smote being like the biblical how God punishes you.
23:12
You were smoted by [laughter] God.
23:16
Um though it has nothing to do with God or biblical stuff. I just like the name.
23:20
Um The The The My biggest regret was that I named the first the the company Cupertino.
23:27
Cuz I That was That was early on in the pilot and it just kind of stuck.
23:29
It's one of these things in the a lot of things in the pilot sometimes linger or vestigial and you you're you live with them.
23:37
I would have changed Cupertino. It was too on the nose.
23:39
I was going to ask about that immediately next because why not just call it Apple?
23:43
Were you worried about a lawsuit or something? Yes. Apple's not a lawsuit. Just come on, Jonathan.
23:50
It's just a piece of fruit.
23:52
>> [laughter] >> You can't You can't copyright fruit.
23:52
Uh Uh no, you're probably right.
23:55
But I I will say and this is a decent way to segue into you wanted to talk about AMC.
24:02
Every other network [clears throat] out there is either owned by a conglomerate or a tech company.
24:07
>> [snorts] >> AMC is the only independent channel independently owned channel on the dial if you can still talk about a dial.
24:12
Um and so that did take balls on their part to to greenlight this thing and to really get behind it.
24:21
And so I I I will just forever be grateful for for them to to have stood up and said, yeah, no, we're we're we're the network actually that can do this.
24:32
Is Cupertino going to be a consistent thing because you have a lot of rich material like Tim Cook just stepped down this week. Yeah.
24:39
Um Are you Are you thinking about headlines right now as you're writing?
24:44
Like do you see Anthropic and Mythos and it's like, oh my god, that's an episode.
24:48
I mean Feel like you're getting rich material every day here.
24:52
I We try not to go from the headlines.
24:54
We try to get make it clear that this And this is this is the truth.
25:01
I I want the tech world to be the backdrop for these characters and that these characters are front and center, which is why so many of the characters are not necessarily in the tech world. They're in the bubble.
25:11
They all live in this bubble and there's no way to avoid the tech world, but there's psychiatrists, there's the private school, there's people who enter the bubble like these two guys who come from DC, Rob Corddry and Andrew Broussard.
25:24
They come in from working for Veteran Affairs trying to get a a square deal for the veterans using some some tech money and that's very difficult for them to to find.
25:31
So it is it isn't just about the tech because I did feel like that was going to just become an office comedy or drama.
25:41
I It was just going to get stuck there and I wanted it to be about more a reflection of the 7 and 1/2 billion users of tech than the people actually necessarily in tech.
25:55
There is no Elon or, you know, Steve Jobs.
26:00
There's no We are reality adjacent in that regard.
26:02
So it is It's It's It's a reflection.
26:06
It's It's It's a We're holding up a mirror in a lot of ways to the people who run tech, but also to the users themselves and just saying, is this what we want?
26:14
Is this in fact what we want?
26:16
And and you know, we're we are entrusting these these tech people with basically how human beings communicate with each other and engage with one another and it is um a strange thing given that so many of them are notoriously bad with communication.
26:35
So it [clears throat] it all is just a way of saying, let's not dehumanize anymore.
26:40
If we can, can we put a stop to the dehumanization because that's what we're doing.
26:45
because that's what we're doing. And it is uh to me a crime against humanity and I I don't know how else to put that, but Yeah, I think it was smart to go beyond the office drama and tech because whether you want to call it a network of accomplices that are all out there saying yes in our own way to these
27:07
people or otherwise, you know, it really does go deeper and these people have folks around them who, you know, essentially allow this stuff to happen um including members of the media and I think one of my favorite scenes that almost reminded me of the scene in Billy Madison where they're all having a pool party. >> [laughter]
27:27
>> [laughter] >> And it reveals that another thing that is included here is not just the adults, but the kids as well.
27:33
And I feel like there was this omnipresent theme of like kind of alienation between the adults and the kids.
27:38
And there's a moment where one kid is asking another kid, how do you have a phone?
27:42
The other says, doesn't every parent here work on tech stuff?
27:45
And the other says, arms dealers don't give their kids land mines.
27:48
Um That That was a banger and you see this all the time.
27:53
I mean, I used to work for Evan Spiegel at Snapchat and he's kind of, you know, notorious for not letting his kids use devices.
28:02
Um What did you make of that?
28:03
I I I think it is important to put it into the context of if this is a If this is a If you consider this a danger to your child, then what the [ __ ] are you doing >> giving it to mine?
28:14
Think Think Think a little bit past the end of your nose.
28:19
You know, or or the end of, you know, or your just just your family unit. Think about others.
28:23
You know, if if you really think it's a danger, then what are we doing?
28:27
Then put an age limit on it.
28:27
Put You know, There are just It It It is a incredible thing how an industry can crop up and it is because of the money. Let's be honest.
28:39
It's because of the money that no regulations really exist that have any teeth to them.
28:42
And we we make fun of this a little bit as the season goes on.
28:46
But I In terms of the kids, they are the stakes of our show, ultimately.
28:52
They are uh They're both the object of you know, the the prime demo of this of of tech of of of how we how how they gather this data is Kids are the obviously the most fruitful uh source of data and also, you know, I'm going to be dead sooner than these kids are.
29:18
So my my data is less valuable.
29:20
They can They I'm sorry to say this, Ellis, but you know, TK is a >> [laughter] >> It's crazy age to start putting them on the map like that, putting them on the grid because they will have Kids born today are going to have this this data footprint that goes from birth until whenever.
29:39
And so all of their >> Until the singularity.
29:42
That's what we say here, Jonathan.
29:43
Until the singularity, yeah. [laughter] Yeah. Yeah, here's hoping.
29:47
I I mean, look, I I am [snorts] definitely a bit of a Luddite. I always have been.
29:54
Um I'm I'm at a age where I think I can look at what's happening to youth and I can look at what's happening where I've been in the past, sort of at that crossroads.
30:05
And um I do recognize that there's been some extraordinary innova- innovations in tech.
30:13
But um I think that we are just like you know, I have I always have this image of us backing up out of a a driveway, a blind driveway, hoping against hope that a Cybertruck doesn't come and mow us down as we pull out into the road.
30:31
It's just this blind hope that we have left at this point.
30:35
And a an incredible sense of um learned helplessness as well is is is is fueling this. It's like what do we do?
30:45
I mean, I'm doing this this show and I I think >> do you hope there is some message to the tech folks watching it? Sure.
30:52
Yes, but do I have do I am I counting on anything? No. Do I No, of course not.
30:59
I mean, it's it is it is the protest of the week, right?
31:01
Um but yes, sometimes it sometimes it goes through.
31:06
So, you just want an invite to the pool party. That's right.
31:08
[laughter] Yeah, why didn't I get invited?
31:10
I'm going to I'm going to do an entire show about it.
31:13
Um No, but I do think that there is uh I hope so.
31:17
I of course I hope so, yeah.
31:19
I and I think that it is important to humanize them, for them to realize their own humanity, for them to realize that they are fallible creatures.
31:25
That fallibility is not to be feared and not to be shunned, but is it it is in fact what makes us great ultimately.
31:33
We learn from fallibility.
31:36
We are humbled by fallibility.
31:40
And it is something that that for too long and and now at a at a level that is beyond my comprehension.
31:49
It is it has gone into the realm of the absurd.
31:51
They have denied fallibility entirely.
31:54
They have so bought into the idea of that certainty is in fact uh the way to look at the world.
32:04
That that one should have a worldview and stick to it and not apologize ever.
32:12
And I have since I was a child, since I was listening into these therapy sessions as a kid, whatever whatever thing that has remained consistent for me is that I've always distrusted people who communicate through certainty. Mm.
32:26
Be- because we are all prone to [ __ ] up.
32:31
We are Doesn't matter how much money you have in your wallet, you're just as likely to walk around with your fly down or to get hit by a city bus or to [ __ ] your pants from time to time.
32:42
We're all just corporal beings in these meat suits and with brains that betray us constantly that that that are 100% subjective that, you know, can cause delusions, hallucinations.
32:58
And we have to take that into account and it's just it's not in the algorithm.
33:02
It's not in the calculation for a lot of these people.
33:04
Well, on the mirror thing and what you're saying about fallibility, I think the thing that and I've seen this personally in people, the thing that reinforces that um belief that they're infallible is the money.
33:18
And I think that's the thing in the show that you nailed honestly the the truest is how much money has crept into the motivations of all of this and how Silicon Valley may have used to been like the pirate thing.
33:31
It was, you know, counterculture, um underground.
33:35
And now, you know, everyone's talking about insider trading.
33:39
And you really do hear [clears throat] that when you're talking to people off the record.
33:43
Uh >> It's it's They're always talking about their stock price.
33:46
It's the thing they obsess over.
33:48
AI researchers looking at their comp packages.
33:50
Yes, they want to change the world.
33:51
Yes, they think they're ushering AGI, but man, that money is great.
33:55
And it really does tend to cloud things.
33:57
And I just think you nailed that, frankly.
33:59
Um and it's something that I hope I think it's the thing the industry will hopefully like look at the closest.
34:05
I think they may have trouble with, you know, tech is bad or or any of these other things, but I think I think the money piece is the thing that people could reflect more on. Yeah, perhaps so.
34:14
I mean, it it is uh it's impossible to uh truly capture the the extent of the money, especially I love my network.
34:24
I love AMC, but they don't have the biggest budgets.
34:28
And we did what we could to present a moneyed world and a moneyed ideology um and a set that uh conveys that, but there's there were there there's limitations Yeah, they were like, "Uh the private island in Hawaii, uh we can't really afford that this season, Jonathan. Let's see season 2. Yeah." Zuck's Hawaii compound? Yeah.
34:52
>> That we all want to see.
34:52
We have a really great island compound uh episode 5. Yes.
34:57
>> That uh yeah, we got helicopters for that one. Okay.
34:59
All right, so now you've got the budget. You're [laughter] good.
35:03
Um But the helicopters it's funny because we it was one of these instances where it's like, well, I assume we're going to have to VFX the [ __ ] out of this.
35:13
That's going to be expensive.
35:14
And then we actually like, all right, let's just find out how much are helicopters.
35:17
They were remarkably affordable.
35:20
It's like analog is still is still sitting there waiting for us.
35:23
It's still cheaper and it's it's just Does anybody >> [laughter] >> I mean, on the money on the money piece, I was curious if you found this out on your research.
35:32
I feel like Silicon Valley's very unusual in that everyone is so rich, but it's not it's not culturally appropriate to flex your wealth.
35:40
And and it's not like media, right?
35:43
It's not like the Succession world.
35:44
It's not like New York or really any other industry where someone can be a billionaire and they look like, you know, they shop it like Dillard's.
35:51
Like it's it's very unusual.
35:55
>> [laughter] >> Yeah, Zach Galifianakis's character is is our only billionaire in the in the cast in the story.
36:02
Um and we schlumped him up.
36:04
He he schlumps up nicely, actually.
36:06
Zach is a very good He's a natural schlumper. There he is. Yeah. >> Being schlumpy.
36:13
Um uh but it's it's true.
36:14
It's it there's a it's there's a funny byproduct to the to not wanting to flex your wealth, which is that a lot of philanthropy has suffered, too.
36:24
It's not like the, you know, Andrew Carnegie built all the libraries and put his name on it.
36:29
Rockefeller's name is everywhere in universities and hospitals.
36:31
You don't really see that as much.
36:33
Um with with this with this new money that's that's come through over the past few years.
36:40
A little bit here and there starting to, but it is it is different.
36:47
And it is a bit more about the Hawaii compound than it is about uh a new wing uh and the cancer hospital.
36:56
Um A lot of it I think is probably because they feel that certainty that they are doing good.
37:04
They have convinced themselves of that goodness in some way.
37:06
It's such a strange tension, isn't it?
37:07
I mean, they say they want to make the world a better place and then they go to the data mining, they make uh AI workplace apps that accelerate white-collar workers.
37:18
And I mean, I really do believe it's like a fantasy that they all tell themselves about making the world a better place when in reality a lot of the stuff that's the biggest has arguably uh net net, you know, I mean, you look at the happiness scores and the research about all that stuff.
37:35
Uh so much of it has made things worse and the average person isn't isn't really doing much better.
37:42
>> I think it's on posters now uh for our show that um it's a it's quoting a line from from I think it's the fourth episode that um you know, sure tech changed the world, but so did the bubonic plague.
37:54
You know, it is it is a major adjust- [laughter] I know.
37:59
I know, but you know, you got to hit hard sometimes.
38:01
You wrote that in the shower and you said, "God, I'm good."
38:05
>> [laughter] >> It was it was funny because it really was it's a speech that that this character Anush gives, which is I suppose more than anything my the the summation of of my philosophy on it, which or my vexing feelings, which is that um you know, they set out to to to make it a more tolerant world.
38:31
Um clearly that has not happened.
38:33
Um that we were going to be good for kids and children. Provably false.
38:39
Um that we were going to uh help things like climate change.
38:41
A data center the data centers use more energy than the entire aviation industry combined.
38:51
Um It is, you know, yes, we can get Q-tips delivered to our door by 3:00 and I'm sure that there's some, you know, many medical advances, but they haven't exactly cured cancer, either.
39:00
So, it is it is a let's call it at best a mixed bag, uh being generous.
39:04
You know happy I am when I hear from an ed tech startup that wants to work with me?
39:11
I'm like, [laughter] "Please." You exist. Count.
39:15
I have a very good storyline for you for a future season that may or may not be based on a current thing that's real that I'm reporting out.
39:21
A major tech company CEO becomes so AGI pilled that he and his uh most senior team decide that only they will run the company in the future and they will uh go through the process of having their many, many employees uh secretly train their replacement AIs.
39:37
And then they will use the AIs to lay them off and the company will be run by few dozen people.
39:47
That may or may not be happening right now.
39:48
I'm sure McKinsey's like what a great idea Alex.
39:52
>> [laughter] >> Yeah, seriously. You got it right on it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
39:56
It It It always frightens me a little bit the more we think about these these crazy things that these guys can do that it It It It has already happened on on a couple of occasions things that we wrote about for season one that are now real and we didn't thankfully have anything to do with it but it is Look some some of them are are things like the VA storyline.
40:23
We had certainly no idea when when I wrote that part of it um did not know that Trump was going to be elected didn't know that those was going to happen didn't know that 300,000 VA employees were going to be laid off that the entire mental health department was going to be turned into bot therapy and as you go forward you'll you'll you'll see these storylines play
40:49
out and it does feel like we're responding to the headlines but we really weren't it really we were actually ahead of it and I don't know that I to some extent you think yeah yeah we were ahead of it but then you're it's an it's a it's an odd feeling it's it's it's like you pump your fist and then you're like wait >> It's like did I make this happen? >> [laughter]
41:08
>> [laughter] >> I will this into existence.
41:12
Dude there there was a there was a wildfire in the third episode Duncan and Lily Lucy Punch plays Lily she's [ __ ] amazing.
41:21
The two of them their house one of their houses burns down in the wildfire and I wrote it and then there were wildfires in LA and then my house burned down. Oh man.
41:29
>> So so karma's a Oh my god.
41:32
Karma's a river in in Egypt or something like that.
41:35
>> why you're in New York?
41:35
Are you are you going to move back to LA or That that is in fact why I'm in New York.
41:39
I mean by with a lot of ping pong ping ping ping what's the [ __ ] ping ponging Ping pong we'll call it ping ponging.
41:47
I was actually going for pinballing Yes.
41:52
[laughter] Well sorry Brian.
41:54
Yeah a lot of pinballing back and forth we shot in Vancouver and then we we wound up in New York is the upshot.
41:58
That brings me nicely to I actually attended your LA premiere.
42:03
Didn't get to say hi to you there but it was very cool.
42:05
Saw Bob Odenkirk there were a lot of great people there in attendance supporting you and people from the AMC family.
42:11
And yeah AMC is just a fascinating company to me.
42:16
They feel like they have this old school Hollywood approach and swag that feels increasingly out of date and refreshing where it's betting on human beings to tell original stories and making bets actual bets in a time when Hollywood feels like everyone is scared to make bets and I'm sure you pitched a bunch of people.
42:41
I imagine talking to the big streamers that are all owned by tech conglomerates made this show a little dicey to pitch but I'm curious about that process.
42:48
Yeah did you did you talk to Apple did you talk to Amazon was it always going to be AMC or It was always going to be AMC.
42:53
AMC or It was always going to be AMC. I was I was I was in a a deal with AMC so and the the the president of the company Dan McDermott he he came to he grew up in Silicon Valley and he came to me with the with the thought of like maybe you should consider you know something in this space and at the time I really didn't know very much about tech and but I was very increasingly curious about the personalities around it and
43:25
as is my want I'm more interested in the people below the top of the pyramid the people who want to get to the top of the pyramid the wannabes and the also-rans are more interesting to me there's a more of a desperation there to me
43:41
um you know as much as I loved Succession those guys were at the top what made it the most interesting was that they were in a dinosaur company and were sort of fighting for that survival but they were very much the top of their
43:55
their game and and had been historically you know their family was an empire and so I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I think I think the truth is a lot of
44:06
people say I can develop an app and I can become one of these people I can get to that top of that that rung I can have a you know three commas in my in my you know valuation and it's obviously doesn't work out for 90 I don't know
44:26
what the percentage is a lot of them or you know they they sort of fizzle um and so I I like I like that I mean that that is to me what what the fallibility is is is partially about and it may be that when those guys get to the top of that pyramid because
44:44
they've seen so many you know casualties along the way they do feel that sense of certainty and that sense of righteousness and semi-deityness that you know just their own success justifies exploiting that success. I think we have
44:59
I think we have a venture capital firm name for season two three commas capital.
45:04
You could see the the hats with the three commas on it.
45:09
I I think people go ape [ __ ] for that.
45:11
I believe Silicon Valley the TV show did a three comma What? No very Yes.
45:18
There had to be pressure for you Jonathan from the success of Silicon Valley and people wanting a reboot to that for so long and then you doing this is kind of the next Silicon Valley show type show.
45:29
Did you think about that a lot or did you did you study it?
45:33
>> was not I was genuinely was not aware of the of the desire other than my own like yeah wouldn't that be fun.
45:38
As a as a huge fan of the show I mean I I love I love the show I really really did I think um it was thrilling it was thrilling to watch it had that early Silicon Valley optimism fueling it that was I think the big difference is things have curdled somewhat and I think our show um reflects that to to some people's distaste you know that it's the the characters are are too you know quote unquote unlikable.
46:09
um I I I can't disagree more um Yeah I I don't I don't buy that yeah. Yeah.
46:14
But you know there there people that are that way you know my my father hated Succession because of that.
46:21
Did you have you had people in tech reach out since the show premiered and tell you their real thoughts about it?
46:29
We well we did screenings we did a screening in San Francisco I didn't attend it but um Billy Magnussen did Simon Helberg and they told me about how everybody was coming up to them saying wow you really you really nailed it and um there was you know there's flattery in sat in satire you know it's it's why Trump watches the late night shows there's a there's a it doesn't matter it doesn't doesn't matter who you are
46:58
being satirized is like oh well I guess I've made it now you know I mean it really is a kind of a nod to the king you know and it goes back to whether it's Voltaire or or Stephen Colbert you know you you are you are making fun of the powers that be and that by definition you know validates their own sense of I am incredibly powerful you know they're they're I'm worthy of satire. um
47:27
um So I think that there is that that that sense of um uh a kind of pleasure in watching your own industry your own community be taken to task.
47:41
Well so tech is is definitely not known for its sense of humor um at all and I'm just curious like >> [laughter] >> a lot of times a lot of times they just dismiss it as well or at least in the in the past phases of a lot of these founders.
47:57
Do you think there's anybody that can really hold these folks accountable these days? Man I hope so. I hope so.
48:06
I do think that there's there's no other industry that we can point to in his in in in in the history of of of humankind that managed to place themselves in everybody's pant pocket and that we just in our quotidian existence interact with a thousand times a day.
48:29
I mean nothing else is like that and so taking that to what what what was the verb you used was it taking down or taking to task what was Hold them accountable yeah. Called them accountable. I don't know.
48:45
I really hope so but um Cuz they used to get pissed off when media would take them down and now they just buy or make their own media companies.
48:55
Well that is what autocracies do that's what dictatorships do they don't they don't care for truths that that they don't they don't that are not that are not flattering.
49:04
um It's upsetting to see somebody like Alex Karp who I think clearly was a smart man and a good thinker.
49:17
I I I haven't read through this manifesto that just came out but it was flagged to me and it looks quite frightening and seems to be advocating for jingoism and xenophobia and I don't know just tolerance being a a fool's game empathy being a a [ __ ] thing to to have.
49:40
You'll see in your in the third episode empathy is also a big Well, I guess in in the second episode um One of them named their daughter empathy.
49:49
>> [laughter] >> So that was No, but it's an insult.
49:51
It's a it's an insult that that that Duncan >> Oh.
49:54
Duncan takes a takes a diagnostic test to to to be to find out if he his own suspicion that he is neurodivergent because of course all of the the big tech thinkers are um neurodivergent uh famously.
50:09
And so you know being a little divergent in the neuro is what makes them so good at telling us how to shop and think and and stuff is the direct quote um from the you know outside looking in.
50:21
And then he does a diagnostic test and he's he's in fact not neurodivergent and the test showed uh hallmarks of empathy.
50:33
>> [laughter] >> He takes that as uh the worst news he's heard all day, huh? Yeah, yeah. >> Genius.
50:38
Yeah, emp- empathy is just pathetic without the the prefix.
50:41
It's it's it's just um you know, it's it's not it's a terrible slur.
50:48
>> even read the Marc Andreessen No, >> introspection is sin uh interview yet.
50:53
>> No, it it it it all it all was written in uh 2024.
50:56
So um or just about 20 I think that episode was still still in in 2024.
51:02
So yeah, it was it was uh I guess sort of following the logic of the psychology of of of where it might go.
51:13
Um I again, I take no great pleasure in in predicting that, but it just it it felt right.
51:19
It felt like yes, no, this would be in fact what what would be the most upsetting thing to find out is that you're an empathetic person and you work as a CEO in tech.
51:31
Jonathan, did you have to create an X account for the show? No, I'm not online.
51:34
I'm not I'm not on social.
51:36
>> So you're you're getting a read out of things.
51:39
>> I'm not I'm I'm online, but I'm not on social media.
51:41
And and does that extend into the writers' room?
51:43
Do you have rules about the kinds of tools people can use like And I depend on them sometimes. Okay.
51:49
I I very often depend on them to to bring me stuff that they that they find, but I don't encourage them to.
51:57
>> you printouts of tweets and you guys are workshopping them and I I do try to uh give certain basic lessons in terms of um don't accept cookies and uh try to get a VPN if you can and things like that.
52:11
>> [laughter] >> But um I don't uh I don't set rules about social media and What about AI?
52:15
Do you set rules about AI?
52:17
With those AMC budgets got to be tempting.
52:20
Or even just like the writing process. Like I'm curious.
52:24
I mean, do you are you like no, we are raw dogging this thing from from start to completion or We raw dog it because it's better that way. >> Yeah, sure.
52:32
Um and uh this is a a tone that I think AI is not capable and hopefully never will be uh of of emulating, but um or or imitating.
52:46
I don't know what what the right verb is.
52:47
But uh AI can be useful in terms of like what how many generators does a data center require?
52:57
How much how much power, how much water, you know, things like that that are not not always you you always have to double-check with AI especially with like something like water is a controversial topic when it comes to data centers.
53:09
You got to what you know, different different uh sources.
53:13
It depends on where it is obviously if it's in Arizona versus you know, Canada.
53:17
But um we do that can be useful and that can be a quick uh tool for that.
53:22
So I will cop to uh using it for for such things.
53:28
Which is where which is what what I think it's at its best.
53:32
I mean, I think it's a great search engine.
53:33
It's a you know, but it's it's going to get worse because it's going to need to make money and it's going to need to bring advertising into it etc.
53:42
It's going to it's going to be slop soon all across the board.
53:46
AI slop is going to refer to the entire process sooner or later.
53:51
But look, I do I'm not against tech.
53:51
I just I think that it does need to live up to some of these standards.
53:56
You know, if you're going to say we can cure cancer Especially if you're going to say it.
54:01
>> If you're going to say if you're going to say we we we're going to cure cancer like this like Sam Altman has then then show me something.
54:07
Earn the right to be in my phone and in my life.
54:09
Earn that job in a sense.
54:12
You know, you don't hire somebody just because they come in and say these outrageous claims with no proof and no idea how they're going to get there exactly, but they figure that they'll get there just on their moxie along the way.
54:24
You would never hire that person.
54:26
You would not invite that person into your life.
54:28
>> Your plumber's not like I'm going to fix your skin care routine.
54:30
I'm going to make your skin glowing.
54:33
>> you wish they'd just be honest like I want to be liked and for people to think I'm funny on my boat. And that's why I'm here.
54:40
>> [laughter] >> Well, um we're about to run out of time, but I have one more question for you.
54:43
As a as a tagline writer, I just absolutely love the tagline on this poster behind you move fast and break people. How did that come to be?
54:51
That's our that's our terrific marketing department uh who came up with that.
54:55
Um mine was my my my recommendation was we're so [ __ ] Um but um uh maybe next season. Yeah, maybe next season.
55:05
Uh Jonathan, where can people find the show?
55:07
AMC Plus if you don't mind.
55:09
If you're still listening, then you have some interest in this topic and you should probably watch it without commercials. AMC Plus is great.
55:16
I think it's on sale uh 17 bucks for the season on on on your Amazons and Apples.
55:21
But it is it is on AMC linear as well.
55:24
It's just you got diaper commercials interrupting some terrific acting by this terrific cast.
55:31
>> there's a synergy there between tech execs and and diapers.
55:35
>> [laughter] [gasps] >> Uh your words.
55:36
Jonathan, we really appreciate your time.
55:38
We'll let you get back to your writers' room.
55:39
Uh we're looking forward to the rest of the season and season 2.
55:42
Uh thanks for for taking the time. I really appreciate it.
55:46
And that's it for the interview.
55:46
Stay tuned after the break for Alex and my key takeaways, rants, and even some ravings. See you in a minute.
55:56
>> [music] >> All right, man.
55:57
What do we think of Jonathan?
55:59
It's so good to have a non-founder on the show for once.
56:02
I feel like we should be doing this more.
56:03
I mean, talking to highly opinionated writers in entertainment makes for a good show, does it not? Oh, yeah.
56:11
>> [laughter] >> As opposed to a scaredy-cat public company founder who doesn't want to go off script at all.
56:16
I feel like content people know that if you don't have opinions, no one's listening.
56:20
Yeah, and he definitely does. And the show does.
56:24
And I don't necessarily agree with all of them.
56:27
I think sometimes he's a little too on the nose, but I think in general it's an important show for people in the industry to to watch because I do think it shows where things are actually at right now in terms of how people like Jonathan feel about tech.
56:43
And I think Jonathan's a good proxy for the outside of the bubble view that we don't often talk about on the show that we should probably talk about more.
56:51
And as we discussed holding up a mirror in an industry where people are proudly not introspective, maybe it can make people think a little bit more about themselves and their compounds and their ayahuasca trips and their fleet of butlers and cars ferrying them to and from their therapist's house. Oh, man.
57:15
We didn't even talk about the ayahuasca. Have you done ayahuasca? No, I have not. I haven't either. I'm scared. No, I'm scared.
57:21
[laughter] I've been offered the experience and I'm I'm scared, man.
57:26
I uh it just seems too intense. Yeah.
57:27
I mean, I'm always down for interesting new experiences, but I think once you have kids, just taking any type of bodily risk just feels kind of silly.
57:36
Uh so yeah, I've I've been avoiding things of that sort since the kids were born.
57:44
Are you going to finish the show? I think I will.
57:46
I think I absolutely will.
57:48
Um I really enjoyed the first episode.
57:48
I feel like it's always a question with episode 1's where are they just trying to set up all the chess pieces and nothing interesting's happening yet?
58:00
Like that's how I felt about the new For All Mankind season.
58:02
I watched episode 1 and I'm like all right, let's say we're just moving the test pieces around here getting them into place.
58:12
I'm like that's just not enough for me anymore.
58:15
And I feel like first episode of The Audacity, things actually happened and it ended with a really good almost like cliffhanger um about some little under the table quid pro quo deal insidery tradingy that's going to be happening and it definitely makes you want to watch further, but um yeah, I guess I liked the characters more than I expected to as like a Silicon Valley satire.
58:37
And Jonathan gets into that a bit as well.
58:40
I think even though they're all flawed, it's funny and I think they're definitely more relatable than the folks on Succession, which he was a part of. >> Yeah. We didn't get into this.
58:48
We didn't have time, but I'd be curious to know uh you know, the the green lighting process.
58:52
I mean, the fact that AMC gave this a second season before the first episode dropped, I think shows that they have a lot of belief in what Jonathan's doing and that they think this will be a hit.
59:05
And I think it will be probably more of a hit when it's uh frankly off of AMC Plus because that's a thing that uh you know, if I didn't have screeners am I getting an AMC Plus subscription for one show? I don't know.
59:16
I imagine a lot of people are having that uh dilemma as they think about you know, that.
59:20
And that does feel kind of like a a version of like releasing a show from 5 years ago where there was like a different streaming app for every new show, right?
59:30
And things have kind of consolidated and it's cool that AMC is going at it, you know, on their own and they're still trying to build their own audience and uh they obviously need to, but I imagine if this thing was on Netflix, it would it would blow up.
59:43
>> I'm not even aware if I have AMC plus.
59:46
Is that bundled into something that I already have?
59:47
They're all kind of mix and matching and acquiring and unacquiring each other these days.
59:53
>> you got to get it, man.
59:53
I think it's one of those like, you know, Paramount Plus type things.
59:57
Uh there's just no way around it.
59:59
I'm also happy that the new show, while Jonathan says he loved Silicon Valley, I mean it's also very different, you know, it definitely feels more in the vein of something like Succession, whereas I feel like Silicon Valley felt a lot more kind of like a screwball quan uh comedy that just takes place in Silicon Valley, but I like that the one through line is that everybody's trying to make the world a better place better than anybody else.
1:00:23
>> [laughter] >> If you recall that if you recall that quote from uh Gavin Belson in Silicon Valley.
1:00:28
That's one of my favorite LA sightings so far, seeing Gavin Belson at the Whole Foods parking lot.
1:00:32
Gave him a little nod several years ago.
1:00:35
Unbelievable performance.
1:00:35
You remember that, don't you? Of course.
1:00:37
I mean, I want to rewatch the show now.
1:00:39
Yeah, especially with Audacity out.
1:00:43
Uh yeah, no that was great.
1:00:43
Uh I guess we should acknowledge that we've changed the format of the show, right?
1:00:47
>> [laughter] >> No, not acknowledge.
1:00:50
>> not acknowledge, but yeah, we're trying something new and leading with the interview, leading with the conversation and then chatting about about stuff after. I don't know.
1:01:00
Uh I feel like this is going well.
1:01:01
I mean, that's how video game reviews do it these days.
1:01:03
They do the review and then they have the debrief after and they're on the cutting edge of storytelling, so yeah, we'll give it a go.
1:01:12
I mean, it's interesting.
1:01:12
Long story short, I think we both believe that we're having good, interesting, fresh conversations, {quote} {unquote}, on here, but in a world where when things are discovered, let's say on YouTube, if we start with the conversations about other stuff, but the thumbnail is about the person, it feels like a little bit of bait and switch.
1:01:34
And it's just kind of inevitable, you know, you got to orient the show as much as you may not want to toward delivering on that thumbnails as quickly as possible and hopefully we show more of our differentiation through the questions we ask and the debates that ensue on the show.
1:01:53
>> [laughter] >> Yeah, so apologies if you really loved Allison I chatting at the beginning, you were one of the few, but we love you and you know, YouTube made us do this, so blame YouTube.
1:02:03
Well, tweet or zeet or however you want to communicate with us, let us know what you think. Um valuable input.
1:02:14
We're going to listen to the algorithm more, but still valuable input.
1:02:15
It's valuable and please also just like and subscribe and share the show.
1:02:20
I know we say that every week, but feels uh especially pertinent this week as we blow up the format.
1:02:26
Please don't give us one star.
1:02:29
Yeah, I guess the other thing, too, is that as Alex and I are discussing together, you know, it's like we want to talk about the news, but everybody's talking about the news.
1:02:37
It's actually more fun if we talk about the news with the guest >> [laughter] >> than just amongst ourselves and I feel like we get into it a bit on the show this week about current events with Jonathan and and it definitely was was richer having his take as a part of it and that's the kind of thing that they usually aren't talking about on a press tour.
1:02:55
Some executive and I don't know.
1:02:55
I mean, do you feel like most execs are going to play ball and talk about other things?
1:03:00
I mean, as every executive loves to say, I'm not really paying attention to my competitors.
1:03:06
I just am focusing on the product.
1:03:08
But if they really do want to humanize themselves, increase their hiring, investor interest, showing the multi-dimensional person that they are that is a part of the world and not above it, I think is a sure fire way to do that. >> Yeah, I think so.
1:03:24
I think it remains to be seen.
1:03:26
We often talk about if we can get a public company CEO to not say one talking point during the interview, we will have succeeded, so I think it's more difficult with some, but I think we're going to try our damndest and you know, I think like the one like you said, like these execs want to be humanized and you know, you need to actually play ball.
1:03:45
You need to be willing to to talk about things that [laughter] aren't, you know, your PR talking points.
1:03:51
And all you need to know, as we talk about on the show, um my former boss, Evan Spiegel, was always very resistant to doing social, but uh that egg has finally been cracked and he's doing podcasts and even Instagram reels now.
1:04:05
It comes for everyone eventually.
1:04:07
Yeah, it comes for everybody eventually.
1:04:09
It's finally breaking through, but of course and I mean, this is the same thing I talk about with clients.
1:04:12
It's not just going on a podcast that makes you more human and more interesting, is that you actually have to be asked interesting questions and say interesting things.
1:04:24
And I think my hope is that we're able to make that happen here.
1:04:26
It's not just saying, "Hey, we're going to chit-chat about whatever."
1:04:30
It's what you think about a lot of very important topics.
1:04:37
And I absolutely believe that that is a very, very key strategy for showing people who you really are.
1:04:43
Versus if you're only ever talking about your product, it's like why would anyone believe you?
1:04:48
Why would anyone like you?
1:04:50
>> [laughter] >> Forever underrated, I think, to just talk about your opinions.
1:04:53
I mean, you see with like the founder-led communication, it's super hot right now, but I think what's missing from that narrative is the idea that founder-led communication doesn't actually work if you're only talking about yourself.
1:05:04
And this was the playbook that we did at the browser company that people say they're following, but still don't often do, is that we talked about all sorts of things, whether it was the internet or design or the weird incentives of building a browser internally at Google versus doing it independently, different business models, design, company building, all these things.
1:05:23
If you have interesting takes on them, are just as likely to bring someone to you as talking about your new feature.
1:05:29
Well, here's to more of that.
1:05:32
And with that, I guess, yeah, I don't I don't really know how we end this now.
1:05:34
I guess we're >> [snorts] >> we transition, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, to the outro now. Okay, let's do it.
1:05:44
>> [music] >> Well, that was it for this week's show.
1:05:47
Thanks again to Jonathan Glazer from The Audacity for coming on.
1:05:50
Definitely going to be watching the rest of season 1.
1:05:53
Looking forward to season 2.
1:05:53
And if you like this show, don't forget to like and subscribe everywhere you get podcasts. Please do that. We are access.
1:05:59
show online and you can find us in video at accesspod on YouTube.
1:06:04
If you really like this episode, we would love a five-star review or even share with a friend or agent.
1:06:12
Or if you just liked it a little bit, still give it five stars. That'd be great.
1:06:15
You can find my newsletter at sources. news.
1:06:18
And you can find me at hamburger on Twitter and at meaning.
1:06:20
company for your startup storytelling needs.
1:06:22
Access is part of the Vox Media Podcast Network and the show is produced by Hooked Creators. Bye. Bye.